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Lou Dobbs This Week
Bush in Latin America; Administration Policy Discussion
Aired March 10, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Before we go over to Mr. Lou, let's go and check you out on some of the big stories that we're following for you right now.
First of all, President Bush tries to accentuate the positive on his six day goodwill tour of Latin America. Today Mr. Bush stopped in Uruguay, that's where he and the first lady met with that country's president. But their arrival was marred by demonstrations like this one. This is in Montevideo, that's the capital of Uruguay.
And here's something else no one has seen in nearly three decades. U.S. and Iranian diplomats actually sitting down and talking to one another despite the objections of U.S. officials for so long, it's actually happening now. The subject, finding better ways to secure Iraq. Iran's deputy foreign minister says the United States has been suffering from intelligence failures.
Outside the conference walls, this sobering reality, another suicide car bomb exploded in Baghdad today at a checkpoint there, at least 20 civilians were killed, 45 others were wounded. Other attacks on the capital left as many as six people dead.
Nevada now, Democrats there have called off an August presidential debate cosponsored by Fox News. The channel's chief Roger Ailes is getting the blame for this one. State party leaders say that Ailes made an unacceptable joke referring to Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama. Fox News says the flap shows that Nevada Democrats are controlled by fringe interest groups.
He died Christmas Day. Today, James Brown's body was finally placed in a crypt near his daughter's home in South Carolina. According to several reports, it's going to be a temporary resting place for the music legend while a public mausoleum is still being built.
I'm Rick Sanchez. If news breaks, certainly we'll break in and bring it to you. Right now, let's go over to Lou.
LOU DOBBS, CNN HOST: Tonight, the secret intelligence war between the United States and Iran in Iraq. Is the United States losing control of Iraq's intelligence agencies? We'll have an exclusive report for you from Baghdad tonight.
And the White House and Senate Democrats renewing their push to give amnesty to as many as 20 million illegal aliens in this country. Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner says he will strenuously oppose any such effort. Congressman Sensenbrenner is among our guests here tonight.
All of that and more straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK, news, debate and opinion for Saturday, March 10.
Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. President Bush tonight faces new protests as he continues his week-long tour of Latin America. President Bush trying to combat the growing influence of leftists in governments all across the Western Hemisphere. Latin America's most powerful leftist, President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela visited Argentina.
Chavez, who has call the president the devil accused the United States of trying to dominate Latin America. Ed Henry reports now from the Brazilian city of Sao Paolo. Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, President Bush sidestepped a question about the latest insult from Hugo Chavez basically saying, go home, gringo. President Bush not wanting to answer that because he does not want to be drawn into a one-on-one with Chavez. But it's clear that their shadowboxing, if you will, has become front and center during the president's seven-day tour through Latin America.
The president toured a biofuel plant with his Brazilian counterpart at one point and President Bush took a stab at what might be called ethanol diplomacy, inking a deal with Brazilian President Lula Da Silva that Mr. Bush hopes will choke off some of Hugo Chavez's power by cutting into his oil riches.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's in the interests of the United States that thereby a prosperous neighborhood and one way to help spread prosperity in Central America is for them to become energy producers, not remain dependent on others for their energy sources.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, whipped up by Chavez's anti-American rhetoric protests have been building all across Latin America. Chavez himself planning what he calls anti-imperialist rallies aimed at overshadowing the president's tour through Latin America. U.S. officials are privately charging that these rallies and protests are not happening spontaneously, that Chavez is paying people to show up at the protests to make the crowds larger and try and show up the U.S. president. Lou?
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much. Ed Henry reporting from Brazil.
As the president continues his tour of Latin America, U.S. and Iranian diplomats attended a regional conference in Baghdad. Trying to stop the insurgency from escalating into an all-out civil war. Their meeting comes amid new concerns about Iran's increasing role in the Iraqi government, their fears Iran could soon take control of Iraq's intelligence agencies outright. Michael Ware has our exclusive report from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the face of the intelligence wars here. An Iraqi officer unable to show his identity, amid the shambles of his agency's southern head quarters.
It was stormed, not by Sunni insurgents or Shia militia, but by coalition troops and Iraqi special forces who suspect he's working for another side.
It's a scene far from the other Iraq War on TV screens, of roadside bombs, suicide attacks and fire fights. This is a conflict waged in the hidden world of espionage between intelligence agencies sponsored by the CIA and Iran. It's about who controls Iraqi intelligence and it's a battle the U.S. risks losing.
It's all here in this document from Iraq's National Security Council. In these pages, the blueprint for the nation's new intelligence community, a blueprint that would merge all intelligence gathering under Iraqi government control. A government heavily influenced by Iran.
It would be a damaging blow to the CIA which since the fall of Saddam's regime has built its largest station in the world here. U.S. intelligence sources tell CNN the agency has around 500 officers, more than the CIA presence in Saigon during the Vietnam War.
At stake is control of an organization ensconced inside this heavily defended building, the Iraqi National Intelligence Service or INIS.
