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Lou Dobbs This Week

GOP Senate Retirements Create Dem '08 Openings

Aired October 07, 2007 - 18:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KITTY PILGRIM, HOST: Tonight, defiance and anger in the battle over driver's licenses for illegal aliens. The author of the Real ID Act, Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, will join us.
And some Christian conservatives are outraged by Rudy Giuliani. Will those conservatives back a third-party presidential candidate? All that and much more straight ahead tonight.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK, news, debate and opinion for Sunday, October 7th. Here now, Kitty Pilgrim.

PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody. GOP efforts to regain control of the U.S. Senate may have suffered a major setback. Senator Pete Domenici of New Mexico has announced he will retire for health reasons. The senator is one of several GOP senators who are stepping down. Democrats are confident they can win a bigger majority in the Senate in next year's election.

SEN. PETE DOMENICI (R), NEW MEXICO: And I come here today to the site of the school that I attended as a boy to tell you that I will not run for re-election to the United States Senate.

((BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM (voice-over): Pete Domenici announcing he will retire at the end of his term rather than run for reelection next year. The senator from New Mexico joins John Warner of Virginia, Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, and Wayne Allard of Colorado on the list of Republicans not running for re-election. And that's making the GOP's tough task of taking back the Senate next year even tougher.

Democrats took back both houses of Congress last November, but hold thin majorities. In the Senate they have a razor thin 51-49 margin. But the numbers are stacking up against the Republicans. They are defending 22 of the 34 seats up for grabs next year.

And besides the four GOP senators retiring, another four up for reelection are fighting for their political lives. One Democrat up for next year is in serious trouble. It's not only the numbers that are stacking up against Republicans.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: You've got an unpopular war, an unpopular president, and an overwhelming desire for change, and in a presidential year, the president's party defines the status quo.

PILGRIM: Also hurting the Republicans, scandals. What the Democrats call the "culture of corruption." And the current controversy surrounding Republican Larry Craig of Idaho isn't helping his party at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now Senator Larry Craig says he won't resign from the Senate even though a judge turned down his request to withdraw a guilty plea in a restroom sex sting. Joining me now is senior political analyst Bill Schneider, and senior political analyst Gloria Borger (ph), and our congressional correspondent Dana Bash.

And thank you all for being here. Let's start with the Republicans. Are they in tough, tough shape, Bill?

SCHNEIDER: Yes, the simple answer. They are. Even though they only need to gain a net of one seat to regain their majority in the Senate. It doesn't look like it's likely to happen. You show the statistics, all of the Republican seats at stake, four Republicans giving up their seat. And most important of all, the change issue is working against them.

Even though the Democrats are in power in Congress, the president is a Republican. So the change issue to most voters means throw out the Republicans, including Republicans in Congress.

PILGRIM: Much is being made of this so-called culture of corruption, Gloria. Do you think that it's being overblown or do you think the American public really believes this?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think the American public really believes this. I think that was in great measure what the midterm election was about. You had the Congressman Foley scandal. I think Senator Craig staying in the Senate really doesn't help Republicans very much. Honestly there's not much they can do about it. The Republican senators would just as soon see him leave the Senate, but he has decided to stay and they're kind of stuck with him.

PILGRIM: Well, is there anything they can do, Gloria?

BORGER: No, there really is not. If he wants to stay, as he says, and represent his state and he can do that. They could expel him if they wanted to do that, but the problem with expelling him is then they would turn that into a huge story, and you would have a debate on the Senate floor about expelling a senator like Larry Craig. And I'm not so sure that's a debate they want to have on national television.

PILGRIM: Yes, and that would certainly -- and it wouldn't be a quick one either because that would drag for weeks.

Dana, any thoughts on this topic?

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you that in talking to some Republican leadership aides, there is one option that they have, and that is, you know, you saw in Senator Craig's statement about why he's staying, he said that in part it's because he has found in the past few weeks since he has come back to work in the Senate that he has work on the committee that he's still on, that he thinks can he use to help the people of Idaho.

What some Republican leadership aides are saying that they could do is actually take him off those committees. And what that would mean, Kitty, is having a secret ballot among Republicans and then taking that to a full Senate vote. It is a possibility, one I'm told that they're really sort of deliberating over for the reason that Gloria just stated. Because it's probably something that they could do, they could get the votes to do it, but it again would keep the story going, keep the spectacle go.

But I can tell you, there is such anger, palpable anger here on Capitol Hill, especially among those Republicans who basically they have egg on their face because they tried so hard to essentially throw one of their own under the bus and it backfired against them.

PILGRIM: That's right. Bill, you're nodding like you have something more to add.

SCHNEIDER: Well, just that what they would like to do is get rid of him without making a big issue of it, without having the sort of damaging debate that Gloria described. And that is going to be very difficult to do.

