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Lou Dobbs This Week
Hiring Foreign Workers; Florida and Michigan Delegates; Reporting on Immigration Issues
Aired May 24, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, INTERIM HOST: Good night. The Labor Department is making it easier for corporate America to hire cheap foreign workers instead of American workers. We'll have a special report.
And: A left wing advocacy group is blasting Lou and this broadcast for our reporting on illegal immigration. Lou spoke with one of the leaders of that group. You do not want to miss Lou's interview.
All that and much more: Straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debate, and opinion. Here now: Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.
New efforts tonight to break the deadlock over the disputed Democratic primary in Florida. Florida Senate Democratic Leader Stephen Geller has filed a lawsuit to force a national party to count Florida's nearly 2 million votes. Now, this lawsuit comes as Senator Clinton intensifies her battle to count votes from both Florida and Michigan, the other disputed primary.
John Zarrella reports from Miami -- John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, of course, this is Florida. So, it's not surprising that an election may be determined in the courts. State Senator Steve Geller, a Democrat, filed a lawsuit in federal court, and he is challenging the Democratic Party, saying that the party violated its own rules by not recognizing the results of Florida's January 29th primary. He is saying that the Democratic National Committee is, in essence, disenfranchising the 1.75 million Floridians who voted.
In his statement, Geller says, quote, "This litigation addresses the view of Howard Dean and the Democratic National Committee that 1.75 million Democrats can be ignored at will. We believe we've found a winning legal strategy that, once and for all, will force the DNC to not only obey its own rules, but to listen to the voices of millions of Democrats in one of the most influential states in the nation."
Now, Geller does believe that his lawsuit will have merit, because, he says, the DNC did not follow its own rules when it decided that it was going to ignore Florida's results from the January 29th primary. Now, Geller's lawsuit, he hopes, will preempt the rules and bylaws committee, which is going to meet, the DNC rule and bylaws committee on the 31st of May. He wants this lawsuit resolved in court and settled before May 31st.
There's also another lawsuit filed by a voter, and that is also making its way through the federal courts in Tampa, basically saying as well that voters have been disenfranchised. Now, of course, Florida is hugely important, not only to the primary process -- for Hillary Clinton who won this state 60 percent to 40 percent, she's been fighting to have all the votes counted -- and certainly important in a general election sense. A swing state that people always say could determine the outcome of the presidency.
John McCain will likely be very strong here, and Obama and/or Clinton as well, very strong, likely to be closely contested. And the one thing the Democratic Party does not want to do is keep the Democrats -- those 1.75 million who voted -- feeling as if they were disenfranchised by not counting their votes.
So, expect some resolution, if these lawsuits lose, there will still likely be a resolution by the rules and bylaws committee that would allow the votes to be counted and allow at least a portion, perhaps 50 percent, of Florida's 200 delegates to be seated at the convention and then, hopefully, giving everyone in Florida that good, happy feeling that their votes were counted -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks, John. John Zarrella reporting from Miami.
Well, as John just reported, Florida is a critically important swing state that could help determine the outcome of the November election. Clinton and Obama both say they more electable in the general election. Well, Bill Schneider joins us with more on the battle for Florida and the other swing states.
So, Bill, who looks like the stronger Democrat in these states, Clinton or Obama?
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Clinton, according to a just released Quinnipiac Poll of three swing states -- Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania.
Now, the poll asked voters in those states to choose between Clinton and McCain and between Obama and McCain, if the general election were being held right now. Ohio, Clinton leads McCain by seven but McCain leads Obama by four. Florida -- same thing; Clinton leads McCain by seven; McCain leads Obama by four. Pennsylvania -- both Democrats lead McCain, but Clinton does better; Clinton leads by 13, Obama by 6.
All three states are states that Clinton carried in the Democratic primaries, and in all three states, she gets more support from Democrats. That's why he is making a point of reaching out to Clinton supporters. It's crucial for him to get them onboard in these swing states, because it could make the difference between winning and losing.
PILGRIM: That's interesting stuff, Bill. Is there a constituency where Obama is noticeably weaker than Clinton?
SCHNEIDER: Well, the biggest difference, Kitty, is not with women. It's with blue-collar white voters. Now, look at Ohio. Pitted against McCain, Clinton gets 45 percent of the vote while Obama gets 33 percent among non-college educated white voters. Among college educated whites, Clinton and Obama do about the same.
Florida -- Obama does 12 points worse than Clinton among working-class whites. Among college educated whites, they do about the same. Pennsylvania -- same story; Obama does 10 points worse than Clinton among working-class whites and they do about the same among college educated whites. The economic issue is going to be crucial to Obama's efforts to hold those working-class voters.
PILGRIM: Now, is there a state where Obama looks stronger than Clinton?
SCHNEIDER: Actually, yes, California. A new poll just released by the Public Policy Institute of California shows Clinton leading McCain by 12 points in California, and Obama leading McCain by 17. California is important, but you know, it's not usually regarded as a swing state -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All that is fascinating stuff. Thanks very much, Bill Schneider.
