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Lou Dobbs This Week
More Campaign Coverage; Debating the Usefulness of NAFTA; Fighting for the Middle Class
Aired March 01, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST: Tonight: Senators Clinton and Obama campaigns down to the wire in "make or break" states of Ohio and Texas. We'll have complete coverage.
And: New controversy over the radical pastor of Senator Obama's church. We will ask talk show host, Roland Martin for his assessment.
We'll have all that and much more, straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debate, and opinion. Here now: Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.
Senator Obama tonight, facing a barrage of criticism from opponents on both sides of the aisle. President Bush and Senator John McCain are leading the attack for the Republicans, and Obama's Democratic rival, Senator Clinton is intensifying her assault. Now, these attacks are coming just days before the critical primaries in Ohio and Texas.
In a moment, we'll preview those primaries with three of our very best political journalists and analysts.
But first: Jessica Yellin reports from Beaumont, Texas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): While he's courting votes near the president's Texas ranch...
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you. Thank you.
YELLIN: ... a chorus of detractors is fighting to keep him out of the White House. The presumptive Republican nominee: on Iraq.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama said, well, we shouldn't have gone in, in the first place. Well, that's history, that's the past.
YELLIN: The other Democratic contender: on his record in the Senate.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My opponent said he never held a substantive meeting because he was off running for president. So, I don't think he should be counting that as experience.
YELLIN: And the current White House occupant: on his offer to meet with tyrants.
PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, UNITED STATES: It can send chilling signals and messages to our allies. It can send confusion about our foreign policy.
YELLIN: So far, Barack Obama is playing it cool.
OBAMA: I'll give Bush credit.
I have enormous respect for Senator Clinton.
I revere John McCain's service to this country. He's a genuine American hero.
YELLIN: He's distancing himself from the fight.
OBAMA: It's just John McCain seems to be talking about me a lot.
YELLIN: And hits back only on the issues that he wants to highlight.
OBAMA: For the president to say that he doesn't think we're in a recession is consistent with his general attitude towards ordinary workers.
YELLIN: No doubt, there will be more incoming fire with Republican opposition already calling him a hypocrite on special interests, challenging his position on public financing and reminding reporters of an IRS investigation into his church.
(on camera): To reporters, Senator Obama insists, he's focused squarely on beating Senator Clinton in Texas and Ohio on Tuesday. But on the stump, he's making fewer and fewer pointed attacks on Senator Clinton and more and more against John McCain. It certainly sounds as though Barack Obama is positioning himself as though he's already won the Democratic nomination.
Jessica Yellin, CNN, Beaumont, Texas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And joining me now for more on these primaries showdown, three members of the best political team anywhere: Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley in Mansfield, Ohio; chief national correspondent John King in Cincinnati, Ohio; and, senior political analyst Bill Schneider in Washington, D.C.
John, let me start with you. On the ground in Ohio, the economy is a huge issue in Ohio. What is your sense of how the campaigns are going?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's been fascinating to watch the trade dispute. The two Democrats competing over who would do the most to change North American Free Trade Agreement, and Senator McCain engaging in that debate by saying that not only does he think NAFTA is good for the economy, but the backing out of the NAFTA deal would anger the Canadians who are helping the United States in Afghanistan right now.
So, clear lines about what will happen once we have a Democratic nominee. There will be a huge fight between the Democrats and the Republicans over the virtue (ph) of free trade, and specifically, NAFTA.
But in the meantime, Kitty, this economic fight is largely being waged between Senator Clinton and Obama. And the stakes are enormous.
PILGRIM: Candy, what do you feel about this?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I have to tell you that John's exactly right. NAFTA has been the huge thing here and that is why you have seen the Clinton campaign jump all over a report from Canadian TV that Barack Obama, someone in his campaign, talked to a Canadian official and said, listen, don't listen to this anti-NAFTA talk from Barack Obama, he really doesn't mean it. Now, this has been denied flatly by the Obama campaign. It has been denied by the Canadian embassy.
But nonetheless, the Clinton campaign has seized on this. As we know, campaigns can turn in the final days if some negative news comes out. So, they are pounding this home at the moment.
So, it is about jobs, it is about the economy. And jobs, really, is the one thing that takes precedence here. Hillary Clinton has been working along that West Virginia-Ohio border, areas really hard hit, talking about those home and hearth issues but always, it's always about NAFTA.
PILGRIM: That's right.
Bill Schneider, you know, we were talking to Ohio at this point with John and Candy there. But, you know, Texas, the economy is a huge issue in Texas and we have a poll, the latest CNN Opinion Corporation Poll, in Texas, February 22-24, and for the primary Democratic runners, the economy is 43 percent, health care is 26 percent, Iraq is 20 percent, and immigration, 6 percent.
So, Texas is also a very big thing on the economy. It seems the kitchen table issues are the real concern of American voters. Bill?
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Everywhere. And especially in Texas where there's a very serious problem with mortgage foreclosures, the problem that the Democrats are talking about. And that's the Democrats' issue right now, is the economy.
