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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Deadly Outbreak; Schools Shut Down; Chrysler Bankruptcy; Positive Economy Outlook?
Aired April 30, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf. Good evening everybody.
The number of confirmed swine flu cases in this country has risen above 100. Among the suspected cases, an official in the Obama administration and Vice President Joe Biden has made another gaffe, this time on the issue of how to tackle the outbreak.
Also, the country's third largest car maker, Chrysler, going bankrupt in a restructuring that could give the United Auto Workers union control of the company -- we'll have all of that and the billions of dollars in taxpayer money to assess.
Americans are becoming, we're told, more hopeful about the direction of this economy -- a new indication that this recession could end later this year. We'll have that special report.
But we begin tonight with the spreading swine flu outbreak in this country. The Centers for Disease Control today said the number of confirmed cases in the United States has risen to 109 in 11 states. Twenty other states have suspected cases.
And Vice President Joe Biden today startled health officials when he declared Americans should stay away from airplanes and subways. An hour later, the White House issued a clarification, saying Americans should avoid confined spaces only if they are sick. Did the president -- vice president commit a gaffe or did he commit candor?
Meanwhile, the government of Mexico saying the number of swine flu cases there is stabilizing, though it did not give any numbers to support that assertion. Jeanne Meserve has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): National Guard troops moving and protecting anti-viral drugs which are weapons in reserve for the fight against the flu -- meanwhile, at the Washington Hospital Center, preparations for a possible onslaught of H1N1 cases.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have ventilators, cots, wheelchairs.
MESERVE: The number of confirmed cases is edging higher, the official tally from the Centers for Disease Control now 109 confirmed cases in 11 states. The death toll remains at one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are starting to get lots of questions, as you might imagine.
MESERVE: A Web cast supplemented the heavy diet of daily briefings, hearings and media appearances by federal, state and local officials.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks. I was just wondering about the safety of air travel?
JOHN COLMERS, MARYLAND HEALTH SECRETARY: Well I can tell you that from the standpoint of CDC there are no travel advisories that I knew of this morning recommending against air travel domestically.
MESERVE: But government officials carefully coordinated an effort to protect a calm, calibrated message pushing information without promoting panic got upset by Vice President Joe Biden who said he would tell his family to avoid airplanes, subways, even cars and schools.
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I wouldn't go anywhere in confined places now.
MESERVE: Biden's office issued a clarification, but officials spent much of the day clearing up the misunderstanding.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I understand what he said. I'm telling you what he meant to say, which was that...
MESERVE: What he meant to say was this.
REAR ADMIRAL DR. ANNE SCHUCHAT, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: We are recommending that people defer nonessential travel to Mexico. We are recommending that people who are sick not get on airplanes or public transportation, and I think there may have been a misstatement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: One member of Congress wondered allowed today if the country was working itself into too much of a frenzy over what is still a relatively small outbreak. But government officials are operating on the theory that giving Americans a lot of information and specific tips on how to protect themselves and their loved ones will prevent a frenzy. Lou?
DOBBS: You know -- thank you very much, Jeanne. We keep hearing people talk about frenzy, but I've seen no example of anyone in our society whatsoever frenzied. I hear a lot of government officials talking about frenzy and don't want panic, but I've seen absolutely zero examples of anyone, any American behaving either hysterically or frenzied or certainly in any manner approaching panic.
MESERVE: You know I haven't seen it either, but that was the term the congressman used. In fact you know there have been a lot of studies on the public and how it's going to react in an emergency. And those studies have shown that in many instances, people chip in to do the right thing. They understand that they have to take care of themselves and of other people. And the whole phenomenon may be a bit exaggerated.
DOBBS: All right, thank you very much, Jeanne. And when it comes to who I want to be shoulder-to-shoulder with, it will be the American people every time over government officials or those wonderful elected officials you work with all the time. Jeanne, thank you very much -- Jeanne Meserve.
MESERVE: You bet.
DOBBS: A government official became ill with possible swine flu after traveling to Mexico earlier this month in the president's delegation. Three members of the official's family has -- they've also come down ill. They've all since recovered, we are told. The official is a security aide to Energy Secretary Stephen Chou (ph).
He was in Mexico with the presidential party between April 13th and the 18th. The White House says there was no risk to the president. The official did not travel on Air Force One. But the White House is advising everyone who traveled to Mexico to see a doctor.
Health officials outside Mexico and the United States report a rising number of swine flu cases. None of those cases has led to any deaths so far. The World Health Organization now says Canada has confirmed 19 cases of swine flu; Spain, 13 cases. Another 84 suspected cases and the United Kingdom reporting eight confirmed cases, a possible 230 cases under investigation.
