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Lou Dobbs Tonight
New Outbreak; Pelosi under Fire; War on Drugs; Auto Task Force under Fire
Aired May 14, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: A new outbreak of the swine flu in New York. We'll have complete coverage for you tonight of this breaking story.
Also, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi finally admitting she knew about waterboarding as long ago as 2003 and in a tense news conference today on Capitol Hill the speaker struggled to answer charges she is still failing to provide a full account of what she knew and when.
And rising questions about the Catholic Church's policy on priests and celibacy, after a priest in Miami admitted having an affair. That's our "Face-Off" tonight.
And a startling new example of political correctness by the Obama administration -- the new drug czar saying he wants to ban the phrase "war on drugs".
We begin tonight with breaking news. Reports of a major escalation in the swine flu outbreak in New York City -- an assistant school principal has reported to be critically ill tonight. Three public schools have been closed; New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has just held a news conference on this outbreak -- Kitty Pilgrim now with the very latest for us.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is what is being called the most serious case of swine flu in New York City. Three schools in Queens being closed for a week; an assistant principal of a Queens middle school has been hospitalized is said to be critical ill. Now, what is very important here is he may have had a pre-existing medical condition.
The school is intermediate school 238 in the Hollace (ph) section of Queens. Now three schools in Queens are closing until next Friday that are altogether enrolling about 4,500 students.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: H1N1 has been documented in four schools -- students at IS-238 as well as in a staff member at the school, who is critically ill. More than 50 students have been sent home from this school with flu-like symptoms since Wednesday, May 6th. At IS-5, 241 students were reported absent today, and at PS-16, 29 students were documented with influenza-like illnesses in the nurse's room today.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PILGRIM: Now, as of this morning, the Centers for Disease Control have identified 4,298 confirmed and probable cases of swine flu in the United States. There have been three deaths, two in Texas and one in Washington State. And, Lou, Mayor Bloomberg says that while most cases of swine flu in Queens, it is in all five boroughs of New York right now.
DOBBS: Yeah, this is troubling, because some medical authorities are saying that this may be evidence with the critically ill assistant principal tonight -- some saying, in fact, he is near death and still remains unidentified by the school authorities or the mayor's office. That this may indicate the swine flu strain has mutated again into something that is perhaps, hopefully not, but perhaps more virulent.
PILGRIM: They were asked that question, and they say they are monitoring it very closely, when you have 241 kids calling in sick in one school district, that's quite a few.
DOBBS: It's quite a few. It's also troubling, because we know that in many parts of the country, the authorities have quit monitoring and screening for swine flu. So, let's hope that this is -- well, an isolated and contained incident. Thank you very much, Kitty. We'll have a great deal more on this latest developments in the swine flu outbreak here later in the broadcast. We'll be joined by Dr. Martin Blaser. He is a leading expert in this country on infectious diseases. He'll join us.
Turning now to Capitol Hill -- House Speaker Nancy Pelosi held a very uncomfortable and often awkward news conference today on Capitol Hill. Speaker Pelosi today acknowledged, for the first time, that she knew six years ago about the CIA's use of waterboarding against al Qaeda suspects. The speaker, who says she's a strong opponent of torture, struggled to explain why she did not protest to the CIA or to the Bush administration about waterboarding.
In that news conference, Speaker Pelosi tried to shift the controversy about waterboarding away from what she knew and when to the CIA. She accused the CIA today, for the first time, of misleading Congress about its interrogation techniques and again called for a so- called truth commission. Dana Bash, who was at the speaker's news conference today, has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Under fire over whether she's been up front about knowing harsh tactics like waterboarding were being used, the House speaker tried to turn the tables, accusing the CIA of lying to her.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: We are not using waterboarding. That's the only mention that they were not using it. And we now know that earlier they were. So, yes, I am saying that they are misleading, that the CIA was misleading the Congress.
BASH: Pelosi was referring to a September 2002 meeting, her only one with CIA officials. But the speaker also admitted for the first time that five months later, in February 2003, one of her aides attended a briefing and was told interrogators were using harsh tactics. The aide informed Pelosi.
PELOSI: He said that the -- that committee chair, ranking member, and appropriate staff had been briefed that these techniques were now being used.
BASH: Jane Harman, then top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, wrote a letter objecting. Why didn't Pelosi?
PELOSI: No letter could change the policy. It was clear we had to change the leadership in Congress and in the White House. That was my job.
