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CNN Larry King Live
Remembering Katharine Graham; Police Continue Search for Chandra Levy
Aired July 17, 2001 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, what's going on inside Gary Condit's head? TV cameras get close up as he returns to Capitol Hill. The search for Chandra Levy continues after 78 days. Why so little info?
Here to trade blunt opinions about this case, best-selling author, former federal prosecutor Barbara Olson. In Los Angeles, defense attorney Mark Geragos. In New York, constitutional lawyer and best-selling author Ann Coulter. With her, former prosecutor Nancy Grace, now of Court TV. And back in D.C., former independent counsel and former federal prosecutor Michael Zeldin.
But first, media icon Kay Graham is dead at age 84. Joining us with personal memories of a truly remarkable lady, in New York, Barbara Walters of ABC News. Mike Wallace of CBS News is on Martha's Vineyard, and with him is longtime "Washington Post" columnist Art Buchwald. We'll also be hearing from former first lady Nancy Reagan and her majesty Queen Noor of Jordan -- all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
She was a great pioneer, was the late Kay Graham. She was a dear friend, appeared on this program many times, and we have three great friends of hers to talk about it, and two will check in by phone.
We start with Barbara Walters in New York, who must have been the last person with her before she went to Idaho. Was she -- she was at your home Sunday, Barbara?
BARBARA WALTERS, ABC NEWS: She was at my home this past Sunday with her daughter, Lally, the only daughter she -- Mrs. Graham had three sons and Lally, and her granddaughter Katharine, her namesake, whom everybody feels one day will be the heir-apparent to the paper. It had been a very -- there we are. It had been a very busy and happy weekend.
This takes place every year. Lally gives a party -- gave a party celebrating both of their birthdays, and everybody toasts Kay, and it was a wonderful, happy weekend. I think she was exhausted, but it was a great weekend.
Then she went on to this conference, Larry, given by Allen & Company, again with friends like Barry Diller and Warren Buffett, surrounded by people who respected her with -- Bill Gates was there -- with wonderful ideas and conversations. When she fell and died -- she never regained consciousness. And look, it's still too young, even at 84. But it was a -- if she had to go, it was a way when she had been with people she loved and respected, and was just having a wonderful time.
KING: She sure looked happy in those pictures. They're probably the last pictures of her.
WALTERS: I don't know. There may have been some taken at Allen & Company. But I want to just talk a little bit about the human side of Katharine Graham, because we're all going to hear what a superb publisher she was and how courageous she was, but she is an inspiration. And that's sort of a corny thing to say, and you say it about many people. But she was, especially to women.
This was a woman whose father had bought the newspaper, "The Washington Post," when it was kind of a nothing paper. She was born to wealth. She married an enormously charismatic man named Phil Graham, adored him, had four children, and stayed in the shadows. I mean, she wasn't supposed to do anything except be a wife and mother: very shy, very insecure.
He had an illness, manic depression, at a time when there was no treatment. And even at one point in his madness, he left her and came back. And then, horribly, he shot himself. He committed suicide. And everybody expected her to retire, to sell the paper, to stay in the background, and she didn't.
With this terrible shyness -- she told me once, Larry, that she had to rehearse for days just to say "Merry Christmas." And look what she accomplished.
(CROSSTALK)
She never appreciated herself, I don't think, and never got over that insecurity. But what a triumph.
KING: Yeah. What a -- what a dame she was. She was some lady. We'll come back to Barbara.
Mike Wallace is on Martha's Vineyard, where -- are you at a party, Mike? What is that -- what's going on?
MIKE WALLACE, CBS "60 MINUTES": This is a party at the beginning of the season here in Martha's Vineyard, and ordinarily Kay would be here. She -- most of the time she would come on the 1st of August. Here we are in the middle of July, and she was supposed to be here either yesterday or today, Arty. Arty Buchwald sitting here.
And over there, you may hear in the background all her pals who once a year would, at the beginning of the season, just sit down and have a good time.
She was a neighbor. She was a dear friend. She was an earthier woman than -- in her language than some people understood about her. But she was -- she was a loyal, good friend. And everybody, everybody played at her tennis court, everybody swam in her pool. She was a good friend. Arty, however, Arty over here, he was there at the beginning.
KING: Yeah, was he.
ART BUCHWALD, AUTHOR & COLUMNIST: Well, I don't know what the beginning is. But the island was nourishment for Kay. She came every August. She had been here about 20 years, and she just loved it. And we got to know her up here rather than in the city where you don't know people as well.
But up here, she let her hair down, and we felt very much apart -- she was part of our gang. And we have an auction here for the community services, and Kay -- you have to do something. You can't sell it. It's something that you give yourself of. And Kay gave an introduction to her place at "The Washington Post," got to interview her. And after you got to interview her, you got a tour. And I was the auctioneer, and I was always afraid I wouldn't get enough money for her.
So, you know, I got 500, a thousand. So I begged people, saying that if you don't give me enough money for Kay, I'll be fired.
