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Lou Dobbs This Week
McCain Pushing Free Trade Agenda; Nielsen Trying to Import Cheap Labor; Supreme Court and Second Amendment
Aired June 29, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST: Tonight: Outrage after corporate elites try to replace middle-class Americans with cheap labor in one of this country's best known companies. And: Senator McCain is taking a space-based economic agenda to Mexico and Colombia in a push for so- called "free trade." We'll have it all of that and much more, straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debate and opinion. Here now: Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody.
Gun rights have become a big issue on the campaign trail after a historic ruling by the Supreme Court. The justices ruled, for the first time, that individuals have the right to own guns for self- defense. The court is overturning a sweeping ban on handguns in Washington, D.C.
Political reaction was swift. Senators McCain and Obama both declared the support for the Second Amendment, but Obama also said that there is still a place for what he called "common sense" gun laws.
Jessica Yellin reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From John McCain, a whole hearted embrace for the Supreme Court's ruling supporting gun ownership.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) PRESUMPTIVE PRES. NOMINEE: Obviously, I'm very pleased about that decision. I had filed a brief along with 50-some- other senators. Senator Obama had declined to do that.
YELLIN: Barack Obama is trying to thread the needle on guns in this interview with Bloomberg TV...
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESUMPTIVE PRES. NOMINEE: I believe that the Second Amendment means something, that it is an individual right, and that's what the Supreme Court held.
YELLIN: He says he believes in gun rights, but also in gun laws.
OBAMA: There is still room for us, I think, to have some common sense gun laws that are also compatible with the Second Amendment. YELLIN: It's a position of growing number of Democrats embrace as the party tries to expand it's base to include rural and suburban voters who tend to oppose gun restrictions. According to latest CNN Poll 67 percent of all Americans and 70 percent of independents believe the Constitution guarantees a right to own a gun. Both Al Gore and John Kerry fumbled by appearing too liberal or awkward on the issue. In 2006, Democrats regained the Senate, in part, by running a new breed of pro-gun Democrats including Senators Jim Webb, Jon Tester and Bob Casey.
One Democratic strategist says other candidates are learning from their example.
JIM KESSLER, THIRD WAY: Let's look at the reality. There are 280 million guns in private hands in America. That's enough guns for every man, woman and child over the age of five to have a gun. I think it makes sense for anybody whether it's a Democrat or Republican to speak to those folks that have a gun in the home.
YELLIN (on camera): Barack Obama will still have to overcome concerns about his now infamous gaffe about "bitter" and frustrated people who cling to their guns, but he's trying to push through that anxiety by focusing on the substance on his position supporting gun rights, but also gun laws.
Jessica Yellin, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, Senator Obama's position on gun control has changed significantly in recent months. In November of last year, the Obama campaign said, quote, "He believes the D.C. handgun law is constitutional." But that was before Obama won the long battle for his party's presidential nomination. And after the Supreme Court ruling Thursday, Obama declared, quote, "I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the rights of individuals to bear arms."
Now as Jessica Yellin reported, Obama can't afford to lose the support of independent voters who back gun rights.
Joining me now, for more on the Supreme Court ruling, one of the best legal analysts of the country, we are joined in Washington, D.C. by Jonathan Turley. He's a professor of law at George Washington University.
And thanks very much for joining us, Jonathan.
PROF. JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Your thoughts on the decision?
TURLEY: Well, you know, it's historic and it's historic in a number of ways, but the most important way is that we're unlikely in our lifetime to see a new right, perhaps the recognition of an old right, in the Bill of Rights. You know, this is a pretty important thing. And whether you consider this as a new right or something that was long unrecognized, it is a very important milestone for the Bill of Rights.
Every aspect of the Bill of Rights, every comma, every clause has been a subject to a dozen decisions, but somewhere between the First and Third Amendments, the court tended to avoid the issue until now. About 170 years this last time they dealt with it in the Miller case, and they really have tried to avoid this for so many years.
And many people feel it's a great blunder of the D.C. mayor and the attorney general of D.C. to bring the case, because the predictions were that this was inevitable a five-four decision. And it seemed to be motivated more by political than legal judgment because now, it's going to be applied across the country.
PILGRIM: Let me read what Justice Antonin Scalia said about the Second Amendment and I'd like our viewers to share this.
"Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of our nation, and where well-trained police forces provide personal security and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct."
That's a very strong support of the Second Amendment, correct?
TURLEY: It is. But, you know, there are many liberals and libertarians that agree with Justice Scalia's analysis. It is hard to read the Second Amendment and not see an individual right of ownership. And it also puts liberals on the top position. You can't have a broad and robust interpretation of the amendments on either side of the Second Amendment but not that one.
