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Lou Dobbs This Week
Sharpton Upsets Mormons; Illegal Immigrants and Amnesty
Aired May 12, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
C. WHITE: This is the car that fell into the water.
JACKSON: And what's this.
C. WHITE: This is the van, and I draw the steering wheel, I drawed everything by myself.
JACKSON: Oh, and Carolyn wasn't coming out of the water without her favorite blanket.
C. WHITE: I'm going to dry that thing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Cheryl Jackson of WRTV. LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK starts right now.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN HOST: Tonight, the U.S. Senate is making another attempt to impose massive illegal alien amnesty on American citizens. Democratic senators, the Bush administration and corporate America all demanding amnesty for illegal aliens.
And Al Sharpton is being called a bigot for making highly charged remarks about religion, politics, and a Mormon presidential candidate. Mitt Romney. Sharpton made those comments in a debate with author Christopher Hitchens. Christopher Hitchens is our guest. All that and much more straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK, news, debate and opinion for Saturday, May 12. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody. Democrats and some Republicans have launched a major new effort to impose amnesty and open borders legislation on American citizens. Amnesty supporters in the Senate have reintroduced last year's failed comprehensive immigration bill because they can't come up with new legislation. Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The tone of the immigration debate is sharpening, as lawmakers kick into re-election mode. Listen to this YouTube clip of Senator Lindsey Graham. Graham was speaking before the National Council of La Raza. He clearly favors legalizing illegal aliens.
SEN. LINDSAY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: We are going to solve this problem. We're not going to run people down. We're not going to scapegoat people. We're going to tell the bigots to shut up, and we're going to get this right.
SYLVESTER: Getting it right to Graham means giving millions of illegal aliens legal status. But an amnesty bill is not acceptable to many other Republicans and Democrats.
Senator Arlen Specter is among a group of lawmakers trying to push through legislation that would pass both the House and Senate.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I believe that there is a universal agreement that the immigration situation in the United States today is an unmitigated disaster.
SYLVESTER: Specter and other senators have been meeting since February three times a week for two hours at a time, trying to reach a consensus. But they don't have one yet, and time is running out.
Without that consensus, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has dusted off last year's Senate bill, and that will be the starting point for debate.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: How can we have anything that's more fair than taking a bill that overwhelmingly passed the Senate on a bipartisan basis and using that as the instrument to which we're going to allow amendments? It will be an open amendment process.
SYLVESTER: Even though that bill passed the Senate last year, support for it has since withered, and that legislation went nowhere in the House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (on camera): Senators were scheduled to begin debate on the immigration bill as early as Monday, but that's now been pushed back until Wednesday. Several key senators have asked for more time to try to come up with new legislation by then. If a bipartisan compromise is not reached, GOP lawmakers are preparing to filibuster last year's Senate bill.
Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Members of Congress are also focusing on the war in Iraq. The House of Representatives voting to give the president only some of the war fund he's demanding. President Bush says he will veto that legislation. Andrea Koppel reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Defying the president's latest pledge to veto yet another bill, House Democrats sought to justify their latest legislative move to provide is the military with less than half the money it wants. REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) HOUSE SPEAKER: Forty three billion dollars over the next few months is a great deal of money. And so the Defense Department will have what it needs to conduct this war for well beyond two months.
KOPPEL: Before the rest of the money, an estimated $53 billion is released, Democrats would require another vote in late July after President Bush reports to congress on Iraq's progress. A separate bill to force U.S. troops to withdraw in six months failed to pass, but it succeeded in achieving another goal, winning support from anti- war Democrats like Congressman Jim McGovern who might have otherwise opposed more troop funding.
REP. JIM MCGOVERN, (D) MA: Look, I think it's important to keep the pressure on the White House, I think it's important to continue to let the president know that we want this war to come to an end and quite frankly, you know, the president needs to get the message of the last election. The American people want this war to come to an end.
KOPPEL: Meanwhile, the Republican leader denied reports some of his members met with President Bush this week because they're considering breaking ranks over the war.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER, (R) MINORITY LEADER: There are no fissures in our conference. We had a group of members that went to the White House to talk to the president about the war on terror, to talk about Iraq. It was a very healthy meeting.
KOPPEL (on camera): But even Speaker Pelosi concedes that it's not likely that the short-term fund bill would be included in any final measure that makes its way to the president's desk. Meanwhile, Senate Democrats are busy negotiating with Republicans and the White House over including Iraqi progress reports known as benchmarks in their bill. Andrea Koppel, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: President Bush appears to be willing to be flexible on some aspects of his policy in Iraq. The president saying he is prepared to sign a war funding bill that includes political and military benchmarks for the Iraqi government. Elaine Quijano reports from the White House. Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, President Bush did vow this week to veto any legislation that is a multi-stage war funding bill. The president saying that idea is simply not workable. Now, at the same time, the president did open the door to including benchmarks in war funding legislation. The president has embraced the idea of benchmarks, though, for sometime, so this is not necessarily a surprise, but it is significant because this is the first time the president has explicitly talked about benchmarks within the context of a war funding bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: One message I have heard from people from both parties and -- is that the idea of benchmarks makes sense. And I agree. It makes sense to have benchmarks as a part of our discussion on how to go forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: Now, after that will meeting at the Pentagon, the president went on to talk about the benchmarks or political goals that he would like to see the Iraqi government led by Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki to meet and the goals include passing a law to share oil revenue, also preparing for provincial elections in Iraq, as well as implementing de-Baathfication policy.