(LAUGHTER)
WALLACE: The fact is that Kay used to get -- she -- Kay used to get more money than almost anybody except Carly Simon.
BUCHWALD: Yeah. She was -- I mean, we can't deny that she is the most unique person in our -- our country.
KING: Yeah. And how -- how -- how do you explain, Mike and then Barbara and then Art, how do you explain, Mike, this shy woman, certainly in the background behind Phil Graham, expected to sell the company when he died, how do you explain, Mike, her sound sudden transformation?
WALLACE: I think that it was a question of honor, from what I understand. Her family had the newspaper. She was going to honor the memory of her late husband. She was going to take over, to the surprise of everybody. And little by little -- Warren Buffett was a very close friend of hers, and he advised her about business. Various other people were close friends of hers, who tutored her and brought her along. But that's all business.
Here on the island, she was adorable. And to be -- to have the opportunity to come to Kay Graham's dinner table occasionally, for the people that she had there...
KING: Oh, yeah.
BUCHWALD: I -- I -- she had a great sense of humor, and on the island, (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And we had a hay ride, and the -- the hay wagon was in the middle of a road, so no one could come by. And Henry Kissinger was in his chauffeured limousine, and he couldn't get back to -- the hay. So -- so...
WALLACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Kay and Henry Kissinger on a hay ride together?
BUCHWALD: No. Kay...
KING: Let me get a break, Art. Hold it. Let me get a break, and we'll pick up the story of what happened. Hold it. We'll be right back with Art Buchwald and then Barbara Walters and Mike Wallace. Katherine Graham's autobiography, "Personal History," was a best-seller, earned a Pulitzer Prize. When she sat down with me in 1997, I asked her how it was to write about the tough moments, like, as Barbara mentioned, her husband's suicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: ... in reliving it pain would occur.
KATHARINE GRAHAM, AUTHOR, "PERSONAL HISTORY": Well, I knew that there were tough sides to the story, as there are in anybody's story. And certainly there were of mine. But overall, I considered that I had been privileged, that I had had a wonderful life of variety and -- and wonderful people in it. And I was loved and loved, and you know, I had a great time except, you know, I mean, everybody has ups and downs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: The ones I knew and related to were President Kennedy, President Johnson and the Reagans, because I knew them in California when they were governors, and....
KING: And the Reagans were unexpected in that the editorial page was so often critical...
GRAHAM: Yes.
KING: But the publisher was a friend.
GRAHAM: Yes.
KING: Was that difficult? Were there days the Reagans may have been over for dinner and that day they had been lambasted?
GRAHAM: Oh, listen, we didn't -- they didn't come over for dinner, just all like that, we knew them...
KING: You knew them. He wasn't the kind who would bring that up?
GRAHAM: No, he wasn't. He was charming, he told stories. He generally didn't discuss issues at dinners.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Before we get back to Art and Mike and Barbara in New York, with us on the phone is former first lady Nancy Reagan.
Nancy, your friendship with Katherine Graham -- I had asked her about it -- was it surprising to you that this newspaper which was generally in opposition to your husband, you and her hit it off so well?
NANCY REAGAN, FORMER FIRST LADY: No, it wasn't a surprise, Larry. We first met when Ronnie was governor, as I think she said, oddly enough in Sun Valley where all this took place today. It was at a governor's conference.
And we had a mutual friend who would come to me and say, you really should know Kay Graham, you would like her. And he would go to her and say, you should know Nancy Reagan, you would like her. So I walked in to this place in Sun Valley and Kay was standing there in front of the fireplace, and I went over to her, and we both felt as if we had known one another forever.
And when we went to Washington, nobody would believe that Kay Graham and I would be close friends. You know, but when we got to Washington, we would have private lunches usually at her house, never told anybody. A deep dark secret, nobody would understand, we felt. Then later on, we kind of enlarged it and we had Meg Greenfield come, then it was the three of us, and...
KING: Wow.
REAGAN: It was -- they were wonderful, wonderful, times.
KING: Obviously, Barbara -- Barbara is with us, too, Barbara Walters and Mike Wallace and Art Buchwald. Obviously, Barbara that had to be politics aside; right?
WALTERS: Oh, yes.
REAGAN: Oh, yes. Are you asking me?
KING: Barbara Walters, I mean to comment on that, wouldn't it surprise you to learn that Meg Greenfield and Kay and Nancy Reagan are having lunch on a regular basis?
WALTERS: Well, I knew that they had -- I mean this was something that was not widely known -- but I did know that they did, but, Kay, Katherine Graham liked women and Nancy Reagan is an awfully likable woman, as we all know. And Meg Greenfield was one of her -- one of the most brilliant writers, and the closest friend of Kay and died a year or so ago.
