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Lou Dobbs This Week
Cheap Labor; Economic Bailout; Ted Turner Interview
Aired November 15, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight: Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson's massive Wall Street bailout is in disarray as President Bush discusses the financial crisis with world leaders. Is this what you call economic leadership? We'll have complete coverage for you.
And tonight: Lobbyists and special interest groups -- they are lining up and pushing President-elect Obama to import even more cheap labor to compete with our middle-class workers. We'll have that report and I'll have a frank and revealing interview with a great American and CNN founder, Ted Turner. Also, he's a pal.
All of that and more: Straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debate, and opinion. Here now: Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson this week announced an abrupt reversal in the federal government's bailout plan for Wall Street. The very same bailout that he said was absolutely essential six weeks ago to avoid calamity. Treasury Secretary Paulson finally acknowledging what we've been saying here for months, that his plan to buy so called "toxic assets" from banks won't work and is unnecessary.
Meanwhile, the Bush administration and congressional Republicans refuse to bail out the big three carmakers. The White House is reluctant to launch any new bailout plan. By some estimates, the existing bailout will cost taxpayers as much as $5 trillion.
Elaine Quijano has our report from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If Congress crafts legislation to rescue financially troubled U.S. automakers, will President Bush sign it? Too early to tell, say aides, but from the Bush administration's perspective, one thing is clear.
DANA PERINO, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The state of the automakers right now is not the president of the United States' fault.
QUIJANO: But as congress looks at possibly giving Detroit a chunk of the $700 billion under the bailout plan, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson announced a significant shift in the program. HENRY PAULSON, TREASURY SECRETARY: When we went to Congress, the liquid assets looked like the way to go. As the situation worsened, the facts changed.
QUIJANO: Originally, he sold to Congress as a way to take troubled assets off banks' books, Paulson said he changed his mine.
PAULSON: I will never apologize for changing an approach or a strategy when the facts change.
QUIJANO: Paulson said he no longer thinks the government buying up bad mortgage-related debt would be effective.
TAMI LUHBY, CNNMONEY.COM: Why consumers should care about this is because once the government owned these troubled mortgages, they would be able to modify the loans, you know, in a much easier way and a much more streamlined way. And now, they can't do that because they are not planning to buy any mortgages.
QUIJANO: Instead, the bailout money so far has been set aside to buy shares in banks: $250 billion, $40 billion to AIG, and $60 billion yet to be committed, leaving the remaining $350 for future use.
(on camera): Secretary Paulson also announced an expansion of the bailout program to include consumer finance institutions like credit card companies and auto and student loan companies. But experts say it could take months before the average consumer would actually find it easier to get a loan.
Elaine Quijano, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: President-elect Obama is calling for urgent government assistance for the automobile industry. The president-elect is considering appointing even a top level official in his new administration to coordinate massive aid for Detroit.
Congressional Democrats are also pushing hard for emergency assistance for Detroit. They want to pass a bill in the lame duck session of Congress before Thanksgiving, but it's highly unlikely that the Democrats will convince Republicans to support a bailout for the carmakers as Kate Bolduan now reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. CHRIS DODD, (D) SENATE BANKING COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: The committee will come to order.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The top Democrat on the Senate Banking Committee, Chris Dodd, a key negotiator of the Wall Street bailout, says there's virtually no Republican support for an auto industry bailout.
DODD: I, one, would like to see us do something. Right now, I don't think of the votes -- I don't know of a single Republican who is willing to support.
BOLDUAN: Dodd now suggests Democrats should reconsider plans to push a Detroit aid package next week.
DODD: I want to be careful about bringing up a proposition that might fail in light of the fact the authority exists. And under an Obama administration, there seems to be a greater willingness to deal with the issue.
BOLDUAN: Dodd's comments follow a blunt statement by the top Republican on the banking committee, Senator Richard Shelby. "The financial situation facing the Big Three is not a national problem but their problem," Shelby said, brought on by their own mistakes.
Republican Senator Mel Martinez is also against the Democrats' proposal to carve out money for the automakers from the $700 billion Wall Street rescue fund.
SEN. MEL MARTINEZ, (R) FLORIDA: I think we ought to focus on that first and that the automobile industry ought to rise on its own merit. And the funding for that ought to come not out of this.
BOLDUAN: A spokesman for Republican Leader Mitch McConnell insists Republicans aren't against helping the auto industry, but they do oppose the Democrats' plan. But at least one Republican, Ohio Senator George Voinovich, has pledged his support for the proposal.
(on camera): A House Democratic aid tells CNN they are still pushing forward, but admits there's no reason for the House to vote next week if the bill can't get through the Senate.
Kate Bolduan, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The federal government is putting more taxpayer money at risk in another bailout to save insurance giant AIG. The government has revised the AIG's bailout. It is now the largest bailout of a private company in history. The decision was announced as the company reported that it lost another $24 billion.
Ines Ferre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First, the AIG bailout was $85 billion, then, it received another $60 billion. Now, the federal government has scrapped the original rescue plan for AIG and tacked on an additional $27 billion. The insurer was struggling to meet the terms of the initial bailout.
