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Lou Dobbs This Week
Border Patrol Case; Campaign Happenings; Texas Compound Raid
Aired April 19, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight: Troubling new concerns in the case of former Border Patrol agents: Ramos and Compean, giving harsh prison sentences for wounding an illegal alien drug smuggler. That smuggler, the government's key witness against the agents has pleaded guilty to smuggling drugs while he was testifying against those agents under prosecutorial immunity.
And: Some U.S. senators are selling out what's left of our middle class. Those senators are demanding the importation of even more cheap labor, to replace well-paid American job.
We'll have all of that and much more: straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debate, and opinion. Here now: Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Senator Obama tonight, is trying to shift the campaign agenda after a fiery debate with Senator Clinton in which he spent much of the time on the defense. Senator Obama facing a barrage of questions about his controversial pastor, his "bitter" voter remarks, his relationship with a former member of a terrorist group, and his refusal to wear a lapel pin with the American flag on it.
Senator Obama accused the moderators of the debate of playing what he called "gotcha games." Afterwards, Obama launched a counter-offense of his own against Senator Clinton, trying to win Tuesday's primary and the contests in Indiana and North Carolina as well as Pennsylvania.
Suzanne Malveaux has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After a bruising debate in Pennsylvania initially focused on Barack Obama's gaffes and controversies, the senator stopped playing defense.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D-IL) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It took us 45 minutes before we even started talking about a single issue that matters to the American people.
MALVEAUX: Then Obama went after Hillary Clinton directly.
OBAMA: Well, now, she was taking every opportunity to get a dig in there. That's her right to kind of twist the knife a little bit. MALVEAUX: Despite the night's tense exchanges, Obama tried to convince voters he was unfazed.
OBAMA: You just kind of have to let it -- you know.
MALVEAUX: But after an audience member asked Obama what his strategy was, after he was, in her words, pummeled in the debate, Obama struck a more strident tone.
OBAMA: If the Republicans come at me, I will come right back at them, and I will come at them hard.
MALVEAUX: During the debate, Clinton insisted questions about Obama's patriotism, his controversial pastor, and his characterization of small town Pennsylvanians as "bitter" were all fair game since they addressed Obama's electability. After making her points last night, Senator Clinton made no mention of her fiery exchanges with Obama today.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D-NY) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We really wanted to have a conversation and to talk about some of the issues that families face because...
MALVEAUX: At Haverford College with daughter Chelsea, she talked about fighting breast cancer, reading advice columns and avoiding fashion faux pas. She waxed poetic about her Pennsylvania roots.
CLINTON: I was in Scranton where my father was born and raced, and where my grandfather came as an immigrant when he was 2-years-old.
MALVEAUX: Despite Clinton's admission during the debate that she believes Obama could beat Republican John McCain...
CLINTON: Yes, yes, yes.
MALVEAUX: She is even more determined to explain why he shouldn't, why she would make the better nominee. And for now, she's doing that with honey, not vinegar.
(on camera): Since both candidates emerged from the debate in general agreement over issues like withdrawing soldiers from Iraq and also refusing to tax the middle class, the main focus has become character, as both campaigns have competed with e-mails and conference calls with reporters accusing the other of behaving badly.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Greenville, North Carolina
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Senator McCain is trying to take advantage of the division in the Democratic Party. He's pushing a new populist agenda. That's right, populist. Senator McCain announced a new economic plan designed to win the support of middle class voters. His plan includes a holiday on gasoline taxes and major reforms of our income tax system.
Dana Bash has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a new twist in pocketbook politics. John McCain says he wants a summertime suspension of the federal gas tax, hoping voters will reward him this fall.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R-AZ) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because the cost of gas affects the price of food, packaging and just about everything else, these immediate steps will help to spread relief across the American economy.
BASH: McCain aides say he'll introduce Senate legislation soon, which would save consumers 18.4 cents a gallon for gas, 24.4 cents for diesel from Memorial Day through Labor Day.
But the reality is gas tax holidays have been pushed many times before and never enacted because it funds federal roads. It was one of several tax breaks McCain proposed in this much-anticipated address, laying out his economic policies and hitting Democrats for theirs.
MCCAIN: They're going to raise your taxes by thousands of dollars a year and they have the audacity to hope you don't mind.
BASH: In addition to make permanent the Bush tax cuts McCain once opposed, he wants to eliminate the alternative minimum tax, which McCain says would save middle class families $2,000 a year, double the exemption for each child from $3,500 to $7,000 a year, cut the corporate tax rate and invest in research and development.
McCain advisers say that would cost $225 billion, though one Democratic group estimates $300 billion. To raise revenue, affluent Medicare recipients would pay more for prescription drugs.
MCCAIN: Those who can afford to buy their prescription drugs should be expected to do so.
