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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Demonstrations in Iran; Health Care Reform; Made in America; Education in America
Aired June 15, 2009 - ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks Wolf.
Tonight protests in Iran become more violent and turn deadly. Hundreds of thousands of people demonstrate in Iran's capital amid charges that President Ahmadinejad stole the election. President Obama makes his first public comments tonight.
One of the top priorities for the president, back home, government funded health insurance. And today President Obama pushed his plan before a group largely opposed to it -- the nation's doctors. We'll have a full report.
Also, an international custody battle over a 9-year-old boy -- the New Jersey dad at the center of the case wins a round in Brazilian court. David Goldman will be here tonight.
And should conservatives be more liberal? Well that's the topic of our "Face Off" tonight.
Well, good evening, everybody.
Violence and bloodshed tonight on the streets of Tehran -- Iran's election results remain in dispute after the vote count showed a landslide victory for President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Now at least one protester was killed, dozens injured. Hundreds of thousands of people marched through the streets of Iran's capital, defying a government ban.
Now the protests were largely peaceful. But there was violence as well. The demonstrations are the largest since the Iranian revolution 30 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: And Brian Todd has more on the fallout and the charges that the election results were rigged.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the street, claims of a stolen election. Opposition leader, Mir Hossein Mousavi calls for and gets an investigation into election irregularities. Privately and publicly U.S. officials have a hard time believing this was the landslide for President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that the Iranian government claims.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is some real doubt about that. I don't think we are in a position to say. It was surprising that the assertion was he won by what 60-some percent of the vote.
TODD: Another administration official who didn't want to be identified because of the sensitivity of the situation says early indications are that there may have been some fraud. U.S. officials are not in a position to say Ahmadinejad didn't win the source says, but a few things are difficult to square.
The fact that Mousavi didn't win in his hometown of Tebriz, the indication that Ahmadinejad got several million votes more than he did four years ago, despite all of his controversies since then. And the fact that there were no independent international monitors on the ground.
An Iranian official tells us the Guardian Council, made up of six people appointed by Iran Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei and six appointed by the judiciary will report the findings of its investigation in a week to 10 days. One analyst is skeptical.
KARIM SADJADPOUR, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INT. PEACE: I have very little confidence that the Guardian Council can be an objective actor in adjudicating this dispute for no other reason that if the head of the Guardian Council (publicly endorsed President Ahmadinejad before these elections.
TODD: The Iranian official we spoke with says the idea that the council will be influenced by the president is unfounded and unfair. The head of an international polling group that did an independent survey of Iranians three weeks before the election says its poll showed Ahmadinejad ahead by a two to one margin.
KEN BALLEN, TERROR FREE TOMORROW: That does not mean he would have won the election. What it does tell us is that he enjoyed substantial support in Iran and that his re-election is possibly based on the will of the people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Ken Ballen says that could well be the case even if Mousavi had a surge between that poll and the election. Ballen also says his poll indicated that even in Mousavi's home region it was Ahmadinejad who had a clear advantage three weeks before that election so no guarantee that Mousavi would have won even in his hometown -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks very much Brian Todd. Thanks Brian.
Now as we have been reporting hundreds of thousands took to the streets of Tehran to protest the elections. Now these protests were largely peaceful until shots were fired toward the end of one rally and we should warn you, this next picture is graphic.
This news agency photograph shows a man apparently shot dead. There were additional reports of other shooting victims in the massive rally. No independent confirmation.
The Obama administration is reacting cautiously tonight to the developing situation on the streets of Iran. Dan Lothian reports from the White House -- Dan.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well Kitty you know over the last few days we have heard from other administration officials including the vice president, but have not heard any remark from the president himself reacting to the elections in Iran. Well that changed just a few minutes ago when the president did speak out for the first time on Iran saying that it is up to Iran to determine its own leader and the president again giving an explanation for why this administration has been so cautious in the last few days in terms of what they have been saying.
The president saying he doesn't want the U.S. to be involved in this issue. He says that the U.S. could easily become a handy political football. The president also said what he has been watching on television has been disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will continue to pursue a tough direct dialogue between our two countries and we'll see where it takes us. But even as we do so I think it would be wrong for me to be silent about what we have seen on the television over the last few days.
