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Lou Dobbs This Week
Interview with Ralph Nader; Messy Democrat Nomination Battle; State Department to Outsource Passport Functions?
Aired March 29, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight: Senators Obama and Clinton remain locked in what has been a long and increasingly bitter battle for the Democratic nomination, and, then, to present a huge problem for the Democratic Party come November, I'll be joined by Tennessee's governor, Phil Bredesen, who has a solution.
And: The State Department overwhelmed with problems in its passport and visa programs. That's what they do. But they've decided to outsource those functions.
And: Ralph Nader, independent candidate for president, joins me. He says Washington is corporate-owned territory.
All of that and much more: Straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debates and opinion. Here now: Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
The struggling economy this week is prompting the Bush administration to call for more regulation of Wall Street. And the presidential candidates push their solutions for solving our economic crisis. Senator McCain called for a limited government role. Senators Obama and Clinton rolled out the "kitchen sink" promising financial relief for just about everyone.
But that assistance is unlikely to be of any help to those Americans now in danger of losing their homes.
Suzanne Malveaux has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): All three candidates are vying to become economists in chief.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we can extend a hand to banks on Wall Street when they get into trouble, we can extend a hand to Americans who are struggling often through no fault of their own.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're trying to run today's economy on yesterday's infrastructure and we're jeopardizing tomorrow's prosperity. MALVEAUX: Democrats Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama presented competing proposals on how to fix the ailing economy. Obama just a few blocks from Wall Street, called for greater government oversight to protect families from predatory lenders.
OBAMA: The American economy does not stand still and neither should the rules that govern it. The evolution of industries often warrants regulatory reform.
MALVEAUX: Clinton, kicking off a three-state tour from Raleigh, North Carolina, emphasized providing relief.
CLINTON: As president, I will work to rein in the corporate special interests and to rebuild a prosperous and strong middle class.
MALVEAUX: Clinton's plan calls for $30 billion bailout for states, to help them buy properties in foreclosure and a 90-day moratorium on foreclosures. Obama's plan calls for a $30 billion economic stimulus package and greater government intervention.
Both Democrats attacked Republican John McCain for his approach, which limits the government's role in stabilizing the market.
OBAMA: It amounts to little more than watching this crisis unfold.
CLINTON: It seems like if the phone were ringing, he would just let it ring and ring and ring.
MALVEAUX (on camera): John McCain's campaign put out a statement in response to the criticism, saying, "I believe the role of government is to help the truly needy. Reform should focus on improving transparency and accountability in our capital markets. What is not necessary is a multibillion dollars bailout for big banks and speculators, as Senators Clinton and Obama have proposed."
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on Wednesday shocked just about everybody, calling for more regulation of Wall Street investment banks as the impact of our worsening mortgage crisis continues. Secretary Paulson is the former CEO of Goldman Sachs and said investment banks that receive emergency loans from the Federal Reserve should also be subject to the same regulation and supervision as commercial banks.
Christine Romans has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Treasury secretary before the largest American business lobby, called for more oversight of Wall Street.
HENRY PAULSON, TREASURY SECRETARY: This latest episode has highlighted that the world has changed, as has the role of other non- bank financial institutions and the interconnectedness among all financial institutions.
ROMANS: He's talking about the investment houses the Fed has desperately tried to stabilize with your money. Paulson says the government needs more access to the financials of some of these firms to see just what sort of risks they're taking, risks, as the subprime mortgage crisis has shown, that could slam the overall economy, risks that prompted the taxpayer rescue of Bear Stearns and billions of low interest taxpayer loans to others.
KENNETH ROGOFF, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: You can't both go in and bail them out, and then, just let this go, gamble it up again, and then, come and bail them out after that. I think, the investment banks really were crying out for help and this is the price that they have to pay for it.
ROMANS: But Rogoff warns against overreaching like the Sarbanes-Oxley accounting reform law in the wake of Enron, much maligned by big business. At the same time, housing advocates scoffed at the administration focus on the big players.
JOSH NASSAR, CTR. FOR RESPONSIBLE LENDING: What's been missing in the administration's pronouncements are bold plans to help the homeowner. And that is fundamentally what is needed.
ROMANS: The Center for Responsible Lending estimates 20,000 homeowners of subprime loans are losing their homes each week.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: And they say if banking regulators had done their job in the first place, they do have consumer protection responsibilities, and this crisis could have been avoided, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, it's great. This week for the first time, in the two terms of the Bush administration, a call for regulation by this government. Amazing.
ROMANS: We'll see what happens when they release their blueprint for how to fine tune the oversight of the financial system, and see if it's really more oversight or if the free marketers get their way and the fed stays out of it, the treasury stays out of it.
