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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Deadly Outbreak; Debate over Interrogations; Bailout Pressure; Human Cloning
Aired April 24, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening everybody.
What could be a very dangerous threat to public health in this country, a deadly outbreak of swine flu in Mexico that has apparently spread into the United States -- this outbreak raising concerns and new questions about this country's ability to deal with a pandemic.
Also, would-be President Al Gore, an Oscar winner, Nobel Prize winner, raising his rhetoric over global warming to a new level, this time comparing global warming legislation to two landmark events -- we'll examine whether it's hype or good politics.
And more good news tonight on the economy, new indications that the slump in the housing market could be nearing an end, new evidence perhaps that pessimists who have been predicting depression have been throughout plain wrong.
We begin tonight with a massive flu outbreak in Mexico that appears to have spread into the United States. The Centers for Disease Control tonight say it may be too late to contain this outbreak. Mexican government officials say the previously unknown strain of swine flu has killed as many as 60 people.
The government of Mexico today closed public buildings trying to prevent the spread of this outbreak, but the virus may have already crossed the border into the United States. U.S. health officials are linking the virus to at least eight flu cases in Texas and California. Casey Wian has our report from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mexican health officials closed schools and universities indefinitely Friday to stop the rapid spread of a deadly swine flu virus that's killed at least 60 and sickened nearly 1,000. The majority of the deaths occurred within the past three weeks near Mexico City where some people are now covering their faces with masks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Dangerous, just dangerous and they don't have any information.
WIAN: Two victims were from northern Baja, California. In the United States six cases of swine flu in southern California and two in Texas are perplexing health officials because they involve people with no known recent exposure to pigs.
DR. WILMA WOOTEN, SAN DIEGO COUNTY PUBLIC HEALTH: We don't know what the source of the virus is.
WIAN: Each of those victims aged 9 to 54 has recovered. The Centers for Disease Control says at least one case involved a person who recently traveled to Mexico. The CDC says preliminary tests indicate the Mexican virus is the same as that found in victims in the United States.
DR. RICHARD BESSER, ACTING DIR., CDC: We do not have enough information to fully assess the health threat posed by this swine flu virus. However, scientists around the world continue to monitor the virus and take its threats seriously.
WIAN: The CDC is not recommending travel restrictions to either Mexico, Texas or California at this time. It says it's too early to determine if a vaccine should be developed. U.S. and Canadian health officials ask doctors to look for flu symptoms especially among recent visitors to Mexico, they include President Obama.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has the president been told of any risk to him or any people traveling with him when they went to Mexico City?
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: None that I'm aware of.
WIAN: Swine flu is normally transmitted to humans through direct contact with pigs, but not from eating pork. The CDC says there have been some previous cases of human-to-human transmission.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The CDC is recommending that people, businesses and public officials begin preparing just in case the swine flu outbreak does turn into a pandemic, which would mean the virus is spreading rapidly across different populations. Meanwhile the World Health Organization so far has not raised its pandemic threat level, which stands at three on a scale of six. The WHO (ph) says the world is now closer to an influenza pandemic than at any time since 1968 -- Lou.
DOBBS: OK, Casey, thank you very much -- Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.
In the past, the Centers for Disease Control have reported on average one human swine flu case in the United States every one to two years. But from December 2005 through February of this year, the CDC reporting 12 cases of humans with swine flu and that was before this outbreak in Mexico that apparently has spread to both California and Texas.
This latest outbreak raising new concerns about the possibility, as Casey Wian just reported, of another global flu pandemic. The 1918 flu outbreak affected between 20 and 40 percent of the world's population. The global death toll from the pandemic estimated that at least 15 million people, according to the CDC.
In the United States alone, some 675,000 people died from the 1918 pandemic. A flu pandemic in 1957 killed 70,000 people in the United States and one to two million people killed worldwide. Three decades later, in 1987, a handful of swine flu cases were reported in Fort Dix, New Jersey and that outbreak was quickly contained; health officials attributing only one death to the virus at that time.
Later in the broadcast I'll be talking with a leading official from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who will tell us just how serious this outbreak is, the level of the threat to the United States, and whether it can in fact be contained.