Meanwhile, Japan reporting its first suspected case, however, it hasn't been confirmed by the World Health Organization. Education officials in the United States have closed an increasing number of schools because of the swine flu outbreak. So far about 300 schools nationwide have been closed. Ines Ferre has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Fort Worth, Texas, workers are sanitizing schools after the entire school system was shut down at least until May 11th, affecting 140 schools, 80,000 children. Local authorities acted out of an abundance of caution.
DR. DAVID PURSE, HOUSTON DEPT. OF HEALTH: This decision was not taken lightly. We understand this creates a significant hardship on the parents in terms of childcare and work and so on.
FERRE: From kindergarten to high school there are more than 100,000 schools in the U.S., enrolling 55 million students. Already nearly 300 schools in at least 15 states are closed because of possible or confirmed swine flu cases. That's about 170,000 kids out of school. The ramifications for parents are huge.
KRISTY MURRAY, UNIV. OF TEXAS SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: The children have to be at home and then you need somebody there to be taking care of them. That's I think one of the hardest things and so people are going to end up having time away from work, especially if you have both working parents or a single parent, it's going to make it incredibly difficult.
FERRE: The government is already advising parents to prepare.
KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: What parents can do is begin to think about what happens if you get a note coming home with Johnny from kindergarten that says he won't be coming to school for several days.
FERRE: And employers will also be affected.
JANET NAPOLITANO, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: All of us should be dusting off our business contingency plans, looking at things such as telecommuting.
FERRE: All of this comes at a time when so many families rely on two incomes and face uncertain job security.
(on camera): But past flu studies show that keeping kids out of school is a way to stop the illness from spreading. And given the possible cases of swine flu across the country, it's expected the list of schools temporarily closing will grow.
Ines Ferre, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Mexico, the government there taking even stronger measures to stop the spread of swine flu. The Mexican government telling citizens to stay home and calling on corporations to close for five days -- only essential businesses and services will remain open -- among them, supermarkets, pharmacies and hospitals.
Meanwhile, Mexico's health secretary saying the number of new swine flu cases has stabilized. He says Mexico has 260 confirmed cases so far. Another suspected 2,500 cases.
Coming up next here we'll have much more on the swine flu outbreak, also Americans finally seeing signs of recovery in this economy. We'll tell you why and what it means.
And Chrysler goes bankrupt on a deal that could benefit the United Auto Workers union at taxpayer expense. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Chrysler today filed for bankruptcy after some of its lenders refused to accept a deal to restructure the company. President Obama criticizing those lenders -- he said they're demanding what he called an unjustified taxpayer bailout.
Meanwhile, Chrysler and Fiat of Italy reach an agreement to form an alliance. Tonight Chrysler is closing some of its factories until the deal is completed -- Ed Henry with our report from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president vowed the bankruptcy will not disrupt the lives of the car company's employees, and will not affect consumers' ability to buy a Chrysler or get one repaired.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The process that has the full support of Chrysler's key stakeholders and the full backing of the United States government. And I have every confidence that Chrysler will emerge from this process stronger and more competitive.
HENRY: But industry analysts are not quite as optimistic, noting the bankruptcy process can be messy in the short term and it's tough to change American buying habits over the long haul.
MIKE DUSHANE, CARANDDRIVER.COM: And if the American public suddenly decides that these same Chrysler products that they haven't been buying that they want to buy them, and Chrysler starts to pick up market share, they may pull through, but those are a lot of ifs and there's a heck of a lot of risks.
HENRY: The deal brings Italian automaker Fiat in for an alliance, while CEO Robert Nardelli will be out when the revamped company emerges from bankruptcy with up to $8 billion in help from taxpayers.
OBAMA: Every dime of new taxpayer money will be repaid before Fiat can take a majority ownership stake in Chrysler.
HENRY: The president's auto task force tried to avoid bankruptcy by getting several financial firms led by JPMorgan to agree to vastly reduce Chrysler's debt. But the president's team was outraged when a group of investment firms and hedge funds held out for better terms.
OBAMA: Some demanded twice the return that other lenders were getting. I don't stand with them. I stand with Chrysler's employees and their families and communities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now White House officials say they expect there will be no job cuts during this bankruptcy process. However, that's far from clear at this point. The company could ask the bankruptcy judge for example, for pay cuts, also could announce lay-offs down the road, could shut down plants, offices, et cetera. There's so much uncertainty, obviously, for these workers who in an already hard-hit industry. That's why they are on edge, Lou.