The Treasury Department argues AIG is a, quote, "systemically significant institution" too important to fail.
NEEL KASHKARI, INTERIM ASST. TREASURY SECY.: Action with AIG was a one-off event that was necessary for financial stability. FERRE: Unlike millions of American families struggling to keep their homes, AIG gets a second chance. This week's restructuring extends the loan term and reduces the interest rate on the $60 billion it owes Uncle Sam.
BILL BERGMAN, MORNINGSTAR: AIG is getting access to more money at cheaper rates and at more flexible terms. It's historic now in U.S. financial markets for one institution to have this much money available to it.
FERRE: The Treasury will buy $40 billion in preferred stock and the Fed will create a new program to buy up to $22 billion of AIG's toxic mortgage-backed securities. The Fed will also post $30 billion to guarantee AIG's troubled credit default swaps, those unregulated insurance contracts that allowed financial companies to take huge risks and let AIG's downfall.
PROF. PETER MORICI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: We have a bailout package in which the stockholders and the executives, who got us into a mess, get to benefit if things work out and the taxpayer gets all the risks if they don't.
FERRE: Morici and others asked whether the will use this money wisely.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FERRE: And remember those lavish pay packages and company retreats that caused outrage even after the federal government stepped in to rescue AIG? Well, this time, as part of the plan, the Treasury will limit golden parachutes and freeze the annual bonuses for the top 70 company executives. This comes on the heels of the disclosure that the company recently held a seminar at a Phoenix resort costing over $300,000 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ines, and the CEO of AIG, incredibly trying to justify and saying this is all just fine. Absolute...
FERRE: Well, he was saying it was for financial planners and that was mostly sponsored.
DOBBS: Mostly sponsored. At this point, it's sponsored by the federal taxpayer. And this kind of arrogance in the face of that is outrageous. Mr. Liddy, I think Congressman Elijah Cummings has it just about right. It's time for you to go.
Thank you very much, Ines Ferre.
The skyrocketing cost of the government bailout is not the only issue facing the new administration, the president-elect likely to use executive orders to quickly reverse many Bush policies on issues such as oil and gas drilling offshore, and stem cell research. Some wonder if President-elect Obama will also reverse course on some of his campaign promises.
Lisa Sylvester has our report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Congress passes the laws, but the president has the authority to define how the executive agencies interpret those laws. President Bush has been busy with his pen, signing 23 executive orders this year alone, setting new policies.
Democratic critics say many of those orders were tailored for Mr. Bush's conservative base.
FAIZ SHAKIR, CTR. FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: It has been eight years of catering to special interest, catering to big industry, at the neglect of workers, consumers, environment.
SYLVESTER: The Obama transition team has already identified Bush executive orders they plan to reverse.
JOHN PODESTA, OBAMA TRANSITION TEAM: We are looking at, again, a virtual and virtually, every agency to see where we can move forward, whether that's on energy transformation, on improving healthcare, on stem cell research.
SYLVESTER: Some of the orders expected to be reversed are Bush's limit on federal funding of embryonic stem cell research, allowing international family groups that receive U.S. aid to counsel women on the possibility of abortion, reviewing drilling in environmentally- sensitive areas, and permitting California to mandate lower carbon dioxide emissions from vehicles.
But the conservative Heritage Foundation cautions against undoing orders like the one on emissions, saying it will hurt key sectors, including the battered automobile industry.
MIKE FRANC, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It may not be the time to pose an enormously high level of regulation on the manufacturing sector that's getting ready to come to Washington for a multi-billion dollar bailout.
SYLVESTER: But there's a new administration soon to be in-charge, and they are wasting no time talking change.
REP. DIANA DEGETTE, (D) COLORADO: We are, obviously, going to have to have legislation for many of the tough issues like the economy, but for some of these issues, we can start making a difference right away.
SYLVESTER (on camera): John Podesta, the head of Obama's transition team underscored that point, saying, to look for major changes right away, that the new president intends to use his executive authority to -- in his words -- work on behalf of the common good.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Up next: President-elect Obama keeps a low profile as he considers his cabinet appointments. Will the president-elect invite Senator Clinton to join his administration? Complete coverage next.
And: Major legal developments in the case of former Border Patrol agents, Ramos and Compean, at the center of an outrageous miscarriage of justice. All of that and more -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New developments in the case of former Border Patrol agents, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. The two men serving lengthy sentences for shooting an illegal alien drug smuggler, who was then given immunity to testify against Ramos and Compean while he still was running drugs. A federal judge is refusing to overturn those convictions.
Casey Wian has our report from El Paso, Texas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former Border Patrol Agent Ignacio Ramos acknowledges supporters as he arrives for re- sentencing at an El Paso, Texas federal court. He had served nearly two years of an 11-year sentence for shooting and wounding an illegal alien drug smuggler in 2005. This summer, a federal appeals court overturned two of his six convictions, but the court upheld the most serious charge of using a gun to commit a crime, which carries a 10- year mandatory minimum term.