Well, Senator John McCain has reversed course. He's rejected the endorsement of controversial minister, John Hagee. McCain issued a statement after the release of an audiotape of Hagee, and Hagee apparently said, "The acts of Adolf Hitler were part of God's will."
Brian Todd, who broke the story for CNN, reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John McCain now rejects an endorsement that once seen as critical to his conservative credentials.
JOHN HAGEE, PASTOR: John McCain will about strong, courageous and effective leader from the first day he steps into the Oval Office.
TODD: Pastor John Hagee, a popular televangelist from San Antonio with a 19,000 member church and a TV ministry seen around the world.
McCain's campaign tells when Hagee endorsed McCain in February, McCain was not aware of remarks Hagee had made in a sermon years earlier. Hagee cited biblical passages, spoke of what he believed was God's plan to bring the Jews back to Israel.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HAGEE: God says in Jeremiah 16, behold I will bring them the Jewish people again into their land that I gave unto their fathers. Behold, I will send for many fishers, and after will I send for many hunters. And they, the hunters, shall hunt them. That would be the Jews.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TODD: Hagee then says those Jews that didn't follow Zionism founder back to Israel went through the holocaust.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HAGEE: Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TODD: These passages were recently posted by a blogger, Bruce Wilson, an admitted critic of Hagee and the religious right. Wilson told us he voted for Hillary Clinton, but was not steered toward this by any Democratic operatives.
Pastor Hagee would not do an interview with us but issued a statement saying, he had been intentionally mischaracterized and, "To assert that, I, in any way, condone the holocaust or that monster Adolf Hitler is the biggest and ugliest of lies."
A representative for Pastor Hagee says he was trying to explain to his parish how God could let something so terrible happen. Hagee's been a strong supporter of Israel for years. A leader of one prominent Jewish group does not believe the pastor is anti-Semitic but says -
RABBI DAVID SAPERSTEIN, RELIGIOUS ACTION CTR. REFORM JUDAISM: The notion the holocaust was part of God's plan as a way of punishing the Jews, is a deeply, deeply troubling assertion that should be repudiated by all people with conscience.
TODD: John McCain not only repudiates Hagee's remarks but rejects his endorsement outright.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R-AZ) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDAT: I just think that the statement is crazy and unacceptable.
TODD: McCain says Hagee's never been his pastor and the campaign says the candidate never had the kind of relationship with Hagee that Barack Obama had with Reverend Jeremiah Wright.
Hagee reacted by saying he's tired of baseless attacks, that they've become a distraction and, quote, "I have, therefore, decided to withdraw my endorsement of Senator McCain for president." But Hagee wasn't the only pastor causing headaches for McCain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM WORLD HARVEST CHURCH)
PASTOR ROD PARSLEY, TELEVANGELIST: Islam is an anti-Christ religion that intends through violence to conquer the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Pastor Rod Parsley, another popular televangelist who also endorsed McCain in February.
IBRAHIM HOOPER, COUN. ON AMER.-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: It was shocking to hear that Senator McCain would associate himself with someone who holds such bigoted views against Muslims in Islam. TODD: The Council on American-Islamic Relations is calling on McCain to also repudiate Parsley's endorsement. A McCain spokesman says the senator rejects the remarks, says it's entirely inconsistent with what McCain believes but they're not rejecting the endorsement at the moment. McCain's aides said this was purely a political endorsement and they don't know each other well.
(on camera): Parsley's spokesman tells us he was only criticizing militant Islam and believes Christians should supportive of moderate peaceful Muslims. But Senator McCain has now rejected Parsley's endorsement as well.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still to come, much more on the presidential campaign. Three of the very best political analysts will join us. Also, the Labor Department is helping corporate America hire cheap foreign labor instead of American workers. And, the rising threat to Americans and this country from the escalating war with drug cartels in Mexico. Also, Lou will have a full and frank discussion with one of the leaders of a left wing advocacy group attacking Lou and this broadcast.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Bush administration is once again putting the interests of big business ahead of the people's interest. The Labor Department is changing the rules of its H-2B temporary worker visa program. Those changes will make it even easier for companies to hire cheap foreign labor instead of American workers.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. businesses bring in 66,000 foreign workers every year to work seasonal jobs in landscaping at restaurants and hotels. The program known as the H-2B temporary worker visa program requires companies first offer the jobs to U.S. workers.
Now, the Department of Labor is overhauling the program to, quote, "remove duplicative bureaucracy." The proposed regulations will change the definition of temporary worker from 10 months to three years.
Critics say, the new regulations would undercut American workers and reduce U.S. wages.
ROSS EISENBREY, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: They'll be able to offer a substandard, even a poverty wage, have U.S. workers decline it, and then reach overseas and pay transportation costs and housing to bring people in from other countries instead of paying a decent wage to U.S. workers.