Here in the United States, though, Democratic leaders say any kind of benchmarks must have teeth. They say there should be consequences attached to any benchmarks or political goals. Now President Bush was asked about that this past week. He basically dodged the question. And when pressed on it, a senior administration official would only say that those are all very good questions, questions for Josh Bolten who is negotiating this, the chief of staff, negotiating this with congressional leaders on the Hill. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Elaine Quijano reporting from the White House.
One of President Bush's closest advisors, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales faced a new grilling on Capitol Hill. Democratic congressmen demanded to know more about his role in the firing of eight U.S. attorneys. But Republican congressmen rallied to support Gonzales. Kelli Arena reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee say they've heard enough about fired prosecutors, and pushed hard to change the subject.
REP. LAMAR SMITH (R), TEXAS: If there are no fish in this lake, we should reel in our lines of questions, dock our empty boat, and turn to more pressing issues.
ARENA: But Democrats say they won't stop asking questions until they get to the bottom of why those prosecutors were fired and whether any crime was committed.
REP. ROBERT WEXLER (D), FLORIDA: With all due respect, Mr. Attorney General, you won't tell the American people who put Mr. Iglesias on the list to be fired. It's a national secret, isn't it?
ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Congressman, if I knew the answer to that question, I would provide you the answer.
ARENA: There was even another call for Gonzales to resign.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: I hope you will reconsider your decision. And I hope you will resign, because the department is broken and I don't think you're the one to fix it.
ARENA: The Democrats' disdain for the attorney general was palpable and matched by the Republican disdain for the subject.
REP. DAN LUNGREN (R), CALIFORNIA: We're acting around this place like U.S. attorneys are product of the immaculate conception, and once they've been created they cannot be undone.
ARENA (on camera): There's little chance of getting Democrats to let go of this issue, especially because there are new allegations to deal with. Lawmakers are now investigating new charges that yet another U.S. attorney, a guy by the name of Todd Graves, was pushed out for political reasons. Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still to come, a guilty verdict in one of the most important espionage cases in this country in a generation. Also, Congress demands action to fix our broken food safety system.
And Al Sharpton accused of bigotry after making astonishing comments about religion and a presidential candidate. Christopher Hitchens, author of "God is Not Great," is our guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Bush administration's top education official faced tough questioning this week from members of Congress. They're looking at a department's lack of oversight of the nation's student loan program. Secretary of education Margaret Spellings admitted the college loan system is broken. She says federal student aid is crying out for reform.
Now, there are charges that some banks have made payments or given perks to college officials. The banks expected those officials to recommend them to student borrowers. The House passed a bill Wednesday to crack down on the abuses. The Senate is also considering similar legislation.
Another agency facing sharp criticism is the FDA. It's under fire for being what is called a slow response to the discovery of melamine contaminated food from communist China. These ingredients may have killed thousands of pets in the United States. And those toxins have also entered the human food chain. Congress is demanding answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's been two months since the poison pet food was discovered. The Chinese contaminants were fed to millions of chickens in February. Thousands of hogs were just investigated in the United States. And now this week, FDA officials revealed farmed fish were fed contaminated fish food.
Congress questioning government agencies why products from China are not screened more carefully.
REP. DAVID SCOTT (D), GEORGIA: Here we've got China, that you seem to think it has it under control now. But this isn't the first time. China is notorious in contaminated food products. PILGRIM: Even now, assurances that home food is safe were feeble.
REP. BOB ETHERIDGE (D), NORTH CAROLINA: Can either of you tell me with any degree of certainty that this product has not entered into the human food supply chain?
DR. DAVID ACHESON, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: Let me respond to that first.
ETHERIDGE: Yes or no?
ACHESON: Yes.
PILGRIM: But that answer is not valid.
SCOTT: Now, Mr. Acheson, those hogs and chickens are going to make it on to somebody's table.
PILGRIM: And the FDA still doesn't know how many fish are contaminated.
REP. RANDY NEUGEBAUER (R), TEXAS: We don't need to wait until animals start dying or, god forbid, people start dying or having health issues to determine, hey, we need to monitor that.
PILGRIM: A key question, should China take more responsibility for the safety of its products?
REP. CHARLES BOUSTANY (R), LOUISIANA: Given that the investigating is still ongoing, are the Chinese cooperating?
