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Lou Dobbs This Week
Deadly Drought; "The Nine"; Afghanistan Assessment; Licenses for Aliens
Aired October 28, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN HOST: Tonight the illegal alien amnesty and open borders lobby suffering another crushing defeat in the U.S. Senate, but the pro amnesty Senate leadership still trying to subvert the will of the people, thank you Senator Harry Reid. We'll have that special report.
And the state of California, beginning to recover from the worst natural disaster in years but the national crisis over our drought and our water supply is escalating. Parts of this country now suffering one of the worst droughts in 500 years. All of that, much more, straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK, news, debate and opinion for Sunday, October 28. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. President Bush and the Congress are heading for a showdown over taxes and spending. The president accusing congressional Democrats of being fiscally irresponsible, this from the biggest spending president since Lyndon Baines Johnson.
President Bush said Democrats are wasting time as well as money. Democrats insist they will not be deflected from their political agenda. Those Democrats are demanding an extension of children's health insurance and a massive tax overhaul. First Elaine Quijano with a report from the White House. Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, President Bush's approval ratings may be stuck in the 30s but that's still higher than the numbers for the Democratic-led Congress. So President Bush is trying to capitalize on that by coming out swinging against Democrats.
The president used the bully pulpit to blast House Democrats for passing another piece of legislation on children's health care, a bill the president says he'll veto as he did before. Then the president slammed Democrats for not getting appropriations bills to his desk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: Only a few weeks left in the legislative calendar. Congress needs to keep their promise. So stop wasting time, and get essential work done on behalf of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: Now President Bush is trying to fire up some element of a disillusioned Republican base, specifically fiscal conservatives who have watched spending balloon under President Bush's watch, even though as he's slamming Democrats for what he says are fiscally irresponsible policies, the president is also asking Congress for another $46 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That brings the total for this fiscal year alone to almost $200 billion.
Now, Democrats have insisted they will not give President Bush a blank check when it comes to Iraq, plus the fact remains they have not been able to force a change in President Bush's policies, so the White House is going on the offensive and look for President Bush to keep hitting back against Democrats. Lou?
DOBBS: Democrats rejecting GOP assertions they're simply playing politics. House Democrats pushing ahead with another effort to expand the children's health insurance program this week by another $35 billion. The House passed a new version of the insurance legislation, while some Republican congressmen were inspecting fire damage in California, that led to cries of playing politics.
Jessica Yellin reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Republicans are fuming the vote happened while seven of their members were in California responding to the fires.
REP. BRIAN BILBRAY, (R) CA: I just can't picture that Speaker Pelosi would be doing this if it was San Francisco burning.
YELLIN: But Democrats point out, Congress didn't shut down when Katrina hit.
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) HOUSE SPEAKER: We can multitask as a Congress.
YELLIN: Democrats say they've made real changes to the bill. They say the latest version sets new income limits to ensure well-off families aren't enrolled. It moves adults out of the program more quickly and tightens identification requirements to keep illegal immigrants from receiving benefits. Democrats maintain they've addressed all of the concerns from the letter from 38 wavering House Republicans.
REP. RAHM EMANUEL, (D) IL: They wrote it down in a letter, and by item by item, whether it was illegal immigrants, answered, check, adults, check, income cap, check.
YELLIN: But some of those Republicans say the changes didn't go far enough.
REP. GINNY BROWN-WAITE, (R) FL: You can take horse manure and roll it in powdered sugar and it doesn't make it a doughnut. That, ladies and gentlemen, I think is kind of what we have here today.
REP. TOM PRICE, (R) GA: We've got a diagnosis for what's going on here today. It's called a crying shame, crying shame. YELLIN: The bill passed as expected but Democrats did not make any real gains since they failed to override the president's veto last week. Despite efforts to woo Republicans, they actually lost one Republican vote. Still, Democratic leaders insist it was a good day for them, and they say Republicans are grasping for reasons to oppose the bill.
PELOSI: They just refuse to take yes for an answer. So the question is, were these reasons why they didn't vote for the bill before or were they excuses?
YELLIN (on camera): But Republicans are asking why Nancy Pelosi refuses to take no for an answer. So the issue appears to be deadlocked with each side accusing the other of playing politics. Jessica Yellin, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The White House tonight focusing as well on the rising threat from Iran. The Bush administration announced new financial sanctions, trying to stop Iran from killing our troops in Iraq and trying to end Iran's nuclear weapons program. One of the targets of the sanctions, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, which has extensive commercial interests, as well as, of course, military operations. The U.S. sanctions come after the United States failed to convince the United Nations to support tougher international sanctions. The United States also facing problems tonight, convincing its so-called allies to fight radical Islamist terrorists in Afghanistan. Many powerful NATO nations are refusing to commit troops to the fight which means the United States and a few other nations are fighting the enemy alone and suffering, of course, all of the casualties. Jamie McIntyre reports from the NATO meeting in the Netherlands.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a closed-door meeting, defense ministers from the 26 NATO nations were given a grim assessment by U.S. commanders. While NATO is winning in Afghanistan now, they were told, victory will take years and require a long-term commitment of even more troops and equipment. U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates called for actions, deeds and a sense of urgency in what he said was a litmus test for the effectiveness of the alliance of the 21st century.