BASH: And in an appeal to independents and disillusioned Republicans, McCain repeatedly vowed to cut wasteful spending.
MCCAIN: Somewhere along the way, too many Republicans in Congress became indistinguishable from the big-spending Democrats they used to oppose.
BASH (on camera): McCain said he would freeze all non-defense discretionary spending for one year while the government reviewed the effectiveness of federal programs. But some things were noticeably absent from this speech, like the pledge McCain once made to balance the budget in his first term or any discussion at all about the billions of dollars being spent for the war in Iraq.
Dana Bash, CNN, Pittsburgh.
(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: As Dana reported, Senator McCain is a strong critic of government waste, particularly in the Pentagon. Tonight, there are new concerns the Pentagon is wasting billions of dollars on expensive and unnecessary private contractors. Congressional investigators are also concerned about potential conflicts of interest.
Barbara Starr has our report from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Iraq, contractors keep the troops drive fuel convoys and analyze intelligence about insurgents.
But investigators at the Government Accountability Office as well as lawmakers, warn the Defense Department is now so overrun with contractors, there is a growing risk taxpayers are getting ripped off because nobody really knows how much contractors are doing. At the Army's own contracting office, the GAO found 40 percent of the employees were contractors themselves overseeing other contractors.
Peter Singer has written extensively on military contractor.
PETER SINGER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: We, so far, have hired contractors in any situation where they can do the job. We haven't stepped back and said, "Is this something they should be doing?"
STARR: These are the top Pentagon contractors. Together, they do as much as $130 billion a year in business and it doesn't include $47 billion the U.S. is spending to rebuild Iraq.
Senator Joe Lieberman warned: "The government might not even know when the self-interests of contractors are pitted against the interests of the American taxpayer."
In the last month alone, the GAO has had three separate reviews of conflicts of interest in the defense industry. In one report, the GAO found that in 15 of 21 Pentagon offices, contractors outnumbered federal employees and made up as much as 80 percent of the workforce.
Analysts say military contractors are performing financial oversight of other contractors and often making the best decisions for themselves and not for taxpayers.
SINGER: The concern is that we're locking ourselves into a cycle because of these issues of competition, of unintended consequences where we get wrapped up in the circle of "can't win with them, can't go to war without them."
STARR (on camera): DOD officials say there's so much pressure to keep the government small, they have to really on outside contractors. A retired army major for example can make as much as $200,000 a year, as a contractor, a lot more than that army major is going to be paid to remain on active duty. So, a lot of military people don't mind becoming contractors these days.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Up next: Stunning new developments in the case of imprisoned Border Patrol agents: Ramos and Compean. We'll have complete coverage.
And: Outrage after some senators demand the importation of even more cheap foreign labor into the United States.
And: The Bush administration refusing to pay for urgently needed reforms to ensure the integrity of our voting system before the general election in November.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A stunning development this week in the case of the imprisoned Border Patrol agents: Ramos and Compean. Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, an illegal alien drug smuggler and the government's key witness against those two agents who wounded him pleaded guilty to federal drug smuggling charges while he had immunity from the prosecutors for his testimony against those agents.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Osvaldo Aldrete Davila was caught smuggling marijuana in 2005 by former Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean in Fabens, Texas. Davila, an illegal alien from Mexico, scuffled with the agents, fled and was shot and wounded before crossing the Rio Grande back into the Mexico.
Ramos and Compean received 11 and 12-year prison sentences for shooting multiple times at someone who the government says was unarmed and had previously tried to surrender. Also, they did not properly report the shooting.
Davila was given immunity by federal prosecutors to testify against the agents. Judge Kathleen Cardone granted a motion from the prosecution to bar the jurors from hearing testimony about Davila's drug-smuggling history, a key blow to Ramos and Compean's defense.
While under immunity, Davila continued to smuggle drugs into the United States. He's now pled guilty to four felonies that carry a maximum sentence of 40 years and $2 million each.
MONICA RAMOS, WIFE OF IGNACIO RAMOS: We waited for this time. We knew eventually it would come. I guess it's just an additional step right now in vindicating my husband's innocence.
WIAN: Sources close to the investigation say Davila is expected to be sentenced to between six and 10 years based on his promised cooperation with federal prosecutors investigating drug-trafficking organizations. Neither Davila's defense attorney nor prosecutors would comment.
JOHN GIBSON, ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: I can't make any comment one way or the other...
WIAN: Federal prosecutors admitted to an appeals court that Davila told some lies on the stand. He is suing the Border Patrol for $5 million because he was shot. Two sources tell LOU DOBBS TONIGHT prosecutors have offered to pay Davila's medical expenses, but nothing more. Davila's civil attorney denies that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Family members and other supporters of Ramos and Compean believe the guilty plea is part of an effort to prevent Aldrete Davila from being questioned about his testimony in the Border Patrol agents' case. Aldrete Davila's drug-smuggling background and the fact that information was withheld from a jury is a key component of the Ramos- Compean appeal. Aldrete Davila is scheduled to be sentenced July 16th, Lou.
