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Lou Dobbs This Week
Olympics Open in Beijing; Border Patrol Shooting Case
Aired August 10, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST: Tonight, the Beijing Olympics are under way. We'll examine communist China's increased repression and other disregard for basic human rights.
Also, charges of betrayal after a convicted illegal alien smuggler receives a shorter sentence than the Border Patrol agents who shot him. We have all that and much more, straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debate, and opinion. Here now: Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everyone.
Democratic Party officials tonight are trying to downplay reports of new tensions between Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. Now, some supporters of Senator Clinton want a vote or a nomination at the Democratic convention in three weeks. Obama rejected suggestions that rivalries between supporters would upset the event.
Later, the Democratic Party announced that former President Bill Clinton will address the convention on the third night.
Candy Crowley reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Barack Obama will accept the Democratic nomination; presumably, they'll have the kinks worked out by then.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D-IL) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're still working out the mechanics of the four days and our staffs are in communication with Senator Clinton's staffs, but I don't anticipate any problems.
CROWLEY: Obama's sunny side up assessment runs counter to subterranean grumbling from some residents of "Clintonland" and some peculiar phrase from Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton's embrace of a plan to put her name into nomination.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) NEW YORK: I happen to believe that we will come out stronger if people feel that their voices were heard and their views were respected.
CROWLEY: In the modern era of presidential primaries, no losing candidate has so visibly endorsed their opponent months before the convention and still put their name into nomination. CLINTON: I know from just what I'm hearing that there's this incredible pent up desire. And I think that, you know, people want to feel like, "OK, it's a catharsis, we're here, we did it, and then everybody get behind Senator Obama."
CROWLEY: It is kink number one.
OBAMA: I'm letting our respective teams work out the details. And I don't think we're looking for catharsis, I think what we're looking for is energy and excitement about the prospects of changing this country.
CROWLEY: Kink t two -- a still smoldering Bill Clinton capable of blazing into the headlines. ABC asked if Barack Obama was ready to be president.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You could argue that no one is ever ready to be president. I mean, I certainly learned a lot about the job in the first year. And he's smart as a whip, so there's nothing he can't learn.
CROWLEY: A simple "yes" would have done nicely but the Obama camp knows the relationship with the former president needs work. Obama, who spoke with Clinton on the phone on Thursday, is bent on accentuating the positives.
OBAMA: I thought he showed extraordinary restraint in a fairly provocative interview while he was on his trip. I couldn't ask for him to be any more gracious than he's been and supportive since the campaign.
CROWLEY: Conspiracy theorists think the Clintons want Obama to lose so she can run again in four years, but close friends insist that's baloney.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Republicans tonight are also trying to present a united front and this after reports that Vice President Dick Cheney might skip the Republican convention at the beginning of next month. And one reason, apparently, Senator McCain's efforts to distance himself from the Bush administration. But it turns out that Senator McCain has now invited the vice president to speak at the convention in Minneapolis-Saint Paul.
Senator McCain is repeatedly hammering Senator Obama on the economy in an effort to win the support of independent voters. McCain is attempting to present himself as a maverick that offers nonpartisan policies to tackle our economy and energy crisis.
Ed Henry with the McCain campaign reports from Lima, Ohio -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, John McCain was already trying to get political credit for the surge working in Iraq. What's interesting is he's now trying to take the same approach to fixing the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): Using the same language as the war debate, John McCain is now vowing to boost the economy with tax cuts -- just as vigorously as he worked to send more troops to Iraq last year.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R-AZ) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What we need is an economic strategy, an economic surge -- a successful economic surge to keep jobs here at home and create new ones.
HENRY: McCain also sharpened his attacks on Barack Obama, mocking his lack of experience.
MCCAIN: All Americans should be proud of his accomplishments, but Washington is full of talented talkers.
HENRY: In a new refrain, he charged Obama's economic approach boils down to increasing taxes and government spending.
MCCAIN: Government's too big, he wants to grow it. Taxes are too high, he wants to raise them. Congress spends too much and he proposes more. We need more energy and he's against producing it.
HENRY: McCain was particularly harsh on energy, yet, again, hammering the Democrat for urging Americans to inflate their tires.
MCCAIN: He's claiming that putting air in your tires is the equivalent -- is the equivalent of new offshore drilling. That's not an energy plan, my friends, that's a public service announcement.
HENRY: Obama fired back that the tire gauge issue shows McCain is more interested in scoring political points than solving the crisis.