PILGRIM: Well, let me read Justice Stephen Breyer wrote. Dissenting opinion, "There is simply no untouchable constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to keep loaded handguns in the house in a crime-ridden urban area."
What do you make of that?
TURLEY: Well, you know, first of all, I have to say that I've been a critic on many occasions of the court and the quality of its work, but this is not one of those cases. All three of these opinions were magnificent. They were very well argued and I think anyone reading them on either side has to accept that there are strong arguments on both sides, good faith disagreement.
But now, the Supreme Court has answered the question -- it is an individual right of ownership, and what we're going to have to look at in the next few years is how the court balances that right with legitimate or reasonable limitations. And we're going to the find some resting point as in the next few years to what laws, like Chicago, are likely to be struck down and what laws are likely to survive.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much Jonathan Turley. Thank you, sir. TURLEY: It's my pleasure.
PILGRIM: Another top issue subject on the campaign trail is religion and politics. An influential evangelical, Dr. James Dobson, accused Senator Obama of distorting the Bible. He also said Obama has what he called a "fruitcake" interpretation of our Constitution.
Bill Schneider reports on the influence of religion on the presidential campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALSYT (voice-over): James Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family, is using his radio broadcast this week to respond to something Barack Obama said two years ago when he gave the speech about ways to bridge the divide between religious and secular Americans. Obama called on the secular Americans to show greater respect for religious values.
OBAMA: Secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square.
SCHNEIDER: He also called on evangelical leaders to define their agenda in terms of common values.
OBAMA: Democracy demands that the religiously-motivated translate their concerns into universal rather than religion-specific values.
SCHNEIDER: Dobson's response?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY)
JAMES DOBSON, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: What he's trying to say here is, unless everybody agrees, we have no right to fight for what we believe. I thank God that that's not what the Constitution says.
(END AUDIO CLI)
SCHNEIDER: Take abortion. The public is sharply divided on the issue. Obama advised abortion opponents...
OBAMA: That explained why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.
SCHNEIDER: Dobson's response -- that's nonsense.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY)
DOBSON: What the senator is saying there in essence is that I can't seek to pass legislation for example that bans partial birth abortion because there are people in the culture who don't see that as a moral issue. And if I can't get everyone to agree with me, it is unDemocratic to try to pass legislation that I find offensive to the scripture. Now, that is a fruitcake interpretation of the Constitution. SCHNEIDER: That's why we have election, Dobson argues, to fight for our values. Obamas believes elections should be more about finding common ground.
(on camera): Obama's campaign has responded with a statement that, quote, "Barack Obama is committed to reaching out to people of faith," unquote, adding that a full reading of his 2006 speech shows that.
This is a dispute over values and values are much harder to compromise than interests.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still to come, Senator McCain is taking his free trade message to foreign countries. We'll tell you all about that. Also: The biggest salmonella outbreak linked to tomatoes and the federal government hasn't a clue where it began.
And, one community is standing united against corporate elites trying to replace middle-class Americans with cheap labor from overseas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Nielsen is the company that measures television ratings. It's replacing American workers with cheap foreign labor, and Nielsen, like many companies before, it's eliminating good-paying middle-class jobs by abusing the federal government's H-1B visa program.
The biggest users of the H-1B visas are Indian outsourcing companies and now some communities are telling Washington they've had enough of seeing jobs in their communities outsourced to foreigners.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The city council of Oldsmar, Florida is not suffering quietly the sting of Nielsen's actions. The company is taking jobs away from American workers, giving those jobs to foreign workers on guest-worker visas, and requiring the fired workers to train them. Most of those jobs ultimately will be transferred out of the country.
GREG RUBLEE, OLDSMAR CITY COUNCIL: What Nielsen has chosen to do in exploiting the H-1B visa program by American standard is fundamentally wrong and it's fundamentally unpatriotic.
JANICE MILLER, OLDSMAR CITY COUNCIL: I am incensed that the American government would allow this to happen to the American people. This is all about driving down the wages in this country. To me, it's un- American.
TUCKER: Because of the uproar over the outsourcing, Nielsen says it will forego millions of dollars in tax incentives this year. It's been receiving those incentives for the past four years.
Council members admit there's nothing more they can do aside from expressing their anger, they are calling on Congress and voters to wake up -- now.
ERIC SEIDEL, OLDSMAR CITY COUNCIL: It's a huge issue that's getting worse, especially hitting us at times when the economy is not very good. And so, I think, Washington, it's not to pass the buck, because I wish we had the authority to do something here.
SUZANNE VALE, OLDSMAR CITY COUNCIL: And another thing, people needs to be calling Senator McCain and Senator Barack Obama, and finding out what their stance is on this issue, because they're running for the president; they need to find out where they stand. This is important. Our jobs are going overseas.