DOBBS: All right. Thank you very much -- Ed Henry from the White House.
The deal to save Chrysler means the United Auto Workers union could own as much as 55 percent of the company, all of this with the help of billions upon billions of dollars in taxpayer money. The federal government has already given Chrysler $4 billion in loans. Bill Tucker has our report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Obama sold bankruptcy for Chrysler as the best possible deal for the company, the workers and the taxpayers. Critics say Chrysler should have been allowed to fail last December. When all is said and done, the United Auto Workers union is expected to be Chrysler's single biggest shareholder owning 55 percent of the company. Some economists are blunt in their observation saying the deal is a straight payback to the United Auto Workers union.
PROF. PETER MORICI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: In bankruptcy court the creditor's rights would be superior to the union, But Obama's deal gives the pliant (ph) share of the benefits to the union over the creditors. This is clearly a pay-off to the UAW for their support during the recent presidential campaign.
TUCKER: Other financial analysts don't see it as a straight union play, however. They argue the situation is the result of a bad combination of industry lobbying and the union power.
OLIVIER GARRET, CASEY RESEARCH: Unfortunately, because they represent a lot of voters and a lot of lobbying power, the politicians have responded by delaying the process that was, in my mind, unavoidable. And by delaying it, it's going to cost more jobs and there will be more American workers that will lose their jobs as a result.
TUCKER: And management will be getting a bone. With the closing of Chrysler Financial, GMAC will take over as the preferred lender to buyers of Chrysler cars. GMAC is owned by GM and Cerberus, the private equity group which owns Chrysler. And while Chrysler CEO Bob Nardelli will be losing his CEO job, he will remain as a consultant to Cerberus. President Obama calls the deal orderly and controlled. One congressman who represents many union members says it is now anything but that.
REP. THADDEUS MCCOTTER (R), MICHIGAN: Now you are in bankruptcy and the very UAW workers and the very retirees that people talk about continue to face a cruelly uncertain future in a process of bankruptcy, which is indeterminate and defies any expiration date on -- with unknowable bounds.
TUCKER: The phrase quick rinse (ph) bankruptcy could be anything but.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: And ironically the small hedge fund investors that the president took sharp aim at, at his news conference are secured investors. Under bankruptcy law that puts them, Lou, at the front of the line.
DOBBS: Well the taxpayer is obviously at the end of the line.
TUCKER: Right. DOBBS: A lot of unanswered questions. How much taxpayer money does Cerberus walk away with? That is the private equity fund that owns Chrysler. How much of the money that the United Auto Workers union receive both in health care benefits and retiree pension will be paid for by the American taxpayer? And what happens if this doesn't work -- huge question.
TUCKER: It's a big question.
DOBBS: All right. Thank you very much -- Bill tucker.
Well today's deal will preserve Chrysler's pension plans. As I said, Chrysler workers have a traditional pension plan. The company in this case, the taxpayer assumes the risk. Many other workers now have a defined contribution plan such as 401(k)s where workers take the risk on the plans.
Back in 1985, 80 percent of the workers in this country were covered by traditional pensions. By 2000, the latest year in which, believe it or not, the data is available, the number is down to 36 percent. Meanwhile 40 percent of American workers are participating in 401(k) plans that aren't backed by federal tax dollars.
We would like to know what you think about all of this. Our poll question tonight is do you believe your tax dollars were used to pay the retirement and health care benefits of United Auto Workers members at Chrysler and to give them control of the company? Yes or no? We would like to hear from you. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results upcoming.
Up next, Americans showing new signs of optimism about the direction of our economy and dramatic video tonight of a wild tornado tearing through southwestern Kansas, closing highways, toppling power lines -- that story, a great deal more straight ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well we cover a lot of news that has been of late somewhat negative. I want to be sure that we bring you some positive developments today and there are a number that we have new signs that Americans are feeling far more positive about the direction of our economy. And according to the very latest CNN/Opinion Research poll, a rising number of Americans now believe economic conditions are improving. And a majority of Americans expect to see even more improvement in the year ahead -- Bill Schneider with our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The public's assessment of the economy has gone from bad to not so bad.
JOHN AVLON, THEDAILYBEAST.COM: And already you are seeing Americans believe the country is moving in the right direction, feeling optimistic about the future, indicators even in a tough time that we haven't seen in a while.
SCHNEIDER: In December, two-thirds of the public thought economic conditions in the country were very poor. By March just under half felt that way and now? So happy days are here again? Not quite. Very few Americans think times are good, but a growing number say things are somewhat poor rather than very poor.
