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Lou Dobbs This Week
Mattel and Recent Toy Recalls; Illegal Aliens and Licenses; Comparing Candidates
Aired October 13, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, new charges the world's biggest toy brand, Mattel, failed to protect Americans from dangerous imports. Did Mattel's executives put their profits and their incomes ahead of consumer safety?
And a bipartisan rebellion escalates in New York. Lawmakers are furious with Eliot Spitzer's plan to favor illegal aliens at the expense of U.S. citizens and legal residents. All that, much more, straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK, news, debate and opinion for Saturday, October 13th. Here now, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.
The Bush White House and Congress tonight are facing a showdown over children's health insurance and warrantless wiretaps. President Bush is refusing to agree to an expansion of the so-called S-CHIP health program for children. At the same time, the president says he won't sign any new warrantless wiretap bill that, in his opinion, fails to protect Americans from terrorists.
Jessica Yellin has more from Capitol Hill. Jessica, are there any signs of compromise by anyone in the battle over children's health insurance?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, in a word, no. Democrats think that this S-CHIP fight is a winning one for them. They think it's sound policy and the politics are all in their favor, because they can go out and say that they're on the side of working families and children and, look at the Republicans, they're not.
Well, obviously, the issue isn't that simple, but when you reduce it down to a sound bite in an ad, it does convey well for the Democrats. They're running ads all over the country. And Nancy Pelosi says she's compromised as much as she's going to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, I haven't had any overture from the White House on what they might consider an appropriate next step. What I do know is that, in the House, we compromised from a $90 billion bill to a $35 billion bill in order to have bipartisanship and to have it pass the United States Senate.
(END VIDEO CLIP) YELLIN: Now, Republicans in the House feel very differently. Many of them, the moderates in swing districts especially, are feeling enormous amount of pressure. There is talk behind closed doors here that they're frustrated that their own leadership has made them take this uncomfortable vote, where it looks like maybe they're voting against children's health insurance. Republicans are pushing for a compromise, but they're just not going to get it.
PILGRIM: Jessica, how about the wiretapping issue? Now, the president obviously doesn't like the Democrats' proposal, so why are the Democrats picking a fight on national security? This is an issue that's been a loser for them in the past.
YELLIN: Absolutely right. And there are two reasons. One is because Democrats promised to try to change current law. Many civil libertarians are angry over the law. They say it gives the government too broad powers, and they want it changed. And Democrats know they'll be accused of reneging on their promise if they don't make this fight.
And then they also say new polls show that they're tied with the president when it comes to national security, that Americans trust Democrats and the president about equally to protect them from terrorism. So the Democrats do think they have a leg to stand on. But just this week, the president essentially warned that he could veto this bill if Democrats deliver it to him as is.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Jessica Yellin, congressional correspondent.
President Bush is also struggling to sell Congress his so-called free trade agenda. The president wants lawmakers to pass free trade agreements with Peru, Panama and Columbia, but critics say the president is ignoring rising concern in this country about dangerous imports and the export of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.
Ed Henry, who traveled with the president to Florida, has our report -- Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, this president is looking for a legacy beyond Iraq. That's why he's trying to cobble together these relatively small trade deals and try to build an economic legacy. But the big question, as you noted, is whether this is going to be a positive or negative legacy for the president, pushing globalization so much.
As you know, many Democrats, some Republicans even in his own party, are deeply skeptical of this agenda. They feel that these trade pacts are not really helping workers, and a lot of American jobs are being lost. That's why the president came here to Miami, tried to deal with those allegations, those charges head-on. And he urged Americans not to become isolationist or protectionist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... where the opportunities to succeed is as real in Lima as it is in Los Angeles, in Bogota as it is in Boston, for the opportunity for people to realize dreams is just as real in Panama City, Panama, as it is in Panama City, Florida.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: But the president has an uphill battle trying to get these trade deals through a Democratic Congress. Even if he does get them through the Congress, they could face a lot of skepticism, a lot of scrutiny from the next president, whether it's a Democrat or a Republican.
If you look at the top-tier Republican presidential candidates, like Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, they're mostly with President Bush on free trade. But the second-tier candidates, people like Congressman Duncan Hunter, call these "junk trade deals." And on the Democratic side, you have the front-runner, Senator Hillary Clinton, saying that, if she's elected, she will even scrutinize NAFTA, the signature trade deal of her husband's administration. It gives you an idea of how this trade issue has really turned -- Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Ed Henry. Thanks, Ed.
Well, the White House tonight faces rising questions about its treatment of military veterans. President Bush so far has not announced his successor to Veterans Affairs Secretary Jim Nicholson. Now, some veterans believe that the Bush administration no longer considers them to be a priority. Barbara Starr reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a line President Bush used before the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention in August.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Veterans deserve the full support of our government, and that's what you're going to get as George W. Bush as your president.
STARR: But three months after Jim Nicholson announced his resignation as secretary of Veterans Affairs, the White House hasn't even nominated a replacement. Congress and the White House haven't agreed on the $87 billion 2008 budget for the Veterans Department, and the backlog in disability claims has skyrocketed to 600,000.