DOBBS: Aldrete Davila -- to keep from testifying, in what way could we see that he would have to testify?
WIAN: Well, if this case went to trial and he had to disclose all of the information that was kept from the jury in the Ramos and Compean case about his drug smuggling history, about the fact that he's not a low level drug mule who was doing a one-time deal to help out his sick mother and perhaps pay...
DOBBS: All the other nonsense.
WIAN: Yes. All that stuff...
DOBBS: All the other nonsense the prosecutor put forward.
WIAN: If that comes out in a public forum, then that gives more credence to the Ramos and Compean appeal. We don't know that the appellate court judges would actually...
DOBBS: Well, let me be clear. This may not be a courtroom. But it is a public forum. And we're putting that information right in front of the appellate court, correct?
WIAN: Absolutely. And the appellate judges are clearly looking at that information. When that appeals case was argued back in December, it was clear that that's what they were looking at. The fact that this information was kept from the jury, the fact that the government presented a very questionable case, I believe was the word of one of the appeals court judges, so they're looking at it, Lou.
DOBBS: That appellate court looks like the best hope for reason and a sense of justice to prevail here. One would hope that appellate court could reach to that trial judge who permitted the sealing of this evidence. Come on, she had to have better judgment than that.
And to this prosecutor, who allowed his deputy prosecutors to run rough shot over every sense of the word fair and correct and appropriate in the way in which she went after these law enforcement agents of the United States government. It's disgusting.
Well, Casey, thanks a lot. A terrific job reporting on this case throughout. Thank you, sir.
U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton who prosecuted this case against the agents, Ramos and Compean, prosecuted another law enforcement officer for doing his job.
And in Rock Spring, Texas, Deputy Sheriff Gilbert Hernandez, he had dared opened fire on a vehicle trying to run him down and kill him. The vehicle was carrying illegal aliens. One illegal alien in that vehicle was slightly injured when he fired his weapon.
A local investigation, however, found no wrongdoing by Deputy Hernandez. But the Mexican consulate then pressured federal officials over the incident and the U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton stepped into the scene. And he then brought charges against Deputy Hernandez.
Hernandez was ultimately convicted of violating the civil rights of the injured illegal alien. Hernandez was sentenced to a year in prison. He was released late last year. There's been no prosecution of the illegal aliens who tried to kill him.
Senator John Cornyn, also of Texas, tonight, is fighting on another issue. He wants to bring more foreign workers into this country, cheap foreign labor. Senator Cornyn claims American business needs what he now calls "emergency relief" in the form of more cheap foreign labor.
But as Bill Tucker now reports, there's absolutely no shortage of skilled American labor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator John Cornyn thinks business needs some emergency relief. Senators Chuck Hagel, Judd Gregg, and Joe Lieberman agree. Hence, Senate Bill 2839 or "The Global Competitiveness Act of 2008." It doesn't quite do what Microsoft's Bill Gates wants to see done with the H-1B Visa Program, a foreign guest worker program for skilled workers.
BILL GATES, MICROSOFT: Even though it may not be realistic, I don't think there should be any limit.
TUCKER: But it would expand the cap by 77 percent, from 65,000 to 115,000 starting next year. The bill is being offered, Cornyn says, because American hi-tech companies have thousands of unfilled positions. Yet studies done by the Urban Institute, the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, the Duke's Pratt School of Engineering, all came to a similar conclusion -- there is no shortage of skilled American workers.
VIVEK WADHWA, DUKE UNIVERSITY: So far, I've seen no research study which showed that there was a shortage of engineers in the USA. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, maybe some local regional shortages, but there's no shortages that I know of. If there were shortages, (INAUDIBLE).
TUCKER: Worker activists groups say the picture painted by big business doesn't match the reality they are seeing and hearing.
PRIYANKA JOSHI, WASHTECH: I get meals from all over the country with people who are very well educated, who have American education and they have no jobs at all.
TUCKER: There is currently no mention of emergency relief for American workers, even though the phrase "emergency relief" seems to be the new trend in visa talk in Washington, D.C.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Emergency relief was the justification used by the Department of Homeland Security when it announced a rule change without public comment, increasing to 29 months, the times that foreign graduating students could stay and work in this country after they graduated.
But we can report that LOU DOBBS TONIGHT has learned that a coalition of worker activists are preparing a lawsuit to challenge the DHS rule change.
Lou, we're seeing that the workers are finally learning, they're going to have to stand up and speak for themselves in the absence of a Congress that will not stand up for them.
