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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Holocaust Museum Shootings

Aired June 10, 2009 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf. Tonight, a deadly shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. A private security guard, Stephen Tyrone Johns killed. Two other security guards returned fire against the gunman. That gunman critically wounded. The suspect is James von Brunn. He is 88-years- old. He lives in Maryland. Law enforcement describe him as a white supremacist. Von Brunn spent time in federal prison on attempted kidnapping, assault and firearms charges. The museum just blocks from the White House was full at the time of that shooting. Victims were rushed to the nearby trauma center at George Washington University Hospital.

The FBI and the District of Columbia police tonight say the shooting in the heart of the nation's capital is the work of a single gunman and there was no warning of that attack. But the suspect is well known to law enforcement. They say he has a long association with neo-Nazi and hate groups. The suspect's Web site contains articles raging against blacks and Jews. Elaine Quijano has our report from today's crime scene. Elaine?

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, it was just before 1:00 this afternoon when authorities say the suspect whom they've identified as 88-year-old James von Brunn, walked into the Holocaust Museum carrying a rifle, shot a security guard and then was shot by other guards himself. Now the security guard who was hit died at the hospital. Witnesses inside the museum at the time described a scene of chaos as the gunshots rang out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were in the "Remember the Children" exhibit. We were just exiting and we heard shooting. I ran towards the glass doors to see what was going on. I thought it was a joke or something. And there I could see a security man pull out his gun and shoot towards the shooter. I also saw another security man laid down on his belly. There was blood everywhere. There was just chaos everyone. People were running toward me trying to get into the "Remember the Children" exhibit because that's the safest place. There were people on the floor. Everyone was just trying to stay calm and exit the building.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, authorities say no one besides -- no one else besides the gunman and the security guard were seriously injured. Museum officials just a short time ago held a news conference in which they praised the security guard, Stephen Johns, and praised him as a hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARA BLOOMFIELD, DIRECTOR, U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: Obviously, there are no words to express our grief and shock over the horrific event that took place at this museum today, and our great sadness at the loss of our dear friend and colleague, Officer Stephen Johns who served as a member of our security staff for over six years. He was an outstanding colleague, and beloved of all of us. A great friend who greeted us every day with a wonderful smile on his face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, museum officials say Stephen Johns had a wife. Tomorrow they are closing the museum and flying flags now at half mast in his honor. Lou?

DOBBS: Elaine, thank you, Elaine Quijano. The mortally wounded security officer and the wounded gunman were both rushed to George Washington University Hospital just minutes from the scene. Officer Johns died there of his wounds. Kate Bolduan is outside of the hospital now and has the report. Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Lou. Well, the latest we hear from D.C. Police is James von Brunn, the suspect, the shooter in this case, we're told he remains in critical condition here at George Washington University Hospital. Let me get you up to speed on what happened. When the shooting happened just around 1:00 this afternoon, we're told that James von Brunn, the shooter, as well as security guard Stephen Tyrone Johns were rushed here to George Washington University Hospital.

I believe we have video of the ambulance of the suspect arriving here to the hospital. They came here because this is the nearest trauma center to this -- to the Holocaust Museum, it's less than two miles from that museum as we've been reporting.

Johns then later, we are told, died here at the hospital. Von Brunn we're told remains here in critical condition.

Now let me read you a statement released from the holocaust museum regarding Mr. Johns, the security guard. It reads in part, "Officer Stephen Tyrone Johns died heroically in the line of duty today. There are no words to express our grief and shock over these events. He served on the museum's security staff for six years. Our thoughts and prayers go out to Officer Johns' family."

I have to tell you, Lou, since we've been here this afternoon, we saw quite a large security police presence here this afternoon. Many people trying to keep a very tense situation, a very intense situation calm. The hospital is deferring all comment to D.C. Police. They say there will be a press conference tomorrow morning. But as we've been here, I've seen things that appear to be police detectives bringing evidence bags out of the hospital, putting them into cars.

As we've been here, Lou, many people have been walking up to us asking about what the latest is. Everyone here in D.C. it seems very much aware of the situation today and everyone I talked to said it's just such a tragedy of what happened. And the fact that the security officer Johns died here at George Washington University Hospital.

DOBBS: Very -- tragedy, without question. Thank you very much, Kate Bolduan.