SYLVESTER: Business groups have lobbied Congress to expand the H-2B program above its current cap of 66,000 workers since comprehensive immigration reform failed to pass on Capitol Hill.
Dan Musser, the president of the Grand Hotel, a famous resort hotel in Michigan told the congressional committee his hotel hires 300 temporary workers every summer and he welcomes any changes making it easier to bring in foreign workers.
DAN MUSSER, GRAND HOTEL: It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for us to continue and operate successfully without these H-2B workers. They're the lifeblood of our seasonal business.
SYLVESTER: The new rule changes do not require congressional approval. The Department of Labor responding to critics who say the proposal will hurt U.S. workers said, quote, "Nothing in our proposal changes the contours of the H-2B program that was created by Congress. There is nothing here that lessens the requirement that you have to first recruit U.S. workers and take affirmative steps before you hire a foreign worker."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Another major change is that employers would no longer have to send in proof that they advertised the position to U.S. workers, they would only have to sign a paper attesting that they fulfilled this requirement. The Department of Labor says it will audit those and violators could face up to a $10,000 fine and could be barred from the program up to three years -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Well, turning now to the drug war raging along our southern border. An American was shot and killed this week, and attacks against Border Patrol agents are up sharply this year. In response to those attacks, the Border Patrol is fortifying the fence but environmentalists and open border advocates are fighting those efforts.
Casey Wian has our report from Otay Mesa, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The bodies of four people including one American were found in a remote area near Rosarito, Mexico, a popular tourist destination less than an hour's drive from San Diego. Three men and a woman were all shot execution-style. The most recent apparent victims of Mexico's warring drug cartel.
GEORGE GRAYSON, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM & MARY: The cartels are working on both sides of the border. And there certainly are Americans involved in helping the Mexicans. When you have an execution-style killing, that indicates foul play of the kind in which the cartels engage in, and because the military is well-situated now in Tijuana, activities have moved down the coast. WIAN: Increasingly, Mexico's drug wars are being felt in the United States. Three Mexican police chiefs are seeking political asylum here after fleeing their posts. Attacks against U.S. Border Patrol agents have jumped nearly three-fold so far this year in San Diego. It's one reason the Border Patrol is now installing razor sharp concertino wire on top of border fencing along this violent stretch east of the city.
Next month, the Department of Homeland Security will begin work on another layer of fence and improved Border Patrol access roads west of San Diego, at the notorious illegal border crossing point known as "smugglers gulch."
JULIUS ALATORRE, BORDER PATROL AGENT: It's going to facilitate the rapid mobility of our agents from point "A" to point "B," so we can respond to criminal activity or safety issues that are going on along the border.
WIAN: Environmentalists continue to try to block this smugglers gulch project, saying it threatens the nearby wetlands.
MIKE MCCOY, SOUTHWEST WETLANDS ASSN: (INAUDIBLE) is one of the most important wetlands ecosystems left.
WIAN: But their court challenges have failed. Advocates expanded illegal alien rights are criticizing the razor wire installation, saying it shows a disregard for human life.
Casey Wian, CNN, Otay Mesa, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Up next, families demand action from Congress to stop tainted toys from communist China from entering this country. We'll a special report.
Also, an American technology company putting profit ahead of people -- disturbing new information about Cisco Systems in communist China.
We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: New charges that Cisco, one of country's largest technology firms, is putting profits ahead of basic consideration of human rights. U.S. lawmakers want to know whether Cisco is cooperating with communist Chinese efforts to crackdown on its citizens. Cisco CEO John Chambers, once famously remarked, "What we were trying to do is outline an entire strategy of becoming a Chinese company." It may be that Chambers is on his way doing.
Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The question before the Senate Subcommittee on Human Rights is simple and it shows capitalism grappling with its soul.
SEN. TOM COBURN, (R) OKLAHOMA: Do we believe in freedom enough that we're willing to give up some economic benefit on our part so that people somewhere else can have freedom?
TUCKER: Global Internet Freedom Consortium, a human rights group oppose to Internet censorship, unveiled a leak Cisco PowerPoint presentation from 2002. It was put together by a senior Cisco executive in China. It shows a marketing strategy designed to exploit communist China's Golden Shield Project, designed to manage access Internet access and spy on Internet users.
Other documents show Cisco products integrated into surveillance systems. Cisco's chief counsel defended his company's decision to do business with China and denied his company aids in the surveillance of Internet users.
MARK CHANDLER, CISCO: Cisco does not customize or develop specialized or unique filtering capabilities in order to enable different regimes to block access to information.
TUCKER: Global Internet Freedom Consortium says, it believes Cisco is, quote, "lying."
SHIYU ZHOU, GLOBAL INTERNET FREEDOM CONSORTIUM: If want to sell something to your clients, you need to meet the objectives for your clients. So, in other words, you offer solution to your clients instead of just equipment.
