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Lou Dobbs This Week
Libby Commutation; Previous Pardons; GOP Rebellion
Aired July 07, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: We couldn't let you go without telling you what one of the new wonders of the world is--Petra, in Jordan, that famous carved city. According to the Associated Press, it is now one of the new wonders of the world. Taj Mahal, barely, also made the list.
We'll keep checking on it for you. Here's Lou Dobbs.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN NEWS HOST: Tonight, the GOP rebellion over President Bush's conduct of the war in Iraq grows. One of the Republican Party's most senior senators call for a change in strategy.
And, rising anger over President Bush's decision to commute the prison sentence over Scooter Libby. It turns out Libby may also avoid serving probation.
All that and much more straight ahead tonight.
PILGRIM: Good evening everybody.
President Bush tonight faces a growing revolt in his own part over his conduct of the war in Iraq. Senator Pete Domenici is the latest of three top senators to break ranks with President Bush in less than two weeks.
Senator Domenici says it's time for the president to shift our trrops away from combat operations. Andrea Koppel reports from Capital Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And then there were three.
SEN PETE DOMENICI, (R) NEW MEXICO: We need a new strategy for Iraq that forces the Iraqi government to do more, or else.
KOPPEL: New Mexico Senator Pete Domenici, a veteran Republican lawmaker and now the third senior Republican senator in recent weeks to publicly break with President Bush over Iraq, joining Indiana's Richard Lugar and Ohio's George Voinavich.
DOMENICI: I am unwilling to continue our current strategy when the Iraqi government fails to advance the interests of the Iraqi people, or even make modest progress towards self-sufficiency.
KOPPEL: Still, Domenici said he did not support an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, or cut in funding for U.S. troops. Instead, the New Mexico lawmaker threw his support behind the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, which calls for U.S. combat troops to leave Iraq by March, 2008.
Why now? Domenici told reporters a recent phone call with a father who lost a child in Iraq convinced him the time had come for him to speak out.
DOMENICI: One father said yes you were right, senator. My son wanted to be in that war, he wanted to fight. But now I am speaking for me, his father, said he, I am asking you if you couldn't do a little extra, a little more, to see if you can't get the troops back.
KOPPEL: But the six-term Republican, who was last elected with 65 percent of the vote, is also up for re-election in 2008 in what is considered a battleground state.
And he is not alone. Over 20 Republican senators are also up in 2008, a soft spot Democrats plan to use to their advantage next week when they resume their focus on Iraq, with votes scheduled on a number of amendments which will force Republicans to choose sides--to join Democrats in opposing the war, or to stand alongside an increasingly unpopular president.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: As congressional opposition to the war grows, top U.S. generals in Iraq are appealing for more time to complete their mission.
Major general Rick Lynch said it would be "a mess if U.S. troops withdrew immediately." His comments follow similar remarks by another U.S. commander in Iraq, Major General Benjamin Micksum.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon. Jamie?
MCINTYRE: Kitty, this has been a week in which we have seen U.S. commanders digging in their heels to urge more patience for the so- called surge.
On Friday, Major General Rick Lynch, who was in command of the southern belt just below Baghdad, told reporters in a Pentagon briefing that it would be, "a mess" if the U.S. were to withdraw extra forces just when they had given him the ability to do the things he says are the key to success, such as driving the insurgent away and keeping them away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJ. GEN. RICK LYNCH, U.S. ARMY: If those surge forces go away, that capability goes away. And Iraqi Security Forces aren't ready to do that. So now what you are going to find, if you did that, is you would find the enemy regaining ground, reestablishing sanctuaries, building more IEDs, carrying those IEDs into Baghdad, and the violence would escalate. It would be a mess.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Lynch's assessment follows a similar assessment followed by counterpart to the north, in Baghdad, Major General Major Nixon, who, in an interview with CNN with Thursday, said a significant withdrawal would be, in his words, "a very, very bad idea."
Just another week the Pentagon is due to release its quarterly report on progress in Iraq, and it promises to be another mixed picture, with some modest success. But nowhere near the kind of progress that would allow for major troop reduction.
So, that is going to be used by both sides. Critics will say it's time for the U.S. to cut its losses. And the U.S. military will cite it as a reason to maintain the surge.
Kitty?
PILGRIM: Jamie, the ultimate assessment on the success of the surge will be in September. How might that be presented?
MCINTYRE: Well, it is unlikely to actually be the ultimate decision on the success of the surge. It is likely that in September we are going to see something very similar to this latest report--a mixed picture that doesn't point to a clear direction, and will be used as argument on both sides.
And the U.S. military has been trying to downplay what exactly General Petreas will say in September when he reports to Congress. What the General has promised is that it will be a forth right assessment that lays out exactly how he thinks things are going, and exactly what he thinks the prospects are.