CNN's repeated requests for on the record comment from the U.S. military, embassy and intelligence agencies in Iraq went unanswered. Meanwhile, the intelligence plan is due to go to the Iraqi parliament. And what happens there may be every bit as important as the battles on the streets of Baghdad. Michael Ware, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The political conflict over Iraq on Capitol Hill is escalating. House Democrats now demanding the withdrawal of all of our combat troops from Iraq by August of next year at the latest. The White House and some congressional Republicans saying that plan would handcuff our generals. Andrea Koppel reports now from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Setting up a possible showdown weapon President Bush, House Democratic leaders laid out their plan to withdraw U.S. combat troops from Iraq by summer's end 2008.
REP. JOHN MURTHA, (D) PA: This is all about readiness, it's all about protecting the troops and the families. KOPPEL: Under the Democrats' timetable, Mr. Bush would be required to certify by mid-summer and then again by mid-fall this year the Iraqi government was making progress towards meeting key political and military bench marks.
If the president could not show progress, then U.S. troops would begin withdrawing immediately. But if Mr. Bush said Iraqis were achieving these goals, that would buy the White House a few more months, but only until March, 2008, when Democrats say U.S. combat troops must begin leaving Iraq and be out six months later.
Speaker Nancy Pelosi say said she expected a majority of Democrats, including staunch anti-war members who want to get out now, will support this plan, which would be added to a request for about $100 billion in emergency war funding.
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) SPEAKER: I believe in the end, we will be unified on it. Many members of the Out of Iraq caucus have committed to this. They understand the wisdom of it.
KOPPEL: Before Pelosi unveiled her plan, leaders in the antiwar movement in the House unveiled one of their own, a proposal to withdraw U.S. troops by the end of this year, not next.
REP. JANICE SCHAKOWSKY, (D) IL: No more chances. No more waivers. No phony certifications, no more spending billions of dollars to send our children into the meat grinder that is Iraq.
KOPPEL: Republican leaders dismiss the plan outright, saying General Petraeus, not Nancy Pelosi, should be the one calling the shots.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER, (R) MINORITY LEADER: Unfortunately, our Democrat colleagues have put forth a plan that's going to micromanage the war on terror, put strings on the ability of our generals to get the job done.
KOPPEL (on camera): Meanwhile in, the Senate, Democratic leaders after weeks of trying to reach consensus, announced a possible vote on a new binding resolution as soon as next week with more modest goals than earlier drafts, this one calling for all U.S. troops to leave Iraq by early next year, remaining troops would have a much more limited mission. Andrea Koppel, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And still ahead, a new giveaway to the government of Mexico. Imagine that. A giveaway that would open this country's trucking industry to Mexican drug cartels. We'll have the special report.
Also, corporate elites trying to destroy what's left ever our middle class? Microsoft's chairman Bill Gates demanding Congress allow unlimited numbers of foreign technology workers into the country if he had his druthers. We'll have that story.
And disturbing new evidence that girls are at least as likely as boys now to abuse both drugs and alcohol. The war within, our special report, a great deal more, straight ahead. We'll be right back.
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DOBBS: New details this week of the Bush administration's plan to give Mexican trucks unrestricted access to American highways. The plan, according to critics, a threat to national security and the opening of another front against our middle class.
Microsoft founder and the richest man in the world, Bill Gates, told Congress we need more guest workers, in effect, taking more jobs from qualified Americans.
Lisa Sylvester reports now on the battle between Congress and the administration over that plan to open our highways to Mexican trucks. Bill Tucker reports on what many call the outright audacity of Bill Gates' claim that in America there aren't enough qualified technology workers.
We begin with Lisa Sylvester in Washington. Lisa?
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Department of Transportation will begin a year long pilot program. Hundreds of Mexican truck drivers will be permitted to travel anywhere in the United States to deliver goods. Right now, they're limited to within 25 miles of the border. But some congressional lawmakers say it will leave a gaping hole in the nation's safety and security system.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (voice-over): Transportation secretary Mary Peters tried to downplay the program. Mexican companies would be limited to making only international deliveries, fewer than 1,000 Mexican trucks involved. Safety provisions in place.
MARY PETERS, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: This demonstration program by exercising it at this time will eliminate the very costly, very cumbersome, very outdated system of moving freight across the border with Mexico and replace it with a safe and efficient process.
SYLVESTER: The Transportation Department says the Mexican drivers will meet U.S. safety requirements and on-site audits will be performed. Despite reassurances, critics say the U.S. government is opening the country to increased drug traffic.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY, (D) WASHINGTON: In our new post 9/11 world, we have learned more about terrorist threats and how to prevent them. We have also learned a lot more about illegal immigration and the methods used to smuggle citizens into the United States.
SYLVESTER: There are also safety concerns.