The Republicans want to focus on national security because that's John McCain's strength. And something is happening that's interesting I want to point out, John McCain likes to take the economic issue and turn it into a national security issue. That's his advantage. So, he says if we give up on NAFTA, if we renege on the deal, as he believes that Senator Obama wants to do, that could hurt our security relationship with the Canadians.
What the Democrats are doing is taking national security and trying to turn it into an economic issue, which is their strength. They're telling -- saying that the war in Iraq is costing Americans $12 billion a month. That's about $400 million a day. And they're saying, an economy that's teetering on the edge of recession, most Americans believe we're already in a recession, that's a lot of money that can be better spent at home.
PILGRIM: You know, we're seeing such a split out between Democrats and Republicans on the war in Iraq. And Iraq really isn't very high up on the list of concerns right now. It's not polling very high.
But there's a huge split between the candidates. We have Obama and Clinton, both stating that they'd withdraw if they came into office, so, they'd starting withdrawing. They believe in a limited mission. And we have McCain saying, you know, continue the counterinsurgency.
John, thoughts on how the Iraq debate might be shaped going forward?
KING: Well, Senator McCain, Kitty is hitting that issue every single day because he believes it will help him as we get closer to November. If firmly believes that if he's wrong about this as he has conceded, he'll probably lose the election. But he firmly believes that the situation in Iraq is getting better and will continue to get better, both from the security standpoint and the Iraqi political situation, which of course has been the hardest one to have any progress.
And what Senator McCain is hoping is to not just turn this into a debate about should the United States be in Iraq, but to turn this into a debate about Senator Obama or Senator Clinton's judgment. Both opposed the surge. Both said it would be a disaster. Both said it would make things worse not better.
What Senator McCain wants to say closer to the election is that I'm the better commander in chief because I stood up to George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, I pushed for this strategy, and now, whoever is the next commander in chief has an easier time looking over the horizon and seeing a way to bring the troops home from Iraq because the security situation is a little better. Event the political situation in his view is a little better.
PILGRIM: You know, even without, sorry to interrupt, John, even without the 30,000 surge, 130,000 troops approximately are still on the ground in Iraq since 2003.
Candy, then, you know, some candidates are trying to make gain with talk of withdrawing. How effective would that be? I mean, the numbers are pretty compelling.
CROWLEY: Absolutely. And what is interesting here is, as John was talking about, John McCain is trying to kind of move this forward saying, let's not talk about how we got in. Let's talk about where we are now. Let's push this forward.
And that is why over the past week, John McCain has said, it's really interesting that Barack Obama says that once he withdraws, if there was some sign of an al Qaeda establishing a base in Iraq, he would send troops back in. McCain has had a field day with this and said, Iraq already has a base in there. This is nonsensical.
So, there are issues in there and there are nuances in there that McCain clearly sees that there is a hole, and is going after Barack Obama. I think also with McCain, since he's kind of waiting out Huckabee at this time, getting into this debate obviously brings him into the headlines, which is something you want to do when you face a general election with, right now, the odds are pretty much against you.
PILGRIM: That's right. Bill, last thoughts, we're almost out of time.
SCHNEIDER: The debate is going to sound like this on Iraq. You're going to have John McCain arguing if the United States withdraws from Iraq too quickly, it will be a serious security threat because it will become a country run by terrorists. He's already saying that.
The Democrat, whoever it is, he or she will say that if the United States stays in Iraq any longer, it will enhance the security threat to the United States because it will recruit terrorists and make the United States look like an enemy to a lot of Arab militants, even more than it is now. That's going to be the debate.
PILGRIM: Certainly. Thank you very much. Bill Schneider, John King, and Candy Crowley, thanks very much.
Still to come: Rising violence and threats against Border Patrol agents along our southern border with Mexico. We will have new video on that.
Also: More states take action on their own to fight illegal immigration. And Lou will talk with a state senator who's leading the fight in New Jersey.
Also, Russia launches aggressive military exercises near U.S. and NATO air space. We'll have a special report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Bush administration is praising Mexico's fight against drug cartels. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told officials in Mexico, that Mexican President Felipe Calderon has done, quote, "an exemplary job" in fighting the cartels.
But, Chertoff said, despite those efforts there has been an increase in violence against U.S. Border Patrol agents by Mexican criminal gangs. Well, there's a shocking new video of that violence. Our Border Patrol agents face attacks every day from drug and human smugglers along the unsecured border with Mexico.
Casey Wian reports on the latest violent assaults against the Border Patrol.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): LOU DOBBS TONIGHT obtains surveillance video of a violent confrontation Tuesday between Border Patrol agents and men, they say, are alien smugglers. It happened 10 miles west of Calexico, California, when agents spotted this pickup truck on a dirt road on the U.S. side of the border.
Realizing they had been discovered, the truck stops. Twenty suspected illegal aliens pour out and flee toward Mexico. The truck's driver also turns south, but becomes stuck in a ravine. Then, the Border Patrol says, several lookouts begin hurling large rocks at an approaching Border Patrol vehicle.