Turning to the political and legal showdown now in Washington, D.C., over so-called harsh interrogations of terrorists -- the Pentagon today declared it will release hundreds of photographs from investigations into alleged prisoner abuse by U.S. military personnel -- this after a lawsuit by the ACLU, the decision to release those photographs could add to a mounting controversy over the interrogations by CIA officers. Ed Henry reports now from the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as you noted, the Obama administration's decision to release these hundreds of photos that allegedly show abuse by U.S. personnel at prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan could spark yet another Abu Ghraib type scandal, you remember the scandal that caused so much difficulty around the world during the Bush administration especially on top of the administration's release last week of those Bush era memos, justifying the enhanced interrogation techniques that were used in the Bush years.
This is only angering conservatives even more. You have Republican leaders like John Boehner of Ohio charging that these policies add up to making the country less safe. White House spokesman Robert Gibbs today pushing back hard on that charge, saying that because of these various lawsuits out there, the court decisions, it was inevitable the documents would come out anyway and Gibbs insisted that the president's policies ultimately will make the country safer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That's why the president has acted the way he has to close Guantanamo Bay, to end the use of enhanced interrogation techniques and to reach out and change our image around the world on his first two trips abroad. I think you'll see the president continue to do that because that doesn't make us weaker. It makes us stronger in pursuing what's in our national interests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now the White House at this point is still resisting Democratic calls from fellow Democrats in their parties saying that they want to have an independent panel to investigate all these various allegations flying around. That could lead to more trouble for this White House -- I spoke today to Democratic strategist Paul Begala who says he believes the White House should give in to calls for an independent panel because in the end it's going to start overshadowing in the next 100 days and beyond the president's -- the rest of his domestic agenda and national security agenda if he's dealing with this drum beat of allegations day after day after day, Lou.
DOBBS: And Ed to -- just to be clear, we have seen what one can argue and a number of critics have, a number of reversals this week, where does the president stand right now on the prosecution of former Bush administration officials?
HENRY: There have certainly been some confusing signals from this White House as we have been reporting this week. Where they stand right now is that they say they want to leave it exactly where the president said it on Tuesday in terms of leaving the door open to potential prosecutions if Attorney General Eric Holder believes that the law was broken -- that they're going to leave that up to them. That's why they're resisting calls for an independent panel to investigate this. They're also resisting calls for a special prosecutor to be named -- to investigate all of this. They're basically saying that it's left in the hands of the attorney general -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry from the White House -- thank you, Ed.
HENRY: Thank you.
DOBBS: Security and intelligence officials say the CIA used waterboarding on only three terrorists, three al Qaeda terrorists. The three included Abu al Raheem al Masouri (ph). He is the first person charged with the attack on the USS Cole back in 2000, in which 17 of our sailors were killed.
The CIA also water-boarded suspected al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah (ph) -- it happened at least 83 times in August of 2002 and interrogators also used waterboarding against Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (ph) 183 times. He is the suspected mastermind of the September 11th attacks. A Justice Department memo saying the interrogation produced details of a plot for a similar attack that was prevented against Los Angeles.
Senator John McCain today blasted the Obama administration for even considering prosecutions of former Bush administration officials. Senator McCain, who opposes torture, said any prosecutions would set what he called a terrible precedent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: It's-time to bring closure. We know about it. We know that in my view that it was wrong to do. But to now say that you're going to tell lawyers that they're going to be prosecuted criminally for the best advice even if it was bad advice that they gave the president of the United States (INAUDIBLE) to my mind sets a terrible precedent for the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Republicans for their part say there is a serious risk. Democrats would launch a witch-hunt against everyone who served in the national security positions in the Bush administration including the former president himself.
A security alert in Washington today led to the evacuation of Capitol Hill, a lockdown at the White House. Capitol Hill police ordering the evacuation after a light aircraft flew into restricted air space -- the security alert ended minutes later when F-16 jets and Coast Guard helicopters intercepted the plane and ordered the pilot to land at an airport in Maryland. It turned out the pilot had a problem with his navigation system and became disoriented.
Still ahead here, a powerful senator demanding an investigation into charges that the U.S. government coerced Bank of America CEO Kenneth Lewis to hide massive losses.
And we have some more good news for you on the economy, good news that some news organizations aren't reporting. We'll have that for you here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Federal government today announcing it's giving General Motors another $2 billion of taxpayer money -- the government loaning General Motors now $15 billion. GM facing a deadline of June 1st in which it must come up with a restructuring plan. It's expected to abandon, by the way, the Pontiac brand and other slow selling units as part of the restructuring. General Motors has already announced plans to temporarily close 13 of its North American plants for much of the summer.
There is good news today on the automobile industry, however, and our economy. Ford Motor, the only car company not to receive government help, today reporting better than expected results. Ford reporting a loss of almost $1.5 billion in the first quarter -- it is on track to break even or even make a profit in 2011, according to company officials.