SEN. FRANK LAUTENEBERG, (D) NJ: We don't know how many hours these truck drivers have been behind the wheel before they cross the border. We don't know whether truck driver drug and alcohol testing in Mexico is adequate. SYLVESTER: Mexican truck drivers are supposed to undergo drug and alcohol testing, but there is not a single certified drug testing laboratory in Mexico.
JAMES HJOFFA, INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF TEAMSTERS: Basically, is we're going to sacrifice the safety of our highways for some efficiency of an unsafe Mexican truck leaving the heart of Mexico and coming across with very little protection for American drivers.
SYLVESTER: U.S. drivers have to pass rigorous testing to be licensed in the United States. The bar is much lower for Mexican drivers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (on camera): There are so many unresolved issues including will U.S. law enforcement have access to Mexican truck drivers' driving records? How will the U.S. government check every truck in the pilot program before it enters the United States as promised?
And if the pilot program were extended, they would have to check 4.6 million trucks entering the United States from Mexico. These questions have not been fully answered, yet, Lou, somehow the Department of Transportation expects to begin this program within 60 days. Lou?
DOBBS: You might be able to put that under the heading both on the part of the Department of Transportation, arrogance and ignorance. Anybody asking the question what happens to American truck drivers as a result of this program?
SYLVESTER: The teamsters, for one, they are very concerned because they feel that this will lead to future job loss. They haven't been able to quantify it. But it's not hard to figure out it they open this up to Mexican truck drivers, wages will go down.
DOBBS: Common sense can lead us to a lot of correct conclusions. Thanks a lot, Lisa. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
The head of the world's -- one of the world's largest and certainly one of its richest companies and the richest man in the world himself was on Capitol Hill this week, testifying before a Senate committee and pleading for help. Microsoft's Bill Gates appealing to Congress to allow more high technology guest workers into the country and to remove future limits on such workers.
As Bill Tucker now tells us, the Gates plan would force many qualified American workers right out of the job market.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was Bill Gates Day at the Senate's Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee. He sat alone and wasn't shy when asked about what he wants to see happen with the H1B visa program, a temporary guest worker program for skilled workers.
BILL GATES, MICROSOFT CORP. CHAIRMAN: Even though it may not be realistic, I don't think there should be any limit.
TUCKER: The committee didn't deem it necessary to hear any opposing views. So ...
KIM BERRY, PRESIDENT, PROGRAMMERS GUILD: An unlimited number of H1Bs would just push an unimaginable number of U.S. workers right out of the job market. It would destroy the supply and demand that's necessary to encourage next generation of Americans to enter this profession.
RON HIRA, ROCHESTER INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY: He seems to be oblivious to basic economics, that there is supply and demand and the fact that foreign workers, what the economists call, will have a lower reservation wage.
TUCKER: That means they'll work for less. The median wage paid to an H1B visa worker in the United States according to the government is $50,000. Little wonder then that American students are showing less of an interest in computer sciences.
VIVEK WADHWA, DUKE UNIVERSITY: The solution is not to flood the market with cheap labor.
TUCKER: And most of those workers coming in at that lower wage are not working for American companies. Again, according to the government, seven of the top 10 applicants are Indian companies. Infoys Sechnologies, Wipro and Cognizant Technology Solutions took the top three spots all providing outsourcing solutions to American companies.
Even more interesting, there appears to be no apparent shortage of engineers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (on camera): A recent study by Duke's Pratt School of Engineering found that eight out of 10 companies filled open positions within four months. And Lou, few, if any of those companies need to offer a bonus to secure an employee. That's not the sign of a tight job market.
DOBBS: Or any shortage of workers. And I think the most fascinating thing in your report that these requests for H1B visas, seven out of 10 companies seeking those visas are Indian companies outsourcing here.
TUCKER: Yes.
DOBBS: Unbelievable. A little something that Bill Gates forgot to mention when testifying before the committee.
Glad you kept the record straight there, Bill Tucker. Thank you.
Coming up here next, startling numbers on teenage girls and substance abuse. We'll have our special report and the "War Within." And two leading illegal alien amnesty advocates meet, Senator Ted Kennedy, Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony talking strategy about upcoming comprehensive immigration reform or amnesty legislation. We'll have that report.
And on the other side of the spectrum, we'll hear from a strong advocate of true immigration reform, Congressman James Sensenbrenner joins us. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Tonight, "The War Within", our series of special reports on this country's war against drug and alcohol abuse and addiction. Alarming research shows teenage girls are now abusing drugs and alcohol at a disturbing rate. Christine Romans has one young woman's shocking story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twenty-six-year-old Nicole Stuckey begins each day writing notes to herself to stay sober. She took her first drink at 12, by high school, she was abusing alcohol. Then marijuana and acid. Landing in rehab twice. The picture of a happy 15-year-old, her life was a mess.
NICOLE STUCKEY, RECOVERING ADDICT: I failed five subjects in my high school and was kicked out. I was kicked off my soccer team, not cheerleading any more. The fights with my parents were amazing. My sister would hide under tables when I came inside. My brother stopped talking to me. It was just horrible.