With two wars raging, disabled veterans are particularly upset with the president and Congress.
JOSEPH VIOLANTE, THE DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS: Well, certainly it's showing us that veterans are not a national priority at this time. We're at war. We're making new sick and disabled veterans every day. And we don't have a secretary of V.A. in place.
STARR: The American Legion worries Iraqi war veterans, many with post-traumatic stress, are suffering from lack of health care.
STEVE ROBERTSON, THE AMERICAN LEGION: A lot of this money was targeted towards hiring PTSD counselors.
STARR: Gordon Mansfield, the current acting secretary, is widely supported by veterans groups to get the top job. Paralyzed in the Vietnam War, Mansfield is said to be an expert in V.A. bureaucracy. But there's no indication when the White House might move on the nomination and when Congress might agree on a veterans spending bill.
And veterans say, once again, they are being sacrificed by Washington insiders.
VIOLANTE: And the holdup, I think, has to do with politics that's being played between the White House and Congress. We would like to see politics taken out of the veteran arena.
STARR (on screen): The crisis in veterans care is likely to only grow. Already, nearly a quarter-million veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are receiving V.A. benefits.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still to come, new charges that Mattel failed to protect Americans from dangerous Chinese toys. Christine Romans will have the report -- Christine?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, a Michigan pension fund is suing Mattel, saying the company has a history of putting sales ahead of safety, enriching executives and the board -- Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks, Christine. That story's coming up.
Also, possibly the most serious warning so far about the threat to Americans from dangerous imports from communist China.
Also, police officers in one of the country's biggest cities rebel against their leaders on the issue of illegal immigration. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Congressional investigators have delivered shocking news about dangerous food imports from communist China. The investigators told lawmakers on Capitol Hill about a nationwide system of unsafe food production in China, and that food will end up on your dinner table. There's very little chance it will be inspected once it reaches American shores.
Lisa Sylvester reports on the explosive testimony at a congressional hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Food from China presents a clear and present danger to Americans, that according to congressional investigators who visited the country in August.
DAVID NELSON, COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE: I don't think anybody knowledgeable about the system can say the Chinese food supply is safe.
SYLVESTER: China has hundreds of millions of private farms. The committee report found that the Chinese government has minimal ability to monitor them and the food they produced. The U.S. government isn't doing a much better job. The FDA inspects fewer than 1 percent of imported food products. By comparison, Japan inspects 15 percent.
There are 321 ports of entry into the United States. FDA inspectors are at fewer than a third of them. And the FDA does not require food products from China to be certified as safe, even though other countries only use importers that have a certification, a label given to Chinese farms and processors that have been inspected and audited.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if you are not certifying, we're only inspecting 1 percent of the food coming into this country, we are not giving the American people very safe, then, are we?
DR. DAVID ACHESON, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER FOR FOOD PROTECTION, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: We recognize we have got challenges. We recognize we need to make changes and we need a new approach.
SYLVESTER: Food companies in China that use private labs to test their products are not obligated to report their findings to U.S. regulators, even if the food is tainted or contaminated. And the FDA does not have authorization to inspect an importer firsthand.
MARGARET GLAVIN, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: We don't have the authority to mandate a foreign -- inspection of a foreign firm if they choose not to have us come.
REP. MICHAEL BURGESS (R), TEXAS: As we sit up on this dais, attempting to assure the American people we're providing oversight, we have really got no mechanism to go back and check that. Clearly, it seems to me that's a gaping hole that has got to be closed.
SYLVESTER: The FDA says it is working on recommendations on how to fix these problems which it expects to release in the coming weeks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Food and Drug Administration says it does not have the authority to exclude Chinese importers who do not have the safety certification. The agency says that requires congressional action. And the FDA also said they don't have regulatory authority over the private labs that companies hire to do their own food testing.
At one point, Louisiana Congressman Charlie Melancon said he was tired of hearing all the excuses from the FDA, saying the government has a great agency for that with FEMA -- Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Well, Mattel, the world's largest toy brand, faces a lawsuit filed by its shareholders. Mattel already has recalled more than 20 million of the Chinese-made toys this year. And now a shareholder lawsuit says Mattel postponed telling regulators about those product defects. As Christine Romans now reports, the lawsuit alleges Mattel profited from the strategy at the expense of children and consumer safety.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Its brand is already battered after recalls of millions of potentially dangerous toys. Now Mattel faces a shareholder lawsuit filed today in a Delaware court.
Shareholder attorney Jay Eisenhofer says Mattel misled investors.
JAY EISENHOFER, ATTORNEY: Mattel has got a history of these types of problems, and there should be policies and procedures in place to make sure that these types of things are not happening. How do you have lead in your toys that is 180 times the legal limit?
ROMANS: The suit also alleges Mattel for 10 years has delayed reporting faulty products to the government, repeatedly violating federal law. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is investigating the timing of Mattel's tainted toy disclosures. By law, defects must be reported within 24 hours. Mattel would not comment.