DOBBS: Well, I'm sure that the Bush administration is going to issue to all cabinet secretaries little hand puppets that say Mr. Market and they'll be talking just fine. Thanks, Christine Romans.
Turning now to the war in Iraq: Our forces were drawn into the fighting in Southern Iraq this week. American war planes attacking targets in support of Iraqi troops fighting Shia extremists in the oil port city of Basra. And extremists in Baghdad intensifying their mortar attacks on the U.S. protected so-called Green Zone.
President Bush on Thursday praised the Iraqi government's offensive against those extremists. Ed Henry has our report from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another day of chaos in Basra. Shia militiamen sabotaging an oil pipeline, as the Iraqi military's attempt to regain control of this southern port city has stalled.
Meanwhile, at the National Museum of the Air Force in Dayton, President Bush continued to tout progress from the surge, trying to make the case, the violence in Basra is actually building on that success.
PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, UNITED STATES: Prime Minister Maliki's bold decision -- and it was a bold decision -- to go after the illegal groups in Basra shows his leadership. It also shows the progress of the Iraqi security forces have made during the surge.
HENRY: But the president also seemed to be prepping the American people for a spike in violence, as the Mehdi Army of Muqtada al-Sadr pushes back against the Iraqi forces.
BUSH: This operation is going to take some time to complete. And the enemy, you know, will try to fill the TV screens with violence. But the ultimate result will be this: Terrorists and extremists in Iraq will know they have no place in a free and democratic society.
HENRY: Another possible result: The new violence could spark an unraveling of the ceasefire with the Mehdi Army that had stabilized the situation on the ground.
Nevertheless, the president focused on economic and political gains made by the Iraqis, even using a sports anecdote he heard from General Ray Odierno, the former number two commander in Iraq who just returned home.
BUSH: He flew over Baghdad 15 months ago and he couldn't see a single soccer game. On his final flight last month, he counted more than 180. It is a sign that the surge is working and civil society is beginning to grow. It is a sign normalcy is returning back to Iraq.
HENRY (on camera): Just as interesting is what the president is not saying. He's not talking about bringing home more U.S. troops later this year. With violence increasing on the ground, it's going to be harder and harder for him to bring home a large number of U.S. troops before he leaves office.
Ed Henry, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Up next: New concerns that U.S. airlines are cutting corners by outsourcing their aircraft maintenance. Bill Tucker will have a report for us.
Bill? BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, there's no arguing that the airlines are under tremendous pressure to cut costs. We'll look at new charges raised by the airline labor unions next. Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Bill. I'm looking forward to that.
And: New findings about passport and visa problems. The U.S. State Department is outsourcing just about everything it's supposed to be doing and more red flags about our national security. That report is coming up.
And: Detroit's mayor charged with eight felony counts including perjury and obstruction of justice. The prosecutor who brought those charges joins us.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: American and Delta airlines, two of the country's biggest airlines, are canceling hundreds of flights this week trying to review their maintenance procedures. The Federal Aviation Administration ordering reviews of all airline safety practices several weeks ago, that after finding Southwest Airlines for missing safety inspections. Latest round of inspections raising a lot of questions of course about whether airlines are putting profit ahead of passenger safety.
Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): Delta, American, United, Southwest, all experiencing a renewed focus on maintenance. It comes in the wake of a Federal Aviation Administration inspection of Southwest airlines and a resulting $10 million fine.
There was an inspection that the FAA gave Southwest full warning that it would be conducting, prompting the airline to disclose that some of its aircraft had been flying with cracks in the fuselage.
One pilot, who is also a chief financial analyst looking at the industry, says airlines are under tremendous financial pressure.
VAUGHN CORDLE, AIRLINEFORECASTS: The airlines who historically for 20 years on average, paid 61 cents a gallon prior to 2003, are now today paying $3.20 a gallon.
TUCKER: He estimates that it will cost the airlines $38 billion in jet fuel costs alone this year. It is that sort of financial pressure which labor groups say makes outsourcing the maintenance of planes overseas so attractive, because labor costs there are lower. It is a trend that the labor unions call disturbing.
LESLIE MILLER, INT'L. BROTHERHOOD OF TEAMSTERS: Mechanics who work on planes in South Korea or China, they don't have to get FAA certificates. If you work on a plane in the United States, you have to have an FAA certificate.
TUCKER: Ironically, Southwest Airlines had been planning to outsource a large piece of its maintenance to El Salvador prior to the discovery of problems and the resulting fine. The airlines continue to insist that flying is safe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Groups critical of the FAA say they believe that the regulator has too cozy a relationship with the industry. The FAA, in its defense, points out that this latest wave of inspections is in response to FAA reviews of maintenance records.
And they note somewhat proudly, that the number of inspectors over the last seven years has risen 25 percent, while, Lou, the number of flights has declined 10 percent. So, that's contrary to a lot of the trends we're seeing at other federal agencies.
