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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Obama Flip-Flop; Interrogation Hearing; Pelosi Under Fire
Aired May 13, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Thank you, Wolf. Good evening, everybody.
Another major reversal by the Obama administration, this time on the issue of whether to release hundreds of photos of alleged prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan; the White House decision angering liberals, putting the interests of our troops first.
Also, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi may get a truth commission that she asks for on the CIA's harsh interrogation methods, but certainly not the kind of commission that she had been thinking of. One top Republican senator today declaring House Speaker Pelosi must fully disclose what she knew about those interrogation techniques.
And a startling new illustration of our government at work; the National Institutes of Health spending almost $3 million of your taxpayer money investigating alcohol use and abuse by prostitutes, not in this country, but in communist China.
And tonight we exam a rising controversy over free speech, political correctness and discrimination after a student was thrown out of medical school for describing himself as white, African- American.
We begin tonight with the latest reversal by the Obama administration, the White House today declared it will now try to block the release of photos showing military personnel allegedly abusing terror suspects. President Obama said those photos could increase the dangers that face our troops and as he put it, further inflame anti-American opinion. The administration's reversal comes nearly three weeks after it agreed to release those photographs, following a lawsuit by the ACLU. Ed Henry reports from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A dramatic reversal by the president on whether to make prison abuse photos public.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe would be to further inflame anti-American opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.
HENRY: But the president's own spokesman said the opposite just last month, insisting the release of Abu Ghraib style photos and memos detailing alleged torture would not harm U.S. troops. ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There was a lot of back and forth in his mind over the course of several weeks about ensuring that this protected those that keep us safe, that it protected our national security.
HENRY: The president refused to take questions while Robert Gibbs struggled to explain what sparked the change.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was there a failure here at the White House in the first go-around in April to fully weigh the national security implications?
GIBBS: The argument that the president seeks to make is one that hasn't been made before. The -- I'm not going to get into blame for this or that.
HENRY: Senior military officials confirm to CNN that in the last several days, Generals David Petraeus and Ray Odierno urged the president to reconsider because of concerns about the effect on U.S. troops, but that argument had been made previously, so liberals immediately ripped the president's flip-flop.
AMRIT SINGH, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: This decision makes a mockery of President Obama's promise of transparency and accountability. It's essential that these photographs be released so that the public can examine for itself the full scope and scale of prisoner abuse.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now White House aides insist this is not a flip-flop. They note that no final decision on releasing photos had been made until last Friday when the president himself called in his legal team and said he wanted to launch this new legal argument and that essentially anything his aides said before that is superseded by what the commander in chief now has to say that there's no denying that what is going on here is that some of the president's promises on transparency turning out to be more difficult to actually follow through on as he figures out here how to govern, Lou.
DOBBS: Then what was Robert Gibbs explaining just last month as he went about answering your question?
HENRY: Well, last month, he was trying to explain the general principles the president has had in the first 100 days and beyond which clearly has been to try to turn the page on the Bush years, and err on the side of more transparency. There's no other conclusion you can draw from what he was saying on April 24th. Now they've reversed that.
Now they're saying, as they did then -- we should point out in fairness Robert Gibbs on April 24th did say, look, the president is concerned about how these photos or anything else may affect our troops. Nevertheless he laid out the principles the president believes in terms of transparency, et cetera. Now they're saying he's still concerned about the troops, but that is outweighing transparency and the other things. That is a change from last month.
DOBBS: And Gibbs said that the president is seeking to make a -- an argument that hasn't been made before. What is that argument?
HENRY: We have not been able to get all of the specifics on that obviously. It has not been put into any sort of written form. In general, he was saying a legal argument along the lines of national security grounds being the most important thing to weigh here. But it likely will have to go to the Supreme Court.
They have a decision to make in the next few weeks whether to actually bring it to the Supreme Court. And it could be tied up for a while. And nobody really knows how it's all going to turn out. I mean we've heard from some legal experts like our own Jeffrey Toobin saying that he could be on firm ground here because if the executive branch is asserting that national security -- there would be a national security harm if these photos came out. As we saw in the Bush years there were some cases that where the Bush folks were on solid legal ground. But I think the broader point is that while you're seeing liberals like the ACLU getting upset now is that this president promised to have a different approach, Lou.
DOBBS: So what we have is a hypothetical case with speculation about the argument to be made and a reversal and a decision based on, as of today, concern about the well being, the safety of our troops?