OBAMA: You've got a -- number one, John McCain pretending that was some centerpiece of my policy as oppose to have response to town hall meetings. Then it turns out that John McCain himself said that actually inflating your tires was a smart thing to do, as did President Bush.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: But the McCain camp does feel like it's scoring on energy. At a town hall meeting here, he blasted Congress for going on vacation before dealing with high gas prices. There was a huge standing ovation and then a McCain operative turned to me and said, quote, "We're kicking blank on energy." They think they have Obama on the defensive -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks, Ed. Ed Henry, reporting.
New evidence tonight of voters' continued skepticism about Senator Obama's candidacy. A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll says nearly 1/3 of voters believe it will be very risky to elect Obama president. Now, this data could help explain why Obama seems to have stalled in the opinion polls Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Every forecasting model for this election predicts a Democratic landslide. Strange then, when you ask voters to choose between Barack Obama and John McCain, the polls show a very close race. Imagine if President Bush were running for re-election or if Dick Cheney were running to succeed him. Can you say blow out?
John McCain is a Republican, but he's not part of the Bush administration -- as he takes pains to make clear.
MCCAIN: We disagreed over the conduct of the war in Iraq and the treatment of detainees; over out-of-control government spending and budget gimmicks, over energy policy and climate change.
SCHNEIDER: A whopping 3/4 of Americans believe things are going badly in the country. Voters who feel that way have a very low opinion of President Bush. But their displeasure does not seem to extend to McCain. They kind of like him.
Barack Obama is new, he's young, he's relatively inexperienced. A lot of voters see Obama as risky business.
OBAMA: Basically what they're saying to you is, "We know we didn't do a real good job, but he's too risky."
SCHNEIDER: Obama is promising change. The downside of change is risk. If you want change, you have to take risks.
The last time the mood of the country was this bad was 1980 when Jimmy Carter was running for re-election and Ronald Reagan promised change. People saw Reagan as risky, too.
That election was close until the last week when Reagan posed this question...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, OCTOBER 28, 1980)
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Are you better off than you were four years ago?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER: Senator Obama...
OBAMA: I just want to ask you a simple question, maybe a familiar one. Are you better off now than you were four years ago or eight years ago?
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: No.
SCHNEIDER (on camera): The upside of risk is change. They go together. Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: A new poll indicates many voters may already be tired of hearing about Senator Obama. Election Day is still almost three months away. The Pew Research Center Poll says 48 percent of voters are saying that they're hearing too much about Obama. Just 26 percent of voters said they are hearing too much about Senator McCain.
Now, the results of the poll reflect the huge media coverage of Obama. Obama is receiving much more attention than McCain.
A victory for justice and states rights. The state of Texas is upholding its right to execute a convicted murderer and rapist despite protests from the World Court and the Bush administration. We'll have the details, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Convicted rapist and murderer, Jose Medellin was executed this week in Texas. Now, the U.S. Supreme Court and Texas Governor Rick Perry rejected Medellin's final appeals. This case drew international attention after the World Court said the United States violated Medellin's rights.
And, as Lisa Sylvester reports, the controversy continues even after the execution.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tensions were high as the hours ticked by. More than three hours after Jose Medellin was set to die, the U.S. Supreme Court in a 5-4 order declined to stay his execution. The Mexican national confessed to the brutal gang rape and murder of two Texas teens in 1993.
His innocence was never the issue, but, rather, a technicality. If his case was somehow prejudiced because he was not allowed to contact the Mexican Consulate upon his arrest, a right guaranteed by the Vienna Conventions on consular relations. The World Court at The Hague reviewed the case and ordered a new judicial review for Medellin.
Medellin's lawyer said the United States needs to live up to its treaty obligations.
SANDRA BABCOCK, ATTORNEY FOR JOSE MEDELLIN: It's about the reputation of the United States as a nation that adheres to the rule of law and it's about the commitment we made to Mexico and to our other treaty partners.
SYLVESTER: Amid protests and a flurry of last minute appeals, the state of Texas maintained the World Court has no jurisdiction in the United States, only the U.S. Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court agreed because Congress never passed a law requiring the states to comply with the conventions.
The issue doesn't end with Medellin. Some 50 other Mexican nationals remain on death row under similar circumstances.
Representative Howard Berman has introduced legislation in Congress that would allow foreign nationals to challenge convictions if they are not informed of their right to speak to their foreign consulate. But the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation, a victim's rights group, says the bill goes too far.
KENT SCHEIDEGGER, CRIMINAL JUSTICE LEGAL FOUNDATION: The Berman legislation goes vastly beyond anything that the United States is required to do by its treaty obligations. The only obligation rising out of this judgment relates to the 50 or so cases that were actually at issue before the international court of justice. So, a bill that would apply to all cases over all time is not required by our obligations and it's not good law and it's not good policy.