PILGRIM: Yes. And then this campaign season, it's certainly not going to be anything that they can do quietly. Let's move on to another topic, this week two classified memos were released describing interrogation tactics authorized by the Bush administration, basically characterizes torture. Now President Bush on Friday defended the tactics and he said that they have made America safer.

Let's listen to the comment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This government does not torture people. You know, we stick to U.S. law and our international obligations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Now, this does not sit well with many people in your town. Bill, let's start with you.

SCHNEIDER: Why was the memo issued in secret if President Bush was clear in saying this government doesn't torture people? The memo seems to authorize torture, and it was issued in secret by the Justice Department. Why was it kept a secret?

PILGRIM: Gloria, and this is also a ripple effect from other issues about quietly doing business behind the scenes, isn't it?

BORGER: Right. And this is a debate that not only rages in the country, Kitty, but it also rages within the Republican Party because there are Republicans, most notably Senator John McCain, who is, of course, running for the presidency who disagrees with what the president has said on the issue of torture, disagreeing, in fact, with some of the definitions that the administration has used on torture.

And that's what it really comes down to here, what is the definition of torture? Is water boarding torture? Some people would say yes, some people would say no. But again, it's not a debate that really helps Republicans because it splits the party itself.

PILGRIM: This really goes beyond the political discussion, too, into the American family, because this is not something that Americans are comfortable with even discussing, Dana.

BASH: That's right, it's not and certainly if you talk to Democrats and Republicans here on Capitol Hill, they say this is one of the primary reasons why America's reputation is so, so bad across the world, because of issues like this, because of headlines like we saw.

But you know, it's sort of interesting. This is one of those issues, the issue of torture, where Gloria mentions John McCain, where Democrats have been able to work with some Republicans, ironically like John McCain and Senator Lindsey Graham on this issue. And it has been one of the issues that they have able to have, in a bipartisan way, some impact on the Bush administration, unlike, frankly, the Iraq War.

This is something that it would be interesting to see how much pushback the Democrats, because of the -- they're going to have help from Republicans, are able to get on the White House on this.

PILGRIM: How much discussion do you anticipate, Dana, in the week ahead on this?

BASH: Well, the Senate is actually for a change not in session next week. They are going to be in recess. But the House will be. And we certainly saw a lot of statements from Democrats on this. I think they're still trying to figure out exactly how they're going to go forward in terms of oversight, in terms of legislation, or any other avenue that they have. But they certainly are trying to figure out the best way to do that, because again, you know, you sort of look at the difference in the atmosphere here in Washington between now and just 10 months ago.

Remember, Democrats have all kinds of power that they didn't have, because they are in control of committees and they do have -- although they have a slim majority, they do have votes now that they simply did not have to perform oversight over the Bush administration.

PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Dana Bash, Bill Schneider, Gloria Borger, thank you very much.

Still to come, communist China is trying to obtain our most sensitive defense technologies. Could Beijing gain access to Pentagon's computers?

Also, some Christian conservatives are furious with presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani. We'll tell you why.

And buyer beware, rising concern about the safety of Halloween toys imported from communist China. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: More U.S. defense technology is about to fall into the hands of communist China. A Chinese company with ties to Beijing's military will soon have access to sensitive information that could threaten our national interests. Now this comes months after computer attacks on the Pentagon allegedly by Chinese hackers.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 3Com announced a deal that places a minority share of the U.S. computer networking company into the hands of a Chinese firm called Huawei.

James Mulvenon advises the U.S. intelligence community and he worries this deal will compromise U.S. national security.

JAMES MULVENON, CENTER FOR INTELLIGENCE RESEARCH: I think that the Huawei merger with 3Com presents a pretty significant threat to U.S. national security because of Huawei's ties with the military and what that might mean for China's ability to conduct computer network attacks against the United States.

SYLVESTER: Huawei's founder is a former Chinese soldier. One U.S. defense official is quoted as saying the company supplies the Chinese military with communications networks. Huawei denies that.

3Com provides U.S. government agencies with network wireless security including the Pentagon. Nuclear arms control expert, Gary Milhollin says the business deal could potentially give Huawei access to the Defense Department's computer network capabilities.

GARY MILHOLLIN, WISCONSIN PROJECT ON NUCLEAR ARMS CONTROL: The issue is access to technology. And the issue is getting U.S. technology on the cheap, taking it home and using it against us, which is what Huawei has done in the past.

SYLVESTER: According to an Iraq Study Group report, Huawei violated U.N. sanctions by providing transmission equipment switches to Iraq. Bain Capital Partners, the deal's primary investor, has agreed to a voluntary review by the Treasury Department's Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States.

In a statement, Bain Capital said: "We believe the U.S. government review in this matter will conclude that the company will be firmly controlled by an American firm, have only a small minority foreign shareholder, and that the deal presents no risks to national security.