TUCKER: Cisco's denials don't go nearly far enough for other human rights groups.
SOPHIE RICHARDSON, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I think the human rights world would feel a lot better about those comments if we knew that Cisco was putting an equal amount of energy into, for example, innovating technology that would get around the firewalls, that would protect users' identities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Chinese human rights groups say American companies are simply too focused on short-term profit gains, apparently not recognizing that they have the power to stand for it on principle, and in doing so, they are ignoring a much larger potential market for a more free China -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: This is such a deeply disturbing incident. It's not the first time an American company's been accused of this. What is the industry's response to this?
TUCKER: Well, it's interesting, because at the hearing which on Tuesday, there were these promises at the end of the hearing, we would be hearing of a code of conduct this week. And we didn't, obviously. And it's an effort by the industry to craft some sort of independent monitoring commission that would oversee these kinds of conflicts and monitor the situation and help make it better. PILGRIM: One would hope that they would get on that quickly. Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.
We have reported extensively on the flood of tainted toys from China into this country, and families of children who suffer lead poisoning from those toys were on Capitol Hill this week. Those families are calling for government action to protect this nation's children from dangerous imports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Beth and Kevin Fischer had their three-year-old son, Ryan, tested for lead after they realized Ryan owned many of the Mattel toys made in China that were recalled last year for lead content.
BETH FISCHER, SON POISONED BY LEAD IN TOYS: His blood level was at 27. Anything above 10 is cause for concern and it has to be treated.
Three weeks later, it was 21, which I thought was a good sign, but actually it was not. What it meant - it was more had settled in his bones and in his tissues.
PILGRIM: The Fischers are in Washington to lobby lawmakers for tougher penalties on companies that sell toxic toys.
Tough new measures have passed in the House and Senate. The Senate version would make mandatory many toy safety standards that are now voluntary. But there is concern some provisions will be cut in the final version.
Some lawmakers who met with families are adamant about making imported toys from China safe.
REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY, (D) ILLINOIS: We're certainly going to raise the amount of funding for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, but we're also going to require that the toy companies get independent testing of these toys. They're going to have to test those products regardless of where they are made before they come to the United States.
PILGRIM: Consumer watchdog groups want the bill to continue to include mandatory testing of toys, and has power and funding for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and high penalties - up to $20 million against companies that violate standards.
JOANNE DOROSHOW, CTR. FOR JUSTICE & DEMOCRACY: It's also the responsibility of the Consumer Product Safety Commission and the U.S. government to make sure that these toys, as they come in, are not put on the shelf if they violate these standards.
PILGRIM: The Fischers aren't taking any chances. Now, they don't buy toys from China.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The House and Senate bills now in conference have to be voted on by July 4th, for the new standards to be in place by this coming Christmas.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Karen in Michigan wrote to us, "Dear Lou, in no country in the world can you cross its borders without a passport and not expect to be arrested for breaking their laws. This country should not be rewarding those who break our laws."
We heard from Walter in Washington. "Lou, I think you're one of the smartest people on TV, and I stand with you on your issues on government and immigration. Thank you for your bravery."
We love to hear from you. E-mail us at LouDobbs.com.
Coming up, is Senator Clinton preparing an exit strategy from the presidential race? Well, three top political analysts will be here to discuss it.
Also, a victory in the fight against the idea of giving amnesty to illegal aliens. Senator Jeff Sessions, a leader of the fight against amnesty, spoke with Lou.
And, a left wing advocacy group takes issue with Lou and this broadcast on the issue of illegal immigration. One of the leaders of that group joined Lou for a very a spirited discussion.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me now are three of best political analysts and CNN contributors. "New York Daily News" columnist, Errol Louis; Democratic strategist, Hank Scheinkopf; and, Diana West, columnist for the "Washington Times."
Thanks for being here.
You know, we have a big moment for the Democrats coming up on May 31st. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee is meeting to see whether they will seat Michigan and Florida.
Hank, how do you think that this will work out? Can they afford not to seat these delegates?
HANK SCHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: They can't afford not to seat them. They also can't afford to upset the Obama community, OK? Because if they do, blacks vote from the party in anyway are feeling that they have been jobbed because this guy's played entirely by the rules. It will not be good.
And the third thing they need to do is keep their eyes focused on the prize. Democrats need to remember there's only one thing that matters for them, and that's winning the White House in the fall.
PILGRIM: Diana? DIANA WEST, "THE WASHINTON TIMES": Well, yes. I mean they need to do something that will seat the people and I think Hank's exactly right. But I don't know how they're going to do it without alienating either one side or the other.