DOBBS: Well, all we have to do is figure out what this airlines industry is going to look like because it's pretty clear that these airline management teams can't run them and that deregulation isn't working for most passengers.
It's terrible the way the airlines are treating passengers and the delays that are faced, the lost luggage, the canceled flights. I mean, this is starting to look like a third world country.
TUCKER: And a lot of these planes, Lou, I want to point out, are 14 and 20 years old. We got (ph) an aging fleet in addition to everything else.
DOBBS: Well, brilliant management, and a really, really lousy public policy. Thank you, Bill Tucker.
Another example of our government putting expediency ahead of national security, the State Department is outsourcing the manufacture of American electronic passports to foreign countries and at the same time, doing little or nothing to enforce visas into the United States.
Louise Schiavone has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New findings about passport security breaches and visa overstays are raising red flags about national security. The "Washington Times" reports batches of blank passports had be shipped to several countries, including the Netherlands, Israel, and Germany and then, on to Thailand for processing.
MICHAEL CUTLER, FORMER INS AGENT: Would they do this with money that's being minted in the United States or being printed in the United States? The passport is as vital a document as is our currency. This should never be outsourced to any foreign company. This should be done by the American government. SCHIAVONE: The outsourcing decision was made by the Government Printing Office, which the report states reaped huge profits in overcharges to the State Department. GPO says it couldn't find a U.S. company capable of assembling the latest state-of-the-art passports and that perceived profits were due to accounting procedures, and GPO says, quote, "The materials are moved via a secure transportation means including armored vehicles," end quote.
Meanwhile, a former U.S. consular officer has just completed a report on visa violations noting various estimates that a quarter to half of the nation's 12 million-plus illegal immigrants are visa overstays, also ...
DAVID SEMINARA, FMR. FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER: It also does not quantify the huge amounts of foreign nationals that come to the U.S. with tourist visas and work illegally and come back and forth to the United States from their countries and work illegally in the U.S. for several months per year.
SCHIAVONE: Cleared through by time-pressured consular officials after what he says are, on average, two to three-minute interviews.
CUTLER: The way that those counselor officials have to process the applications for visa, it's kind of like "Lucy at the Bonbon factory."
SCHIAVONE: The State Department would not comment on the visa overstay issue.
(on camera): But on the matter of overseas passport assembly, the State Department insists there's nothing to fear. However, Congress is asking for a full accounting of what passport components are made overseas and whether that could threaten national secure.
Louise Schiavone, for CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: After two weeks of violent demonstrations and protests in Tibet, President Bush finally put in a telephone call to the Chinese president, Hu Jintao. President Bush told the communist leader he's concerned about Beijing's crackdown and oppression in Tibet and urged him to talk with the Dalai Lama.
Meanwhile: A new swell of support to boycott China's Olympic Games. Many are wondering why the president is so dismissive of such efforts.
Kitty Pilgrim has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The communist Chinese government released these pictures out of Tibet. The police along the road claim they were just traffic cops.
UNIDENTIFIED CHINESE POLICE (translator): We are just here to apprehend people who have no license or are speeding. PILGRIM: It's been a little less than two weeks since these pictures came out of the area, a brutal crackdown by Chinese police on pro- democracy protesters in Tibet. The human rights abuses there are generating talk of a boycott of Beijing's Olympics.
France's President Nicolas Sarkozy says his country may boycott the opening ceremonies because of the abuses. President Bush still says he plans on attending the Olympics, saying the games are about the athletes, not politics.
The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the same thing: "We must follow the purpose of the Olympics and not politicize the games."
The president's national security adviser wouldn't even discuss the Olympics.
STEPHEN HADLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Olympics or no Olympics, these are important issues that need to be addressed.
SHARON HOM, HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA: There's no way that the president of the United States can go anywhere as just a sports fan. He will be sending a very negative message if he attends without any strong message of concern for the human rights situation.
PILGRIM: Human rights activists say an Olympic boycott is called for over atrocities in Darfur and China's support for the Sudanese government. Filmmaker Steven Spielberg withdrew as artistic adviser of the opening ceremonies because of that issue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was blasted by the Chinese last week for saying, if people don't speak out against the Chinese oppression in Tibet, we've lost all moral authority to speak on behalf of human rights anywhere in the world.
Well, Friday, she said the Chinese government has failed to live up to its commitments to improve human rights conditions in China and Tibet but a boycott of the Beijing Olympics would unfairly harm our athletes who have worked so hard. Lou?
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Let's see. So, she's created an equation between athletic training and human rights oppression.
PILGRIM: Many of the human rights groups oppose this sort of a situation. They say it's about human dignity. The Olympics is about human dignity. And if you don't have human rights, you don't have human dignity.