James von Brunn, the suspect is this shooting is a man with a criminal record and a long history of association with hate groups. CNN has learned that the suspect in today's shooting committed a bizarre crime in 1981. Then, armed with a pistol, a shotgun, and a knife and fake bomb, he then tried to kidnap members of the U.S. Federal Reserve. He said he was upset about high interest rates and the state of the American economy.

Von Brunn was convicted of attempted kidnapping while armed and a number of other charges. A document was introduced during von Brunn's 1988 trial in which he wrote that his goal was to "deport all Jews and blacks from the white nations."

President Obama tonight issued a statement following the shooting. President Obama said, quote, "This outrageous act reminds us that we must remain vigilant against anti-Semitism and prejudice in all its forms. No American institution is more important to this effort than the Holocaust Museum and no act of violence will diminish our determination to honor those who were lost by building a more peaceful and tolerant world."

Up next here, much more on the deadly attack in Washington, D.C. And we will be reporting to you a lot more about this 88-year-old suspect, his previous criminal conviction, his book, and we'll hear from a leading security expert about how this could happen at a heavily guarded museum in the heart of our nation's capital.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The alleged gunman in today's deadly Holocaust Museum shooting is well known to law enforcement. Officials identified him almost immediately as 88-year-old white supremacist James von Brunn. Drew Griffin has our report. Drew?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, eerily similar these two cases. 1981, new president, a recession underway. And as you were pointing out, von Brunn walks into the Federal Reserve Board armed to the tee. Says he wants to symbolically arrest members of the Federal Reserve Board. Of course, he was arrested and convicted in 1983, sent away for six years. But he comes out their in 1989 to become really infiltrated in the white supremacist movement. It was after then that he wrote his hate-filled book which he blames Jews for the desecration of the white race. It was after that that he began attending some rallies, Klan rallies according to some people who have known him. And he just was well known among those who track these anti-hate groups and also well known to law enforcement as well, Lou.

DOBBS: Drew, let me ask you, I mean, is that what his association with these hate groups began following the 1981 incident or preceding it?

GRIFFIN: You Know, it's hard for us to determine when he was involved with the group. Obviously, he must have had some leanings or some ties before that. But what happened after his incarceration, the Internet happened. So we can begin to track him now and his writings and his postings on Internet Web sites, which is where a lot of this activity is disseminated and a lot of these links are made.

We're still digging on his past, whether or not he was or was not a naval war hero as he proclaims himself to be. We're still getting the records on what he actually did in his life. We know he was an artist. A writer, a copy editor and maybe even a real estate agent. But what we do know for sure, Lou, he was a Holocaust denier and a man who had hate-filled speech across the Internet.

DOBBS: Drew, thank you. Drew, if you will, please stay with us. I want to bring in now CNN security analyst Mike Brooks. Mike, to what degree are you familiar with von Brunn and his background?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYIST: Well you know, Lou, I was sitting here on the set with Kyra Phillips today when we first mentioned his name and I said wait a minute, I know that name, because back in 1981, I was with the Metropolitan Police Department. And I recall when this incident happened.

Then later on, I was assigned with the FBI's joint terrorism task force there in Washington who is actually investigating this case now. And I had run across his name before. And apparently he was associated with William Pierce. And he may be familiar to you, Lou, because he wrote the book "The Turner Diaries" which is basically the blueprint, if you will, for Timothy McVeigh's plan to bomb the Murrah Federal Building.

DOBBS: The name was familiar, and I forgot what the context was. So he was associated with him as well, or just simply a follower if you will?

BROOKS: No, apparently there was some association. But Pierce died back a number of years ago and someone else took over. But right now, I'm also hearing, Lou, law enforcement there running us down, the FBI joint terrorism task force is investigating this along now, since it's a homicide with the Metropolitan Police and they are sending leads out to Maryland and looking at his previous addresses in Eastern Maryland and Annapolis, Maryland.

DOBBS: Mike, there's no other way to say this. With this man's history, how in the world could he procure a gun? How could he pose a threat? I mean this man has a history of association with hate groups, a criminal record. How in the world could this happen?