Mattel's Fisher-Price brand was fined $975,000 for failing for months to report a defect on a popular farm toy. Mattel first learned of the problem in September 2002. Three months later, a baby underwent lung surgery after inhaling a piece of the toy. Mattel did not report the flaw to the government until March 2003.
Six years ago, Mattel was fined a record $1.1 million for waiting months to report that its Fisher-Price Power Wheels toys caused 116 fires, $300,000 in property damage, and at least nine minor burns in children. Then, CPSC chairman Ann Brown blasted the company, quote, "Fisher-Price knew about hundreds of problems with its Power Wheels, yet did nothing for years. Failing to report product defects will not be tolerated."
Fisher-Price paid the fine, but denied the allegations.
In this more recent safety scandal, Mattel has apologized to Congress...
ROBERT ECKERT, CHAIRMAN & CEO, MATTEL: We were let down and we let you down.
ROMANS: ... and to the Chinese, saying Mattel's own design flaws had damaged China's reputation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Now, this lawsuit claims investors have also suffered. They have lost 20 percent of their stock value since the scandals broke. According to the suit, in the months leading up to Mattel's recalls, insiders sold $33 million worth of Mattel stock. The Securities and Exchange Commission, when we asked them about this, said they do not comment on investigations or on litigation. But this is the kind of thing that tends to get the attention of regulators, Kitty.
PILGRIM: You know, Christine, these shareholder lawsuits are on thing. There's consumer lawsuits, also. And, you know, as one person put it, Mattel saying sorry isn't going to be enough when you're talking about these lawsuits.
ROMANS: Some of these lawsuits, they want Mattel to pay for the lead testing, the blood lead testing, maybe even pay for the blood lead kits. They want Mattel to pay for the hospitalization or the treatment for children, perhaps, who have had these toys. So you're seeing more and more, at least 10 consumer suits. This is the first shareholder suit I've seen.
PILGRIM: The toxic effects of lead, there are no lead levels that are acceptable in children, and the toxic effects of lead are very well-documented. It is a measurable thing. It's not something that will be left up to a jury to interpret.
ROMANS: Right.
PILGRIM: There is a numerical number on...
ROMANS: Learning disabilities, mental retardation, lower I.Q. The problem is you might not notice these things until well after the exposure. That's why it's so concerning to parents who might have some of these toys in their toy boxes. It could be a long time before they notice if there are any ill effects.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Christine Romans. Thanks, Christine.
The Food and Drug Administration has approved a new generic drug made in communist China, even though it can't guarantee the safety of Chinese imports in this country. Now, this is the first time a Chinese manufacturer has been granted FDA approval to export a generic drug to the United States.
Communist China already supplies most of the ingredients used in medications made in this country. The pharmaceutical industry says manufacturers in China supply half of the ingredients for prescription and over-the-counter drugs in the United States.
Coming up, the battle escalates over the New York governor's plan to give illegal aliens drivers' licenses. We'll have a special report.
And rank-and-file police officers fight their leaders on the issue of illegal immigration. We'll have a report on the widening rift in one of the nation's largest police departments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A rift between rank-and-file police officers and their leaders is widening in Arizona. Police officers are fed up because they're not allowed to report some illegal aliens to immigration agents. Now, this revolt is happening during a crime wave by illegal aliens. Casey Wian reports on a case of law and disorder.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The union representing 2,200 Phoenix police officers overwhelmingly supports changing department policy to permit officers to report more illegal aliens to federal immigration authorities.
Seventy seven percent of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association's members disagreed with their department's current policy. It prevents officers from contacting Immigration and Customs Enforcement about suspected illegal aliens involved in misdemeanors or traffic violations. The union cites examples such as one officer's recent encounter with four males in a vehicle. According to the officer, there was a gun in the car. Only the driver produced I.D., a paycheck with a phony Social Security number.
MARK SPENCER, PRESIDENT, PHOENIX LAW ENFORCEMENT ASSOCIATION: It all indicated they're in the country illegally. The department's response, do not contact ICE. Let them go. So I've got four male occupants who can't speak English, who can't provide I.D. in a vehicle with a weapon, and my officer is not able to contact ICE. That doesn't make sense.
WIAN: Arizona police chiefs say legal barriers and scarce resources prevent expanded cooperation with ICE.
RALPH TRANTER, ARIZONA ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE: Immigration enforcement is an unfunded responsibility that will compete with other law enforcement priorities at a critical juncture in Arizona's attempt to fight serious and violent crime.
WIAN: Other Arizona law enforcement officials disagree, pointing out local police help the feds investigate bank robberies, narcotics trafficking, and counterfeiting, all federal crimes.
JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA, SHERIFF: I don't go around complaining that we don't have the resources. We manage our resources properly and we enforce all the laws. And this is just a cop-out, a cop-out. They're illegal. They came across that border. They broke the law. They're breaking the law every minute they're here.