And what I would say to those people who put so much hope and energy and optimism into the political process I would say to them that the world is watching and inspired by their participation regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was. And they should know that the world is watching and particularly to the youth of Iran I want them to know that -- that we in the United States do not want to make any decisions for the Iranians but we do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LOTHIAN: And Kitty, perhaps the take away from the president's remark there is despite what we have seen leading up to the elections, and the controversial results of the elections as well, the president still saying that he plans to go ahead with tough dialogue with Iran and he says quote, "we'll see where it takes us." So the president again responding for the first time to the elections in Iran saying that he is troubled by what he is seeing but still planning to do dialogue with Iran.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much Dan Lothian. Thanks Dan.
Turning now to U.S. politics -- President Obama took his health care campaign today to the nation's doctors -- the medical profession is skeptical of the president's plan. But President Obama continued to push for support of his trillion dollar plan. Suzanne Malveaux reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OBAMA: We are not a nation that accepts nearly 46 million uninsured men, women and children.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: We look out for one another. That's what makes us the United States of America. We need to get this done.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was just what the doctors ordered.
OBAMA: I need your help, doctors. I will listen to you and work with you to pursue reform that works for you.
MALVEAUX: A little bit of TLC while taking the bitter pill. President Barack Obama gave them both -- going after those who over- prescribe medications, tests and procedures with a soft touch.
OBAMA: And a lot of people in this room know what I'm talking about. You didn't enter this profession to be bean counters and paper pushers. You entered this profession to be healers.
MALVEAUX: A standing ovation, but docs took their medicine.
DR. RAJAM RAMAMURTHY, UNIV. OF TEXAS HEALTH SCIENCE CENTER: I was so, you know pleased that he was so open about issues that are not very pleasing to our ears.
MALVEAUX: The president even briefly got booed for not setting a limit on how much patients can sue their doctors for malpractice. But the tense moments soon turned into another standing ovation.
OBAMA: This is going to be a priority for me.
MALVEAUX: Just addressing the issue was seemingly enough for some.
DR. JOHN NEELD, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: When a patient comes into my hospital with indigestion it could be a heart attack. If you evaluate the patient and you don't think it is likely and yet you don't get a cardiology consultation and God forbid something bad happens then somebody is going to be serving a subpoena for a lawsuit.
MALVEAUX: But the doctors were most skeptical about the president's government health care insurance plan, an alternative to private programs.
OBAMA: If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor, period. If you look your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan, period.
MALVEAUX: For many doctors just a start.
DR. WILLARDA EDWARDS, PRES.-ELECT, NAT'L MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: There are a lot of questions and details are always questionable.
MALVEAUX (on camera): Among the details doctors are looking for how the president will pay for the $1 trillion overhaul. So far the president has announced intended cuts to Medicare, Medicaid and to hospitals.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Chicago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: A new plan to build the presidential helicopter fleet in this country and creating common ground for our nation's students.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have got right is now 50 different sets of standards, 50 different tests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: New national standards to boost learning in our schools.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A new plan tonight to build the presidential helicopter fleet in this country. U.S. helicopter maker Sikorsky is trying to revive its bid to build those helicopters. An earlier contract with Lockheed and its European partners was canceled at the beginning of this month. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When the president steps off the helicopter on the White House lawn, he gets off a Sikorsky, but the company lost its bid to build the next generation of helicopter and that program has been controversial ever since. The bid want to a European country teamed with America's Lockheed Martin.
It was to be the new high-tech, bigger, longer range version. A more expensive version that grew even more expensive by the day. Those costs and other complications created a moment of agreement between political rivals back in February.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I don't think that there is any more graphic demonstration of how good ideas have cost taxpayers enormous amount of money.
OBAMA: The helicopter I have now seems perfectly adequate to me. Of course I have never had a helicopter before so -- you know?
TUCKER: He knew and so did his defense secretary who terminated the contract effective June 1st. According to some defense analysts, that decision is not going to save taxpayers any money.
LOREN THOMPSON, LEXINGTON INSTITUTE: When all is said and done here we are not going to save any money. We are going to spend billions of dollars unnecessarily and the president is going to get a new helicopter much later than we planned.
TUCKER: Thompson notes that the government has spent $3.3 billion in development costs alone on the now canceled helicopter. Sikorsky wants to re-enter the bidding saying it would like to team with rival Lockheed. And that argues one trade economist could be the silver lining in this whole mess.
CLYDE PRESTOWITZ, ECON. STRATEGY INSTITUTE: This order will promote the cutting edge of the next generation of chopper technology and it would be nice if that cutting edge were in the U.S. It has been until now and it would be nice for it to stay here.