BASH: This fiery Pelosi press conference was about damage control, but she started to walk away before addressing her apparent contradiction.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: May I ask one last question?
BASH: If she was told in February of 2003 that waterboarding was being used, why didn't she admit that in a press conference on the subject last month?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The idea that we got from you was that you were never told that waterboarding was being used, but now we know that later in February you were told, it wasn't in that briefing, but you were told so...
PELOSI: No, by the time we were told we are finding out that it's been used before -- you know in other words, that was beyond the point.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But why didn't you tell us at that April press conference...
PELOSI: And I told you what my briefing was...
(CROSSTALK)
PELOSI: My briefing was...
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: ... press conference that you had been told just not at that particular briefing.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You were very adamant that you didn't know that waterboarding was being used.
PELOSI: No. That is right. The point is, is that I wasn't briefed, I was told -- informed that someone else had been briefed about it.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BASH: Now, the CIA today said that they are standing by their records, which do indicate that the speaker, Nancy Pelosi, was, in fact, briefed on harsh techniques. That, of course, contradicts what the speaker said today. Now, as for Republicans, Lou, they are hammering her. They say that not only are her stories changing, they say it was inappropriate for her to accuse the CIA of lying.
DOBBS: Well Dana, I want to say, first of all, outstanding job today. You're doing what every journalist is proud to see done, pursuing the story and doing it so relentlessly and absolutely professionally, so we thank you for your great work as always, Dana Bash. Dana, we're -- obviously, we've got so many questions here. We're going to ask Dana to come back and rejoin us to further deal with this story. Dana, again, great work and we thank you.
BASH: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: The timeline of what happened with waterboarding and what the speaker of the House says she knew about it indicates that this controversy is now far from ended. In August of 2002, a Justice Department memo shows the CIA used waterboarding more than 80 times on al Qaeda leader, Abu Zubaydah, while he was in a detention center in Guantanamo Bay.
A month later, in September of 2002, Congresswoman Pelosi said she received a CIA briefing on so-called enhanced interrogation techniques. But she insisted she was not told that waterboarding was actually being used. Then in February of 2003, Pelosi's intelligence aide told the speaker that waterboarding was indeed being used by the CIA.
This, after the Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and the ranking Democrat attended a new CIA briefing. Six years later, in a news conference on April 23rd, Speaker Pelosi said this...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: I repeat, we were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Today, the speaker admitted that she knew six years ago that waterboarding was being used. Today, she accused Republicans of trying to cause what she called a distraction. But House Minority Leader John Boehner said her comments, quote, "continue to raise more questions than provide answers."
We'd like to know what you think about all of this. Our poll question tonight is -- do you believe Speaker Pelosi is telling the truth about what she knew about waterboarding and when? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results, of course, here later in the broadcast.
The CIA tonight is also involved in a dispute with former Vice President Dick Cheney. Cheney had asked the CIA to declassify memos that he says will show that harsh interrogation methods did produce valuable intelligence on al Qaeda. However, today, the CIA denied Cheney's request and said those documents are subject to pending litigation and, therefore, they cannot release them.
Former Bush White House adviser Karl Rove tonight faces new questions about the abrupt dismissal of eight U.S. attorneys by the Bush administration back in 2006. Special prosecutor Nora Dennehy (ph) will interview Rove tomorrow. She is leading a criminal investigation into whether any Bush administration officials broke any laws in connection with the dismissals of those eight U.S. attorneys.
The latest on the new swine flu outbreak in New York City and outrage after a top Obama administration official says we should no longer use the phrase "war on drugs".
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The new drug czar is turning the war on drugs into a war on words. The Obama administration apparently using changes in language to support its political agenda and initiatives; the president's drug czar today saying he wants to stop using the phrase "war on drugs" because it could be misleading. Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The idea of a national war on drugs was first posed by President Nixon and has endured through a half dozen subsequent administrations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The war on drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: War on drugs.
WIAN: But here comes change from the day new drug czar Gil Kerlikowske's nomination was announced by Vice President Biden, the former Seattle police chief has avoided the phrase "war on drugs."
GIL KIRLIKOWSE, DIR., NAT'L DRUG CONTROL POLICY: I want to thank the vice president for his commitment for combating drugs, coordinated, comprehensive national drug strategy -- the fight against drugs.
WIAN: Now Kerlikowske tells "The Wall Street Journal," quote, "regardless of how you try to explain to people it's a war on drugs or a war on product people see a war as a war on them. We're not at war with people in this country." His predecessor says that sends a troubling message.