But if we have a moment -- or maybe you can come back after you have talked to Nancy -- in case there are young people watching, I would like them to know what Kay Graham's legacy was and why people admire her, it wasn't just she had this paper and she knew a lot of people -- by the way, she gave the only party this year after George W. Bush was elected, she gave a private party for him.
So I think there wasn't a president that she didn't entertain, although she had said Lyndon Johnson ignored her and John Kennedy's eyes glazed over when he met her, that was before she became the Kay Graham we all know.
KING: We'll get that legacy factor in a moment. Mike, you know Nancy very well. Were you surprised that that relationship between Nancy and Kay?
WALLACE: Not the least bit, not the least bit. Meg Greenfield and Nancy and Kay all -- Meg wasn't that much a friend of mine but -- there was obviously a community in interest, they are just interesting people who wanted to talk to each other, and they were indeed good friends, I know.
One -- one of the most interesting things, was Kay's salon in Washington, was the most important place to be invited to, so everybody was invited there, but at the same time they came and showed up for dinner, "The Washington Post" was being beating the hell out of them.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: And the amazing thing, Nancy, that didn't bother you?
REAGAN: No. Not at all. You know, seeing Mike up there at Martha's Vineyard, Kay asked me to come up for a weekend at Martha's Vineyard, when Ronnie was president. And I went.
And the first night -- Mike he will remember -- the first night, we spent in the kitchen, I think Mike, talking -- Mike, and I, and Meg and we were telling -- Mike knew my mother for years. And we were telling stories about my mother. And we were laughing, each story was funnier than the other, and we had a wonderful, wonderful time.
KING: Nancy, thanks for joining us on this. By the way, how is Maureen holding up?
REAGAN: She is holding up. Terrible thing.
KING: Yeah, boy what a horrible thing. Are her spirits high?
REAGAN: Yes, she is, you know, a very strong lady. And we will hope that everything is all right.
KING: Give her our best.
REAGAN: I will.
KING: Thank you, Nancy.
REAGAN: Thanks.
KING: Thank you.
We'll be back with Barbara Walters, Mike Wallace, Art Buchwald, Queen Noor will check in, we will talk with each of them to give their thoughts on her legacy after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Joining us on the phone for some thoughts, is Queen Noor, her Majesty Queen Noor of Jordan, a good friend of Katharine Graham. What -- how did you two know each other?
QUEEN NOOR OF JORDAN, GRAHAM FRIEND: Well, Larry, we first came to know each other in the course of my marriage, though she was an old family friend of my parents beginning from the Kennedy era. And she hosted some dinners for King Hussein and myself and was always a gracious, kind, and very thoughtful hostess. She brought people together, and she was always searching for greater understanding about all issues, the Middle East included.
But since my husband's death she became a closer personal friend. And one of our last moments together was a lunch the two of us had in her house, in which I presented her a book that we had just finished of photographs of the life and work of my husband. She wanted to go through every single photograph of this book of his 64 years of life, and 47 years of reign, because she was interested in every single piece of information. But -- that she hadn't had before.
KING: She was a special lady. We have time limitations; I have a problem.
Queen Noor, I know she will long be in your memory.
QUEEN NOOR: Well, I think I know I already miss her terribly, but her family and her friends of so many years. My heart goes out to them, because she was a truly unique, inspiring...
KING: Boy, she was.
QUEEN NOOR: ... an example of a woman living her life to the full.
KING: Thank you, Queen Noor.
Art Buchwald, we never got to finish this story. Did Kissinger's car get around the hay wagon?
BUCHWALD: No, the hay wagon. The hay wagon was in the middle of a road leading to Kay's house, and Henry Kissinger was in his car behind it, he couldn't pass the hay wagon. He didn't know whose hay wagon it was. So, we were all on it, and when he got to the -- Kay's house, he screamed like bloody murder, and Kay laughed as hard as she could laugh.
KING: Mike, before we have Barbara close this, what is her legacy going to be in your view?
WALLACE: She played it straight. She was loyal, honorable. Her legacy is something that all publishers should understand. You've got to -- you've got to pay attention to the bottom line, you've got to pay attention to the lawyers, you've got to pay attention to the business people, but basically, it's your newspaper or it's your broadcast that is important. And Kay simply was loyal to her -- to the people who worked for her as reporters and editors. And she was fearless about that.
KING: Well said. And Barbara, you close it out for us, her legacy in your opinion?
WALTERS: Well, first of all, the legacy of the family goes on, because her son Donald is now the publisher of the paper, her daughter, Lally Weymouth, writes for "Newsweek" and "The Washington Post."
But you know, I think she will go down in history because of the tremendous courage. It took her years to feel her own power, but there was a point when the Pentagon Papers had to be published, and the paper was not allowed to do that, and she went to court. And they were published, and then beyond that, during Watergate, when her two reporters, Woodward and Bernstein, and Richard Nixon was trying to put her out of business, she stood by her reporters with her wonderful editor Ben Bradlee -- who must be mentioned tonight -- and it did bring about the downfall of Richard Nixon.