Attorney David Botsford asked the lower court for a reduction in the remainder of Ramos' sentence based on the fact that a week after he reported to prison, he was beaten by suspected illegal alien inmates. He's been in protective custody and solitary confinement 23 hours a day ever since.
DAVID BOTSFORD, ATTORNEY FOR IGNACIO RAMOS: Eight and a half, nine years in solitary confinement is pretty close to cruel and unusual punishment. As articulated to the judge's conditions under which he is currently forced to endure are more onerous and less beneficial than those foreign detainees being held down in Guantanamo Bay.
WIAN: Judge Kathleen Cardone refused to reduce his sentence, but did agree to write a letter to the Bureau of Prisons asking that Ramos be transferred to a minimum security prison where illegal aliens are not permitted. That decision is entirely up to the Bureau of Prisons.
Being that there's another setback, what gives you hope now?
MONICA RAMOS, WIFE OF IGNACIO RAMOS: The commutation is something that we have already filed. And we're in hopes with the change in administration, maybe Bush on his way out or Obama coming in, that we will have some sort of victory.
T.J. BONNER, PRES., NAT'L BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: He was willing to do that.
WIAN: The previous night, supporters held a candlelight vigil for Ramos and former fellow agent, Jose Compean, whose 12-year term was also upheld a day earlier by the same judge.
BONNER: The president of the United States holds it within his power, with the stroke of a pen, to commute the sentence of these two agents.
WIAN: But for now, the agents return to prison with a longer sentence in the now imprisoned illegal drug smuggler they tried to apprehend.
(on camera): LOU DOBBS TONIGHT has learned the law firm Bracewell & Giuliani, as in former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani has volunteered to work on the agents' commutation effort, as Compean's attorney says, they their way around Washington.
Casey Wian, CNN, El Paso, Texas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: President-elect Obama is facing new pressure from open border groups and corporate elites. Lobbyists are already demanding more visas for cheap foreign labor. The issue could be an early test of n whether this president-elect will be able to keep his campaign promises. The president-elect promised to fight for American workers -- workers who would lose their jobs if more cheap foreign labor is allowed into the country.
Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President-elect Barack Obama says he wants to see American workers put first.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT-ELECT: We don't need another president who fights for Washington lobbyists and Wall Street. We need a president who stands up for hard-working Americans on Main Street.
TUCKER: The H-1B visa program may provide the first test on whether he means what he says. Lobbyists for high-technologies are already pushing to expand the visa program for highly-skilled workers. Compete America, a coalition of high-tech companies and research institutions, is already reminding Obama of his campaign promise that he, quote, "supports comprehensive immigration reform that improves our visa programs, such as the H-1B program."
Or, as Obama put it in May of last year...
OBAMA: Where we can bring in more foreign-born workers with the skills our economy needs, we should.
TUCKER: Critics of the guest worker program argue there is no need to expand the H-1B visa program. They point to a series of reports over the last 12 years by the government, pointing out serious problems with the H-1B visa that Congress has yet to fix. Loopholes which allow employers to hire foreign guest workers before American workers, allow companies to pay H-1B workers less than American workers, and allow companies to replace American workers with H-1B workers. RON HIRA, AUTHOR, "OUTSOURCING AMERICA": Obama talked about tax proposals, eliminating tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. If he just fix these loopholes in the H-1B and L1 visa program, he would have a lot more impact on stemming the flow of jobs moving overseas than any of the tax proposals he's made.
TUCKER: Some 117,000 H-1B visas were issued in 2005, the last year for which there were figures that were made public.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: And that's with an alleged cap of 65,000 visas. Now, fellow Democrat Dick Durbin from Obama's home state of Illinois has joined forces with Republican Chuck Grassley from Iowa to create is proposing legislation that would dramatically reform the H-1B program. The only problem here, Lou, is a lot of critics of the program fear any reformation is going to be tied to an expansion with the H-1B visa.
DOBBS: And they have a reason to be, because just about everyone in that Senate is -- has demonstrated themselves to be committed to an expansion of the H-1B program and they listen like -- I don't know, like tutees in the House and the Senate to people like Bill Gates and others who say, we've got to have more of these, but at the same time, all of them empirical evidence suggests that's just utter nonsense.
TUCKER: Well, in this week alone, look on Friday, Sun announced it's laying off 18 percent of its workforce; 6,000 workers at Sun Microsystems out of work.
DOBBS: Bill Tucker, thank you.
Well, up next: My pal, Ted Turner, philanthropist, founder of CNN, the author of the new book, "Call Me Ted," will be my guest. We'll talk about the economy, the presidential election, and my opinion.
And, is there a way out of this financial mess? I'll be talking with the author of the important new book, "The Assent of Money: A Financial History of the World," next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our economy, of course, is the most pressing challenge facing this nation and the president-elect.
Joining me now: Harvard University professor, Niall Ferguson. He is the author of the new book, "The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World."
Good to have you with us.
NIALL FERGUSON, AUTHOR, "THE ASCENT OF MONEY": Nice to be back, Lou.