Hey look, we'll take what we can get. In January, two-thirds of Americans said they were either happy or thrilled about having Barack Obama as president and now? The thrill is gone or at least gone down. But the public is still happy with President Obama. After the initial excitement, Americans understand that this will take time.
REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD), MAJORITY LEADER: A fast start to a long race. President Obama and the 111th Congress took office facing an historic recession, a banking crisis, a housing meltdown, and two wars.
SCHNEIDER: The president is more popular than his policies. Even his critics give him high marks on leadership.
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: I think he is very effectively achieving his agenda. That's a grade. Then I look at the agenda I believe he is taking the country very, very much in the wrong direction.
SCHNEIDER: The president claims he's keeping his promises.
OBAMA: The changes that we've made are the changes we promised.
SCHNEIDER: The people agree. Two-thirds say President Obama has done a good job keeping his campaign promises, more than twice the number who thought President Clinton was keeping his promises after 100 days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: President Obama is the mirror image of President Clinton. Clinton was personally a very polarizing figure, but his signature policies after the first two years, welfare reform, free trade, a balanced budget, were all passed with Republican support, triangulation. Now with President Obama the controversy is much more over the policies than over the person. Lou?
DOBBS: All right. Thank you very much, Bill. We appreciate it -- Bill Schneider.
The House of Representatives today approving a bill to protect millions of Americans from excessive credit card fees and penalties -- the so-called Credit Card Bill of rights passed by an overwhelming majority in the House, 357-70. The legislation bans companies from making sudden increases in late fees and interest rates. Most of these new measures won't take effect, however, for a year.
But a new requirement that customers receive 45-days notice before interest rates can be increased goes into effect in three months. We should mention that Visa says more Americans are now using debit over credit cards. Visa says debit card purchases accounting for more than 50 percent of its transactions by the end of last year.
The Senate today defeated legislation that would help millions of homeowners facing foreclosure. The Senate voted 51-45 against a plan that would have enabled homeowners to turn to bankruptcy court. That proposal was included in President Obama's mortgage rescue plan. The bills face stiff opposition from the banking industry.
Some of the other stories we are following here tonight across the country -- dramatic new pictures of a tornado sweeping through Garden City (ph), Kansas. That storm shut down more than 30 miles of Highway 83. The tornado left a path of downed power lines and snapped telephone poles, as well. No injuries reported.
In eastern Texas, a severe storm trapping 11 horses in high flood waters. The SPCA (ph) and rescue teams tried a dangerous water rescue. One horse knocked a rescue worker into the water, but all 11 horses were eventually pulled to safety.
In Boston, lanes there shut down on the Memorial Drive Highway when a truck was wedged under a foot bridge. The big rig tried to squeeze under the bridge or more appropriately, the driver tried to wedge the big rig under that bridge. It ripped off the top of the trailer before it became completely and utterly stuck. No injuries reported. We won't identify the driver.
Up next, rising concerns that our Customs and Border agents don't have enough equipment or resources to protect this country from swine flu and we'll have a live report for you from the Centers for Disease Control. We'll be turning to our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta just back from Mexico City. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The big stories tonight, Chrysler declares bankruptcy, forming an alliance with Fiat of Italy, trying to save the car company as part of that deal. The United Auto Workers union could take control of Chrysler along with the help of another $8 billion of taxpayer money in the form of loans to Chrysler.
Also, there are now more than 100 confirmed cases of swine flu in 11 states. Vice President Joe Biden today startling health officials, he declared that Americans should stay away from confined spaces such as planes and subways. The vice president's office later issued a clarification along with the White House, saying his advice only applies to Americans who are already sick.
And in a clarification of another sort from the World Health Organization -- the WHO today insisted that we no longer should call the disease swine flu because that phrase is misleading people. The World Health Organization prefers instead to call the virus H1N1 influenza A. The problem with that is that influenza A H1N1 is not exactly what this disease is. That was also a previously circulating disease over the winter. Well joining me now with the very latest on that deadly swine flu outbreak is our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, just returned from Mexico City just a few hours ago. First of all, Sanjay, great to have you back. Sanjay is now outside the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta.
Sanjay, we now are hearing 260 confirmed cases in Mexico from the WHO. The Mexican government says the situation is stabilizing. Sort it out for us. What does it all mean, Sanjay?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the numbers are likely still to go up even though the situation is stabilizing. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but they're still going to confirm more cases. People who they have been suspicious of for some time, those cases will get confirmed and you'll hear that 260 number rise.