HENRY: That's right. And they insist that they have always been concerned about the troops and in fact Robert Gibbs at that briefing, April 24th did say...
DOBBS: But today...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But today, Ed...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Today apparently it was determinant, is that correct?
HENRY: Yes, but now they're saying that that argument supersedes the other arguments essentially, even though they had raised it as one factor before. They had clearly suggested before that transparency and, you know, trying to turn the page on the Bush years, cleansed the government, the administration...
DOBBS: The administration is saying transparency trumped national security?
HENRY: Well they were suggesting that transparency and national security weighed all together that they were erring on the side of transparency, because they believed it would not harm national security. Now they're saying they have deep concerns about national security and that's why they want to try to block the release of the photos. That's a different argument than what they said a month ago.
DOBBS: Subtlety, somewhat overwhelming -- Ed Henry thank you very much. Appreciate it -- from the White House.
We want to know what you think about all of this. Our poll question tonight: Do you agree with the president's decision to stop the release of those detainee photos? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
The controversy over the CIA so-called enhanced interrogation techniques what some would call torture took center stage on Capitol Hill. In a highly partisan hearing, Senate Democrats accuse Bush administration officials of justifying torture and lying. Only one Republican was in attendance at that hearing. Dana Bash has our report from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Behind this wall, identity hidden a former FBI agent who personally interrogated top al Qaeda operatives and says harsh tactics like waterboarding do not work.
ALI SOUFAN, FORMER FBI AGENT: These techniques from an operational perspective are slow, ineffective, and reliable.
BASH: In dramatic testimony, Ali Soufan said he got a treasure trove of usable intelligence from Abu Zubaydah, found out about 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed without using extreme tactics, but when his team was replaced with CIA contractors using harsh techniques, Abu Zubaydah shut down.
SOUFAN: Waterboarding itself had to be used 83 times, an indication that Abu Zubaydah had already called his interrogators bluff. In contrast when we interrogated him using intelligent interrogation methods within the first hour, we gained important actionable intelligence.
BASH: Also testifying, Philip Zelikow, former counselor to Condoleezza Rice who criticized the tactics in an internal memo which he says Bush officials tried to destroy.
PHILIP ZELIKOW, FORMER STATE DEPT. COUNSELOR: The U.S. government over the past seven years adopted an unprecedented program in America history of cruelly calculated dehumanizing abuse and physical torment to extract information.
BASH: This was the first hearing on extreme tactics since the president released classified Bush era interrogation memos and it was partisan from the start.
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: The lies are legion (ph). President Bush told us America does not torture.
BASH: Only one GOP senator asked questions, Lindsey Graham. He's a Republican who has long been opposed to harsh interrogation techniques but still hammered Democrats for holding a one-sided hearing.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I don't know whether this is actually pursuing the nobility of the law or political stunt.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And Senator Graham said while he does believe extreme tactics like waterboarding are immoral, the decision to use them in the aftermath of 9/11, that was not criminal. But Lou, Democrats are not done. The senator who chaired this hearing today, Sheldon Whitehouse, says he hopes it is just the first in a series of hearings, which he said he hopes will find the avalanche of falsehood from the Bush administration. Lou?
DOBBS: Well at the same time, Nancy Pelosi is under -- her credibility is under utter assault from both within her party and without. This looks like she is the one who had asked for a truth commission. It looks like this -- this looking back as President Obama put it, while saying he wanted to look forward, this appears to be the direction we're headed. Is that correct?
BASH: Well, you know, it is entirely possible and you're absolutely right. We are not -- it's not done yet when it comes to Nancy Pelosi's story of what she knew and when she knew it. In fact that story seems to be changing quite often. Senator Graham, actually, again the only Republican in that hearing today, he did make a point, Lou, of saying that you know Nancy Pelosi was one of a few Democrats who was briefed or at least she at the end of the day knew about these tactics and that that is something that is a legitimate question to be asked, whether or not Congress was in any way complicit for not jumping up and down...
DOBBS: These hearings -- these hearings are going to go forward, though?
BASH: Hearings like this are going to go forward, Lou. This is a sub committee hearing and a judiciary committee. These are going to go forward. Things like this -- however that truth commission, that independent commission that Nancy Pelosi had been asking for, other Democrats like Pat Leahy had been asking for. The president pretty much put the kibosh on that. That is not going to happen in the near future, but things like this you bet we're going to see these kinds of hearings in the future.
DOBBS: So these are basically then just stunts, because they are not going to go anywhere?