WIAN: The police union also cites last month's killing of fellow officer Nick Erfle, gunned down by an illegal alien gang member who had been deported to Mexico, reentered the United States and was in Scottsdale police custody earlier this year. ICE says Erfle's killer probably would not have been released on bail if ICE had been notified he was in police custody. (END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The Phoenix police union says it does not want officers to become federal immigration agents. It's only asking for what it calls reasonable access to federal tools that are already available -- Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Casey Wian. Thanks, Casey.
A federal judge blocked a federal government plan that would crack down on employers who hire illegal aliens. Now, the decision temporarily stops the Department of Homeland Security from sending letters warning employers of penalties if they keep employees whose Social Security numbers don't match. Now, approximately 8 million workers could have been identified as having discrepancies.
Coming up, the state of Texas tells President Bush to stop abusing his power in the death penalty conviction of an illegal alien Mexican for the brutal rape and murder of two teenaged girls.
Plus, will a Nobel Peace Prize spark an Al Gore run for the White House?
And growing outrage over New York's governor's plan to grant drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TONY HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris. Here's what's happening right now in the news.
A bad scene north of Los Angeles. Two big rigs smashed into each other late last night in a trucks-only tunnel. The explosions, the fire, the chain-reaction crashes, the nightmarish traffic backup, it is still an ongoing emergency.
This is what it looked like shortly after it happened. Two people were killed. Firefighters filled the tunnel with foam to try to cool things down. We are expecting an update in the coming hours.
What to do if Turkey slams the door on its airspace? It could happen. The Pentagon is working on alternatives in case Turkey decides to shut down cargo and supply flights from bases there into Iraq. The Turkish government threatened to do it after congressional moves to label as genocide the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in World War I.
The Empire State Building is green this weekend to honor the Muslim celebrating marking the end of Ramadan. The 102-story building is routinely lit up for traditional holidays and sporting events, but this is the first time the lighting has been done for an Islamic holiday.
Those are the headlines this hour. Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news. PILGRIM: The opposition keeps growing in New York state against Governor Eliot Spitzer's proposal to issue drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. Some lawmakers are calling for the Department of Homeland Security to intervene and stop the governor from implementing his plan.
As Bill Tucker reports, concern over voter fraud is fueling much of this concern.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York's governor and the majority leader of its state senate are squaring off over the issue of drivers' licenses for illegal aliens. State Senator Joe Bruno vows to do anything he can to stop the governor's plan before it's implemented, and he says he has the support of many Democrats.
JOSEPH BRUNO (R), NEW YORK STATE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: It is not a partisan issue in any way. It's not political. It's just plain wrong. Governor Spitzer is wrong. He is rewarding people who break the law who are illegally in this country. It's dangerous. It's anti-security. It's fraud just waiting to happen.
TUCKER: On October 22nd, the state senate will take up legislation that would require applicants for a drivers' license or non-driver identification card to have a Social Security number or proof of authorized presence in the United States, which would undo the governor's executive order.
Non-driver identification cards and drivers' licenses issued to illegal aliens will look exactly the same as those issued to legal residents and citizens. And that has many in the state worried about possible voter fraud.
MARK SMITH, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY: In New York, like in most other states -- in fact, almost all states -- when you apply for a drivers' license, you're also essentially handed an application to register to vote. Certainly in New York, that is the way that it works.
TUCKER: The governor's office responds by noting that all people registering to vote must swear under penalty of imprisonment and fine that they are citizens of the United States. The state has also stopped issuing drivers' licenses and I.D. cards for temporary residents which note their temporary status along with the expiration date of their visa.
Ironically, citizens will still have to provide a Social Security number to be granted a drivers' license or I.D. card.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TUCKER: And it's not clear exactly what will be accepted for illegal aliens. Foreign passports, matricula consulars, and parole papers, unbelievably, are being discussed as acceptable forms of I.D. And, Kitty, this story is far from over. PILGRIM: Parole papers, that really takes the cake, Bill, I have to say.
TUCKER: It does.
PILGRIM: It battle is about to continue, heated battle next week, correct?
TUCKER: Oh, yes, Senate hearing next week on Monday. We will be there to cover it. It will be covering the national security implications of this. It will be looking at the impact on law enforcement. What happens when New York state gives not only drivers' licenses to illegal aliens, but issues non-driver identification cards to illegal aliens, and, remember, makes no distinction, no difference between a citizen and a legal resident and an illegal alien?
PILGRIM: Unbelievable. Thanks very much, Bill Tucker, thank you.
Republican State Senator Martin Golden is a co-sponsor of the legislation that would block Governor Spitzer's plan to give those licenses to illegal aliens. Democratic State Senator Jose Serrano is a staunch supporter of the governor's proposal. Now, Senator Serrano says giving licenses to illegal aliens actually makes New York and the country a whole lot safer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSE SERRANO (D), NEW YORK STATE SENATE: Well, The Real I.D. Act, as you know, Lou, has -- will not take effect until 2013...
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Full effect. Full effect.
SERRANO: ... and the criteria for Real I.D. -- the New York state drivers' license never fulfilled that criteria even before this plan. Actually, none of the drivers' licenses throughout this country reach that criteria. So that's a whole different issue. But as far as making it safer, it guarantees that we have more qualified drivers on the road. It gives us the opportunity to have more insured motorists on the road.