TUCKER: Nielsen acknowledges the losses, but responds by noting that roughly 1,300 jobs will remain in the city.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: However, critics of Nielsen and Oldsmar are leery of any promises or assurances from the company. They pointed out that Nielsen last October signed a $1.2 billion 10-year outsourcing contract with the Tata Consultancies. The deal not only includes informational technology support but operational support as well, Kitty.
PILGRIM: So, what's the reaction from the congressional representative?
TUCKER: It's really interesting. The entire city council is angry about this, the mayor says he's upset about it. We called the representatives, Senator Nelson, Senator Martinez, their congressional representative, Gus Bilirakis, none of them -- none of them returned our phone calls, and the best that we could get in way of a reaction from any of them was -- we'll look into it and get back to you. They haven't gotten back to us yet.
PILGRIM: One would hope they would look into it. Thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
Well, nearly three months have passed and federal inspectors are still looking for the origin of a major salmonella outbreak. Now, the government says it is linked to tomatoes. It is now the largest salmonella outbreak associated with tomatoes in this country. We have the very latest from Louise Schiavone -- Louise.
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, still no end to the outbreak of Salmonella Saint Paul, with the Center for Disease Control reporting, 36 states and the District of Columbia are involved in what shaping up as a record outbreak. The list of confirmed cases is up to 810 with almost 100 hospitalized.
Texas and New Mexico are the hardest hit with 342 cases in Texas and 85 cases in New Mexico. The most recent cases were registered on June 15th, indicating the outbreak is not yet over.
Food and Drug Administration investigators headed to farms in Florida and Mexico last weekend in hopes of tracing the path of what the CDC believes was contaminated tomatoes. The strategy has been for FDA inspectors and regulators in Mexico and Florida to jointly visit growers and distributors and for the FDA to collect and analyze tomato samples.
The FDA has not issued any recalls but officials strongly urge consumers to stick with tomatoes on the vine as well as cherry and grape tomatoes, none of which appear to have been implicated in this outbreak -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: This is a lot larger than originally reported, isn't it?
SCHIAVONE: That's right. It's up 200 from the number that we had just last week. So, it's obvious that, first of all, more people are going to their doctors and more doctors are going to authorities with laboratory results and so on. But the evidence is that people are still suffering some effects of something that's carrying Salmonella Saint Paul.
PILGRIM: And there's no recall yet. That's what is astonishing about this whole thing.
SCHIAVONE: That's the interesting thing, because, really, still, the FDA and the CDC, they don't have a sample of anything specifically contaminated. So, they cannot explicitly recall anything. So, they just have these very strong recommendations.
PILGRIM: It's unbelievable how long this is dragging on without any answers whatsoever.
SCHIAVONE: And what's interesting is that the people go to grocery stores and they say, "Oh, I've been looking at the tomatoes but I don't know whether or not I should buy any." I mean, this is something that grocers really have to get into mix and be able to say to their customers, "This is where these tomatoes are coming from. We know that these have been ruled safe by the FDA. These are farm- fresh."
I mean, everybody has to sort of pitch in to educate consumers, because consumers want to consume tomatoes.
PILGRIM: It is summertime.
SCHIAVONE: Yes, that's right. They're just worried.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Louise Schiavone.
Still ahead, the pro-amnesty crowd steps up it's protest against efforts to crackdown on illegal immigration.
Also, former political rivals Senator Obama and Clinton campaign together for the first time. Three of the best political analysts in the country join me for more on that and the rest of the political news. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents are intensifying their crackdown on businesses that knowingly hire illegal aliens and that crackdown is drawing new protests. Pro-amnesty advocates including unions, immigration lawyers, and the Catholic Church, are lashing out at the federal government's enforcement efforts.
Casey Wian has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents arrested 160 employees of Action Rags USA on Wednesday. The Houston company exports used clothes to Africa, South America and India. And according to law enforcement, employs illegal workers from Mexico and Central America.
ROBERT RUTT, IMMIG. AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: We received information over a year ago of allegations of the illegal hiring of aliens.
WIAN: The company is now under investigation for criminal employment violations. That threat is one reason 70,000 American employers have now enrolled in the federal E-Verify program, to determine the legal status of employees. No charges have been filed but an attorney claims Action Rags was unaware the employees were illegal.
WILLIAM ESTES, ATTORNEY, ACTION RAGS USA: I'm understanding that a system is being set up, or in the process of being set up, but we have no way to determine that. When you show us your ID, that's all we have.
WIAN: ICE says its raids only target egregious violators of immigration laws. Still, advocates of amnesty for illegal aliens are holding a series of one-sided hearings denouncing ICE, including one this week in Los Angeles.