She was a very courageous, gutsy woman. She never really lost her femininity, and she was an inspiration, especially, especially, to women. God bless her and her family.
KING: Well said. Barbara Walters, Mike Wallace, Art Buchwald, former first lady Nancy Reagan and Her Majesty Queen Noor of Jordan. When we come back, the saga of Gary Condit continues. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Let's meet our panel, they will be with us the rest of the way to discuss the missing case, the missing persons case of Chandra Levy. They are in Washington: Barbara Olson, the former federal prosecutor, author of "Hell to Pay"; here in Los Angeles, famed defense attorney Mark Geragos; in New York, Ann Coulter, the constitutional lawyer, syndicated columnist and legal reporter for "Human Events," also the best-selling author of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors"; in New York is Nancy Grace, as well the former prosecutor and host of "Trial Heat" on Court TV; and in Washington, Michael Zeldin, the former independent counsel, former federal prosecutor.
This is a short segment, and then we have the whole remainder of the hour with our guests, so we will run down this quickly. Barbara, does this get curiouser and curiouser to you?
BARBARA OLSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It really does. I mean, the information is coming out piece by piece, bit by bit, and you have to piece it together to find out what the police knew before, and what they are just learning. The search that we had of Rock Creek Park, which is a massive park in the D.C. area, one thought in the beginning, well, why are they just searching that area?
Once we found out that Chandra Levy had indeed been on her computer, or someone had been on her computer the day she disappeared, and we find out that the police did go there immediately. They kept it quiet. So, a lot of this is trying to put everything together, find out what happened and try and to figure out why Chandra left her apartment with only her keys, what she was wearing, where she was going, and hopefully, to lead to where she is today.
KING: Mark, does it portend worse for her the longer this goes?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that it does. The one thing that is somewhat encouraging, however, is when they put out those computer simulations of how she looked and how she might look if she changed, and then you hear about the computer and the laptop that they found and all the information they found on there, in terms of Internet searches and map quests and things like that that she was doing, which I think supports the fact that the police have been taking the position all along that at least, there is a credible theory that she may have absented herself from all of this.
KING: Ann Coulter, does it boggle you that the camp of Condit is, except for an occasional statement like today, a brief statement, quiet?
ANN COULTER, CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER: Yes, and well, I suppose not, because every time they speak it seems to just be a bigger hole for the congressman. I think -- I mean, consider the lie detector test. That was supposed to be this, you know, this genius public relations move. He privately takes a lie detector test, and all anyone can say is, well, then, how come it -- if that proves you told the truth, how come you won't take the police lie detector test?
I mean, all of his public relations moves -- and as of yesterday, his public relations woman was going around pointing out that, you know, Chandra Levy, she got around, she was kind of a round-heeled woman after all, which just keeps making him look worse, and worse, and worse. I mean, what is the theory under which you attack the morals of a missing woman? It doesn't even fit into a defense theory.
KING: So, therefore, Nancy Grace, what do you make of this? I mean, what do you do? Why -- I spoke to someone in their camp today, in the Condit camp, and in the Washington office, and they are just -- they feel that best not to say anything.
NANCY GRACE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, apparently...
KING: It's frustrating.
GRACE: Well, with him not saying anything, I think he is making a huge blunder. And the few things that do leak out, whether it's through his attorney Abbe Lowell or through his staff, which has apparently leaked sleaze, mud smear against Chandra Levy, everything he does seems to make it worse for him.
And frankly, the more he acts in this defensive manner, the more he gives the appearance of having his back against the wall, and my honest question tonight is: why?
KING: And Michael, isn't that a very good question? Doesn't it make it look, you know -- I mean, if perception is reality, he is putting himself into a deeper hole every day, isn't he?
MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: Well, we talked about this a little bit earlier last evening, and he has got the dual problem of being on the one hand a suspect in most people's minds; on the other hand being a public figure on the other, and balancing the two is very difficult, but -- excuse me, one second...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Finish the statement.
ZELDIN: The problem -- the problem is, though, and the real news today is that the police have no new information. They've got no new leads. Assistant Police Chief Gainer on an earlier show tonight on CNN was very frustrated by the fact that this is turning into a completely missing persons with no evidence, no forensic evidence, no testimonial evidence to help them. And the longer it goes on, the worse it is for the Levys.
KING: Now we will pick up with the whole panel -- let me get a break in, I just got to get a break in here, and then we will come back and go at it, and we will include your phone calls as well. This is LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASSISTANT CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: No one has to take a polygraph. You can't force someone to do that. So to his credit, he opened up his apartment, he has turned over some items, allowed us to review his polygraph, and we'll see -- we'll have to see where that takes us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GARY CONDIT (D), CALIFORNIA: Mr. Chairman, just once again, I'd like to compliment you and Mr. Stenholm for crafting a heck of a farm bill. When we get this kind of national media attention for a farm bill, I think it really says something. I can't imagine why else they're here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That was a meeting this morning of the Agriculture Committee, and you've seen that face all day of Condit smiling at the obvious reference by the chairman as to why they had gotten so much attention. He did attend that meeting this morning.