DOBBS: Senator Golden?
MARTIN GOLDEN (R), NEW YORK STATE SENATE: I can't believe the statements that we're hearing from the Democratic side here in the State of New York. Seventy percent of this great nation believes it's wrong. And I'm surprised it's not higher than that.
We have illegals coming in here, and it's not the concern of the illegals that are coming into this state that I'm concerned about. It's the terrorism that's coming in. Those cells that are being set up here in this state and across this nation.
We are giving the gold standard -- the New York state license is the gold license for across this nation. And we're giving that out. You can buy a gun, buy a home, rent an apartment, lease a car. You can get credit cards. You can transfer funds. That is the key...
DOBBS: Well, let me...
SERRANO: Well...
GOLDEN: ... and we can't allow that to happen.
DOBBS: Go ahead, Senator.
SERRANO: There is no correlation between immigration and terrorism. And we really need to stop continuing to make that argument. The truth of the matter is that most immigrants are here to build this nation and to work hard for their families. What we need to do to stop terrorism is to go after those who would wish to do harm to this nation, not just have a blanket approach to all immigrants. Having a drivers' license is not an immigration document.
DOBBS: Wait a minute, you said don't have a blanket approach to all immigrants?
SERRANO: Well, when it comes to this issue, it's very...
DOBBS: Why in the world would we not want to have a uniform...
SERRANO: There should be different policies...
DOBBS: ... an absolutely uniform policy on all immigration into this country?
SERRANO: Well, it can't be a blanket approach where we accuse all immigrants of being here for the wrong reasons or here to do harm to this nation.
GOLDEN: He didn't say that.
SERRANO: That's the blanket approach that I'm against.
DOBBS: OK. So you -- it's not a blanket approach you're against, you just don't want what?
SERRANO: I want there to be drivers' licenses for immigrants in this state.
DOBBS: OK. There is no doubt in the mind of anyone that we've spoken with that there is a fundamental and deepening concern right now across this country that there is a systematic attempt being made to bring illegal aliens into voter registration in this country before 2008.
Now, that drivers' license is a requirement, is it not?
SERRANO: No. And it never was. Just like you don't need a domestic license to get on a domestic flight, and you should know that, Senator.
DOBBS: Well, let's get to this, because this really where we're headed. Governor Spitzer says, for him, it's a matter of morality and practicality. I think it's interesting that the governor finds it easier to be moral when it's practical; I don't know precisely what his answers will be when morality is impractical.
But the fact is that this state is making it easier for illegal aliens -- here illegally, who violated law -- to continue to break law, that is, to continue to be here illegal. Why should the state of New York take a unilateral action that it would not take in the enforcement of immigration laws to make it easier for people here illegally?
SERRANO: The truth of the matter, Lou, is that immigrants are here. They're part of this nation. They're part of this state. And unless every...
DOBBS: When you say immigrants, let's be very clear, because that's a specious, if you will, diffusion of meaning. And you know that, don't you, Senator?
SERRANO: No.
DOBBS: We're talking about illegal immigrants, aren't we? Are we talking about illegal immigrants...
SERRANO: Well...
DOBBS: Or are we talking about all immigrants?
SERRANO: Well, immigrants can be out of status...
DOBBS: Let's talk about illegal.
SERRANO: OK.
DOBBS: Let's talk about illegal.
SERRANO: OK.
DOBBS: So -- because I don't want you to get confused or anyone at all on this issue.
SERRANO: OK. So undocumented immigrants are here. And they were...
DOBBS: Why can't you say illegal?
SERRANO: Because they're undocumented.
DOBBS: Undocumented? I've seen all sorts of documents.
SERRANO: We can mince words.
DOBBS: They're all...
SERRANO: We can mince words...
DOBBS: No, no, no...
SERRANO: But the truth of the matter is...
DOBBS: We're not mincing words. They're illegal.
SERRANO: ... illegal, undocumented, out of status...
DOBBS: Yes, right.
SERRANO: We know what we're talking about.
DOBBS: Yes.
SERRANO: And the truth of the matter is that they're here...
DOBBS: Now we know what we're talking about.
GOLDEN: Yes, we do.
SERRANO: And they work very hard in this state. And many of them who don't have drivers' licenses are forced...
DOBBS: But, Senator, I couldn't agree with you more. Most illegal immigrants in this country are good, hard-working people who are here because of economic circumstance, and, frankly, are here because they have been attracted here by the prospect of illegal employers offering them jobs -- and in contravention of U.S. law.
Why is it the impulse of the State Senate of New York to aid and abet those unlawful employers and to continue to permit the perpetuation of an absolute breakdown of law in this country?
SERRANO: A drivers' license is not an immigration document. It is verification that you have...
DOBBS: Then why are you restricting this discussion to illegal immigrants who would be receiving such documents?
SERRANO: Because currently they...
DOBBS: Why are you doing that?
SERRANO: Because currently they can't get it.
DOBBS: You can't have it both ways, Senator. Come on. We're getting so close to talking truth...
