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CNN Larry King Live
The Investigation Into Chandra Levy
Aired July 18, 2001 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the Condit camp denies it tried to smear Chandra Levy. Day 79, still no comment from the congressman, still no sign of the missing intern. In New York, an investigative reporter who has been covering Condit/Levy story since it broke, Lisa DePaulo contributing writer for "Talk" magazine. Plus, the Washington bureau chief of Salon.com Kerry Lauerman. Salon stirred up a fuss by reporting a Condit tried to tarnish Chandra's reputation.
And then ready to debate the latest twist in this story, former federal prosecutor and best-selling author, Barbara Olson. I Los Angeles defense attorney Mark Geragos. In New York former prosecutor Nancy Grace now with Court TV. Back in D.C. constitutional lawyer and syndicated columnist Ann Coulter, and with her, former federal prosecutor, Cynthia Alksne. They are all next on LARRY KING LIVE
We are going to spend the opening segment discussing these charges back-and-forth about statements made, to Salon.com, and also involving "Talk" magazine.
Kerry, this story was done by whom for you?
KERRY LAUERMAN, SALON.COM: Joshua Micha Marshall who is one of our regular writers.
KING: And he met with?
LAUERMAN: He actually spoke on the phone with Marina Ein.
KING: Who is?
LAUERMAN: She the chief spokeswoman for Gary Condit.
KING: And she supposedly said to him, and he printed that?
LAUERMAN: Basically, she gave him a heads up on a story by Lisa DePaulo that was coming out in "Talk" magazine, and speculated that there would be questions, or there would be stories about a history of one night stands in Chandra Levy's past.
KING: And Lisa DePaulo, does that confirm what you are printing when you are -- when does your story come out?
LISA DEPAULO, "TALK" MAGAZINE: August 3.
KING: Is that correct?
DEPAULO: No. We are not only not printing it, we are not printing it because it is not true. Chandra Levy was anything but a one night stand kind of woman. Chandra Levy was madly in love with this man. She was devoted to his man.
KING: So, what do you make, Lisa, of Marina Ein making a statement to Salon telling them it is going to be in your story?
DEPAULO: Well you know, your guess is as good as mine on that one. Frankly, I have known Marina for years. I have a great deal of respect for Marina. But sometimes I think you are only as good as your client. And, Gary Condit has lied. He lied for 67 days. I don't know what he is telling them.
But I do think that Marina Ein in my conversations with her, my conversations with her were about things I had found about Gary Condit and I wanted a comment from his spokesperson. The only thing she ever said to me about Chandra Levy was how bad she felt for the family.
KING: Here is what Marina Ein said in a statement released today. "I did not and would not make the statements that have been attributed to me. I am the mother of a daughter who is approximately Chandra Levy's age and I am a female professional. The suggestion that I would make comments like those attributed to me is abhorrent. I deeply regret any additional hurt that this incident has caused the Levy family."
Kerry, are you standing by your journalist?
LAUERMAN: We are absolutely standing by Josh and we have issued our own response on our Web site.
KING: Lisa, you say you have known Marina a long time and like her. You are only as good as your client. You think the client said to her, tell them this and then make this statement today?
DEPAULO: Look, this hasn't been Abbe Lowell's finest couple weeks either. I do think, you know, Marina, in my opinion has always been a professional. It shocked me when I heard this. The Salon reporter is an excellent reporter, so it is a weird thing.
I could tell you absolutely that A, this is not something you will read in "Talk" magazine and the reason you won't read it is because it is true.
KING: What will we read?
DEPAULO: You are going to read -- you are going to get good idea of Chandra Levy's state of mind in those last few weeks, and her feelings about the relationship, which I think has been greatly overlooked except for the revelations from her Aunt Linda. In many ways it's amazing that she confided in anyone given the rules of this relationship, where you tell anyone it is over, and you can't get in elevator and all this -- it is pretty great that she did it. And thank God she talked... KING: That's what Anne Marie Smith told us last Friday, that the rules were very controlling.
DEPAULO: Thank God she confided in some people, because we would be left only with his version.
KING: You've got a good point.
In your July 16 story the headline was, "The Congressman Spinners Shoot Themselves In The Foot Again."
LAUERMAN: Right.
KING: What do you make of this? I mean these are professional people around him.
LAUERMAN: We were as shocked as anybody when she actually told Josh this. And I'm not surprised that she has reacted strongly, that it is being publicized as it is, but since she has contested the quotes and we have moved forward on our stories, several reporters have told me on background that she told very similar comments about Chandra Levy to them.
So, you know, I don't think this was just an isolated incident where she slipped up with Josh. I do think that this was a plan on their part to at least distract reporters from focusing so much on Gary Condit.
KING: Lisa, you are going to be part of our panel in just a moment or two, but I'll tell you now. Why do you think they are handling this so poorly -- the Condit side?
DEPAULO: Because I think the client is handling this poorly. It took Gary Condit 67 days to admit he was in a relationship with this woman, and why is it so relevant? This is a missing person case, by definition, you have to focus on the people closest to her. We know at the very least that he was one of the last people to speak to her. So for him to have been duplicitous for 67 days while these poor people, this family, has been in agony, and the nation has been watching, you know it just is wrong.