SYLVESTER (on camera): As for fallout for the Medellin execution, Mexico filed a diplomatic protest with the U.S. State Department after he was executed. Mexico is still insisting that the U.S. government grant new reviews for the other 50 Mexican nationals who are on death row.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: New developments in the anthrax investigation. Government officials this week say they are confident Army scientist Bruce Ivins was the only person responsible for the 2001 attacks that killed five people.
But as Jeanne Meserve reports, the evidence against Ivins is purely circumstantial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There is no confession, no eyewitness, but the government says the evidence against Bruce Ivins is compelling.
JOSEPH PERSICHINI, FBI ASST. DIR.: Dr. Bruce E. Ivins was responsible for the death, sickness, and fear brought to our country by the 2001 anthrax mailing.
MESERVE: Scientific breakthroughs, the government says, genetically link the anthrax used in the attacks to a flask solely maintained by Bruce Ivins.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The spores used in the attacks were taken from that specific flask, regrown, purified, dried, and loaded into the letters. No one received material from that flask without going through Dr. Ivins.
MESERVE: The government alleges that during the anthrax probe Ivins submitted false samples of anthrax from his lab to mislead investigators and pointed the finger at other scientists.
It says that Ivins could not adequately explain the long hours he was working alone in his lab around the time of the anthrax attacks, that the envelopes used in the attacks were sold at a post office in the Frederick, Maryland area where Ivins had a post office box, that Ivins frequently drove long distances to mail items sometimes using fake names, and that Ivins had a long history of mental issues.
The evidence is all circumstantial.
In a statement, Ivins' lawyer said, "The government's press conference was an orchestrated dance of carefully-worded statements, heaps of innuendo and a staggering lack of real evidence -- all contorted to create the illusion of guilt by Dr. Ivins."
And some legal experts agree the case has weaknesses.
GUY SINGER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: They certainly do not have, you know, anyone saying they saw him mail it, anyone saying that he admitted it. It's a case that clearly has room for argument regarding reasonable doubt.
MESERVE (on camera): And what was the motive? According to the government, Ivins was concerned in 2001 that an anthrax vaccine program he was working on would be discontinued. The anthrax attacks guaranteed its future.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The nation's airlines are in a state of chaos tonight. We'll tell you what you'll be paying for now, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The U.S. airline industry is struggling to survive the current financial crisis, but the industry seems to be doing its best to drive customers away. The flying public now has to put up with long delays, declining service, and charges for items that were once part of the ticket price.
Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Between flight delays in June, 30 percent of all flights were delayed, luggage delays, checked baggage charges, most airline passengers have reached their limit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is very frustrating and it's unacceptable to me.
KATE HANNI, FLYERSRIGHTS.ORG: Most passengers are saying, just charge me for the ticket, charge me for the cost of an actual flight and don't charge me for my bags. TUCKER: But things don't end there, there are charges for food and drinks, even charges for a pillow and a blanket. The industry calls it a la carte pricing. It's a big change from the traditional pricing of tickets, but it means the cost of a flight could be significantly more than the cost of just a ticket.
CAPT. JOHN PRATER, AIRLINE PILOTS ASSN. INTL.: This system is not working. We need a -- we need a conference, just like we do on scheduling practices and capacity of airplanes. Let's put one together on pricing of the market.
TUCKER: In the past six months, the number of flights flown has been cut by more than 8 percent. By the end of this year, the Airline Transport Association says about 100 smaller airports have lost or will lose at least one commercial airline, about 30,000 jobs will be lost.
And no one knows where the price of fuel will be, but it was up 70 percent from January through July. Already this year, nine airlines have gone out of business and two were in bankruptcy protection while they reorganized their businesses.
VAUGHN CORDLE, AIRLINEFORECASTS: Financial distress is quite dramatic today. We estimate the industry will lose over $6 billion this year, at $120 oil. And the balance sheets will take many years to recover. They can't put money back into the competitive resources, so customer service will actually get worse.
TUCKER: The situation is so bad there are some that are calling for the re-regulation of the airlines, or perhaps for a government takeover of the industry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: There is one exception, Southwest Airlines, which is advertising that they have no add-on fees. They are different because of oil price hedging. As a result of mostly trades made years ago, Southwest says they've paid about $51 a barrel for 70 percent of this year's fuel needs, instead of the current price of about $120 a barrel. So, a smart play in the future's market is helping Southwest, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Bill, you know, part of this is beyond the current financial crisis, and part of this is structural. And do you think that legislation could help or some intervention by the government?
TUCKER: Well, ATA, the industry group, Airline Transport Association, says the single biggest best thing that Congress could do would devise an energy policy, increase some stability in the market, because the fuel costs, they say, right now are what are hurting them the most.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
While most airlines are cutting back, they're also adding fees for frequent flier programs. And as of this week, U.S. Airways will start charging between $25 and $50 to book reward tickets. They're also cutting bonus miles for elite frequent flyers.