DOBBS: Well, that seems to be a more palatable equation if one must be drawn. Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
Coming up next: A major victory for the state of Texas fighting, of all people, the Bush administration, over a criminal illegal alien on death row. It turns out, the Supreme Court kind of likes the idea of sovereignty, no matter what this president thinks. And: Will the battle between the Democratic candidates tear the party apart? We'll be talking with Tennessee's governor and superdelegate, Bill Bredesen, next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A critical and important legal victory for the state of the Texas: The United States Supreme Court is ruling that President Bush exceeded his authority when he tried to intervene on behalf of an illegal alien convicted of raping and killing two teenage girls in Texas. President Bush sided with the Mexican citizen.
The case is focusing on the fight over states rights, the jurisdiction of international courts, and the sovereignty of the United States.
Two Republican lawmakers from the state of Texas join us here tonight: Congressman Ted Poe from Houston, and from Austin, Texas, Congressman Michael McCaul.
Gentlemen, thanks for being with us
This is a six-to-three vote. Tell us your feelings tonight and the importance, if you would, Congressman Poe, first, your judgment of the importance of this case, this ruling.
REP. TED POE, (R) TEXAS: It's important for the reasons you mentioned. This was a brutal killing.
The individual that committed this crime confessed. He was proud of it, murdered two teenage girls in 1993. A jury gave him the death penalty. It was upheld by the Supreme Court the first time it went through the court system.
The Mexican government sued the United States in 2003 and said, wait a minute, we don't want him executed because he wasn't allowed to talk to his consulate. The World Court ruled in Mexico's favor.
The president of the United States told the Texas courts to review this case, give the defendant a new hearing. Texas courts said, sorry, we're not going to do it, the president has no jurisdiction over Texas and the Supreme Court agreed, and said the Texas courts don't have to uphold a world court opinion.
DOBBS: As both of you know, Congressman McCaul, I don't have much use for this president. I don't think he's right on much.
But the idea that he would say of the state of which he was governor that that state's laws and U.S. laws would be subordinated to a world court or an international tribune of any kind, does that just stick in your crawl?
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R) TEXAS: I think it does in many crawls. This is about sovereignty of the United States. It's about sovereignty of the state of Texas. The Supreme Court held that the president actually operated outside of his authority. He did not have authority under the Constitution or in that of Congress to impose this as a law of the state of Texas.
Basically, 15 years later after this brutal rape and murder has occurred, justice will be served and it will be served Texas-style and under Texas law. It's a great day for the state of Texas.
DOBBS: It is also, in my opinion, a great day for the United States because, does it not, Congressman Poe, also mean that the United States has, at least one case, establishing its sovereignty independent of an international court?
POE: No question about it. This was a tremendously important case and how the Supreme Court ruled down. Was the Supreme Court going to let the World Court tell courts in the United States what to do or not? And the Supreme Court said, no, that the World Court doesn't have jurisdiction over Texas courts.
As you know, as a former judge, when this case was tried, we took that position. And now the Supreme Court has ruled with us. I think it's a great day, first of all, and most importantly, that the Constitution rules the law in this country, not the World Court, and really, not the president of the United States.
DOBBS: Even though the president of the United States apparently would be thrilled to be outside that Constitution and serving under a world court. Congressman McCaul, what's the reaction amongst the constituents there in Texas?
MCCAUL: Well, I think there was great anger about the case being brought in the first case that the Bush administration didn't side with the state of Texas. But, I think, there's great relief that the Supreme Court has ruled that a world court cannot impose federal or state law in the United States or have any jurisdiction over that.
And let's remember, there are 51 other convicted death row inmates, illegal aliens in this country, whose cases are impacted by this decision. I think that's a very important point to make.
DOBBS: Let me ask you also, Ted Poe, on the issue of Ramos and Compean, still in prison, still awaiting a decision from the appellate court, your thoughts tonight.
POE: This circuit is going to rule shortly, probably within the next 30 days. I think that we will see the same thing about the Fifth Circuit that we saw by the Supreme Court. I expect that Ramos and Compean, border agent cases to be reversed because the federal government - the federal prosecutors hid evidence from the jury and they will be - hopefully, get a new trial within the next 30 to 60 days.
DOBBS: Congressman, thank you very much. Congressman Mike McCaul, thank you for joining us. Thank you, Ted Poe.
Coming up: Is the fighting between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama driving Democratic voters from the party?
Three of the smartest political analysts join me.
And: Ralph Nader, independent candidate for president, will be with me. He says the country's business leaders should be held accountable for the damage they're doing.