SERRANO: And it would mean a savings of $120 million for insured motorists in this state.
DOBBS: All right.
GOLDEN: The Motor Voter. With the Motor Voter turnaround, you've just got to show your license. You say you don't need a license. Motor Voter is show your license, register to vote, go in and vote. When you do you figure it out that person has already voted, by the time you figure out that that person is illegal?
SERRANO: Even...
GOLDEN: That's vote already in and counted. And here's what the commission said. The 9/11 Commission said secure identification should begin in the United States. Do you know why they said that? And it also said that the federal government should set standards of issuance for sources of identification...
DOBBS: Why should the State Senate of New York -- the great state of New York -- be offering documents to people in this country illegally rather than standing up for law and order?
SERRANO: Because it's better than keeping our heads in the sand.
DOBBS: Ah.
SERRANO: We have uninsured...
DOBBS: Then why don't you (INAUDIBLE)...
SERRANO: ... unlicensed...
DOBBS: Then why don't you...
SERRANO: ... motorists on the road, and they need to have licenses so that they can buy insurance and they can do what they need to do. It's a...
GOLDEN: What about the millions that waited to get into this country? What about them? What do we tell those individuals that waited to come into our country legally?
DOBBS: Senator Golden, Senator Serrano, we thank you both.
GOLDEN: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Appreciate it, gentlemen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Up next, the state of Texas accuses President Bush of abusing his power in the case of an illegal alien convicted of raping and killing two teenagers. We'll have Lou's conversation with two Texas lawmakers, next.
And later, flip-flopper, dud, some harsh words from the GOP candidates from a former Bush White House official. Three of the best political analysts in the country will join us for that and all the week's biggest political stories.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Supreme Court heard arguments over the death penalty conviction of an illegal alien from Mexico in the brutal rape and murder of two teenage girls in Texas. Now, this case is unusual and extremely controversial because it involves President Bush.
The president wants to stop the execution of the Mexican national. And now many critics say the president may be abusing the power of his office. Two Republican congressmen, Ted Poe and Michael McCaul, both of Texas, say the president is overstepping his jurisdiction.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. TED POE (R), TEXAS: Well, Lou, it seems it me that under the separation of powers, the president does not have any authority over any court to tell them what to do. And the highest court in Texas recently ruled, in all respect to the president, that he has no jurisdiction in this matter at all. And that's why this case is before the Supreme Court.
And certainly, the U.S. Constitution takes precedent over international law, and especially in this specific case, and the case should, obviously, be upheld by the Supreme Court.
DOBBS: Congressman McCaul, your thoughts?
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: Well, you know, basically you have the president who does not make the laws. The Congress makes the laws of the United States.
And if the idea of a federal or, I'm sorry, a foreign tribunal interfering in the argument, that somehow they can preempt U.S. or state law in the United States is a direct attack on our sovereignty in this nation. And I believe that the high court will prevail in our way of thinking in the end.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both. Both of you attorneys, judges, prosecutors, as a former Texas attorney general, Texas Supreme Court justice, Senator John Cornyn today, he gave us this statement on this case, and I want to hear your reaction to it.
This is what he said: "The president's attempt to interfere with state law exceeds the Constitution's limits on his power and, if allowed, would set a dangerous precedent."
We are watching, in your expressions, as two Republican congressmen from the state of Texas, Senator Cornyn from the state of Texas, what is this president, in your judgment, giving him at the outside, very best interpretation, what in the world could he be thinking?
POE: Well, I think that he believes that the World Court was correct, and so he took it upon his own initiative to order the state of Texas to review this case, to retry him, maybe. And of course, in my opinion, he doesn't have that authority. If the president has the authority to go into a state court and tell them what to do, that gives the president unlimited power, not just this president, but any president after him.
So I think that's where the separation of powers issue comes in. This is a judicial decision. The defendant never asked for a consulate. And so I think that this will be resolved by the Supreme Court.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Congressman McCaul, your best judgment. Is there in the Constitution, with the rights of treaty, which go to the Senate, and with a lesser role, in point of fact, for the Congress of the United States and with the signature of the president, is there any interpretation within the Constitution that would permit any president, any Congress, any Senate, or, for that matter, any court to abridge the sovereignty of the United States through any treaty of any kind?
MCCAUL: I don't believe there is that justification. If you look at Article VI, it discusses the laws of the United States and treaties.
However, when this treaty was ratified in the Senate, it was done so with the express condition that it would not usurp United States law or state law. In fact, if you look at the legislative history intent, they were to come back to the Congress if there was any world court opinion that was to the contrary.
So the Congress never gave up its authority to pass laws on this, and I think the president, with the separation of powers, is quite frankly out of line on this one.
DOBBS: And I would say to you, Congressmen, that I think he's out of line on a great deal. But let me ask you, more importantly in the state of Texas, what do the citizens of the state of Texas, how are they reacting, how are your constituents reacting in this?