ROBERT GATES, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: The mission still requires more maneuver elements and fewer restraints on how forces can be used. We discussed these shortfalls openly and honestly and a number of ministers spoke very strongly about the need for increased contribution so that the burden is shared more equally by all.
MCINTYRE: Right now, U.S., British, Canadian and Dutch troops are doing the bulk of the front line fighting, and the 1,600-strong Dutch force is, in the words of a senior U.S. official, punching above its weight class, but in what a senior U.S. official called a big strategic shift, France has pledged to send dozens of military trainers to Orezgan (ph) to help ease the burden on the Dutch. Gates said he did make clear to his counterparts the United States would not again extend an aviation brigade need because of the failure of NATO to deliver 20 transport helicopters capable of operating in the thin air of the Afghan mountains.
(on camera): Despite debating the issue for years, NATO has failed to upgrade its capabilities to the point where it can't even come up with enough helicopters to relieve an American unit overextended in Afghanistan. NATO is forced to look at the prospect of leasing helicopters from private companies, including ones in Ukraine and Russia. Jamie McIntyre, CNN, Nordveg (ph), the Netherlands.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Still ahead, new charges that American toy brands are putting profit ahead of safety of American consumers. Christine Romans will have that for us. Christine?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, disturbing testimony this week about the conditions under which your toys are made. It's critical information before you buy another toy, Lou.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much. We'll be looking forward to that.
And new evidence that Governor Eliot Spitzer's desire to give away driver's licenses to illegal aliens will lead to massive voter fraud and perhaps higher insurance rates as well. My goodness. We don't suppose, do we, that the governor is trying to mislead the citizens of his state? We'll have that special report.
Drought conditions spreading across much of the southern part of the country. Some areas already suffering the worst drought in 500 years. That story and more as we continue. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, New York Governor Eliot Spitzer is going to give away those driver's licenses to illegal aliens no matter what the impact on the citizens of the State of New York or the citizens of this country for that matter.
North Carolina and Tennessee once had similar policies. But not as intractable leadership. As Bill Tucker now reports, those states experience massive fraud as illegal aliens traveled from all over the country to get those good old driver's licenses.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The drive to give illegal aliens driver's licenses in Tennessee ended after two federal busts and one joint federal/state investigation uncovered two criminal rings and a bribery scheme. They all had one purpose -- obtaining licenses for illegal aliens from out of state.
BILL KETRON (R), TENNESSEE STATE SENATE: It just got so overwhelming and there were so many illegals being drawn here. I mean the word got out. So they were -- we were just being flooded. And we started hearing complaints at the department of DMV testing stations, where it was taking two or three hours for people just to get a license renewed.
TUCKER: The program was ended last year. North Carolina discontinued a similar program after officials say its motor vehicle offices were overwhelmed by illegal aliens. Law enforcement was glad to see the program end.
SHERIFF JIM PENDERGRAPH, MECKLENBURG COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA: It caused a lot of problems with identification. And we found that a lot of driver's licenses in this state that were issued to people with fictitious names and fraudulent Social Security cards.
TUCKER: The trend nationally is to require proof of legal residence before a driver's license is granted. Only seven states grant licenses or I.D.s to illegal aliens. New York would become the eighth. Utah is the only one of those states with a two-tier license -- one for citizens, illegal residents and the other for illegal aliens.
In New York, there will be no such distinction.
NEIL BERRO, COALITION FOR SECURE DRIVER'S LICENSES: Let's get it clear. The licenses that are indistinguishable from lawfully present individuals in a state is a major, major concern. That simply provides a form of identification that is exactly what folks are looking for who want to obtain such documents.
TUCKER: An illegal alien becomes indistinguishable from citizens in legal residence, which is why Frank Merola, a county clerk in New York State, is filing suit at his personal expense against the governor, Eliot Spitzer, to stop him from proceeding with a plan that he says would force him to violate state and federal law.
FRANK MEROLA, RENSSELAER COUNTY CLERK, NEW YORK: It's the action of the county clerks to disobey the law (ph). And the law is pretty simple. Section 502 states you are required to have a Social Security number -- cut and dry. There's no way around it. And in addition to that, there's federal law. In federal law, you can't knowingly help someone that you know is in this country illegally.