Continental Airlines is also raising fees and will no longer allow frequent flyers to buy the last seat on the plane. American Airlines added $5 fee for booking reward tickets online. And American is also increasing the number of miles needed to buy frequent flier tickets. And Delta, adding a fuel surcharge of $25 to $50 for reward tickets. Northwest is adding a fuel surcharge of $20 to $100.
Well, another betrayal for Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean this week. We'll hear from two lawmakers who call this latest injustice simply disgusting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Illegal alien drug smuggler, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila was sentenced to more than nine years in prison on drug charges. He was the key witness in the case against former Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean. The supporters of the agents are outraged that the drug smuggler received a shorter sentence than the two law enforcement officers who tried to apprehend him.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, an illegal alien drug smuggler was sentenced by an El Paso federal judge to 9 1/2 years in prison for helping smuggle two large loads of marijuana into the United States in 2005.
Later, Davila appeared in the same courtroom under immunity from prosecution by U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton to testify against Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. They had previously intercepted Davila with another drug load near the border. Davila was shot and wounded after a struggle and escaped to Mexico.
Ramos and Compean were convicted of assault, failing to properly report the shooting and using a firearm to commit a crime. They were sentenced by the same judge to 11 and 12 years in prison.
Supporters are furious the smuggler, who continued to run drugs while testifying against Ramos and Compean, received a shorter sentence than the agents.
MONICA RAMOS, WIFE OF IGNACIO RAMOS: How dare they compare a drug dealer to law enforcement officers? How can it be that they would get almost the same identical sentence? My husband has been given a year more. Where's the justice?
WIAN: The jury that convicted Ramos and Compean was prohibited from hearing testimony about Davila's drug smuggling history. An appellate court recently overturned Ramos and Compean's convictions for failing to properly report the shooting but upheld their convictions for using a firearm to commit a crime, which carries a 10-year mandatory minimum sentence.
The agents say as Davila ran toward Mexico, they saw the smuggler turn towards them with a shiny object in his hand. Davila denied that during the trial. At his sentencing, Davila called the shooting an accident, which enraged agent Ramos' family.
JOE LOYA, FATHER-IN-LAW OF IGNACIO RAMOS: You've been sentenced. They can't touch you anymore. Why don't you tell the truth about Ramos and Compean?
WIAN: Congressman Duncan Hunter said in a statement, "The sentencing of Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila offers the president yet another opportunity to do what is right and either pardon or commute the sentences of agents Ramos and Compean."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Davila's attorney argued for an even lesser sentence because of his injuries and low rank among the drug smuggling organization. Judge Kathleen Cardone declined, saying she didn't believe him. She also discounted Davila's story that he was forced to continue smuggling drugs because he had to repay the cartel for losing the first marijuana load.
Prosecutors said, despite Davila's guilty plea, they received little cooperation from the smuggler in going after higher ups in the drug cartel -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Well, this broadcast and many federal lawmakers are fighting to overturn the miscarriage of justice in the Ramos and Compean case and one of the congressmen leading the battle to clear the names of the two former Border Patrol agents joins me now. It's Congressman Brian Bilbray, from San Diego.
And thanks for being with us, sir.
REP. BRIAN BILBRAY (R), CALIFORNIA: Honor to be with you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Your reaction to the Aldrete-Davila sentence less than Ramos and Compean.
BILBRAY: Just disgust, dismay, you know you talk about the injustice of the justice system, it's an oxy moron. You know, we're talking about men and women that are along the border fighting to defend our country and this is sort of just reflects a prejudice against those who are serving as opposed to those who are the predators on our society just crossing the border at will and then using the abuse of our agents as some way to hide from justice.
PILGRIM: We're now joined by Congressman Dana Rohrabacher from Irvine, California, who will join us in this discussion. Congressman Rohrabacher, your reaction to the sentencing.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: Well, people need to pay attention to the details here. The prosecutors and now are arguing the devil off, the legal alien drug smuggler was not a minor player, was a major player in a drug ring and they did this professionally. That's how he earned his living. They never let the jury for Ramos and Compean know that. And in fact, a lot of that they wouldn't have gone after this guy Davila if it wasn't for the fact that information was leaked to my office originally that showed that there was a second drug deal that this man had been fingered for. That too, they wouldn't let the jury know about. So, this analogy in justice of the fact that you have this drug dealer receiving a smaller sentence or shorter sentence than the border patrol agents, but just the whole way this thing was done calls into question the decision to prosecute these people in the first place.