TUCKER: Part of Sikorsky's original proposal was that the helicopter would be 100 percent made in America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Ask about the Sikorsky overture, Lockheed said its original partnership remains in effect. The Navy now says it is reviewing its options. There has been no announcement made on when or if even bidding will reopen on a contract for the new helicopter. Presidential helicopter fleet does need to be replaced. Some of those aircraft, Kitty, are at least 30 years old.
PILGRIM: In this economy though this seems like something that should be...
TUCKER: In this economy every job that we can get and keep and put people back to work here and on a payroll is welcome, yes.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much Bill Tucker.
Well we would look to know what you think and here is tonight's poll question -- do you think the helicopter that carries the president of the United States should be made in the United States? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com and we'll bring you the results a little bit later in this broadcast.
The Supreme Court today refused to hear a challenge to the construction of a 700-mile new border fencing. Now the justices rejected an appeal from El Paso, Texas and private groups. The groups claim the government had no authority to waive laws to speed up construction. El Paso's county attorney said that the court's decision effectively ended their pursuit to stop this fence. Construction began during the Bush administration and is nearing completion.
Senate Democrats tonight are going ahead with a plan to replace Real ID. Now the new plan has the backing of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano. Real ID was passed in response to a key recommendation of the 9/11 Commission. Now under Real ID states had to restrict rules to make driver's licenses harder to obtain fraudulently.
Some states refused to implement Real ID. They said the program was too expensive -- expensive and under funded by the federal government. The new proposal is said to be less expensive. And critics say the new proposal could compromise the nation's security.
Well the nation's governors are trying to do what the federal government cannot. Set uniform national education standards. Now right now it is up to each state to set its own standards and critics say that means some states, the bar is set so low that children graduating from high school without essential basic skills.
But persuading all the states to agree on one set of standards is going to be an enormous challenge. Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Students from other countries are outperforming U.S. students in math and science. According to a 2007 report, the latest numbers available, the number of students scoring at or above proficient in reading has been dropping since 1992. Critics say the U.S. school system is failing to prepare kids for college and the work force. Now the National Governors Association is trying to draw up new national standards.
DANE LINN, NAT'L GOVERNORS ASSOCIATION: This is the first time that governors and state commissioners of education have ever, ever come around the table to agree that now is the time to develop a set of common, academic standards that do not vary from state to state.
SYLVESTER: The federal program No Child Left Behind requires regular testing to make sure all students reach a learning standard. But it is left up to the 50 states to set those standards. The easiest way to reach their target -- set the achievement bar low. But U.S. Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan at an education conference said that has to change. The administration is devoting up to $350 million to help states develop the new standards that would parallel national standards in other industrialized countries.
ARNE DUNCAN, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: Our children today aren't competing down the block or in the district or in the state for jobs. They're competing with children in India and China. And we want to level the playing field.
SYLVESTER: But establishing one national U.S. standard won't be easy. Michael Petrilli with the Fordham Foundation, an education think-tank predicts culture wars.
MICHAEL PETRILLI, THOMAS B. FORDHAM INSTITUTE: And the question is well are the standards going to include literature? If they include literature is it going to be all dead white men or is it going to be a more diverse selection of authors? Well that gets you into whole other debates. So the real question here is when the standards come out are there going to be some serious fights going on in this country particularly from the sort of extreme right and the extreme left once they see those standards. SYLVESTER: Another obstacle, the cost of change -- new teacher training requirements, new textbooks, and new tests.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And there are also political concerns, lawmakers and some heads of school districts might be reluctant to find out that they thought their students were doing well only to find out they aren't. But many policymakers and educators say this still has to be done. Dane Lynn (ph) with the National Governors Association said it is time to end the charade and to create a system that holds students to a higher standard -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Well that certainly makes a good deal of common sense. Thanks very much Lisa Sylvester.
Still to come -- an elderly couple wins big, but says that is no reason to quit their day jobs. Also ahead:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fortunate that a few, in a city of four million, you know try to disrupt and try to go to excess.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Young people flood the streets. Police respond. In Tehran, the bloodshed is over votes. In Los Angeles, the violence is over something much different.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Young people take to the streets and violence erupts. On one side of the world it is so their voices are heard and votes are counted. On the other side it is because their basketball team won. Casey Wian reports on two very different types of street violence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hundreds of thousands of Iranians have taken to the streets of Tehran in protest after the ruling government of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claimed victory over his reformist rival Mir Hossein Mousavi.
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (INAUDIBLE)
WIAN: Supporters of Mousavi claim the election results were rigged, an effort to stifle their demands for human rights, personal freedoms and closer relations with the West.