But, at this point, all the signs point to General Petreas hearing from his commanders in the field that they want the extra troops to stay a bit longer. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thank you very much. Jamie mcintyre.
There is new evidence that Iran is helping insurgents kill our troops in Iraq. U.S. officials say they have proof that Iran's Revolutionary Guard is training and equipping Shiite insurgents.
One top U.S. lawmaker, Senator Joe Lieberman, says the United States and Iran are now fighting a proxy war in Iraq. Michael Ware reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These American soldiers might not know it, but they have a bounty on their heads according to U.S. military intelligence. A senior U.S. military official tells CNN, Iran Kudz Force is offering reward money to Iraqi militia who kill GIs. The Kudz force is an elite unit of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. U.S. officials are unwilling or unable to offer details of the bounty claims. But with Iranian made bombs tearing into American armor, and plots to kidnap coalition soldiers unfolding, the threat is being taken seriously.
Much clearer, say U.S. officials, is Iran's chain of command. They insist Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and other senior Iranians, know the Kudz Force is involved in killing coalition soldiers.
And the Kudz appear to have help. CNN broke the story that this man, a Lebanese Hezbollah Special Operations Commander, was arrested inside Iraq by U.S. forces in March. His name, Ali Musad Daqduq(ph).
U.S. officials say he was working with Iranian-backed militia, know as the special groups. The U.S. military says that interrogation of Daqduq(ph) and the Iraqis he trained, as well as documents found with them, have provided the most striking evidence linking the Kudz force to violence in Iraq.
BRIG. GEN. KVEIN BERGNER, MULTINATIONAL FORCE--IRAQ: He was directed by Iranian Kudz force to make trips in and out of Iraq and report on the training and operations of the Iraqi special groups.
WARE: The role that Iran wants to play in Iraq might not be one America decides it can live with.
Michael Ware, CNN, Baghdad.
PILGRIM: As President Bush faces new challenges in Iraq, he is also confronted by increasing political difficulties in this country. One issue, former White House aide Scooter Libby and the CIA like case. President Bush declared that Libby will serve probation after he commuted Libby's prison sentence.
However, the judge who sentenced Libby to prison disagrees with the president's assertion on Libby's probation. Ed Henry reports from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: To make the case Lewis Scooter Libby is not getting a slap on the wrist, the president claims he will serve two years of probation.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I felt the punishment was severe. So I made a decision that would commute his sentence, but leave in place a serious fine, and probation.
HENRY: But now the judge says Libby can't serve probation, because his sentence was commuted before he did any prison time.
"Strictly construed," Judge Reggie Walton wrote this week, "the statute authorizing the imposition of supervised released indicates that such release should occur only after the defendant has already served a term of imprisonment."
White House spokesman Scott Stanzel Acknowledged he hasn't read the July 3 order, but nevertheless tried to insist that Libby's probation is not in dispute.
SCOTT STANZEL, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: We believe the attorneys and the judge and the probation office can work out those details.
HENRY: But a clemency expert sided with the judge's interpretation, and said the president may have erred by not first running the commutation by his own Justice Department.
MARGARET LOVE, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PARDON ATTORNEY: One would have thought he would have consulted with the justice department, the people who are the experts on federal sentencing.
HENRY: Their own argument under fire, the White House is lashing out at Bill Clinton's handling of pardons after the former president charged the law is a "minor obstacle to this administration."
STANZEL: The hypocrisy demonstrated by democratic leaders on this issue is rather startling. When you think about the previous administration and the 11th hour fire sale pardons, it's really startling that they have the gall to criticize what we believe is a very considered, a very deliberate approach to a very unique case.
HENRY: Tony Snow went a step further, charging the Clinton should not be throwing stones over clemency, adding "I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it." Kitty?
PILGRIM: Ed Henry reporting, and thank you.
Still to come, new demands for a presidential pardon for a prison border patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean.
Also, rising poverty and corruption in Mexico has forced millions of Mexicans to become illegal aliens in this country.
And startling new evidence the United States is the most welcoming country on the planet for immigrants. We'll have a Special Report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A Mexican businessman may have supplanted Microsoft founder Bill Gates as the world's richest man. Carlos Slim is said to be worth $60 billion. And, as Lisa Sylvester reports, it is a glaring example of the lopsided distribution of wealth in Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA SLYVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There are two Mexicos, one of abject poverty. Twenty percent of the population lives below the poverty line, and nearly 10 percents lives on less than $1 a day, according to figures from the United Nations. The other Mexico is thriving. Pesos and dollars are abundant. The world of the elite class. Among them is Carlos Slim, a Mexican billionaire who, according to Reuters, has a bigger fortune than even Bill Gates, making him, now, the richest man in the world.
CAROL GRAHAM, BROOKINGS INSTITUTE: In Latin America, where inequality has been so deep and persistent, inequality signals to most people, at least according to my research, persistent advantage for the rich and persistent disadvantage for the poor. It's not a signal of equal opportunity.