MCCAUL: Well, they see a Mexican national that's come into our state, violating our state laws, brutally raped and brutally killed two girls, and then they use this consulate notification loophole, if you will, to get a federal -- a foreign tribunal, again, to intervene and get them off death row. I think our constituents are outraged about this case.
POE: Let me follow up on that, Lou. I was a judge when this occurred. I've met the families of the victims. And even under Texas standards, which has a lot of notorious killings, this is one of the worst.
This defendant, his guilt is overwhelming. He confessed. He bragged about killing these two girls. And he never once complained about this consular issue for 10 years. And now he wants to avoid the fate of the death penalty, and it's very, very unfortunate. People are very irritated about the position the president has taken in this case.
MCCAUL: If I can, Lou, I oversaw death row appeals in the state of Texas. This argument has been raised numerous times and repeatedly rejected by the courts, and that's why I feel confident that the Supreme Court will reject this argument.
DOBBS: Well, we will certainly know that, by most expectations, from the knowledge of all on the high court, this spring, a decision is expected by the Supreme Court.
We thank you very much, gentlemen. Congressman Poe, Congressman McCall, we appreciate you being here tonight.
POE: Thank you, Lou.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Up next, Senator Hillary Clinton says she has a plan to help the middle class. We'll discuss that plan and much more with three of the country's best political analysts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me now are three of the best political analysts in the country. Here in New York, we're joined by "New York Daily News" columnist Errol Louis and Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf. In Washington, Diana West, columnist for the "Washington Times."
And thank you all for being here.
We have to start with Al Gore. This is an interesting event, and also the Nobel Peace Prize nomination, and what does that do to his political prospects? Hank, what do you think?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I don't think he's running for president. A little bit late to get in the game. There will be a clamor for him. He will always be the emotional power the Democrats have, and it will be a way to get Democrats to turn out and vote, because they'll look at Gore and say, "We was robbed." And his stature within the Democratic world will be elevated, but that doesn't make a candidacy.
PILGRIM: But the fact that it's late in the game may be not a problem for Gore, because there are so many people in the wings who are saying, "We was robbed." He doesn't have to build momentum, does he?
SHEINKOPF: The problem is he's got to come up with $25 million. That is the entry fee and the amount you need just for Super Tuesday, never mind anything else.
PILGRIM: OK. Diana, any thoughts on this?
DIANA WEST, "WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, I think he would love to be drafted. I think that he's also -- the buzz is he's very critical of Hillary in private. But, again, the money is a big obstacle. But who knows? He's riding a crest.
PILGRIM: Yes, it's true, Errol. We'll maybe talk about this next week with different developments, Errol.
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": You could anticipate what the scenario would be that might encourage him to maybe think about jumping in. That scenario has just not developed. If there was universal or a broad disgust will all of the other Democratic candidates, if Hillary and Barack Obama were polling in the single digits, if there was sort of a revolt in the making, something like what you see on the Republican side, there might be a case for him to think about it. But that scenario has not developed.
PILGRIM: And any backstairs pressure, perhaps, to keep him out?
LOUIS: Well, I think it's the front stairs. I don't think Hillary's people would shy away from saying that at all. They're not looking for any new competition.
PILGRIM: All right.
Let's talk polls. Clinton widened her lead, gained 7 points over the last month. Let's take a look and see at the latest A.P.-Ipsos poll, Democrats. We have Clinton, 42 percent; Obama, 20 percent; Gore, 12 percent; Edwards, 9 percent. Hank?
SHEINKOPF: A national poll of Democrats, but not Iowa poll of Democrats, not New Hampshire poll of Democrats, not Florida poll of Democrats. The point is, what this does is give her momentum without having to work too hard to prove it. And in Iowa, where it will matter, people are going to say, "Well, if she's ahead, why not?" So if I were Mr. Edwards, I'd save my money probably and buy a house.
PILGRIM: Really?
SHEINKOPF: Yeah.
PILGRIM: That's what you'd tell -- OK.
SHEINKOPF: OK.
PILGRIM: And Diana?
WEST: Well, again, I think that the polls at this point have almost taken on a weird parallel life of their own. We've got to wait for Iowa to really see what is real. And when all of these giveaway programs Mrs. Clinton is pushing on us, if they really are what people want, if we've reached this point where we really want to be bought by the government.
PILGRIM: Let's go to a sound bite from Hillary Clinton basically about the middle class. She says she's on her middle-class express in Iowa this week. Here's what she said about the Bush administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: No American was too wealthy to be denied big tax cuts; no well-connected company was too prosperous to lose its tax subsidies or protection from competition for government money. Meanwhile, America's middle-class families have been invisible to the president. It's as if he's looked right through them.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PILGRIM: This is a great theme of hers. She's on the middle- class express. This is a broad swath of voters. You really can't go wrong championing this group. Errol, what do you think?
LOUIS: And yet, strangely enough, much of her competition, especially on the other side of the aisle in the Republican camp, they're so busy fighting ideological wars, trying to get positioned on guy marriage and on things like abortion, that they haven't touched any of the real specifics that the middle-class voter is dying to hear and is telling voters that they want to hear, particulars on how to deal with soaring tuition costs, the subprime mortgage crisis. And so Hillary I think is very wisely getting first to the ground where this election is going to be decided.