FAWAZ GERGES, PROF. SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: There's a major crisis taking place in Tehran today.
WIAN: A crisis that seemed to grow after at least one of the apparently peaceful protestors was shot dead. Seventy-five hundred miles away in Los Angeles, another street disturbance that had nothing to do with politics or principles, but did have an entire police force on tactical alert.
Some fans of the Los Angeles Lakers basketball team celebrated the team's championship victory by lighting fires, looting stores, and throwing rocks and bottles. They attacked police cars, city buses and private vehicles. The post victory street disturbance rapidly becoming an American sports tradition.
CHRISTIAN END, PROF., XAVIER UNIV.: We are starting to develop this -- this script, or this sort of cognitive map for when our team wins this championship, the way to celebrate is to participate in these riots. And I think that is dangerous because not only does it sort of prime us or you know get us ready to celebrate in this destructive manner. Others would hold us accountable for our behaviors. And they may develop this attitude well you know that's what you do following these championships.
WIAN: In Iran protesters were beaten by civilian militia motorcycle riders loyal to the government. In Los Angeles, Police Chief William Bratton praised his officers for showing what he called incredible restraint.
WILLIAM BRATTON, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: Unfortunate that a few in a city of four million you know try to disrupt and try to go to excess.
WIAN: Eight police officers were injured during the melee; at least 18 civilians were arrested.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: While the demonstrations in Iran seem to be gathering momentum, disturbance in Los Angeles quickly ran out of steam. But here in L.A. there is a decent chance street violence could return in October. Right now the Los Angeles Dodgers have the best record in baseball, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Casey, it just underscores what a fortunate society we live in. Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Well some other stories we are following tonight across the country. In California tonight the June 15th deadline for a budget deal has come and gone. But Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger warns that the state will simply run out of money if a new budget isn't approved by the end of the month. The state is suffering under a record $24 billion budget shortfall. State Democrats and Republicans seem at an impasse tonight they are unable to agree over deep budget cuts and various tax increases.
In Syracuse, New York, an elderly couple that just won $35 million say they will keep working. Abraham and Cecelia Silverbush (ph), both in their seventies won the mega millions lottery. Abraham (ph) owns an upholstery shop. Cecelia (ph) is a grade school teacher and they will share their winnings with their five children.
The international custody battle over an American child in Brazil -- his father joins me tonight. And outrage in Iran over the re-election of Ahmadinejad. The results are still in dispute, we'll have more on that story next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: As we have been reporting tonight hundreds of thousands of people have flooded Iran's streets to protest the re-election of President Ahmadinejad. Now this is an historic display of public anger against Ahmadinejad and the clerics who rule Iran. Joining me now to discuss where this may go, what it means, is Fouad Ajami. He is the director of Middle East Studies at Johns Hopkins University. Thank you very much for being with us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: You know I think the real operative question is, is this a step forward, this many people in the streets, or is this a step backward, an election that potentially has some issues?
FOUAD AJAMI, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV.: It is remarkable in fact when people cross the threshold of fear. I mean this is a very tenacious theocracy. There are no regimes, not a very nice regime. It's a very liberal regime. It would be easy for people to just give it a bye, but the fact that people have gone into the streets is a measure of their despair and a measure of their determination to hold the order to some kind of standard and some kind of accountability.
PILGRIM: The Guardian Council supported Ahmadinejad. Will we get any kind of satisfying results out of this investigation?
AJAMI: There is no way. I mean maybe, perhaps a week from today, you will call me back and we will eat our words. There is no way this Guardian Council is going to reconsider the results of the election. Because in fact it will call into question the very legitimacy of the whole regime. Because this election in many way are fake, the regime was never on the ballot and the Iranians haven't experienced -- they have an experience with someone who's a reformer, (INAUDIBLE) elected twice, and the fact of the matter is the constitution, the theocracy of Iran did not change.
PILGRIM: Mousavi has a reputation of being a big reformer, but in fact he does not believe in the existence of Israel. He defended the taking of hostages in 1979 and he also told "The Financial Times" in April no one in Iran would accept the suspension of uranium enrichment. Is he the big reformer that he is being played up to be in the press?
AJAMI: No, absolutely not. What there is -- there is a big difference between him and Ahmadinejad because Ahmadinejad has taken the revolution in a radically different direction.
PILGRIM: Right.
AJAMI: Also look at the two men. They are one generation apart. They are 15 years apart, so Ahmadinejad comes from the Revolutionary Guard. He comes from the bandit side of the regime. He comes from the thuggish side of the regime. Mousavi is an older man, and he comes from when the regime was still held by some kind of norms of decent conduct. That is really the difference.