TUCKER: Merola believes other county clerks will sue the governor, as well.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TUCKER (on camera): Merola and 19 other county clerks in New York State face being sued themselves by the governor to force them to issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens, something which they have refused to do and Lou, on the subject of lawsuits, we need to point out that next week is a deadline the GOP Assembly leaders said they will file suit against Spitzer if he doesn't rescind this policy and there's no one that expects him to do that. DOBBS: You even wonder why the attorney general, Andrew Cuomo isn't suing this governor. It's in direct violation on its face a violation of state law.
TUCKER: You wonder if party affiliation has something to do with that.
DOBBS: New York is wonderfully corrupt in terms of its party politics, when I say that I'm talking about both Republicans and Democrats but Democrats in the State of New York need to tell this governor to cut the nonsense. This is an absurdity. He is being absolutely irresponsible. It's an abuse of power.
If it stands, he will roll back citizen rights in the State of New York for a very long time. To the degree they still have any, with this governor acting as imperiously as he has. Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
Turning to the crisis now over dangerous imports, more than half a million Chinese-made children's toys this is week were recalled again because they contained excessively high levels of lead. These recalls came on the same day that the U.S. Senate held a hearing on conditions in Chinese toy factories. Witnesses telling Congress that some U.S. toy brands are not only sacrificing the safety of American consumers, but Chinese workers as well.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eighty-hour work weeks, 20 or 30 cents an hour, dangerous chemicals.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: No American worker should be told, you have lost your job because you can't compete with a sweatshop.
ROMANS: Bama Athreya has interviewed Chinese factory workers, and says toy brands and retailers are -- quote -- "wringing profits from human misery."
BAMA ATHREYA, INTERNATIONAL LABOR RIGHTS FORUM: Wal-Mart and the world's major toy brands and retailers are not producing in China despite the lack of meaningful protection for workers or product safety. They are they precisely because of it.
ROMANS: Wal-Mart says, quote, "Our commitment to low prices does not come at the cost of safety."
According to anti-sweatshop campaigner Charles Kernaghan, new toy factory employees are coached.
CHARLES KERNAGHAN, NATIONAL LABOR COMMITTEE: The first day they come into the factory they're given a training session where they teach the workers how to lie to Mattel auditors and other corporate auditors. ROMANS: Mattel declined an invitation to testify, but insists it has strict standards for its vendors and licensees. Of the 8,000 toy factories in China, a new toy industry group so far has certified just 670.
PETER EIO, INTERNATIONAL COUNCIL OF TOY INDUSTRIES: In two short years, we have made great strides forward, but recognize there is a great deal still to be done.
ROMANS: Most brands have pledged to use only certified factories in China by the end of the year 2009. Yet top American brands have been making their toys in China for more than 20 years.
Harry Wu is a human rights activist who spent 19 years in a Chinese prison camp. He cites two products made by prison labor -- Christmas lights and, he says, artificial flowers.
HARRY WU, LAOGAI RESEARCH FOUNDATION: The prisoners would sit in a small space and put these leaves and flowers on the branches, include the label, "Made in the United States," "99 cents," "1.99 cents".
ROMANS: One Senator said it comes back to a broken U.S. trade policy.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: The time is long overdue for this Congress to begin rethinking these unfettered trade policies, which is are hurting so many people in America and all over the world.
ROMANS: Senators Bernie Sanders and Byron Dorgan have introduced a bill to make it illegal to sell, trade or advertise goods made in sweatshops.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
ROMANS (on camera): In that testimony a point that bears some repeating. Mattel's chief executive officer was paid some $6 million last year while his typical manufacturing worker isn't an American, but rather a Chinese factory worker, that works out, the Mattel CEO is making just about 5,400 times more than his average worker, Lou.
DOBBS: And this Mattel CEO - And I'm not going to use his name, I don't think it's warranted. You'd have to be offering up some respect to do that. This son of a gun has not apologized to the American people but he has apologized to the Chinese, taking no responsibility whatsoever, and not being accountable in any way for what he is doing to American consumers and potentially to children in this country, by absolutely irresponsible business practices.
ROMANS: He did take out some full page ads, where the company said they were sorry. He did go to Congress and said we were let you down and we let you down. But you're right, that apology, the public apology to the Chinese saying they were sorry for damaging the Chinese reputation, that got a lot of interest and some play yesterday in the hearings as well, Lou.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you very much. Coming up next here, a defeat for amnesty supporters in the Senate. The open borders crowd taking another shot. We'll have a report and we'll be talking with Senator Jeff Sessions, one of the leading opponents and critics of what these open borders amnesty advocates are trying to accomplish at America's expense.