SLYVESTER: Mexico's wealth gap has been closing in the last decade, but not fast enough. The North American Free Trade Agreement led to farmers leaving for factories in the north, only for those job opportunities to close off when jobs moved to lower wage countries like China.
The nation's poverty crisis is fueling illegal immigration to the United States. The group Numbers USA calls it exporting poverty, a trend that cannot continue.
ROY BECK, NUMBERSUSA: What we saw in the Senate last month was the workers and the working neighborhoods in the United States rising up saying no more. We are not going to pay the cost of Mexico's mismanagement of their economy. You are not going to be able to offload forever.
SLYVESTER: Mexico's president Felipe Calderon has recently instituted new anti-poverty programs. But policy experts say until Mexico takes charge of its own future with structural changes, reforming its education system, and ending corruption, Mexico will continue to be a divided country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
We see the images of poverty in Mexico, but the truth is Mexico has more billionaires than Switzerland, according to Forbes magazine. Policy analysts say with the natural resources and wealth in Mexico its leaders can do a lot more to create opportunities within Mexico, ending the incentive for its citizens to come to the United States illegally. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Well the United States is the most welcoming nation in the world, and that is proved by the large number of legal immigrants and foreign workers in this country. And the number of foreign born residents becoming American citizens is rising.
During this July 4th week more than 15,000 immigrants became citizens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
A swearing in ceremony in Florida at Cinderella's castle. For nearly 1,000 immigrants, America really is the magic kingdom. AMELIO GONZALES, DIRECTOR USCIS: America is a land that really forgets about who you were. America is only interested in who you are, and what you can be.
PILGRIM: In Baghdad.
GONZALES: Raise your right hands.
PILGRIM: Foreign born soldiers sworn in as U.S. citizens on Independence Day. Despite decades of hyphenated Americans--Indian Americans, Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans--a big part of the deal is to truly become Americans.
GONZALES: I absolutely and entirely--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I absolutely and entirely--
GONZALES: Renounce and abjure--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Renounce and abjure--
GONZALES: All allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen.
PILGRIM: The number of new citizens sworn in each year has been climbing steadily in recent years. Some say the national debate over illegal immigration, and the pending application fee increase, has spurred many legal immigrants, who are eligible for citizenship, to make it official and become citizens.
But for many, it is the American dream that is still highly desired.
GARY GERSTLE, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: As we look at what happens to immigrants who become citizens, we see them becoming much more broadly involved in American politics. We see them becoming much more broadly involved in American life.
PILGRIM: In fact, after the ceremony at Disney World, newly minted citizens lined up to register to vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
As USCIS puts it, when a person becomes a legal American, they study this country's history, vote, serve on juries, and fully participate in the fabric of this country.
PILGRIM: Coming up, more news of dangerous products from communist China. We will have a report.
And Microsoft is unhappy with Visa restrictions on temporary workers. And now it is trying to avoid those limitations at the expense of middle-class Americans. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PILGRIM: The label "made in China" is a warning sign to a rising number of Americans. Communist China lags years behind the United States when it comes to product safety standards. And that has led to massive recalls of defectivem and often dangerous products.
John VAUSE has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN BEIJING CORRESPONDENT: So, could you eat pork from pigs force fed waste water? Drink milk from cows given so many antibiotics it's impossible to make yogurt from their milk? How about a serving of lard made from sewage? because all of that, and much more, has been on China's menu in recent months.
Joe Chin is a dissident writer who has researched this country's appalling food standards. The threat is so much more serious than people could ever imagine, he told me.
He says many farmers and producers are continually finding new and dangerous ways to cut costs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: China has low labor costs, but you work out how low the price should be. Businessmen should know something is wrong if the product is cheaper than it should be.
VAUSE: Last week, the U.S. banned four types of fish and shrimp from China because inspectors found traces of cancer causing chemicals and antibiotics, including malachite green, which helps fish survive in polluted, overcrowded fisheries.
It is still being used despite being banned here five years ago, while in the U.S., it was banned 24 years ago.
SALLY GREENBERG, CONSUMERS UNION: We have no real sense of the regulatory infrastructure in China, which, probably, is about 100 years behind where we are in the United States.
VAUSE: And the World Health Organization says time has run out for China to act.
DR ROGER SKINNER, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: China is at a crossroads. I feel, you know, they have to make a decision as to what they are going to do. And this decision which cannot be put off.
VAUSE: It is not just food. Consumer alerts have been issued for product from toxic toothpaste to lead painted toys. So far this year, 60 percent of all recalled consumer products in the U.S. have come from China.
The government here blames media hype.
Consumers shouldn't be scared of Chinese products, he says, they should have a reputation of being good quality, cheap, and safe.
Well, one out of three isn't bad. No one ever said Chinese goods weren't cheap.