What they are talking about is this human-to-human transmission that really is the focus of public health officials. As long as it's sustained, they're very concerned about it. We are starting to see decreased hospitalizations. We're starting to see decreased fatalities overall, not unexpected, Lou, as the weather gets warmer, as we go into the summer months. This -- it's likely this is going to dwindle down significantly, both in Mexico and the United States and probably around the world, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, that is terrific news. And that news also should influence how this country responds, its government response, to the swine flu.
What are the prospects now for a vaccine? I know you're going to be talking with the CDC tomorrow in some detail. What can you tell us about that?
GUPTA: Well, you know, I've been trying to drill down on that very issue. And I've asked very specific questions about the vaccine. And I -- to be honest, I haven't gotten a specific answer back.
I don't know right now if a vaccine is in production. And, you know, given that we're at this level five, which means that a pandemic is imminent, I think -- you know, that's a call to action, I think, for vaccine makers.
So we're going to try and sort that out tomorrow. I'm spending the entire day here at the CDC. I'm going to interview Dr. Besser and ask him about that.
But let me just say one thing about -- you know sorting this out, Lou, that I think is very important. And that is when we talk about an imminent pandemic, we are likely to see a larger number of infections around the world. That's what that means. But what that is really referring to is the scope of this. And that's to be distinguished from the severity of this.
As you know, Lou, in the United States, most of the people that have had the swine flu or H1N1 have had mild illness as a result. And it's probably true in Mexico, as well. We have this number of around 150, 160 deaths. It could be thousands of thousands of people who had mild illness.
That's an important point because I think the fatality rate is still actually relatively small and I think that's going to play out around the world. Mexico was the first place. But there are a lot of lessons learned there that can apply to other countries, Lou.
DOBBS: Yes. Among the infectious disease experts I've talked with, Sanjay, a couple of points emerged. One is that Mexico has not been -- nor should it be expected to be -- completely accurate in the number of its citizens who contracted swine flu.
And therefore, the morality rate is much, much lower and far less dramatic once those cases are revealed through better reporting.
GUPTA: That's right.
DOBBS: So that's something that should be happening. It's something the World Health Organization is now tackling. The second part of it is, on the same day the World Health Organization, one of its officials said there were only seven confirmed deaths in all of Mexico.
Within less than -- well, in a matter of hours, the World Health Organization had already redefined what category 4 is as a global alert, trying to avoid it, obviously, and then raised the global alert to 5.
The World Health Organization seems to be acting like a bureaucratic ossified and politically-correct organization rather than a responsible public health organization here.
GUPTA: You know, a lot of people are maybe over thinking this to some extent and that's what you're probably seeing, Lou. You know one thing to keep in mind about this pandemic rating scale is that it's only 5 years old. And this really the second time only that it's been tested. The first is with avian flu.
They wait for this data to come in to show sustained human transmission.
DOBBS: Right.
GUPTA: But, you know, people have different standards of that. And so I think that's part of what we're seeing, as well. Also the numbers are all over the map. I got confused by the numbers and I was right there in Mexico City. Part of the confusion is that people constantly confuse suspicious versus confirmed. And people -- you know even these deaths, a lot of them are suspicious deaths, they have not confirmed.
One of the things that we're hearing, and we're going to investigate this tomorrow as well, Lou, is how many of the samples are actually getting sent somewhere to be confirmed? There's been some concern that not enough of these samples are getting sent for actual confirmation. And that throws up the numbers as well.
But I completely agree with you on this point. That I think the fatality rate, when you look at the number of people that had swine flu but just had a minor illness, I think the fatality rate is actually going to be much smaller than we think.
DOBBS: And that is good news and the kind of news that we can all embrace as we debate the public policy issues surrounding this. Let's hope that the news continues to be good news in the days ahead.
Thank you very much. And let's be glad we've got the Centers for Disease Control to drive public policy and health in this country rather than -- let me put it kindly, a bureaucratic subsidiary of the United Nations.
And it's great to see you back in the home country, if you will. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks.
GUPTA: Thanks, Lou. Appreciate it.
DOBBS: There are new concerns tonight that commerce at our nation's borders may be taking priority for some over public health and public safety. Critics say the federal government's commitment to the so-called Security and Prosperity Partnership, what many call the blueprint for a North American union, has driven decisions to keep trade flowing between the United States and Mexico while at the same time leaving open the charge that commerce is taking precedence over public health concerns.
This may contribute to an explanation as to why the Obama administration has kept our borders wide open during the swine flu crisis with only what the secretary of Homeland Security called passive surveillance. She since recanted the term. We don't know yet about the practice.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Customs and Border Protection agents are a frontline of defense against the spread of swine flu for Mexico. But until today, many have been limited in their use of masks to protect themselves from the virus.