BASH: That's the word that Lindsey Graham used today...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, but I know it's difficult to characterize it that way. I'm just saying if this isn't going to be going anywhere, if it's not going to have the capacity to grow broader and deeper, then it is nothing more than -- it's little more than theater.
BASH: Well I will tell you what the Democrats argue. They argue that it is absolutely critical as part of the oversight you know performance of Congress to be looking into these things and to be looking back, because they say that is the only way to get the credibility of America back on track. Now, having said that, you know, part of the reason why you did not see Republicans there today is because they agree with the statement you just made, Lou, and they believe that when you ask witnesses to come, who only agree with your position, you're not really going to get to the bottom of answers. But I will tell you, Republicans don't really want to get to the bottom of it. They don't want to look back. They want to move on.
DOBBS: Yeah, but the point being that there were only -- there's a decided "can't" in all of this if only witnesses were called who can support the preconception taken by the chairman of the subcommittee. Is that correct?
BASH: That is correct. Now the Republicans apparently were given the option to bring some of their own witnesses. They didn't do that. That speaks to the idea that they don't want to do these investigations. They don't want to look back. But you know your basic point here that you really can't look into this in a broad way without having some kind of independent commission that is true...
DOBBS: Well that isn't actually what I said. What I was asking is why the committee is not proceeding...
BASH: Yeah.
DOBBS: ... with a specific purpose, a specific agenda and a schedule of some sort. But if -- and if it is to be abrogated here that seems to be at the very least ineffectual -- Dana, thank you very much. Appreciate it -- Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
In a break during that hearing, Senator Graham demanded to know what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi knew about the CIA so-called harsh interrogation methods. This after the speaker had asserted that she was never told that waterboarding was actually being used against terror suspects, but a source close to the speaker now confirms that one of her aides informed her in February of 2003 that the CIA did use waterboarding.
Candy Crowley joins me now. Candy, you talked with Speaker Pelosi about what she knew and when she knew it. What did she tell you?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she said repeatedly that in no briefing she ever attended was she told that the U.S. was using waterboarding or other forms of extreme interrogation that she says are torture. Others who were present disagree, but Pelosi says in those briefings she -- in the briefings that she got, intelligence operatives only described the methods and then told her that Justice Department lawyers had found they were legal.
DOBBS: Well, if...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: You could have said this is unacceptable to me. I don't care what your legal people are telling you, we should not be doing...
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: And to what end? To what end? No, we're not -- they didn't say they were doing it. But you know what -- I'm not getting into that. The fact is, is that I know what they told us. And I know that they did not share our values. So any briefing that you would get from the Bush administration on the subject is one that is probably something you're not going to agree with and two, maybe not the whole truth anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: This interview was done right around the 100-day mark. And since that time, more information has come out, Lou. There's been more criticism of Pelosi. Republicans having a field day, offering lists of things that Pelosi could have done if she had objections. Her office says that's obviously a political effort to undermine her, but there are, as you say, Democrats who privately at this moment say Pelosi has totally mishandled this.
DOBBS: Well mishandled it in the sense that the truth doesn't seem -- well, at this point to be coming forward. And she responded to you -- her initial response that she didn't know anything about it, that it just didn't happen, to -- there's a continuing evolution it seems every few days in what she is saying about what she knew and when and how she responded to you is remarkable in that she is really saying she couldn't protest conduct that she believed that -- well, that she didn't know about based on the fact that the Bush administration somehow was being less than truthful with her, it makes no sense at all.
CROWLEY: Well, and that's the point that her critics are making, saying, listen, OK, you are restricted from telling anything about what goes on in a briefing. But that doesn't mean that in that briefing you could have said wait a second, wait a second. Or that you couldn't have asked for a meeting with the president or that you couldn't have sent a letter as Congressman Jane Harman did at some point saying I oppose these techniques. Senator Jay Rockefeller also objected to something...
DOBBS: Right.
CROWLEY: ... that the CIA was doing through a letter, so they're arguing look there were ways you could have done this. You can't just sit back now and say well, you know whatever the Bush administration told us they'd already done and I couldn't do anything about it.
DOBBS: Especially under the rubric that she knew nothing about waterboarding.
CROWLEY: Right. I mean what we're being told now by the source, as you reported, is that in fact one of her aides did go to an intelligence briefing where they were told on a particular terror suspect they were using waterboarding, so she in this interview was talking about a specifically the briefings that she attended herself, so this is a relatively new piece of information, the idea that one of her aides told her about it. DOBBS: In February of 2003, her intelligence aide we should point out.