ACHESON: Very much so, yes.
PILGRIM: But the Chinese at first denied the melamine contaminations and only recently acknowledged they were the source of the problem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (on camera): FDA officials insist China is being cooperative in the melamine investigation, but when U.S. investigators got to China, the factories had been cleaned up, shut down, the machinery dismantled and the factor managers were taken away before U.S. officials could talk to them. So U.S. investigators will not be able to run independent tests instead, they'll have to accept the results of the Chinese investigation.
A victory for federal prosecutors this week in a spy case involving communist China. Former defense industry engineer Chi Mak was found guilty of conspiring to export U.S. defense technology to Beijing. Mak, a naturalized American citizen born in China, was also convicted of being an unregistered foreign agent. Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Naturalized American citizen Chi Mak could spend the rest of his natural life in a federal penitentiary after his conviction for sending critical U.S. military technology to the government of his communist Chinese homeland. After a two-year investigation, six-week trial, and nearly four days of deliberations, jurors convicted the 66-year-old Mak on five charges -- conspiracy to violate export control laws; two counts of attempting to export a defense article to the People's Republic of China; acting as an agent of a foreign government; and making false statements to the FBI.
GREGORY STAPLES, ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY: We won this conviction because of the professional work of the FBI, Naval Criminal Investigative Service, and the Department of Homeland Security did a fantastic job investigating this case. The evidence was there. We just had to put it on.
WIAN: Evidence included secret audio and recordings inside Mak's drab 700 square foot house, where he and his wife copied computer disks containing restricted military technology. Mak showed no emotion when the verdict was read, but later had to be consoled by defense attorneys. They say Mak was only sending documents to friends and relatives in China for commercial and academic use.
RON KAYE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He has done -- committed his life to advancing engineering and to advancing the defense of the United States of America. And we believe that this was -- that this -- that to hold this man accountable for insecurities and fear of the government is a travesty.
WIAN: Military officials say the only travesty is the advantage Mak gave the communist Chinese. Some of the documents were part of the U.S. Navy's effort to design Stealth submarines and warships.
(on camera): Mak face a maximum of 45 years in prison. He is scheduled to be sentenced in September. Four of his relatives charged as accomplices in the case are set to go on trial next month. Casey Wian, CNN, Santa Ana, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, it looks like any help wanted ad for a local newspaper, the heading, "Newspaper reporter wanted." But take a look at the first sentence. "We seek a newspaper journalist based in India to report on the city government and political scene of Pasadena, California, USA."
That's right. "Pasadena Now," an online newspaper is looking for a reporter in India to cover Pasadena politics. Well, we spoke to publisher James McPherson (ph). And Mr. McPherson says he has no choice but to go outside our borders to hire journalists. He is on a tight budget and says he can't find qualified American journalists and couldn't hire any one of them to work for $1,000 a month."
McPherson received dozens of applications from India and has hired two reporters. And they will use Internet resources and McPherson will edit their stories to give them a local flavor.
Coming up, religious leaders disregarding separation of church and state. They're lobbying heavily for amnesty for illegal aliens. We'll have the details. Also, Al Sharpton who called for the firing of radio host Don Imus for offensive remarks is an excused making some offensive remarks of his own. We'll have a report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Reverend Al Sharpton, the man who so vocally and vigorously called for the firing of radio host Don Imus for making insensitive comments, now he is being called a bigot for his own insensitive comments. Christine Romans reports tonight, Sharpton's comments, his subsequent apology and whether religion is introduced into politics is a big topic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Reverend Al Sharpton debating author Christopher Hitchens earlier this week. Sharpton said true believers in God won't elect the Mormon candidate, a direct reference to Republican candidate Mitt Romney.
REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: As for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway, so, don't worry about that, that's a temporary, that's a temporary situation.
ROMANS: Romney called it a quote, "extraordinarily bigoted kind of statement."
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think Reverend Sharpton's comment was terribly misguided.
ROMANS: Sharpton responded that the attack was on nonbelievers, like Hitchens, who just wrote a book called "God is Not Great." Quote, "In no way did I attack Mormons or the Mormon church when I responded that other believers not atheists would vote against Mr. Romney for purely political purposes."
And then Sharpton, who made the comments, blamed the victim, in this case, presidential candidate Romney, saying, quote, "It is a blatant effort to fabricate a controversy to help their lagging campaign."
What it is is the latest example of the politics of God on the campaign trail.
ROBERT BOSTON, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: There is too much emphasis and religion in our political campaigns. You hear the TV preachers, and what you might call the religious right constantly stressing this issue. And as a result, it gets more play than it probably deserves to get.