PILGRIM: Let's talk what it means to the United States. It's a very big issue for the United States in the fact that we have been trying to get some kind of progress on the nuclear issue for Iran for many decades. So let me ask you, first let's listen to what President Obama had to say. He made his first public comments just, a while ago. So let's listen to that first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is up to Iranians to make decisions about who Iran's leaders will be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: It appears we are having some trouble. He said it is up to the Iranians to make decision about who Iran's leaders will be. We respect Iranian sovereignty and we want to avoid the U.S. being the issue inside Iran which some times the U.S. can be made a handy political football.
This is an extremely tough line for the United States, because you really can't say much because it can backfire. What should, is there something that you think the president should or not be saying at this point?
AJAMI: I think he exactly said the right thing. What could he say? In fact, the critics of President Obama are making this election a verdict on President Obama. This has nothing to do with the President Obama. As the election in Lebanon, a week or so ago had nothing to do with President Obama. This is really an account in Iran, between those who want liberty and those who want piety.
And let's not understand the tenacity and the depth of Ahmadinejad's support. He has the support of the rural countryside, he has the support of the newly urbanized. He has the support of the besiege, its volunteers, and of the Revolutionary Guard. It is a fight we are seeing between liberty on one side and piety and conservative Iran on the other.
PILGRIM: You know, this does complicate though President Obama's outreach to Iran. As, his hope for discussion, that sort of thing. What position does it put him in now?
AJAMI: Well, I think President Obama when he was candidate Obama, I think he really underestimated the unwillingness of Iran to negotiate with the United States. A whole bunch of people and you and I know many of them, commentators, who kept insisting that we should offer the Iranians an olive branch, that the Iranian regime does not want deep negotiations with the United States. That people in power, the supreme guard, the clerics, these technocrats around the supreme guard, the entire apparatus of the Iranian theocracy do not want any negotiations with the United States and I think President Obama should have been ready for this. And I think that's, that's where he could be faulted, if fault is to be assigned.
PILGRIM: Well, certainly they hold their position of power by making opposition with the United States. It really undercuts their power to actually have a dialogue with the United States.
AJAMI: Absolutely, why should they open the window, why should they render the regime of theirs vulnerable to currents from outside? They have the world they want. I mean this is -- it's hubris on our part to think that the people in Iran and the people who rule Iran are simply waiting for an approach from the United States. It's -- it's a false reading of history I think.
PILGRIM: I know it is impossible to predict. But will we see this violence die down or will we see it continue?
AJAMI: That is a hard one.
PILGRIM: You have just come back from Saudi Arabia, you've been in the region, different country.
AJAMI: Exactly. In Saudi Arabia, no one goes out into the streets. The heat will get them. The separation between men and women will get them.
Iran is a different land. But I think probably, it will, it will calm. The storm will have to calm. And I think that's what this, the supreme guide finally saying. We will look into it. It is an attempt to buy a respite for everyone concerned.
PILGRIM: Fouad Ajami, we love your analysis. Thank you so much for your expertise.
AJAMI: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Coming up, in our face off tonight, how to reenergize the Republican Party and win back voters. And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still wake up every morning under a roof where my son should be tucked in his bed down the hall and he is not there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: We'll have the latest on the fight over a 9-year-old boy, New Jersey boy stuck in Brazil. His father is our guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Tonight, an international custody battle over a 9-year- old boy. His mother took him to Brazil for vacation five years ago and then refused to bring him back to the United States. Now the boy's father, David Goldman, has been fighting for custody of his son ever since. But the case has been mired in Brazil's judicial system and complicated by the death of the boy's mother. Ines Ferre reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tuesday marks the five-year anniversary of events that have brought nothing but turmoil and pain to David Goldman.
DAVID GOLDMAN, FATHER: I still wake up every morning under a roof where my son should be tucked in his bed down the hall and he's not there.
FERRE: In 2004, Goldman's then wife Bruna Bianchi went on vacation to Brazil with their 4-year-old son Sean, apparently with no intention of returning to New Jersey. Bianchi divorced Goldman and later remarried a prominent Brazilian lawyer. She died from complications while giving birth to another child last year. Sean remained in the care of his stepfather.
Over the last several months, Goldman's case has taken on a higher political profile. In March, State Secretary Hillary Clinton intervened and then President Obama discussed the issue with his counterpart, Brazilian President Lula Da Silva. This month, the federal judge in Brazil ruled the 9-year-old boy should be returned to the father.