Meanwhile the latest report on new home sales indicates the slump in the housing market may be nearing an end. The government reporting sales declined only slightly in March by just 0.6 percent while the inventory of new homes plummeted.
And in the financial sector American Express also reporting better results than expected. It did have a first quarter profit of 437 million, three times higher than some forecast. The top Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, Senator Richard Shelby today called for an investigation into the merger between Bank of America and Merrill Lynch.
This after Bank of America CEO Kenneth Lewis testified that the federal government had coerced him to keep quiet about billions of dollars of losses at Merrill Lynch. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and then Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson insist they did not pressure Lewis to hide those losses -- Kitty Pilgrim with our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A round of denials today. Bank of America CEO Ken Lewis blames Fed Chairman Bernanke and then Treasury Secretary Paulson for threatening to fire him if he backed out of the merger with Merrill Lynch. He says they told him to keep quite about the rapidly escalating losses Merrill would face in the fourth quarter of last year, losses that would ultimately reach $15 billion.
According to a letter from New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, Paulson said he made the threat, quote, "at the request of Fed Chairman Bernanke." Paulson has since denied that saying Chairman Bernanke did not instruct him to indicate any specific action the Fed might take.
The Federal Reserve denies also threatening Lewis. No one at the Federal Reserve advised Ken Lewis or Bank of America on any question of disclosure. The board of Bank of America denied in minutes of their meeting that they caved in to government pressure to keep the merger on track.
Cuomo's letter says that during the whole episode, the SEC whose job is to protect investors appears to have been kept in the dark. It says Paulson agreed the SEC was not in the loop. So while the big guns of government and business accuse one another today, securities attorneys point out the average American has been stuck with the bill.
TOM AJAMIE, SECURITIES ATTORNEY: Little guys getting rolled over on this badly -- the little guy shouldn't have to bail out and support a company that's just really poorly run and it was about to collapse. If it's going to collapse, we have procedures in order to take care of that.
PILGRIM: The merger pushed BOA stock down more than 70 percent since December. The deal led to BOA receiving a further $20 billion in TARP bailout money. SEC says it's doing its own investigation of the merger.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now a shareholder's meeting is scheduled for next week and the biggest question will be did the management of Bank of America care more about saving their jobs than protecting the interests of their shareholders. Lou, there's a lot more that has to come out on this case (INAUDIBLE) a series of denials today.
DOBBS: And all of them in conflict apparently. Also within this of course are those controversial bonuses that were handed out at the end of the year in the midst of all of this turmoil, because according to your reporting yesterday, it was the 17th of December when Ken Lewis wanted to pull out, is that correct?
PILGRIM: That's right.
DOBBS: The 17th?
PILGRIM: Yes and you know the bonuses actually took a lot of the press attention away from other topics at the time.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim reporting.
Federal regulators today starting to tell the nation's 19 largest banks the results of those so-called stress tests of their finances -- the Treasury won't release the results of those tests to the public, they say, until the fourth of May. The Federal Reserve today declared it won't allow any of those 19 banks to fail, even if they do badly in the so-called stress tests. That's because the banks hold one half of the loans now committed by the federal government to the U.S. banking system.
Up next, a fertility doctor's efforts to clone humans is raising serious legal, ethical and medical questions, we'll have the story for you. And dramatic video as lightning repeatedly strikes the tallest building in the United States. Those stories next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Among the stories we're reporting tonight across the country, officials now say yard debris caused that raging wildfire that is burning through South Carolina tonight. Firefighters in Myrtle Beach thought they had put out a yard fire last weekend. But that fire somehow restarted Wednesday evening.
The fire has now charred more than 19,000 acres, it's destroyed as many as 70 homes, no injuries have been reported. And in Chicago there a violent thunder and lightning rolling through Chicago last night -- as you see here, lightning striking the Sears Tower several times. The Sears Tower is this country's tallest building. And our CNN IReporter says that storm came out of, as he put it, nowhere.
In Nevada dramatic new pictures of high winds knocking this semi on to its side -- the State Highway Patrol telling us the area is hit with exceptionally strong winds about five days a year. The truck's driver was not hurt on what obviously was one of those five days.
Another part of Nevada preparing for an invasion of crickets -- each year crickets swarm in groups two miles in length -- residents have come up though with a way to stop those bugs in their tracks. They put out those boom boxes and they blast them with heavy metal music. The vibration seems to stop the bugs every time.