JOE HANSEN, UNITED FOOD & COMMERCIAL WORKERS: Everyday, tens of millions of Americans go to their jobs, unaware that without any warning, they could be swept up, detained, and held at gunpoint in a massive raid conducted by armed government agents that shuts down their workplaces, that denies them access to their families.
WIAN: They are even calling those arrested -- victims.
HANSEN: The victims of the ICE raid at the Microsolutions Enterprise...
CARDINAL ROGER MAHONYM, L.A. ARCHDIOCESE: This is just really almost a sin on our national character. So, just count on my help in any way that I can and count on the Catholic Church in this country, walking with you every step of the way.
WIAN: ICE officials reject that criticism, promising even more work site enforcement raids. So far this year, the agency says, it has prosecuted twice as many people as in 2007 for felony immigration charges.
(on camera): But only 92 employers were prosecuted by ICE last year. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff says that the number will increase as well. He says ICE is following the model set by drug and organized crime prosecutors, busting people at the bottom and working their way up.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Congressman Ed Royce is leading a fight to extend Operation Jump Start, a program to deploy National Guard troops on our border with Mexico. The Bush administration says that the program will end on July 15th and the National Guard will be withdrawn.
Now, Lou asked Congressman Royce if he thought he had the support to pass that legislation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ED ROYCE, (R) CALIFORNIA: Well, Lou, let me tell you right now, we've got the support of the four governors on the border. The case for keeping these 6,000 National Guard on the border is that there is an out of control drug war going on, on that border. We had 700 attacks on our border patrol agents last year.
Now, these 6,000 National Guard troops helped in this effort. They helped our border patrol arrest 166,000 people at the border who were coming over illegally. They brought their own choppers up. They brought their own bulldozers. They've been putting up fence. They have, frankly, been absolutely imperative.
LOU DOBBS, CNN HOST: But they haven't been on the border. And this violence has been rising with their presence there, admittedly that the 6,000 and the better than 6,000 national guardsmen that were there as of two years ago have been drawn down significantly.
ROYCE: They're being drawn down, but remember this, they are not on the front line, they are right behind operating the equipment, assisting, and allowing the border patrol to be on the front line. They have got their backs. And so, that has helped provide safety, security to our border patrol.
In the mean, they're putting up fence as I said. They're building the infrastructure, you know, they're assisting in the arrests. So, to pull them off now at a time when the, when, frankly, the drug cartels are beginning to take over along the border, this is absolutely irrational and this is why pressure has to be deployed now on the administration.
DOBBS: I applaud you for it, you know I support you 100 percent on this. And I think most Americans who are concerned about this country do, but we also know that your party has a president who is a lame duck, who has been the principal problem on the border from the day he took office. ROYCE: Well, listen, we are in agreement about the lack of this administration taking decisive action, and here they finally took -- did something which was put these 6,000 border patrol troops on the border. Now, they want to take them back. We're saying, "Listen to the four governors on the border who say that this has to be done now to protect security." We have terrorists who've tried to come over that border.
DOBBS: Congressman Royce, I'm sorry, we're out of time. I'm going to have some break right up. I appreciate your being here and wish you well. Thank you.
ROYCE: Thank you, Lou.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Coming up: Senator McCain can't shake off his addiction to so-called "free trade." He's even taking that message to foreign countries.
Also: Lou's challenge to the presidential candidates to reform our dysfunctional government. We have the very latest for you.
And: The battles of south Europe building a critically important aircraft for our Air Force. A leading congressman in that battle will join us. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Senator John McCain is taking a break from campaign trail next week. McCain, one of the biggest proponents of free trade, will visit Mexico and Colombia. Now, McCain says he's visiting the two countries to show support for our allies in the drug wars and the pending free trade with Colombia.
Now, joining me now for more on McCain's trip -- the best three of the best political analysts in the country. We're joined by "New York Daily News" columnist and CNN contributor, Errol Louis; we are joined by Ben Smith, senior political reporter for Politico.com; and in our D.C. bureau, syndicated columnist and CNN contributor, Diana West, and Diana is also the author of "Death of the Grown-up."
Thanks for being with us.
We have to start with John McCain. He was in Canada a few days ago. He's now going to Mexico and Colombia -- free trade, free trade. Why do you think that in an American election -- Ben, you've covered every primary -- in an American election, he is spending so much time in foreign countries?
BEN SMITH, POLITICO.COM: He is unapologetic proponent of free trade, which is unpopular and you know, he is trying to sell it and he's in fact, what he's doing in Latin America is he is trying link it to security and he is saying we have to have free trade with Colombia and Mexico because we need to support our allies and the drug wars as opposed to, the other argument which is it's good for the economy, it's good for exports, because people aren't buying that one.