JOHN WALTERS, FMR. DIR., NAT'L DRUG CONTROL POLICY: When I look back over the last 30 years, the drug problem is particularly sensitive to the attitudes that society seems to have about whether it's serious. I think the biggest concern I have is the administration is not engaged in way that shows it gets it on this issue. WIAN: The Obama administration has sent mixed signals. The drug czar's position has been downgraded to below cabinet level. The White House is proposing a nearly four percent cut in the office of National Drug Control Policy's budget to about $423 million next year. But the administration's overall drug-control budget allocates more than $15 billion, a 1.5 percent increase.
More than four million Americans are addicted to drugs, according to the National Drug Policy Institute and the California Department of Health. Illegal drug use and HIV/AIDS from drug users sharing needles kills 12,000 Americans annually. In California alone, drug abuse costs society $13 billion in lost productivity, health care, treatment, and law enforcement. All along the southwest border, drug cartel violence threatens local communities, while in Mexico it's killed nearly 11,000 people in two and a half years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The Office of National Drug Control Policy did not respond to our request for comment. The drug czar has stated in the past that he does not favor drug legalization. Lou?
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Casey. Casey Wian.
Disputing the term "war on drugs" is just the latest in a series of efforts to control language for the Obama administration on issues important to its agenda. We've reported here on how political correctness seems to be taking hold of the federal government under the Obama administration.
For example, the Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano replaced the word "terrorism" with her phrase, quote, "man- caused disaster". The Pentagon exchanged the term "war on terror" with new wording "overseas contingency operations". Currently the Council on Environmental Quality is meeting with a marketing group that is pushing for a new phrase that in their minds would be a more effective alternative to the phrase "global warming". And we've been hearing this one a lot lately "enhanced interrogation techniques" which the Bush administration used to replace and some say redefine one word, torture.
Tonight, the former president of Mexico tells CNN it might be a good idea to legalize drugs. In an interview with CNN International, former Mexican President Vicente Fox said current drug policies just aren't working.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICENTE FOX, FORMER MEXICAN PRESIDENT: Fighting violence with violence is not necessarily the answer. I did use different instruments, and I still think that today we should open the debate on legalization of drugs. I think it should be open in this court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Fox added any changes in the law would have to be approved, of course, by the U.S. government because he says the United States is such a large consumer of drugs that come from Latin America.
An update on this latest outbreak of swine flu -- a teacher is in critical condition tonight and the fallout from a Miami priest whose love affair was exposed -- a "Face-Off" over the issue of priests and celibacy next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Harsh criticism tonight aimed at the government task force that oversees the ailing automobile industry. Billions of taxpayer dollars have been spent, and yet General Motors and Chrysler are closing more and more plants. Has the task force been effective or has it only succeeded in spending your taxpayer dollars? Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We know the why.
REP. THADDEUS MCCOTTER (R), MICHIGAN: We know the critical component of our economy is manufacturing. And we know that that manufacturing economy is premised upon the domestic auto industry.
SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW (D), MICHIGAN: We created this industry. And it's incredibly important that we do everything possible to keep it strong and viable.
TUCKER: But some who strongly support the bailout are critical of the treasury's auto task force and its efforts to keep the industry strong.
SCOTT PAUL, ALLIANCE OF AMER. MANUFACTURERS: There's too much Wall Street and not enough Main Street in the auto task force. You have members of the auto task force who have spent the majority of their careers either in classrooms or dealing with Wall Street bankers and not dealing with the real economy on Main Street and on the factory floor.
TUCKER: The question is, are we saving an industry? See it shrink here and produce more elsewhere? So far taxpayers have committed more than $30 billion to automakers, a number that is certain to increase by everyone's expectations. In return, GM is talking about importing cars from its plants in Korea, China, and Mexico.
And Warren (ph) said a bankruptcy filing at the beginning of June is looking ever more likely. Chrysler, already in bankruptcy, and announcing it will close a quarter of all its dealerships. One of the initial critics of the industry bailout admits it looks ugly and says government really shouldn't be involved but...
SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: The task force, even though they shouldn't be doing what they're doing through government, is doing some things. They are doing some things, excuse me that are very beneficial to causing these companies to be healthy into the future.
TUCKER: A sentiment that is shared by a longtime industry analyst.