BROOKS: That's a great question. And people have been asking me that all day, Lou. Why weren't the FBI looking at this guy? Well, the problem is, there's this thing called the attorney general guidelines, Lou. And after he did his time, if he -- even though he had a hate-filled Web site and he spouted all kinds of things that people find uncomfortable, there wasn't any criminality, no threats at all, and that's why the FBI because of the attorney general guidelines, could not open up any kind of case on him. It's not against the law for hate speech. It's only when you're ...

DOBBS: I'm not talking about the fact that he was a crazy -- belonging to a hate group. I'm talking a man who took guns into the Federal Reserve and tried to kidnap federal officials and who served time in a federal prison for it.

BROOKS: I totally agree. You know, and after he did his time, apparently he had -- was not involved in any more criminal activity dealing with threats or anything of the sort. So, then, I mean, if we had looked at everybody who was involved in hate speech, there's not enough FBI agents, ATF agents to even investigate these folks. That's what the main thing is, Lou. If you're not involved in criminality, sometimes you might go off the radar.

DOBBS: Let's bring Drew Griffin in, Drew. Over the past two weeks we've seen the arrest, four men arrested, threatening to blow up synagogues, two synagogues, and trying to secure a missile to shoot down an aircraft. We've got the shooting and the murder of one of our soldiers at a recruiting center in Little Rock, Arkansas. This event, I mean, these are -- these are events that are happening in a very compressed period of time. What are your thoughts?

GRIFFIN: Well, I think we'd have to ask a sociologist to look at these people and figure out if there is any connection not to each other but in their own minds and their own way of thinking. Recessionary times, a dramatic change in who is the president. Let's not lose sight of that. A dramatic change, or maybe not change in the way we are affecting the war in Iraq, or in Afghanistan. I'm talking about the Muslim person who is arrested in one of these cases.

So there is a lot of this fermenting hatred in the minds of these various groups out there. I don't know if there is a trigger mechanism that went on here or if this is just a strange coincidence. In terms of von Brunn, he's been basically, from the anti-hate groups, he's been dormant. That's the word they used. He's been dormant. He's 88-years-old.

BROOKS: See, Lou, people like this, these are the kind of people that are really the most concerned to me as a former antiterrorism official and law enforcement now, the lone wolves. These people who get kind of a myopic view and I call them true believers. Because they get so involved in this, they totally believe what the thoughts and what their writings are. And then, one day, they seem to be just OK, and next day, they go out and do an incident like this.

DOBBS: You know, again, not to put too fine a point on it. This man is almost 90-years-old.

BROOKS: Yeah.

DOBBS: He has a gun, as a felon, one that he should not obviously possess. We don't know and we will subsequently learn, how he came to possess that gun. But this is -- this is pitiful, it is tragic, it's horrific. But the fact that we have a situation in which we're seeing these number of incidents, as I mentioned, the four men, you mentioned the one Muslim who attacked a recruiting center and killed one of our soldiers, wounded badly another, four Muslims whose tried to attack -- planning to attack two synagogues, shoot down one of our aircraft, the anti-abortion fanatic who murdered an abortion doctor.

Let's go to the issue here of two things. One is hate, another is a changing economic and social condition. Mike Brooks, shouldn't there be greater, if you will, weariness and alertness on the part of law enforcement?

BROOKS: I think there is, Lou. If you look at the case in New York, I would call that a prevention. They have an informant. They had an undercover agent. And they prevented a possible incident. And you know Lou, when I was on the JTTF, people would say Mike, what did you do today? What's going on? And I would tell them look, if you knew half of what I knew which I was there, you wouldn't go out of your house. They're working on cases every single day that we don't even hear about, Lou.

DOBBS: All right. Mike Brooks, Drew Griffin, thank you both.

In New York, officials at the Museum of Jewish Heritage tightened security there in wake of the deadly event in Washington. A spokesperson telling CNN "We've always had a high level of security but as you can imagine, today it is a bit more heightened."