PILGRIM: This is the classic Bush administration defense of the free trade policy with Colombia and Mexico that they link it to the drug issues. Errol, any thoughts on this?
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Well, I don't think there are all not that many rabid pro free trade groups of voters out there, so if you want to figure out why he is doing it from an electoral standpoint, my guess is that this is a way of trying to get some traction with Latino voters. I don't think it's a particularly smart or effective way of doing it, but that would seem to be the motive. You know, in that, that's a long time practice in New York politics, you go to the home countries of a lot of your foreign-born or foreign- descendent constituents. I think though that it's a waste of time. I think it suggests a campaign that's a little bit adrift. He's got much bigger problems than trying to make nice with Latino voters.
PILGRIM: Let me show you what the spokesman from McCain said about the trip. We have a "Senator McCain wants to demonstrate that if elected president the two key trading partners can be assured that they will have a respectful but experienced and focused leader in the White House. Sounds like he is trying to be presidential, Diana.
DIANA WEST, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": Yes, I think that's true and I completely agree with Errol's assessment. I think this is an attempt to make inroads into the Hispanic communities and I, again, I also think it is the timing is a bit odd. He does have a lot of ducks to get in a row going into the campaign now, but again, the Hispanic vote it could very well be a swing vote in many states, and he is doing as much as he can to shore up his credentials.
PILGRIM: You know, he is also drawing a very sharp contrast with Senator Obama and McCain has said about his free trade agenda, "I am the biggest free marketer and free trader you will ever see." And Senator Obama is calling for a renegotiation of NAFTA, so is this an attempt to put a little distance between his opponent? Ben?
SMITH: I think what you will hear him say about Obama is that Obama is being irresponsible and Obama doesn't know how the world works and Obama would screw up his, this very important security arrangements and then McCain is the grownup. McCain is the one who can handle these international relations. Diana, do you think this is important to link it to the drug war? I mean, It certainly is two separate issues?
WEST: Well, it is separate, but I mean, these are sources of drugs that come into this country. I think that it is also very interesting to see what Senator Obama says, because now he has also said that some of his rhetoric on NAFTA was "overheated." So I am not really sure where this is going. It is something in progress.
PILGRIM: Are we seeing a little bit of flip-flop with Obama or some waffling?
WEST: Oh to, be sure. I mean, this is the very interesting thing that is happening as we see candidates as they always do tacking to the center, we are seeing some extraordinary straddling in Senator Obama's lineup of issues whether it is on the gun rights or whether it is on the negotiating without preconditions or whether it is on NAFTA, indeed, I mean, we are seeing a lot of these things and what is interesting is that we are not seeing the press take him to task on this.
PILGRIM: Errol?
LOUIS: Well, the system certainly favors and really calls for this kind of convergence at the center from both candidates and that is what you are certainly seeing. I think is McCain's case, his sort of attempt to put distance between them by being this free trader and traipsing around in Latin America, I think the other shoe is going to drop when as the biggest free trader you will ever see, he stands in front of displaced workers, out of work factory workers in Ohio and in Pennsylvania and in other swing states. And he's going to hear from those guys.
PILGRIM: It seems like almost about strategy in that respect. You know, let's take a look, because we have a poll of polls, and this is June 16-25, registered voters. We have Obama at 47 percent and McCain 40 percent and 13 percent unsure. So in the light of, you know, President Bush's low approval ratings and consumer confidence, you have woes in the economy and you see McCain having an already sort of party drag on his campaign so-to-speak. It seems that taking a risky tact like visiting foreign countries seems extraordinarily risky under the circumstances?
SMITH: Well, he has to do something and he has not really hit a stride going you know, going from stop to stop in the U.S. and yes, I think that you know, he is trying to portray himself as a world leader, and as a man of stature and of principle and is going to say, you know, I disagree with you on this but I'm telling you that I do not disagree and I'm not flip-flopping and trying to draw the contrast.
PILGRIM: Yes, but that's stick-to-ittiveness will not be as Errol points out will not really fly.
LOUIS: It's not going to be welcomes in Ohio, it will be welcome -
SMITH: Political strategists will be scratching their heads as they come in the fall wondering why he wasn't spending every minute not out in Latin America, but going to the conservative Republican base and trying to get them behind him. He has not nailed that down. He needs to be talk into evangelicals. He needs to be in small towns. He needs to be as Diana put it, getting his ducks in a row.
SMITH: Well, who knows, I mean, his strength is that he is not capturing the conservative Republican base the way, you know, the way Obama now has to move as the way Senator McCain does not as much because he had the whole primary -
PILGRIM: But Ben, he is captive to the Republican party line on this issue though. SMITH: On trade, yes. To part of the Republican party, certainly.