DOBBS: "The Ascent of Money." The timing could not be more impeccable, the idea that we could be in this kind of a mess. It obviously occurred to you or you wouldn't be writing this. What was the warning that you saw? FERGUSON: Two years ago, I was at a conference of investment bankers and hedge fund managers. And I suggested that they should watch out for a liquidity crisis that was coming their way and they kind of pooh-poohed and jeered me. And I went away thinking, you know, people are not ready for this and ordinary folks aren't for it. They're not ready for the shock that's going to hit them and they need to see this in historical context because it's going to be, as Mayor Daley said, as big as the Great Depression.
DOBBS: This as big as the Great Depression, whatever the dimensions of this ultimately turn out to be, there's no question that the federal response is massive. We're talking about at least, right now, $2 trillion injected through the Federal Reserve itself. Approaching $1 trillion once the $700 billion bailout is completed. What is -- what are your thoughts about this bailout and the response of the government?
FERGUSON: Well, there's a big difference between now and the Great Depression. Because back then, the Fed did next to nothing. In fact, if anything it made matters worse and the U.S. government simply wasn't in the position to borrow $2 trillion at the drop of the hat.
I call this the Great Repression. We are trying to repress a depression by pouring trillions of dollars into the financial system. And, you know, it's not yet clear that it's going to work. We are certainly stuck with a big recession. And it's still a possibility that we can end up with something worse.
DOBBS: Something worse. And that nod, as one watches these markets as volatile as they've been, the sell-off. Hank Paulson, the treasury secretary, going back to late September, as they are pushing for this bailout, saying we could have an absolute meltdown, a disaster. Obviously, the stock market has sold off, but to a five-year low already.
Despite all of this money, this injection of liquidity into the economy, and then we have people talking about the Obama administration to be, talking about a large stimulus package in addition. I mean...
FERGUSON: There are two big worries here. One is that you can pour money into banks that are near-dead, but you can't force them to lend it out and to create new credit. It's a little bit like Japan in the 1990s. The banks are on life support, but they are not actually generating any new loans. They are just trying to stay alive.
The other big worry is the bond market. How much can the international bond market absorb of new 10-year treasuries? If it's $2 trillion, the deficit could be as big as that next year. At some point, I think foreign investors, including the Chinese are going to say, enough already. And then it could get very ugly in the bond market.
DOBBS: How ugly?
FERGUSON: Well, ugly enough to drive yields up. And if yields go up, the cost of government borrowing goes up, and the thing begins to spiral out of control. Then you have to worry about the dollar. That's been propped up by Asian central banks, has been for years now. It's rallied recently. But these rallies are illusory. There are bumps on the way down.
And I think, none of your viewers should be in any doubt about just how serious this is. That's why you need the historical perspective because this is beyond our memories, really. We have to go back to the '30s to encounter something quite this scary.
DOBBS: How long this economic crisis -- we won't characterize this as either a depression or a recession -- how long the crisis before we begin to see growth return, some vigor in this economy?
FERGUSON: Well, we're used to recessions lasting maybe a quarter or two quarters, but this is going to be something that lasts years. Japan had a lost decade if you remember in the 1990s. There was next to no growth in that period.
And the situation is similar. It begins with the real estate crash, it ends with the banks in desperate difficulty. Huge government bailouts, zero interest rates. The Japanese tried all of this in 1990s and didn't get much of a response. So, this is for the long haul.
And I think we have to hope that we get away with just low growth rather than the catastrophe of the depression. That's what we're going to try and avoid. But I must say, I get more and more pessimistic particularly about the international coordination. I mean, I don't expect much of this G-20 meeting that's coming up, except talk, that it was that absence of international coordination that caused a lot of the trouble in the '30s.
DOBBS: All right. Niall Ferguson, thank you very much.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
DOBBS: The book is "The Ascent of Money." I recommend it to you highly.
Coming up: Rising speculation about a possible role for Senator Clinton in the new Obama administration. We'll have that. I'll be talking with three top political analysts, next.
Also, President to elect Obama may postpone plans to reform our failing public education system.
And, my pal, CNN founder and philanthropist, Ted Turner, joins me for a very candid interview about his life and his new book, "Call Me Ted." Well, don't call me Ted, call him Ted.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, Ted Turner is an American success story, an entrepreneur who stepped away from business and become one of the world's leading philanthropists. The television pioneer and founder of CNN joins me now. He's got a brand new book out called. It's called "Call Me Ted." It's just been published.
And, Ted and I were just kind of reminiscing because I was one of those folks fortunate to be on the first list of employees when we started CNN. It's hard to believe it's been 28 years.
TED TURNER, CNN FOUNDER: Sure is.
DOBBS: Well, you've made a couple of dollars over that period of time.
TURNER: And lost a lot more. And given away a lot more.
DOBBS: Well, you've done all of the above. You've lived life about as large as it could be lived, I believe. And you have lived a pretty darn well. And yet there are a lot of folks who sit there and they kind of criticize you and I keep thinking back, because you criticized me recently -
TED TURNER, AUTHOR: I didn't.
DOBBS: That's what I was told. I keep thinking back to one of your expressions. You may not remember this, but you once told us you were getting criticized and you said, you know, every dog has its fleas. And you know, I think that's a pretty good way to look at that.