And severe drought conditions across the West, the Southeast, now spreading across the United States. We'll have that special report and more. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: High winds, hot temperatures, drought, all combining to spread those raging wildfires in Southern California. The drought affecting more than just the Southwest, as Casey Wian now reports, some parts of this country are suffering from the worst drought in at least a century.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOVERNOR ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, (R) CA: It's a tragic time for California.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The devastation and destruction of Southern California's wildfires confirmed the predictions of state officials, who warned of a brutal fire season. Still, even veteran firefighters were shocked by the scale of this week's firestorm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were faced with a situation this morning, which is worse than many of us could have imagined.
WIAN: 2006 and 7 have been Southern California's driest years on record. The region received only about 20 percent of its normal rainfall. While the drought is bad in California, it's worse elsewhere.
GOV. SONNY PERDUE, (R) GA: I've declared an emergency in 85 of Georgia's counties.
WIAN: The most extreme drought in Georgia's history is threatening Atlanta's water supply. For the first time in a century, the Southeastern United States is in the most severe category of drought.
MARK SVOBODA, NATL. DROUGHT MITIGATION CENTER: In any given year you typically expect to see around 10 to 15 percent of the United States in some form of a drought or another. This year we have over 40 percent of the United States in drought.
WIAN: Droughts bring serious economic consequences. California water officials say wildfires are the most costly. From 1960 through 1999, wildfires burned an average of 3.5 million acres in the United States each year, but since 2000, the average number of acres burned has doubled, to more than 7 million.
One reason, according to a 2006 "Science" magazine study, the average length of the annual fire season increased by 78 days since the mid 1980s. Fire season used to last from June to October. Now it stretches from April through November. The report concludes climate change is the main reason. Another factor, land use patterns, including declines in grazing and logging that have provided more fuel for firestorms.
Unfortunately for drought-affected and wildfire-prone areas the outlook for rain is bleak through next year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN (on camera): Climatologists say a la Nina weather pattern is now developing and that traditionally brings warmer and drier weather throughout the entire southern United States. Lou?
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.
The drought ravaging the western states and the Southeast spreading to the Mid-Atlantic region. The National Climate Data Center reports drought conditions exist in more than 40 percent of the contiguous United States. The Southeast as Casey reported has been hardest hit. Georgia issued severe water use restrictions and the governors of Florida and Alabama are warning that their state's water supplies are threatened by Georgia's water consumption.
Up next here the pro-amnesty lobby suffers a major defeat on Capitol Hill. But some lawmaker, the Democratic leadership in particular are refusing to give up. I'll be joined by Senator Jeff Sessions to discuss what's next on the agenda.
And an inside look at our Supreme Court. Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is the author of an important new book and "New York Times" best seller "The Nine." He will be with us.
And how do Americans feel about the performance of this Democratically-led Congress? Just about the same as they felt about the Republican-led Congress. We'll have the latest poll numbers and more when we continue. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
DOBBS: Pro-amnesty open borders lawmakers aren't giving up on their so-called grand compromise, comprehensive immigration reform, as they like to put it.
The Democratic leadership in the Senate absolutely determined to press ahead against the interests of American citizens. Just this past Wednesday, senators tried and failed to push through their controversial DREAM Act. As Lisa Sylvester now reports, that legislation would have given citizenship to more than 1 million illegal aliens and effectively legalized millions of their family members as well.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lawmakers trying to resurrect immigration reform with the DREAM Act...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The motion is not agreed to.
SYLVESTER: ... were defeated. The Senate voted to kill the bill that would have given legal status to more than a million illegal aliens, many of them students. The debate came down along party lines. Republicans said there is little national appetite for any amnesty program, evidenced by the failure of comprehensive immigration reform this summer.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R-AL), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Even after our national debate and vote a few weeks ago, the Congress still does not get it, that the Congress is still determined to stiff the will of a decent majority of American citizens.
SYLVESTER: Democrats tried to make an emotional appeal, how promising students brought to the United States illegally at a young age would be denied a chance at college and a better future.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Give these kids a chance. Meet them. Take them the time to see these children. Many of us have. And what you will see in their eyes is the same kind of hope for this country we want for this country in our own children's eyes, to be doctors and nurses and teachers.
SYLVESTER: Republicans acknowledge that there are some heartbreaking stories out there. But they say rewarding illegal behavior with a path to citizenship will only encourage more illegality.
Senator Jim DeMint said the starting point for immigration reform is enforcement.
SEN. JIM DEMINT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: We need to fix our borders. We need to create an immigration system that works. We don't need to create amnesty one step at a time.