John Vause, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Late this week, the consumer product safety commission announced another recall of products made in Communist China--two children's products-- Mag Stix magnetic building sets, and essential jewelry for kids jewelry sets. They are both being recalled.
The small magnets in the building sets are believed to be choking hazards, and the jewelry sets contain high levels of lead.
Now, the recalls come after investigations found nearly a fifth of products sold in communist China are substandard, or contaminated. And the items include food and children's products.
Coming up, stunning new evidence that Microsoft is putting business interests ahead of the interests of the middle-class Americans.
Also, rising anger at the federal government's failure to verify the employment status of all of its workers. Congressman Steve King will join us.
Also, a blunt new warning about the rising threat to this country from radical Islamist terrorists. Former Undersecretary of Defense, Jeb Babbitt is my guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Farmer Sanchez, and here's what is happening right now.
In Iraq, the death toll stand at 117. This is from a suicide bombing 100 miles north of Baghdad. Authorities are saying the bomber rammed a truck with two tons explosives into an outdoor market. The attack on the Shiite Turkmen enclave left 265 people wounded.
And there are political implications to that. We'll tell you about it 10:00.
Triple digit heat again in parts of the west, sections of Arizona, California, Nevada under heat warnings from the National Weather Service. Las Vegas expected to hit 114. This as temperatures top 100 degrees in at least five states.
They are rocking out to save the planet they say. A 24-hour music marathon is spinning tunes across seven continents today. The music with a message event is brain child of former Vice President Al Gore. He hopes the global concerts will raise awareness and spur to people be more environmentally conscious.
It is official, there is a new seven wonders of the world. The list was announced just a short time ago. Here it is-- The Great Wall of China, Jordan's Petra, Brazil's Statue of Christ Redeemer, Peru's Machu Piccu, Mexico's Cicanitza, the pyramid, the Coliseum in Rome, and India's Taj Mahal.
Trourists folks are copying those places. I'm Rick Sanchez. When news breaks I will break in. Now let's go back to Lou.
PILGRIM: The president's show of mercy for Scooter Libby has sparked renewed calls for presidential action in the case of former border patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean.
Now, those agents were given harsh prison sentences for shooting and wounding an illegal alien drug smuggler. Supporters of the agents are demanding a full presidential pardon.
Christine Romans reports.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN HOST: They president decided this White House aide, sentenced to 30 months in prison for perjury and obstruction of justice, had suffered enough.
BUSH: I felt the punishment was severe.
ROMANS: He commuted his sentence, and would not rule out a full pardon.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: As a felony conviction, a $250,000 fine, two years probation, and, basically, has lost the way he has built a living his entire life. That is a pretty significant punishment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Free all border agents.
ROMANS: Supporters of former border agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean are asking for the same compassion. Ramos and Compean are also convicted felons, their careers also over.
They are serving sentences of 11 and 12 years for not following protocol and shooting a fleeing illegal alien drug smuggler in the buttocks.
REP DUNCAN HUNTER, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Clearly, if Scooter Libby deserves a commutation, I would hope the White House on this July 4th, tomorrow, would fully pardon Compean and Ramos.
Ramos has already been beaten up in prison by some of the inmates who recognized him as a border patrol agent. I think they have been punished enough.
ROMANS: While the president has declared the 30 month sentence of a former aide excessive, he has let stand long prison sentences for the agents. The pardon is an exclusive power of the Executive Branch, and scores of lawmakers have demanded Bush add the convicted agents to the list.
Bush has pardoned at least ten convicted drug offenders, in addition to counterfeiters, embezzlers, tax evaders and moon-shiners and his own brother.
This president's father was judicious with pardons, only 74. But Reagan pardoned 393.
Among the 382 Ford pardons, one was for his predecessor, Richard Nixon.
(on-camera): President Bush is being assailed by Democrats for commutation of Libby's sentence just as Clinton was criticized by conservatives for his pardon of Marc Rich.
And as only befits the Beltway, Scooter Libby was once a lawyer for Marc Rich.
Christine Romans, CNN, New York.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A new challenge to the nation's immigration policy tonight from Microsoft. The company's efforts to expand the H1B visa program in the United States have been unsuccessful, so Microsoft is opening a new software development center in Canada, where there are fewer restrictions on hiring foreign workers.
Casey Wian has our report.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Now that Bill Gates has lost his title as world's richest man to a Mexican billionaire, his company is seeking to expand its fortunes across the border, the northern border.
Microsoft plans to open a software development center in Vancouver. The company's press release freely admits the move is an effort to recruit and retain highly skilled people affected by immigration issues in the U.S.