The agent is forced to retreat and the suspects escaped. Here's what one of their rocks did to the Border Patrol vehicle's windshield.
And hour later just a few miles away, another incident involving two men with ladders on top of a border fence. They begin hurling rocks at an agent driving a caged vehicle known as a war wagon. He too retreats. Rock attacks are a daily occurrence all along California's border with Mexico.
MICKEY VALDEZ, ASST. CHIEF PATROL AGENT: The criminal organizations are very frustrated at the level that the Border Patrol has done to gain operation (ph) control of the border. Typical scenario occurs if there is a rocking (ph), we do report it to our counterparts in Mexico. And sometimes, we get a positive, quick response. Unfortunately, more often than not, we don't.
WIAN: A Border Patrol spokesman says anti-vehicle barriers and eventually a fence are planned for the area where Tuesday's attack occurred. But that's no panacea. This month, near San Diego, smugglers stretched a nearly invisible wire across sections of the border fence, the clear intent, to decapitate agents on all-terrain vehicles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The Border Patrol says assaults against its agents along in the eastern California border jumped nearly 700 percent in 2007, and they're rising again this year. The chief patrol agent there says, the violence will not be tolerated and the Border Patrol will respond, he says, with appropriate use of force. Kitty?
PILGRIM: You know, Casey, throwing rocks may sound trivial, but this video demonstrates how deadly this could be for Border Patrol agents.
WIAN: Absolutely. It's a serious threat. These Border Patrol agents are outmanned and in some cases, it's a lot more than rocks. It's Molotov cocktails. It's guns and a lot of times, these Border Patrol agents unfortunately, have to retreat from situations like this because there's just not enough agents and there's too many illegal aliens, drug smugglers and alien smugglers for the Border Patrol to combat, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Well, coming up: Russians go to the polls to choose a new president. The winner is all but assured but will he continue the hardline policies of President Putin? We'll have a report on that.
Also: If Senator Obama rejects the endorsement of Louis Farrakhan but faces questions about the pastor of his own church. We'll have that story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Russians are going to the polls this weekend to vote for a new president, but the new president is all but certain to be Dmitry Medvedev, a close ally of Vladimir Putin. Little is expected to change in terms of policy, and Russia is likely to continue aggressive military exercises around the world. Those maneuvers have included flights over a U.S. aircraft carrier.
Matthew Chance reports from Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the skies over northern Europe, the Atlantic, and the Pacific, an old threat is casting its shadow. Soviet-era Bear bombers, grounded since the collapse of the Soviet Union, are back on patrol. They may look obsolete, but these relics of the cold war can still carry nuclear payloads. And still extend the Kremlin's military reach well beyond its borders.
The Bear bombers are now routinely intercepted by NATO warplanes. This one pictures being escorted by a Norwegian F-16. Earlier, the USS Nimitz aircraft carrier was buzzed by a nuclear bomber in the western Pacific near Japan.
This kind of high altitude Russian roulette has become a trademark of the Kremlin under Vladimir Putin. The former KGB agent turned president is a military hardliner, bitter at NATO expansion, and furious at U.S. plans for missile defense sites close to Russia.
But if it's an arms race, the Kremlin is losing. Earlier this year, Russia's fleet put to the high seas in another post-Soviet first (ph). Missiles were test fired off the French and Spanish coast. But at least one Russian vessel broke down. An official say, the rusty flag ship, the Admiral Kuznetsov has now been sent for a refit, which could take years.
But don't expect any change in rhetoric from Putin's chosen successor. Under President Medvedev, analysts say, there's likely to be a special place for the military and yet more tough talk.
DMITRY MEDVEDEV, PUTIN'S CHOSEN SUCCESSOR (translator): We must revive our military fleet. When we used to have a normal navy presence, there were ships patrolling and everybody respected us. We should become a great marine power with a strong military fleet.
CHANCE: And the site of glistening Russian Bears probing air space to the north, south, east and west, may be as common under Russia's next president as its last.
Matthew Chance, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Coming up: A rising number of states are cracking down on illegal immigration. Because of the federal government has failed to secure our borders, Lou will talk with a lawmaker who's leading the New Jersey efforts.
Also: New questions about Senator Obama's links with a radical pastor in Chicago. Lou will ask talk show host Roland Martin for his assessment.
And: The final countdown to the critical Ohio and Texas primaries. Will Clinton or Obama win? The three of the best political analysts in the nation will join us to discuss.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Headlines this hour: We are following new developments in the Vegas ricin scare. FBI and Haz-Mat are searching a home in Riverton, Utah, belongs to a man who says he's the cousin of a man in Las Vegas sickened by ricin. The FBI says, there's no threat to the public or anyone in the Riverton area.
A big day in presidential politics is approaching with Tuesday's primaries. Our special coverage continues with the BALLOT BOWL tonight at 8:00 and 10:00 Eastern. I'm Tony Harris. Now back to THIS WEEK IN POLITICS.