TURNER: Never mind that's what he is. A few fleas are good for a dog because they remind him exactly what he is. My father taught me that.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And you know what? I would say you prevailed, you prevailed over the management that ousted you from Time Warner, you prevailed in cable as the pioneer who changed the direction. Is there anything that you want to do that you haven't done?
TURNER: I wanted to win the NBA championship, but I don't have a basketball team anymore, so I guess that won't ever happen.
DOBBS: That's kind of a requisite for that.
TURNER: But you know, I had to think about it. Oh yes, I would like to see nuclear disarmament and a new energy regime of clean, renewable locally produced energy. I'm subscribing to the Pickens' plan.
DOBBS: Right.
TURNER: I'm a fan of Boone Pickens, too. Don't you like his program?
DOBBS: Absolutely. I think it's a brilliant plan.
TURNER: You don't think we ought to bail out General Motors, do you?
DOBBS: Do I think we should? Absolutely
TURNER: You think we should. DOBBS: Absolutely.
TURNER: How much do we give them?
DOBBS: You know -
TURNER: $30 million now and $30 million every month from now on.
DOBBS: We got $25 million on the table but before we step off the issue -
TURNER: OK.
DOBBS: No, no, you are doing good, --
TURNER: It's your show, not mine.
DOBBS: You're doing good but you made it possible, Ted, so we are going to defer. Why would you not want to bail out the industry? National security has directly and indirectly employment impact -
TURNER: They have been stupid. If I knew 10 years ago that they were going to go broke building those big cars. They needed to read the news - they pay to watch CNN, about what is happening to oil supplies, they would have realized they needed to start building small cars.
DOBBS: Ted, I'm not going to argue they haven't made stupid mistakes, but you know what -
TURNER: And they are so far in the hole. You know AIG, didn't we just give them another $40 million. And it has only been 60 days since we last gave them the last $100 billion, right?
DOBBS: You know those burn rates get out of control.
TURNER: That's exactly right. The auto industry is a big deep hole. If we are going to spend some money, let's put up windmills and solar panels with that money and rebuild our electricity grid and prepare for the future instead of pouring money down into a rat hole that's associated with the past.
DOBBS: All right. What about -
TURNER: Big cars are a thing of the past. Gone.
DOBBS: Well I mean, come on, Detroit, I'm not going to sit here and defend Detroit for a bunch of mistakes, but the fact is they are coming out with all sorts of cars that are going to be electric or hybrid.
TURNER: Why didn't they do it 20 years ago?
DOBBS: Well, the same reason -
TURNER: They say that they don't have a legitimate hybrid yet and they don't have an electric car that works either. DOBBS: The problem with talking to me, Ted, is I go back, too. And I remember when you made the --
TURNER: And I don't want to see the auto industry. I'm just mad as hell, I can remember the Peter Finch character in network that said throw the windows open and I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to underwrite losing companies anymore. At CNN we struggled, --
DOBBS: Absolutely.
TURNER: We sweated every payroll for 20 years but we never went to the government to ask for any money.
DOBBS: But you had to get some help from your partners.
TURNER: I know, but our partners -
DOBBS: That's a part you can't deny.
TURNER: I know but our partners -- it wasn't a bailout, it was an investment from the free enterprise system. It is a capitalist system not a socialistic -
DOBBS: I hear you. Well if you want to ask, do I think we should have started down this road, that's another question. But since we are and Hank Paulson decides -
TURNER: Well how far do we go?
DOBBS: Well, you tell me.
TURNER: No, you tell me. You are the big expert.
DOBBS: Well, I'm -
TURNER: You are the man that knows everything and has an opinion about everything.
DOBBS: You are the fellow with the mouth of the south. Captain Outrageous -
TURNER: That was a long time ago.
DOBBS: You are laying out a program for missile deployment, for crying out loud. What made you write this book?
TURNER: I just figured there was an interesting story to tell and that people would get some enjoyment and maybe learn something from it.
DOBBS: Well I think -
TURNER: Like integrity, for instance. That's something has been sadly lacking in a lot of our business dealings here in this country. But one thing, I may have lost billions, but I never did anything that you know was dishonest or immoral. DOBBS: And as somebody who, and a lot of folks don't know this, but I sat on the executive committee for about, you know, almost 15 years.
TURNER: That's right.
DOBBS: And I can tell you for a fact that is true. And the other part of it is, you lost $9 billion and you didn't whine about it.
TURNER: No.
DOBBS: That's pretty commendable.
TURNER: I was going to give it away anyway.
DOBBS: Well, that's true, too. And you are still giving it away and you are still - this Montana grill, Ted's Montana grill, are you making money there?
TURNER: Not making money but we were right at break even before the economy turned south. Really, if we are going to bail out industries, we need to bailout the restaurant industry, too, because everybody is suffering in the restaurant industry, too. The sales are down because people are staying home.
DOBBS: And what about folks with - four million folks facing the prospects of foreclosure? That's what I want to bailout. That's what I recommended last year.
TURNER: Well, let's bail them out rather than General Motors. I would rather do that. Bailout the middle class.