A CBP spokesman in California told CNN Thursday morning all agents in that state have been given masks, but can wear them only if they encounter someone they believe is sick, which according to the agents' union means they would already have been exposed to the virus.
HAROLD WASHINGTON, CBP UNION REPRESENTATIVE: We think that the agency has taken a wrong turn with this. They are concerned with the political aspect of what it looks like for the general public.
WIAN: Masks can reduce the risk of getting the flu in crowded areas. Just across the border in Tijuana, you can see Mexico custom agents wearing them. Later Thursday, the Homeland Security Department clarified its policy saying frontline customs agents can now wear masks at any time.
The Obama administration continues to keep borders and ports open so commerce is not disrupted, siding the opinions of health experts.
OBAMA: They have not recommended a border closing. From their perspective it would be akin to closing the barn door after the horses are out because we already have cases here in the United States.
WIAN: But another factor may be the Security and Prosperity Partnership, a commitment by the United States, Mexico and Canada to a common set of goals. In 2007, the SPP produced this plan to deal with a flu pandemic.
Its unifying principles include slowing and mitigating the disease and appropriate border measures that will give due consideration to free trade. There is no provision for closing the border.
REP. BRIAN BILBRAY (R), CALIFORNIA: Even though those documents might have been all fine and dandy in the cool light of a conference room before this crisis happened, it's obvious to me that our neighbors to the south are not worrying about some document that was signed -- you know, a couple of years ago in a back room.
They are doing what -- they are shutting down their commerce. Businesses are being closed, schools are being closed.
WIAN: But not borders.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: That's unacceptable to some law makers. Republican congressman Duncan Hunter of San Diego today repeated his call that the Mexican border be close to all nonessential crossings, which he defines as medical or commercial traffic. Lou?
DOBBS: And this as the government in Mexico City announced all so-called nonessential government employees will be off for the next -- well, five or six days. So it's taking things a little more seriously in responding a little more vigorously.
WIAN: Absolutely. And that's one of the things that Congressman Bilbray pointed out. And he's no friend of the Mexican government. He's been very critical of them on border security and other issues in the past. But he says on this issue, taking the swine flu virus and its threat to spread throughout the world seriously and taking action, they have a much better record, in his view, than the U.S. government does, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, much of the Obama administration is spending its day worrying about trying nomenclature and trying to dissuade news organizations from calling it swine flu. The amount of time given over to that politically-correct initiative is actually astounding.
Casey, thank you very much for bringing us up-to-date. Casey Wian. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano has now again retracted her statements. This time a description of the government's response to the swine flu on our border with Mexico after a storm of protests.
Monday Secretary Napolitano said her department was passively surveying people coming into the United States from Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAPOLITANO: We're already doing passive surveillance at the border. And with respect to closing the border, again, you would close the border if you thought you could contain disease.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Then yesterday Secretary Napolitano reversed herself saying her own assessment of the situation was not correct.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAPOLITANO: The term passive surveillance is really not an accurate depiction of what is going on. What our CBP officers are doing is actively monitoring travelers that are attempting to cross the border.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Secretary Napolitano is standing by her statement that closing the border isn't the answer. She did not elaborate on what is the answer.
Up next, the deadly flu outbreak continues to spread around the world. A leading authority on pandemics and national preparedness joins me here.
And a new effort at pushing so-called comprehensive immigration reform, what some call amnesty. We'll have that story for you and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senate Democrats today relaid the ground work for so- called amnesty or immigration reform comprehensively. The plan would include amnesty, of course, for millions of illegal aliens, 12 to 20 million of them, and many of their close family members. They're often forgotten in the count.
President Obama has made amnesty a priority, or comprehensive immigration reform, as he puts it, despite a struggling economy and struggling Americans out of work.
Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After two failed attempts in the last Congress, senators revived the immigration debate. This time it was Senator Chuck Schumer taking the lead from an ailing Senator Ted Kennedy, who until now has been at the forefront of the immigration debate.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: The politics may be hard, but the reality is obvious. It is in everyone's best interest to change and fix our current immigration system.
SYLVESTER: The Obama administration wants a bill that would include what it calls a path to citizenship for some 12 million plus illegal aliens, allowing them to pay a fine and stay in the United States, while tightening border security.
OBAMA: I see the process moving this first year. And I'm going to be moving it as quickly as I can.
SYLVESTER: Departing from Bush administration policy, the Department of Homeland Security announced enforcement efforts will be focused on the employers who hire illegal aliens. Secretary Janet Napolitano has been critical of raids targeting specifically illegal employees.