PILGRIM: Indiana and Kansas, two more states taking the initiative to deal with the illegal immigration crisis. They join a growing number of states fed up with the federal government's failure to deal with this critical issue.
Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The state of Kansas is struggling with the issue of illegal immigration. There is a comprehensive bill now being debated there which would deny licenses to businesses which hire illegal aliens, require the use of the federal program E-Verify, which matches names with Social Security numbers to verify employment eligibility, make identity theft a state crime, deny state benefits to illegal aliens, and direct state and local police to cooperate with federal immigration enforcement. Supporters say the bill is long overdue.
KRIS KOBACH, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: In the last few years, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Missouri have all taken actions to discourage illegal immigration. Kansas is the only one in the region that hasn't done anything. As a result, the population of illegal aliens in Kansas is much higher, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of population.
TUCKER: But the Kansas Chamber of Commerce opposes the bill, saying, quote, "Immigration is an issue that can only be truly solved at the federal level. We are not interested in playing political games at the expense of the Kansas economy and its workers."
In Indiana, there's legislation pending that would direct the state police to work in cooperation with Immigration and Custom Enforcement agents, deny government contracts to employers who hire illegal aliens, and forbid the transportation and harboring of illegal aliens. Business groups oppose it, but the legislation has bipartisan support.
MIKE DELPH, (R) INDIANA STATE SENATE: It's one of those things where the people of Indiana want it. The business community doesn't want it. And the theory behind the bill is to take the money off the table. If you take the incentive for illegal immigration to exist off the table, you dis-incentivize the activity from taking place.
TUCKER: In Texas next week, Republicans are putting the illegal immigration issue to a vote.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: On Tuesday, voters in the Republican primary will be asked if local, state and federal officials, remarkably, should be required to enforce U.S. immigration laws. And, Kitty, we probably should be able to predict the outcome of that vote, but I hope we're right about it.
PILGRIM: It sounds like a preposterous question. Thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
Well, New Jersey is joining those states taking action to deal with illegal immigration. The New Jersey legislature is considering a bill to punish employers of illegal aliens. State Senate majority leader Stephen Sweeney introduced that bill and he told Lou why New Jersey needs this new law.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
STEPHEN SWEENEY, (D) NEW JERSEY STATE SENATE: Basically it's out of frustration with the federal government not dealing with this serious issue of illegal immigration.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: The idea that there would be a penalty, a sanction against business, what has been the reaction amongst your fellow senators in the state legislature?
SWEENEY: Well, it's actually been a little bit mixed, but I have sponsors coming on the bill. And, you know, it's an issue that has to be talked about. You know, Lou, the federal government has ignored this issue for too long. And honestly, I feel the more states start pushing the issue, the better chance we have of getting the federal government to pay attention to it.
DOBBS: The state of New Jersey is, you know, absolutely one of those states which more illegal aliens are moving into, having an impact. You've seen firsthand the impact as a business representative of the Ironworkers Union. Give us a sense of your judgment of the impact of illegal immigration in the state of New Jersey?
SWEENEY: Well, what it's doing is actually suppressing wages now, and it's driving up the cost of government. You know, it's got so many effects on the way we function in the state of New Jersey, and our health care costs are going through the roof. We have a charity care program that we really can't afford any longer.
You know, Governor Corzine just announced a very painful budget, dealing with the fact that we don't have the money to spend on our programs. And again, when you have people that are working, that aren't paying taxes, that are working under, you know, we have an underground economy in most states now, and it's really damaging the economy of this country.
DOBBS: Most people are unaware that we have a more than $1 trillion underground economy in this country, and much of that labor within that economy obviously provided by illegal aliens. You've been attacked by socioethnocentric interest groups as being anti-Hispanic because you've brought this legislation forward. How are you responding to that? How does it make you feel?
SWEENEY: Well, it's actually insulting, because Lou, I'm in the person of state of New Jersey to pass the minimum wage bill. It was my legislation. I'm doing paid family leave and fighting for the little guy on that. I'm -- I believe in workers' rights, but I also believe that this country is a country of laws, and that, you know, we open with open arms, we welcome immigrants to come to this country legally and live the American dream.
But what is going on now is just completely out of control. Why are people supporting companies that are basically cheating and hurting these illegal immigrants by denying them really denying them, really denying them the American dream. When they come here, they don't get to live it. They're second class citizens.
LOU DOBBS, CNN, HOST: When these folks in these ethno-centric activist organizations come after you like that, does it just make you wonder what in the world it's going to take for everybody to get on the same page? Because you really have the liberal left aligning itself with the conservative right, that is corporate America, and when their interests are combined, everyone in the middle loses.
SWEENEY: Well, you know, Lou, that's the thing that is very difficult to understand here. You know, again, what we're talking about, in my bill is a company that knowingly is hiring illegal immigrants. You know, I mean, if the companies at least make the effort to verify. You know, there's checks and balances in place now. They're not perfect but they're in place. If companies actually make that effort. Well, you know, they're not going to fall under this law. They've done what we asked them to do. But to just say that, you know, we can't do anything about it because it's gotten out of control is wrong.