And someone criticized that the other night, Barbara. That it doesn't -- it doesn't look good, that we see it there, of him smiling. He shouldn't smile.
OLSON: Well, immediately after her disappearance went public we saw him leaving rooms smiling, his coat jauntily over his shoulder. And it's true, I kept wondering -- this is a man, even if we believe he's innocent, even if we believe that he had a close relationship, you wouldn't smile. If somebody you knew was missing and no one knew what happened, why would you always be having this big grin on your face?
GERAGOS: Oh, Barbara, come on. Barbara, the other night...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: The other night, Chandra Levy's mother said the same thing. She said the have highs, they have lows, they smile, they laugh. Sometimes they're depressed. You have the whole range of human emotion. Please, that is really reading a lot into something that is not that significant.
OLSON: But Mark, this is a man having a relationship with a woman. It's someone he was close to.
GERAGOS: I understand.
OLSON: And she's missing, and he's smiling like he's on a campaign trail. It as if there is no sense of what's happened.
KING: It doesn't look good though, Mark. Come on, it doesn't look good.
GERAGOS: It doesn't look good, but at the same time, you don't know if that's nervous, if he doesn't know what to do. This guy is in the eye of a hurricane, here. Arguably, a lot of it his own creation, arguably he's not handling the media the way he probably should be doing it. But at the same time, this idea of kind of scrutinizing every smile, or his coat being...
OLSON: The interesting thing is, the television cameras really do show you something about people. You can see into hypocrisy. You can see a lot through a television camera, I think it's interesting. That's why we why we watch so intently. You could see looks on faces. We saw that with Bill Clinton.
But with Gary Condit, we see something very different.
GERAGOS: That's a new psychiatric discipline that I'm not aware of and I haven't done a lot of study on, TV psychoanalysis.
KING: All right, Ann Coulter, would you agree that when he doesn't come forward and speak, and obviously he's an able politician -- he's won a lot of races, the people in his district have always liked him a great deal -- couldn't he appear somewhere and say that, you know, he can't discuss the investigation but he feels -- I mean, why nothing? It boggles us.
COULTER: I think that's absolutely right. At this point we know what is theoretically what he would like to us think, is the worst. That he had affair with this woman, she's missing. The longer she's missing, the more it looks like something untoward happened to her. I can't -- if it's only an affair and he had nothing to do -- is completely innocent of her disappearance, having any involvement in that -- I can't understand why you would not just come out and talk your heart out, hold a press conference. Tell everyone everything you know, and I think that's part of what makes him sitting there laughing and smiling, look so cutesy. He has information and he's holding it.
GERAGOS: At the risk of falling over because I actually agree with Ann Coulter on something, I have to say that I don't fault him, personally, Gary Condit. He's got lawyers. The lawyers are telling him what to do. You know, we've had this discussion before with other clients, that, you know, the client is doing what the lawyer tells him to do.
KING: But he doesn't have to.
GERAGOS: He doesn't have to. I agree. But at the same time, he didn't have to let people in to search his apartment. He didn't have to let people take a DNA, he didn't have to turn over the phone records, didn't have to turn over...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: All right, so then the obvious question is, if he's not involved at all, what's wrong with going on?
GERAGOS: That's the one criticism I've said consistently all along. He needs to be out there and he needs to deal, or somebody on his behalf needs to deal with the media.
KING: Michael and then Nancy. Michael wanted to say something, and then Barbara. I'll try to get everybody equal time -- Michael.
ZELDIN: We have two pieces of news today. One, we've already discussed, which is that the police have found nothing, they're retracing their steps and they're at their wit's end.
The second thing is that Condit's office released today a statement which said that the congressman will address his constituents at the appropriate time. So perhaps what we're seeing here with him coming back into the public -- he hasn't been out in the public since the lie detector test -- trying to create some normalcy by appearing at the hearing, and his office issuing this statement that perhaps we are nearing the point where his lawyers or his media advisers feel that it is safe for him, politically and perhaps legally, to have that press conference that we've all been talking about. So I think incrementally, Congressman Condit may be moving in this direction.
KING: And Nancy Grace, why does he have to do that? Why does he have to have PR and plan it out and when we're going to come forward?
GRACE: He's got an entire blanket of security around him so he doesn't have to come forward. For instance, Larry, the reason he doesn't address the public is because that would be an open forum, and he may be forced to answer some tough questions, questions he won't even answer for police in a police polygraph. KING: The implication of that is, you're implying that he was involved in some sort of manner with her disappearance.
GRACE: This is what I know. I know that the cat's out of the bag, Larry. We all know he slept with a girl, OK? So what's left he needs to hide? Why is he trying to get out of that police polygraph? And another thing -- the defense attorney keeps talking so much about what he has done for the police. DNA -- they could get a warrant for that. Phone records, police already had it. Search of the apartment -- that apartment was so clean, even his fingerprints weren't in there.