PILGRIM: Well, you know, there is, has been some movement on this, this week. Senate Democratic Leader Steven Geller filed a lawsuit in federal court to force the national party to count Florida and Florida's nearly two million votes. Let's listen to what he had to say and then we'll discuss it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEVEN GELLER (D), FLORIDA SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: Well, all I'm saying is, count our votes. I happen to agree with Senator Clinton to count their votes but I'm not supporting Senator Clinton or Senator Obama. I want our votes counted but I'll tell you, if they don't count our votes, they won't get our votes in November. That's an accurate statement and it will hurt not only the president but our congressional and our other legislative races.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: So by initiating a suit perhaps it takes it away from a personal decision or a difficult political decision?
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Not really. I mean, the lawsuit is dead on arrival. Let's be clear about that. The courts are not going to overturn - the parties are free to choose any way they want to run their own affairs. And of course, it is absolutely crystal clear, there's no basis for that lawsuit. It will be thrown out of court. The meeting next week, which is going to be interesting, is normally a very slow, tepid meeting. It's open to the public and it's open to the press and nobody goes. This year, of course, will be different. There will be hundreds of people there. There will be cameras. There will be a lot of pressure and a lot focus on it but in the end, it really is the same sort of question that the state senator is trying to step around which is that the party can make its own rules. The party can enforce its own rules. You can't have an outside pressure that's not going to change that. The courts aren't going to change that. I think if you just count up the votes look like there's a slight advantage to Obama but in the end they're going do what politician do. They're going to reach some kind of a compromise.
PILGRIM: Let's put up some numbers for the benefit of our viewers. The democratic popular vote including Michigan and Florida, Senator Clinton has the edge by 72,000. However, in primaries and caucuses without Michigan and Florida, Obama has the popular lead. So, it really is up to the superdelegates in the end. How do you think this will work? This looks like such a difficult decision?
SHEINKOPF: It is not an easy decision. It is a difficult, but Barack Obama has handled it well. He has pretended to be the almost incumbent. Hillary Clinton has handled it well. She's pretending to be the almost incumbent as well. The problem here is that the almost incumbent looks a lot more like Barack Obama and he's won that starring role in this drama. And people are going to go accordingly. Why? Because again, there's only one thing that matters to democrats, winning in the fall.
PILGRIM: On that note, Senator Obama is reportedly beginning a search for his vice presidential nominee. And there's some push for an Obama-Clinton ticket. Let me ask Diana, do you think that has any chance?
WEST: I don't know. I can't imagine the two of them getting together at this point.
LOUIS: I -- look, there's a scenario where Obama can't keep her from doing it, if she really wants it. I mean, there's a lot of power behind her including a former president. There's a lot of sentiment, a lot of delegates, and the reality is, they could sort of force a floor fight over a vice presidential slot that has a very different tone to it than arguing the main nomination and it's not clear whether or not they would be able to stop her, if that's what she really, really wants.
PILGRIM: No indication from her she would do that?
SHEINKOPF: Gut response is he should be so lucky. Gut response is he won't do it.
PILGRIM: We'll take a break on that note and we'll have much more with our panel and also one of the authors of a report attacking Lou and this broadcast because of our coverage of the illegal immigration crisis. Paul Waldman of "Media Matters" talks with Lou. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Well, I'm back with Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf and Diana West. Let's get right into the McCain controversy this week. And it's been difficult. McCain has rejected the endorsement of two televangelists for their comments which he considered "crazy and unacceptable." That's the quote from McCain. Very tough, because it associates the McCain campaign with some very difficult remarks, and yet Mr. McCain says he endorsed me, I did not endorse him and distanced himself. So, Hank, what do you think about this? Is this analogies to the Obama-Reverend Wright controversy or not?
SHEINKOPF: Whether it is or not, the attempt we make to make it so it will take the pressure off Barack Obama in a significant fashion. It was a good week for him that this happened. A bad week for McCain, frankly.
PILGRIM: That's interesting. Diana.
WEST: Well, I think that it's certainly something that will be discussed as we're doing right now, but I think there are huge distinctions here. Namely that the things that are so offensive to so many Americans about Jeremiah Wright's statements are political, anti-Americanism. Anti-Israel. Racism. Whereas you have with the McCain endorsements, people, of course, who were not his pastor for 20 years or more.
PILGRIM: There's a very clear difference. Errol.
LOUIS: Well, I don't know. The fact that he stood next to somebody who he now says is "crazy and unacceptable." Well, did somebody check? Because, you know, this not the first time that these statements have been made. So, that's a legitimate kind of a question. I think what we're going to see going forward in the next presidential cycle, I hope, is that people who don't really dwell in this world of faith and religion and politics. We're going to really try to push it aside. I mean, when you have a president like a Jimmy Carter or a George W. Bush, or even Ronald Reagan in his own way, they lived their faith and they could talk about it in a way that people understand it and it makes sense. When people - this is almost like Obama trying to go bowling. You know, it's like, it's somebody out of their element, I think, is what you found with McCain.