PILGRIM: You know, we do have a quote from U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton. He released a statement about sentencing. He was a prosecutor and let me read that for the benefit of our viewers. "I have been clear from the beginning of this case that my office would prosecute this drug smuggler when we had the evidence to prove his guilt. Thanks to the hard work of the agents of the DEA and DHS, Homeland Security Office Inspector General and federal prosecutors in my office he is on his way to federal prison to serve the sentence that he so justly deserves. Your reaction to that.
ROHRABACHER: Well, that's no big victory for us at all. Ramos and Compean. These are innocent men who protected us by putting our lives on the line for 10 and five years on the border. They're still in prison. I don't care what happens to that drug smuggler.
BILBRAY: Sutton is totally missing the bat of trying to cover himself on this issue. We're talking about a battle zone down there at the border. You realize three times more people have been killed by the drug cartel in the last six months than all the men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan combined have been killed in the last six months and that Sutton is now trying to cover himself on this thing. These agents were serving in an area where there had been firefights with drug dealers with automatic weapons. They were under pressure and there were border patrol agents everywhere.
Let me say this, this is not about two border patrol agents. This is about every men and women who's down there at the border fighting to defend our country and we ought to be standing up and making sure that this kind of injustice not only doesn't happen to these two agents, but no other agents and make sure we send a signal to everybody who serves in our country, defending our southern border that we'll stand up and protect them and not allow this to happen.
PILGRIM: You know what.
ROHRABACHER: We need to hear from John McCain. We need to hear from John McCain and he needs to make his position very clear on this. He should be reaching out and saying I will pardon Ramos and Compean if he expects those of us who are concerned about the border to have faith in him that he's going to protect our national security interests.
PILGRIM: You know, we pointed out on this broadcast that the Mexican military or law enforcement agents have illegally crossed the border 42 times since October and border patrol agents were held at gunpoint by the Mexican military. Congressman Bilbray you talk about the deteriorating situation on this border.
BILBRAY: We didn't give them 10 years, Kitty. We didn't take those Mexican police officers and gave them 10 years because they committed a crime with a gun. That shows you the selective realism that they have down there. And it's almost as if it is politically incorrect to be protecting the neighborhoods of America from these drug smugglers.
PILGRIM: You know, members of Congress have been asking since July of last year for President Bush to pardon Ramos and Compean. 75 members of Congress have signed a letter authorized by Congressman Ted Poe to commute the sentences of Ramos and Compean. No response from the White House.
ROHRABACHER: No response from the White House. But as I say, we're in a presidential election year and anyone who's listening right now should make sure that Senator McCain goes on the record as to whether or not he will pardon Ramos and Compean.
BILBRAY: And Senator Obama.
ROHRABACHER: Well, I would hope Senator Obama. I've almost written off the democrats on this. But if he steps forward, I think it will be a good thing for his campaign.
BILBRAY: If he says he's for change, then show us with some change on the way you're treating our agents at the border. That's the challenge.
PILGRIM: That's fair point. I would like to point out a letter that Congressman Ted Poe wrote to the president. And it reads "the national attention given this case has had a demoralizing effect on the men and women defending America at our border while at the same time, it sends the right message to criminals seeking to do our nation harm."
Is there a long term damage?
ROHRABACHER: Already, we can see it every day right now when -
BILBRAY: You can see it during the fourth of July break that I was up at Spooner's ((inaudible)) Smuggler's and the agents were telling me that snipers were shooting at them across the border. So this has already not only had an effect on the morale, but also on the activity of the drug smugglers.
ROHRABACHER: OK. Listen, every day somebody in California gets raped. Somebody gets ran down by a drunk driver who's an illegal immigrant. Every day we see our kids being short change in our schools or have our health care denied us because we have to wait in line behind a bunch of illegals who are in the emergency room and every day we're suffering here because, for the last 20 years, we've had the wrong policy. Now, we have Johnny Sutton undermining the only the last line of defense that we had, which are our border patrol agents. He made the prosecutorial decision. He didn't have to - he could decide who he would charge and who he would not charge. He decided to charge the border patrol agents and he wasn't even going to let the jury know that this drug dealer that they intercepted was involved in a second drug deal. I mean, this whole thing stinks.
PILGRAM: It's - that pretty much sums it up. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher and Congressman Brian Bilbray, thank you very much for joining us.
BILBRAY: Thanks for having us.
PILGRIM: Well, let the games begin. From concerns over communist Chinese censorship and human rights violations to hazardous pollution controversy, it's taken center stage at the Olympics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The summer Olympic games is under way in China. But the games the Chinese have been playing outside the arena have been stealing a lot of the lot of attention from the athletes. Well, joining me now to discuss the Olympic controversies of 2008, Gordon Chang, author of the provocative book, "The Coming Collapse of China," and Professor Andrew Nathan, chairman of political science at Columbia University and editor of the soon to be released book "How East Asians View Democracy."