ROMANS: And then ...
STUCKEY: I was completely and obliviously drunk. I blacked out and woke up to realize that I had lost my virginity and somebody had raped me.
ROMANS: Nicole says she abused alcohol to relax and fit in with friends, a common sentiment from girls who have now surpassed boys in the early teen years for drinking.
Koren Zailckas should know. She too spent her high school years smashed. She now writes and campaigns against the alarming trend of ...
KOREN ZAILCKAS, AUTHOR, "SMASHED": Young people, especially girls drinking explicitly to get drunk, to get to that state of beyond gone.
ROMANS: In eighth grade, just over 16 percent of boys report having a drink in the past month compared with almost 18 percent of girls. By 10th grade, again, the percentage of girls drinking as eclipsed the boys. By senior year, boys have retaken their traditional lead.
The shift alarms researchers who say even as overall rates inch lower, girls are falling into a dangerous pattern. DAVID ROSENBLOOM, JOIN TOGETHER AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY: Parts of the brain that control judgment are the parts that develop last. And alcohol and drugs affect the development of the adolescent brain in a very negative way.
ROMANS: Even now, Nicole says she struggles with being an addict every day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Clearly, Nicole's experience is dramatic and extreme, but thousands of girls like her are taking their first drink every day. Girls are increasingly becoming the face of teen abuse in this country. In eighth grade now, girls have eclipsed boys not only in alcohol, Lou, but in cigarette smoking and in illegal drugs other than marijuana.
DOBBS: Exactly the wrong direction and the wrong rate. This is such a -- it's the reason we're focusing on this issue. It is becoming a national crisis in every sense of the word. Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.
The federal government recently issued a shocking report on underage drinking in this country. According to the surgeon general there are 11 million underage drinkers in the United States. Each year, 5,000 deaths are linked to teen drinking. The study also found an astonishing 20 percent of 14-year-olds in the United States have been drunk at least once.
The surgeon general says there needs to be a nationwide attitude adjustment to deal with the crisis and underage drinking should not be considered a rite of passage.
Up next here, amnesty advocates, they are meeting to drum up support for the Senate's bill that would provide amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. We'll have a report on their efforts. And Congressman James Sensenbrenner, an advocate of tough policies on illegal aliens and securing our border joins us.
And the ACLU says conditions at an illegal alien detention center in Texas are inhumane. I'll be talking about that with the executive director of the ACLU, Anthony Romero. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Ted Kennedy is out pushing his amnesty legislation for illegal aliens. This week he met with leading amnesty advocates and as Casey Wian now reports, Senator Kennedy's meeting with Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony pushing his amnesty agenda for millions of illegal aliens is only the beginning.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator Ted Kennedy and Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony, the likeliest of bedfellows in the push for illegal alien amnesty. SEN. TED KENNEDY, (D) MA: I think all of us understand that our immigration laws are broken. And they need to be changed. To make sure that we are going to have secure borders, but also have an immigration legislation that was going to reflect our humanity.
WIAN: Mahony promised the Catholic Church will work hard to support Kennedy's amnesty effort.
ROGER CARDINAL MAHONEY, LOS ANGELES ARCHDIOCESE: This is an issue about people and the focus upon people who are our neighbors, people who live here in the United States who are contributing to our country, we simply cannot exclude them. We must find ways to bring them into the full light of our society.
WIAN: In the dark, however, are Republicans who favor border security first. They say they've been shut out of Kennedy's immigration reform negotiations. Kennedy is working with a few amnesty leaning Republicans, Senator John McCain and Congressman Jeff Flake, and a fellow Democrat, Luis Gutierrez. Gutierrez outlined their objectives to the U.S.'s Hispanic Chamber of Commerce.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ, (D) IL: Do we continue to hamper businesses that need immigrant labor to grow, hurt the families who are looking to provide for their loved ones, harm communities that need new immigrants to remain vibrant and strong?
Or do we end the hypocrisy and create a real way for workers to come here in a safe, orderly and legal manner to fill important jobs that Americans are unwilling or sometimes unable to do.
WIAN: Gutierrez did not say which jobs Americans are unable to do. But he did offer to support a fence, just not on the border.
GUITIERREZ: And if the restrictionists still really want to build their fence then I say let's build it. Let's build it around Lou Dobbs and the Minutemen.
WIAN: More creative language by amnesty advocates. Border security supporters are now restrictionists. Illegal aliens merely immigrants.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (on camera): Senator Kennedy says he expects his legislation to be introduced as early as next week and he is hoping for support from the president. Lou?
DOBBS: The Democratically-controlled Congress is about to introduce new immigration, comprehensive immigration reform legislation as they call it. This new legislation will, in effect, provide amnesty for millions of illegal aliens.
Congressman James Sensenbrenner last year proposed an immigration reform bill that rather than grant amnesty called for strong action and enforcement at our border. The congressman joins us now. Good to have you with us, Congressman Sensenbrenner.