ROMANS: This spring, Conservative evangelical leader James Dobson suggested author (sic) and former Senator Fred Thompson is not Christian enough to ever be president. Complementing instead Newt Gingrich, an admitted adulterer who has been married three times.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ROMANS (on camera): In this case, Sharpton ultimately issued an apology of sorts on his radio show saying, quote, "If any member of the Mormon Church was inadvertently harmed or bothered or in any way aggrieved because of the distortion of my words or the lack of clarity of my words, then they have my sincere apology." Kitty?
PILGRIM: Can Mr. Romney take this moment and turn it to political advantage, do you think, or is there a position he might take on this to sort of skirt this entire issue of religion? It's become such an issue in his campaign.
ROMANS: It really has. And some would say he needs to embrace sort of the constitutional separation of church and state to say look, this is my JFK moment. I am not going to be married to my religion. My religion is not going to be the thing that defines me when I am in office. It's going to be my status as an American.
But at the same time, he's also got to appeal to the Christians, that part of the Republican Party that want to hear that he is as James Dobson said about Fred Thompson, quote unquote, "Christian enough." So it's a very fine line that he has to walk here. It will be interesting to see how religion plays out in this political arena.
PILGRIM: As you point out, this debate hasn't really dominated a campaign season for quite many decades. Thanks very much, Christine Romans.
And coming up, Christopher Hitchens who is the author of a new book "God is Not Great," he will be here to discuss the latest intrusion of religion into politics as he puts it.
Also, religious leaders launch a national coalition to defy our immigration laws and give sanctuary to illegal aliens.
We'll also have the results of a new opinion poll on the issues that matter most to Americans.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in B control bringing you up to date on some of the stories we're following for you.
First of all, a wildfire that flared a week ago in South Georgia is spreading. It's now burning thousands of acres both there and of course, throughout parts of northern Florida. Lots of fires throughout Florida, by the way.
Meanwhile, on California's Catalina Island, more than 700 firefighters have been battling a brush fire that forced evacuation of scores of residents and tourists there.
Also, the Navy's Blue Angels roared into the skies above Goldsboro, North Carolina. They performed in an air show at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base. It is their first show since a crash last month in the South Carolina killed a pilot, a Navy commander says flying is like therapy for the Blue Angels and one of the best ways to cope with tragedy is to do just that.
An intense search in Iraq's so called Triangle of Death is going on as we speak. U.S. troops are turning parts of that will area upside down. They are looking for three missing comrades that vanished early this morning after attackers killed five other members of their team. Seven U.S. soldiers and an Iraqi army interpreter made up that team.
I'm Rick Sanchez. If any news breaks, I'll break in right away. In the meantime, let's go over to Lou Dobbs - LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK, of course. It begins right now.
PILGRIM: Many religious leaders in this country are ignoring the separation of church and state and our laws by interfering in the national debate over illegal alien amnesty. Evangelical and Catholic leaders this week stepped up their efforts announcing a new coast-to- coast sanctuary movement.
Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles where churches are defy defying federal immigration laws providing sanctuary to illegal aliens.
Bill Tucker reports on a unique gathering of faiths and the sanctuary movement in New York City. We begin with Casey Wian in Los Angeles.
Casey?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, they're breaking the law and they admit it. Religious leaders say they're offering sanctuary to illegal aliens to promote the cause of amnesty.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (voice over): First, there was Elvira Arellano, the fugitive illegal alien who has claimed sanctuary in a Chicago store front church for nine months. Now, religious groups from coast to coast are offering protection for illegal aliens who have been ordered deported by federal immigration authorities.
PASTOR CESASR ARROYO, ANGELICA LUTHERAN CHURCH: We want to respect the law. That is our first goal. But when the law takes other way, and the justice takes other way, we have the need to stand up.
WIAN: Arroyo's North Hollywood church is where this Guatemalan illegal alien, who gave the name Juan Sanctuario, will be defying his order of deportation.
JUAN SANCTUARIO, ILLEGAL ALIEN (through translator): I am here because the law is not good. They are separating many families.
WIAN: Organizers claim hundreds of Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Muslim religious leaders are participating in the so-called New Sanctuary Movement.
ALEXIA SALVATIERRA, NEW SANCTUARY MOVEMENT: And we can pray to the God of justice that we will find a comprehensive solution for the common good of us all. WIAN: They say it's modeled after a similar effort a quarter century ago, when thousands of Central American refugees arrived in the United States, fleeing war and death squads.
But so far, only a handful of illegal aliens have accepted the sanctuary offer, perhaps fearing that flaunting their presence in front of television cameras might not be the most prudent path to amnesty.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement released a statement, saying, "Those who willfully violate U.S. immigration laws face the consequences of their actions. ICE prioritizes enforcement efforts to best protect national security and promote the public safety of communities throughout the country. We carry out enforcement actions at appropriate times and places."
The churches offering protection admit they're daring ICE to enter their so-called sanctuaries and apprehend deportable illegal aliens. So far, ICE has refused.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (on camera): But immigration officials point out that U.S. law does not recognize the concept of sanctuary in a church so there is nothing other than politics preventing ICE agents from entering a church and apprehending aliens, Kitty.