Days later, the country's highest court unanimously determined it had no superseding authority over the Hague Convention, a treaty promoting international cooperation on child abduction. This international family law expert says Brazil is often known for not adhering to the pact.
JEREMY MORLEY, INTERNATIONAL FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: They're not one of the best compliers with the treaty. Until this child is on the plane, he is still over there, and -- there may still be different ways in which the courts over there can block the return.
FERRE: With the high court ruling, the case now goes back down to an appeals court in Rio. It doesn't mean the boy will be returned to the father without further legal rulings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FERRE: And a lawyer for the family in Brazil says the boy has repeatedly he wants to stay in Rio. Now one international law expert we spoke with says attempts to delay the case can play into the claim that the child is old enough and mature enough to make up his own mind, even if influenced by his environment. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Ines Ferre.
Well, joining me now is David Goldman. And he just returned from Brazil. And David, thanks very much for joining us. A tough subject to be talking about on live television. But, let me start with tomorrow is the fifth anniversary of when your son was taken to Brazil. You have recently had the Supreme Court in Brazil side with you. But they actually deferred the case down to a lower court. Tell us, legally where you think you stand right now. GOLDMAN: Well, we're in the second level federal court which would decide if the return order by the first federal judge would be honored. And the family filed, or actually the man, the Brazilian husband filed an appeal and they stayed the order to return my son home with me. And we're waiting for that -- that decision. It could be a three-judge panel in the second level federal court in Rio.
PILGRIM: Have they told you how soon it could come down?
GOLDMAN: No, I have been told it will be fast tracked, nothing like up to this point. We are at five years. And with the unanimous Supreme Court ruling, and the order from the first level federal judge, hopefully things will be moving in a more expeditious nature.
PILGRIM: You have the full weight of the U.S. government behind you. In 2009, both houses of Congress passed legislation about this. You had Congressman Chris Smith go down to Brazil. You had President Obama talk about the case with the president of Brazil on March 14th. You've had Secretary of State Hillary Clinton make a statement which I will read to our audience. "It has taken a long time for this day to come. But we will work with the Goldman family and the Brazilian government with the goal of ensuring this young boy's return."
Are you satisfied with the level of involvement that the U.S. government has taken on this and do you think it was timely enough?
GOLDMAN: Well, for four years, essentially, I was on my own. And until she passed away, I was on my own. And I'm grateful that our government stepped up and had done something and is doing something and will continue to do something until my son is brought home. Along with the continued focus on -- the other 50 cases of American children who are also trapped in Brazil.
PILGRIM: Yes, in a way this highlights many other people in your situation. Let me talk to you a little bit about your visits. You go to Brazil frequently. Talk to me about the quality of your visits with your son?
GOLDMAN: Unfortunately, there is no quality of visits. We are in a compound, in a common area, under constant surveillance. And -- every time we are separated, he goes back upstairs, my son, Sean goes back up into the apartment and gets emotionally traumatized. As was evidenced in the court ruling and the three court appointed expert Brazilian psychologist whose evaluated him.
PILGRIM: Must be extremely, emotionally difficult to actually have these visits with him, I'm sure?
GOLDMAN: It is. But I mean, he is my son. I am his dad. And there is nothing more pure on this earth than a parent and one's own child. And that's all I see. I look in his eyes and I feel his love and I give him as much love as I can under those terrible circumstances.
PILGRIM: You know, I understand your former wife's family has hired and employed a private psychologist to do some analysis. What have you, thought about the results from this psychologist that they actually hired?
GOLDMAN: A hired gun. That's not for me to think one way or another. I know the facts of the case. I know the three Brazilian court appointed professional mental health experts who evaluated my son who actually even referenced the psychologist you are talking about as being very interfering in, in their work with Sean, and pressuring him and influencing him to say the things that she wants him to say, out of fear that he will go back to -- to the apartment and be traumatized.
It's very, very sad. And as a parent to watch your child suffer and not be able to do a thing about it is beyond cruel.
PILGRIM: David, the country is watching with you. As is the U.S. government and we wish you every success. Thank you very much for being on the broadcast.
GOLDMAN: Thank you, Kitty, thank you.
PILGRIM: A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Do you think that the helicopter that carries the president of the United States should be made in the United States? Yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few moments.
There is a battle going on for the soul of the Republican Party. Tonight's face-off debate, should conservatives move to the center?