GORDON CHANG, "THE COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA": The legacy is going it be a police state. I mean, they put all these measures into place to clamp down on society, don't think that they're all going to be lifted once the athletes go home and the Olympic flame has been doused. We're still going to see all those security cameras. We're going to see probably checkpoints still in place. This is going to be a very different and worse society than it was before the games. The Olympics were supposed to open up China, but they're having the opposite effect.
PILGRIM: Well, Andrew, I would like to get your thoughts. There were a lot of promises made by China when they were awarded these games to the International Olympic Committee. They haven't lived up to these promises, have they?
PROF. ANDREW NATHAN, EDITOR "HOW WAST ASIANS VIEW DEMOCRACY": No, they really haven't. A lot of the promises are still secret. The contract, host city contract has never been published. But a lot of hints were made and maybe with the fingers crossed behind the back or a wink about what the Chinese mean by some of these things. So when the Chinese said you give us the Olympics the situation will improve and people will have press freedom. That's their sense of press freedom which is not really the same as ours. Because they have a controlled press.
PILGRIM: You're a renowned expert on this country. When you heard that China was making a lot of promises about press freedoms, about civil liberties, in advance of these games, did you believe it? Are you surprised by anything that's happening now? NATHAN: I wasn't. I didn't expect China to really change fundamentally because this regime is all about staying in power. One of the things that I've written about called "Authoritarian resilience" is their skill at staying in power and part of it is through economic growth and part of it is through controlling information that the public gets and an important part of it is that the regime knows how to crack down when it feels like it's under threat. That's what we're seeing now. Security is the number one issue for them. They've said so.
PILGRIM: You know, as they've tightened up security and clamped down on human rights, many people think you have to take a position and not change it about these Olympics, but it is an actual shifting landscape, isn't it, Gordon?
CHANG: It is. A lot of things that people expected about these games just haven't come true. And there were all sorts of hopes that China would become much more humane. But it's violated every single human rights pledge that has been made public. And that's a problem in itself. More important is a warning to us about China's trustworthiness because you know, we've signed hundreds of agreements on trade, security, inspection of medicine and China's compliance has been poor. But, you know, people say this is sort of like a coming out party for China. Well, if it is, they will be even worse afterwards and if we can't trust them now, how can we trust them in the future?
PILGRIM: There have been a few terrorist attacks. How worried should the Americans be about the terrorist attacks in Beijing? They have been swept under the rug again and underreported too. Are you worried about this activity?
NATHAN: No, I'm not. In a sense of Americans being safe in Beijing, I believe they will be safe. Of course, it is impossible to ever totally predict but the clamp down in Beijing is very complete. They've been preparing for that for a long, long time.
PILGRIM: President Bush says it's not about politics, it's about supporting the athletes. In one respect it's a very honorable thing and the Olympics are supposed to be above politics, but in their charter, but in fact, they are not and how do you deal with that? Why shouldn't we talk about politics at this point when we're faced with this kind of a country?
CHANG: Well, China's official media has pointed to President Bush's attendance at the opening ceremony and said that the world now accepts China, specifically pointing to Bush. I don't think that he can now maintain that his going there is non-political. Because like it or not, the Chinese have made it so. You know, by the way, President Bush didn't go to the summer games in Athens in 2004, which is the birthplace of democracy, but he's going to the home of authoritarianism which is Beijing. You know, something is wrong with this picture.
PILGRIM: Yes. And we understand that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is also going to be traveling for what is being called a family vacation, although he will be holding some private meetings. We have a good, solid U.S. presence of officials in Beijing for these events.
NATHAN: You know, the China relationship is very important to the U.S. economically, politically, strategically, and I think that the Chinese people will see that our officials not only now, but for a long time have been paying tribute to China, paying court to China and the fact that China is really important. So you can't just wish that it were not there, it is there.
PILGRIM: Gentlemen, this kind of excellent analysis is hard to find. Thank you for joining me this evening for it. Gordon Chang, Andrew Nathan, thank you.
Bill Clinton will speak at the democratic convention this month. Will the Clintons steal the spotlight from Obama? Three of the best political analysts in the country discuss that and more, next.
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PILGRIM: Joining me now are three of the country's top political analysts and CNN contributors. We have democratic strategist, Hank Sheinkopf, "New York Daily News" columnist Errol Louis and Errol is also the host of the morning show on WWRL in New York City, and republican strategist Ed Rollins. Ed is the former White House political director under President Reagan and he recently served as campaign chairman for the Mike Huckabee presidential campaign. Gentlemen, thanks for being with me.