And: The Kwame Kilpatrick scandal in Detroit. I'll be talking with the prosecuting attorney about that case against that city's mayor.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LOU DOBBS, CNN, HOST: Well, I suppose this year in a contest for the democratic presidential nomination, I'll start with one of my guests' other titles. He's a democratic superdelegate. And he says the democratic party has a serious problem and he has some solutions to offer up. He's also the governor of the state of Tennessee. Phil Bredesen proposes a superdelegate primary in June where the 795 democratic superdelegates will be casting their vote one way or another and decide their party's nominee. Governor Phil Bredesen is an undeclared superdelegate and joins me now from Nashville. Good to have you here with us.
GOV. PHIL BREDESEN, TENNESSEE: It's great being here, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: You know, I keep thinking about you being undeclared in the state of Tennessee and another governor, Bill Richardson, in a state in which Senator Clinton won the primary. He decided to support Obama. I mean, the democratic party has got a few problems this year, don't you?
BREDESEN: Yes. I think when this whole superdelegate thing was invented, you know, a generation ago, no one quite foresaw it turning out this way. And I guess what I want the party to do is just take it off auto pilot here. We've got a problem and the party has got to step in and find some way to resolve it. But I've put one idea on the table. There certainly are others.
DOBBS: Well, governor, your plan calls for a superdelegate primary in June. Just exactly how would that work?
BREDESEN: Well, the thought simply is, that if it really does come down to superdelegates and it's kind of looking like that's what's going to happen, even though that's not what anybody wants. It's really important, I think, to get us all on the record in June rather than waiting until August. We're all creatures of deadlines and we like to wait until the last possible moment. But it's so difficult for the party and I think so damaging to our prospects in the fall to keep this thing going on through the summer. I think we can bring it to closure, call the superdelegates together. Let the candidates present to them, find out where they are and determine at least morally who's the nominee and let's get on with the process of healing the obvious wounds in our party and running a presidential campaign. DOBBS: Why haven't we heard this idea from the Democratic National Committee? Why are we in a situation in this country in which the democratic party has basically -- has disenfranchised because, for whatever reason, whether it be because the leadership of the parties in both Michigan and Florida violated the rules -- certainly the voters did not of the state. That are now disenfranchised. What in the world is going on with your democratic national committee, your national leadership?
BREDESEN: I don't know. And I'm certainly not criticizing them. I think to bring this thing to closure really is we need only the DNC, only the democratic party has the standing and the moral force to do it. You know, I think there's a tendency to sort of hope that there will be some seismic event or these things will fix themselves. But you know hope isn't a strategy. And I think we need to be planning for the alternative that maybe we have two candidates who both think they can get the nomination in June and plan to spend the summer explaining why the other one is not the right candidate. That can't be helpful to the party.
DOBBS: Not helpful to the party. The polls show, as you know, that a sixth of the delegates, excuse me, a sixth of those who said they will vote for Senator Obama or for Senator Clinton will not go into the general election and vote for any candidate if their candidate is not the nominee. 20% of each of these candidates, both Obama and Clinton, their supporters say they'll vote for McCain. I mean, this looks like a windfall of a huge, huge proportion for senator John McCain.
BREDESEN: Yes. You know, I don't think in the end those numbers will be anywhere near that large. There's a lot of people who are upset now, who if we can get this thing solved in some way, will come back to the fold. Even if it's 2% or 3%, it's a huge problem. These races, these modern races for president are close. They will certainly be close in Tennessee. You know, 2% or 3% can make the difference.
DOBBS: Governor Phil Bredesen, we thank you very much. And it's nice to have somebody out there doing some original thinking, even if it's in politics.
BREDESEN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next, Detroit's mayor charged with multiple felonies. I'll be talking with a prosecutor who brought the charges and its intent upon seeing him out of office.
Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader says our nation's capital is corporate-owned territory. He wants to change all of that and he will be my guest here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader says Washington is simply corporate-owned territory. Nader is running for president to try to change that for middle class Americans and he joins me now from Washington. Thanks for being here, Ralph. RALPH NADER (I) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: We're watching quite a spectacle between the two primary parties, the republican and the democratic parties. Why is it there's no discussion, in your judgment, of the huge financial mess that we're in real terms, in terms of its cause and the fact that these two political parties, the republicans and democrats, are the reason we're in the mess we're in?
NADER: Well, you've answered it. First, they're the cause of it. They didn't apply law and order to Wall Street and allowed Wall Street to risk, keep risking, passing off the risk, getting all these executive bonuses, perverse incentives. And secondly, they don't really intend to do anything about it. Uncle Sam is the final guarantor of corporate capitalism. We don't have capitalism in this country, we have government guaranteed big capitalism. That's just going to hurt the little guy, the homeowner, the worker, the whole globalization scam.
DOBBS: There was cross charges between Obama and Clinton the other day. And the reality is the subprime mortgage lenders, the primary ones in this country donated $1.6 million to Senator Clinton, $1.5 million to Senator Obama and just a little over $500,000 to Senator McCain. How much money did you get from the subprime mortgage lenders?