PILGRIM: You know, faith and politics and religion, it's been very, very key in this campaign, and really on the global stage, too. Let's -- I'd like to turn to another incident in Florida. At a Florida fund-raiser this week, Senator Obama attacked the host of our program, Lou Dobbs, and he says, "a certain segment basically has been feeding a kind of xenophobia. There's a reason why hate crimes against Hispanic people doubled last year. If you have people like Lou Dobbs and Rush Limbaugh ginning things up, it's not surprising that would happen."
A full-out attack on Lou. And by the way, we did check. FBI data says that hate crimes against Hispanics went up by 10%, Mr. Obama says they doubled. Senator Obama said they doubled. Hank, any thoughts on this? I mean, you are a regular on this broadcast and you are well familiar with our position on this.
SHEINKOPF: Politically speaking, why not? He's got it take what he thinks needs and combine it. He's got to protect his coalition such as this and make sure that it's impenetrable and part of that are Hispanics and partly a lot of people are progressive or call themselves progressive and were certainly taken a lot of shots at Lou Dobbs. So, much less Lou Dobbs is much less Lou Dobbs constituency and creating a greater whole for himself. That's the political strategy.
PILGRIM: Diana, any thoughts?
WEST: I think it's an outrage to anyone who is a proponent of the nation's laws of trying to get control of the immigration problem and I think that it is the most dirty kind of pool for Senator Obama to try to make that position something beyond the pale and nothing more than racial demagoguery. He is practicing the same thing and it's actually I think beneath him.
LOUIS: And it reflects, I think, not only badly on the candidate, who seems to sort of start freestyling when he doesn't have speech writers with him at these fundraisers. He starts going off. This is where he made a bitter comment in front of a group of his money people. I think, though, that he and the democrats have got to figure out what they want to say about immigration. You know, and stop resorting to these generalizations and these smears and really just dig into some facts, and if they want to be pro-amnesty, they should just come out and say it. If they want to sort of take some other kind of a path, they should with that. But you know, when he starts dividing, when he's supposed to be the candidate of unity, bad business for him all the way around.
SHEINKOPF: Not seen on the ballot but Barack Obama is and the people to watch Dobbs are going to be a little upset about this.
PILGRIM: Oh, yes. It wasn't taken very well with the staff of this show on this broadcast, and we believe very inaccurate. Thank you very much for being with us. Hank Sheinkopf, Diana West and Errol Louis.
Still ahead, a left wing advocacy group attacks Lou and this broadcast over illegal immigration. Paul Waldman one of the leaders of that group talks with Lou.
Also, a leading opponent of amnesty for illegal aliens, Senator Jeff Sessions talks about the latest defeat for the pro-amnesty crowd.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The senate leadership Tuesday night removed an Ag Jobs amendment that had been attached to the Iraq war funding bill. Now, this amendment would have provided amnesty for as many as three million illegal alien farm workers and their families. Senator Jeff Sessions was the leader in the fight to have the amnesty amendment removed and he joined Lou to discuss the victory over the pro-amnesty lobbying.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: When we found out that it had been added on, there was no notice of that. They had no hearings on the implications of this legislation, and I'm confident no member of the appropriations committee read that 110-page bill language. It had some very terrible things in it, and it was not as stated fundamentally. Senator Feinstein is a wonderful person. I really admire her and like her, but we disagree fundamentally on this. This cannot be sneaked through and without the debate and consideration of the American people, and no form of legalization of millions of people or any other kind of legislation for that matter needs to be passed until we have had the opportunity to put some language in that tightens up the illegality in the current system. You said a little earlier the question is, do we want a legal system or not? How can you amend a system that's lawless already, if people don't obey the law at all?
LOU DOBBS, CNN, HOST: You know, the reality is whether we're talking about the background checks that would have been required, the rather perfunctory sort of lists that went out there, but there is no discussion of the fact that citizenship and immigration services, the agency that would be required to do all that, is simply overwhelmed right now. It cannot function in support of and processing of legal immigrants into this country. It's an absolute shame, a disgrace. And for Senator Feinstein and Senator Craig to sponsor such legislation with as far as I know, Senator, maybe you can correct me here, but I'm absolutely unaware of any research done by either the Congressional Budget Office or the Congressional Research Services on the issue of illegal aliens working in agriculture, where they're needed most and at what price they would be reasonably paid? I know of none of that having been done.
SESSIONS: I couldn't agree more. Fundamentally, this is a huge issue that impacts America in a whole lot of ways. We need a serious objective analysis of what's needed. They've just been listening to some very aggressive groups, special advocacy group, and some very aggressive western growers who really, whose interests aren't the same necessarily as the American interests.
DOBBS: No. They're sure not. You know, at a time when this country is in an economic slowdown, if people are going to talk honestly here. Let me tell you, somebody who's worked with illegal aliens working in fields, you know, many years ago, I can still remember the heat and the sweat and the hard work, and if anybody wants to do something for those people immediately, I would hope they would attach to their legislation reasonable pay. Doubling those wages the last research I saw would add about 10 cents to a head of lettuce. We need to pay people in the fields a lot of money. Because in that heat, that is back-breaking work, and they deserve living wages.