DOBBS: We got your vote. Now tell me about this stuff that you didn't like. I heard from friends of our friends that you don't like the fact that I give opinions.
TURNER: So mean and nasty to the illegal immigrants.
DOBBS: I'm mean and nasty, what have I ever said mean and nasty about the illegal immigrants?
TURNER: It's just the way you look. You look angry. I can look that way but with me, it is just a joke, with you, it looks real.
DOBBS: Ted, you can fool some of the folks, but you can't fool me. When you look that way you mean business.
TURNER: I mean business?
DOBBS: Absolutely.
TURNER: I'm still your friend, Lou.
DOBBS: I know you are.
TURNER: We go back.
DOBBS: You say mean things.
TURNER: I didn't say anything mean. I said you didn't have a lot of humor in your program. And I was on the Letterman show -
DOBBS: Let's show that.
TURNER: OK. Let's see and see what the viewers think. Somebody give me some messages on the internet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: I think you laugh too much on this show.
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST: Well, I'm always -
TURNER: I'm only kidding. You don't laugh enough.
LETTERMAN: OK.
TURNER: If there's not laughs on CNN, I can tell you. Do you ever watch "Lou Dobbs"?
LETTERMAN: Yes.
TURNER: It is not funny, is it?
LETTERMAN: Well, not now, no.
TURNER: That's one thing you can be sure of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: All right.
TURNER: You can't take that as an insult.
DOBBS: All right. If I can't, then I won't, if you are going to be like that.
TURNER: That's right.
DOBBS: But the fact of the matter is when you said that I'm too serious about illegal aliens or whatever --
TURNER: You got to go somewhere.
DOBBS: Well -
TURNER: That's where you want them to go.
DOBBS: You tell me.
TURNER: It is so much easier to go from the United States to Mexico to - it's pretty hard for them to get to China. They don't have money for a ticket.
DOBBS: What about the illegal aliens from China?
TURNER: We got some of them, too?
DOBBS: Oh, yes, sir.
TURNER: How about from Canada? That's what worries me. They got a 3,000-mile border up there. Why don't we build a wall up there, too? I don't like walls. You know what I remember we had a president who we all admired who said, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Now we're building a wall against Mexico and the Israelis are building one against the Palestinians. And I have seen it, too, and I don't like it. I think we need a world without walls for people to go back and forth as they want to. I don't believe they should stay here illegally, but we are making it hard for Mexican tourists to come here to visit Americans who want to spend their good hard-earned pesos here to help our economy.
DOBBS: So you don't believe illegal aliens should stay here either then.
TURNER: I don't think. We should have some kind of other system where they are not illegal if they are going to stay here.
DOBBS: Well, I am going to take it that as you and I are in agreement on that.
TURNER: Well, we are. Basically, we agree about most things.
DOBBS: Well, we do.
TURNER: We have worked together for 26 years. If we really disagreed, one of us would have quit.
DOBBS: Well, opps.
TURNER: And I can tell you who it would have been for the first 20. It would have been me.
DOBBS: Well it isn't exactly either one of us.
TURNER: I couldn't figure out who got me and now I know. It's you.
DOBBS: It is me. I got you. No, I know who got you and his name was Gerri Levine.
TURNER: I guess but I don't know why.
DOBBS: Well, I don't either because I never knew him.
TURNER: He's got a chapter in the book, too.
DOBBS: I bet that ought to be a beauty.
TURNER: I think you got one, too.
DOBBS: Absolutely. I would - TURNER: You are in there uncensored.
DOBBS: That's the way it ought to be, especially on this broadcast. Ted Turner, I wish we had time to talk about a whole bunch of other stuff.
TURNER: Well, let's do it sometime.
DOBBS: How about - you're trying to move a book -
TURNER: And also I'm trying to get rid of nuclear weapons and get the atmosphere straightened out.
DOBBS: Can I say -
TURNER: And climate change.
DOBBS: By the way, Ted isn't - just for those of you who don't know, when Ted talks about nuclear disarmament, nonproliferation, starts talking taking borders, eliminating borders and walls, it isn't anything new. Because in the early '80s, he came up with something called the goodwill games believe it or not, right after the Soviet Union had boycotted the Olympics and created the -
TURNER: The U.S. boycotted first, if you recall. Carter -
DOBBS: That's right.
TURNER: We boycotted the Moscow Olympics and then they boycotted the next time at the Los Angeles Olympics.
DOBBS: And as a result, the Soviet Union collapsed and the result of the good will games. We want to rewrite history that way, can I do that?
TURNER: I don't think so, but I do think you can talk about the cold war.
DOBBS: I think - I tell you one thing -
TURNER: You were there.
DOBBS: I was there and I went to the games. And further more, I was privileged to do so. And I'm privileged having you here tonight. It's good to see you, partner.
TURNER: Good to see you, Lou. Give Debi my love.
DOBBS: I'll do it and I'll keep - by the way, I'm going to keep giving that independent opinion, is that all right?
TURNER: Yes, that's OK.
DOBBS: All right. Ted, thanks.