NADER: Zero. We don't take any commercial money. Contributions come into our website votenader.org from individual Americans around the country just the way our volunteers come, too. Ask to help us in our 50-state campaign. We're between 5% and 6% in the polls now, according to the first polls. We hope to push it to a three-way race if possible and get on those presidential debates. The whole corporate globalization issue is really a mealy-mouthed rhetoric.
You know, here's my definition of corporate globalization and NAFTA and the World Trade Organization agreements, which are all secret in terms of tribunals in Geneva. They open doors between countries in order to create trap doors, like all those contaminated products coming in from China. And your medicines, contaminated seafood, defective tires, no regulation, no food and drug administration inspection of this factory that has already sent out blood thinner, you know, that's destroyed over 20 American lives.
DOBBS: The big issues, investment in public infrastructure. We need at least by the estimates of the Civil Engineers Association $1.6 trillion just to maintain our public infrastructure. We have a public education crisis that is -- it is urgent. It's immediate. It is not something that can wait for the next five years of no child left behind. We have $2 billion in lobbying money being spent in Washington, D.C.. Again, these candidates not addressing those issues with the urgency that a crisis demands, do you think?
NADER: That's why our candidacy is in the field and going into 50 states. I mean, look, the big money is going into the military industrial complex. That's half of the federal government's operating expenditures now. There's no more Soviet Union. Eisenhower was right to warn about it. And you know what, I've never understood. You've got all these public works needs that you just mentioned. I hoped that a lot of these construction companies, these labor unions who would get all of these jobs, good paying jobs repairing sewage treatment systems, drinking water systems, libraries, school, clinics, you name it -- and they can't be exported to China. You'd think they'd create a major lobby here to push for the ending for this boon dog on Iraq that's costing $14 million an hour, an hour, 24 hours a day, that can be put back in communities in this country.
DOBBS: And that website one more time?
NADER: My website is votenader.org. Whether or not you vote for us or not, whether you want to volunteer or contribute money to our campaign, it's going to show a view of the presidential campaign all the way to November that you're not going to see on the other candidates' websites and you're going to see issues.
DOBBS: You're not fooling us for a moment. You want our votes and you want our money.
NADER: Exactly.
DOBBS: OK.
NADER: Exactly. Clean politics, Lou.
DOBBS: there you go. It's overdue. Thanks. Ralph Nader, independent candidate for president.
Up next, the mayor of Detroit facing felony charges. The question now is whether he will resign.
And Barack Obama's pastor. That problem just isn't going away, in part thanks to Senator Obama. I'll be talking to three of the best political analysts in the country. Stay with us, we're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Detroit's Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick pleaded not guilty to felony charges that include perjury, obstruction of justice, misconduct in office. Kilpatrick and his former aide accused of lying under oath about their alleged affair, their role in retaliating against two police officers investigating. Wayne County prosecutor Kym Worthy says this case is not about an affair. It's about lying under oath. Kym Worthy joins me from Detroit. Good to have you with us.
KYM WORTHY, WAYNE COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Thank you.
DOBBS: Let me ask you, these charges, I'm -- having followed the case that the "Detroit Free Press" broke, did your initial information on this case come from the "Detroit Free Press"?
WORTHY: Yes, it did. The "Detroit Free Press" are the ones that broke the story and we began an investigation shortly thereafter. DOBBS: And as we have watched this case unfold, it seems pretty clear that there is at least on the civil side a clear statement that this mayor carried out an adulterous affair with a chief of staff, that an investigation into his conduct by two police officers resulted in their termination and their careers were destroyed and the city had to spend $8 million -- $8.4 million to settle that case. Is that part of this correct to this point?
WORTHY: That's part of our case and certainly we charge four perjury cases, two counts are based on lying under oath at the trial based on the relationship and two counts are based on the lying about the firing of Gary Brown.
DOBBS: And as I watched you enunciate these charges against those folks, I have to tell you, Kym Worthy, I -- my thought was, I would not want you after me. I mean, you are a straightforward, you're very business-like. Is there any political axe in this thing whatsoever?
WORTHY: I don't think -- no, there's not. I mean, basically, this is -- I'm the elected prosecutor for Wayne County which is 43 cities, Detroit is the largest city. I have no axe to grind with anyone. We were simply doing our jobs. It happened in my jurisdiction, so we investigated and we will prosecute it in my jurisdiction.
DOBBS: Then, if you would help us all understand the politics of Detroit. This mayor is on the record as having been adulterous, having carried out an affair with an employee of the city of Detroit. Destroyed the careers of two law enforcement agents. The city cost $8 million and this mayor is promising not to quit, when one would think --
WORTHY: Well, that's part and parcel of what this is about. You know, I have no say and nor should I have any say on whether he resigns or not. But it's an unusual stand, but it's something that we have to deal with. And whether he is the mayor or the ex-mayor, we have to go on with our charges.