And a controversial fertility doctor tonight claims that he has cloned human embryos and implanted those embryos into four women. None of the women have become pregnant however, but the doctor's research raises serious ethical, legal, and medical questions about the cloning of human beings. Ines Ferre has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of my babies are doing well. They look beautiful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we have three very good embryos that could be in utero (ph) today. INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this documentary that aired on British television this week, Dr. Panos Zavos claims he transferred 11 cloned embryos into four women, none of them resulted in pregnancies, but Zavos predicts his team will create a cloned baby in two years time.
DR. PANOS ZAVOS, DIR., ANDROLOGY INST. OF AMERICA: We're interested in helping infertile couples to have biological children of their own. Thank god that this technology would be one of those developments that would be a positive development.
FERRE: Zavos' claim has been met with outrage by doctors and medical ethicists around the world. Dr. Samuel Wood has also cloned embryos but to create stem cells for medical research, not for reproduction.
DR. SAMUEL WOOD, STEMAGEN: It is universally considered to be unethical to perform the kind of procedures that Dr. Zavos is performing. There is no scientific rationale for doing it at all.
FERRE: This is how human embryo cloning works. The DNA from an adult cell is inserted into an egg that has had its own DNA removed. Eventually it develops into an embryo that could have been transferred into a woman's uterus. The American Society for Reproductive Medicine says it has no proof of Zavos' work. It sys animal cloning shows the procedure for humans is unsafe.
DR. ANDREW LA BARBERA, AMER. SOCIETY FOR REPRODUCTIVE MED.: The evidence would really suggest that the offspring will be abnormal.
FERRE: The ASRM is adamantly opposed to any effort to clone humans.
LA BARBERA: It seems inevitable that at some point in time it is going to implant and develop and I think that we have grave concerns about that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FERRE: And there is no federal law that prohibits human embryo cloning; the decision has been left up to each individual state. At least 13 states have laws that prohibit embryo cloning for reproductive purposes. Dr. Zavos says he did not transfer the cloned embryos here in the U.S. nor in Europe where there are regulations against it, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Ines, what would have happened had one of those women become pregnant?
FERRE: That is the great question, if there would have been a live birth after this and...
DOBBS: And animals have been demonstrated -- this is a terrible procedure, the riskiest imaginable.
FERRE: We spoke to several experts that said that the evidence shows that there would be birth defects.
DOBBS: But yet he is proceeding, this doctor and who knows how many others. Thank you very much, Ines, a fascinating story -- Ines Ferre.
Well coming up here next, former Vice President Al Gore comparing global warming legislation to two landmark events. We'll have his hyperbole next and a top official from the Centers for Disease Control join me to report on the deadly swine flu outbreak that is threatening this country. We'll find out whether it can be contained, here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "The Big Issues" tonight, new controversy in the escalating political and legal showdown over harsh interrogations by CIA officers. The Obama administration saying it will release photographs from investigations into alleged prisoner abuse by military personnel, and new indications tonight that the Obama White House is preparing contingency plans to send National Guard troops back to our border with Mexico. The Obama administration setting aside more than $300 million should the National Guard be required to stop Mexican drug cartels from bringing violence into the United States.
Rising concern about a deadly swine flu outbreak tonight in Mexico -- it's an outbreak that has killed as many as 60 people in Mexico. The swine flu virus has been linked with eight other cases in the United States. There are concerns about the risk of a global pandemic. Health officials say they have never seen this strain of swine flu before.
Joining me now with more on the potential threat of this flu outbreak is Rear Admiral Anne Schuchat -- she is director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, a medical doctor specializing in infectious diseases. Admiral, let me ask you first the CDC has just said that this is -- it's too late to contain this outbreak. What does that mean?
DR. ANNE SCHUCHAT, CTRS. FOR DISEASE CONTROL: You know this is a really unique situation that we're dealing with; it's a new strain of swine influenza that is infecting people. We're in good shape here in the United States with eight cases that fortunately all have been relatively mild; all of the people here in the U.S. have survived. But in Mexico, the situation looks a bit more severe with a number of deaths and apparently a similar virus circulating.
So it's very early days in trying to understand what's going on. The question of the circumstances is that we have illness in California here, we have illness in Texas, and there's illness in Mexico. So with the three different locations that are affected, we really don't think this is the kind of circumstance where we can contain the spread of the virus. We have many other things we can do and that's really important to focus on and that's what we are working on.