(END VIDEOTAPE) SYLVESTER: Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson will recuse himself from the government review because of his ties to Goldman Sachs. Paulson is a former CEO of Goldman Sachs and that investment firm is advising 3Com on the merger -- Kitty.

PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester.

Well, I talked with the ranking member on the House Armed Services Committee and Republican presidential candidate Duncan Hunter. I talked to him about the red flags this business deal is raising for our military and national security.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Potentially, this goes right to the heart of cyber security for the Department of Defense, because this Chinese company has a -- will have as a strategic partner -- and that's what they say they're going to become with 3Com, which is our company, which does cyber security for DOD under classified contracts. They would presumably have access to techniques and to capabilities that would endanger our particular cyber security.

So this is -- this goes right to the heart of something which is very important to DOD. And while they're only an investor, the press release that was put out said they will be a strategic partner, implying that they are going to have access to technology. They're not just money people pushing money into a deal with a firewall between them and America's security company. They're going to be part of that company. They're going to be a part owner. That could potentially be dangerous.

So we asked the Committee on Foreign Investment, headed by Secretary Paulson, to undertake a full review. And the letter requesting this review is signed by myself and Pete Hoekstra, who is ranking member on the Intelligence Committee.

PILGRIM: You know, the equity group, Bain Capital Partners, insists "the deal presents absolutely no risk to national security." That's a quote. You and Congressman Hoekstra sent a letter, which you just referred to, to Treasury Secretary Paulson.

I'm going to read a quick quote for the benefit of our viewers: "At stake is whether Huawei will control voting seats on the board of the new company. And, far more importantly, will it have access to technology, research and development of the new company?"

And you're also worried that U.S. intelligence and military contracts may come through the same company. Is this a big danger?

HUNTER: I think it's a big danger. And, you know, the Bain Capital spokesman obviously didn't read Huawei's own press release, which didn't say they were simply going to be money people. It said they would be a strategic partner. That means they get involved in the inner workings of the company. And the inner workings of this company have to do with cyber security, partly for the Department of Defense of the United States of America.

So, you know, these investment groups are great at putting out very vague press releases and the U.S. military often has to clean up after them. In this case, we don't want to have to clean up after them. We want to prevent this deal if it looks like it has got any danger to national security whatsoever.

PILGRIM: Is it clear to you that this deal was structured to not raise any red flags?

HUNTER: It looks like it's a subtle investment here. You've got a -- you've got the Bain Capital making the primary buy. They've got this strategic partner, which is Huawei, which is sitting off to the side. But, nonetheless, when you have money, you have access.

And if you've got access to technology and to procedures and to capabilities, that means at some point you can exploit those capabilities. And that means that this area we're already worried about for the Department of Defense -- because China has made cyber attacks on DOD assets already. So we know that they're going after that capability and the U.S. Department of Defense.

So anything that goes after that particular sensitive area, we've got to be very careful about. So I think we need the Committee on Foreign Investment to take a real thorough look at this thing, report back to the president and report back to the armed services committees and the intelligence committees in the both the Senate and the House.

PILGRIM: All right, thank you very much. Representative Duncan Hunter, thank you, sir.

HUNTER: Absolutely.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Still ahead tonight, buyers beware. Millions of toys made in China already on the their way to the United States just in time for the holiday season. Now considering the recent massive recalls, will any be taken off the shelves?

And the religious right says it would rather lose a presidential election than support the wrong candidate. We'll have a report on that. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: Another sign of the growing influence of religion on this country's politics. A group of Christian conservatives is threatening to back a third-party presidential candidate if Rudy Giuliani wins the GOP nomination.

As John King reports, it's not only Rudy Giuliani who is making conservative Christians angry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Conservative icon Richard Viguerie calls it a warning shot not only to Rudy Giuliani but the entire Republican Party.

RICHARD VIGUERIE, CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST: If they go third party, this will, I guarantee you, not be a one-time effort. It will be that we have determined that the Republican Party is beyond salvation, that they have lied and betrayed the conservative voters one time too many.

KING: The tough talk follows a meeting that included Focus on the Family's James Dobson, Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council, Viguerie, and others. Social conservatives for months have complained about what they call lip service from the Bush White House, congressional Republicans, and the leading GOP presidential hopefuls.

TONY PERKINS, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: To the degree that the party moves away from those principal issues, social conservatives, evangelicals will move away from the party.

KING: Giuliani is of most urgent concern. He supports abortion rights, including taxpayer funded abortions as New York mayor. Giuliani also marched in gay rights parades and called the city's domestic partners benefits a model for the nation.

PERKINS: These are fundamental issues, these are black and white issues. These are issues that there's just no room for negotiation.

KING: The Giuliani camp plays down the threat, noting polls showing strong support among church-going evangelicals and Catholics. Asked Monday about the conservative opposition, the former mayor played what he views as a trump card.