DOBBS: And the defense attorney says point blank those text messages between Ms. Beatty, his lover and chief of staff, and the mayor, were -- you gathered them up illegally.
WORTHY: Well, I can't speak for how anybody else got them. I don't think he suggested -- at least I hope he's not suggesting that we obtained them illegally because we certainly didn't. We're a law enforcement legal entity with broad subpoena power and we obtained them legally.
DOBBS: And you have no doubt that they will stand up in court?
WORTHY: I'm not worried about that at all.
DOBBS: All right. And the idea that the jury pool here, because of the notoriety of the mayor -- he is a part of a very prominent political family including Congresswoman Kilpatrick, the head of the National Black Caucus.
WORTHY: Yes.
DOBBS: My gosh, how can you find a jury pool that is not tainted by this case in Detroit?
WORTHY: Well, as you can imagine, this is not our first high profile case. And I'm confident that we'll be able to find a jury right here within Wayne County. And if we can't, we'll have to deal with that in the future. But the law states that we have to try to seat a jury within that county, if we get that far. And I'm confident that we'll be able to do that.
DOBBS: And how soon do you expect to be at trial?
WORTHY: You know, it's hard to say. We received an examination date today of June the 9th. I anticipated that that may take a little bit of time. And here we have a 91-day track. And that means within 91 days after the arraignment on the information we expect this case to be tried. So it should be fairly quickly, but of course I can't guarantee when it will be tried.
DOBBS: Kym Worthy, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate it. Wayne County prosecutor, Kym Worthy.
Still ahead, will the bitter divide in the democratic party mean victory for Senator John McCain come November? That story is next.
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DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts in the country and contributors to "Lou Dobbs Tonight," all, Errol Lewis, columnist "New York Daily News," member of the editorial board, syndicated columnist, Miguel Perez and Diana West of the "Washington Times." Diana also is the author of the book "The Death of the Grownup."
Let's start with Miguel, I think the democratic party has to be breathing a sigh of relief over this weekend. Howard Dean has said that he wants it all wrapped up, this democratic nomination process. He doesn't like this messiness. He wants it wrapped up by July 1st.
MIGUEL PEREZ, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: But he also said this is not a mess that they have.
DOBBS: Then why does he want it cleaned up?
PEREZ: It's amazing. It's not a mess. I don't understand why he is -- exactly. But yes, I mean, it is -- Howard Dean is finally coming around to realizing that he's got a problem obviously. And he -- you know, this is -- look, we have to make sure that this doesn't happen again four years from now. This primary system that we have is just the worst! I mean, we call this a democracy? I mean, it's crazy the way we're electing our --
DOBBS: By the way, how can we call it a democracy because the majority isn't ruling in this country. I mean, every special interest, corporate America, I mean, -- PEREZ: Superdelegates, oh my god.
DOBBS: But the thing about the democratic party, Errol, is it's honest about it. You've got your delegates, actual people actually vote for them and then you have your superdelegates. I mean, you've got to admire that. That's like two classes of stock on Wall Street.
ERROL LOUIS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Not to defend the democratic party, but I think one thing that happened this time that I think surprised everybody -- and turned out to be a good thing, was that parts of the system worked the way they were intended, meaning the first month of primaries where they just kind of went from Iowa to New Hampshire to Nevada to South Carolina, it gave campaigns that didn't really have much of a chance, a chance to kind of get out and be seen. We have the surprise of Barack Obama, who nobody expected to do as well as he did. And then you have this series of big state or larger state primaries that I think that it sort of let more people get involved.
DOBBS: Well, you know, you say that it's not working the way it was intended. I mean, what we're really saying here, it seems to me, in the democratic party -- and by the way, I say we loosely, because I'm an independent. The idea that it's not working because you have two candidates seeking the nomination who are both doing pretty darn well, just not well enough to win the nomination.
LOUIS: Well, I don't know, I think there's some technical fixes to this that obviously need to happen, meaning if you're going to disenfranchise hundreds of delegates --
DOBBS: Florida and Michigan. Howard Dean, are you listening? Florida and Michigan.
LOUIS: But you don't revise downward the number needed to win, then you're going to have a problem. That's something I thought they could have easily changed by moving it down from 2,025. If you throw these out as not necessary, why do you move this far --
DOBBS: Everybody in the democratic party seems to be fond at saying this, rules are rules and anybody who breaks them, Diana West, my golly, there are consequences.
DIANA WEST, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, yes. But on the other hand, I'm not so sure that it's not working in a democratic fashion in the sense that it's not working for accord and harmony behind one candidate. But we are seeing an extremely spirited, fascinating fight. We're testing our candidates. We're seeing their mettle under various revelations --
DOBBS: You're a conservative, aren't you?