The book is "Call me Ted." It's a great one. Up next, will President-elect Obama be able to fix our failing public schools during this economic crisis. We'll have that report and three top political analysts also join us here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We devoted extensive resources, time and energy to reporting this country's educational system and its failure to prepare a generation of students to live in our society. On campaign trail, President-elect Obama has pledged to fix our troubled public schools, but with the struggling economy, education reform no longer seems our top priority. Kitty Pilgrim has our story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of the big decisions for the Obama family is where to send their daughters to school in Washington. Barack Obama claims to understand the challenges in education. His own sister is a teacher. He is determined to be different on the issue of education.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: The urgency of upgrading public education from the 21st century has been talked to death in Washington, but not much has gotten done. And that failure to act has put our nation in jeopardy. I believe the day of reckoning is here.
PILGRIM: But in these troubled times, Obama ranks education well down the list of priorities after the economy, energy, health care and tax reform.
OBAMA: Priority number five I think would be making sure that we have an education system that works for all children.
PILGRIM: The economy is already taking a toll on education budgets. School tax revenues based on property values have fallen during the real estate crisis. 16 states have already cut K-12 education and other childhood education programs. President-elect Obama has called for federal funding for early childhood education programs, doubling funding for federal charter schools and expanding after school programs, but education policy experts say more federal programs despite good intentions are not the answer.
DAN LIPS, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The federal government is ill equipped to deal with the challenges that we face in our schools. Do we want decisions made here in Washington, D.C. by the distant bureaucracy, or should these decisions be made closer to schools at the state and local level.
PILGRIM: One example is the no child left behind program. Federal funding for the program has increased by 50 percent in the last eight years but there has been no real improvement in education test scores.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Though President-elect Obama said he would like to reform the no child left behind program, but he doesn't plan to do away with the law and he has offered only a few details on what he would like to change. The reality is in the current economy he may be reluctant to change education policy until well into his administration. Lou.
DOBBS: And this economy well, may well dictate a number of other policies to be deferred as well. Thank you very much, Kitty. Kitty Pilgrim.
Up next, President Bush says he strongly supports free markets unless there's a problem with the market, like a meltdown. We'll be figuring out exactly what the president means and the Obama transition team full of former Clinton officials. Will the new Obama administration really bring change? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts in the whole country, all CNN contributors. Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf. Hank, good to have you here. Errol Louis, columnist "New York Daily News," host of the "Morning Show" on WWRL in New York. And in our D.C. studios is syndicated columnist Diana West. Good to have you all here.
Errol, let me start with you, President Bush this week declared that he is a market oriented guy, except in the face of a global market meltdown. I think he has it just about right?
ERROL LOUIS, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": A viability principals, except when the circumstances cause you to throw away those principles. You know it had to be tough for him I think to try and get on the world stage one last time and try and talk with authority in the midst of an economic calamity that was arguably partly his doing. And with 24 percent approval ratings. I mean other heads of state know how to read polls you know. And they look at him and say, this is not necessarily this particularly, necessarily somebody we need to take too seriously right now.
DOBBS: And, Diana, the idea that he sends a free market system isn't the problem we shouldn't be reinventing it, yet it's his administration that spearheaded a drive to put $5 trillion of government money into the system. He has, by so doing, changed the system likely forever.
DIANA WEST, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean, this would have been a terrific speech to hear maybe a couple OF months ago in the face of bailout clamoring. I don't know it could be facing the world stage where the Europeans and so on who have been on you know the social democracies, it may have been his last hoorah as a cowboy capitalist. I don't know. It was almost an elegy in some ways but it sounded good, but it doesn't bear any relation to our reality.
DOBBS: Well, reality, Hank Sheinkopf, it was over this week when the Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson came out and said oh yes, for six weeks we've been pursuing that troubled asset recovery program. You know, the one where we buy toxic assets and we've been pursuing that troubled asset recovery program. You know the one where we buy toxic assets and I told you to the U.S. Congress you got to give $700 billion right now or the world will just collapse. He said well never mind. That wasn't really the idea, we'll try something different. Has this Treasury Secretary - this administration just lost all credibility now.
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: There is no question that no one is paying attention to George Bush and very soon no one will be paying attention to anything Paulson does because they don't have a real game plan. They don't know where this is going. They jumped too quickly on the front. They came up with a plan that isn't working and nobody knows where it will end.
DOBBS: And you know, and I think about well Barack Obama talking about deliberate haste. And that sounded good. But when we look back over this administration, the times in which they said it has to be urgently taken care of and we got to move right now. Immediacy is what this is about whether it be the Iraq war, whether it be the bailout. Both instances it turns out they either had bad intelligence or acting with no intelligence. This has to be a lesson for the Obama administration, do you think?
LOUIS: Oh sure, sure. Don't forget the third stool of that when the one time when urgent action was needed after the destruction of New Orleans. They couldn't get out of their own way. So I mean, you know getting the timing right which is something at least in the campaign mode, Obama has been pretty good at. It's something that they are very thoughtful about. You know for instance he resigned his Senate seat. He's making clear he doesn't want to be part of whatever rough movement or last minute legislative foolishness goes on in Congress.