Also weighing in on the debate, former Fed chairman, Alan Greenspan, who testified that illegal immigrants are necessary for the U.S. economy, and said foreign workers can be found in very high- skilled and very low-skilled positions.
ALAN GREENSPAN, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: If you were to remove either of those groups, the economy would be in very serious trouble.
SYLVESTER: But unemployment has been soaring for U.S. workers, chopping 10 percent in some cities and states. Law professor Chris Kobach says anything that smells of an amnesty will be a very tough sell.
PROF. KRIS KOBACH, UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI: This is going to be huge because if they try to grant an amnesty now when so many Americans are struggling to get a job and put food on the table, it's going to be mayhem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Even President Obama acknowledged that it is going to be tough to strike a deal if Americans believe that the borders are not secure and we continue to have this free flow of illegal immigration. Lou?
DOBBS: And there's been no indication of any kind that we have seen illegal immigrants in this country leaving the United States because of that high unemployment rate, and we are also not seeing any coverage of the fact that illegal immigrants in this country are taking advantage of our social safety net, if you will. SYLVESTER: Well, there definitely is a social safety net. And Congress, you know, that's part of this package, this comprehensive package, is they want to expand that over time. And they are pretty set on trying to get this through some time before the end of this year, Lou.
DOBBS: And the numbers that we want to make sure we're clear about. It's 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in this country. It would not only be they who would be brought in on the what the president calls a path to citizenship or amnesty, but also the close family members they would bring with them, correct?
SYLVESTER: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then they could petition to have extended family members brought in after that as well, Lou.
DOBBS: It's odd that the president fails to mention those numbers, isn't it? I'm sure it's just an oversight.
Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Up at the top of the hour, "NO BIAS, NO BULL." Roland Martin in for Campbell Brown. Roland?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Lou. We'll have the latest on the spread of swine flu or what the government is now calling H1N1 virus. We're also separating fact from fiction.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta who has been in Mexico and is back in the U.S. tells us what really has -- worried about and how to stay healthy.
Also wait until you hear what one group that says they'll never be wrong has to say about the recession and it could be over fairly soon.
Also, Lou, pretty interesting. What if the wives of elected officials told them no sex until you do something about health care or immigration, how long would it take to get results?
We're taking your calls on sex and power. Trust me, when you hear this story, you'll be interested.
DOBBS: Sex, power and I assume divorce will be the third element of that.
(LAUGHTER)
Thank you very much.
MARTIN: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Up next, new questions about whether Pakistan is doing enough to fight radical Islamic terrorists. A military analyst, General David Grange joins us.
And a leading influenza expert tells us how this country should be responding to the swine flu outbreak. Dr. Irwin Redlener of Columbia University joins me here.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me for more on the swine flu outbreak is Dr. Irwin Redlener. He is the director of the National Center for Disaster Preparedness at Columbia University. Also a professor of clinical public health at Columbia's Mailman School of Public Health.
Good to have you with us, Doctor.
DR. IRWIN REDLENER, AUTHOR, "AMERICANS AT RISK": Nice to be here, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's start with all of the confusing numbers that are coming out. Let me start with the World Health Organization, which I've been criticizing for their retrograde approach to public health.
I understand they are a U.N. agency, but that -- you know, that's only part of the explanation. It seems irresponsible for them to say there's seven confirmed cases of deaths in the swine flu outbreak when we know very well that it's approaching 200 in Mexico, that it's over thousands upon thousands.
Some of the infectious disease experts I talked with think the numbers are in the hundreds of thousands and that the mortality rate is much more than the World Health Organization numbers would suggest.
What's your reaction?
REDLENER: Well, first of all, I think you're absolutely right. This entire situation as it's been rapidly unfolding over the last week or so has been shrouded in mystery and confusion, all of which, of course, is contributing to a level of anxiety among the general public and a lot of confusion about what our public health policy should be in return.
It's admittedly difficult to get exact numbers. But I think a lot more clarity is warranted and is available. Because people are now making decisions about school closings and discussing border closings and so forth. And we need to get a handle on whatever it is that we do know about this so we make decisions that are based in reality.
DOBBS: We were reporting here on those projections from some of the leading infectious disease experts in the world, talking about the scale and scope of it, and to some -- and pointing out very clearly the severity of this outbreak is still undetermined outside of Mexico because we have not had fatalities within Mexico, because we don't know the total number of people that have been affected, therefore we don't know the mortality rate.
And I had someone say to me, well, we've got to be very careful. We don't want to drive fear in the public with this information. And my answer was, we're not driving fear. The American people are absolutely courageous. They are steadfast and centered. It's the idiots in government who can't seem to make mature, responsible decisions and communicate clearly and honestly with the people.