DOBBS: Yes, the middle class working to amend (ph) this finally, had better clearly get this message if we haven't been able to successfully deliver it over the course of the past six years. That is, that you simply do not have representation in Washington, D.C., a handful of senators, a handful of congressmen, but that's it, and certainly this administration, vowed enemies of working people.
Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.
Up next here: Pope Benedict XVI. Well, he's mixing religion and politics on his first trip to this country. We'll tell you how the pope is blasting our society, our immigration policy and a little more, as well.
And: Democracy at risk. The Bush administration is blocking congressional efforts to fund a paper trail for those e-voting machines to ensure the integrity of our voting system. But who needs that in a presidential election year?
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: For years, we've reported here on the risk that electronic voting poses to the integrity of our nation's election. But the White House is now blasting an emergency piece of legislation that would have helped for a switch to paper ballots this year. So far, no federal legislation has been passed that would require electronic voting to have paper trails.
Kitty Pilgrim has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bill is not passed.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The House voted down a bill to help states pay for a switch to paper ballots in November. It passed with unanimous bipartisan support and committee, but at the last minute, a White House memo torpedoed the bill, saying the $600 million bill was too costly.
Congressman Rush Holt who introduced the bill was outraged.
REP. RUSH HOLT, (D) NEW JERSEY: There is no reason why this should have been turned into a partisan issue. But evidently, the Republicans chose to do so.
PILGRIM: The White House memo says there's unspent money left from previous programs to help states with elections. Some Democrats question the White House cost benefit analysis.
REP. JAY INSLEE, (D) WASHINGTON: The other side of the aisle has welcomed spending $300 million to verify ballots in Iraq and Baghdad, but they won't spend a nickel to verify ballots in Florida and Seattle and New York.
REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY, (D) ILLINOIS: I think the worst thing for a democracy is for people to feel after the election, some doubt about whether or not their precious vote has actually been counted.
REP. ROBERT WEXLER, (D) FLORIDA: This vote by the Republicans today is an enormous setback for voter verified paper trails and the integrity of our elections.
PILGRIM: Republicans fought in the floor debate to kill the bill partly because the election is just seven months away.
REP. ROY BLUNT, (R) ASST. MINORITY LEADER: The very worst time to change a voting system is an election that has overwhelming participation as we believe this one will.
PILGRIM: Voter activists say without a paper trail, the November election is at risk.
SUSAN GREENHALGH, VOTERACTION.ORG: There are states across the country that do not have the ability to audit the results and we can never know if those results were correct.
PILGRIM: Kitty Pilgrim, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Time now for some your thoughts. Bob in Pennsylvania: "Lou, I would like to thank you for having the guts to call Obama on the carpet about his "bitter" statement. I'm so sick and tired of Obama getting a free pass. I can promise you this: if Obama wins I will cast my vote on McCain. I would rather have four more years of Bush than vote in someone who looks down on me."
James in New York said: "Dear Lou, tell Mr. Obama I go to church because of faith, not because I'm bitter. Perhaps Mr. Obama should explain why he went to his church."
And Thomas in Kentucky: "Dear Lou, I'm a retired army first sergeant and commander of the local American legion. I just wanted to tell you how proud I am of you for telling it like it is. And I would like to commend you for continuing to wear the American flag lapel pin. You're the only one let me tell on TV that still wears 'old glory." Lou, I salute you."
Thank you and send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts here later.
And join me on the radio, Monday through Friday, for "The Lou Dobbs Show" each afternoon. Go to LouDobbs.com to find the local listings for "The Lou Dobbs Show" on the radio near you.
Up next: Democratic National Committee chairman, Howard Dean. He wants those superdelegates to decide now who they'll support. Our panel of political analysts will assess that.
And: Senator Bob Casey joins me, the senator from Pennsylvania supporting Barack Obama. We'll see what he thinks just days before the Pennsylvania primary.
And Congressman Ted Poe joins me, as well, leading the campaign for the released of imprisoned former Border Patrol agents: Ramos and Compean.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROB MARCIANO, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Rob Marciano at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Here are the headlines at this hour.
Pope Benedict is reaching out to the youth today. He appeared at a rally with young Catholic in Yonkers. He blessed about 50 disabled youngsters. Benedict started the day with a mass at New York's St. Patrick's Cathedral.
And: A major threat from radical Shiite cleric, Muqtada al Sadr. Tonight, Sadr is threatening to declare to start a war unless the Iraqi government stops fighting militia groups, including his own Mehdi Army. In the meantime, the deadly fighting continues in Shiites strongholds in Baghdad and Basra tonight.
And: A Texas judge says children seized from a polygamist sect will be held in protective custody, at least for now. She's ordering DNA tests on all 416 children to determine the identity of their parents. The next hearing on custody and abuse allegations is June 5th.
I'm Rob Marciano. "Lou Dobbs This Week" returns.