GEORGE MEGLIANO, IHS GLOBAL INSIGHT: At the end of the day, this money is well spent. We'll be spending more money if they walked in to court and this dragged on for a long period of time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: So oddly enough the prevailing opinion seems to be that what taxpayers have bought with these $30.6 billion is a more orderly process, and Lou, it's one that everyone feels staved off certain insolvency at Chrysler.
DOBBS: How many jobs have been lost? How many more jobs will be lost and what has $30 billion bought the American taxpayer?
TUCKER: A more orderly process -- a process...
DOBBS: An orderly process?
TUCKER: Well people say...
DOBBS: An orderly process?
TUCKER: Well...
DOBBS: Thirty billion dollars worth of orderly? All right, Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
Other stories we're following across the country tonight -- new details about the deadly plane crash in Buffalo. Hearings on Capitol Hill have revealed just how much Colgan Air is paying its pilots. Copilots making around $24,000 a year; their pilots make about $67,000 a year. One airline expert says those salaries force pilots to live far from their base of operations and require long commutes as a result. Transportation officials say fatigue may have been a factor in the crash that killed 50 people in February.
Pharmaceutical giant Pfizer today announced a new free prescription drug program for people who have lost their jobs. People who have lost their jobs this year and have been using a Pfizer drug for at least three months qualify for the program -- Pfizer offering 70 of its drugs in the program, including Viagra and Lipitor for up to a year.
In Charlotte, Olympic gold medallist Michael Phelps will swim in his first race since his three-month suspension ended. USA swimming suspended Phelps after a photo was published showing him apparently smoking marijuana. Phelps is scheduled to swim in five events starting tomorrow.
New controversy over Speaker Nancy Pelosi after a tense news conference today on Capitol Hill and a new swine flu outbreak in New York City; what it could mean for the entire country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Here again, Mr. Independent, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Welcome back.
Breaking news tonight on a new swine flu outbreak -- three New York City public schools have been closed after a number of students tested positive for swine flu. An assistant principal has been hospitalized and tonight is reportedly critically ill.
Joining me now is Dr. Martin Blaser. He's the chair of the Department of Medicine at New York University School of Medicine, one of the country's leading experts on infectious diseases -- Doctor, good to have you with us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Mayor Bloomberg held a news conference. Everyone is very concerned, obviously. Three schools, several hundred students appear to be sickened with the swine flu in this most recent outbreak. What is your best guess at this early point as to what's going on?
DR. MARTIN BLASER, NY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: I think this is -- this is all part of the whole outbreak, since in the last two and a half weeks, the flu has been spreading initially in one state, then three states, then 10. Now it's in 47 states. There are more than 4,000 confirmed cases all across this country.
DOBBS: Yeah.
BLASER: And for every confirmed case there are many, many more other cases that are not confirmed. So, it's spreading. It's now in 33 countries in the world and so the pandemic is spreading. Still it's been pretty mild. And, of course, this is alarming. We don't know if this is the beginning of some bad cases or just the spread to thousands and thousands of people.
DOBBS: And with this assistant principal being, according to one account, in fact, not only critically, but near death tonight -- let us hope not -- that there's some concern that this is what many of the infectious disease experts, the CDC, the NIH all had feared is that this might mutate into something more virulent than what we had experienced thus far -- your thoughts on that?
BLASER: It's possible, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. What we know is that in a normal flu year about one in 1,000 people who get the flu die. That's every year.
DOBBS: Right.
BLASER: Year in and year out. Now we have 4,000 confirmed cases. We've had three confirmed deaths, so we're right around one in 1,000. And so at this point it's no worse than ordinary flu, but it's the kind of thing -- this one is spreading very rapidly in the U.S. and around the world. It's got to be watched.
DOBBS: And it's spreading, Doctor, is it not, at a time when typically flu would be abating because it's becoming warmer and moving, if you will, to a season in which flu is no longer prevalent?
BLASER: Yeah. And one of the things that will help is when school is out and kids disperse. That will also quiet things down. I think one of the things that we don't know is that we have much better surveillance for flu than we ever did, and how much of this is because we're watching more closely. But I think it's more than that. It's more than just good surveillance. It -- this is spreading. It's not -- it's -- it's not abiding by all the rules.
DOBBS: It's not abiding by the rules and just we are learning that a lot of places, they're not screening for swine flu when people come in with symptoms, we -- therefore they can't be reporting. So, this could be significantly more widespread. Not speaking to the issue of virulence, but certainly it's -- it is prevalent around the country and spreading despite the fact that we're not seeing it a lot -- a lot of screening or a lot of screening dropped.