DOBBS: How many senators do you think are thinking - I wish I could resign right now?
LOUIS: Yes, exactly and just put it off for another six weeks and start over again which is what he is choosing to do.
DOBBS: Diana, your thoughts - this is an absolute mess. Obviously this economic crisis is getting worse and not better. Is there any appetite you suppose in Washington, D.C. at all to say stop. Enough. The bailouts have to end and we have to draw a line here. This week we heard that the republicans will not go along with a bailout of Detroit. Your thoughts?
WEST: Well I wish that there were sentiments to stop. If we remember back to a week or so ago, we have massive majorities in the House and Senate for the democrats who are very gung ho to continue the bailout. And you know, of course President-elect Obama was also one who signed on to it. So I don't sense any clear headed thinking except for maybe on this panel in terms of wanting to call a pause to this tremendous waste of billions.
DOBBS: Right. Hank, the appetite if you will for prudence and responsibility and an end to these bailouts are manifesting itself. Because Christopher Dodd said that he couldn't find a republican vote for the bailout in Detroit. Do you think the result will be as apparently the democratic leadership in Congress now will wait through until the Obama administration is in place? Do you think that there is a likelihood that we will not see a bail out at all either then or now?
WEST: It's impossible to believe for a moment that the Obama administration, thinking politically or from a policy perspective won't do something to aid Detroit. Because when you talk about Detroit, you are not talking about the city of Detroit. You are talking about a region and an economy the region is depending upon the auto industry. Something has to give. I think they will put it off and come up with some kind of plan, but I don't think it's going to be with the kind of richness that some would like frankly.
DOBBS: All right. We will be back with our panel in just one moment. Stay with us. We're going to assess the early days if you will of the Obama administration. And you know that change you can believe in? Well, just ask the Clintons how much change there is likely to be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back now with Hank Sheinkopf, Errol Louis and Diana West. Diana, about that change we can believe in as the Obama campaign hawked itself, it looks like it's going to involve a lot of Clinton appointees.
WEST: Well indeed I mean we saw that from the very first days, bringing back Rahm Emanuel as chief of staff and John Podesta overseeing the transition and now of course we had the big name of Senator Clinton as the possible secretary of state along with some other possibilities. I mean, it's quite funny, I guess. In a way to look at it this way, we are not seeing change, we are seeing Clinton two or three.
DOBBS: Hank, what do you think?
SHEINKOPF: I think we're going to see some change. I think that there are professionals in government service and others who have spent their lives doing portions, a significant portions of knowledge that cannot be replicated. So getting them into government under the Obama administration makes some sense. This is not Clinton again. That's a way to kind of create an argument that should not and does not exist.
DOBBS: All right.
LOUIS: Yes but it is a - I think we are going to see some new faces. I mean, believe me, there will be some folks out of Chicago and that operation that built up the Obama machine.
DOBBS: Folks out of Chicago.
LOUIS: I know some of them and I heard of many others. I mean somebody like Valerie Jarrett who is a major power player in the national scene who probably most people had never heard of before a few weeks ago and has been guiding his career for years. I mean there is a pretty deep bench there, I think. I think though also we have to be clear that you know this government, this plum book which is 8,000 appointments. You know, the government is really run by 600 or so really top officials and then several thousand others including the various commissions who were out there. So we have a little time. I mean the Clinton familiar names are going to get a little bit extra attention, but there will be a lot of new folks.
DOBBS: You can argue they should since it's the most recent democratic administration and these people have demonstrated experience and capability. So we're going to hear a lot in the press about this. You know the Clintons are taking over all of the nonsense.
But let's talk about one thing that is nonsense it seems to me and that is that seven-page personnel questionnaire. Do you want to be on the administration, Errol? I mean that's something did you ever own a gun, did you ever hurt anybody?
LOUIS: What's the substance of all these speeches you have given over the last 10 years? Your e-mail? The whole thing.
DOBBS: I mean that's insane. It's insane.
LOUIS: The whole thing. I mean absolutely. I wonder in fact if Barack Obama can survive that. I mean it's supposed to include any e-mails or any relationships that might be embarrassing to Barack Obama. I started thinking of Rezko. I started thinking of Ayers you know and what people from Trinity United Church are they supposed to write that down. I mean that's potentially embarrassing.
DOBBS: And drug use. Senator Obama's acknowledged that he has used drugs and cocaine and marijuana.
LOUIS: Pretty high standards.
SHEINKOPF: Too much information available for too many eyes to pry. Anybody who is serious won't fill out that questionnaire unless they got other plans in life.
DOBBS: The great thing is that the questionnaire you have to fill out to get a part of that $700 billion federal bailout, that's two pages.
(LAUGHTER)
WEST: Maybe they should swap.
DOBBS: You got it. Thank you very much, Diana West. Errol Louis, thank you very much. Hank Sheinkopf, thank you. And thank you for being with us. Join us here tomorrow and please join me on the radio, Monday through Friday for the "Lou Dobbs Show." Go to loudobbsradio.com to get the local listings in your area.
For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