DOBBS: Well, let's turn to that in just a moment, but first I want to explain watching there, citizens in Mexico City who have take on the wearing masks trying to prevent the spread of this flu. Let me ask you, is that an effective way in which to deal with trying to stop the spread of swine flu?
SCHUCHAT: You know, there are a number of measures that people can take to reduce the spread of respiratory infections, important measures such as hygiene, isolation of ill patients, separating ill people from others.
In terms of the effectiveness of masks with the particular virus, we don't have that kind of information yet. It's very early days in studying this particular virus, as you mentioned, it's a new virus. We also don't know how people are getting the infection. In terms of what kind of contact they have had to have. So of course, people are trying to help themselves and we really do feel for the families in Mexico who have been experiencing this problem.
DOBBS: Absolutely and how many -- we know that there's as many as 60 who have died -- do we have a good estimate of the number of people who have contracted the flu?
SCHUCHAT: You know, I would say there aren't really accurate numbers at all from Mexico at this point. It's early days, they are actively investigating the situation and the CDC and others are going to be helping with that investigation.
You know, at this point in a situation like this, many things could change. We're gathering information and I think all of us are committed to share information as we get it. But it's hard to focus on the numbers because those are likely to change.
We know that there are a number of ill people and that we have tested some of the viruses from Mexico and we're able to confirm swine influenza.
DOBBS: Swine influenza, a strain that has never been seen before, it combines the flus from birds, humans and pigs, is that correct?
SCHUCHAT: Yes, that's right. There are four different components that we're seeing in the viral strains that have been tested including swine influenza from North America, swine influenza from Europe and Asia, bird influenza and also human influenza. So, it's a unique pattern that we're seeing and we really don't know as much as we would like to about this. But believe me, people are very busy at work studying the virus. It's really remarkable how much we've learned in just a very short period of time.
DOBBS: Dr. Schuchant, we thank you very much for being with us. I don't know whether to call you "Doctor" or "Admiral" so, I'll use both and I hope that covers it. We appreciate your time in what we know is a very, very busy period for you. Thank you very much.
SCHUCHAT: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Dr. Schuchat of the CDC. Well, the debate over global warming moved to Capitol Hill, today. Former vice president and vice presidential candidate Al Gore testified before a House committee pushing for climate change legislation. Gore calls the legislation "One of the most important pieces of legislation ever introduced in the Congress." He compared it, one point, to the civil rights legislation of the 1960s and the Marshall Plan. But one Republican says the legislation would penalize Americans more than it would help them. Lisa Sylvester with our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former vice president Al Gore was the star witness for Democrats who are pushing a bill that would cap carbon emissions. Gore says those emissions are killing the planet. He says floods, draughts and hurricanes are becoming more frequent and intense because of global warming.
AL GORE, CHMN THE ALLIANCE FOR CLIMATE PROTECTION: I am here today to lend my support to what I believe to be one of the most important pieces of legislation ever introduced in the congress. I believe this legislation has the moral significance equivalent to that of the civil rights legislation of the 1960s and the Marshall Plan of the late 1940s.
SYLVESTER: While Gore headlined the House Energy and Environment subcommittee hearing, lots of other speakers came after him. But absent from the debate, Gore's chief critic, the U.K's Lord Christopher Monckton who has challenged the former VP to an international debate.
While there's a broad consensus among scientists that use of fossil fuels is warming the planet, Monckton disagrees. Monckton sat through much of the testimony, but said that he had expected to be a speaker.
"The House Democrats don't want Gore humiliated, so they slammed the door of the Capitol in my face," Monckton told the online magazine "Climate Depot."
"Climate Depot" is a forum for skeptics of global warming.
MARC MORANO, CLIMATE DEPOT: If you look at Gore's testimony today, he was talking about what could, might and may happen 50 to 100 years from now. He was not talking about reality.
SYLVESTER: The trend, though, 11 of the warmest years on record came between 1995 and 2006. Much of the congressional debate focused not on global warming, but how the bill will impact working men and women. Proponents say cap and trade will cut emissions by 20 percent from 2005 levels by the year 2020. Republican critics call it a tax that encourage even more companies to ship jobs offshore.
REP FRED UPTON (R), MICHIGAN: It is a big tax, and when you do that, companies are going to leave. There is no assurance that China are India are going to have anything like this. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: A key Democrat came out agreeing with Republicans that the so-called cap and trade legislation is a tax. Former chairman of the House Energy Committee John Dingle saying that people in this country don't realize this is a tax and a great big one -- Lou.