Up next here, we'll be hearing we'll be hearing from some people who were inside the Holocaust Museum when that shooting broke out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I could see a security man pull out his gun and shoot towards the shooter. I also saw another security man laid down on his belly. There was blood everywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: More dramatic eyewitness accounts as our coverage continues next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We're following breaking news tonight, a deadly shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. today. A security guard there shot and killed. The suspect, wounded in critical condition tonight, and for tourists at the museum today, a somber visit turned into a horrible tragedy. Here are some of their eyewitness accounts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were in the "Remember the Children" exhibit. We were just exiting and we heard shooting. I ran towards the glass doors to see what was going on. I thought it was a joke or something. And there I could see a security man pull out his gun and shoot towards the shooter. I also saw another security man laid down on his belly. There was blood everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First, we thought something just fell. But then, all of the sudden, we saw people yelling and screaming, hit the floor, hit the floor. So we did into a little nook in the side of the wall.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard three gunshots. I'm not sure what order they happened in. But as I looked over to see what was happening, I saw a security guard kneeling down by the entrance and returning fire.

UNIDENTIFIED AMEL: I heard six, seven shots, maybe five, I don't know. It was really, really hard. I just saw the stampede of people going back --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People were just -- they didn't know what to think. They were some panicked. I know I was. And you didn't know what was really going on. And they were running to get out as fast as they can. And they were crying when they came out. It was something that bad had happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our hearts and thoughts go out to security guard and his family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't expect that you're in a secure place, a place of reverence and respect. You don't expect gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My father was a Holocaust survivor as well as my husband's parents. It was a very emotional day for us. For this to happen on top of it, it was just unbelievable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS; Dome civil rights groups as well as law enforcement agencies have been aware of shooting suspect James von Brunn for years. The Anti-Defamation League has tracked his anti-Semitic writings. Deborah Lauter is the director of civil rights for the Anti-Defamation League and joins us now. Deborah, thank you for being with us. What can you tell us -- you have a file and this man was well known to you. Tell us what he's been engaged in.

DEBORAH LAUTER, DIRECTOR OF CIVIL RIGHTS, ANTI DEFAMATAION LAGUE: Right, well as you noted back in 1981, he did an attack at the Federal Reserve Building. What motivates that was his anti-Semitism. He believes that the Jews controlled financial systems in the United States. We've seen just a pattern. He had not only a Web site in which it was infused with anti-Semitism. But he published a book in 2002, a 400-page book. I've looked through it. It's just filled with hate and scorn.

DOBBS: And this is a self-published book?

LAUTER: It's self-published book. DOBBS: And the Web site you referred to, it's an active Web site.

LAUTER: An active Web site. He's somebody that we would consider an active right-wing extremist, active neo-Nazi, but somebody on the periphery of organized groups. That being said, I can tell you that today the organized white supremacist movement is having a field day. They're holding him up as a celebrity, as a martyr and encouraging others to follow suit which, of course, is of great concern to all of us.

DOBBS: What are some of those groups?

LAUTER: You can see postings on the main --

DOBBS: I'm not interesting in giving away their Web site, but the names of those groups.

LAUTER: These are groups such as Klan groups traditionally in the United States, Nation Vanguard socialist movement, many of these groups are organized.

DOBBS: And they are actually celebrating what this man did today?

LAUTER: Oh, yes, absolutely, sure.

DOBBS: Oh we must say what he allegedly did today.

LAUTER: Allegedly.

DOBBS: Well, it's also not the first time. We're talking with Mike Brooks and Drew Griffin. Known, the man's acts are well-known to law enforcement, to organizations like yours. But these are acts. This is not just simple hate writings as horrific and offensive as they may be. This is a man with a history of acts of hate. How is it that we get to this point?

LAUTER: Well, you know, clearly, when he acted out on the hate, in the Federal Reserve instance, he was imprisoned for it. He served six years in prison. And then he's been out and unfortunately, he didn't learn his lesson. So this is a great country. We have the First Amendment that protects that hate ideology and it protects his free speech to spew the racism, the anti-Semitism. What we worry about is when you take that hate ideology and translate it into exactly what we saw today.

DOBBS: And I think many people may wonder, frankly as do I, that this move well beyond some fringe hate. This is a man who had already acted out.

LAUTER: Correct.

DOBBS: Hate, the groups who follow writings and groups that associate for the purpose of carrying out some hateful ideology or philosophy. But is there anyone working, in law enforcement, amongst civil rights groups when somebody has actually -- makes it very clear, they mean to act, not simply to write, and associate.

LAUTER: Right. Well, we watch -- clearly, we monitor not only the extremist sites but the social networking sites to see what the haters are saying. If they cross the line into advocating violence or doing something that would be considered harassment or threats, then it's actionable.