Even if he is not guilty of anything more than a zipper problem it was wrong.
KING: Kerry, the stories not going away, right?
LAUERMAN: Yes.
KING: Salon is staying with it?
LAUERMAN: Absolutely. Absolutely.
KING: Thank you very much for being with us. Lisa you remain, and we did invite Marina Ein to appear tonight and declined. Our panel will assemble plus Lisa, right after this. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT LEVY, CHANDRA LEVY'S FATHER: No, I think there doing everything they are they are able to right now. And you know we are just trying to keep our hope up. It is really emotionally pretty distraught. You know. Unhappy, and, sad, and angry, and just everything, all at once.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Let's meet our panel. They will be with us for the rest of the program. Remaining with us in New York is Lisa DePaulo of "Talk" magazine. Her article will hit the news stands on August 3. Here in Washington, Barbara Olson, former federal prosecutor and best-selling author of "Hell to Pay: the Unfolding Story of Hillary Rodham Clinton. "
In Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, defense attorney. His clients have included Roger Clinton and Susan McDougal. In New York Nancy Grace the former prosecutor and host of "Trial Heat" on Court TV. Back here in Washington Ann Coulter, constitutional lawyer, syndicated columnist, legal reporter for human events. Also a best-selling author, her book, "High Crimes and Misdemeanors."
And finally here in Washington, Cynthia Alksne the former federal prosecutor. Before we even go to the panel, let's show you a little bit of the Agriculture Committee this morning and I think we are going to hear Congressman Condit talk -- watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GARY CONDIT (D), CALIFORNIA: Don't rely on MAP. Don't rely on some Ag program to take care of the deficiencies that we agreed to in a trade agreement. That's nonsense. We have to go to the floor and argue with people that come from the inner cities about MAP as thought it was a general assistance or welfare program. We are doing that because we didn't get a good trade deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Cynthia, refreshing to at least hear the voice.
CYNTHIA ALKSNE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know what, I find nothing about him refreshing. His little Cheshire smile, and his suit and his hair and everything pressed and so neatly, and having such a good time while this family is grieving. There is nothing refreshing about him.
KING: Mark, apparently you are the only defender here on the panel. It's hard...
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Also thank goodness you had Lisa here. I'm the only non-blonde I think in the group as well.
(LAUGHTER)
So I feel a little out of sorts here. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't make me confess, Mark, don't make me confess.
KING: Why, Mark, are so few people coming forward for him?
GERAGOS: Well, Larry, I hate to be in a position where I'm second-guessing anything, but I've said all along this media strategy is atrocious. The fact now that the media spokesperson is out having to defend what she's doing tells you that you've reached just about bottom in terms of that.
In terms of defending him, however, I'm a little perplexed by what Lisa was saying, because she says that she knows Marina and that Marina is apparently someone of some pretty good character and good reputation, and that Marina has come out and said she didn't say it. And now Lisa is saying, well, then it must be that Congressman Condit is some evil guy. So I don't understand it.
Either Marina is lying or Marina is telling the truth. What does that have to do with Congressman Condit?
KING: Lisa, you want to respond before I get the rest of the panel in?
DEPAULO: My God. She represents him, first of all. But I think the key to Marina here is, you know, she does have a great reputation. So did Abbe Lowell. But you know, neither of them have been really hitting it out of the park.
GERAGOS: Well, are you saying, Lisa, that she's lying now? I mean, is that the implication that Marina is lying when she makes this denial?
DEPAULO: I can't imagine that coming out of Marina's mouth, but I also know the Salon reporter and I'm absolutely convinced that he had it right.
KING: Let's find out what other people think.
DEPAULO: OK, good.
KING: Barbara, she stands by Marina as a good person. Do you think Gary Condit told her to sat that? And if he did, why didn't she quit?
BARBARA OLSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know what the problem with this is, we have seen this before, the character assassination. We went through this with Bill Clinton. We had the character assassination of the women to take the focus off. So I would like to say that somebody got it wrong, but it's too much of a repeat of that whole affair. It's what the press called nuts and sluts, you know, the women are bad women so the man must not be that bad.
KING: Yeah, but Monica Lewinsky wasn't missing, was she? OLSON: No, you're right, but I'm talking about the defense that was put forward for President Clinton, and Abbe Lowell was involved in that. And I certainly hope that's not a defense, because what you just said: She's a missing young girl and that's an atrocious defense. But we do have a journalist who says, I heard that. We have a PR person who said, I didn't say that. And it's out there. And it's just deja vu.
KING: Nancy, is the perception getting greater, frankly put, that this congressman is involved in some way with something?
NANCY GRACE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, it really is, Larry, and everything he -- well, his people since he's not speaking -- put out there makes him look worse and worse, because he still refuses to address the disappearance as well as simply, what were you doing that day, Congressman Condit?
We still don't have an accounting of what he was doing.
GERAGOS: Well, Nancy, Nancy, there is a distinction, though, wouldn't you admit? He has addressed that with the police. He has not done that with the press. I would agree with you that from a press standpoint he probably should, but he has done that and cooperated with the police.