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, (R) WI: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Congressman, this is rather an interesting thing that Senator Kennedy is pushing ahead. It looks to be, although we can't tell because it's still under wraps. This legislation looks to be very much patterned on last year's comprehensive immigration reform legislation. How do you think it will be received?
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I think it's going to be to the left of the Kennedy-McCain bill last year and it will end up being the laundry list of everything the illegal immigrants lobby has ever dreamed to get it. And I think we can beat it in the Senate and the House if the American public says we don't want amnesty and special privileges to those who have broken our laws.
DOBBS: Well, how so? Should they be talking to their congressmen, their senators? How can the American people express themselves? Because in poll after poll they've expressed themselves.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, every one of us has got to run for reelection in 2008 and this is the kind of vote that if you cast it the wrong way, the people are never going to forget.
Let me say what I've been hearing. They're talking about not having gradiated (ph) amnesty where if you've been here less than five years, you can't get it. They're talking about giving it to everybody.
They're talking about various kinds of giveaways to organized labor. Like increasing the cost of building the fence and the other high tech things along the border to make it too expensive, and they're talking about not doing anything about cracking down on people who hire hundreds or sometimes even thousands of illegal immigrants, which is already in violation of the law.
DOBBS: Congressman, why has there been such a reluctance, and the Republicans winning control of the House for more than a decade simply refuse to impose penalties on employers of illegal aliens?
Is there any way, and this is pivotal to solving this problem. Is that -- those penalties. What can be done about it? Why has nothing been done about it?
SENSENBRENNER: Well, Congress doesn't enforce the law.
DOBBS: Right.
SENSENBRENNER: Under the Constitution and separation of powers, that's the administration's responsibility.
I've been critical of the Bush administration, as well as the Clinton administration before it for not cracking down on employers who hire the illegal immigrants. And no matter how high or how comprehensively we build a wall, unless we turn off the magnet of jobs, illegal immigrants will figure out a way to get into our country and to get those jobs.
Now, there's kind of an unholy alliance between the Mexican government that gets a lot of money in remittances, the Chamber of Commerce and its members who get a lot of the cheap labor and churches and other groups that do really not make our immigration system work.
And you've also got to also remember that Kennedy was involved in three big laws that have caused this problem. And every change Senator Kennedy has made to our immigration laws has made our illegal immigration problems worse. He is responsible for a lot of the mess that we have today.
DOBBS: And that he mess also, Senator Kennedy, this past week meeting with the archbishop of the Los Angeles dioceses, Cardinal Roger Mahony. That is a very peculiar alliance, isn't it?
How do you react to involving churches and politics directly as is happening now?
SENSENBRENNER: Well, Mahony has taken it upon himself to be the spokesperson for illegal immigration, and he started it out about a year ago, and as a matter of fact, gave a blanket condemnation to my border security and employer sanctions bill when it passed the House of Representatives.
I have a lot of issues with Cardinal Mahony, but the fact of the matter remains is that he is the senior prelate of the largest Christian denomination in the United States and he has been using his office to advance this particular agenda.
You know, I think that in terms of it morality, not doing something about those who traffic in humans across the border and those who exploit the labor of vulnerable human beings has got to rank to the top of the list of things that are immoral. And I wish that the churches would speak out and help us control these problems.
DOBBS: Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, good to have you with us.
SENSENBRENNER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Up next, the Democrats say they finally have a plan to withdraw our troops from Iraq. We'll take a look, a close look at that proposal as well as other top stories. We'll be talking about that with some of the country's best political analysts.
And the ACLU accusing the federal government of inhumane treatment at one of its detention centers for illegal aliens in Texas. So what's the ACLU doing to help American citizens being adversely affected by illegal immigration?
I'll be talking with the ACLU's executive director Anthony Romero here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The American Civil Liberties Union this week filed a lawsuit trying to prevent the federal government from detaining illegal alien families at a center in Texas. As Bill Tucker now tells us, the ACLU wants to see a return to the policy of catch and especially release. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): It was a news conference designed to pull at the heart strings, held in a small room with children and their mothers. The children on display while the lawyers got down to business.
LISA GRAYBILL, LEGAL DIRECTOR, ACLU TEXAS: Our lawsuit alleges that the conditions of confinement at Hutto are inhumane and wholly inappropriate for children. We believe it is against the law and against American values to place young children in jail.
TUCKER: This is the detention facility they're talking about, the Hutto Detention Facility in Taylor, Texas. It's a converted medium security prison. Roughly 400 people are detained here, and about half are children. It's not home but as advocates for the enforcement of immigration law point out, the reason the families are here is because of a choice that the parents made to break the law.
IRA MEHLMAN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Look, nobody wants to see children incarcerated, detained. Everybody understands that children are innocent victims here. But the parents are the ones who put them in that situation in the first place. The parents are accountable. And in fact, the parents could end that situation very easily by simply accepting voluntary deportation.