SYLVESTER: Supporters of the DREAM Act acknowledged it was a long shot going in. The defeat of the legislation diminishes the odds that Democrats will try again before next year's election.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (on camera): The White House came out against the DREAM Act, saying it prefers the so-called comprehensive approach. The Office of Management and Budget said the DREAM Act would lead to large scale document fraud, contain loopholes that guarantee permanent status for criminal aliens, even those convicted of felonies and would allow beneficiaries to petition almost instantly to bring family members into the country. Lou?
DOBBS: And yet the Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill pushing this nonsense, acting as if the June vote never occurred. The obviously they believe the American people are an absolute passel of fools they can roll anything by. SYLVESTER: You know what they try to do is to try to push these things through with very little notice, hoping that no one is paying attention but of course we are following this very closely.
DOBBS: As are the American people, concerned as they possibly can be about a Congress, representatives of both parties who have obviously no interest in representing working minimum in this country, the American people, American citizens. Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Senator Jeff Sessions opposed the DREAM Act in Wednesday's vote, one of the leaders of the opposition. The outcome of the vote wasn't clear until the very end, however. The senator has a very good idea of what the turning point was that swayed the senators' votes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: You know, I'm not sure what was the pivotal event. We had a number of Democrats that broke with Harry Reid. We had the White House issuing a statement highly critical of the bill. And, basically, I think as people thought about it, the only thing they could conclude was, at a time when we're desperately trying to convince the world that we have a lawful system of immigration, we shouldn't be giving amnesty to people who just came into the country as little as five years ago, putting them on a guaranteed path of citizenship.
So I think those may have been the factors that came together.
Also, I think people were hearing from their constituents, and they didn't like it.
DOBBS: Well, they don't seem to like it there on Capitol Hill when the American people seek representation from their elected officials. And I'm talking about both parties, Senator Sessions.
What in the world is wrong with our elected officials that they think they shouldn't be bothered with representation of the will of the majority in this country?
SESSIONS: They think they know better. They think they know better. They think they care more. But look, Lou, what we should be caring about, and what we should deeply care about, is the rule of law -- a systematic immigration system that allows people to come here lawfully, but does not allow hundreds of thousands -- millions -- to come illegally on a regular basis. It just ...
DOBBS: Do you think they've got...
SESSIONS: It is not good for America.
DOBBS: I'm sorry, Senator.
Do you think your colleagues, and principally the Democratic leadership, which seems absolutely incapable of receiving -- they seem to be transmitting all the time. But do you think they're getting that either perhaps there should be some sincerity on their part in securing the borders, securing the ports before starting off on this nonsense again?
SESSIONS: Maybe. We've got some other amendments coming up this fall. I think the ag jobs could be a three million person amnesty.
DOBBS: Right.
SESSIONS: This one is a one million person amnesty. So it'll probably come back up again. So we've got to be alert. But I do think that we're not where we need to be on enforcement yet.
DOBBS: Senator, we thank you very much for being with us.
SESSIONS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Two leading Democratic presidential contenders say they will still try to push Congress to pass the DREAM Act. Senator Hillary Clinton released this statement, are you ready? This statement from someone who wants to be president of the United States.
"I am disappointed," she said, "that the Senate failed to pass the DREAM Act. The enactment of this legislation is long overdue and I will continue to fight for its passage for all of our children and our nation." Thank you, Senator Clinton. What utter, in my opinion, utter blather.
But you're not to be outdone, Senator Clinton. Your rival, Senator Barack Obama fully embraces the amnesty agenda as well and the DREAM Act of which he is an original cosponsor saying, "For the millions here illegally, but otherwise playing by the rules, we must encourage them to come out of hiding and get right with the law."
This from a man who wants to be president of the United States. Identity politics, group politics, alive and well amongst the Democratic contenders for their party's nomination.
Coming up next, we'll have more on this lobby seeking illegal alien amnesty and open borders, and we'll have more on the refusal of many lawmakers to listen to the will of the American people. I'll be talking with three of the country's best political analysts about that and a lot more.
And then, how does the current makeup of the Supreme Court affect our daily lives? Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is the author of the runaway "New York Times" best seller "The Nine." We'll be here. We will. We hope you'll stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "The Nine: Inside the Secret World of the Supreme Court" is a runaway "New York Times" best seller. I'm joined by the author of "The Nine" and CNN's senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeff, first of all, congratulations on your book. Outstanding read and an outstanding performance on the best seller list.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's been going well, thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: May it continue to do so. I can't recommend the book too highly, a fascinating book inside the book and it raises the question. One thinks of the Supreme Court as nine folks there in robes who like to be very secretive, cloistered amongst themselves, but you have made, you put together a revealing portrait.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, the court has changed somewhat. In 1979, "The Brethren" came out, the book that Bob Woodward co-authored and that was the first time anybody looked inside. That was traumatic for the court and I think it took 20 years for the court to want to open up. The court has turned over 100 percent since the period covered by "The Brethren." So there are people who recognized the justices there, many of them, not all of them, who recognize they have to speak to the public in a way other than just through their opinions.