In other words, to get around U.S. restrictions on H1B visas for high tech workers from India, China and elsewhere, Microsoft is expanding in Canada, which has no such limits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GATES, CHAIRMAN OF MICROSOFT CORP.: We have to welcome the great minds in this world, not shut them out of our country. Unfortunately, our immigration policies are driving away the world's best and brightest precisely when we need them the most.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WIAN (voice-over): For months, Gates has been trying to persuade the federal government to allow more foreign high tech workers into the United States. One analyst says Microsoft's Canadian venture may be a form of blackmail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON HIRA, ROCHESTER INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY: Unfortunately, they've chosen to advocate for unlimited H1Bs when it's clear that the H1B program has been corrupted both by outsourcing firms as well as by cheap labor. (END VIDEO CLIP)
WIAN (voice-over): The United States grants about 85,000 H1B visas for skilled foreign workers each year. Most of them go to companies that either outsource jobs overseas or choose not to hire Americans.
Microsoft declined to be interviewed on camera, but released a statement saying, "Microsoft is a global company, and our greatest asset is smart, talented, highly skilled people. Our goal as a company is to attract a next generation of leading software developers from all parts of the world. And this center will be a beacon for some of that talent."
(on-camera): Microsoft plans to hire about 200 new employees in Vancouver this fall. Canadian reports say that could be expanded eventually to 1,000 people.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
PILGRIM: It's not only the private sector that is costing American workers their jobs. One of the largest, perhaps the largest employer of illegal workers is the federal government.
Congressman Steve King is demanding action from President Bush and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
Congressman King told me why he believes the federal government hires illegal workers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REPRESENTATIVE STEVE KING, R-IOWA: I think it's obvious that the federal government has just decided that they're not going to police their own forces, that they'll hire indiscriminately without using the basic pilot program which we have been asking employers to use across this country for more than 10 years.
And I think it shows also, the attitude that comes from the White House that we're going to be pretty lax about this and maybe if the problem gets big enough then we can advance the amnesty.
Well, now the shoe is on the other foot. The broader immigration reform policy is dead. Now we all need to focus on the enforcement of the existing laws we have. And this is the most egregious that I know of.
PILGRIM: Well, certainly enforcement should never have been abandoned.
And, you know, it really is interesting, you talk about the pilot program. And this is a program where an employer can cross-check a Social Security number. The Department of Homeland Security and Social Security Administration have the tools to actually do this cross-checking. Why aren't they doing it?
KING: I have no idea why. And we raised this issue now for a few days.
Of course, a letter will then hit the president's desk pretty soon and as soon as we turn this around after the Fourth of July.
And I think not only should he issue a directive to all of his offices and every department to go in and use the basic pilot and clean up the illegal employees that they have.
And the most likely number that we can see out of this sample is perhaps 11,000 workers working for the government who are not authorized to do so in the United States.
But I think he should issue an executive order directing every one of his department heads to use all the resources at their disposal to enforce the law and to see to it that those people who have violated the law working for the United States are punished according to the law and not just simply given a pass.
PILGRIM: Let's take a look at some numbers. The report shows that between 2001 and 2003, over 49,000 noncitizens with non-work Social Security cards were working for government agencies -- several federal agencies, seven state agencies and three local agencies.
You know, the magnitude of this is astonishing. Do you believe that noncitizens working for the federal government or any government organization is a security risk?
KING: I absolutely believe it's a security risk. And this doesn't show us how many are working for the Department of Defense, for example. There's another report that would indicate you might be able to conclude about 2,000 could be working for the Department of Defense.
We have over 1,177,000 -- 1,777,000 that are civilians working for the federal government somewhere along the way. And in there also are many from Iran, many from the People's Republic of China, as well as those big numbers that come through our 15 members of the intelligence community.
We don't know how many of them could be working for the CIA, FBI, defense intelligence, the Department of Defense -- I gave some numbers to. But this list goes on.
I want to have a clean look at all of this. I want to see how many of these non-work Social Security numbers are there and how many of them are not authorized and how many of them are in sensitive positions.
But the federal government and all government has the responsibility to abide by the laws. And they are not doing that. They need to be held accountable. That needs to start on the fifth of July, not the Fourth of July. PILGRIM: You're suggesting that we don't even know the magnitude of this problem despite the study...
(CROSSTALK) PILGRIM: ... is that right?
KING: I have tried to -- I looked at these numbers and rolled them around over and over again trying to put some linkages together where I could say to the American people, "We have X number of government employees," which are around 21 million.
And yet this report has what government often has, deniable links in there so that you can't link it and say we can extrapolate out a certain number or a certain percentage of all employees. It's only a certain percentage of a sample.
So we can't know and we can't get access at these numbers. The federal government has the data, though, between the Social Security Administration and the Department of Homeland Security. They just need to run those databases against each other.
And, by the way, the IRS needs to come into this picture. That's the other entity out there that has data that needs to be linked together. I want all three of them working together to enforce our immigration laws. And they need to clean up their standards before they're going to impose a policy on America and say that it can be done in a far greater magnitude than the (inaudible) in the United States today.