RUDY GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I run the most competitive against Hillary Clinton by a big, big margin. And I take some Democratic states from her, nobody else does that.

KING: There are huge hurdles to third-party candidacies, but one born of social conservative frustration would be a huge threat to Republican chances.

ANDREW KOHUT, PEW RESARCH CENTER: Somewhere between a big problem and a nightmare. Christian conservatives, both white evangelicals and Catholics represent 40 percent, 50 percent of the Republican base. No, they're not all going to defect to a third party. But if a significant number of them do, it just adds to the troubles that the GOP can look forward to in November.

KING: The goal of the conservative leaders is to derail Giuliani's candidacy now. But if they fail and he wins the nomination, they insist they are not bluffing.

VIGUERIE: The train has left the station in terms of conservatives feeling that we have to have a strategy for conservatives to govern America. We have not locked into one strategy or another strategy, but high on that list is the consideration for a third party.

KING (on camera): The social conservative leaders acknowledge the third party route would likely help the Democrats next year. But they say is it a price they are willing to pay if the alternative is to quietly allow a social moderate like Giuliani to take control of the Republican Party they have dominated since the rise of Ronald Reagan.

John King, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: And James Dobson, founder of Focus on Family Action, echoed that comment this week. Now writing in a New York Times op-ed piece, Dobson said: "If major political parties decide to abandon conservative principles, the cohesion of pro-family advocates will be all too apparent in 2008."

Dobson added that if no candidate meets their values, religious conservatives will support a third-party candidate or start a party of their own regardless of the candidate's ability to be elected. Quote: "Winning the presidential election is vitally important, but not at the expense of what we hold most dear."

Coming up, we'll discuss the influence of religion on politics with our panel of distinguished political analysts.

And then, New York's governor wants to issue drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. We'll speak with a congressman who thinks the plan is a step backward for national security.

And are our toys getting any safer? We'll have a special report and we'll hear from two consumer experts. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris with a look at what's happening right "Now in the News." Shock and sadness right now in northern Wisconsin, a part-time police officer has been killed by a police sniper after a standoff. The officer is suspected of killing six people at an overnight shooting rampage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF KEITH VAN CLEVE, FOREST COUNTY, WISCONSIN: At approximately 2:47 a.m., City of Crandon police officer responded to gunshots at a residence in the city of Crandon. At this point, there are six deceased inside that residence. The subject was located by law enforcement officers. The subject is deceased and there's no longer a threat to the public. The department of criminal investigations will be handling the scene and investigation. We'll be setting a news conference up tomorrow afternoon. There will be no further information released at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS: The United Nations is charging that a town in Sudan has been burned to the ground in apparent retaliation for recent attack on African Union peacekeeping troops. The attack last week killed at least 10 troops in the troubled Darfur region. The U.N. isn't saying who razed the town, called Haskanita. But it says the town was controlled by Sudanese troops.

Scores of people were arrested in Denver yesterday while taking part in a protest of the annual Columbus Day parade. Demonstrators littered the route with dismembered dolls and fake blood, but no serious injuries were reported. Among those taken into custody, Native American activist Russell Means. The protesters say Christopher Columbus was a slave trader who touched off centuries of genocide against Native Americans.

The president of Oral Roberts University is angrily denying accusations he has used school funds to fund a lavish lifestyle. Three former university professors are leveling those accusations in a lawsuit against Richard Roberts, Oral Roberts' son. The suit claims Roberts used the money from ORU and Oral Roberts Ministries to, among other things, buy clothes, expensive cars and trips.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROBERTS, PRES., ORAL ROBERTS UNIV.: It is about intimidation, blackmail, and extortion. Make no mistake about it, this suit is about money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: And deadly heat in Chicago. A Michigan man died today while running at the city's annual marathon. Temperatures neared 90 and humidity levels were extremely high. Race organizers shut down the course midway through the race as a precaution. Two hundred fifty people were hospitalized with heat-related illnesses.

I'm Tony Harris in Atlanta. Now back to LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK.

PILGRIM: There were more recalls this week of dangerous toys and children's products made in communist China. More than a half million items are being pulled off store shelves because of lead contamination. Now, these latest recalls come as Congress finally acts to remove lead from children's products.

Christine Romans reports Congress is also working to make big business and government accountable for the safety of children's goods.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another day, yet another recall, innocent looking wooden baby blocks from KB Toys. And just in time for Halloween, Frankenstein tumblers from Dollar General. The Consumer Products Safety Commission and the toy industry say recalls show the system is safe and working. But both the House and the Senate have introduced tough bills to protect children. Alan Korn is a safety expert who found six recalled toys in his own son's toy box.

ALAN KORN, SAFE KIDS WORLDWIDE: I think everybody is in agreement here, let's just get the lead out of the toys altogether.