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PILGRIM: Republicans hoping for a return to power are hearing conflicting messages on how to win back voters. And that is the subject of our face-off debate tonight. Joining me now is Matt Lewis who writes for politicsdaily.com and townhall.com and he says conservatives need to be true to their ideals.
And also with me is Reihan Salam, he is the writer for "The Atlantic" and author of "Brand New Party: How Republicans Can Win The Working Class and Save the American Dream." He says it is time for the Republican Party to move to the center.
So gentlemen, thanks very much for being with me. Let me start with you, Reihan. This shifting, it's the subject of great debate. Do you lose some of your power in shifting positions?
REIHAN SALAM, WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: I don't think so. I think that you can be ideologically pure and then have no power at all. There are a lot of conservatives in America, about a third of the country is conservative, far more than is liberal. And yet, actually half of those self identified conservatives want to roll back some or all of the Bush tax cuts. They themselves are less ideological, than a lot of the conservatives who claim to speak in their name. So I think that real mainstream conservatives want to build coalitions with those voters in the middle. They want to take the reins of power so that they could slowly make our government cheaper and more effective to deliver the goods for regular folks.
PILGRIM: Matt, this sounds very coherent, what do you think?
MATT LEWIS, WRITER: Well, I think Reihan is very coherent. He's a very smart guy who just happens to be completely wrong on this issue. I mean, look, one thing he was right about is that 40 percent according to a recent Gallup poll, 40 percent of Americans identify themselves as conservative. That's twice as many as identify themselves as liberal.
Now the idea that the Republican Party would in any way be better off by sort of going to the center and alienating conservatives flies in the face. I mean, if you are the Republican Party and you are attempting to gain power again, the last thing in the world that you would want to do is to moderate. I mean, look, Barack Obama understood that the way to beat George W. Bush was to be the opposite of George W. Bush. That's how you win elections. And the idea that we can sort of be Democrat light and win is preposterous.
PILGRIM: Let me just, while we're quoting polls here, that same poll found 36 percent of Americans considers themselves Democratic, so how do you reconcile that with the fact that they identify, 40 percent identify themselves as conservative. It almost cancels each other out does it not, Matt?
LEWIS: Well, we do have these things that are called conservative Democrats and there's still a lot of folks around the country who live in red states who are conservative Democrats.
But look, I think this poll is consistent with other trends that we're seeing. For the first time ever, we saw more than 50 percent of Americans are now pro life and call themselves pro life. So the notion that the way the Republican Party should get back for power is to become more liberal is absurd.
I will say this, the problem is the Republican Party is, indeed, in trouble and a lot of it is due to George W. Bush who was not a conservative. You know, he never vetoed a spending bill for like the first six years he was there. He gave us things like Medicare part D and frankly, a lot of Reihan's solutions in his book are very similar to the so-called compassionate conservatism that George W. Bush advocates.
PILGRIM: Let's let Reihan get in here on this.
SALAM: Here is the thing. Conservatives who say that we need to talk exclusively about spending are actually saying we're going to talk only about say, earmarks. We're not going to talk about Medicare and Medicaid. Why? Because Republicans know those programs are not fairly popular.
LEWIS: I don't think I said that.
SALAM: You didn't. You didn't.
LEWIS: I'm all for finding creative solutions.
SALAM: Hold on for a second, Matt. So what I'm saying is that if you want to talk about creative solutions, you need to talk about the whole pie. You can't just talk about a narrow slice of government spending. That means you have to think about making some of these programs work effectively. Now in terms of moving to the center, the center is the median voter. Meaning it doesn't mean some kind of squishiness. It doesn't mean becoming more liberal. It means addressing the real concerns of real voters. And real voters do not care about the same exact things that voters cared about in 1980.
It's just a fact. They care more about health care. They care less about the marginal rate of tax. And that means that Republicans like Paul Ryan are doing the right thing when they are talking about the issues that Americans are talking about around their kitchen tables. And yet, they get attacked for not being sufficiently conservative by saying, you know what? The federal government might have to take a role.
So I think this is really a non-argument, because, you know, we both agree that the party ought to be conservative. I'm saying that moving to the center means moving where actual mainstream conservatives in the country are rather than people who are performing conservatism.
PILGRIM: Let me throw out this. How do you reconcile that with Mike Huckabee's recent comments that it's great when they move to the mushy middle, they get squishy and then they get beat.
SALAM: I think that Mike Huckabee is an interesting character. I think he wants to be president and I think he knows that the Republican Party has shrunk. So you reach out to the people who vote in Republican primaries today, not the people who were voting in Republican primaries in, say, 1992.