LOU DOBBS, CNN, HOST: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts in the country. "New York Daily News" columnist and "Lou Dobbs Tonight" contributor Errol Louis, syndicated columnist and "Lou Dobbs" contributor Miguel Perez and in our D.C. bureau, "Washington Times" columnist, "Lou Dobbs Tonight" contributor, Diana West. Also, the author of "The death of the Grown-up." Good to all have you all with us. Let's start with the Pope wrapping up his visit this weekend. What do you make of it, Errol? What's he trying to accomplish here?
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Well, there are about 60 million Catholics here. So you've got to get out and sort of visit the franchise, you know, if you're running an organization of that size and importance. I think he also did try to make amends and address directly in a way that was very unusual the sex scandals that have plagued the Catholic Church and he actually apologized to sort of really put it out there. Now, he's still gotten a lot of criticism. There are people who say he said he'll do whatever is possible, which is not the same as saying...
DOBBS: He'll do the right thing.
LOUIS: He'll fix it. Right. But it was an important moment for a lot of Catholics. I know it was a huge boost here in New York when he came through and addressed the U.N. despite the fact that they tide up traffic all over the city.
DOBBS: And Miguel, here he is, I guess, in many ways insulting the country, talking about the need to be welcoming, taking up the issue of illegal immigration without any comparison to the rest of the world. What was your reaction?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: On the subject of illegal immigration, you have to remember that a lot of Hispanics are Catholic and he needs to approach that constituency and that's what he was doing, basically saying, look, we need compassion and the church has been preaching compassion for illegal immigrants for years. But another thing that does bother me about his comments is his attitude that American society or American television, the crime on our television should be somehow unexcused for the behavior of our American priests. I don't see how he ties those two things together.
DOBBS: Diana, your thoughts?
DIANA WEST, "WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, yes. I haven't actually read his comments about the television and the violence and so on. But it may be that he's just discussing the general degradation of cultural messages in general and that we are all creatures of our time and with various loosening, maybe he's trying to make some sort of case in the sense that the priests were not immune to that. I don't know. I don't like his comments on illegal immigration. I think though overall, his main message has been one of trying to reinject spirituality, religious beliefs into our notions of political right and wrong. I think that's what he was getting at in the U.N. address.
DOBBS: Political rights and wrong? We don't have any problems with that.
WEST: Human rights. Human rights.
DOBBS: Do we Errol?
LOUIS: Oh, I would say so. I mean, listen, the whole thing about this meddlesome priests. You know, these Popes and these Jeremiah Wrights and these other people is that they adhere to this doctrine that is explicitly other worldly. They are not interested in whether or not illegal immigration works as far as American policy. They have this radical call to take care of the poor, to take care of the immigrants and the prisoners and the suffering. And it's really, you know, it's this devil-may-care almost in a way that they will stand in the face, I mean, on abortion, on every issue, on war and peace.
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, we got to slide to a stop here for just a second. Check the transmission. Aren't churches about spiritual needs? Isn't it all about saving souls? When did they become political activists? Come on. When you know, come on, the truth of the matter is, we've got enough fools running around who have programs, social programs, social engineering, all sorts of issues. But all they do is perpetuate these problems of poverty and the lack of education. And they are failing in this country miserably. To have a Pope, a Jeremiah Wright or any other minister sitting here talking about politics is outside the purview of the national tradition, which is separation of church and state. Does anybody remember that either in the Catholic Church, in Jeremiah Wright's church or any other church?
LOUIS: Well, if the Pope were American, that would mean something.
DOBBS: Well, he's in America, partner. And you know what, when we're in Rome, we'll do as Rome does. But when Rome comes to America, how about a little salute and stay out of our politics. What do you think of that idea?
LOUIS: Well, you can send him that message. I don't know that he'd listen.
DOBBS: I don't care if he listens or not, but I'm going to send him the message because I really don't appreciate the bad manners of a guest telling me in this country and my fellow citizens what to do.
LOUIS: You know, it's interesting. You know, when they lay out these --
DOBBS: Particularly when he has a houseful of things to get in order.
LOUIS: No doubt. But you know, when they lay out these prescriptions on the controversial issues of the day, the death penalty, abortion, immigration, you know, all general cultural degradation. Again, it's not intended to sort of be a program that somebody can follow. It's intended to sort of lay out the position and to stake out the church's position. What people choose to...
DOBBS: If he just wants to add to the noise, that's fine. But we need are people talking about real, real resolutions.
LOUIS: It's very telling though. I mean, just one more thing. On the day that he arrived, the Supreme Court voted to reinstate the death penalty in a Kentucky case. A majority of the members - I mean, all of the Catholic members of the Supreme Court voted for execution, which is directly contrary to the church's position.