PILGRAM: OK. We're going to take a quick break. We'll have much more from our panel. We'll talk about the campaign going forward. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: We are back with Errol Louis, Ben Smith and Diana West. Let's go to the unity rally of Obama and Clinton trying to mend fences and put up a united front. It is very interesting. What do you make of this sort of appeasement between the two campaigns?
SMITH: Well, I mean, it is something that they both absolutely have to do and partly because everybody is really suspicious of their relationship and has a sense that they're this odd couple and great drama and Obama is going to take advantage of it as much as he can if he ever needs to get a message out, he gets Hillary up on their on stage, and people are going to pay attention. Clinton meanwhile has no choice. I mean she has to stay in there for a political future to stay, in campaigning as hard as she can for Obama, and that is what she is going to do.
PILGRIM: How much of this is connected to Clinton's campaign debts and Obama himself made a personal contribution $2,300, the maximum. How much of this is about the money or is this about ?
LOUIS: Well, you know how it goes. Whenever people say it's not the principle, it's not the money, it's the principle. That means, it's the money. Right. So there is a $20 plus million debt to be retired and Obama with a flurry dramatic gesture of writing a check for $2,300 for himself and $2,300 for his wife, which you know, is a meaningless amount in and of itself is signaling, I don't want to get blamed for leaving her in the lurch.
In her case, though, it's going to take a lot more than that. She - that is a "titanic" amount of money. That is an awful lot of money and an awful lot of money. And there are lots and lots of small vendors. We shouldn't lose sight of the catering halls and all kinds of people providing all kinds of campaign services. They are the ones who are really being hurt. So you know, I don't think that it is helpful to just think of it as one candidate versus another, but there is a whole sort of a campaign apparatus in many, many states.
PILGRIM: Grass root suppliers basically.
LOUIS: Absolutely.
PILGRIM: Diana, do you think that there is still some animosity among voters with the campaigns, and that is a real question mark as to whether or not that can be bridged.
WEST: Well, that is what is very interesting, because particularly, Mrs. Clinton continues to work the poor-me, sexism, with the end of my campaign. She's been working this theme for the past several weeks, even going so far as to talk to the "Washington Post" about it. And you are seeing an eruption of web sites by feminists putting out their notions that unity smunity really in terms of what will happen in the election in the fall campaign. So is she putting up a good face or is she working to sabotage? And we just don't know with the Clintons. Once again, this is --
PILGRIM: There is so much reading of the tea leaves. Go ahead.
SMITH: Zero evidence of that. The massive movement turned out 20 people outside an event the other day which is basically kind of the sum of the organized dead end, you know, Clinton movement.
WEST: But isn't there some talk of a million woman march at the convention? I mean, I'm not sure -
SMITH: And I will believe it when I see it. I haven't heard it.
WEST: Well, perhaps, but she is still talking along these lines.
LOUIS: Well, the history - and this comes up often in closely contested primary seasons. The history though is that over the last four election cycles I think you got a grand total of something in the range of 10 percent to 12 percent of the Democrats defecting to the Republicans, and you know, my sense is that there will probably be those die-hard Clinton supporters are probably in deeply blue states, so it is not as if they could really swing the election one way or another and I don't know if it becomes a factor.
SMITH: Well, certainly there are suburban women and that is the group that the Obama campaign and McCain campaigns are working hard, who voted for Hillary in the primary or who sympathize with her and are looking at the general election. And you know, Obama is out there talking both to the abortion rights and it's actually more of sort of the Republican economic policies that, you know, he says he will reverse discrimination in the workplace, that stuff. But you know, at the moment, Obama pulls much better than Democrats than John McCain does with Republicans, like the person with the problem with the base is McCain.
PILGRIM: Diana, something to add?
WEST: No, that is good thought.
PILGRIM: OK. Let's move on to the electoral map which I am finding pretty interesting these days and we will put it up for our viewers. If you look at important CNN projections. They now have Obama leading 231 to McCain's - let's see if I can read this - 194 states. Nine states still toss up including Michigan, we are talking about this earlier, Michigan, Ohio and Florida, Ben what is this saying to you? Having been in every one of those states, practically during --
SMITH: Well, I mean, the electoral map, when you look at these polls, it looks like Obama has the edge. It looks like they're the states that you would not expect him to be playing in necessarily from Colorado to Iowa and places that Bush won where, you know, where he looked strong. If he can keep places like Alaska, Georgia on the table, he is incredibly strong, but if that map shrinks that down. You know, people who voted for Bush come around to voting for McCain and what McCain hopes is that it turns back into a battle for Ohio basically.