TUCKER: The average stay according to ICE is 50 days, but that can be longer if they choose to exercise their right to appeal their case. ICE declined to comment directly on the lawsuit, saying it cannot comment on pending litigation.
But the agency did release a statement saying, quote, "Hutto is a modern facility designed to humanely accommodate families with children who are detained as a result of ICE enforcing the immigration laws of the United States."
A spokesman for the agency underlined that every person detained at Hutto is an illegal alien. No citizens, no anchor babies. Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: As Bill Tucker reported, the ACLU says the detention of illegal alien children is inhumane and un-American. Anthony Romero is the executive director of the ACLU. And I asked him just who is supporting all these lawsuits.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANTHONY ROMERO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ACLU: First, the courts support us. I think the broad level of American public support, when he they find out what's going on in Hutto, they'll be shocked.
DOBBS: Well, let's look at the video of the detention center and the people in it. If we can put it up here or up there. That's great.
This facility is by no means, you know, upper middle class superb. But it doesn't, as you look at that, Anthony, it doesn't look that bad to me. What do you think?
ROMERO: Well, I think the video is deceiving. Talk about the kids. Three to 16 years old who are clients. Some of them locked up in jail cells for 11 to 12 hours a day with no toys in their cells, no writing utensils.
DOBBS: In the cells, but we see all sorts of toys and facilities there.
ROMERO: I'm sure this piece of propaganda can be quite ...
DOBBS: Actually, this wasn't propaganda, this was taken by photographers ...
ROMERO: And a court of law will adjudicate it. That's the beautiful part of the American system ...
DOBBS: But I'm just trying to understand something ...
ROMERO: We'll be able to put forward the facts and the evidence of these students and these kids who have been denied educational services.
DOBBS: Educational services. They are typically in the facility less than 30 days.
ROMERO: No, absolute not.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
ROMERO: Some of clients were there for almost half a year.
DOBBS: You said some. I said most are there for less than 30 days.
ROMERO: But I think what's important to say is that even if they're there for a short period of time, they're entitled to those educational services.
DOBBS: Right.
ROMERO: Food, we have complaints that the kids are being inadequately fed. They're running around in prison uniforms.
DOBBS: Those little kids, they have prison uniforms.
ROMERO: They have prison uniforms. You bet.
DOBBS: Really?
ROMERO: And since 1997, there's been an order under agreements signed with the Justice Department, Flores versus Meese, that they're supposed to provide good facilities ...
DOBBS: Let me ask you just ...
ROMERO: Adequate food, adequate shelter, adequate education and they have violated every step of the way that very same consent decree.
DOBBS: How did they get there?
ROMERO: The U.S. government has arrested them.
DOBBS: For what?
ROMERO: The kids or who? The parents?
DOBBS: Well, yeah, the parents.
ROMERO: What's important, Lou.
DOBBS: We'll find out what you think is important. How about answering my question. How did they get there?
ROMERO: The parents are refugees. One of our clients is from Guyana. One of our clients is from Somalia.
DOBBS: And illegal aliens.
ROMERO: People are here - they are here illegally but they have a right to try to assert themselves a legal proceeding to assert themselves as political asylees, as refugees, that's the American way, Lou.
DOBBS: Fine. But the reality is, Congressman John Carter from Texas.
ROMERO: Sure.
DOBBS: Concerned about what he was hearing about Hutto said, "I was concerned about news reports of treatment at the facility." We are among those that reported on it. He went there, he said he, "believes that the dedicated employees of the facilities are providing a humane and safe alternative to catch and release." He thought the facility was just fine.
ROMERO: He's wrong. And a judge. Luckily in America ...
DOBBS: As you say, a court will adjudicate.
ROMERO: A court will adjudicate. You present evidence, they get to rebut it. A neutral judge gets to adjudicate.
DOBBS: That is the American way.
ROMERO: That is the American way. And that's why we're in court fighting for those issues.
DOBBS: It's one of the reasons, I think. But we're going to talk about some of the other reasons. For example, taking on Hazelton, Pennsylvania.
ROMERO: That's right.
DOBBS: Taking on ... ROMERO: Monday we will be in court, you should join me in court in Hazelton, Pennsylvania.
DOBBS: Well, I won't be joining you. But I assure you that our correspondents will.
ROMERO: We welcome it.
DOBBS: As a matter of fact, they were there today for the pretrial.
ROMERO: We had a briefing this morning this morning with some of your folks.
DOBBS: Yeah. You filed lawsuits against communities such as Hazelton, the Hazelton case going to court, as you said. Those, all those lawsuits with communities that are trying to deal with illegal immigration. What I don't understand ...
ROMERO: Right.
DOBBS: Is why if you're going to sue the federal government over the facilities, say at Hutto ...
ROMERO: Right.
DOBBS: Why aren't you suing the federal government over failure to enforce U.S. immigration law?
Why aren't you suing the government for its failure to take responsibility for maintaining for states maintaining social and medical and incarceration ...
ROMERO: Detention centers - you'll see.