So I think here is the thing. We have a lot of Independents in this country and a lot of them are people who are conservatives who used to identify as Republicans and now believe the Republican Party is an outer space. They are talking about things that don't matter to them. They are talking about things that matter to again a handful of folks who want to be authentic pure conservatives.
PILGRIM: Let me ask Matt this, because this is an interesting point. When you talk to anyone, they don't know who the leader of the conservative movement is. Let's take a look at a couple of polls. Who speaks for the Republican Party? This is a national poll. We have more than half of the country doesn't know. OK? And then Republicans, same thing. Who speaks for the Republican Party? Forty- seven of Republicans don't know. Matt, is there a identity issue here? Is there a problem with image?
LEWIS: Look. I think that's an entirely to be expected and not necessarily a bad thing. If you asked five years ago who the head of the Democratic Party is, I'm sure you would have gotten different answers.
I'm not necessarily an advocate of the strong man theory of politics, but I say will say this. Having a charismatic leader like Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama goes a long way. It was just five years ago that Zell Miller wrote a book about the Democratic Party called "A National Party No More."
I remember a couple of years ago, Republicans like Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove talking about Republicans having sort of a generational control over things. So things do go back and forth and I don't necessarily think that's a problem. I do take issue with something that Reihan said earlier though about Paul Ryan.
I think he is making an issue over something that I probably wrote. Paul Ryan actually voted for this bailout, this government bailout. And look, I'm all for finding creative solutions to today's problems, but they need to be done using free market solutions and they need to be done in such a way as to benefit and give liberty to the individual, not to give power to the government and, frankly, that's the difference between my sort of conservatism and Reihan's brand of conservatism.
PILGRIM: You know, Reihan, I want you to respond to that but I really have to throw in my own question here. Women are more likely to be Democratic than conservative. How do you win women?
SALAM: That's an excellent question. Well look, women are the majority of the electorate. I think that a big problem with the Republican Party is actually not about this or that constituency. It's not about winning Asian-American females or Latinos or this group or that group. It's really about having a broad message that connects with people.
And I think the Reagan message that was the most effective message was there are barriers that are being put in your way by, you know, whether it's government or it can be a variety of other things, and we're here to reduce those barriers for you to get ahead economically, for you to live up to your economic aspiration. And there are a lot of women who could really connect with that message.
Now, to this, you know, broader point about Paul Ryan, I think that he has actually done a lot of great stuff on health care. I don't agree with him with regard to that this or that bailout. I don't agree with him on every issue. But I think you see a lot of folks, including Tom Coburn moving to the right place in terms of really addressing those tangled, tough domestic policy questions or simply saying let's push the lever to more or less government. That's not the issue.
The issue is do you understand the issues and actually can you unravel this tangle? Government has a huge role in health care now and, you know, so the issue is, you know, how do you kind of solve the problem to make it work better for normal people?
PILGRIM: Reihan Salam and Matt Lewis, the debate continues. Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Campbell Brown. Campbell?
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, Kitty. Coming up, David Letterman backing down. He has now apologized to Governor Sarah Palin for those jokes about her daughter. So did the governor win the PR war? We're going to talk about that coming up.
Also, were the elections in Iran rigged? If so, what does it mean for the Obama administration and their plans to try to engage Iran diplomatically? Plus, our great debate. It centers on the war on words with Leon Panetta and Dick Cheney. Also tonight, Melissa Etheridge speaking out about smoking pot during her battle with cancer. We've got it all at the top of the hour, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Campbell Brown. We'll have tonight's poll results and some of your thoughts straight ahead.
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PILGRIM: We have the results of tonight's poll, 97 percent of you think that the helicopter that carries the president of the United States should be made in the United States.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Roger in Idaho: "Why can't the American taxpayer get the same healthcare that our Congress has?"
Janice in Florida: "If the new health care plan is so great, why don't our elite politicians drop theirs and drop Obama's health plan?"
And Chris in Texas: "I find it troubling that our president refers to critics of his health care plan as naysayers and fearmongers, yet in the same breath, he offers to our current healthcare system as a ticking time bomb. And it seems to me the only fearmongering is coming from our president."
Tom in Minnesota: "When President Obama and Democrats say they want health insurance coverage for all Americans, do they include the 20 million illegals in that cost?"
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts. Go to LouDobbs.com. A reminder to join Lou on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show" 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. each afternoon on WOR 710 radio in New York. Go to LouDobbsRadio.com to find the local listing for "The Lou Dobbs Show" on the radio. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. Campbell Brown starts right now.