ROMANS: Democratic Congressmen have introduced the Lead Free Toy Act to ban lead from toys, toy jewelry and products used by children under age 6, doing what importers and the government agencies have not.

REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: Over the last couple of decades, you know, the prevailing political wisdom has been to reduce government to the size where you can drown it in a bathtub, right?

And we've seen what happens when you do that.

ROMANS: The CPSC currently has about 400 employees, compared with more than 1,000 in 1981. Meanwhile, the trade deficit with China exploded to $232 billion last year.

SEN. MARK PRYOR (D), ARKANSAS: The agency itself has withered on the vine. It has not been able to keep up, especially in the area of imports. And the Consumer Products Safety Commission today is just not equipped to handle the challenges in the U.S. economy.

ROMANS: Pryor is sponsoring the Consumer Product Safety Reform Act in 2007 in the Senate. It would allocate millions for a modern testing laboratory and toughen fines for companies that import dangerous products.

PRYOR: A lot of times what these companies do is, you know, when they see a fine -- a million dollar fine or whatever it may be, hey, that's just the cost of doing business.

ROMANS: The Senate legislation would dramatically increase civil penalties, now capped at $1.8 million.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: The acting chairwoman of the Consumer Products Safety Commission testified in the Senate panel Thursday, again defending her agency, saying the recalls show the system is keeping children safe. But in hearing after hearing, lawmakers from both sides of the aisle have said, Kitty, this agency needs a dramatic overhaul.

PILGRIM: There's ample evidence of that. Thanks very much, Christine Romans.

Well, now November/December are the biggest months for toy sales, accounting for as much as two-thirds of annual sales in the United States. Last year, toy sales totaled $22 billion. I talked to Ed Mierzwinski of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group about the problem, as well as Don Mays, who is senior director of product safety at Consumer Reports. Now the president of the Toy Industry Association and the chair of Consumer Product Safety Commission declined to appear on the program. First, I asked Don Mays if we're going to see more recalls.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON MAYS, CONSUMER REPORTS: Absolutely, we're going to see more recalls. This holiday season, consumers shouldn't be making a choice between leaded and unleaded toys. Retailers have to step up to the plate and make sure that all the toys that they put in the hands of children this holiday season are safe and free from lead hazards.

PILGRIM: Yes. Let me quote the Toy Industry Association -- an enormous Toy Fair going on in New York. We went over there and looked at everything, really got an eyeful.

And this what the Toy Industry Association president said to us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARTER KEITHLEY, TOY INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION: I think that we will see -- you know, continue to see a lot of product coming from China. The Chinese manufacturing operations, I've been through them, they're very good. What we have seen happen here is really, truly an aberration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Ed, do you buy that?

ED MIERZWINSKI, U.S. PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP: Well, American toy manufacturers are not testing the toys they get from China. They're ignoring safety rules and letting the bad toys get through. Consumers are scared.

PILGRIM: They certainly are. You know, Sherrod Brown of Ohio -- Congressman -- or Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio has talked about Halloween because this, of course, predates the Christmas season. And he has voiced concern about Halloween toys. You have a lot of toys that are very close to the face and the skin, masks and things. And is there a danger here? I mean, are we prepared enough for the season that's just around the corner, Don?

MAYS: Not really. I mean, we've been advocating that there needs to be more testing and inspection of products before they're shipped into this country. And now it's a matter of relying on the retailers to make sure that the toys that are being carried on the shelves are free of any hazards.

They have to step up to the plate here.

PILGRIM: And, Ed, what do you think about the preparedness of the upcoming season? I mean, presumably, everything has been manufactured already. It's on -- it's on -- being shipped from China, basically, at this point, isn't it? MIERZWINSKI: You know, it's in the big pipe coming from China. It's already here. It's in the toy stores. They're ready to roll it out. Consumers should take matters into their own hands. They should look at our Web site, toysafety.net, or Don's Web site, consumersunion.org, to find out more about what they can do to protect themselves.

But, absolutely, the toys have already been manufactured. The retailers are stepping up their inspections. But it's time for Congress to act.

PILGRIM: Well, yes. Let me follow up on this. They're about to reform the Consumer Product Safety Act. Do you believe that that will be sufficient?

MIERZWINSKI: Well, the Consumer Product Safety Act needs reform so they can go after corporate wrongdoers. They need to ban lead in everything, not just in paint. And they need to increase import inspections and hold companies accountable before they bring products over the U.S. line, that those products are guaranteed to meet U.S. safety standards. Absolutely, if they do all those three things, we're in better shape than we are now. But the manufactures have miserably failed to do their job.