CROWLEY: Absolutely.
DOBBS: All right. Thank you very much, Candy, as always.
CROWLEY: Sure.
DOBBS: Candy Crowley.
Well this controversy over what the speaker knew and when she knew it is unlikely to improve the reputation of Congress. Most Americans already have an extraordinarily low opinion of Congress. A new Gallup poll shows only 37 percent of Americans approve of the way in which Congress is conducting its business.
A rising espionage threat -- a Pentagon official charged with spying for communist China.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: N.Y. charges tonight that communist Chinese spies are trying to steal national secrets. Investigators say a Pentagon official sold highly sensitive information to the Chinese government. This is only the latest evidence of Chinese espionage, something that we've been reporting on this broadcast for years. Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Prosecutors say James Wilbur Fondren, the deputy director of the Washington liaison office of the U.S. Pacific Command, allegedly took secret DOD documents and incorporated them into opinion papers that he sold to Tai Shen Kuo, a naturalized U.S. citizen from Taiwan.
The price ranged from 350 to $800 apiece. Part of a consulting business Fondren operated on the side. FBI official Arthur Cummings (ph) said Fondren was, quote, "placing his own interests over those of the citizens he served as a U.S. government employee." Fondren's attorney maintains he's innocent saying quote, "Mr. Fondren did not knowingly provide any classified information to an agent of the People's Republic of China."
Court papers say that a Chinese government official suggested Kuo mislead Fondren into believing that Kuo was collecting DOD information at the direction of Taiwan government officials instead of the People's Republic of China, a ploy known as a "false flag". James Carafano is a security analyst with the conservative Heritage Foundation.
JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: And spies aren't stupid. They know this. They know that if they present themselves as well it's going to an ally. It's going to a friend. You're just helping strengthen the relationship between the United States and you know Taiwan, for example.
SYLVESTER: But it is against the law to pass along classified information even to U.S. allies. Among the documents prosecutors say Fondren gave to Kuo was a draft copy of a Department of Defense unclassified document entitled the "National Military Strategy of the United States of America 2008". Fondren also wrote a report about U.S. naval exercises near Hawaii that contained classified information. China has devoted mass amounts of money to spy against the United States, says a former staff director of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
GARY SCHMITT, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: We've seen a real consistent pattern of Chinese espionage over the last 15, 20 years and I don't think it'll slow down.
SYLVESTER: Kuo pleaded guilty to espionage conspiracy last year along with Greg William Burgeson (ph), another former Defense Department employee who admitted providing defense secrets to Kuo.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And James Fondren (ph) had his first court appearance today. If convicted he faces a maximum of five years imprisonment and a $250,000 fine. Lou?
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you -- Lisa Sylvester.
Craigslist takes erotic ads off its Web site and replaces them with adult ads and a dramatic landing for a Southwest Airlines jetliner in Houston.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The popular Web site Craigslist is shutting down its so- called erotic services section. The Web site says it will replace erotic services with a new carefully screened adult services section. The Web site will ban all graphic photos and every ad posted will be reviewed manually. Pressure to shut down the section has grown since a Boston University medical student was accused of killing a masseuse that he met on the site.
Other stories we're following across the country tonight -- dramatic pictures of a fiery landing for an aircraft in Houston. The Southwest Airlines plane blew out a tire upon landing. The fire then -- the tire then burst into flames -- those flames shooting out from beneath the plane. The fire luckily did not spread. Passengers and crew then used emergency slides to evacuate the plane. No serious injuries were reported.
In Atlanta Federal Drug Enforcement agents seized more than 350 pounds of Mexican crystal methamphetamines -- those drugs worth millions -- tens of millions of dollars on the street. Four Mexican nationals were arrested, three of them were in the country illegally.
In Los Angeles police tried to stop a man for a traffic violation which turned into a high-speed chase. The man weaved in and out of traffic, blew through intersections. At one point the car slowed on a busy overpass and a passenger did jump out, but the driver saw an opening, then he took off again. He left the highway swerving to avoid an oncoming car, but then lost control, as you see here, and crashed. The driver took off on foot. He was caught about a block away.
A student is suspended from medical school for describing himself as white, African-American. And the budget crisis in California leads to chaos in the state's education system.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Here again, Mr. Independent, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Welcome back.