WEST: Well, yes. I wish they --
DOBBS: You're loving this. You're loving this.
WEST: Of course.
DOBBS: And I think most independents are loving it.
WEST: Yes.
DOBBS: And maybe even most democrats. What do you think, Miguel?
WEST: I am an independent conservative. But I also wish that the same thing was still going on, on the republican side. We ended up with a GOP presumptive nominee awfully quickly without too much of a scrap.
DOBBS: Well, you know, everybody is complaining about this year, the process. Republicans apparently finishing a bit too early for the comfort of some. The democrats are not finishing at all. Could it be -- now, this is just a wild question. I apologize for it. Could it be it's not the process, it's not the system, it's that 300 million people, this great society of ours, has produced such unattractive candidates that's causing some of the angst?
PEREZ: Entirely possible. I think it's very possible, in fact, that a lot of people are dissatisfied. And I think that is precisely what's happening in the democratic race. I mean, nobody is really, really happy with either one of these two candidates. Otherwise, one of them would have an overwhelming lead. So, you know, it's not that they're both too good. I think they're both lacking a lot.
WEST: I thought all along we were hearing that democrats were actually quite happy with both their choices. You know, there's a big battle between them, but they were quite happy with either one.
DOBBS: They may be happy, but in the most -- two most recent polls, Errol, we find that one in six supporters of each of these candidates will not even go to the polls in November if their candidate is not the nominee and one in every five supporters of each of these candidates of each of these candidates will vote for John McCain rather than the other candidate if their candidate isn't the nominee.
LOUIS: Yes, that's right. 20% to 22% of Barack Obama supporters say they won't vote for Hillary Clinton if she were the nominee. And the reverse is true pretty much for her supporters. And you know, it does point to this large phenomenon that you and others have talked about, which is this fragmenting of the party system and the rise of the independents. I mean the independents have swung so many of these contests --
DOBBS: Rise of the independents. I love the sound of that.
LOUIS: I mean, it's just true. When you look at state after state that allows them in, rather than casts them out to the side, they're swinging primary votes. They're really sort of functioning as a sort of a third party that can go any which way it wants. And that's a good thing, too, another unintended consequence of the primary system.
PEREZ: I think that what race comes out there very clearly. Because if you look at the number of Hillary voters who would vote for McCain, what that tells me is they would not vote for a black person. So I think race is a major -- what those figures show is that as opposed to African-Americans who would still vote for Hillary, 19% of them would not, but 28% is the number for Hillary -- Hillary voters who would go for McCain. It tells me these are voters who are going to vote for a white person.
LOUIS: And you know, I think.
WEST: I think.
DOBBS: Go ahead, Errol.
LOUIS: I see the defect in the process a little differently. I think that things kind of went off the rails after super Tuesday or really two weeks after, meaning, again, I think the first four primaries were sort of well intentioned and they worked well. They focused on different kinds of states, different parts of the country. Then you have the super Tuesday. And then you have the string of contests that Obama happened to win. But I think where things have gone off the rails is when we have this month or really seven weeks where there's nothing to do except listen to the press spin this thing around, have the camps fire at each other.
DOBBS: We're in the media. Isn't that the job of the politicians? Come on.
LOUIS: I tell you, you know, if I could recommend one change in all of this, it would be to sort of pace it with all of the care that was put into that first month and sort of decide, look, we're not going to let any period go where there aren't debates, where there isn't substance and bring the thing to a halt at a point where you feel like the issues have been aired and all of them both --
DOBBS: Do you really believe the lack of substance is the problem of the press or these two candidates?
LOUIS: Well, I think it's a combination, frankly. It really is. Yes.
WEST: Yes.
DOBBS: You get the last word, Diana, as you agree with Errol.
WEST: Well, I think I would just like to go back to Miguel's comment. I wouldn't tar Hillary but I'm not one to defend Hillary voters very often but I wouldn't tar them as racists for not voting for Obama any more than I would tar Obama voters who wouldn't vote for Hillary as sexist of racists themselves. So, I think we need a few more tea leaves in the mix before we make that kind of a statement.
DOBBS: Yes. it's sort of interesting because the inferential logic is just that you believe then as someone is voting for Barack Obama because he is black and then that would be the basis to suggest that they were being racist when they were not. You know, going back to Errol's point, maybe that's right. It's just that people are thinking too hard, too long and too granularly about nonsense. The fact is, I'm going to go back to what I said before. You give us better candidates, I'll give you a better primary process. Thank you very much. Miguel, thank you for being with us. Errol, thank you. Diana, thank you very much.
And thank you for joining us. Join us here tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Enjoy your weekend, good night from New York.
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