DOBBS: And there is the matter of whether or not it would work at all, it has not worked anywhere else to this point, so we'll just watch and learn. Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester, appreciate it.
Well, as you just heard Lisa report, the former vice president claimed that this climate change legislation has the moral significance or equivalence of the civil rights legislation of the '60s and the Marshall Plans. Well, an interesting note, Gore's father, Senator Al Gore, Sr., like many southern Democrats at the time voted against the civil rights act of 1964.
Well, Earth Day, this week, and here are some words of doom and gloom from leading scientists, academics and authors on our climate and environment associated with Earth Day. Journalists Peter Collier wrote, "One to two million people per year will be starving to death during the next 10 years."
Biologist Paul Ehrlich claimed that most people are going to die in "the greatest cataclysm of mankind."
Harvard biologist, George Wall, said, "If we don't take act now, civilization will end between 15 or 30 years."
And ecologist Kenneth Watt claiming that in 15 years, "Air pollution will reduce the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one- half." I want to point out if I may that each and every one of those quotes were from the first Earth Day in 1970, nearly 40 years ago.
Up next here, what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi knew or didn't know about those CIA investigations. I'll be talking with three of the country's best political analysts.
And the push to kill Real ID I'll be joined by Peter Gadiel, he's president of 9/11 Families for a Secure America. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Homeland Security official whose agency was responsible for a controversial report on so-called right-wing extremists, has been replaced. Roger Macklin, a Bush administration holdover, was transferred out of DHS to the office of Director of National Intelligence, according tolished reports. An agency spokesman said the transfer had been in the works and wasn't regted to the report.
The report, among other things, claimed that some of our veterans were prime candidates for recruitment by right-wing extremists. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano has been criticized for that DHS report and her recent comments on repealing the Real ID act have led to new calls for her resignation.
Real ID, based on a key recommendation of the 9/11 Commission, calls for new standards for state driver's licenses. Those new standards would make it more difficult for terrorists to obtain valid identity documents, here in the United States.
Joining me now, Peter Gadiel, who's president of 9/11 Families for a Secure America.
Good to have you with us.
Thank you for having me in.
DOBBS: This has been a remarkable week and I would think particularly from your perspective, in which the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security has informed Canadians that 9/11 terrorists crossed their border with us into the United States, one in which she issued -- her agency issued that report, and at the same -- that we just referred to on right-wing extremism, and at the same time rejected Real ID. What is your reaction?
PETER GADIEL, PRES 9/11 FAMILIES FOR A SECURE AMERICA: Well, I think her admission that she doesn't know how the 9/11 terrorists got into the country in itself shows that she's utterly unqualified for the job that she holds. She also didn't know that illegal immigration is a crime.
This is a woman who is totally, unbelievably ignorant and the idea of repealing Real ID amounts to nothing more than saying I want to facilitate another 9/11. There can be no other explanation that this woman does not understand how 9/11 happened, what is necessary to prevent another one or she doesn't care that her politics are so skewed in favor of racist groups like LARASA, and the far-left of the Democratic party, like the ACLU, the soros when MoveOn.org win (ph), that she's incapable of making a rational decision.
DOBBS: I think we should also point out that the right-wing of the Republican Party, which includes the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, amongst others.
GADIEL: Most definitely, yeah. American Manufacturer Association, bankers, you name it, a whole line of industries.
DOBBS: So, where are the American people with -- they have a president who said that there would be amnesty, who has said that it will be part of his principle initiative this year. We have a Department of Homeland Security secretary who rejects the idea of secure documents, that is Real ID, who obviously has displayed just immense ignorance of both the history of this country, particularly where it pertained to the fundamental issue of the security of the country that she's responsible for, now.
GADIEL: I don't know what the answer is. Our government is so corrupt, our Congress is so controlled by lobbyists that I don't know that there's a way out of this mess. I never thought it would be possible for this country to come one a president worse than George W. Bush, but I think we have.
DOBBS: Really.
GADIEL: Yeah, I think we have. I think in the first 100 days, this man is showing, this Obama is showing that he is the captive of the far left-wing of his party, just as George Bush, in his open borders policy, was a captive of the capitalist, large big business wing of his party.
The result is the same policy, in terms of borders, one resulting from pressure from the right, the other from pressures from the left. But the result is the same. -- Americans suffer. We have a country that is -- we have a DHS secretary who does not comprehend the role that drivers licenses played in the 9/11 attacks. And she clearly is part of the administration's attack on Real ID.