BLASER: Yeah. This is -- this is how flu spreads. And when you have a new strain, it spreads even faster because there are no -- there's no barrier of immunity. There's not much immunity here.
DOBBS: I suppose we should conclude by reminding everybody to wash their hands and to -- and to I think the expression is cough into your elbow...
BLASER: Right. The best thing is if somebody's sick, go home. If there -- if a child is sick, don't send them to school. If somebody doesn't feel well, don't go to work. That's the best way we can all help everybody's health.
DOBBS: And I hadn't thought of what you'd just said, but getting our kids out of school will also be a positive.
BLASER: Yeah, the end of the school year.
DOBBS: Right. Good. Thank you very much, Dr. Martin Blaser. Appreciate it. I didn't mean that anybody shouldn't go to school. I didn't mean that at all. Doctor, thank you very much.
On Capitol Hill, House Speaker Pelosi today struggling to answer specific, energetic questions about how much she knew about the CIA's use of waterboarding. CNN's very own Dana Bash hammering Speaker Pelosi on that issue, as the speaker tried to end that news conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The idea that we got from you is that you were never told that water boarding was being used, but now we know that later in February you were told. It wasn't in that briefing, but you were told. So ...
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) HOUSE SPEAKER: No, by the time we were told, we are finding out that it's been used before. You know, in other words that was beyond the point.
BASH: But why didn't you tell us at that April press conference?
PELOSI: I told you what the briefing was. The briefing was ...
BASH: You had been told just not at that particular briefing. You seemed very adamant that you didn't know waterboarding was used.
PELOSI: No. That's right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: For more now on the speaker's struggle to explain what she knew and when about waterboarding, I'm joined by our senior congressional correspondent Dana Bash, senior White House correspondent Ed Henry and senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley. Candy, if I may begin with you. You talked with the speaker in which she got extraordinarily flummoxed as you tried to focus in and to elicit from her very direct and specific information. This is not getting any better for the speaker, is it?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. And as evidence of that, she had this news conference today, which surely she knew that this was going to come up, because she had the statement. And so, you know, obviously she has been on the losing end of this in the P.R. wars, not sure she did herself a lot of good today, after we saw the Republicans come out and say, well now we have more questions. And since we know from Dana's questioning now, of course, that she did know about six years ago that waterboarding was going on, when did she speak out? And that's where it seems to me the Republicans are beginning to focus. OK, if you did know or if you did suspect, when did you object?
DOBBS: Dana, as I said, at the outset, your reporting here, outstanding. And the speaker, not able to -- or at least not willing to -- directly respond. But I'd like to ask you about another mystery in that briefing today. A reporter who interjected a question from left field in the midst of that obvious effort on the part of the press corps there on Capitol Hill to get to the truth. A question that received a strong reaction, a surprising reaction, from that room full of journalists. Let's take a look, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts, your reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: On health care.
PELOSI: Yes.
QUESTION: Do House Democrats have the -- I'm sorry.
PELOSI: Did you get booed? Did I hear you get booed?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: He was booed before he could even complete the question. Your reaction? BASH: Look, first of all, we don't even know who that is, myself and Deidre Walsh, our producer up here, we've been trying to find out, he's not a regular in the press corps on Capitol Hill. But this actually was her weekly press conference and this was the chance for people that cover her to ask her about any topic, obviously, Lou, the big topic that all of us were interested in is her back and forth about what she knew about the harsh interrogation techniques. This reporter clearly came in with a specific question on health care. He was determined to answer it, but you're right ...
DOBBS: By God, he was going to get a -- he was going to get it asked anyway.
BASH: Exactly.
DOBBS: Well, let me turn now to our colleague, Ed Henry, over at the White House. Ed, the president's got to feel good about his initial position on looking forward rather than backward when it came to the issue of prosecuting Bush administration officials. He now has been contending with the left in part represented by Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, in demanding so much more and her call for a Truth Commission sounds, well, how? How does that sound at the White House now?
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are very much trying to keep a distance from a Truth Commission or even an outside panel. At one point the president had sounded a few weeks back, as you're noting, receptive of the idea of a 9/11-style panel and now it's clear from senior White House officials that he really doesn't want something like that. They are hoping to sort of turn the page on all of this. Because you can see they're essentially being pulled in directions they don't want to go the more that the war on terror is being discussed. You see Nancy Pelosi flummoxed, you see the White House yesterday taking a beating from liberal allies on trying to block the photos of prison abuse. This is not what they want to talk about. They want to talk about the economy, health care, et cetera, and every time this is coming up now, you see former Vice President Dick Cheney, sort of shifting the debate in a way that the White House is not exactly comfortable with.