So, you know, it's a fine line. But it can be there. If we had picked up something on him where he said, I'm going to the museum and I'm going to fulfill my wishes. Today, then we could act on it. If he had said, as he has in the past, we should eradicate the Jewish people, that's not. It's a vague threat, it's not something that in this country, you can act upon.

DOBBS: As I discussed with our correspondents earlier, the idea that here is a man who is well known to law enforcement, who is well known to some civil rights group, including your own. There -- we also have all of these incidents, moving back just a couple of weeks, four men, three of them known to be recent Muslim converts whose sought to destroy two synagogues, secure a missile and shoot down a military aircraft. A man who, anti-abortion fanatic, who allegedly killed an abortion doctor. A convert to Islam who shot and murdered one of our soldiers at a recruiting center in Little Rock, Arkansas and wounded another.

It seems in very short order, these acts are coming together. Is there something happening? Is there something going on here? Certainly an economy that is weak, but in many ways, it's much stronger than it was a year ago. What is going on, if anything, that you can discern, that would create this number of events in such a short period of time?

LAUTER: Right and there are others too. There was the Poplawski murder in Pittsburgh where he murdered three police officers, and also an incident in Massachusetts. I would say we're very concerned. I think it's probably the combination of economic crisis. Clearly, Obama's election has fueled the right wing extremist movement in this country. They, you know, they got very upset when he got elected and they were calling to arms in a general way, not actionable, but --

DOBBS: But interestingly, these are actions taken -- as we described them here, these are not against African-Americans, although the man who died today is African-American. They are not an expression against blacks in this country. In two instances they are an expression against Jews.

LAUTER: Yeah. Several of them, even the Arkansas one that you cited, didn't get much publicity, but when they confiscated his computer, the perpetrator in that one was anti-Semitic, had also been looking at Jewish targets which to continue.

So we at the ADL are very concerned about this because as you said, there's a number of incidents in a very short period, and many of them are under guarded by fundamental anti-Semitism. So, you know, it's something that we watch closely, we do train law enforcement on who are the individuals, who are the groups. As your program noted, many perpetrators are lone wolves, so if they're not part of an organized, we don't know about them until an incident happens and then we can trace back to their hate.

DOBBS: Deborah, I want to thank you for being here. We appreciate you taking time. Director of civil rights at the Anti- Defamation League, we appreciate you taking us through this.

LAUTER: You're welcome.

DOBBS: The writings of the suspect James Von Brunn clearly demonstrate his level of racism and anti-Semitism. Our Brian Todd has taken a good look at Von Brunn's book and his website and joins us now with more.

Brian, what can you tell us?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we can play off a little bit what Miss Lauter told you a moment ago. James Von Brunn does have a book, as you mentioned. It looks to have been self-published around the year 2002. It's entitled "Kill the Best Gentiles" and the first six chapters are posted on his website. It's full of anti-Semitic diatribes and Holocaust denial. One passage, "History shows us that Jews are compulsive liars, it is a genetic characteristic that all Jews share, all Jews know the Holocaust is a lie." Von Brunn describes his political beliefs on the founding of Israel. "Jews were guaranteed the state of Israel quid pro quo for again bringing America into war against Germany." And on one page, he lays out what he believes is a Jewish strategy for dominating the world. One part he writes to convert the American Republican to a democracy and the other establish a central bank. He also says Jews plotted to capture control of the mass media to end personal income tax. He ends that draft with the quote, "Jews tend to destroy what they most envy." It's a long list and long kind of publishing of his rants on that website which actually has the first six chapters of his book.

DOBBS: As Deborah Lauter said, that self-published book filled with hate and hateful writings, appreciate it very much, Brian. Thank you so much. Brian Todd.

When we continue with our coverage here, we'll have the very latest for you on the developments in the deadly shooting in Washington. Stay with us. We're coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We're reporting to you tonight on breaking new, a deadly shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. there, a security guard was shot and murdered. The suspect wounded. Tonight in critical condition, and sources tell CNN that the suspect, James Von Brunn opened fire with a rifle in the lobby of the crowded museum, just before 1:00 this afternoon. One of his shots hit the security guard. Other security guards returned his fire. They wounded the gunman. Both the gunman and wounded security guard were then taken to George Washington University Hospital where the guard later died. The 88-year-old Von Brunn is known by law enforcement as a white supremacist and anti-Semite. Officer Stephen Tyrone Johns, a six-year veteran at the museum, as I said, died from his wounds at the hospital.