DOBBS: The personalities that you portray, not always flattering, certainly, and actually in some cases extremely troubling, at least, I'll speak for myself, to see the way in which this particular sausage is made. Do you think that's the reaction of many people?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, I'm respectful of the institution and I do respect all the justices, but there are some eccentrics there, some people there who are very unusual, and to sort of examine their character is, I mean it was fun for me, and I think it is entertaining to read about, if sometimes a little troubling.
DOBBS: As you're reporting and you and I have been colleagues for a very long time now. The concerns about the creation of the Roberts courts with the chief justice coming on board, Samuel Alito joining him, all of the concerns about this conservative court and it turns out this fellow Justice Kennedy is a guy who's actually making the decisions here.
TOOBIN: There has never been a Supreme Court justice, certainly in my lifetime as powerful as Anthony Kennedy. You have four serious conservatives, four liberals and Anthony Kennedy gets up every morning every day and decides what the Supreme Court are going to do. There were 25 five to four decisions. He was in the majority in every single one. It's a very good time to be Anthony Kennedy.
DOBBS: And the likelihood that we're going to see this court exert a lasting significant imprint on whether the issue be abortion, whether it be affirmative action, what are the prospects, in your judgment, given the nature of this court?
TOOBIN: Only one factor will determine the future of the Supreme Court, the outcome of presidential elections. If Democrats win, we're going to have one kind of court. If Republicans win, we're going to have another.
And 2008 is especially significant, because three of the four liberal justices, John Paul Stevens, who is 87 years old, although I should add his older brother, William Stevens is still practicing law in Florida at the age of 90. But Stevens, Justice Souter and Justice Ginsburg are all likely to leave. If even one of them leaves and a Republican president appoints a successor it's likely to be the end for Roe v. Wade, the end for affirmative action but frankly that's the way it should be, that's one of the reasons we elect presidents.
DOBBS: You say it is the way things should be, it is also the way things have been. These courts take on the nature of their chief justice, it seems, they take on certainly the nature of the direction, if you will, the character of those justices turns out to be the judicial fate of the nation, activist or not, this court has been one of the least active and least productive in terms of the cases it's deciding in years.
TOOBIN: This is an amazing fact about the court. In the '80s, when Warren Berger was chief justice they were deciding 150 cases a year. This year they decided 68, and that's been relatively consistent, although 68 is a modern low. Sixty eight cases, divided by nine justices, divided by four law clerks apiece, it's a pretty good job for lots of reasons. They do get the whole summer off.
DOBBS: They do. You can't complain about the hours. At the same time, the workload is the lowest since, what, the onset of the Warren court a half century ago. We're also watching these insanely long opinions and dissents.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, one of the ...
DOBBS: Where are we going with all of this?
TOOBIN: I think one of the interesting facts about this court is all nine were federal appeals court judges first. They are professional judges. The court that decided Brown v. Board of Education in 1954, not one of them was a judge previously. I mean it has become sort of the highest point on the civil service ...
DOBBS: And that decision was what, something like 14, 15 pages?
TOOBIN: It was very short. It was around that, and I think the absence of people with heavy duty real world experience, no senators, no governors, no people like Louis Powell who came right out of the private sector, I think that's had a difference.
DOBBS: Should we, should the nation be fearful that it's in the grip of the legal technocrats and elitists?
TOOBIN: I don't know. I watch your show. The nation has so many other things to be fearful of, that I don't think the Supreme Court ...
DOBBS: Should we rejoice as a prospect of the Roberts court?
TOOBIN: I think if you're a conservative you should be optimistic.
DOBBS: What if you're an independent populist who really cares about Americans getting a fair shake and the nation that provides future for generations of Americans to come?
TOOBIN: Do you have anyone in mind when you describe that person?
DOBBS: Every American citizen ...
TOOBIN: Every viewer of this program?
DOBBS: Every viewer of this program.
TOOBIN: I think the court's really poised on a knife's edge. It could go either way dramatically at this point. Certainly the court now, it's a conservative court but it's not an unreasonably conservative court. But we could be looking at major swings soon.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for being here, the author of "The Nine," which is right up there at the top of the "New York Times" best seller list, may it stay there, Jeffrey.
TOOBIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Up next here Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, well, guess what? They're voting for amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. Their policies will be analyzed by three of the country's best political thinkers. Stay with us. We'll be coming right back, right back.
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DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts in the country. Here in New York, Errol Louis, columnist, "New York Daily News," Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf and in Washington, DC, Diana West "Washington Times."
Good to have you all here. Let's start. Hank, I've got to say one of the most impressive things this week to me politically has been how well government at the local, county, state and federal level responded to natural disaster in Southern California.
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: With all of the disappointments we've had as a nation of late to see government work, people selflessly putting themselves out to protect the property and the lives and well-being of their fellow citizens and doing it well is an extraordinary thing.
DOBBS: The national media not giving the credit. I would have expected them to do it. Obviously nothing is perfect, but my gosh this is a positive, good news story.
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Unfortunately, I think they fell right into the trap. There were certain politicians trying to make unflattering comparisons between the response to California and the response to Katrina a couple years ago and the press, unfortunately, went along with it in a lot of cases.
DOBBS: Most of the press as you and I both know -- well, Diana and I won't say what Errol and I both know. You tell us what you think.
DIANA WEST, "WASHINGTON TIMES": They always want to have a narrative and right now the natural disaster narrative was Katrina, but people just behaved completely different and the governments local and state function differently.
DOBBS: They are different events and this was a positive response by government that has been dysfunctional in so many cases. Let's enjoy it and deal with it.
SHEINKOPF: Let's mimic it, too.
DOBBS: And hope that it spreads.
LOUIS: Let's bottle it.
SHEINKOPF: As Diana says, we shouldn't have to, but if we should have disasters, we need that response.
DOBBS: Speaking of another disaster, in New York we have a governor called Eliot Spitzer. You're a Democratic strategist.
SHEINKOPF: I am.
DOBBS: He wants to give away driver's license to illegal aliens, he doesn't care what the experience of other states are, the threat to national security, or state law or what his county clerks or his party and the other leaders in the state legislature say. What is he doing?
SHEINKOPF: Well, I have to, in the interest of fairness tell you that I was the man who produced his campaign commercials in 1998. What is he doing? He is the same man he was then and he is doing what he thinks is right. Whether we like it or not or think it is wrong it doesn't matter. He has a particularly strong sense of conscience. This is what he thinks is right. And that's why he's doing it. There's no other reason by the way.
DOBBS: Do you buy that, Errol?
LOUIS: I think that's probably the reason behind it but the consequences are far outside anything we've seen before. I think he's sort of wrong on the approach. The merits of the issue aren't even being discussed at this point.
DOBBS: I'm discussing them. This broadcast is recording him almost every night.
SHEINKOPF: I agree with you but I'm saying something different. You want to know why? You want to find a motivator? There's no hidden thing going on. He believes this is right. That's how he functions.
WEST: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I've ever heard Hank mention a politician acting only out of concerns of conscience, particularly when Hank has advised him and given all kinds of political advice. What is the game plan? There has to be something beyond this in terms of going for Hispanic vote, that kind of thing. LOUIS: They're not needed. He won with 72 percent of the vote. What could you, what else could you want?
WEST: That's a magic number, too. Because 72 percent of New Yorkers survey are absolutely opposed to what this, what I consider an arrogant rich kid brat is doing. You say he's acting out of conviction. He said publicly because he is doing it because he made campaign promises to what are called in New York media immigrant activist groups, what I call socioethnocentric interest groups, he's paying off them for their support. Irrespective of what the impact is on New York citizens.
SHEINKOPF: Lou, you may be in fact be entirely correct. Remember the first part of the statement, which is he said he was going to do it, he said it during the campaign, he believed it, therefore he's doing it. The issue is not that he's doing it to some extent, it's how he's doing it and not doing it. That's a different issue.
LOUIS: And the fact that this is absolutely without any question violation of state law, it is an absolute contravention of the interests of the State of New York, and we have demonstrated it empirically and will be for sometime because it's clear, too he's going straight ahead with it, to hell with what New Yorkers want or deserve.
Speaking of idiocy, speaking of conviction, let's go to what Senator Hillary Clinton had to say in her disappointment that the DREAM Act failed this week, if we could put that up, I'd like everybody to see that at the same time.
When the Senate rejected it, Senator Clinton said "I am disappointed that the Senate failed to pass the DREAM Act, the enactment of this legislation is long overdue. I will continue to fight for its passage for all of our children and our nation."
Senator Obama, not to be outdone, for the millions here illegally but otherwise playing by the rules we must encourage them to come out of hiding and get right with the law. One of the original co-sponsors. Diana, your reaction?