PILGRIM: So very much, Casey Wian. And religious groups in New York City are also taking part in the sanctuary movement. Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The news conference in New York began with a prayer service.
REV. DONNA SCHAPER, JUDSON MEMORIAL CHURCH: Bless what we do. Let what is hidden come into the light. Let what is cold by fear be warmed by love.
TUCKER: Clergy from various faiths were then called to sign the pledge of the new sanctuary movement, a pledge made in the face of increased immigration enforcement, an action they called a humanitarian crisis of national proportion.
RABBI MICHAEL FEINBERG, GREATER NEW YORK LABOR-RELIGION COALITION: For us, sanctuary is an act of radical hospitality.
SAYKH T.A. BASHIR, THE HOUSE OF PEACE: Are these people criminals? No, they are not. What did these people do while they're here? They're working people.
TUCKER: The word "illegal" was carefully avoided, even though nothing about the new sanctuary movement would be necessary if it were a movement for and about legal immigrants.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one is illegal in the eyes of God, and this is a religious movement.
TUCKER: In the eyes of the state, it's another matter entirely. Two families were offered sanctuary, families who are not yet deportable because their cases are under legal appeal. Joe and his wife entered the country illegally, using fake passports.
Gene was a legal permanent resident who served 11 years in prison on drug charges.
REV. GIL MARTINEZ, ST. PAUL THE APOSTLE: The law of God that says that there is no borders, that there are no borders, is the one that we're required to follow.
TUCKER: And so say the leaders of the new sanctuary movement, are positioning themselves, not only in opposition to immigration law, but also, the sovereignty of the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (on camera): And while the leaders spoke of the fear provoked by current immigration law, which would have people deported, they were very quick to invoke fear in their part asking what would happen to the children that deported families would be forced to leave behind?
Kitty, we need to make this clear, absolutely clear. There is no law that would force anyone who is being deported to leave their child behind. That would simply be a decision that the parents would make.
PILGRIM: So these facts are being twisted for purposes.
TUCKER: Yes, they're invoking that fear about thousands of children being left behind and separated from families and they don't have to be. We let them leave the country with their parents.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
Well, for more on religious leaders ignoring the separation of church and state, I am joined by Robert Boston. He's the assistant director of communications for Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And thanks very much for being with us, sir.
BOSTON: My pleasure.
PILGRIM: How do you feel about religious leaders pushing a sanctuary movement?
BOSTON: Well, it's very controversial. This is something that was tried in the mid '80s it, goes back to then. There were court cases around it then.
Every religious leader has to decide for himself or herself how far down this road they want to go. They know it's civil disobedience, they know that it's illegal. If they want to protest and risk arrest, they do have that right, but I don't think if you look at the Supreme Court rulings or the lower court rulings in this area that the religious freedom argument that some are making is going to be very successful in the courts.
PILGRIM: So you believe that will legally, they're on very shaky ground.
BOSTON: Legally they are. But I do think they should point out that obviously, their right to speak out and address these issues is fully protected by our First Amendment. They can make whatever argument they like when arguing on immigration or any other public policy issue that's out there.
PILGRIM: Uh-huh. You know, it's really become quite extreme in language. I'd like to point out a quote that we have. A group of amnesty advocates "Christians for Comprehensive Immigration Reform" held a press conference. And some of the language was pretty extreme. They say the spiritual health of our country depends on the way immigration reform is handled.
Let's listen to one of those comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. JIM WALLIS, CHRISTIANS FOR COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM: If given the choice on this issue, between Jesus and Lou Dobbs, I choose my Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now this show has made no secret of its position on this issue but don't you think this kind of rhetoric is counterproductive?
BOSTON: What I think it does is it actually harms the people who make it because this is a secular country with a secular Constitution. We're not a religious state. When you make an argument on any public policy issue and you invoke the Bible or some other religious book or the pope, that's really only persuasive to people who agree with you on religion.
If you want to argue for immigration reform or some changes in the policy, I think it's better to make an argument that everybody can grasp, not just certain religious believers.
PILGRIM: Does this go against separation of church and state.
BOSTON: I really don't think it does. I think the right of religious organizations to speak out on these issues is fully protected. I think that right is secure. I think where we get into issues of separation of church and state, if the government were to be invoking religion or backing religion in any of the laws in this country. We have to make sure that our laws remain secular because our Constitution does mandate that we are a secular republic.
PILGRIM: I have to say it's astonishing how much religion has come into the national discussion not only the Christian sort sects discussing what and what is not legitimate and then we have the Christian, Muslim debate. It's really broad reaching in our society these days. We had author Christopher Hitchens on, and he was reacting to something that Reverend Al Sharpton said about presidential candidate Mitt Romney has even come into the campaigns already. Let's listen to what was said about Mr. Romney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: And as for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway. So don't worry about that. That's a temporary -- that's a temporary situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: How do you react to this? I mean, and does it have any place in a presidential discussion?