We look forward to the convention, it's in a very short amount of time, several weeks. We still are in this discussion about the Clintons. The shadow of the Clintons that is still hanging over the Obama campaign. The big question is, will Hillary Clinton force a vote on the convention floor and insist on being on the ballot that is under discussion this week quite a bit. What is your thought?
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think it would be disaster for her and certainly for the convention. These are very well-structured. It would drag out of primetime. It wouldn't be very exciting at the end of the day, unless she really tries to make a fight out of it, and I think to a certain extent it will diminish the unity that has to come out of that convention. You have to come roaring out of these things with a unified party and I think at the end of that, that wouldn't be very unified.
PILGRIM: Clinton supporters, though, are really not giving up. They're pushing very hard. There still seems to be a bit of a psychological rift on the many people that are having trouble making the leap to the Obama platform and Obama campaign era.
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": That's right. And look, Hillary Clinton is giving them a smile and a wink. I mean, she's, you know, we have that revealing footage from them at what was supposed to be a unity event and she's pointing out well, she refers to Obama as my opponent. She throws out the fact of the matter is she says, that look, you don't need me. Delegates have the right to go ahead and it only takes a couple hundred, apparently. She kind of laid out really a scenario for people to make all the mischief that I had just alluded that would divide the convention and hamstring the campaign.
PILGRIM: She's also talking about catharsis and you know, this is several weeks after she gave a major speech saying let's pull together, still talking about catharsis, is it divisive? Hank, what do you think?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It's not divisive. Nobody loses because they like losing. And these are never, never professional about this, little personal. She's got to get over it. The Obama people also have to get over it and try to present a united front. They hate each other a lot. Campaign together and try to win the campaign.
PILGRIM: You know, former President Bill Clinton will also speak at the democratic convention just ahead of these soon to be named hopefully vice presidential picks. The juxtaposition of those two speeches, what do you think about that placement?
ROLLINS: He always dominated one with the exception of the one where he gave the keynote speech and went on for hours and hours.
PILGRIM: That's right.
ROLLINS: But he still is a great speaker. You know, he still is a very significant player in this party. And he could do a lot to basically unify and talk about how important it is to go back and retool his legacy. And if he did that it would be a good speech. If he tries to be the star of the night and take away from the vice president it would hurt.
PILGRIM: He is a very effective speaker and it could generate a bit of buzz on the convention floor. Errol.
LOUIS: Well, that's right. That's why they want him there. I mean, there are too many that like him. They know that he'll be a good draw for worldwide television. I mean, it would be a great spotlight for the party potentially. But it depends. I mean, when asked about a week ago, is Barack Obama qualified to be president, instead of saying the one word, yes, that would have been the right answer, he goes on with a speech. Well, nobody could really be qualified. You can be vice president for eight years, which was sort of a backhanded slap at Gore, as far as I could tell. I mean, nothing. I mean, yes, or yes, of course. Those were the only acceptable answers. He didn't give them.
SHEINKOPF: Which makes the point again as Errol is saying, it is always personal. It doesn't pass quickly. But there's something else at stake. Bill Clinton's legacy as a democrat. This could be the resurrection of him as a major foundation stone of the modern democratic party, going into - which should be a victorious cycle with him leading - helping to lead the troops onward. If he wants that, he'll be the Bill Clinton he should be. If he doesn't want that, well it will be a very different story potentially for democrats come the fall. PILGRIM: All right. Let's take a look at the entire political lineup. And we have actually a couple of polls. We have CNN poll of polls and we have Obama at 46 percent, McCain at 41 percent. But we still have a good chunk of people who are unsure. This may be one of those campaigns where the unsure vote goes for a while.
ROLLINS: The undecideds- they're not paying attention to it. People who are undecided are really undecided. You know, I mean, what you really have here is republicans who are pretty much totally supporting McCain. Democrats are pretty much supporting and they split down the middle on the independents who have decided already. And the rest of them are going to wait and they're not going to make up their mind until very, very late. If you go back and look at the history of 2000, and other races in the past that are very close, these independents hold out for a long, long time.
PILGRIM: So don't expect any shift in the fall?
ROLLINS: I think a five, six-point lead is something I'd be happy going into at this point in time. It's all speculation. It's the numerous polls. Everybody else thinking it should be 20 or 30 points. It's never been 20 or 30 points. It's really been significant.
LOUIS: Well, that's right. I mean, when the question comes up and it's been asked by some analysts. You know, gee, how come Obama isn't doing better? They say well, how well is he supposed to do this far out. I mean, you don't get a 10-point lead. I mean, this had been a nation that has been divided over the last three presidential election cycles. Nothing fundamentally has changed to tip it all red or all blue. So, yes, it's going to come down to the wire. And those independents, you know, they are going to make the difference.