Joining me now with more national security contributor Fran Townsend.

Fran, good to have you with us. Let me first turn to the idea that this man is so well known to civil rights groups who follow hate organizations, known to law enforcement. Does it surprise you that he was able to carry out an act like this? Fortunately stopped well before he entered and endangered more people but getting as far as he did at the Holocaust Museum?

FRAN TOWNSEND, NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Lou, I wish I could tell you I was surprised. In fact, what doesn't surprise me is the sort of incredible response by the security guards. This is exactly what they trained for. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. They saved the lives of dozens of children and innocent people that would have been in the museum. Regrettably one security officer as you mentioned paid the ultimate price for having performed his duty.

I'll tell you. People are going to be rightly frustrated by the facts in this case as you talked about in your show. This is a guy with a long history here. But in some respects, we have a constitution that protects his right to say hateful things. When he crosses the line into actually doing violent things, that's the real challenge for law enforcement.

DOBBS: The first amendment privileges are clear, but also the privileges that one loses when carrying out a hate crime as he did, carrying out a violent act as he did in 1981, being convicted and sentenced to prison. He was sentenced for 11 years. He served more than six years in prison. Law enforcement unable to track or follow this man. Where does the system fall short? Where could it be improved?

TOWNSEND: You know, it's interesting, I think people will be surprised to learn that the FBI has these joint terrorism task forces all over the country. Before 9/11, there were only about 30 of them. There's now 103. Every one of those across the country has a domestic terrorism unit. The FBI has a pretty aggressive effort to track these groups to monitor hateful speech, to try and look for signs that they will cross over, cross the line beyond the first amendment so the FBI can take action.

This guy isn't known to be affiliated with a particular group. Although you can expect the feds as we speak are out looking for telephone records, internet records, searching his home, looking for signs and signals that there may be others involved. But when it's a lone wolf that represents the biggest challenge to federal law enforcement.

DOBBS: What you say makes great sense. Not only a lone wolf, this is a 90-year-old -- almost 90-year-old lone wolf. It's almost inconceivable that a 90-year-old would be engaged in this kind of -- well, first, this kind of behavior, conduct. And then to carry out an act like this. Almost inconceivable. TOWNSEND: I think that's -- I think you're absolutely right, Lou. And beyond that, imagine, this is a man who, during his military service, before he espoused all of this hateful speech, served in the military, probably served in World War II fighting the Nazis. As you say, absolutely inconceivable. What would have twisted this man's mind in such a despicable hateful way that he would say the things that Brian Todd laid out in his piece and then to have committed the act today really is beyond anything one could even imagine.

DOBBS: That is one of the mysteries of the ages. Is how this nation, all of the sacrifices that were made to destroy Nazis and Nazism, that there could be anyone in this country, but as you say particularly, a man who fought against them himself, who would indulge any thought, even remotely approximating Nazism.

TOWNSEND: No, that's exactly right. You can understand, as offensive as this is. Why there are countries throughout Europe who made it a crime to espouse such hateful speech and this sort of white supremacist pro Nazi speech. We don't. Our constitution protects people's rights to say all sorts of stupid, hateful things. We take a great deal of pride in that. It does represent a challenge. But I have to say, people ought to know the FBI director and FBI in particular expend tremendous resources against the hate groups across the entire spectrum, not just white supremacist but also the environmental liberation front, animal liberation front. Hate knows no bound on the political spectrum.

DOBBS: And to that point, as I ask Deborah Lauter of the ADL, we've seen, in a compressed period of time, four Muslims, carrying out a -- you know, an attempt to destroy two synagogues, seeking a missile to shoot down a military aircraft, a Muslim attacking one of our recruiting centers, killing one of our soldier, badly wounding another. The shooting of the -- the abortion doctor by an antiabortion fanatic. This is all happening in a compressed time. Yet, at the same time. There is every sign our economy is improving, not worsening. Do you have a theory as to why we'd be seeing this rise in the incidence of these crimes?