BOSTON: Well, it's not helpful. I would like to see people talking less about where candidates worship and how they relate to God and more about the issues that really matter to the American people. But it's interesting to hear Mitt Romney complain that he was the victim of bigotry, Mitt Romney has been telling people in his stump speeches that a person of faith that wants to be president, of course we must have a person of faith as president.
Our Constitution contains Article VI which says there will be no religious qualification for public office. There's no reason why a nonreligious person couldn't perform the office of president. There's no religious duties to being president of the United States.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Robert Boston.
BOSTON: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Thanks for helping us to sort through this very complicated issue. Thank you, sir.
BOSTON: My pleasure.
PILGRIM: Coming up, we'll hear from outspoken author Christopher Hitchens about those controversial remarks by Al Sharpton and we will also have a report on what matters most to American voters. We'll talk with our political panel about that and other issues. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Civil rights activist Al Sharpton set off a fire storm of controversy this week. Sharpton was debating Christopher Hitchens, the best selling author of the book "God is Not Great," and Sharpton said, "As for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway. So don't worry about that." That's a direct quote from Mr. Sharpton.
Now, that remark prompted presidential candidate Mitt Romney to say the comment was bigoted. Lou asked Christopher Hitchens for his reaction to Sharpton's remarks.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS, AUTHOR, "GOD IS NOT GREAT": Well, I -- as you can see, he's a bit of a crowd pleaser. In fact, that's one of the best-known things about him. And he was trying to be funny.
But he was reacting to a point that I made seriously, which was, it surprises me that Governor Romney is not asked more often, nor at all, about the fact that his church was officially racist until at least 1965. It only changed its so-called revelation ...
DOBBS: Right.
HITCHENS: ... that black people were of a different species, and an inferior one, when the Civil Rights Act was about to pass. And they would have been in the same position at the Mormons of Utah were when they wanted to practice polygamy before being outside the law.
DOBBS: And then Reverend Sharpton, coming back to say, as the one Mormon. "Those who really believe in God will defeat him."
HITCHENS: Yes.
DOBBS: Here's what he said in his statement, when this was brought to his attention today: "In a review of the transcript of the debate at the New York Public Library with author Christopher Hitchens, clearly indicates it was Hitchens that attacked the Mormons."
He then said, in response, Mitt Romney said this, "I can only, hearing that statement, wonder whether there's not bigotry that still remains in America." An extraordinary thing for someone to say. "Extraordinarily bigoted kind of statement. I find it really quite extraordinary."
A lot of "extraordinaries."
HITCHENS: There's nothing ordinary for this. And, for Governor Romney.
Well, I must say I think it's bizarre that he finds the question surprising. And there is the fact of the matter. If you remember, Senator Byrd used to have to answer a lot of questions about the fact he used to be a Ku Klux Klansman, as you know.
The Romney family is not just -- members of the Mormon Church and senior people in it. For a long time, that church was officially racist. And there were some doubts as to the sincerity of its repudiation.
DOBBS: Well, how would you -- let me ask you this. Mitt Romney ...
HITCHENS: If there's any bigotry, then, well, the question remains with the governor.
DOBBS: Is there -- are you suggesting that there are sufficient bigotry to go around? Did you -- that is, from your perspective, that Mormon Church, bigotry against women; and the Catholic Church, since they cannot hold the priesthood; bigotry on the part of Al Sharpton, because of his statement about true believers ...
HITCHENS: He couldn't be a member of the Society of Jesus unless you could prove you hadn't got a Jewish great-great grandfather. You had to go that far back. There are all kind of -- for me, religion and bigotry are more or less the same thing.
DOBBS: And do you believe ...
HITCHENS: And there's never more so when they're attacking another faith. They really -- when you see people of faith, as in this case, the so-called Reverend Sharpton, and an elder member of the Mormon Church. I don't know if he's actually an elder. A senior member for sure. You see how the Christians love each other, don't you?
DOBBS: When you think about the misstatement that Al Sharpton made, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
This is a man who just a short time ago was righteously and indignantly calling, because of the misstatement by Don Imus, the radio talk show host, demanding his ouster. And here he is, and making a statement in which he's accused of bigotry.
I mean, have we gotten overly righteous in this country?
HITCHENS: Well, I certainly think the row about Imus was largely preposterous. But it can't be denied that what he said was hateful and intended to wound. And it was not a small criticism, unbelievably -- not a small criticism at all. Unbelievably unfunny. So, you know ...
DOBBS: And I didn't -- nothing struck you as funny about what Al Sharpton said?
HITCHENS: Well, he was trying to be funny. But this is a question of what's the most he can be saying in this case, Sharpton, I mean? He's saying, which a lot of Christians say, Mormons are not really Christians.
DOBBS: Right.