I don't care whether it's $20 or $25 an hour, they deserve it, and that's what we should be paying. And that might get the western growers' attention, because nothing that is done in terms of, in my opinion, Senator, in terms of guest worker program for agriculture should be passed without mandating an extraordinarily significant increase in pay for those people doing that absolutely essential work. How do you feel?
SESSIONS: Well I think that's right. In other words, we are not allowing the free market to work. If the free market were working, wages would go up, Lou, because - but it's undercut because huge flows of illegal labor keeps flooding in, and, therefore, alleviating the need of these businesses to pay higher wages. I don't think that's healthy, frankly. I agree with you.
DOBBS: Senator Jeff Sessions, again, congratulations on your successful efforts to forestall that horrible decision, and, again, our thanks.
SESSIONS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still ahead, a left wing advocacy group attacking Lou over illegal immigration. We'll talk to the author of a new report that says this broadcast "serves up a diet of fear about illegal immigration." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PILGRIM: The left wing advocacy group Media Matters, which sometimes describes itself as a watchdog group, has teamed up with the Congressional Hispanic caucus. They are attacking Lou and this broadcast for our coverage of illegal immigration, and this group issued a scathing report stating this broadcast and other programs on cable television spread what it calls the "myths of illegal immigration." Lou sat down for a frank and open debate with Paul Waldman, senior fellow and director of special projects for Media Matters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Let's go to just a couple of things. Your report says 70 percent of the "Lou Dobbs Tonight" program last year mentioned illegal immigration. Now, last year as you may recall comprehensive immigration reform was a major issue with the vote ultimately on June 28 that resulted in its demise in the Senate. You may recall that last year was a campaign year in which a number of candidates were taking up the issue of illegal immigration and specifically Governor Eliot Spitzer calling for driver's licenses for illegal aliens. Why would you be surprised that we would be taking up that issue in such an active period if you will in public policy?
PAUL WALDMAN, MEDIA MATTERS FOR AMERICA: We're not and we don't criticize you for talking about illegal immigration a lot. Obviously, that's an issue that you care very deeply about. The question though is when you talk about it -
DOBBS: You said obsessed with it.
WALDMAN: When you talk about it - the question is when you talk about it, how do you talk about it? Are you propagating myths, are you encouraging people to believe things that don't happen to be true? That's the real question. Because, Lou, let's think about it this way. There is probably no more important voice on this issue than you. You talk about this issue almost every night. You have a national television - national television audience. You got a nationally radio program. There is no one whose voice is louder when it comes to the issue of immigration than yours.
DOBBS: If that's the case, Paul, why in the world would you not look at the record and realize how much reporting we've done on this and instead of you criticize the broadcast for having its own, "own correspondents." So does "60 Minutes." You did.
WALDMAN: We mentioned it. We don't criticize you for having your correspondents, Lou. The question though is when you talk about this, are you feeding into some of these myths?
DOBBS: I want you to listen to this, OK? And I want you to listen to this. Would you do that?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: You can not reform immigration. If you can't control it, you cannot control immigration, unless you control the borders. Absolutely.
I'm also for raising legal immigration. No country, no -- three countries -- can come close to us on our immigration. Legal immigration laws and we should be very proud of that. I am. I am just as excited about legal immigration. I'm more excited. Why didn't you report that in any part of your report?
WALDMAN: Lou -
DOBBS: My position on illegal immigration? My position on immigration. My position on border security. Yours is scurrilous attack and you pretend that it has some scholarly basis. It is an absolute pitiful joke. Why did you not include my position on immigration and border security in your report because not to do to so -
WALDMAN: We mentioned it -
DOBBS: Because not to do so is obfuscatory. It's distortion and irresponsible on your part and for to you pretend that that is a responsible piece of research is is a joke.
WALDMAN: Lou, the question, if you want to take this debate to a level where it's responsible, you could do all kinds of stories --
DOBBS: Wait a minute, how many story - how much research have you done on illegal immigration? How much research have you done on illegal immigration?
WALDMAN: The question --
DOBBS: No, no. You're sitting here with a temerity to make such a statement. I'm asking you point blank how much research have you done on illegal immigration? How much on border security and its economic --
WALDMAN: We did enough research to understand --
DOBBS: No. You're not answering the question -
WALDMAN: We are a media research - a media watchdog group.
DOBBS: So, that's the only time until you went after me and Noah Riley and Glenn Beck, you hadn't done anything. Had you? We've been reporting on this subject here for seven years.
WALDMAN: I understand. Of course, you have, Lou.
DOBBS: So, you have no standing whatsoever to make such outrageous arrogant comments.