PILGRIM: Well, we certainly commend you on your vigilance. And thank you very much for coming on the program tonight to discuss it.
Representative Steve King, thank you, sir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Just ahead, the battle for election cash escalates. We'll tell you how the presidential candidates are faring. Three of the country's best political minds will join me.
And the author of a powerful new book on worldwide terrorism says America needs to wake up. Jed Babbin, author of "In the Words of Our Enemies," he joins us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: My next guest says we should listen carefully to the words of terrorists. He says America has no shortage of enemies and the warnings should be taken seriously.
Jed Babbin, a former undersecretary of defense has a new book, "In the Words of Our Enemies." He is not surprised that medical professionals were involved in the bomb plots against Britain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JED BABBIN, AUTHOR: I think we really shouldn't be too shocked about the fact that these people are well-educated, wealthy and risen high in society. The fact is that this is an ideological struggle. People are not propelled into terrorism only by poverty and disruption. They are propelled by a hatred and -- very deeply based ideology that does not allow them any other path in life.
We have to study what these people are saying and what their leaders are saying to really understand what's going on.
PILGRIM: Certain thinkers have described it as atomization of the Al Qaida movement that's breaking apart into small groups, very small cells. Do you agree with that assessment? And if that's the case, how on earth do you fight it?
BABBIN: Well, yes, I do agree. I think Al Qaida is more, if you will, a brand or a franchise than it is really a movement. I don't think they have the command-and-control to deal with all of these folks around the world.
To deal with it is a bigger and more profound question, Kitty. The real issue is do we define our enemy in a particular way, do we understand first that radical Islam is not a religion. It's an ideology.
Islam is a religion. But radical Islam is an ideology. We have to fight it the way we fought Nazism and Communism, both in the kinetic war, to find and destroy these people where we can.
And, also, we have to fight the ideological war. We have to show the world why their ideology is a failure. It promises poverty and death and destruction.
Why can't we we just say, "We're Americans. We offer opportunity and prosperity." It sounds like a better deal.
PILGRIM: Yes. Let me just quote from your book -- because I think it's quite brilliant. In your book you say, "We Americans are great talkers but are often not great listeners. And to our detriment, we assume that we comprehend the mindset of our adversaries."
And you write, "When some dictator threatens to end our way of life, destroy our economy and end our influence over his nation, we usually either ignore him or rationalize his statements in our own context rather than judge him better through an understanding of his culture, history and ideology."
Are we blaming the victim here, though? I mean, are we really that short in understanding?
It's almost incomprehensible why people would send their children out as suicide bombers.
BABBIN: Well, let me parse that out a little bit because a couple of parts to your question, there.
PILGRIM: Big question, sorry.
BABBIN: No, no, it's OK.
I mean, the first issue is, do we really -- are we blaming the victim? I don't think so. We're really just being Americans. We're pretty big-hearted people. We don't like to think evil of people.
And when we see someone like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying we're not going to have Israel on this planet much longer, we're saying, "Ah, well, come one. It's just puffery."
Well, sometimes it's not. People don't always act in their enlightened self-interest. Sometimes there really is evil in the world.
The second point is, there's a lot of people out there who think it's very easy to bash America. And it is. My issue and my job and what I'm hoping to do with this book is to help penetrate this and to help separate the real danger from just the noise.
PILGRIM: You know, I'd really like to get to another point. And you're' hearing this a lot, sort of, out on the street, in conversation. Many critics of the Iraq war blame the U.S. military presence there for increased anti-Americanism and say that we're actually making the situation worse by being in Iraq.
what do you think?
BABBIN: Well, I think there is some measure of truth in that. I think there are people who are attracted to terrorism because we have been in Iraq.
However, there are so many others who are attracted to terrorism for so many other reasons. These people don't hate us only because of Iraq. They have hated us, as I show in the book, for decades and decades, much longer before this.
PILGRIM: You know, I wish we had 20 minutes to do this, but I have to change subjects to China. Growing military build-up there. Many people say engagement will work and that will sort of unplug the military aspirations of China; some say know we really should keep our eye on this.
What's your view on the rising military dominance of China in the region?
BABBIN: Well, basically we have to look at history. And you know, I think Churchill was right. In history, or all the secrets of statecraft, there's no nation in history that's ever risen to superpower status except on the tide of war. That includes us.
So when we look at China as an emerging superpower, we have to see what they're trying to do.
I think the issue -- and the White House gets very nervous whenever I talk about this -- but our policy toward China should be containment. We should go to the nations around China and say, "You don't want to be in their path. We don't want you to be conquered. Let's kind of get together and let's have a, if you will, a hawkish diplomacy toward China."
PILGRIM: I have to go to Russia. Vladimir Putin, President Bush met this week. Russia's democracy seems wobbly at best. It's very disturbing some of the things coming out of Russia at this point.