PILGRIM: You know, Nancy Nord, the acting chairwoman of the Consumer Product Safety Commission, we have watched her on several occasions basically throw up her hands and say we don't have enough resources in sort of a hopeless manner. Do you think that's an abdication of responsibility? Do you think she really is very hard- pressed to fix this problem? What's going on here with the Consumer Product Safety Commission?

MAYS: Well, clearly, she's not stepping up to the plate the way that she needs to. The bill that's going to be discussed could provide more resources for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, which is desperately needed. They are woefully under staffed and under funded. It will provide more money for them to operate, more staffing and more authority, so they can take control of these 15,000 different types of products that they regulate.

PILGRIM: You know, Ed, you spoke about the retailers taking more responsibility. We heard a Mattel executive, a vice president, apologize to a Chinese official -- the chief of product safety.

What do you think about that apology?

MIERZWINSKI: Well, he apologized to the Chinese officials. China had some toys that contained lead paint. Mattel had some toys that had dangerous magnets that it had designed badly in America, even though they were manufactured over there. So I think he apologized for blaming them for the whole problem.

And that's not good enough. Sorry, doesn't work. Mattel has got to admit that it didn't do the job and its Chinese suppliers didn't do the job either. But when the rubber hits the road, it's Mattel's fault, not some third party contractor over there, when it comes into America.

And we'll be looking forward to Commissioner Nord's testimony. She has got to step away from this idea that it's unsolvable. It is solvable. She has got to demand help.

PILGRIM: You know, quite honestly, the commercial relationship between Mattel and their Chinese producers is irrelevant to a parent who is sitting there trying to decide which toy they're going to buy.

MAYS: That's right.

PILGRIM: This sort of dialogue between Mattel and China is not fixing the problem, is it, Don?

MAYS: That's exactly right. I mean they really need to make sure that they have the safety net in place through all steps of that supply chain. Initially, the problem was an issue where Mattel had entrusted the testing of the toys that were being manufactured to the very factory that was producing them.

Now, that's a lot like the fox guarding the hen house. They need to have independent, third party testing of the products and certification of those products, so that consumers can be assured that what they buy is safe it use for their children.

PILGRIM: Gentlemen, we are so glad that you're on this issue. And we thank you very much for bringing it to our attention and staying on it with us as we investigate this. Don Mays and Ed Mierzwinski, thank you very much.

MIERZWINSKI: Thank you, Kitty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Still to come tonight, we'll see who has the big money in the record-breaking fund-raising quest in the 2008 presidential race.

Also, the author of a bill setting national standards for drivers' licenses is dead set against New York State's plan to grant licenses to illegal aliens. He says the measure has some far-reaching consequences.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: The outcry over New York Governor Eliot Spitzer's plan to issue drivers' licenses to illegal aliens, that is intensifying. Most of New York State's county clerks who are in charge of the Department of Motor Vehicles say they don't want to violate federal law by issuing licenses to illegal aliens.

And Spitzer's plan also runs counter to a congressional law that mandates a national standard for drivers' licenses by 2009. This bill is called the Real ID and Congressman James Sensenbrenner is the author of it.

He talked with me about the real consequences of Spitzer's plan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: The effect of Governor Spitzer's proposal is to force every New Yorker who wishes to board a plane, get into a courthouse and maybe even open up a bank account under a federally ensured institution, to spend $97 to get a passport.

The Real ID Act is voluntary. States that comply have their driver's licenses be valid for federal identification purposes. States that don't comply -- and that apparently is the governor's plan, are forcing their citizens to get another form of federal ID so that they can use it for federal purposes, such as I described.

I think when the people of New York find out that all of them are going to have to spend almost $100 to get passports if they want to get on a plane, they will rise up in arms. And they should.

PILGRIM: Yes. That will definitely be a public backlash. And we're hearing quite an outcry now. There are eight states that currently don't require applicants to prove that they're legally in the country. That's Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah and Washington. New York used to have the absolute strictest standards for driver's licenses and, under Pataki, and they're rolling those back.

Do you think that New York State is regressing in terms of security for this country?

SENSENBRENNER: Well, obviously. And the 9/11 Commission recommended that we do something similar to Real ID because they pointed out that the 9/11 hijackers had a pocket full of drivers' licenses that were issued by a whole bunch of states. And they said very clearly that identification documents are as important to terrorists as explosives.

Now, listening to what Spitzer and his supporters are saying, there's a provision in the Real ID Act that allows states to issue driving permits to illegal immigrants, which are not valid for ID.

Now, if the governor wants to prevent people who are legally here with New York drivers' licenses from getting passports or other things, then he ought to use that part of the Real ID Act and issue illegal immigrants a driving permit that very clearly states on the face of the permit that it is not valid for federal ID purposes.