A former New Jersey medical school student says he was mocked, assaulted simply for saying he's white, African-American. Paulo Serodio was born in the African country of Mozambique. He is a naturalized U.S. citizen now. Class mates and employees at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey apparently decided they were offended that Serodio, who is white, would call himself an African-American.
Incredibly, Serodio was suspended from the medical school for what they termed conduct unbecoming a student. Now Paulo Serodio is suing the school for discrimination and he joins me here tonight -- good to have you with us, Paulo -- along with his attorney Gregg Zeff -- good to have you both here.
Let's start with -- the class was cultural diversity. Is that correct?
SERODIO: That's correct.
DOBBS: And you described yourself as African, American, and white. And what was the reaction?
SERODIO: Well, we were all asked to describe ourselves in the broadest terms possible. And I described myself in the broadest terms possible. I am African because I was born in Africa. I was asked if I'm proud of being African I said, yes, it's in my heart.
DOBBS: What year of medical school were you?
SERODIO: This happened the first year. I completed my second.
DOBBS: How did this escalate a point on the class on cultural diversity would explode this into a reason to expel you from the school?
SERODIO: Well, that's my lawyer's job to find out. I don't know what happened.
DOBBS: You were there. How did the professor react? What happened? SERODIO: I was asked not to define myself as such. Never again. It was offensive to my classmates.
DOBBS: Who are African-American, who are black?
SERODIO: Who are people of all creeds, colors of skin and all ethnicities.
DOBBS: Why would that be offensive to them?
SERODIO: No, they have not. I think the people who were offended were not people of color. I spoke to many of them. Many were defensive. There was a group among them who was offended, perhaps politically, I don't know.
DOBBS: Do you believe sincerely offended?
SERODIO: I believe they may have been sincerely offended.
DOBBS: What was this group?
SERODIO: That would be Mr. Zeff's job to find out. I wasn't told. I was not allowed to face them directly. One of them came through and placed a complaint.
DOBBS: All right. Give us, Greg, your sense of who it was that was offended and who brought these charges and how in the world did you get here?
GREGG ZEFF, SERODIO'S ATTORNEY: I think the important thing to understand --
DOBBS: No.
ZEFF: Who brought the charges?
DOBBS: Yes.
ZEFF: Students brought the charges, and they were backed, we believe, by faculty. What you got to understand, this man was asked to back down. And the reason we're here, is because he didn't back down and he stood up for what he believed in, which is I have a right to say something on this issue and when he didn't --
DOBBS: You mean to tell me that Paulo, you took your first amendment rights, seriously.
SERODIO: I took my first amendment rights. I don't believe in the portion of defining myself as one thing. I believe I am what I am. I can't escape that.
DOBBS: I would say to you, god bless you and I commend you for doing the right thing. I got to say, I don't understand, one presumes that the University of Medicine and Dentistry in New Jersey, I should be clear, we invited their officials, administrators, president, please, the board of trustees, come down and talk to us here. I got to tell you, nothing you've done makes a lick of sense. We would be delighted to put your perspective forward here. They declined. So where are we here? How could they rationalize to anyone, in terms of academic freedom? In terms of first amendment, treating a man or woman this way in 2009?
ZEFF: You're absolutely right. That's why we're on your show. That's why we brought the lawsuit. He should be treated as a hero. Not as somebody who is suspended. He's a person stood up for what he wanted, he was asked to be quiet. Then he wrote a newspaper article about it to explain. There were students who said we're offended about this. You shouldn't be offended, I am African is what he said. Rather than saying, please, put this in print, explain yourself to us. Let's have a debate about this, they said no.
DOBBS: Did everyone ever explain to the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey that Teresa Heinz Kerry, the woman who had been first lady if her husband would have been elected president, Zee describes herself, also from Mozambique, as African-American?
ZEFF: I'm sure if they hadn't done that. If she were a student there she would be in trouble as well.
DOBBS: This is disturbing. Has anybody been here to support you? Fellow students? I know pressures and intensity of medical school. My good, is it left twisting in the wind here?
SERODIO: I had lots of support. This is an experience for me. I wanted to be an author. I raised a discussion among my class of 2009. Happily it got out of control. I got a lot of support, I myself learned by discussing with people who had opposite views. What failed in the whole process was administration, in my opinion, giving in to people, who really did not want to debate. I offered to debate. I offered to apologize if necessary. I apologized for any offense. But I cannot back down from being what I am.
DOBBS: If you apologize, what were you apologizing for?
SERODIO: For offending people in general.