(CROSSTALK)
ZELDIN: Where is the probable cause for a warrant?
GERAGOS: Right. You couldn't have gotten any of that. You know that they couldn't have gotten any of that. He came forward and he cooperated.
GRACE: I disagree.
GERAGOS: You disagree what? How are you going to -- you've got no crime, the chief has said they've got no crime.
GRACE: Just because you don't think a grand jury would not want to search his apartment, I think they would. No. 1, that he was one of the last people -- one of the last people with -- he was one of the last people with Chandra Levy. Practically every murder victim knows their killer, and I would not be surprised if that was the same case here, and he lied to police. He is evading...
ZELDIN: It's not a criminal investigation.
GERAGOS: She's not a murder victim. She's a missing person.
GRACE: Well, you know, you may not want to say that, but the reality is, she's been gone so long, the likelihood of her simply being missing is very remote.
GERAGOS: Well, I'm not that pessimistic. I've got a little bit more hope that nothing's happened to her.
GRACE: Well, maybe you should be realistic. Maybe you should be realistic.
GERAGOS: Until she's found, I don't think that that's an appropriate tack to take.
KING: We'll come back with our panel -- Michael, go ahead.
ZELDIN: Statistics are that Nine out of 10 missing adults return. Statistically, the longer they're away, the less likely that is. But to talk about murder and murder suspects, Nancy, I think is irresponsible. And to think that there was at any point in this investigation, up until today, probable cause basis to get a warrant against Congressman Condit, it's not the reality of the practice of law in the District of Columbia, where we all would be looking for...
GRACE: I disagree with you. I am a member of the bar in the District of Columbia and I think very strongly that the grand jury would have a different -- would have a different opinion of this.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Let me get a break and we'll come back with Barbara and Ann, and I'll continue to try to referee this. And we'll take your calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GAINER: We've been taking a look at the psychological and social profile of Miss Levy since the beginning of this, and frankly, we've been conducting interviews and interrogations since the beginning of this and we've been doing searches since the beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. Barbara Olson, you were going to say something, and I want to pick up some phone calls.
OLSON: Well, I was going to sort of review what we do now. I think Nancy Grace is right, that there are a lot of issues. However, the police didn't have probable cause in the beginning, so yes, Gary Condit gave DNA. He had to give permission for a search. And he knew that if he didn't, he became more and more likely to be a suspect, more and more focus was going on him.
But the thing to remember, he did this on his own timetable. It is probably the bit of good lawyering that actually we've gotten to see publicly. And so, I think when you say he -- a grand jury would have taken him in, one would hope they would, one would hope he has been under oath. The real problem is, in Washington, D.C., when you have someone who is under investigation -- or I guess they are calling it an inquiry now of Gary Condit -- and they are a congressman, everyone is very cognizant of the fact this is a public official, it has to be handled very carefully.
And Gary Condit said, I'll take a lie detector. And then what did he do? He did on his own schedule, so all of the things he has done that...
GERAGOS: But what difference does it make?
(CROSSTALK)
OLSON: It makes a huge difference, Mark, and you know that.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: ... the Polygraph -- the polygraph -- I hate to interrupt you, Barbara, I really do, but the polygraph... OLSON: I'd love to talk about the polygraph, it was a joke!
GERAGOS: Well, I mean, the polygraph is not a joke. It was -- everybody has had the implication, so to speak, that this polygraph examiner is less than credible. This is a guy who is probably the premier polygrapher, other than Ed Gelb or (UNINTELLIGIBLE), or somebody like that in the country who was the FBI's polygrapher...
(CROSSTALK)
OLSON: ... you realize that when you give your clients, I'm sure you give them pre-polygraph tests.
GERAGOS: I always give them pre-polygraph tests.
OLSON: Absolutely. And you give it in a certain way. I can take a polygraph test, and one way where I will pass...
GERAGOS: And 95 percent of the time, they fail the polygraphs, Barbara, as you well know.
(CROSSTALK)
OLSON: ... very, very susceptible to the examiner and the questions.
GERAGOS: Right.
OLSON: And let's face it, no matter how good the polygraph examiner was, he doesn't have the evidence that the D.C. police has, he doesn't have the evidence, he only has the evidence that Mr. Condit's attorney gave him, and that is a huge distinction.
GERAGOS: The three...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: The three questions that were asked were the three central questions, No. 1. No. 2, the polygraph charts were given over to the police so that the police could have their polygrapher take a look at them. You can't fudge the results of the polygraph. As long as the examiner has got the integrity, you would have gotten the same results on the government...
KING: Ann, you go and I'll get a call in -- Ann.
COULTER: I -- I mean, to be talking about a polygrapher, a polygraph expert as a fine polygraph expert is like talking about someone being an expert in astrology. This is voodoo, as by the way, you are admitting...