TOWNSEND: You know, Lou, like your prior guest, I would say to you, when you see difficult economic times, sometimes there's a lag. But you do see spikes in violent behavior. This has been such a rash of this. You know, if you ask me when I was at the white house advising the president what I would have expected in terms of attacks against a place like the Holocaust Museum or synagogues, I could have been much more concerned that al Qaeda, an Islamist extremist group would have targeted that facility. We work with folks like the ADL on those sorts of concerns. I would not have expected an 88-year-old retired member of the United States military.

DOBBS: Fran Townsend, thanks so much for being with us.

TOWNSEND: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: We'll have more on today's deadly shooting and report on other recent crimes that law enforcement has now linked to racial or political motives. We continue in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The deadly shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is one of a number of recent killings that law enforcement officials have now linked political or racial motives. Lisa Sylvester has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: According to FBI figures the number of hate crime incidents in the United States has actually been dropping. In 2007, there were 7,624 incidents down from 2001 with 9,730 incidents. But now this, a high profile murder at the Holocaust Museum. The author of "Blood and Politics the History of the White Nationalist Movement" says today serves as a reminder that hate still has a following.

LEONARD ZESKINO, AUTHOR: They don't go away. In fact what I would argue, over the 30 years that I've been paying attention to this movement, they have slowly grown, each year or two they will grow in numbers and sympathizers.

SYLVESTER: There everybody several recent high profile shootings where the victims were targeted for their political views. A 23-year- old army private shot and killed this month in Arkansas allegedly by a Muslim convert who opposes the war in Iraq and the killing of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller who was slain while at church.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: The Anti-Defamation League just last week released annual audit showed the number of incidents declined for the fourth straight year. He said that was encouraging but said the sheer volume of incidences reported and violent nature of attacks is a reminder we cannot be complacent. He said those words just last week, Lou.

DOBBS: All right, Lisa, thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester.

Joining me now, three of the best political thinkers around; political analyst, Keli Goff, contributor to the Huffington Post, good to have you here Keli, Miguel Perez, syndicated columnist CNN contributor, Miguel, thanks for being here; Hank Sheinkopf democratic strategist and CNN contributor.

Hank, let's start with one of the frustrating aspects of this tragedy today, this man is so well known to almost everyone who could have done something, at least it appears to have stopped it.

HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: That is the problem of a democracy in the very gift. People can say and do anything and not to be arrested or harassed by law enforcement because they have beliefs that we find onerous. But we really should start this Lou. I mean you are the boss. I want to say this to the family of security officer Johns, we wish deep condolences.

DOBBS: As you say -- I'm delighted you extend those condolences shared by everyone here at CNN. But the idea that one can say and do anything in a democracy, is not quite accurate.

SHEINKOPF: No, you can't say there's a fire --

DOBBS: You cannot say there's a fire and you can't do as he did, commit a felony. And still -- just have it simply disappear, it seems, Miguel. From his record and have people forget what a menace he can be.

MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Wow think, Lou, at this point with all his writing. The guy does threaten in some writing. Encourages others let's take action. Let's not sit around. You would think they would have an eye on him. Especially given his record, absolutely.

DOBBS: Keli?

KELI GOFF, POLITICAL ANALYST: Well also I was going to say being from Texas I have friends who are gun owners. I took a bit of ribbing after - about the fact that gun sales were going up when it appeared President Obama was going to win and I know some gun store owners actually said that they were selling 15 to 20 assault rifles a day. I don't know the details regarding this shooting.

DOBBS: We know very few details.

GOFF: When you have someone with a felony conviction and it goes back to what we were talking about the gift of living in a great democracy, but someone engages in dangerous speech. Speech of this nature depending how it's couched is not too far from shouting "fire" in a crowded theater and then you have this person getting access to these types of weapons. It reinforces the fact gun control debate would disappear --

DOBBS: We don't know where he got his weapons.

SHEINKOPF: We don't know what type of weapon it was.

GOFF: Following the Tiller shooting, it reinforces the fact it's not an issue we can run away from or be fearful of talking about because of divisiveness which I think is sort of what's happened on both sides.

DOBBS: You mean, don't ask, don't tell.