DOBBS: Why don't you sue them for that.
ROMERO: You'll see. San Diego, we'll be suing on that detention center.
DOBBS: So you're going to be suing the federal government for failing to secure the borders and for not reimbursing states?
ROMERO: The poor conditions in detention centers are what we're going to take on.
DOBBS: Oh, no, no.
ROMERO: Let's go back to Hazelton.
DOBBS: Let's go back to this. When are you going to take on the American issue, which is -- it says American on your ...
ROMERO: Right. Absolutely, Americans who defend your rights and everyone rights.
DOBBS: So why don't you defend the rights of Americans very specifically and say - force the federal government to pay for the state and local expenditures to incarcerate illegal aliens to provide medical services and social services? Can I entice you to do that?
ROMERO: I can do what I can. But what I can tell you is sometimes you need clients. It's much harder than just bringing a lawsuit.
DOBBS: If you want a client, you got it.
ROMERO: You'll be my client? You bet. I did Rush Limbaugh. I can do you.
DOBBS: I don't know -- when you say "do."
ROMERO: I represented Rush Limbaugh in his medical privacy case when they went after him.
DOBBS: This is a little ...
ROMERO: Let's go back to Hazelton.
DOBBS: We have to go off the air. Because we're out of time.
ROMERO: Oh, then we'll have to come back next week and talk about Hazelton. It's much too important.
DOBBS: Are you going to book the show too? The ACLU has got a lot of power.
ROMERO: I have a lot of time.
DOBBS: OK. Good.
ROMERO: My pleasure.
DOBBS: We're going to prevail on some of that time, maybe next week. But I want you suing the federal government. And I'll be your client. Go get them. Thank you, Anthony Romero, ACLU, executive director.
ROMERO: My pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Up next, three of the country's leading political analysts here to discuss what has been a terrible week for President Bush. And the weekend isn't going so hot either. A top White House aide convicted of perjury. Democrats set a deadline to withdraw our troops from Iraq.
We'll be discussing all of that and much more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now our roundtable of political analysts. Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf joining us here in New York, as is Errol Louis, columnist, "New York Daily News," member of the editorial board and from Washington, DC, nationally syndicated columnist, political analyst Mona Charen.
Good to have you all here.
MONA CHAREN, POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you.
DOBBS: Well, it looks like Nancy Pelosi did what just a few days into this week saying she couldn't, moving forward with a solution at least in the Democratic eyes on Capitol Hill to withdraw from Iraq.
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: There's the big caveat at the end of it. Maybe, possibly, not entirely, but it could very well be. Americans want some decisive action. There's a theory in political campaigns called bite sized achievements. You don't have to do anything, you've just got to say it. Now Americans want to see something happen.
DOBBS: Do you agree?
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Absolutely. People want to see something happen that puts them in a difficult position. If they want to get in and try to micromanage this war, I think some of the popularity that they're chasing in the polls will started to evaporate pretty quickly.
So they're kind of caught in between, and they're trying to tease this out just as long as they can before it's time to really say, we demand that the troops come out. We are going to put serious roadblocks in the way of this surge.
DOBBS: And you think that is the Democratic strategy in the House?
LOUIS: Well, I think they are chasing public opinion. Look, Petraeus is saying we don't know how long this surge is going to last or how many troops we are going to need.
DOBBS: He is also saying we may need more.
LOUIS: Exactly right. And Democrats, if they're really unhappy about that, they are going to have to draw a line in the sand at some point.
DOBBS: Mona?
CHAREN: I think it works into the hands of Republicans, frankly, because by putting some sort of demand out there with the imprimatur of the House speaker, it will force every be Democratic candidate running for president to declare him or herself on this and what it amounts to is let us declare defeat and withdraw.
There's just no nicer way to put it. And so it will very clearly draw the lines. And I think it will not be helpful to the Democratic Party to be seen that way.
DOBBS: You've expressed the politics of it, folks. The reality is we've got men and women in Iraq in harm's way. And we still haven't had a policy debate, a national debate amongst our leadership, the Democrats, Republicans, on the appropriate policy and the consequences, the likely consequences of policy choices taken.
CHAREN: I disagree with that.
DOBBS: You may disagree with it, but the fact of the matter is, that this president has not defined success and the Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill has not defined what policy pursuit they want to follow to what consequence.
CHAREN: The president has defined success.
DOBBS: Give it to us.
CHAREN: He has said that success will be when the Iraqis can sustain themselves and have a regime that is not allied with our enemies the terrorists and that is self-governing and keeps a modicum of peace at home. That's it. He's not asking for the moon. It isn't Jeffersonian democracy but it is an achievable goal.
DOBBS: In other words, suit up, get in your National Guard uniform, your army uniform, your marine uniform, and spread democracy around the world. That's just worked brilliantly everywhere in the world.
LOUIS: It hasn't worked in Iraq for over 100 years.
DOBBS: It hasn't worked anywhere.