How worried are you about Russia?
BABBIN: Very. Pooty Put (ph) is not a good guy. He is trying to restore and he has restored autocracy. He is very dirty in the international market.
And when Vladimir Putin, as we quote in the book, says that the Iranians are his partners, I think that pretty much says it all. This guy is allied with the terrorist nations. We have to be pretty aggressive, again, a hawkish diplomacy toward Russia.
PILGRIM: A must-read, this book. Former Undersecretary of Defense Jed Babbin, the author of "In the Words of Our Enemies." Absolutely brilliant book.
Thank you, sir.
BABBIN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Just ahead, running on empty. Senator John McCain cuts his staff as he struggles to survive the presidential race. Three of the country's best political analysts will join me with that and much more.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me now three of the country's best political analysts. In Washington, we have Diana West, columnist for the Washington Times; here in New York, Errol Louis, columnist for the New York Daily News; and syndicated columnist Miguel Perez.
And thanks for being here.
You know, let's bring ahead to next week. On Monday, defense authorization bill will be taken up by the Senate. We already had this past week, Senator Pete Domenici breaking ranks with the president on the war in Iraq.
How do you assess the entire debate on the defense spending bill and the Iraq issue?
Miguel, let's start with you?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, Senator Domenici, I think, and Lugar and others are positioning themselves for the next election. They're all running reelection. And they're basically taking a middle-of-the-road position here. They're not saying, "I want to withdraw troops immediately. I don't want to cut funding."
So what are they really saying? They're saying, "I want to be in the middle so that the voters can be a little confused about who I really am."
(LAUGHTER)
PILGRIM: Confuse the voters. Sounds like a great strategy.
Diana?
(LAUGTER)
DIANA WEST, COLUMNIST, WASHINGTON TIMES: That could well be what they have in mind. They haven't done anything brave or striking here.
What we're seeing is a break, half of which I personally agree with. American soldiers should not be looking for American security going house to house in Iraq cities.
But the second shoe that drops in all of the Republican senatorial statements is that they want to fall back to the Iraq Study Group, which I think is just as unrealistic as the current Bush strategy.
The Iraq Study Group calls on Iran and Syria to help us quell unrest in Iraq, and furthermore wants to delegate Iran's nuclear ambitions to the U.N. Security Council, which means Russia and China.
So this isn't a new strategy. This is a different more of the same.
PILGRIM: Errol?
ERROL LOUIS, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: New Mexico is a purple state. Sometimes it goes red; sometimes it goes blue. You've got a Republican in the Senate -- Domenici. You've got a Democratic governor who's running for president -- Bill Richardson, who's a real Democrat.
It went for Gore -- New Mexico, did; it also went for Bush.
So you've got to, sort of, look at the real politics of it. He's up for re-election. He knows that the public not just in New Mexico but really all across the country is really closely divided on this. And he and other Republican senators, they don't want -- they want their majority back if they can get it. They certainly don't want to lose any more seats.
So I think what you're seeing is the first bit of, not panic, but real serious political concern that they're going to ride this Iraq war into a catastrophic defeat at the polls next year.
PILGRIM: It really does beg the question, though, is President Bush losing political capital by the second. This week he commuted Lewis Scooter Libby's prison sentence. He says a full pardon may not even be out of the question.
How is all this affecting him politically?
Miguel?
PEREZ: Oh, he's definitely losing political capital. And I think what he did with Libby thus far -- and the pardon is still out there, as we know. But what he's done, thus far, really -- I mean, you know, basically, he sends out a message to the rest of the world that in this country some people are above the law.
And it happens -- some other presidents have done the same thing, of course, with pardons. But this one in particular, this is a member of his administration that he's basically pardoning already -- I mean, basically, saying he's not -- he doesn't have to go to jail. He got the little pass that we all get when we play Monopoly.
PILGRIM: The White House has basically railed against President Clinton and Hillary Clinton for remarks they made about this pardon.
Let's take a look at what Tony Snow said: "I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a giant case of it."
You know, he was referring to the Clintons' decision to pardon 140 people on his last day in office. There's a bit of duplicity in this.
Diana?
WEST: Well, I would agree. I mean, the Clinton pardon list was a group of mob banks and criminals that is really historic in its dimension. We had terrorists, drug dealers, financial fugitives, all of this.
I think that the Scooter Libby commutation -- I'm not sure the president would have done it had he not lost on the amnesty bill. I think he was reaching out to the base.
I think it was the appropriate decision myself, because I think that there was no underlying crime in this whole prosecution. We knew the leaker -- or rather the prosecutor knew the leaker was out of the State Department for years and continued this, what I think, was a very political prosecution, that name in the State Department being Richard Armitage.
But I think that the president was trying to do something that he though his base would approve of. And I'm not sure that he would have felt that way he had won on amnesty.
LOUIS: I think there are two things going on here.