WEST: You know it's just shocking to me that this is where we are in terms of Democratic politics. But if you notice Hillary mentioning the children. All her career, she has used children's issues as wedge issues for a much larger and more complete radical agenda. Here we have the amnesty agenda coming in on the backs of children, and I think that's what we can see in terms of her support for the SCHIP and other programs that come in with children and radicalize the larger society.
LOUIS: Unlike in New York State, this really is a question of, an attempt at a large political restructuring. The Democrats and Republicans are both trying for it. Mel Martinez, Karl Rove and George Bush tried it with the immigration act, that failed. What you're seeing on the Democratic side is a similar attempt to try and capture a long chunk of votes for a generation or more. DOBBS: Let's be very specific, we're talking about the Democratic leadership, we're talking about the Democratic candidates for president, we're talking about a strategy that is simple, straightforward, pandering to interests, to group identity politics, those socioethnocentric interest groups at the expense of the American citizen. What in the world is going to be the fallout from this, Hank, in your judgment?
SHEINKOPF: Significant fallout. Let me bring this back to Spitzer for a moment. He's a New YorkSstate governor. He's the go toy watch, he's in New York. New York is national news. Senator Clinton, Senator Obama national news, happening at the same time. The voters everyone needs to win in order to be president of the United States reside in four states or thereabouts. There are many, many of them and the majority of them Catholic men. They're not going to like this, because weather Senator Clinton and Senator Obama and Eliot Spitzer are correct, what they will see is again a threat to their livelihoods. Whether it's true or not is not an issue but that's how they'll feel about it and people vote on feelings.
DOBBS: Let me say, I think it is what is correct and what is right that's why there are a lot of voters out there who are going to tell Senators Clinton and Obama and Governor Spitzer to go to hell, because it isn't about triangulating. It isn't about simple emotion. It's about a sense of who we are, the rule of law and what is right and the sense that by God, every American is equal to every other American, and to put the rights of illegal aliens over those of any U.S. citizen is absolutely anathema everything we stand for.
WEST: I think that it shows, and this is what is so troubling and shocking, is that there is a large wing in American politics that no longer has any sense of this country as a nation that depends on individual citizenship. And we see that with the Bush administration, and with large amounts of Democratic Party.
DOBBS: Not only the Bush administration for crying out loud, Senator Brownback getting behind. There is an element of the Republican Party so committed to the hypocrisy of corporate America and multinationals, they don't give a damn about the American citizen. You mentioned it was Democratic this impulse, it's also Republican.
WEST: It is. It is.
DOBBS: And we'll be back with more on this in just a moment. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
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DOBBS: Fred Thompson came out on illegal immigration. What do you think of his proposal? Cut off funding to sanctuaries to enforce immigration law.
SHEINKOPF: He's got to do something to get himself in gear, he's got to put some petroleum in the machine to get it moving. That's a good way to do it. Is it loud or strong enough? There is certainly a portion of the Republican electorate including that very libertarian portion that will say way to go, Fred. And why isn't Rudy saying the same thing? So that's where that goes.
LOUIS: Well, Rudy can't say that. He spent eight years as the mayor of a prominent sanctuary city. Now he is trying, as on many issues, to try and backtrack and ...
DOBBS: And a man who promoted sanctuary city for New York.
LOUIS: Sure. And someone now trying to recreate his identity in many, many different ways, this one I think is one of the least plausible makeovers.
DOBBS: For Fred Thompson, is it effective? Because this is a man who is being generally rounded up by the national elitist press as indolent, not particularly the sharpest tool in the shed and a fine actor, but otherwise inconsequential.
WEST: I think it's a very good issue for him, and I think that it focuses people on this issue in a very clear way. Down in my neck of the woods, we just had a recent poll in Virginia, which going to be a very hotly-contested state, said that three-quarters of the likely voters in Virginia consider immigration to be one of the most important issues in the upcoming elections, up from seventh out of 10 the last time they looked at this issue so people are coming into focus here and he's helping that.
LOUIS: He's banking on people not going for the real thing in Tancredo, you know? But there are far more aggressive voices that have a real history on this so he's ...
WEST: Tancredo should get that.
DOBBS: I'm thrilled that you have vouchsafed that he is the real thing.
WEST: I think he's the real thing.
DOBBS: Hank, you get the last word.
SHEINKOPF: Fred needs some velocity in order to break through, but he's got something he can start to break through that Rudy wall with.
DOBBS: All right. And we'll get to, I guess, Mitt Romney and the others next week.
One thing about it, the field is shrinking very - ever so slightly. Maybe it'll expand over the next week. Thank you all. Hank, thank you very much. Errol, Diana thank you.
WEST: Thank you.
DOBBS: And thank you for being with us. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
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