DOBBS: And basically what they're saying to you and to others, et cetera, around the country is we're bigger than the law. And it's inconvenient to us to do business according to the law. That's got to change and Senator Sweeney, we're glad you're one of those making certain that change does occur in this country, which is well overdue.
SWEENEY: Thank you, Lou. I really appreciate that.
DOBBS: Senator Steven Sweeney, thank you very much.
SWEENEY: Thank you.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN, ANCHOR: Coming up, Senator Obama faces new questions about an endorsement by Louis Farrakhan and the pastor of his Chicago Church. We'll have the story on that. Also, the Texas and Ohio primaries, critical contests for Senators Clinton and Obama. We'll discuss that and much more. Three of the nations leading political analysts will be with us. So, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Obama tonight is trying to distance himself from an endorsement by Louis Farrakhan. The Farrakhan endorsement has also raised questions about the pastor of Obama's Chicago church and his relationship to Farrakhan. Mary Snow has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN, CORRESPONDENT: Once again, Senator Barack Obama is facing questions about his church pastor and mentor Jeremiah Wright of the Trinity United Church of Christ. The questions started that at the launched of his presidential campaign when he disinvited Reverend Wright to speak. Why the questions? For one, the church's magazine gave an award to Louis Farrakhan last year, saying he "epitomized greatness," Wright also told the "New York Times" last March, he traveled to Libya in 1984 with Farrakhan and that when Obama's opponents find out, "a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."
Farrakhan had words of support for Obama, unsolicited said Obama. And he's now spoken as for what he does to reassure Jewish-Americans who widely view Farrakhan as anti-Semitic --
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have some of the strongest support from the Jewish community in my hometown of Chicago and in this presidential campaign and the reason is because I have been a stalwart friend of Israel's.
SNOW: Well, Obama has no ties to Farrakhan, he has found himself explaining his relationship with Wright. On Sunday, he told Jewish leaders that Wright "is like an old uncle who sometimes says things I don't agree with" but never heard anything to suggest anti-Semitism. Wright recently retired and Obama says because of that he wants to be sensitive to his mentor. At his last sermon, Wright made a passing reference to Obama in his last sermon.
PASTOR JEREMIAH WRIGHT, TRINITY UNITED CHURCH: Instead of a statistic destined for the poor house, you just may end up a statesman destined for the White House. Yes, we can.
SNOW: A "Chicago Tribune" religion writer says Wright's church has been criticized by some for its motto. Unashamedly black, unapologetically Christian.
MARGARET RAMIREZ, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE," RELIGION WRITER: Some have seen those a combination of those two things as separatists, racists against white people church. But he does not see it that way and the congregants at the church don't see it that way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: Now, Obama has been a member of the church for 20 years and says most of the controversial things Wright has said has been directed at African-Americans. He also says he got the title of his book, "The Audacity of Hope," from one of Wright's sermons. We did try to reach out to Reverend Wright. His office declined a request for an interview. Lou.
DOBBS: And apparently, the Internal Revenue Service looking into whether an investigation is appropriate for the church because of a speech there by Senator Obama, which raised a number of questions apparently, highly irregular as well. Interesting, that no one wanted to talk with you, on any side of this.
SNOW: Well, Reverend Wright has declined interviews now for quite some time. I think that he did an interview with the "New York Times" last March and after Senator Obama announced his campaign and I think he did one and after that stopped doing this.
DOBBS: OK. Mary Snow, thank you very much. Well, joining me now for more on this latest controversy is CNN contributor, radio talk show host Roland Martin from Chicago. Roland, good to see you.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN, CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Lou. How are you doing?
DOBBS: I'm doing great. I know you are. Let's talk about this. You and I have -- we've discussed the minister here. He is obviously very controversial. Afro-centric. You know the man. Give us your take.
MARTIN: Well, actually, a couple of things first, Lou. Trinity United Church of Christ is not being investigated by the IRS, the United Church of Christ denomination is where Obama spoke at their national conference. So, the IRS is looking into the denomination, not the church.
DOBBS: Right.
MARTIN: All right. But in terms of Reverend Wright, first of all, he's been the pastor since 1972. He just retired. In fact, one of the reasons why he's not talking, I even tried to get him on my radio show, he is not talking because he has services every night celebrating his years as pastor. And so he's considered one of the pre-eminent pastors in the nation. (inaudible) magazine named him one of the top 15 black preachers of the entire 20th century.
As we talk about Afro-centric, it also deals with, frankly, into relationship between the church, the black church. Historically, as well as continent of Africa and so that's one of the reasons why he's considered one of the top experts on the whole issue of being Afro- centric. And so he is clearly one of the top pastors in the city. Trinity is one of the most influential churches in the city of Chicago, black, white, or whatever.
DOBBS: And to that, how in the world does it end up that a magazine published by the church basically ends up putting Louis Farrakhan as basically, canonizing the man, in a, not in the literal sense.