LOUIS: And we should keep in mind in the chess game, big states like Florida, Obama ma has not given up on Florida by any means. I mean, he has been doing a wave of appearances. I was interviewing Bob Wexler, a congressman from southern Florida and he ticked off. I was shocked. He ticked off about ten appearances that Obama has done just in the last couple of few weeks. So all of the attention is going to the unexpected states. You know, the Virginias, the Iowas, and the Colorados that he may be trying to flip, but they have by no means written off the usual suspects Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida.
SMITH: And he can afford do both which is an advantage.
PILGRIM: Diana, thoughts on this?
WEST: Well, I thought it was very interesting actually. Ben's politico.com comment a really interesting story about the way the old Elian Gonzalez story may play into this campaign, given that Senator Obama has to two advisors, Greg Craig and Eric Holder who are identified with the repatriation of Elian Gonzales against the will of the Cuban-American community there. Will that be a factor in Florida, could be?
PILGRIM: She's quoting you, Ben. Any rebuttal?
SMITH: It is my colleague's story but absolutely, that's certainly something the McCain's campaign is raising and could wind up hurting him again. At the moment, McCain is at the moment kind of underperforming with Hispanic voters in Florida in the polls. And actually this year for the first time, there are more Hispanic Democrats than Hispanic Republicans in Florida and that is sort of a landmark. But you know, but absolutely, that is something that McCain is going to be contesting really hard.
PILGRIM: Really interesting, it's getting a lot better too. Errol Louis, Ben Smith, Diana West, always a pleasure. Thanks.
SMITH: OK.
PILGRIM: Coming up, are former generals and admirals helping defense contractors build weapons that won't work? We will have a special report.
Also the fight to stop outsourcing of our defense and national security. A lawmaker at the center of that fight is among our guest. So stay with us.
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PILGRIM: A new government report found cost overruns on more than 70 new weapons systems for the Pentagon costing taxpayers billions of dollars. Now critics say that one reason could be the large number of former military officials who are working for defense contractors. Lisa Sylvester reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A government accountability report found that in 2006 alone more than 2,400 senior D.O.D. officials including generals and admirals left the government to work for private defense contractors and of those more than 400 D.O.D. officials had new jobs that could have been work involving defense contract awarded by their former offices. The project on government oversight says it creates an appearance of a conflict of interest.
SCOTT AMEY, PROJECT ON GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT: When you have issues of the revolving door or contracts that have been handed out or steered to a specific contractor because of who they knew in the government rather than what they know, that makes the public question the integrity of our government.
SYLVESTER: Senator Bernie Sanders blames the revolving door as one reason that the taxpayers paid $300 billion in cost overruns for military weapons systems.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I) VERMONT: We want to make sure that the taxpayers get the value for what they are spending. And I think that the time is long overdue for the Congress to take a very, very hard look at the waste and fraud that is taking place within the Department of Defense.
SYLVESTER: A D.O.D. official told CNN that Pentagon officials are not prohibited from working for defense contractors and that just working for a contractor does not mean there is an automatic conflict of interest, but in one high profile case, Air Force official Darlene Drewin went to jail for accepting jobs at Boeing for herself and family members while she was working on a $20 billion deal with the company.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: By law, top Pentagon officials who work for the private defense sector cannot lobby their old their old offices for one to two years depending on their government position. Senator Bernie Sanders has offered legislation to make the revolving door more transparent. Right now, former D.O.D. officials are supposed to report their employment, the GAO found several problems with compliance. Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.
PILGRIM: The Government Accountability Office recommended the Air Force reopen the bidding for the $35 billion tanker aircraft contract. The Pentagon originally awarded a contract to the European consortium that builds Airbus and Northrup Grumman, over a competing bid from Boeing. Now the GAO decision however is not binding, but Congressman Todd Tiahrt of Kansas introduced a bill to require the Air Force to rebid that contract and Lou asked the congressman how the rebidding would work?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. TODD TIAHRT (R), KANSAS: Well, let's tighten it up so that you have a level playing field for American workers and let's rebid this contract. That is basically what it does. The Air Force really has three options, they can ignore what the GAO said, they could rebid it or they could award it to the Boeing company, but we think that right now it looks like they're moving towards a recompetition.
LOU DOBBS, CNN HOST: Well, a recompetition, what about the idea of American defense contractors, for example, including Northrup Grumman working with Boeing to build this contract rather than putting them in competition with one another and bringing in Airbus or any other foreign firm to allow the United States government to outsource national security? It makes no sense.
TIAHRT: No, it doesn't make any sense, and this GAO report was scathing and it said that the Air Force violated their own rules, they misled the Boeing company and miscalculated the cost and the Boeing company was actually the lowest, and so it is really difficult for us to understand why they would bend over backwards to outsource our national security to the French.