PILGRIM: That would seem to be a reasonable way to go. This is what Governor Spitzer said about the 9/11 Commission, who recommended the Real ID Act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ELIOT SPITZER (D), NEW YORK: As we've seen, 9/11 has been the excuse for so much bad policy. Yet some have called on it one more time to strike fear in the public consciousness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Tamper-proof identification seems like a pretty sensible judgment in the wake of 9/11. And yet you have Governor Spitzer criticizing that decision.

SENSENBRENNER: Well, of all the people who shouldn't be criticizing that decision, it should be the governor of the state that suffered the biggest losses in 9/11. Now, this commission was a bipartisan commission. And, as a matter of fact, one of the first bills the Democrats in Congress passed H.R. 1, was to, as they said, fully implement the provisions of the 9/11 Commission report.

Evidently the governor of New York hasn't got the message from his Democratic colleagues down here in Washington.

PILGRIM: Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, thank you very much for coming on the program to talk about a critical issue to this country. Thank you, sir.

SENSENBRENNER: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Coming up, is Republican presidential hopeful John McCain staging a comeback? We'll ask our political panel next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: Joining me now are three of this country's best political analyst. We have Errol Louis with The New York Daily News; syndicated columnist Miguel Perez; and from Washington, D.C., we are joined by Diana West with The Washington Times.

Thanks for being here with us. The president is not doing well in the polls, neither is Congress. Congress is actually doing worse. Let's take a look at the latest AP/Ipsos poll. Job approval ratings: Bush, 31 percent, Congress 22 percent. It has been a fairly bruising week for the president with quite a few issues.

Miguel, what do you think about these approval ratings?

MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: I'm not surprised. I think it's very significant that Congress is doing so poorly because Congress, we had high expectations in the last election.

And, you know, gave the Democrats a majority and nothing happened. So I think, you know, people are down on the president because we already know that the president is not doing well. But we expected a lot more from the Congress and the Congress has not materialized.

PILGRIM: Highly unpopular war, Diana, but do you think there are other things are factoring into this disapproval of Congress?

DIANA WEST, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: Well, things don't seem to improve week to week, do they? The thing that really fascinates me about the numbers is that Bush is higher than Congress, which suggests to me that there is disapproval of the Democratic Party.

It seems like there's not -- as Miguel was saying, there was hope for that Congress that has really crashed and burned. And that just seems to keep the whole presidential election a little more interesting to me because it doesn't seem like there's one side that is really getting traction.

PILGRIM: You know, so many of the issues in the country these days are basic issues that impact American families. The SCHIP battle for children's health care this week was a particularly difficult battle on Capitol Hill, especially for the president.

And Errol, let's just listen to what the president had to say about it and then we'll get your comments on it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The policies of the government ought to be to help people find private insurance, not federal coverage. And that's what the philosophical divide comes in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ERROL LOUIS, THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: I think the philosophical divide is he in that same speech slammed the idea of this expanded insurance as a new middle class entitlement. And I was watching and I said, well, what's wrong with the middle class entitlement? I mean, this is the broad middle of the country that needs to take care of their children.

If you add a war to that, failure on an immigration bill, possibly upwards of 2 million people facing foreclosure and no action out of the Congress or out of the White House and then something like this, it's not that hard to see why the approval ratings are so low.

PILGRIM: Democrats need about 15 to 20 votes in the House to override the presidential veto. Why can't Democrats override this veto? That's the problem, if they're so strongly committed to this.

LOUIS: Well, it was never that clear to me that they were strongly committed to it. In fact, quite frankly there were some shenanigans with the way the thing was sold, price tag on it really was finagled.

It might only cost $35 billion or so. But it falls off a cliff after a couple of years and the price starts to soar. And they really weren't up front with the public about that. Just another case, as with immigration, where the true cost, the true facts really weren't explored and shared with the public. And to that extent, the institution I think can be held accountable.

PILGRIM: Miguel?

PEREZ: When you have a government, a president spending so much money on the war and he's turning around and saying the children cannot have health insurance, it's outrageous. And I think the Democrats are going to get a lot of mileage out of that. Diana was talking about, and I need to go back to that. She was talking about how the low polls for the Congress now may reflect the presidential elections. I don't think so because the Republican Party is disintegrating.

PILGRIM: Well, we'll get into the elections and the polls in a minute.

PEREZ: For many, many reasons they're disintegrating.

PILGRIM: The other thing -- go ahead, Diana. You want to respond to that?

WEST: I would say there's disintegration all around. But I think that, again, this is the, you know, I haven't been agreeing very much with President Bush myself lately. But on the SCHIP, it definitely does come down to an expansion of government versus the private sector.

And when you look at the way this thing is supposed to be financed with on the backs of cigarette taxes, I heard a study out of the conservative Heritage Foundation that said we had to get 22 million new smokers to finance this bill, which is very funny, finagling, as Errol said.

So this is not a straightforward bill. It's not a straightforward issue because, as I understand it, children who don't have health insurance and do have catastrophic problems are already covered under Medicaid.