MARTIN: Well, again. Another detail that "Trumpet Magazine" was indeed published by Trinity Church, when they chose to become national, they became independent of the church. Jerry Wright, the pastor's daughter. She is a publisher but the magazine is no longer under the arm of the church and it's now an independent publication. But again, on the things that people don't realize in terms of, first of all, Chicago is the home of black nationalism. So, when you talk about the nation of Islam, when you talk about the National Black United Front. You talk about various groups along those lines, it has a rich history in terms of that particular group. So you have a combination of black nationalism in Chicago in terms of being involved in the political area here. When Harold Washington ran in 1983, he put together that coalition of, in terms of all your traditional black politicians and black nationalists and white liberalists as well, and in the span became mayor of Chicago. So it's not uncommon, frankly, for the relationship to be there between Christian churches as well as the nation of Islam here in Chicago.
DOBBS: That's a lot of words between Pastor Wright...
MARTIN: But that's true...
DOBBS: All, I'm saying is that there's a lot of works between Pastor Wright, the magazine, the canonization, if you will of Farrakhan by that magazine, and the relationship between Pastor Wright and Senator Obama. I mean, what is going on here?
MARTIN: It's very simple, Lou. And that is Obama is a member of Pastor Wright's church and that, so Pastor Wright, you know, he was one of the endorsers of the million man march in 1995. Here's what's very interesting, Lou. I watched the debate when Senator Clinton made her comment about he should go further. Well, a lot of folks don't realize also is that in 1995, President Bill Clinton had some positive words to say about what? The million man march that was led, that was created and the keynote speaker there, Louis Farrakhan. The Millionaire's Movement took place in 2005. President Clinton had some positive words to say about that as well, and so what you have here is a very interesting situation with Farrakhan.
There are a number of people who do not like Mr. Farrakhan, then it's very obvious. But there are others who do respect the fact that what we have done in terms of dealing with black men, with being in prison, who's been abusing drugs and alcohol. And so you have a different viewpoint of Farrakhan based upon the various deeds.
Keep in mind, Jack Kemp in 1996 got in a lot of trouble as a VP nominee, Lou, when he praised Farrakhan's focused on separate alliance. And the Jews said wait a minute, hold up, this is Farrakhan, you're talking about. So he knows what it feels like to be in a presidential campaign and saying anything good about Farrakhan.
DOBBS: Well, the issue here I think too is, much of - I'm going to say it this way and I'll probably get into all sorts of trouble, but much of white America doesn't understand much of black nationalism, the a role of Pastor Wright, and the Afro-centric movement within the United States, which has been very important as we've seen the emergence of a black middle class in this country. It's a shame that Pastor Wright doesn't want to talk to folks because that's very important to that understanding and it's very important to I would think Senator Obama for there to be great transparency now across these issues into thinking whether it be cultural, religious, societal or certainly political as it relates to both the pastor and to Louis Farrakhan for that matter.
And Roland, we thank you very much for being here to give us, shed some light on the subject.
MARTIN: No problem, Lou.
PILGRIM: Coming up, the presidential candidates prepare for the critical March 4th primaries. The biggest contest since super Tuesday. Three of the best political analysts in the country will join me. Also, Lou kicks off his new radio show starting Monday, March 3rd, "The Lou Dobbs Show." It will air Monday through Friday. And Lou's guest this Monday are presidential candidates Ralph Nader and Mike Huckabee. Be sure to check the loudobss.com for the local listings.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me now are three of the best political analysts in the country. Here in New York, "New York Daily News" columnist and CNN contributor Errol Louis. Democratic strategist and CNN contributor Hank Sheinkopf and in our D.C. bureau Diana West, columnist with "The Washington Times" and CNN contributor. And Diana is also the author of "The death of the Grownup." Thank you all for being here. You know, this weekend, the entire focus on Texas and Ohio. What do you think coming up?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Who votes is always the question. Who turns out is really the issue. Who is turning out in Ohio? Well, we're not sure. Who is turning out in Texas? It's a pretty good guess, democratic primary, declining democratic vote turnout, east Texas, Houston, Dallas, and who lives there? A lot of African-Americans and they're going to do what they should do, which is vote for the candidate who happens to be an African-American named Barack Obama.
PILGRIM: That's right. The Hispanic vote in Texas also, Diana thoughts on this?
DIANA WEST, CNN, CONTRIBUTOR: Well, we have to assume people are talking about the Hispanic vote in Texas and are not sure which way it's going to go. So that will be very decisive. Mrs. Clinton has traditionally done very well in this, with this group and, of course, her husband did. So we'll have to see if loyalty trumps all.
PILGRIM: Errol.
ERROL LOUIS, CNN, CONTRIBUTOR: Adding to the complexity with Hispanics in Texas is that about a quarter of them are actually republicans. Of course, this is an open primary, so they can choose to vote in the democratic primary as well. So it gets really, really complicated to figure the whole thing out. One thing worth noting though is that the Clinton campaign itself, in the words of Bill Clinton himself, really ratcheted up the stakes of next Tuesday for the Clinton campaign saying she's got to win both Ohio and Texas in order to stay viable in this race.