DOBBS: By describing yourself as African-American?
SERODIO: I was instructed to do so. I was instructed to take cultural diversity course in order to understand other people's views, which I thought should be done during the process of debate. And, by the way, I am Teresa Heinz Kerry is a white African who belongs to a minority in the African country. All African countries have white minorities. They always had. I was part of a minority there. And I'm part of a minority here. Happily, minority is white, otherwise in African countries have sometimes been mistreated and that may be the case today with some African countries. I would hope in this country, they would not be, by defining themselves as African.
DOBBS: How soon do you move toward legal resolution?
ZEFF: It's going to be a long time. It will be sometime this year if we're lucky. DOBBS: So this school has not once reached out to you in a humanitarian, in a human way to say there's a way to resolve this and you can get on with your medical education?
SERODIO: No, I would like to go back -- I my purpose in going to medicine in my 40s was actually to join doctors. That was my dream for several years. I would like to go practice at this portion in Africa.
DOBBS: The school has not reached out to you in any way?
SERODIO: No, I felt the school officials were not, were not cooperative. They, at times, made it more difficult than it had to be.
DOBBS: Whom are they serving?
ZEFF: Right now they asked lawyers to get involved. They've told him to speak to their legal department rather than the deans.
DOBBS: Amazing. Paulo, it's -- I commend you. I mean, you're being very courageous here. These people don't deserve -- the people who run the University of Medical and Dentistry of New Jersey, I mean, these people, based on what you have said here, what we know of this case, this institution ought to be mortified. They owe you more than an apology. But that at least should be forthcoming. Paulo, we thank you for being here, we wish you the best. Gregg, thank you.
ZEFF: Thank you.
Turning to the state of chaos in California that state's budget crisis is turning to chaos in the state education system there. Teachers are taking to the streets, protesting, demanding they keep their jobs. Parents disgusted by a decline in that state want the budget schools fixed budget or not. Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Teachers in Los Angeles reacting to a judge's order blocking their planned one-day strike Friday over pending layoffs. The teacher's union claims this round of cuts is unnecessary.
LISA KARAHALIOUS, TEACHER: They don't spend their money wisely. There's plenty of other areas they can cut. UTLA found them a billion dollars in savings. Cutting positions that aren't need.
WIAN: Even the union acknowledges massive cuts are likely statewide if they reject budget measures next week as expected. Governor said predictions of $3.6 billion in new education cuts are not scare tactics.
GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: That means this money will come by laying off, for instance, 51,000 teachers, or shutting down every school in the state for 18 1/2 days. Or increasing class sizes by 17 percent, or laying off 90,000 support staff.
WIAN: In Los Angeles, new state figures show the official public school dropout rate has soared to nearly 35 percent. Some surveys have put the number even higher. Susan Kovinsky and Elisa Taub launched an advocacy group for parents in the Los Angeles public school system.
ELISA TAUB, THE LEMONADE INITIATIVE: What's at stake is good education for our kids. The system is declining for years. It's getting to the point where the crisis is imminent and something's going to happen.
WIAN: Their name taking from the same turning lemons into lemonade, they've soured on the deteriorating state of education in Los Angeles; teacher layoffs, program cults and infighting among school administrators, teacher's union and state lawmakers.
SUSAN KOVINSKY, THE LEMONADE INITIATIVE: UTLA has their issues, and the state has their issues they need to resolve and we're all our children have.
WIAN: One proposal, using federal stimulus money for education sooner to stop layoffs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The parents' group was formed just last week. Already, they are expecting thousands of parents at a rally this Friday. The same day the teachers were planning to strike. Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Casey. One can't help but wonder if the parents hadn't become more active far sooner, whether or not, perhaps, California wouldn't be in the bottom five in the nation in education. Thank you, Casey Wian.
Well, will the speaker of the house step up and tell the whole truth the way she expects apparently everyone else to? And a shocking example of the government at work paying to teach prostitutes how to drink responsibly, but not in this country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our government and our tax dollars at work. A university of Detroit -- university in Detroit was granted nearly $3 million to teach prostitutes and communist China very important lesson, how to drink responsibly Ines Ferre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: U.S. tax dollars used to educate prostitutes and their pimps in southern China on how responsible drinking can prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism granted $2.6 million to a researcher from Wayne State University in Detroit to conduct the study. During the last year, the NIAA had 170 projects related to alcohol use and HIV, 23 of them overseas, including one involving women in Cape Town South Africa and another in gay bars in Buenos Aires, Argentina. The institute says such studies allow them to see among other thing is tourists overseas being infected with HIV. Director of epidemiology added, if we only invested research in the U.S. we wouldn't be able to solve the problem. There's an international aspect of this that has to be looked at as well. Nonprofit national tax payers union which lobbies for lower taxes is outraged at the funding.