Mr. Obama has appointed Hilda Solis, the woman who was an effective agent, yeah, as secretary of labor, who was rabidly in favor of giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens. And when you give licenses to illegal aliens you are inevitably giving licenses to the unknown terrorists and violent criminals among them. And it defies logic.
DOBBS: You seen, tonight, at any time, more than at any time since I've talked to you, you seem resigned.
GADIEL: I am resigned, because after seven years of our group lobbying in Washington, and various state capitals, against giving licenses to illegals and the unknown terrorists among them, I -- the forces, the powers on the other side, in terms of lobbying assets from the chamber of commerce, you know, manufacturers, bankers, LARASA, ACLU, the whole works, left and right is so enormous, so overwhelming, that don't think the American people can really counter-act that influence. It's just not possible. We don't have the organized whatever it is that these groups have.
DOBBS: I think we used to call it representation in our nation's capital. Maybe we can find that, let's hope so and I have got to say this, Peter, I hope you're, I very much, powerfully hope you're wrong. Appreciate you being here.
GADIEL: Thank you.
DOBBS: Peter Gadiel.
Well, up at the top of the hour, NO BIAS, NO BULL, Roland Martin in for Campbell Brown -- Roland.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: Hey Lou, President Barack Obama has already put the credit card industry on notice. Now he's taking on the student loan system and the banks that benefit from it. We'll have the details in a minute. The White House also faces a major task on whether or not to prosecute Bush officials who signed off on tough interrogations, but is there any real benefit to those prosecutions?
Plus some people are calling Miss California the GOP's newest star because of her opposition to same-sex marriages. How does she feel? We're talking to her, right on this show. Folks, we'll see you at the top of the hour.
DOBBS: Up next here, a look at our top stories of the week, three of the country's best political minds, stay with us, we'll be right back.
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DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the country's top political analysts. Republican strategist, former White House political director, Ed Rollins, and also a CNN contributor. Good to see you.
Also good to see you, Ron. Ron Christie, former special assistant to the president George W. Bush.
And syndicated columnist, Joe Conason. Joe, good to have you with us. It's been awhile.
Let's start with -- it's been quite a 90 days, this week has been extraordinary, do you have a clear sense of where this administration is headed on the prosecution of former Bush officials on the issue of "harsh interrogation techniques" or as some would have it, torture?
JOE CONASON, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, Lou, I think the president has finally figured out that it's not up to them to make the decision, under our cyst temperature of laws. It is actually the attorney general's decision. And when Barack Obama was running for president, he promised to restore the rule of law, which many people felt that been compromised under the Bush administration.
The way you do that is to allow the attorney general to make these decisions without the president, the White House chief of staff, or anyone else in the administration trying to spin or influence that decision.
Not only that, but we have a treaty obligation to examine, at least, allegations of torture by American personnel and officials, under the convention against torture, signed by my friend Rollins' old boss, Ed Reagan -- under Ronald Reagan. We have to look at those allegations and determine if they need to be prosecuted.
DOBBS: Think that means you're next, Ed.
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I wish we hadn't signed that international treaty. I'm not for any of these international treaties. I think at the end of the day they are going to come back to haunt us. I think we have a new president that basically is sort of running for U.N. secretary-general more than anything else. My concern here is -- there is a lot on this president's plate, there's a lot of problems facing this country. If you want to go back and rehash the drills that took place, I think to a certain extent you'll distract both the American public. We're still at war, we still have two fronts that we're battling, we're still fighting terrorists, and I think to a certain extent, anything that weakens the opportunity of the CIA and others to keep our borders safe is detrimental.
RON CHRISTIE, FMR SPECIAL ASST TO PRES BUSH: I agree with that. I think this is a gross overreach. I think there is a responsibility for commander-in-chief of the United States, president of the United States, to make sure all the citizens of this country are protected. And I think the president, the people in the Justice Department, people in the Department of Defense, the CIA, acted quite succinctly to make sure that, in a very brief amount of time, that we can do everything that we can to protect this country.
And now to try to criminalize behavior for legal opinions, I think opens the door to a very dangerous precedent in this country. When President Bush was first inaugurated, he could have looked back and said Jamie Gorelick, that officials from the Clinton administration, were they grossly negligent when they failed to kill Osama bin Laden when we had him in Sudan?
I think this is a political matter. I think, from a practical standpoint, this country needs to look forward and not behind. And what this administration is doing right now is very dangerous for those who are on the front line, our CIA officers, those in the intelligence community who are trying to protect this country against future harm.