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: ... TV just last week, Mark, we are talking about something that is less of a science than astrology. I think the problem with it was Condit makes a big effort and, you know, this public relations of, well, I took a polygraph test, therefore I'm telling the truth. But then, says, but I won't take, you know, your astrology test.
(CROSSTALK)
Jamison, Pennsylvania, we'll go to some calls, hello.
CALLER: Larry, I really enjoy your show.
KING: Thank you.
CALLER: Why -- my question would be to Nancy Grace -- why do you think Mr. Condit is guilty of some wrongdoing to Ms. Levy, when all he has done has had an affair, and also do you equate guilt with lack of response to the media?
GRACE: Oh, absolutely not. I don't think he is any -- under any duty whatsoever, ma'am, to respond to the media. But after handling many, many missing persons, missing persons that turned into murdered persons, I'm sorry to say, after handling a lot of cases like that, I find it highly unusual that he did not come forward to the police and be honest.
Now, I understand a lot of guys, a lot of women even would want to deny an affair, but when this girl's life could be hanging in the balance, if he could look police in the eye and say, "I didn't sleep with her, we were just friends," what else would he do to save his political career?
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: ... that is absolutely not what happened! That isn't what happened! If he had done that, that's a crime. You know it and I know it, if he denied it...
KING: He didn't deny it?
GERAGOS: If he lied...
KING: How do you know what he did?
GERAGOS: Because the police have said that he was cooperative and that he did not in any way -- they had no crime. If he had lied to the police and said, "I didn't have an affair..."
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: If he denied the affair, and later admitted it, you know as well as I do that that's a violation of the law.
GRACE: He denied the fair.
GERAGOS: Then they've got a crime.
GRACE: He denied the affair.
GERAGOS: Why aren't they charging him with a crime?
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Anne -- why haven't they charged him?
COULTER: Well, could I -- well, because I think they have bigger fish to fry, but if I...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Are you kidding me, they're looking into obstruction of justice...
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: OK. Can I answer the caller's question? And that is, even before Condit's behavior comes into this at all, once a woman is missing for this amount of time, the odds are just very strong that -- that her disappearance has something to do with someone she knew, someone she knew was involved.
When you throw in that she was having an affair, she was having an affair with a married man, she was having an affair with a married man whose wife had just come back to town, she was having an affair with a married man whose wife had just come back to town, and disappeared at precisely the moment it would be very convenient...
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: ... have her disappear. That is even before you get to the fact that he then denies having an affair and tells one of his mistresses that he may have to go into hiding when she has been -- before he knows she has disappeared perhaps, and certainly before she has been gone very long.
GERAGOS: Well, that and 50 cents won't get you a probable cause for a search warrant.
COULTER: ... I mean, we are arguing this on the basis of leaks to "The Washington Post," so to say that, oh well, the evidence that "The Washington Post" isn't enough to indict. I don't know what the police have in these cases...
KING: We'll be right back. We'll be right back. He'll be right back and check in with Michael Zeldin who I believe is due some time. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT LEVY, CHANDRA LEVY'S FATHER: The longer it goes, the more upset we get about, you know, not fining her and not knowing where she is. You know, it's just taking so long, and don't know when will or if we will find anything out, but really still hope for...
QUESTION: Are you still -- are you still hopeful, still optimistic? LEVY: Well, let's say hopeful. To keep our prayers and hopes that, you know, we can find her, bring her back. Got to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Let's go to Burlington, Vermont. We'll have Michael respond. Go ahead, Burlington.
CALLER: Hi, I'd like to know who has the power to decide to impanel a grand jury, and if the opinion of the panel is that if it is someone other than the congressman involved, that would have happened already?
KING: Michael, great question.
ZELDIN: The U.S. attorney in the district can impanel a grand jury if they feel that there is evidence warranting a criminal investigation. And no, I don't think in this case that there are any facts, regardless who the subject of that inquiry is, congressman or not, to warrant a grand jury with respect to the missing Chandra Levy.
With respect to the possibility that Congressman Condit asked Anne Marie Smith to sign a false affidavit, possibly, close, I don't think it is there yet, because the affidavit says on the face of it, "You may change any facts you like in this affidavit." Maybe you are close up there, but with respect to Chandra Levy, there aren't the facts -- the facts that Nancy and Ann have created I think are created.
Congressman Condit did not say that he did not have an affair; in fact, we don't know what he said. We know only on the third interview with police, acknowledged through a leak that he acknowledged having an affair; we don't know that he denied having an affair the first two times. We know that from Billy Martin but they've got an alternative agenda here.
We don't know what transpired in those police interviews and it is irresponsible to make up facts, as being made up tonight by Nancy and...
KING: Right. You're saying, if the missing person were Zelda Smith and the person she was having an affair with was an insurance agent named Joe Wachtel, there would be no investigation going on of Joe Wachtel.