DOBBS: Now we've got the death penalty brought into these controversial issues in the church position. We're going to have even more with our panel to take up here in just a moment as Senator Bob Casey joins me to tell me and you why he's supporting Senator Barack Obama even after those comments that Obama made about small town Americans and their silly perspectives on life. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back with Errol Louis, Miguel Perez and Diana West. Let me say the Tuesday primary in Pennsylvania, absolutely pivotal. In point of fact, I believe, for both of these senators, don't you?
PEREZ: Yes and no, Lou. Listen, nothing is really going to happen there. Whoever wins is going to win by a very small margin. Obama is still going to have a tremendous lead and I think the writing is on the wall for Senator Clinton.
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, what is this tremendous lead? It's 130 delegates. Neither one of these senators can reach --
PEREZ: She still needs to win by humongous margins in every primary and she doesn't look like she's going to.
DOBBS: No. It doesn't look like she's going to and it doesn't look like he's going to either. Neither one of them can get to the threshold for a nomination can they?
PEREZ: Yes, but then it's up to the superdelegates to turn over the popular vote and that is a disaster for the democratic party.
DOBBS: All right. What do you think?
LOUIS: Well, there are about 250 uncommitted superdelegates. So, even that pool is shrinking. Obama has picked up about 80 since super Tuesday. Senator Clinton has picked up maybe half a dozen.
DOBBS: Our numbers actually, as you know these all vary. But ours have Obama picking up 65 while she's actually lost net three during that period.
LOUIS: Well, the sum of it though is that, you know, even if you split the remaining uncommitted super delegates down the middle.
DOBBS: They can't win. LOUIS: Right. So, there's going to have to be some kind of leadership here. You know, the chair -
DOBSB: Luckily, you got Howard Dean of the democratic party to provide that. Aren't you amazed right now that the democrats around the country are saying, golly, I m glad Howard Dean is there for me.
LOUIS: Well, he certainly gets -
DOBBS: Because he has only disenfranchised two states. You got 48 to go.
WEST: He tries to crack the whip. Right.
LOUIS: Look, he's certainly pushing, whether he gets what he wants, which is a quick solution, remains to be seen.
DOBBS: Diana.
WEST: Well, he's trying to crack the whip. You know, it just remains to be seen. They're trying to bring these people into some order of orderly fashion behind, I suppose, Senator Obama in ending this dispute, but the voters don't seem to want that. We've seen polls coming out of Pennsylvania telling us that voters want both of these two candidates to stay in, even if --
DOBBS: And keep going, no matter what.
WEST: And keep going, keep going, healthy
DOBBS: By the way, how rational, how healthy, as put it, Diana, for precisely that reason, why is there this idea that there should be a rush? If neither candidate can get to the nomination, we also have the other implicit question that isn't being asked in the national media, Miguel. What if neither one of these candidates have been -- they've been promoted as the dream team. What if they in point of fact are the nightmare team?
PEREZ: Well, Lou, and if they do team together in the end, one as vice president, I think it will be the nightmare team. Because it will be so hypocritical of these two people who have been attacking each other for so long to all of a sudden say oh, now we're going to sing Cumbaya together. You know, it's ridiculous. I think it's getting to the point now where we know it's going to be just one. And --
DOBBS: Who is that nominee, do you think? We got the primary coming up on Tuesday.
PEREZ: I think it's Obama's to lose right now. I think he's got it.
DOBBS: Do you agree with that?
PEREZ: I mean, frankly, in my opinion, I think Hillary should draw back. LOUIS: I think not only does --
DOBBS: You do?
LOUIS: I think not only is Miguel probably right, but a majority of voters who are being polled now, about 62 percent are saying they think he's going to be the eventual nominee. So, the momentum is going to shift and he himself for the first time has said he thinks he can wrap this up on May 6th.
DOBBS: Diana West, you get the last word.
WEST: I think that it looks like Senator Obama, it's definitely his to lose, but you can never underestimate the Clintons.
DOBBS: All right. Diana West, thank you very much. Errol Louis, thank you. Miguel Perez, thank you.
Up next, Senator Bob Casey joins me on why he still supports Senator Barack Obama even after those controversial remarks about small town Pennsylvania, working men and women and their families. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, we've just been reporting to you the guilty plea of drug smuggler Oswaldo Aldrete-Davila, a key government witness against former border patrol agents Ramos and Compean. Congressman Ted Poe among those leading extensive efforts to have those two agents released from prison, their names cleared. He joins me now. What in the world is going on in Texas? This doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
REP. TED POE (R), TEXAS: It doesn't make a lick of sense. And this drug dealer was portrayed to the jury that a mule that for a couple of hundred bucks brought a load of drugs in to help his poor sick mother back in Mexico which is a whole lie. And the jury thought he was a small time dealer. The U.S. attorney's office knew that he was a major player. They kept that from the jury. The star witness not only lied but was misrepresented. The jury should have known about his background. And it's very unfortunate that they hid this truth from the jury.