One is -- first of all, Tony Snow was right. It does take a lot of nerve for somebody in the Clinton camp to, sort of, raise this question on this particular issue. But that doesn't mean that it's not a problem. I mean, what he did is terrible for really two important reasons. One is that this administration argued over and over again that there should be no departures from the very harsh federal sentencing guidelines, and this is a case where he just threw it away. He didn't even consult with his attorneys. He just sort of, like, dictated it.
And then, secondly, it really does raise the question of, not, necessarily a cover-up, but certainly by not giving him the full pardon -- which he could have done -- by not giving him that, it now enables Scooter Libby to say, "Well, I have an appeal pending. I haven't been fully pardoned. I'm sorry, I can't come to Congress and tell you what else I know.
So what they're really trying to do is dampen this down, stop any further inquiries. And that stinks.
PILGRIM: And, also, an effective way to do it is to do it this week when it really is a very slow news week and a holiday week for many Americans.
We'll be right back in a minute. Stay with us.
(COMMERICAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: And we are back with our panel. And let's go straight to the campaigns, which are really fun to talk about, especially because some of the money is showing up.
And it's been interesting, Senator Barack Obama trails Hillary Clinton in the polls but leads her in money. Miguel, what do you make of this?
PEREZ: That means he's got time to spend money. And that's what it's all about.
In this particular presidential election it's all about who's got the money and how long they can last. That's the problem we're seeing with McCain. They're saying he may not be able to last past Iowa and New Hampshire because he's been able to raise very little money.
So it really is about the money this time.
PILGRIM: Diana?
WEST: Well, I think the money and the polls are out of step with one another. I mean, I think that the money, in Senator Obama's case shows that there is great hope for him that he will develop into a viable candidate. But I think the polls reflect that he doesn't really excite people when he opens his mouth in his -- in his political acumen and his speeches.
So it's an interesting -- I think there will be probably some kind of catch-up here eventually. But we're so early.
(CROSSTALK)
WEST: That's what we're seeing.
LOUIS: I mean, that's right.
I mean, Clinton is just a lot closer to closing the deal. And she has closed the deal with a lot of voters. That's what you're seeing in the polls -- the people who either liked her husband or liked what they heard from her. She's been campaigning, really, nationally for quite awhile now. They're locked in and they're going with Clinton.
Obama has got a much tougher job and he's going to need all of that extra money to introduce himself over and over again to people who still maybe didn't see him, you know, at the national convention in 2004, don't know his history and want to know more before they'll feel comfortable.
There's so much at stake with so different issues right now that people are not going to lightly throw their allegiance to an unknown, even a very attractive one.
PILGRIM: And, as you point out, Senator Clinton has a great asset at her side. Let's listen to what she said about Bill Clinton campaigning with her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR HILLARY CLINTON, D-N.Y., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's been so much fun having Bill with me the last couple of days. We've had a great time traveling across Iowa. It is so much like what we did for all those years in Arkansas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: There has been some discussion, though, that he might be slightly upstaging her. Do you think that that's a problem, Miguel?
PEREZ: Absolutely. And I don't think it's an asset for her. I mean, the guy shines brighter than she does wherever they stand together. And I think the media is going to continue to cover that angle of the story, what is he doing to overshadow her, how is she (inaudible) hurts her.
LOUIS: It's an interesting gender switch. In the past, you'd have a very strong male candidate and might have their wife maybe step forward a little bit to try and soften them around the edges. That's really what Bill is doing for Hillary here. She comes across as strong. All the polls show it. People are confident in her ability to lead. They wonder, though, if she's really going to connect with them.
And then there he is to bite his bottom lip and, you know, choke on his words a little bit and misstep when he's talking about 9/11. And I think it's going to work.
PEREZ: What I think he demonstrates -- that he's a lot more human than she is, more compassionate. He makes people cry, he makes people laugh. And somehow she doesn't get around to doing that (inaudible)
PILGRIM: The subjective assessment is often very important.
Go ahead, Diana?
WEST: I was just going to say, I mean, we had eight years of Bill Clinton misting up for the camera.
(LAUGHTER)
And then in some situations -- at funerals, et cetera, for Ron Brown -- if people remember that -- stopping when the camera was off. I man, there's a lot of phoniness to this emotional quotient with the Clintons. And it really depends on how much the relationship reminds people about what we really didn't like about those eight years, whi8ch had to do with so much of the backstage scandals at the White House -- that Senator Clinton has managed to avoid discussing for most of her own political career.
So it really -- what kind of trip down memory lane we take remains to be seen.
PILGRIM: That makes for great campaign watching, though, however.
Thanks very much for being with us this weekend -- Errol Louis, Diana West and Miguel Perez, thank you.
And thank you for joining us. Please join us tomorrow for all of us here. Thanks for watching. Enjoy your weekend.
Good night from New York.
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