ANDREW MOYLAN, NATIONAL TAXPAYERS UNION: We have far more pressing needs in this country that we could use tax payer dollars on, or frankly give tax payer dollars back to the people that earned them so we help to stimulate the country. Those are the more pressing needs right now than these esoteric studies.
FERRE: Wayne State University received its grant last year before the stimulus bill gave the National Institute of Health $8.2 billion. NIAA seems likely to receive some of that stimulus money.
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FERRE: The main researcher on the Chinese prostitutes project is working on three other NIAA funded studies in China totaling more than $4 million. We tried interviewing him but the university told us he's traveled to China this week in connection with the study. Lou?
DOBBS: What in the world are these people thinking about? If they wanted to know the affect of liquor, they can walk into any bar, perhaps recall their own youth. They might have some sense testify is. This is bizarre.
FERRE: Some people are outraged by it. But they are saying there are different parts of the world, different conditions where they can study its effects --
DOBBS: The effects of what?
FERRE: The effects of alcohol and HIV in the area. That's what they're saying.
DOBBS: They're no good answer to that, is there? Thank you very much, Ines. But terrific reporting, we appreciate it.
Coming up at the top of the hour, "NO BIAS, NO BULL;" Roland Martin in for Campbell Brown.
Roland?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey Lou. Tonight we're digging deeper into the white house's reversal, some say flip flop on releasing new photos showing alleged abuse of detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Also ahead, it's been almost three months since President Barack Obama signed off on the $787 billion stimulus package to jump-start the economy but we're hearing a lot has yet to be spent. Coming up we'll find out where the money is going. Plus, is it time to repeal the military's don't ask, don't tell policy? It's tonight's hot topic. We'll get to that at the top of the hour. Lou, it's good to see a real man wear pink.
DOBBS: Thanks, Roland, looking forward to it.
President Obama could announce his Supreme Court nominee as early as neck week and also a Republican senator demanding house speaker Nancy Pelosi fess up.
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DOBBS: Joining me now Republican strategist, former white house political director, CNN political contributor, Ed Rollins; Ed, good to see you. Democratic strategist, also CNN contributor, Hank Sheinkopf; Hank, good to see you, and political analyst, regular contributor to the huffingtonpost, Keli Goff and president and founder of the Holland Balance Group, Michael Holland; Michael, good to have you here.
We've seen reversal in the economy. We've got all sorts of folks focusing on disparate, issues. This administration today making a major reversal, Hank. What's your take?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I don't like a lot of things I see. I worry that small business people are going to feel some panic, people who want to advance themselves in the economic situation will feel some panic. I think talking about a capping, the kind of money people are able to earn in the private sector is not a good move. It's just not good for this country.
DOBBS: Let me remind everybody Hank Sheinkopf is a different political strategist. And well known, well respected and well liked.
SHEINKOPF: It is extraordinary that the center of the political spectrum which is where we've tried to govern and Democrats try to get to is being shifted with the argument somehow in a period of economic crisis, populism in that style will prevail and voters aren't happy about it.
DOBBS: Ed?
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You're getting to a point you can't afford programs thrown out there. More and more apparent by the day. Obviously it's too soon to know if they work. Most of us think it won't work. But I think there's this rush to get things done. Speaker today promising to get health care through by the recess. That's ridiculous. This is a major, major overhaul of the largest part of the economy. Not to take the time and do it right is absurd.
KELI GOFF, THE HUFFINGTON POST: In all fairness to the current administration, the current administration is not the one who got us into our budget hole in the first place.
ROLLINS: Wait a second. How about the last two years of congress? The budget we have today is passed by the congress. President puts the budget up, says it's going to cost things and congress in control by the Democrats the last two years.
GOFF: One thing you won't see me do is unfairly defend Nancy Pelosi. I'm not here to do that in any stretch of the administration.
DOBBS: You here for the Obama administration?
GOFF: That's a pretty fair characterization. The funniest thing about this congress and all the things that they decide to take upon themselves, the demonstration aside to push through is that here they are gloating about the fact that according to Gallop, they had an all- time high in the last several years of what is it? 30 percent? Which is not a mandate make. I mean 30 percent? They think that's somehow --
DOBBS: We have a poll today on Wall Street and another reversal on Wall Street. How are the markets? How are investors reacting to this? Hank raised the issue of small business. We're starting, it seems to me to send angst surrounding this.