PILGRIM: It is a difficult issue to sort out because it's so much spin on this entire issue. We're going to come back in a minute, to the presidential campaigns, which are fascinating this week. And we'll have more of our round-table ahead, so stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PILGRIM: We're back with our roundtable. Here in the studio with me are Errol Louis of The New York Daily News; and syndicated columnist Miguel Perez; joining us from Washington, Diana West with The Washington Times.

While we were talking polls and the president and Congress, we might as well go to the election polls. Democratic choice for president - this is the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll: Clinton 53 percent; Obama 20 percent; and Edwards 13 percent.

And the thing that's interesting is that Clinton raised $27 million in the last quarter. And that really beat Barack Obama, who raised $20 million since July. So she's really pulling ahead in fund- raising and pulling ahead in the polls. Her strength is considerable.

Miguel, do you think that it's a done deal at this point?

PEREZ: I've been saying it all along. It's for her to lose and it doesn't look like she's going to. You know, the rest of the Democrats right now are not criticizing her enough, I don't think. It's because some of them are really run for vice president, in my opinion. So they don't really want to step out there. But, you know, she has got it.

PILGRIM: Well, the other thing is that perhaps there is a little bit of cohesion because they're so far ahead no one wants to upset the apple cart -- Diana.

WEST: I think Miguel is right, I think there is a big race for vice president going on although I doubt it's going to be those two fellows.

PILGRIM: Let's look at Republicans. Did you want to weigh in on Democrats, Errol?

LOUIS: Just to say that it's going to make Iowa that much more of a hotly contested race. That first primary, the three front- runners are all within a couple of points of one another and it won't do Barack Obama to have $79 million if he gets blown out in the first three states. So we should look for him to make a big, big push in Iowa. Edwards is going to do the same. He has been strong in Iowa all along.

PILGRIM: Iowa is going to be fascinating, we'll be glued to that. Let's look at Republicans. Again, ABC News/Washington Post poll: Giuliani, 34 percent; Thompson, 17 percent; McCain 12 percent.

McCain has been an interesting dynamic lately. Miguel, what do you think of McCain's progress?

PEREZ: I'm impressed and I hope he keeping going because of all of them, he's the one that -- I've always said that he's the one that I like best. Unfortunately you know, the immigration issue and his position on the war hasn't helped him very much. But he's my candidate. As far as the Republicans are concerned, you know, he's my hope.

PILGRIM: All right. Diana?

WEST: Well, he's, you know, he's hoping that slow and steady wins the race. I don't think so. I think again we're looking at our front-runners at this point.

PILGRIM: OK.

LOUIS: It's almost ancient history now but back in 2000, McCain blew out George Bush on the New Hampshire primary by upwards of 20 or 30 points, I think. And he's looking to try and make that magic happen again. So we'll see if he can pull it off.

PILGRIM: Yes, I guess that is ancient history, but thanks for reminding us all. Let's talk about Rudy Giuliani. He was in Philadelphia. This is a topic that we enjoy and he went to the shop that posted the sign about speak English when you're ordering. It was a pizza shop, I believe. And he has always said that you should be able to -- he says, no, you should be able to read, write and speak English. He -- when he was mayor of New York, he had a much softer position on some of these issues with recent immigrants and his positions have definitely softened. Miguel?

PEREZ: He is obviously playing to the people who are insecure about language, who think that Latinos are trying to take over when it's totally false. And I wasn't very happy to see him doing that. Frankly, if Rudy Giuliani keeps going back and forth trying to please both sides, then he's not doing a good job of it.

PILGRIM: Immigration is a tough issue. Illegal immigration is probably one of the toughest issue of this campaign. Diana, do you think treading a line on this is advisable?

WEST: Treading a line?

PILGRIM: Yes.

WEST: You mean in terms of not quite going one way or the other?

PILGRIM: Right.

WEST: Oh, I think it's ill advised. I think that this is the big issue that could bring out a solid Republican base. It was very important all summer long with Republicans to fix the border, to get hold of the whole illegal immigration issue. And if Rudy Giuliani does not do that or any of the candidates do, I don't think they'll find solid support in the primaries.

PILGRIM: Yes, a lot of candidates are trying to find their footing on this, Errol.

LOUIS: You can hardly recognize this as the same man who was mayor of New York for eight years. These positions are diametrically opposite. I don't know if the candidates -- his opponents are going to make much out of it, but this isn't softening. This is transformation.

PILGRIM: All right.

PEREZ: And a lot of people are feeling betrayed because of it.

PILGRIM: Well, we make most of it. OK, Errol Louis, Miguel Perez, Diana West, thanks very much.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow when Lou will be back. We appreciate your well-wishes and continued support. And Lou is looking forward to a great week. For all of us here, thanks for watching, have a great week. Good night from New York.

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