However, having said all of that and the discomfort for some Democrats, the fact is the focus should probably still be back on the what the Bush administration here at the White House did before, not necessarily -- it's an important part of this discussion what Nancy Pelosi knew, when she knew it, et cetera, but the core is, you know, who within the Bush administration approved this. Was it legal or not? And unfortunately for the Democrats, they've let this debate shift in a whole another direction that is not good for them right now.
DOBBS: Not good for them, Candy. This is -- this is looking as though the Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill has snatched defeated from the jaws of victory. What do you think?
CROWLEY: Well, there are a couple things going on here. First of all, if Democratic leaders, or anyone on the Intelligence Committees that are Democrats knew about this well ahead of time, it certainly dilutes whatever they find out about what the Bush administration knew. It also undermines Nancy Pelosi's power, if it continues on. But I think we saw today exactly what the Obama administration doesn't want. It's a huge distraction. The president was out in New Mexico, talking about consumer and credit cards, and meanwhile everybody was watching Nancy Pelosi to see what this latest story was and what she would say about it. That's what the white house doesn't want to have happen.
DOBBS: Your response, Ed, there?
HENRY: Candy's exactly right. The president did want to talk about a credit card bill of rights. He wants Congress to get it done by Memorial Day. That's a very important issue right now, putting aside any party labels. There's a lot of people hurting right now with credit card interest rates going over 20 percent. They can't make payments, but instead the story line, that didn't really break through. Not a lot of people were talking about it, instead a lot of people are talking about Nancy Pelosi being flummoxed. I think, in fairness, though, we should also point out that various Democrats, we were not in the room for the briefings, have pointed out, not just Nancy Pelosi but Bob Graham and others have said they only get general information in these meetings, they really don't get all the details. It's really hard years later to figure out exactly what a she knew in the briefings and whether they told her everything and I'm sure Dana knows more about that.
DOBBS: Perhaps - I'm sorry, go ahead, Dana.
BASH: I was going to say, to that point, I think that's one of the more interesting things that came out today, you saw -- you're hearing Ed talk about the fact that Senator Bob Graham who at the time was a top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, he told me just last month that he didn't know anything about this, and he said that the CIA is basically also making it up if they say that they told him about these techniques and you really are getting very, very different reactions and recollections from these Democrats. Than you're getting from Republicans about what they were told, and that is, you know, something that we probably aren't going to be able to find out the truth, unless these transcripts of these briefings are actually released. And Nancy Pelosi said release them today. That will be another interesting to see if that actually happens.
DOBBS: Hopefully she won't be as disappointed as was the former vice president today by the CIA. Again, Dana. Thank you very much. Ed Henry from the White House, Candy Crowley thank you very much. Appreciate it, guys.
A Miami priest love affair exposed. The controversy reigniting debate over celibacy and the priesthood in the Catholic Church.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The scandal arising from an affair between a well-known, popular Miami priest and a woman has reignited the debate over celibacy and the priesthood. Father Alberto Cutie who has a large Hispanic following throughout the hemisphere, admitted the affair after photos showing him and a woman embracing were published. Father Cutie was removed from his position in the Miami Archdiocese following the disclosure.
The controversy over requiring priests to be sell bait is the topic of our debate tonight in "Face Off." Joining me now is the Reverend George Rutler. Father Rutler supports mandatory celibacy for priests. Father, good to have you with us. Also joining us, Reverend Anthony Padovano. He is married priest who says the church should relax its celibacy rules. We thank you for being with us.
REV. ANTHONY PADOVANO, MARRIED PRIEST: Thank you.
DOBBS: Let me turn, father, first to you, the reason Catholic priests are celibate, is it a matter of dogma, is it fundamental to the church's being?
REV. GEORGE RUTLER, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW YORK: It's a matter of church law, but that doesn't mean it's arbitrary in the sense that it's just a manmade law without purpose. The law of the church has to be rooted in a philosophy and understanding of man. So, the laws of celibacy are rooted really in the apostolic tradition of the church and basically in the example of Christ himself. How it's been enacted through the centuries has varied. But that's the primary reference, the example of Christ himself.
DOBBS: Reverend, your thoughts and your reasons for thinking it should not be mandatory, celibacy?