DOBBS: Let me say before you go further because I should have pointed out, that the Congressman Poe is a former judge, former prosecutor and knows where of he speaks.
I need to remind our viewers of that fact. This -- will this play at all into the doggone appeal that's going on in the Fifth Circuit right now for Ramos and Compean?
POE: I certainly hope so. It may not be as important to the judges on appeal as maybe we would think, but it shows that the guy was a criminal, a drug dealer, he lied to the U.S. attorney's office, and misrepresented -- he was misrepresented to the American public when he testified. And so, he's going to go to prison. He will get less time than both the border agents are already serving. But it will play in the fact that --
DOBBS: Do you think that's baked into this deal?
POE: Yes.
DOBBS: Johnny Sutton told me there hadn't been a plea deal.
POE: Well, the sentence range is up to 10 years in prison which is less than either one of the border agents got. So, I think that he will get less time than they got but the Court of Appeals, that this circuit of appeals, I think in the end of the day will reverse its case. Mainly because the U.S. attorney's office misled the jury, get the evidence from the jury that this guy is a major drug dealer.
DOBBS: You know, is there such a thing as fraud when the U.S. attorney brings a case? Because I mean, these people lied. They lied in front of that jury. They lied apparently to the investigators from the Department of Homeland Security. Then the inspector general, as you well know, for the Department of Homeland Security lied to the United States congress, including you.
POE: That's right.
DOBBS: I mean, this smells to high heaven.
POE: It does. And it looks -- in my opinion, it looks politically corrupt to do this. And --
DOBBS: Well, should we -- congressman, should we have a federal investigation of the prosecution, of the Department of Homeland Security, of this entire situation? I mean, I even talked to the sector chief of the border patrol. He didn't even have any regard for his own agents. I don't know even know what planet he was from.
POE: Well, I hope congress continues to investigate this case. There will be congressional hearings. We'll air all this out and see what the political motive or the motive was to try the wrong people the first time. They should have tried the drug dealer the first time. The whole case was based on the drug dealer's testimony. He's the only one that said that he didn't have a gun. He's the only one that they could rely on and now we know he's a known liar and a known drug dealer. And it's unfortunate the whole U.S. attorney's case was based on this person, this person who presented fraud to the jury when he testified.
DOBBS: Well, congressman, thank you for being here. Thank you for all your efforts that you do in leading the efforts to free Ramos and Compean. We appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Congressman Ted Poe.
POE: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up, Obama supporter Senator Bob Casey of Pennsylvania on his state's primary coming up Tuesday. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Well, Senator Obama hasn't apologized for his controversial remarks about Pennsylvania voters. His comments could have an effect on his performance in Pennsylvania's primary. One of the senator's biggest supporters is Senator Bob Casey, a Pennsylvanian who has endorsed Senator Obama. He joins me now from Capitol Hill. Senator Casey, great to have you with us.
SEN. BOB CASEY (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Great to be with you, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: Your candidate right now by most reports, anyway, is anywhere between 20 and 5 points back of Senator Clinton. How do you think he's going to do?
CASEY: Well, I think he'll do well in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure he can win it. It's certainly an uphill fight. I do think though it's very important for Senator Obama as it would be for Senator Clinton to lay a foundation in Pennsylvania for the fall because it's a big and diverse, an essential state for a democrat in November. So, I think this contest has helped whoever the nominee will be. I hope that's Senator Obama.
DOBBS: All right.
CASEY: It will help for the fall.
DOBBS: Who do you think these comments helped in this contest in Pennsylvania? "It's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. Who do you think will be helped by those comments/
CASEY? Well, Lou, I think I would leave that to the pundits. But I do think that it's pretty clear that he expressed regret for those words and I think what he was trying to express was something that I know you care about and I care about, the frustration and the anxiety that people feel about this economy. The economy is in recession. You see jobs shift oversees over and over again in a state like Pennsylvania and I think he was trying to express that frustration. But I do think that in the end, the people of Pennsylvania want to hear about the issues. They want to hear about trade. They want to hear who has been for NAFTA and when. They want to hear more about health care. They want to hear about jobs.
I don't think that voters in Pennsylvania are going to hold one sentence or two sentences or even a paragraphs against Senator Obama. I think they're going to look at the totality of his record as well as his values.
DOBBS: Well, the problem with that record is there isn't much of a record there, is it? I mean, he really doesn't --
CASEY: I don't agree, but go ahead.
DOBBS: Well I mean, he's got some statements and he's got some speeches, but the fact is, he hasn't moved any significant legislation to the United States Senate. He hasn't been there long enough, you could argue rather credibly. But the truth is, his record, as you put it, is a little sketchy, I think would be the word.