To hear a discussion, this early, in a presidential debate, about religion, one or the other, casting aspersions, or having aspersions cast against their faith when there are so many important issues. It's truly remarkable.
And it looks like we're just getting warmed up during this presidential season, where religion is going to play a role, depending on your perspective. From mine, a very unfortunate role. I think perhaps, from yours, how would your characterize ...
HITCHENS: My subtitle is that "Religion Poisons Things." And I think this is a very good case for saying so.
DOBBS: And before that subtitle comes the title of Christopher Hitchens' best-selling new book, "God is Not Great". Good to have you here. HITCHENS: Very nice to of you to have me back.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Coming up, voters are divided on many of the issues they face in America. We'll have a special report on what issues really matter to Americans. Three of the America's leading political minds join us to discuss that and much more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll on issues that matter most to Americans. Here they are. Fifty one percent believe the war in Iraq is extremely important to their upcoming vote in the presidential election. Terrorism, education, health care, gasoline prices. The next most important issues for voters. Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What matters in politics is not just how many people are on each side of an issue, but how much they care about it.
SEN. HARRY REID, (D) NV: Other than Iraq, and health care, there's no issue on the minds of the American people today other than maybe gas prices, than immigration.
SCHNEIDER: Take the Iraq issue. Nearly two-thirds of Americans oppose the war. But do they care about the issue as much as war supporters? Fifty eight percent of those who oppose the war say the issue will be extremely important to their vote. Only 38 percent of war supporters feel that way.
War critics don't just have the numbers, they also have the intensity. Americans are divided over abortion. Just like some politicians.
RUDY GIULIANI, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In my case, I hate abortion. I would respect a woman's right to make a different choice.
SCHNEIDER: But people describe themselves as pro-life are twice as likely to say the issue will be extremely important to them than people who call themselves pro-choice. Abortion opponents have intensity on their side.
A solid majority of Americans favors allowing illegal aliens who have been living in the United States for a number of years to stay and an apply for citizenship if they have a job and pay back taxes. Critics call that amnesty.
REP. LAMAR SMITH, (R) TX: It encourages even more illegal immigration, so it's not a part of the solution. It's part of the problem.
SCHNEIDER: Amnesty critics have intensity on their side. They are much more likely to say the issue will be extremely important to their vote than people who favor amnesty.
(on camera): That's why politicians pay so much attention to letters and e-mails and people who show up at town halls. They want to know, who really cares about an issue? Intensity matters, not just numbers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Bill Schneider reporting.
Joining me now are three of the country's best political analysts. From New York, Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf, Errol Louis, columnist for the "New York Daily News" and from Washington, Diana West, columnist for the "Washington Times." Thank you all for being here.
We just saw Bill Schneider's report on the most important issues for voters. How will this play out with the candidates?
Hank, let's start with you. Will this really dominate the discussion going forward?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Not necessarily. Let's see, the war is at 51 percent. That's absolutely not in the 70s 80s, something that people are burning about. Terrorism right up there, the cost of gas. The war is important. It's a polarizing issue. It will help Democrats. Democrats will use it when they can. Republicans will hide.
PILGRIM: You believe it may be more kitchen table issues like the cost of gas, things like that, Errol?
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Absolutely. You've got issues around sending your kids to college, there is a mortgage meltdown we've reported on this show quite a bit where people are worried about staying in their homes. That's going to really I think be the issue that predominates when it comes to people making up their minds. You also have to keep in mind that the first primary, this election could essentially be decided in about nine months from now because we have this front-loaded primary system where big states like New Jersey, California, New York are going to be casting votes in February.
It's a very short time period. It's a little too early to panic but there is going to be some panic pretty soon.
PILGRIM: But it is crunch time. And this accelerates the debate, doesn't it, Diana.
DIANA WEST, "WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, it does. I would disagree with Hank and Errol on the war's important to the upcoming election and certainly things like gasoline prices are driven by events in the Middle East. I think that I'm not sure it will rebound well for Democrats in the end, especially as Americans realize that, for example, al Qaeda's number two Zawahiri made his most recent statement thrilled to bits at the Democratic shenanigans over funding the war.
So I'm not sure that we have everything in place and can just say this is a pat election on tabletop issues.
PILGRIM: But - OK, go ahead, Errol.
LOUIS: When it comes to the war though, keep in mind, Diana, that a majority of the Iraqi parliament has voted for a timetable for withdrawal by American troops, same as the U.S. Congress.
WEST: I would agree. I know that's happening, but what I'm waiting for is the candidate who has the courage to notice that solving Sunni/Shiite problems in Iraq is not what is important to American national security. At some point, we're going to have to recognize that Iran and Syria are actually already at war with us and take measures accordingly, and also recognize the issue of Islamization which is another issue that impinges on Europe and our relations with the rest of the world that's going through all this.
So there are a lot of things to come out still that we have not begun to talk about.