PADOVANO: Celibacy does not come from Christ. The church had a married priesthood until 1139, which was more than half of its history, because it knew that Christ did not give that kind of a mandate. The apostles were married. St. Paul says around the year 55, before even the first gospel was written, some 25 years after Jesus' death, that Peter and the apostles traveled regularly with their wives on missionary journeys. He mentions that in his letter to the Corinthians.
So, because of there were married bishops and there were married popes until about the ninth century. And actually there's been a 2000-year, unbroken tradition of a married priesthood because the Eastern churches, the Orthodox churches, that broke in 1054, continued that particular policy.
I think celibacy is valuable. I also think marriage is valuable. And I think to force people to choose one rather than the other does not recognize the value of women or the value of marriage or even the value of celibacy, which I think would be attractive without it being mandatory. It makes sense, but I don't think it makes sense as a mandatory thing. Nor do I think mandatory marriage is a good idea.
I think the ultimate judgment of a priest's behavior should be how he deals with people, whether he brings them hope, whether he is able to heal and be compassionate. If marriage brings him there, so be it. That's wonderful. If the celibacy brings him there, then that should be the choice that he makes. RUTLER: Well, first of all, I mean, the history you've given is totally wrong. The council you're talking about, Elvira, referring to Elvira, 307, first codified celibacy and referred to it as the apostolic tradition. It was a council, the first lettering council and it was 1123, not '39. And it referred to these earlier councils. Referred to Elvira. It referred to the Synods of Mainz and Mets (ph), 88 (ph). You did have some evidence of celibacy after that, in -- in Europe, but only it was imposed by the government. The pope, Pope Sergius, rejected that. But the apostolic tradition was very clear right through.
DOBBS: To the point the reverend makes, the fact is the test should be how well a priest tends to his parishioners, to the requirements of the calling, what -- just basic, irrespective of the history, irrespective of the interpretation of the history. We know that Catholic priests for half the life of the church have been -- have been married, for about half not. The difference in the quality of the church, its role, its strength as a result?
RUTLER: Well, you have to make a distinction, first of all, between marriage and the use of marriage.
DOBBS: Between marriage and ...
RUTLER: And the use of marriage. As far as we know even with the apostles who were married, there's no evidence that they maintained normal family life after Pentecost. There's no tradition for instance of a hereditary apostolate.
DOBBS: Reverend?
PADOVANO: A few things, the Council of Elvira was a regional council of Spain in the fourth century. It didn't have any universal appeal. 1139 Lateran II was the one that finally it said that priests had to be from that point forward celibate. But there's no doubt about the fact that the apostles continued with their wives, because St. Paul makes that clear. Furthermore, what kind of a person would Jesus have been if he required these men to leave their wives and children? What does that say about the commitment of marriage? What does that say about the value of women? What does that say about the responsibility of a man who is father of those children? Jesus did not move in those directions.
Now, again, I would defer to George and to celibacy on the idea that in its proper place, it is valuable. And it makes sense. But you cannot have mandatory celibacy, I would maintain, although this is not your intent, you cannot have that without devaluing women. And without devaluing sexuality and marriage if you say that any church leader of any real significance must be celibate, you've made a judgment about women that I think is deleterious.
DOBBS: Reverend, thank you very much, Reverend Padovano, we appreciate it and Father, we thank you. I wish we had more time. I'm learning an awful lot from both of you.
RUTLER: ... starting. DOBBS: And we've also very quickly finished. We thank you.
RUTLER: My voice is about to give out. I hope I'm not getting the pig flu. Anyway ...
DOBBS: We're politically correct here, swine flu. Thank you very much.
Coming up at the top of the hour, CNN special "Money & Main Street" with Anderson Cooper. Anderson
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Lou, thank you very much.
Tonight, the economy, the way it looks on Main Street America. We're live in towns across the country, in California, Nebraska, North Carolina, New Jersey, towns bearing the brunt of the housing collapse, factory closings, massive changes everywhere. We're live holding virtual town hall meetings, we're listening to people coping with the recession and surviving, finding out how they're doing. Many are suffering, some are thriving, though, all are adapting the best they can to a world they've never seen before.
We're live across America, nonstop online. And here in New York with a distinguished panel, the best political and economic minds. Ali Velshi and I bring you a CNN "Money" summit, "Money & Main Street", that's all at the top of the hour, Lou.
DOBBS: Looking forward to it, thank you, Anderson.