PILGRIM: We have Republican Duncan Hunter saying that it's time -- the Republicans have to reconnect with the middle class. Do you think the Republicans are capable of doing it, Hank?
SHEINKOPF: They were. Religion was part of it. But they lost it when they lost -- when the Foley scandal erupted and when the conduct of the war became untenable. What Senator Clinton is doing is smart Democratic politics. Go back to your roots. And when in doubt, be populist.
PILGRIM: Diana, go ahead.
WEST: Well, what she's doing, though, is running up an enormous bill in the hundreds of billions of dollars in an effort to attract middle-class voters with, you know -- now, the Republican National Committee, granted, is a very partisan group, obviously, but they've come up with a Hillary spend-o-meter, just taking from her various programs, $110 million a year for health care, $50 billion going to college relief, or rather $8 billion, $50 billion going here, there, the other place. It's really getting to be an extraordinary total of money that she is, it seems to me, trying to buy middle-class allegiance with.
PILGRIM: This week, she proposed $25 billion to create retirement accounts, also, to add to this list. Errol, last thoughts on this?
LOUIS: Well, until whatever bill she's running up exceeds the $190 billion that was just requested to continue the war in Iraq, I think voters are going to look at it and say, look, in a trillion- dollar economy, $8 billion is not the end of the world, and we need certain things done. That's really what the debate's going to be about.
SHEINKOPF: People are not -- hold on. People are not dopes. They know that the rich have done very well during these last eight years, and they think that middle-income people in this country ought to have a shot. That's what she's saying. That's what she's piping into. And you know what? She's on to something.
PILGRIM: Well, you know, the numbers do back this up, in terms of income distribution. We have to go to break. We'll be right back with more and our panel, so stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: We're back with Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf, and Diana West.
Let's take a listen to something that happened on the campaign trail, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney this week in Michigan. The entire debate was about economic issues, but the former Massachusetts governor had this to say about the debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS: This is a lot like "Law & Order," Senator. No, it has a huge cast, the series seems to go on forever, and Fred Thompson shows up at the end.
(LAUGHTER)
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Senator...
FMR. SEN. FRED THOMPSON (R), TENNESSEE: Not bad, not bad, not bad. And to think, I thought I was going to be the best actor on the stage.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: They have some pretty good writers for this crowd. What did you think of the debate?
SHEINKOPF: Rudy, Rudy, Rudy, Rudy, and I don't think people are paying much attention to anything else. Fred Thompson, he's late, and very late.
PILGRIM: Let's take a look at the polls while we're at this. A.P.-Ipsos poll, Republicans, Giuliani, 25 percent; Thompson, 22 percent; McCain, 12 percent; Romney, 9 percent. Any thoughts, Diana?
WEST: Well, I think it could turn out to be that Thompson is the firecracker that doesn't go off. And I think Hank's right about that. But just one more thing about the Hillary Clinton spending. According to the RNC's spend-o-meter, what she's proposed so far is over $700 billion worth of programs that she could try to get enacted in one term. So it's a lot of money that she's waving around.
PILGRIM: Diana was sitting there with a calculator in that commercial break.
Errol, Dan Bartlett on the Republican field called Romney -- I mean, it's not flattering -- Romney, a flip-flopper; he called Huckabee, "too hick"; and Thompson, the "biggest dud." And there we have the lineup.
This is not flattering. Do you think that there's anyone who's going to spark the imagination?
LOUIS: It's not flattering. And, unfortunately, the one that he didn't take a shot at, Rudy Giuliani, has problems of his own. He's disaffected much of the Republican base. There are serious doubts about his positions on abortion and so forth, gun control. So the Republicans have got a real tussle going on.
Interestingly enough, some of the players at the base who survived from Goldwater all the way up to Reagan are playing for the long term. And some, you get the impression, that they're almost ready to write this election off and try to sort of build a coalition that will look beyond 2008.
PILGRIM: Do you agree with that, Diana?
WEST: Well, I don't know. I don't really think things have really gelled yet. I don't know that anybody writes off an election, you know, so far in advance. But I don't really understand. Dan Bartlett was in charge of communications, right? I don't really get these guys, just what they're all about in terms of...
(CROSSTALK)
PILGRIM: I don't know how constructive it was. Go ahead, Hank.
SHEINKOPF: All things come to an end. The Republicans were in charge. Slowly and steadily, that is dissipating. This will be about the middle class. It will be about jobs. It won't be about the war. And on those kinds of issues, Republicans do not enjoy the advantage Democrats do. To wit, Senator Clinton following the right script with the right people in the right places to get the right votes to win.
PILGRIM: OK, on that note, we do have to conclude. Errol Louis, Diana West, and Hank Sheinkopf, thank you very much.
SHEINKOPF: Pleasure.
PILGRIM: And thank you for joining us. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Enjoy your weekend. Good night from New York. "THIS WEEK AT WAR" starts right now with Tom Foreman.
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