WALDMAN: The question is , Lou, if you wanted to make sure this debate stays at a level that is responsible, you could do stories that are positive about legal immigrants that showed people that you are not anti-immigrant and that shouldn't be part of the - DOBBS: OK. Let's do this. Shall we do this? Do you recall that 60 illegal aliens were rescued from drop houses in Los Angeles and Phoenix last week?
WALDMAN: Uh-huh.
DOBBS: Where else did you see that report besides here?
WALDMAN: I'm not sure, Lou. But the point is --
DOBBS: That's a positive story.
WALDMAN: That's terrific. And I'd like to see more of that --
DOBBS: And the group that you are associated -
WALDMAN: And the fact is Lou, as I'm sure you know.
DOBBS: You would like for me to do --
WALDMAN: People in less responsible quarters take what you do and it gives them, makes them happy.
DOBBS: Oh, please, don't give me that --
WALDMAN: No, no. Lou, you're not responsible for what people say about you.
DOBBS: Why are you saying it?
WALDMAN: If I had --
DOBBS: Because you can't demonstrate a single thing that's happened on this broadcast, that would be absolutely - I mean, other than -
WALDMAN: If I had my own television show and knew there were extremist groups like the John Burks Society and white supremacist groups like the Council Concern for Citizens that were cheering me on on their website it would make me want to step back and say, OK, what am I doing? How can I change to make sure this debate is responsible because there's going to be --
DOBBS: Do you like balance? Do you like balance?
WALDMAN: There's going to be -- Balance is fine, Lou, but the question is whether or not the rhetoric is responsible. If it's feeding into things --
DOBBS: What is the rhetoric - what have I ever said about an illegal alien that is -- have I said that illegal aliens I think are the most rational actors in this entire mess? Have I said that I have worked with and respect greatly illegal aliens? Have I not said that I have great respect for the work ethic, the family values of most illegal aliens working in this country, have I not said that their wages should be increased. Have I not said that we should come to terms with the reality and raise wages of illegal aliens working in fields because you are an ideologue and a left wing hat that will ignore the reality.
WALDMAN: You wouldn't - calling me names as a way to avoid talking about this.
DOBBS: No, I'm talking to you partner and I'm telling you exactly, respond to what I just said?
WALDMAN: Absolutely. So I'm --
DOBBS: Named one of them that you mentioned in your list -
WALDMAN: Lou, it is -
DOBBS: If talking over me is the way to avoid the question. I'm asking you why didn't you include a single element that is positive in your report?
WALDMAN: We mentioned in our report that you are clear that you --
DOBBS: You didn't mention a single one of those things.
WALDMAN: Well, you ought to read it more closely, Lou. Now the question, if you are going to mention occasionally those kinds of things but yet in one year you do 94 different stories on a crime that was committed by an illegal immigrant.
DOBBS: 94?
WALDMAN: 94?
DOBBS: What was the crime?
WALDMAN: A whole variety.
DOBBS: Did that include Ramos and Compean?
WALDMAN: No. It didn't We excluded any mention of Ramos and Compean from our study. Because we know that that would have increased the numbers. That would increase the numbers?
DOBBS: What one?
WALDMAN: Well, there were all kinds of different stories that you did about undocumented immigrants and crime --
DOBBS: In 2007?
WALDMAN: In 2007, well you pound on it over and over 94 times in a year. And what it does is it feeds into this misperception that somehow undocumented immigrants are responsible for an inordinate --
DOBBS: OK, let me ask you this. Paul, let me ask you this. Do you read the "New York Times."
WALDMAN: Sure.
DOBBS: Do you read the "Washington Post?"
WALDMAN: Uh-huh.
DOBBS: Do you watch - do you read "Newsweek," "Time?"
WALDMAN: Every once in a while.
DOBBS: Good. How many of those publications have had a report on the impact of illegal immigration in communities across country on the economy and the impact of having 95 percent of the cargo entering this country being uninspected, our ports to be unsecure? How many of those publications have reported on the fact that Mexico is the primary source of not only of illegal immigration in to this country but the primary source of methamphetamines, cocaine, marijuana and heroine and our borders remain insecure almost seven years after September 11th? Does it strike you as curious that they have not reported on the issue.
WALDMAN: Lou, your point is that you report on the issue of immigration more than anybody else. And that is absolutely true and that's why it's so -
DOBBS: Illegal immigration.
WALDMAN: That's why it so important that your voice be the most responsible out there. It's going to come up again in Congress and it will come up maybe this year, maybe next year. And when it does, there are going to be millions of people who are looking to you and --
DOBBS: What you're doing as a member of Media Matters, a left wing group, and a Congressional Hispanic Caucus which is advocating open borders and amnesty for illegal immigrants, and it is the only basis in which they have and you have in this debate. You have the temerity to sit here on this broadcast talking to me about illegal immigration and you have done one report and it was on this broadcast and that's your only connection and understanding of the subject that's far more complex than you will acknowledge it. That's a shame. Good to have you with us. Paul Waldman.
WALDMAN: My pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And thank you for joining us. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