REDLENER: Well, you know, one of the things that's unfortunate but it's a reality is that in order to get any movement in the public health community about what might need to be done by public health officials, the World Health Organization and other national public health organizations have to use words like an emergency.
They have to raise the level to a level 5...
DOBBS: Right.
REDLENER: ... level of awareness, which the public doesn't know how to deal with that yet. It's like when...
DOBBS: The public doesn't care. The public, right now, I would say to you, and by the public I'm referring to myself, as well. I'm part of the public. Who knows what the color code is for terrorist attacks? The public is indifferent to that. It's public relations on the part of government agencies and organizations.
What we really need is honest communication of what we're facing and how we're responding in matters of public policy, don't you agree?
REDLENER: I agree, but part of that bargain that has to be struck, is that we have to -- that we have to and should expect honest assessment of what's going on, including people saying, I don't know. We don't know yet.
We're following this, we're tracking it as information becomes available that we can rely on it goes to the public. And more importantly, what is it that we want our agencies to be doing to get ready for this. And that's a big question.
DOBBS: What kind of shape do you think we are in, in this country?
REDLENER: Well -- in this country, we've -- you know we've done a lot of work since 9/11, let's say, and since SARS and the avian flu scare. We're better in the public health side. I am very worried about hospital preparedness. I think we're in a dangerous situation if anything really does go down that's significant but we have a lot of work still to be done.
DOBBS: All right. Dr. Irwin Redlener, thanks a lot. Appreciate it.
REDLENER: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here. Pakistan on the brink. The Taliban just 60 miles from the capital. Fierce fighting today. General David Grange joins us to assess that threat.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Pakistani troops today bombarding radical Islamist terrorists just 60 miles from the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad. Joining me now David Grange here in New York to support the Federal Enforcement Homeland Security Foundation.
And it's great to see you here in the big city.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you, Lou. I appreciate it.
DOBBS: Thanks, Dave.
Let me -- let's turn first to something that I found astonishing. And that was the comments from Robert Gates, the defense secretary, today talking about the proposed troop surge in Afghanistan.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I worry a great deal about the size of the foreign military footprint in Afghanistan. Soviets were in there with 100,000 troops, didn't care about civilian casualties and couldn't win. With our other NATO allies and other partners, with the troops the president has approved, we'll be at about 100,000.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Those are rather ominous words that went well beyond caution, it seemed to me.
GRANGE: Well, I believe in a surge. I believe that a military surge will make a difference if two things happen. One that American troops are with the Afghan people, not at an outpost line dislocated from the people in need who...
DOBBS: Right.
GRANGE: ... who was the center of gravity. The other is that we employ the military with all the elements of power.
DOBBS: And in Pakistan, bombardment under way, the Pakistani army moving in now to deal with the Taliban, what is your expectation there?
GRANGE: They must. They have to show a strong hand. The Taliban will make a deal to break it, they'll make another deal down the road. The Pakistani army has to stop focusing on India and focus internally, because where India will be involved? If Pakistan falls apart. So if they don't start focusing internally, then there'll be a big problem in the region.
DOBBS: Do you see that commitment coming from the Pakistanis right now?
GRANGE: Slowly, but we need to help them make that commitment.
DOBBS: And is the surge strategy in Afghanistan on the part of the United States part of that effort to support the Pakistani will, if you would?
GRANGE: I believe so. It has to be a regional approach to be successful.
DOBBS: All right. General Dave Grange, good to have you with us.
GRANGE: Thank you, Lou. My pleasure.
DOBBS: Tonight's poll result. 80 percent of you believe your tax dollars were used to pay for the retirement and health benefits of the United Auto Workers union members at Chrysler, and to apparently give them control of the company.
A reminder to join me on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show" 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. each afternoon on WOR 719 Radio right here in New York. Go to Loudobbsradio.com to get the listing in your local area for the show.
We thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York -- that's New York. So nice you got to say it twice. New York, New York. There I said.
"NO BIAS NO BULL" starts right now. In for Campbell Brown, Roland Martin. Roland?
MARTIN: Hey, Lou. Thanks so much.
Tonight, folks, we're starting with the newest update on swine flue or as the government is now calling it, the H1N1 virus. Now whatever you call it, I've got some smart folks here, as always, to cut through the fear and get you the real story.
We've also got a lot of other things to talk about tonight with chief business correspondent, Ali Velshi, national political correspondent, Jessica Yellin, and from "Issues" on HLN Jane Velez- Mitchell.