CASEY: Well, Lou, I think here is the reality in the Senate. I'm in the Senate a little more than a year now, not quite a year and a half. And I've seen people around here who have been here for years and may not have their name on legislation but they are still getting a lot done. I'll give you one good example of what he led in a very significant way. And that's Senate Bill one from 2007, the ethics bill, which by all measures, common cause and a lot of other groups said was the most significant piece of lobbying reform done and in terms of how the senate's business is conducted. He led the effort. He was the first senator to sit down with our nine freshmen democrats to push ethics and lobbing reform. I think he's had some impact already in the Senate.
DOBBS: Terrific. Well, let me ask you this. The Senator said that he thought this was a distraction, the discussion over his comments here about anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment. He said he felt this was a distraction from the issues and you just said that the voters of Pennsylvania are going to want to know more about free trade. They're going to want to know more about illegal immigration and those issues. Why would he couch in any way the suggestion that people's views in Pennsylvania were based on some sort of anti- immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment out of frustration or a dislike of people who "don't look like them?" Pennsylvania, the last I looked, is a very diverse state, racially, ethnically, religiously.
CASEY: That's right.
DOBBS: So, what state is he talking about when he describes the people of Pennsylvania that way?
CASEY: Well, Lou, I think when you read everything he said on this topic, I think it's very clear what he was talking about. And I think he's talked about it probably more than any candidate has ever had to talk about a few sentences ever. I do think, though, that after five days of this, a lot of people in Pennsylvania who are living in small communities, who are living in rural and urban areas are beginning to ask why aren't these candidates allowed to talk more about the issues that you just raised and I think there are some basic differences here that should be aired out in the remaining days of the campaign.
But I'll tell you this, Lou. I know our state pretty well. I've run in seven state elections. No one can say that. And I also know Barack Obama's heart, his values and I think the way that this has been interpreted does not reflect his views, his values or his attitudes.
DOBBS: Well, let's get to those issues and just abuse me of them. OK, at least me. One, where does the senator stand on the D.C. handgun ban which the Supreme Court is reviewing? Does he support that ban or would he like to see it overturned?
CASEY: He would probably -- he would probably be a supporter as he has been in the Senate of the United States and in the Illinois legislature for various restrictions on gun ownership. I happen to disagree with him on that.
DOBBS: Right.
CASEY: But we have our disagreements.
DOBBS: And NAFTA specifically, what would he do to change the NAFTA agreement?
CASEY: Well, I think he would try as best he could, as any president has the opportunity to do, to not just strengthen provisions that level of playing field on labor standards or environmental standards, but also make sure that succeeding and future trade agreements don't make the same mistakes this country made when they put NAFTA on the books. I was against it as a state official even though I couldn't vote on it. And I think Senator Obama has a long record of opposing deals like NAFTA, which put our workers at an unfair disadvantage.
DOBBS: And does the senator believe that we should have balanced mutual reciprocal trade which would work toward absolutely balanced accounts both in terms of the U.S. trade deficit and the current account deficit, or would he be willing to accept the levels of deficit that we have experienced for the past 30 years?
CASEY: Well, I think he would be as president a strong proponent of making sure that we're taking every step possible to lower that deficit. And I think that what's been missing and I think what he would lead as president isn't just a question of this deal is bad or the next deal is bad. I'm very vocal about my opposition of the Colombia agreement for example as well as others. But here is the problem, we don't have a trade policy in America and I think as president, he would lead an effort to do that.
DOBBS: And on illegal immigration, the Senator would secure our borders and ports or would he defer to the driver's licenses and continue what we're seeing as an effort that's been rejected twice in the U.S. Senate toward comprehensive immigration in the U.S. Congress? A comprehensive immigration reform legislation.
CASEY: Well, I think as president -- you know his position, how he voted on the legislation from 2007.
DOBBS: Right.
CASEY: I voted the same way. I do think, though, that a lot of us who were supporters of that immigration legislation know that you probably can't do it all at once. And I think one of the ways that we can achieve consensus about immigration is to start with stronger border security and I think that's something that he would seriously consider instead of trying to do too much in one bill to focus on border security as I think the legislation did. But I think it's an area where we can bring -
DOBBS: Do you think that legislation focus on security?
CASEY: I'm sorry.
DOBBS: Do you think that comprehensive immigration reform legislation that was just killed in the Senate focused on a large measure on security?
CASEY: Well, Lou, if you read the bill and -
DOBBS: Remind me to do that. Remind me to do that, Senator.
CASEY: Well, if you read the bill-
DOBBS: I got to go, Senator.
CASEY: A lot of the early parts of that about border security that triggered other provisions.
DOBBS: Love to have you back anytime. Come on back, Senator Casey. We thank you for being here tonight.
CASEY: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you for joining us. Please join us here tomorrow. From all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