SHEINKOPF: He's doing fine at this time in history. Just keep doing what he's doing. But the most important thing we see in polls this week, the public saying, hey we know too much about Barack Obama, which is something we discussed on this program the other night. You know it's really true. They know too much. McCain has to hope that they know enough that they don't like and that's the problem.
PILGRIM: Now, they're just putting up the poll. 48 percent say they know too much about Barack Obama. We'll get into the pitfalls of the campaign a little deeper in a moment. We'll be back with more of our panel. Stay with us.
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PILGRIM: More now with three of the best and the brightest political analysts anywhere. Hank Sheinkopf, Errol Louis and Ed Rollins. Ed, I'd like to ask you about this. We were just talking about the polls showing that some people say they've heard too much about Obama. Do we have Obama fatigue at this point?
ROLLINS: Well, Obama needs a vacation. We need a little vacation from him. And that's the next couple of weeks will be very important both as a vacation and the Olympics. It's been nonstop since January. I mean, it's been every single night, and the interesting thing when you look back, last week was the first week it had to do with the ads we've talked about over and over again.
McCain actually had similar air space on network news and cable news to Obama. Obama has had this gigantic story for a very long period of time. It's not that people don't want him. They just, give us a break, and I think as Hank said, they need to know more about McCain. You're going to see plenty of Obama and McCain once we come back from these conventions.
PILGRIM: Right. And McCain actually got some of this space because he went negative.
ROLLINS: Absolutely.
PILGRIM: Is that the way he should be doing it?
ROLLINS: Well, he had to do something to stop the bleeding. Obama had a tremendous trip and he has been like 20 percent or 30 percent less in air time than Obama.
PILGRIM: You know, it's interesting you talk about Obama going on vacation and he's going to Hawaii. He says he does it every year. It seems that this would be an unusual year to insist on your annual vacation, no?
LOUIS: No, I don't this so. Listen. He needs to rest up. You know, his staff needs some rest, frankly. They are exhausted. The Olympics are going to wipe everything off the front pages anyhow for about 10 days. So it's about as good of a time as he's going to get. And then the big push, I mean, first the convention and then the dash to election day. He's going to need all the energy he can get. So if he was going to take one, a vacation now would be the only time he can do it.
PILGRIM: But McCain is still out there.
LOUIS: Yes, sure. He's got plenty of ground to make up. I don't know how effective it is. I mean, I was looking at this appearance in Iowa he just did. It was kind of lackluster. It was a state that he lost. It's not clear what the message was. I mean, his time might have been better spent resting up, preparing for his convention.
PILGRIM: What do you think, Hank?
SHEINKOPF: I think that McCain has no option but to continue dropping bombs. Why? Because he's got less money. When you got less money you have to create entertainment. Entertainment in American politics isn't I love you. Entertainment in politics is I hate you and I'm going to beat you up and that's a negative campaign commercial.
ROLLINS: He'll really have less money in the next two, three weeks when he basically has done spending the money he's raised. And he's taken the public financing which is $82 million, which means he'll have $40 million or $50 million to spend on television and the rest on travel. Where Barack can basically spend anywhere from $400 million to $500 million. It will be a gigantic advantage. PILGRIM: You know what strikes me about the McCain campaign, you know, he met with DHL in Wilmington, Ohio. They are losing 8,000 jobs. And Rick Davis lobbied Congress to approve that deal and McCain was chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee at that time and then there's this job loss. The McCain campaign has the obligation to actually explain away job attrition, the economy, because they are with the party that's in power right now. He's working against some negative tides. Do you think he's effectively doing it in these sort of blue collar stops?
ROLLINS: He has a campaign run by lobbyists. They've made their money by basically doing things for corporations both here and foreign governments. And I think to a certain extent he's going to pay a price for that. He paid a price the other day for that.
LOUIS: He's going to pay a heavy price in Ohio. I mean, this town of Wilmington, they're losing 8,000 jobs for a town of 13,000 people. I mean, they basically have canceled that town. And those folks are not going to forget it.
SHEINKOPF: Wilmington, Ohio is Missouri, is Ohio, the rest of the state, is Michigan, is western Pennsylvania and may very well be the election.
PILGRIM: All right. Gentlemen, we'll continue to discuss and hopefully everyone gets something of a break before this starts in earnest. Errol Louis, Ed Rollins and Hank Sheinkopf. And thank you for joining us.
Please join us tomorrow. Please join Lou on the radio Monday through Friday for the "Lou Dobbs Show," go to loudobbs.com to find the local listings for the "Lou Dobbs Show," on the radio. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