DOBBS: Well, this is point blank and I want everybody to see this if they could from the General Accountability Office, who put up this full screen that says to sustain that protest, "The United States Air Force conducted misleading an unequal discussions with Boeing." I mean, that is outrageous. Now I know that part of Boeing is in your home district there in Wichita, but I mean, this is crazy stuff.
TIAHRT: Well, they also said that the French tanker was noncompliant. That means it's ineligible from the beginning and the Air Force overlooked that.
DOBBS: And no mention of the fact that Airbus is subsidized. That EADS is in the business of subsidies, but again, this idea, I want everybody in this country to have a job. I am sorry, that is just me. I'd like the folks down in Alabama to have their jobs in this. I'd like the folks in Kansas and in Washington all around the country working for Boeing and Northrup Grumman to be working on this project together. Is that a possibility here?
TIAHRT: Well, not under the current ground rules.
DOBBS: Well, let's fix it. Let's fix the ground rules. You are the boss. You're in Congress?
TIAHRT: Well, that is why I put this RFP together that lays out a level playing field for American workers. It would allow a Northrup Grumman and a Boeing to team together in this situation.
DOBBS: All right.
TIAHRT: But right now we want American workers to be employed and that is how I designed the request for proposal in this new legislation so that we an have an equal level playing field, because I believe we win. We work harder and we are more productive.
DOBBS: I don't. Congressman, I have to be honest with you. I want an equal playing field for our workers without question, but I don't want national security and I don't think most Americans don't want national security ever outsourced ever again.
TIAHRT: You are absolutely right.
DOBBS: I just want to compliment you and congratulate you on this legislation, sensible in the national interest - wow, what are you thinking about Congressman?
TIAHRT: Well, I'm thinking that we got a good chance here to make it right for the American workers who work hard everyday and feed the families and pay taxes and the people we need to continue a strong economy in a safe nation.
DOBBS: Congressman Todd Tiahrt, we thank you for being here. Appreciate it.
TIAHRT: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Still ahead, a challenge for the presidential candidates, Lou's conversation with the author of the important book "The government ill executed" Paul Light will join us.
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PILGRIM: Professor Paul Light is the author of an important new book "A government ill executed." When Professor Light was here last on this broadcast, he spoke with Lou about the role of lobbyists preventing the effective functioning at the federal government. Presidential candidates resolved to take action and on the issue of lobbying, at least within the executive branch, here was Professor Light has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PROF. PAUL LIGHT: Get Obama and McCain to join hands right now and introduce an amendment to the 1978 Ethics Act and get it done before the convention. Make it law. Why not reach across the --
DOBBS: They can show some leadership, couldn't they?
LIGHT: Yes, absolutely could.
DOBBS: All right. Paul Light is joining me in this challenge, senators, let's do it, how about it?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, Lou asked Professor Light about what kind of a response he has received from the candidates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIGHT: Well, they are not saying much of anything. They've got so many promises to make, that they really don't want to talk about how to deliver I am afraid.
DOBBS: They don't want to talk about it. These guys are, you know, John McCain wants to present himself as a man, a legislator of reform. Senator Obama wants to talk about all of this blabber about being an agent of change. Neither one of them has the guts to come out and talk about a single change in the role of lobbyists in their administrations, how sick to your stomach does that make you?
LIGHT: Well, you know they are both sitting U.S. senators.
DOBBS: There is one problem.
LIGHT: Well, but they are the first two senators to run against each other in dozens of presidential elections, and they could do something right now. And the fact that they are not doing anything is outrageous.
DOBBS: Why is it that the national media, the press corps, and these political parties, they are really branding organizations, fund- raising organizations more than political parties, but nonetheless, the Republicans and the Democrats, why is there no drive within them to change the way Washington works? The way that administrations work? Or the way that Congress works?
LIGHT: Well, you know, if you take away all of the special interests people who are going to work for McCain or Obama, you would have an empty administration. Washington thrives on this kind of activity.
DOBBS: So you are saying that the revolving door between government and lobbyists spending almost $3 billion last year in Washington crowding out the American people, the people, that they simply could not function, because no one has such a high and lofty ambition as to serve the nation without thinking about the revolving door and being paid off on the other end of that journey in a lobbying firm?
LIGHT: I'll bet you right now that two thirds of every appointee in the next admin administration will have a zip code inside the beltway. That is just the way it is.
DOBBS: Paul, come back soon. We will be talking.
LIGHT: We will keep pushing.
DOBBS: You got it. "Government ill executed" indeed, if they could get to that level of progress. Thank you very much, Paul.
LIGHT: You are welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Thank you for joining us. Please join us tomorrow, and please join Lou on the radio, Monday through Friday for the "Lou Dobbs Show." Go to loudobbsradio.com to find local listings for the "Lou Dobbs Show" on the radio. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
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