PILGRIM: Yes. The pressure is definitely on this campaign and we're even forgetting that Vermont and Rhode Island is next week, too. Never even discussed. Well, Rhode Island especially - I mean, Vermont especially, typically an anti-war state. Who has the advantage there on these two candidates?
SHEINKOPF: You have to give the advantage, I think, and I may be wrong, we've all been wrong in the pundit business, by the way, pretty significantly and pretty frequently. You got to give the edge though to Barack Obama. Why? Ted Kennedy. Look what happened in Connecticut. You know, Kennedy, New England, and by the way, Texas is a test of Kennedy's popularity with the so-called Hispanics which are really Mexicans in this case, and I think still Texas, you got to give a little bit of an edge to Senator Clinton, ditto in Ohio.
PILGRIM: All right. Diana, you were trying to get in.
WEST: Well, it all depends. I mean, Kennedy did not deliver Massachusetts for Senator Obama, of course. So it really depends. I think so much of these votes depend on people's -- it's like taking people's temperatures. Are they nervous about foreign policy? Are they worried about global jihad? Do they think Iraq is going well. These things figure and could push a candidate toward Mrs. Clinton. She is and has emerged as the more conventional democrat, a little more hawkish than Senator Obama, who is distinctly dovish. So we have to wait and see just how people feel. It really could go either way.
PILGRIM: You know, this is a gross generalization, but it has been suggested that Obama has a small state strategy, that he doesn't discount a small state, that Clinton has a big state strategy that she tends to focus her efforts on big states and then you have Vermont and Rhode Island. Any thoughts on that?
LOUIS: Well, I would just second the notion that these are wild cards in a big, big way. Vermont has 600,000 residents. It's a very small state. But they've given us very liberal leadership like Howard Dean. But they've given us very liberal leadership, like Howard Dean but they're fiercely protective of their second amendment gun rights. You know, it's just, you never know what you're going to get. I would expect though in small states like those, because Obama has made them a central part of the strategy. I think you're right, you give him something of an advantage going in. Of course, Senator Clinton got neighboring New Hampshire to go her way. So you just don't know what you're getting.
PILGRIM: Yes, it's very hard to predict. And sitting here at this desk is not an easy thing at most times, because really you can be massively wrong at any time. Let's talk money, though. These are hard numbers. The Clinton campaign announced it raised $35 million in February. The Obama campaign suggesting it could be around $50 million. The Obama campaign is really the power house in terms of generating money. That will give a distinct advantage going forward. Wouldn't, Hank?
SHEINKOPF: It certainly gives an advantage, potentially an advantage in the amount of armaments you have to conduct the war but it also gives the press the story that continues to move his momentum along. That's where it is really valuable.
PILGRIM: Yes. Momentum equals money, I guess? Diana.
WEST: Well, certainly, it does. That's why it could also reverse if she does well. One thing I'm curious about, there was a very pivotal moment in the debate this week where I thought Mrs. Clinton scored extremely well, and that had to do with the notion of whether Senator Obama would reject Louis Farrakhan's support as a package. And what we came down to was Senator Obama rejecting the more noxious statements, very specifically the statements, not the support of Louis Farrakhan. Whereupon Mrs. Clinton reminded viewers that in a similar situation in New York in the senate race some years ago, she had rejected the support of a political party that she described as anti-Semitic. So I think this was a very revealing moment. Whether this has any attrition on his notion as a post-racial candidate who could not reject a very racist figure, we'll have to wait and see. But that could be quite significant.
PILGRIM: Errol, do you have any thoughts on this?
LOUIS: Well, the New York case was a little bit different because it was a political party. So there's a real question on the table, do you appear under their banner? Do you ask people to vote for you on that party line as opposed to how many ways can you say you wish Louis Farrakhan would keep his mouth shut, go away, vote for somebody else. I mean, I think it's been said as many ways as you can possibly say, he is an outlier.
WEST: He could say I reject everything he stands for and don't want him to say nice things about me.
SHEINKOPF: I have to disagree with Errol here.
PILGRIM: Yes, Hank. Jump in.
SHEINKOPF: For the following reasons -- the independence party faction which are referring to as headed by a (inaudible ) who was a stone cold anti-Semite. No question about this. Would stood up and apologize for but she has been very clear about how she feels about Israel and Jews. Hey, no question about it. And they are equivalent. You can't be two places at the same time when you're nowhere at all.
PILGRIM: All right. Very interesting point.
LOUIS: Would you agree that the level of support from somebody ranting from a podium in Chicago, right, and a primary state -- that has already passed in a primary that's already passed, compared with, you know, do you want the party line support?