MICHAEL HOLLAND, CHAIRMAN, HOLLAND & COMPANY: One of the big drops today in the stock market was in finances. This commentary coming out of Washington where they're talking about doing wage controls on financial services industry, this doesn't sit very well with people who invest in those companies. They think maybe the people who are there might go somewhere else, like the foreign banks or set up their own -- it destroys some of the debt for the big move we've had in the last several weeks. One of the reasons we had this huge move was because people said the world was not coming to an end. But now they're taking a look at the world where we reset. As Hank was saying, maybe it ain't so good.
SHEINKOPF: Politics, Lou, the president needs to show as much action as possible and he's got a congress going along with them, but only in certain ways. He's got a temper, more conservative populous leanings than they want. Question is, what's the difference? They're running for re-election in the House of Representatives next year, he's not.
HOLLAND: Some of those actions are scaring the hell out of Wall Street.
SHEINKOPF: Absolutely true.
GOFF: And the funniest part is did you see the official who said we're not seeking to micromanage, the specifics, particulars, we're looking to cap compensation and tell people who they can hire or not hire. We're not looking to micromanage.
DOBBS: Are you reassured?
ROLLINS: I'm not reassured at all. I'm very concerned. As Obama said many, many times, they want to push their agenda. At the end of the day it's our tax dollars, country's future. It scares me. Someone's been around government a long time.
DOBBS: We'll be back with our panel in just a moment. A lot of issues to touch on and resolve. We'll have our poll results. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
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DOBBS: We're back with our panel. I just got to turn and ask. Today, Speaker Pelosi saying they're going to move forward with health care. They just need another $90 billion a year. And with some sort of -- well, very vague $2 trillion which got headlines everywhere. What do you think? Another $100 billion a year, does it matter to Wall Street?
HOLLAND: It's your money.
DOBBS: I wish it were. It's our money.
HOLLAND: Yeah, it's scary. Hank was talking about it before. They keep throwing these things out. It's breathtaking.
DOBBS: Steny Hoyer decided he wanted all of the facts concerning what everybody knew about harsh interrogation techniques. Today he wants the facts just not the facts surrounding Nancy Pelosi. What do you think, Mike?
HOLLAND: That it continues to be undercutting any of our competence in anything coming out of Washington. The stuff coming out now gets scarier by the day.
SHEINKOPF: It undercuts the president. The president is trying to create moral argument for activity throughout the world using torture as the means to get there. Talk about torture thing, may have done right or wrong. They undercut him by doing that.
GOFF: Concerning high school very fast. It's a debate who heard what. It's less important than what they said. It's ridiculous. I think Nancy Pelosi is treading to "I did not have sex with that woman" splitting hairs how she found out what.
ROLLINS: She was one of the four of those, so she does bear a very significant responsibility for what went out.
SHEINKOPF: Facts are out there.
ROLLINS: Facts are out there.
DOBBS: Facts come anything in the markets and this economy. It seems like every day, we have -- every wire service story has unexpected decline, unexpected increase. One thing we're not expecting that much from this economy. Are we pleasantly surprised?
HOLLAND: No.
DOBBS: I had to ask that question.
HOLLAND: Numbers came out today. Consumers we're hoping --
GOFF: This weekend. Consumer splurging is up. I did some this weekend. HOLLAND: There's a little bit of good news out there. Unfortunately today we got some bad news out of China which is dragging us out of this a little bit. That's not good.
DOBBS: You're not referring to the fact that we found another Chinese communist spy?
HOLLAND: No, their economy is not moving forward. It's going to take a while. It's back to we got a new reset.
DOBBS: Folks, appreciate it very much. Thanks so much.
Our poll results tonight, 87 percent of you agree with President Obama's decision to stop the release of those detainee photos.
A reminder to join me on the radio, Monday through Friday for the Lou Dobbs Show 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. each and every afternoon on WOR 710 Radio in New York City and all around the country. Go to loudobbsradio.com to get the local listings in your area for the Lou Dobbs Show.
We thank you for being with us tonight and please join us here tomorrow. For all of us, we thank you for watching.
Good night from New York. "NO BIAS. NO BULL starts right now." In for Campbell Brown, Roland Martin.
Roland?