GOFF: For gun control there has been a bit of that. Part of that is the fault of Democratic leaders. They're terrified of it being a controversial issue. I think shootings like this reinforce we have to talk about it.

DOBBS: If I may proffer, I think if there is that view, it's the intellectual cowardice of Democratic leadership.

GOFF: Politicians engaging in cowardice.

DOBBS: Today we watched heroism, the U.S. Holocaust Museum holding up security officer Johns as a hero in preventing further bloodshed. The idea there's any limitation as a result of speech. I don't think there's any American would wants any infringement of their first amendment rights no matter how hateful the statement or remark or heinous or disgusting the speech. But a fact the man could carry a gun, a rifle, in this instance, into the -- at least the entrance of the museum itself, that boggles the mind.

PEREZ: Especially with all of the children that are there. It's absurd.

SHEINKOPF: How he got the weapon is the question. Does he have other weapons stored? Are there people associated to him that have the weapons? Is he part of a larger group? Those are questions law enforcement has to answer.

DOBBS: Those questions at this point law enforcement has answered and the answer to each is none. We'll continue with our panel in a moment. We'll be right back.

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DOBBS: Up at the top of the hour, Campbell Brown. Campbell?

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, there, Lou.

We are also focusing, as you can imagine, on the deadly shooting in Washington. But tonight we're asking whether certain clues about the suspect were ignored. Could this have been prevented?

Also we've heard about racist rants but how much do we have to fear from supremacist groups more generally?

And plus, are we focusing on the wrong bad guys right now? Is it time to step up the war on home grown terrorist?

Also the great debate tonight, is the U.S. too tolerant of hate speech? All of that ahead at the top of the hour. Lou?

DOBBS: All right, Campbell. Thank you very much. We'll be back with our panel in a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We're back with our panel. Keli, it seems we need to begin to work very hard to understand why we've had this compressed incident of hate crimes, because that's what they are. Whether it be the murder and wounding of our soldiers in Little Rock at a recruiting center, the four Muslims who were trying to destroy two synagogues, the -- the antiabortion fanatic who murdered, allegedly murdered an abortion doctor. There's something happening here, and it doesn't seem that any part of our society understands what it is.

GOFF: You know, I'm going to break a bit with the national security contributor who spoke earlier on this show saying I think there's more going on in the story than simply economics. I think what is going on is idealist or optimist in me is the idea that majority of our country and the majority of Americans are people who do want to work together and who are united for common good, even when they don't agree on every political issue. I think when you see a country able to come together to elect the first African-American president, possibility of the first Latina cabinet. We have a very diverse cabinet that features Asian Americans, Jewish Americans. I think there's people who are angry about that. It's not the majority. But there are people domestic terrorists, international terrorists not happy to see Americans coming together for a common good. They engage in acts like this to scare us into believing that we're a more divided country than we really are.

DOBBS: Miguel, your thoughts?

PEREZ: What worries me, we'll forget about the white supremacist, the Muslim extremists in our midst. We worry about Pakistan, Afghanistan, and fighting terrorists all over the world when we have them here. What happens when we have acts of terrorists, we worry about them, and forget all about it until there's another shooting or another bomb.

DOBBS: I think it's important the context here too. As Lisa Sylvester reported, we've seen a dramatic, dramatic reduction in hate crimes in this country.

PEREZ: And I don't -- I don't think it has so much to do with the economy, I agree with her. I think it has to do with the president and people feeling up against the ball because things are changing.

DOBBS: What I'm talking about, we've seen a dramatic reduction in the number of hate crimes over the past eight year, seven to eight years. And, I mean, very significant, yet, within this short period of time, a compression of incidents. Your thoughts, Hank?

SHEINKOPF: By the way, depression time, economic crimes, times like these, we're not in depression, find hate crimes. Much easier to find. Find the other, target and hit it. That's what this is about.

DOBBS: Again, the incident of hate crimes overall has been declined.

GOFF: Right, but Lou one quite distinction is you have to talk about the types of crimes, right? When the Southern Poverty Law Center tracks different crimes it could be vandalism. Now what we're up to seeing are shootings. Now they're much more dramatic type crimes is what I'm trying to say, more violent.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Miguel, thank you, Hank, thank you, Keli.

We thank you for being with us tonight. CNN's coverage continues. Good night from New York.

Now Campbell Brown.