GERAGOS: Not only would there be no investigation of Joe Wachtel, there would be absolutely no police out there combing parks, there would be no media attention...
(CROSSTALK)
ZELDIN: Joe Wachtel would not be...
(CROSSTALK) GRACE: That is so not accurate. If this was not a congressman, the suspect would be under the jail tonight. OK? He wouldn't be smiling for the cameras, and every time I see Condit smiling at cameras, I wonder if that was the same smile he used to make Chandra Levy fall in love with him.
KING: Ann, do you believe that if this were a simple Joe and a simple Jane, the police would have him under intense investigation?
COULTER: Yeah, I think the media would not have him under intense...
KING: Yes, but would the police, given the facts we know, would he be a suspect? Joe Wachtel and the missing woman.
COULTER: Absolutely, if this was missing...
KING: Barbara, you agree?
OLSON: You know, when you are doing an investigation, what you look for is motive, and so, we have all been looking at Gary Condit because we see a motive. He is a public official, he was having a relationship that he wanted to cover up. That is an investigation, that is why they are saying they are having inquiry.
And I agree with Michael, is that, his call to Anne Marie Smith is the most damning evidence, the problem is, we also know, the police have had to interrogate him three times. And now they haven't called him a suspect, maybe they didn't push him hard enough in the first interview about the relationship because they didn't get it until the third interview, as far as we know.
But we know his staff went out and denied, we know the staff is his agent and they did deny it to the media so he is guilty of lying to media, so he is guilty of being evasive, and those are facts!
KING: We'll get final comments from each of our panelists, get one more quick call too right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Concorde, California; hello.
CALLER: If it turns out Chandra Levy is in hiding and comes forward, can she be in any legal trouble?
OLSON: Absolutely.
KING: Good question. Who wants to take it? Ann.
COULTER: I had thought about that, I mean, struck me, very late one night. Best alternative possibility that -- I mean I have to say it's a great way to get a congressman in trouble, going into hiding. The problem with that theory is it is insane because you would have to have a conspiracy of that half a dozen people who are committing a crime. It is a crime to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a false crime. (CROSSTALK)
KING: It is. Is it a crime?
ZELDIN: The answer is no.
KING: Michael, you say no?
ZELDIN: To go into hiding? Ann, I think you should go to bed earlier. I don't think there is a crime of going into hiding.
GERAGOS: Before she starts drinking.
COULTER: No, to allege a crime has occurred. She would have to be...
ZELDIN: Who alleged? She alleged?
COULTER: She would have had to have done this in cahoots with her aunt, the stewardess, her parents...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Why would she have to be in cahoots with anybody? Why couldn't she just decide -- I agree that it is a stretch -- but why couldn't she just decide I'm going to absent myself, this is one way of getting back, I'm not going to...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Is that a crime?
GERAGOS: No, that is not a crime. Only if -- only if she is in -- only if she is in cahoots with...
KING: Nancy, is it a crime if she left? Nancy.
GRACE: Absolutely not. Everybody in this country, even if they are dating a married congressman, can take a vacation once in a while and not call home.
But when I look back -- what we are talking about tonight in a situation there in D.C., you know, not just as a prosecutor of violent crime, but as a victim of violent crime, I'm very disturbed that Mr. Condit could be so cold of a nature, that he cares more about his political career while he knows that a girl's life could hang in the balance and is not cooperating with police!
GERAGOS: Just, you know, to keep saying that as kind of a mantra that people are supposed to believe it is -- irresponsible
GRACE: We are not idiots! Condit is not fooling me.
GERAGOS: He is cooperating; he may not be taking the best media attack, but...
GRACE: I don't know who you are representing tonight, but he is not cooperating with his proposal.
(CROSSTALK)
OLSON: There is some evidence missing and some real critical evidence that we have not heard about, and one thing that I wonder about, and it would be very useful and I hope the police have it, is Gary Condit's telephone records. And I'm assuming...
GERAGOS: He's already turned them over.
(CROSSTALK)
OLSON: Assuming the police have them, we don't know what's in them; we know that Chandra Levy paged him so there is records of that.
We know they had a lot of phone calls and he had a private line, that will give the police a lot of information, about how late Gary Condit spoke to Chandra Levy, during her missing period, during the April 30th to May 3 or 4th. We don't have that.
The other thing that would be nice to know that we don't have is Gary Condit -- what exactly was he doing May 1? We know the staff turned over a schedule, and come to find out the schedule was wrong. What Gary Condit was supposed to be doing on May 1, which was with a reporter, the reporter has now said, it wasn't May 1, it was May 2.
(CROSSTALK)
OLSON: Does that look suspicious? We don't know; we don't have the schedule.
KING: We're out of time; there will be more coming, I guarantee this, the saga that doesn't go away and let's hope -- wouldn't it be nice to just find that she did runaway? The best news, wouldn't it?
GERAGOS: Absolutely.
KING: Thanks very much for joining us.
I'm Larry King. Good night.
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