DOBBS: Joe, you were talking about the president, as a presidential candidate, talking about law, and order, and at the same time up until this -- this week, he had said we are going to look forward, not back. What changed between that period of campaigning for the presidency of the United States, winning it, transition, first almost 90 days of his administration, and then this week? Because as you know, the clamor coming from Capitol Hill and we're told, also, from the attorney general himself, Eric Holder, for prosecution, what changed it?
CONASON: Well, Lou, I think everything changes when you take the oath, first of all. Wouldn't you imagine you become president and you have to suddenly try to balance your campaign rhetoric and things you really believe against the exigencies of trying to run the country and protect the country, as both Ed and Ron said. That's not something that Barack Obama can ignore.
On the other hand, he has a lot of people telling him, including top military officers, top people in the FBI, for many years, saying, torture harmed the country, torture harmed our security, torture got Americans killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, because it is the best recruiting tool for terrorism that exists. And those are questions that the president has to balance as well, in addition to the rule of law, our treaty obligations, which are real whether my friend Rollins likes them or not and the opinion of the world, which actually matters to us, now. We need allies, not just in Europe, but certainly, there, dealing with issues like Pakistan and Iran and you can't ignore world opinion, particularly when, you know, they're right about this particular issue.
CHRISTIE: Well, Joe, with all due respect. I mean, if you look at what happened -- the attorney general of the United States, yesterday, received 250,000 signatures, those who said we should prosecute. If you look, MoveOn.org is now running advertisements saying, oh, we must prosecute, we should go after people. I don't even think...
CONASON: The attorney general should ignore all of that. He should ignore all of that.
CHRISTIE: I agree with that...
CONASON: He also needs to ignore Republicans who are trying to tell him what to do.
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTIE: This has transformed from being a matter of policy to a matter of politics.
DOBBS: Ron, if I may, we're going to interrupt. We'll ask the attorney general to wait just a moment for you both to consult him and we'll do that as we return with our panel in just one moment. We'll be right back.
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DOBBS: Very quickly, let me turn, Joe, first to you. Eric holder as the arbiter -- the president said, he will be above politics. He's the one who has called the nation, a country of coward, when it comes to the issue of race. He's the one who has said that he just wants to do a few things with the Second Amendment. He has politicized, arguably, those issues. He has also, of course, at this point, got the opportunity to just simply defer to a truth commission called for by Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House. What do you think? Truth commission? Prosecution? Or all of the above?
CONASON: I think that the attorney general has the responsibility to examine these cases. Any credible evidence of violations of the convention against torture that are brought to his attention, he has the obligation to examine them. I think a truth commission should be something that, for example, former Vice President Cheney would welcome. He said the other day that he has the evidence that torture works or as he says, enhance...
CHRISTIE: ...absolutely wrong decision. I think the House and the Senate Arms Services committees and the Intelligence committees have already been looking into this. I think there is no malfeasance. We should not prosecute those who are on the front line against the war on terrorism. Those people who are protecting the American people against future and further attack. I think it's the wrong move. And this should not be a political decision, it should be done on policy. They have not broken the law. And frankly, Democrats don't even know what to prosecute on.
ROLLINS: My first witness would be Speaker Pelosi, who is one of four members of Congress that basically had oversight on all that sort of stuff, when did she know, when did she know it? Did she approve this? If the Democrats want to play that kind of game, play it right back.
DOBBS: So, you think you'd be comfortable with that on that basis?
ROLLINS: I'm not comfortable with that. I think that the bottom line is you're going to open up something that basically is not a good thing for this country. And I think we need to move forward and to worry about our troops and worry about the people that are still on the front lines.
CHRISTIE: It's a Pandora's Box. The president said he wants to move forward, not look back. We do not need to criminalize this. They've done nothing wrong and they don't even know what to prosecute on. It's the wrong move.
CONASON: It's something like 40 -- look on the U.S. Institute for Peace, something like 40 countries have gone through this process when they needed to. This is a big, strong nation. We can look at our truth...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: We're going to leave it on that statement of historical context. Perhaps the most appropriate observation. And a reminder to join me on the radio, Monday through Fridays on the LOU DOBBS SHOW, 2:00 to 4:00 p.m., each afternoon on WOR-710 in New York.
Thank you to our panel. And thank you for being with us, tonight. Have a great weekend. NO BIAS, NO BULL starts now. In for Campbell Brown, Roland Martin -- Roland.