CHAREN: I disagree with that, too. Of course, it has worked in other places. But that's not the main point. The main point is to keep Iraq out of the hands of our enemies. And that's the situation we're in right now. Do we want to hand it over to Iran?
LOUIS: If you're asking for a policy debate, you have to acknowledge I think that both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue are equally guilty. The president ...
DOBBS: I said Democrats and Republicans alike.
LOUIS: The president ...
DOBBS: Mona's comments notwithstanding.
LOUIS: The president has said over and over again he will be guided by the actions of the commanders in the field.
DOBBS: That's a copout and you know it.
LOUIS: It's not just a copout. It's worse than that. We have a military that responds to civilian leadership and ...
CHAREN: It was a mistake. And he has corrected that. He's corrected that mistake.
DOBBS: Corrected what?
CHAREN: He corrected the mistake of relying too much on ... DOBBS: Mona, I think we've got to be honest about something. This president has acknowledged that he's been following a policy of gradual failure, he is now throwing all of the dice on the table hoping that he can win a miraculous, success by his own words, Mona, his own words.
CHAREN: The least the country can do in a situation where so much is at stake and where our own men and women are facing death is to at least back this up, this last throw of the dice.
DOBBS: I'm sorry, I've got to say this to you. The least this president can do, the least this Congress can do is lead and lead responsibly with the national interests in focus.
CHAREN: And what does that mean?
DOBBS: And we're going to have to take a break. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, among the other developments this week, Scooter Libby. Convicted. What do you think, Mona?
CHAREN: The man who was on trial was not the leaker. The man who was the leaker was not on trial. It was a travesty. The president should pardon Libby right away. It was the Democrats and the press attempting to criminalize policy differences. And march somebody off to jail because, as they keep putting it, the president lied us into war. That was not supposed to be what the trial was about.
SHEINKOPF: That was not the case. That is propaganda from the Republicans. That is not the case at all. What occurred here was potentially an act of treason.
CHAREN: What?
SHEINKOPF: Putting someone servicing this nation at risk.
CHAREN: Oh, please.
SHEINKOPF: That's what occurred here.
CHAREN: That was never even the subject of the trial.
SHEINKOPF: That's the problem.
CHAREN: No, there was never a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. That was not even the subject of the trial.
LOUIS: I think what you really have here is a situation where you've got an administration that overstepped its bounds, went tooth and nail after a distinguished public servant, which is appalling by itself.
CHAREN: Why, he went tooth and nail against them. LOUIS: It was an article in a newspaper explaining what he did and suggesting that his information wasn't being used properly.
CHAREN: First of all, it was a tissue (ph) of lies ...
DOBBS: Let Errol finish.
LOUIS: And whether you think this particular article was a tissue of lies is one thing. Trying to then to sort of spread propaganda, trying to discredit the man and his wife personally has nothing to do with policy.
CHAREN: Well, hang on. This is fantasy. There was no conspiracy on the part of the White House to out Mrs. Wilson because of her husband's essay. It was Washington gossip. Why did this particular Kerry supporting liberal Democrat get this post from this administration? Answer, from an Iraq War opponent, by the way ...
SHEINKOPF: This is fascinating. The Bush people can do no wrong and the rest of us have lost our minds, obviously.
CHAREN: Well, I'm giving a vigorous defense of my point of view.
DOBBS: Defend this one, if you will. Errol, U.S. attorneys being fired in the case in New Mexico. That U.S. attorney receiving phone calls from a congresswoman and a U.S. senator ostensibly putting some heat on the U.S. attorney to proceed with investigations and trial of Democratic suspects, if you will. And now, the U.S. attorney, the U.S. attorneys say that they felt the heat.
LOUIS: Absolutely. This is actually it, reminds me of the Wilson case to the extent that U.S. attorneys are important professionals, important justice professionals who try to do their job without fear of favor, without political pressure, without phone calls from sitting senators and representatives asking, hey, how is that investigation going? Is it going to be done before Election Day.
CHAREN: Those kinds of phone calls are probably improper.
SHEINKOPF: Probably improper? Probably?
CHAREN: Probably. We don't know what was in the phone calls. We don't know yet.
But - was that Errol or was that Hank?
SHEINKOPF: That was Hank.
CHAREN: Hank, were you saying then that it was improper for Bill Clinton to fire every single U.S. attorney when he became president, which is what he did?
And by the way, George Bush did not do that when he did that. He kept on a number of Democratic appointees.
SHEINKOPF: I'm not saying that it is improper. What I'm saying is the president used this prerogative at the time of his entry into office, he didn't wait until investigations were in midstream to try to politically influence outcomes.
DOBBS: I know Errol, like me, must be thrilled that the spirit of bipartisanship descended on the body politic and all is well.
Mona, thanks for being with us.
CHAREN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Errol, thank you very much. Hank, thank you.
And thank you for joining us here this weekend. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Enjoy your weekend. Good night from New York. THIS WEEK AT WAR begins now with John Roberts.
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