SHEINKOPF: I just don't see Americans sitting at their coffee tables, dinner tables talking and saying, oh, by the way, let's talk about the Sunni/Shia problem.
PILGRIM: Well - OK, go ahead.
WEST: I was going to say, that is where our energies as far as our strategic and military are going. And I think it's a big mistake. That really has nothing to do with saving American lives or saving American national security or, I would add, our friends in the region and beyond. But that's where our strategy is.
PILGRIM: Where this really comes home is when you're talking about funding the war. I think that's when every American can connect to it. This has been a debate that has consumed Capitol Hill this week.
The White House, there's a bill funding the war only until July. The White House is threatening to veto. Here's what Speaker Nancy Pelosi had to say about that. Let's listen to that for a second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: This is a bill he should like. It has his benchmarks, it asks for a progress report. He must have some confidence in what he is doing. And then leave it up to the Congress to make a judgment in July. What could be fairer than that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: So every family discussion they say is really basically rooted in the money discussion. Is this the national family discussion? And we're rooting the Iraq debate in the money discussion?
SHEINKOPF: Well, the facts are that politicians tend to follow public opinion because they like being reelected. And the speaker of the House, the leader of the Democrats who captured the House back last fall, largely on the strength of negatives against President Bush is doing what public opinion mandates, she is doing the rational thing.
LOUIS: Individually they're all advocating for the best political interests and the interests of their district as they see it and right now, a majority of districts, a majority of Americans, a majority of Congress says that it's time to cut this short any way they can. And money happens to be the hook that Congress has to get involved.
PILGRIM: Diana?
WEST: Well, I would add that money may be the hook to get Congress involved, but strategically thinking and thinking about America's place in the world, telegraphing your departure date is not good strategy and it only tells your enemies to hang on. Again, I think Americans will get the picture that Democrats are not interested in staying on the offensive in the war on terror.
PILGRIM: All right. Let's just take a quick break and we'll get back to some other issues when we return and we'll be right back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: We're back with our panel of political analysts. Hank Sheinkopf, Errol Louis and Diana West and we're right in the middle of discussing Iraq.
Now, President Bush this week still talking about success in Iraq. Let's listen to what the president said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I don't want it to be said 50 years from now what happened to America in 2007? How come they forgot the lessons of September the 11th? How come they couldn't see the impending dangers facing a generation of Americans? I want you to know I see the impending dangers. I understand the consequences of this historic moment and we will succeed in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: He's still talking about success in Iraq, he's really pinned his entire presidency on this, however, he has very little to lose politically by taking such a strong stance now as opposed to the presidential candidates who have to position themselves. Hank, what do you think?
SHEINKOPF: It's an irresponsible position to take for a couple reasons. If there is a fault in running war which has what caused the problem to a large extent, it is his fault and the fault of those who work for him.
There is no one responsible for this but him. He's trying to position himself as Harry Truman. Wrong party, wrong idea, wrong time, and it's not believable.
LOUIS: And for the 150 to 200,000 American families that are invested there, who are on the ground, they have sons, they have daughters over there talking about what might happen 50 years from now is of small comfort really.
I mean, the question right now is, the first part of his statement was true. There is a danger. There is a growing danger. There's a global problem, there is a global strategic decision that the United States has to make. The question is whether or not getting bogged down in this civil religious war in Iraq is the right way to address it. And I think most people believe that that's just not the case.
PILGRIM: But as leader of the country, he's saying this is what I believe should be the course of the country. It's within his role to do that. Agree or disagree? Diana?
WEST: I find him completely sincere. I think he truly believes this.
I think that the great problem, and this would go across the Democrats and Republican candidates and leaders alike, there is no willingness to face up to the fact that so many of our policies being advocated rely on the deeds and beliefs of others over which we have no control.
For example, our whole policy is based on convincing the Iraqi population, in the words of General Petraeus, this week that we have the moral high ground or that democracy western style is the perfect import for these Islamic cultures.
This is the point that no politician right, left, center, Democrat, Republican has come to in their thinking. And that is why we're in this problem.
But getting back to President Bush, he's sincere, he's staking his presidency on this. But it's a great tragedy because I feel like lessons have not been learned.
PILGRIM: All right. Any ...
SHEINKOPF: Last great power that tried to reorganize the Middle East in significant fashion was the British. What they did was not create democracies but fascist dictatorships throughout the region. And that tells the story much more clearly.
LOUIS: Absolutely. You overturn over any of the rocks that we've based our policy in the Mid East on, the Saudi royal family, the emirs all over the Gulf, a guy named Saddam Hussein who was a U.S. ally for many years and got all kinds of funding from us and underneath it was this festering problem that we still have not come to terms with.
PILGRIM: We can't solve it here. Thanks for helping us talk about it today in very stark terms, I have to say. Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf, Diana West, thank you.
And thank you for joining us. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Enjoy your weekend. Good night from New York. THIS WEEK AT WAR starts right now with Tom Foreman.
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