The U.S. military is investigating the shooting of five of our soldiers in Iraq by an Army sergeant. The family of the soldier who shot his comrades offering prayers to families of his victims.
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DOBBS: Serious questions about the mental toll on our troops after a U.S. soldier shot and killed five of his comrades at a stress clinic in Baghdad Monday. Sergeant John Russell served three tours in Iraq. He was scheduled to fly home in a matter of a few weeks. His father now says the Army wanted to drive him out. That the stress clinic ultimately led him to snap.
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WILBURN RUSSELL, FATHER OF SGT. JOHN RUSSELL: It broke him. They probably told him things like, you're an idiot. You don't belong in the military. That's his whole life. He's ruined. He's going to lose his house. He's going to lose income, lose requirement, everything. He's got no recourse.
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DOBBS: The sergeant's son says the shooting was a shock to the entire family and he felt terrible for all the families of his father's victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN RUSSELL, SON OF SGT. JOHN RUSSELL: I've been praying for them. Hoping that they get through this and just don't look down on him for what he did because that -- that wasn't -- it just wasn't him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Monday's shooting the deadliest of its kind in the Iraq War.
Joining me now to discuss our troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan, CNN military analyst, David Grange, who is joining us from Chicago tonight. You know, general, I can't think of a more tragic story to come out of many tragedies in this war, but this just leaves anyone who hears that father and that son talk about Sergeant Russell. It makes -- so much pain in the families of those -- those victims. What -- what could the army have done here, differently? What could the United States have done differently for its military and for its Army?
BG DAVID GRANGE, US ARMY, (RET): First of all, Lou, there's no excuse for the criminal act that this soldier performed. And I don't think that a mental health clinic drove the soldier to commit these crimes. Now, could better personal care have been applied? Possibly. But to drive a soldier to do something like that, I don't believe that. I know these psychologists, psychiatrists in the military, I've gone through the testing myself. But the main thing to the chain of command, look at this guy, did they take care of him? Did they determine he was a threat? To blame it on the clinic, I don't agree with it.
DOBBS: Yeah. I'm not blaming it on the clinic. In point of fact, I implied no such thing. What I did say and I'll say it clear as I can. You and I have talked about an Army that's broken. Men and women who have served three and four tours in Iraq. The United States arm and military has known since World War II, that level of stress, level of engagement in combat, and this particular kind of combat is straining a man beyond reasonable boundaries. What we have watched and witnessed and participated in as a nation in the way in which we are using our military and assigning those brave soldiers, those brave troops, is absolutely not up to the standards of a great nation. Is that more clear?
GRANGE: Well, no, you were clear. I'm talking about what the dad said about his son.
DOBBS: Yeah, yeah.
GRANGE: Now, there are some issues. For instance, the two different kind of wars that we talked about earlier, you know, World War II you stayed in the fight until the mission was complete. But the slow grind of combat day after day for several years is pretty tough, too. Then you take a situation like an Iraq or Afghanistan, not all the units, but many of them where they're out on a patrol, they come back in a forward operating base, they go back out for a day or two, come back, depending on the type of mission they perform, you're going into a very stressful situation, back to a little bit more of a safe island of a different world. Unless you're living with the villages, the locals. So you go through traumatic change more often. You don't have the steady -- I almost think it's better to stay in the field, stay in the fight and get it over with. But that type of fighting today in the norm. That in and out, back and forth.
DOBBS: And 180 suicides. The most since the Army started keeping track. I mean, this -- this is extraordinary stress. Something is very, very wrong. Amongst the things that are wrong, you know, we can include, I suppose, a host of variables. But certainly the demands we're putting on our Army, whether it's on our service members, Army, Marines, every branch of the service. Or whether it is a manner of resources or the mission, itself. This is something we've never experienced, right?
GRANGE: Well, that is partly true. The other thing is the type of society we have right now, you really have to spend more time preparing troops for combat because they're not -- a lot of the society is not ...
DOBBS: General, I'm sorry. We're out of time. I'm going to have to jump. I appreciate it. Thank you. General David Grange.
Coming up next, we'll have our poll results. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: The poll results, 95 percent of you say Speaker Pelosi is not telling the truth about what she new about waterboarding and when. A reminder to join me on the radio Monday and Fridays for the LOU DOBBS SHOW. Go to loudobbsradio.com for the listings in your area.
Thanks for being with us. CNN's special "Money and Main Street" starts right now with Anderson Cooper and Ali Velshi.