SHEINKOPF: I don't want the Ku Klux Klan or I don't want Louis Farrakhan. I don't want Gerald K. Smith descendants. I don't want (farda Coglin). I don't want anybody who is anything like that in any way, shape, or form, whether it's about Jews, blacks or anybody else. You stand to believe the people say what is wrong. The problem here is that we have people dancing around. One is immoral, one is unethical and one is wrong. Tell the truth. That's the problem.
PILGRIM: Go ahead, Diana.
WEST: Well, it seems to me that it should be extremely easy and important for a candidate like Senator Obama to do. He is supposed to represent a promise of a post racial state of politics. And when he balks at the outright easy up or upper down as Hank says is rejection of a Louis Farrakhan, that is very problematic.
LOUIS: Other than saying I reject and denounce, what else --
WEST: There was no --
LOUIS: ... what else is he supposed to say? He didn't he say it loud enough.
WEST: There was no direct object. He did not say I denounce and reject Louis Farrakhan in some completely -- what else do you want me to say?
LOUIS: Yes, I suspect people are going to have to write out the acceptable denunciation and have them read it everyday from now until November.
SHEINKOPF: I suspect we have to stop doing this to him. But what I'm saying is something different. Stand up, say it is not going to work, period. I don't need this guy around or anybody connected to it, just do that and get on with it. You know, that's what I'm saying. Just do it.
PILGRIM: Let's just take a quick break and get back to it in a second. We'll be right back with more of our panel. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: We're back with Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf and Diana West. You know, we really have to go to the economy. It's one of the big issues for the American public and President Bush really made a gap this week. Let's listen to what he has to say about gasoline prices.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your advice to the average American who is hurting now, facing the prospect of $4 a gallon gasoline. A lot of people facing...
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES: Wait a minute, what were you saying? You're predicting a $4 gallon gasoline.
UNIDENITFIED MALE: A number of analyst are predicting $4 gallon gasoline this spring when they re-formulate.
BUSH: That's interesting. I haven't heard that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
BUSH: I know it's down now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Out of touch, completely out of touch. It's one of the major worries of Americans who have to commute to their jobs. This is not an expense that they can just decide not to spend. Hank, what do you think?
SHEINKOPF: What I think is that there's too many jack a lofts and flying saucers in the Bush world. Come to reality, look at this side of it. $4 a gallon, what is happening? And why is the President of the United States saying something that is on the side of the people as opposed to just looking the other direction.
PILGRIM: Diana.
WEST: Look, if it's $4, if it's $3.50, if it's $3.00. It's too high. Now, one story that did not make the kind of headlines I would have expected a few weeks ago, a month ago when the president was in Saudi Arabia doing the sword dance with one of the kings or princes at that country and asking for OPEC to release more oil and lower the price. And they said no, this is the result. It's a terrible squeeze and this president has not done anything to ameliorate that situation.
PILGRIM: You're absolutely right, Diana. That didn't get the kind of play that should have. Errol.
LOUIS: It's hard to believe that he didn't understand where the press is going. This is a guy who made a fortune in the oil business before he got into politics. Somebody, probably have to grab him in his shoulders and say look, the summer travel season just coming up. It's something people really plan for and fear, you know.
PILGRIM: And in spring, when they reformulate.
LOUIS: We're looking at a seasonal spike and a seasonal spike that comes up from $3.60 or $3.80. It's going to take us, god knows where.
SHEINKOPF: It's a disgrace. Look, this guy allowed -- here's why this is going on. The Chinese say they want to dump U.S. paper and he smiles. Oh, terrible does nothing. The war is being run badly. In South America, Chavez is making us look like chops. All this is going on and it's no wonder they can raise the price of oil at will. They can do whatever they want because America is not acting like America, not being treated the way the United States ought to be treated.
PILGRIM: Diana, quick.
WEST: Yes. Isn't incredible though that we're still not drilling in Anmar. We're letting the Chinese drill off the coast of Florida. We have all of these resources that we are not. We are not taking advantage off and we are being strangled.
PILGRIM: Yes. I can see that people across America saying it's about time someone talk about this in a realistic way that would lower the gas price.
LOUIS: Absolutely, I mean and take action. I mean, very much as Diana and Hank are saying, you got to get out there and you got to sort of fight this thing. I mean, you got back during the big oil shocks during the 1970s. We knew where Henry Kissinger was, the Secretary of State, he was doing shuttle diplomacy. He was in the faces of the OPEC powers, trying to make clear that this was a high priority for America. We haven't seen that so far.
WEST: And not in our candidates either. I think Hillary Clinton is the only candidate who is talking about biofuels ever.
PILGRIM: Right.
WEST: It's not, you know, we have alternative fuels that we should really be pushing and developing. Not happening.
PILGRIM: It's an absolute crying shame and I'm sure every American listening to this broadcast feels the same way. Thank you very much for being here. Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf, Diana West.
We would like to tell you do you that Lou Dobbs kicks off his new three-hour radio program, "The Lou Dobbs Show," on Monday. Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader and republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee are his first guests. Go to loudobbs.com to check your local listings for that broadcast. Thank you for joining us on Monday night. Lou's guests include republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee. Good night from New York.
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