DEPAULO: You're wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Hold it. Hold it. Let me -- let me say something. I've got six people, I have one at time, and I realize that Mr. Geragos is in the position of being the defender. So try to wait until somebody finishes a sentence.
Let me bring Ann in. She hasn't been heard from yet. What do you make of this whole Marina Ein thing?
ANN COULTER, CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER: I think, as Barbara says, in a different way this is exactly like the Clinton case, in the sense that all of the attention gets focused on the representatives, the spokesmen, as if, you know, Gary Condit had absolutely nothing to do with this. I mean, it really is like Clinton saying...
KING: Put the victim on trial, but that's an old law trick that goes way before Clinton.
COULTER: ... we are going to try to get this information -- no, it's a slightly different trick, and that is Clinton saying, we are going to try to -- my people will try to get the information out to you. And I don't know anything about executive privilege being -- well, you're the president, and it's the same thing here. I mean, Gary Condit has hired these people. I do not believe they are pursuing a media strategy with him just back serving on this important Agriculture Committee. He knows what's going on.
KING: You believe the same thing? You think, Cynthia, he's directing this?
ALKSNE: I think he's directing it. And I think she should be fired or she should quit. I think it is a sign that he is essentially a little weasel. And it's shocking that she still works there.
KING: All right, Lisa, if she is this honorable person, as you say she is, why doesn't she quit?
DEPAULO: You know, I'm shocked -- I'm as shocked as you are about this. But what I think is really important to get back to here is that it's not true. Chandra Levy was not a one-night-stand kind of woman. As a matter of fact, she was deeply in love with this man. She believed that he cared about her. And I do believe that Chandra Levy's state of mind vis-a-vis the relationship is a really important thing to look at.
And all of this -- you know, Gary Condit's -- look, he's handled this case from day one like a PR problem, which is to say a zipper problem, not like it was a -- and this is much more than a zipper problem. This is a missing woman who is likely murdered, who is his constituent, hello, you know.
GRACE: I think it's pretty obvious...
KING: One at a time...
GRACE: ... I think the reason she's not quitting is because her job is PR, and to jump ship right now would look worse for her client. But I wouldn't be surprised if the took off after a period of weeks.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Well, is it possible, can't you consider the possibility that maybe she's telling the truth? That she didn't say it? I mean, I don't understand...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
GERAGOS: ... how at any point...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's move on, Marc.
(LAUGHTER)
GERAGOS: But Marina -- there's no possibility that Marina is telling the truth? We've already decided that Marina is a liar and that this Salon person, who's...
KING: The panel has decided...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Boy, you are one -- you have one cynical crew out there, Larry, I'll tell you.
KING: Cynthia, you wanted to say? ALKSNE: I want to tell you this. It seems to me that he is acting not as a lover or a friend or even as a congressman of this young missing girl, but as somebody who thinks he is going to have to pick a jury in the District of Columbia at some point. And he's trying to poison the jury pool. And this is a classic trick.
KING: You really think so?
ALKSNE: Sure, I do.
(CROSSTALK)
I mean, there is no other reason. It's a PR disaster. It makes absolutely no sense. His career is over. It's bordering on felony stupid, and the only explanation would be he wanted to do it.
GERAGOS: What possible explanation -- what possible explanation is there is to denigrate her? There is no reason in the world from a defense standpoint to denigrate her.
ALKSNE: It's not a good strategy. I'm just telling you what it is.
(CROSSTALK)
ALKSNE: Marc, listen, I have tried a lot of rape cases and this is what happens.
GERAGOS: As have I. As have I. But in this case, we're not talking about -- we're not talking about consent. We're not talking about anything that Chandra Levy said.
KING: Hold it, Marc. Marc, hold it. Let me get a break and I will come right back. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), MINORITY LEADER: The focus here needs to be on finding this young woman, and that is what we all ought to remain focused on. As far as I can see, Gary is cooperating and will cooperate with the police in every possible way to try to assist in that investigation. As to his political situation, that in the future becomes a matter between the voters in his district as it does with all of us, and him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Nancy Grace, if the tactic seems nutty and the PR seems weird, then they're bringing the presumption on themselves, aren't they?
GRACE: You know, they really are, Larry, but you know, this is not a new trick. Whenever there is a woman victim -- and I'm not just talking about rape cases; I'm talking about aggravated assault or armed robbery, somehow, Larry -- I don't know how it happens in every trial I've ever tried, well over 100 -- the woman's reputation gets dragged into the courtroom. This is no different. It's an age-old trick. Every defense attorney has it in their hip pocket, and they're using it.
KING: Barbara, would you agree with that? Would you go that far?
OLSON: I agree with Nancy Grace. I mean...
KING: Put the victim on trial.
OLSON: ... you put the victim on trial, you make the jury not like the victim. They're not there. The defendant is sitting there looking very remorseful.
GRACE: Looking...
OLSON: And it is -- although we've got new laws that prevent that, it does sneak in.
KING: But it's hard to pull it off when the person's missing.
OLSON: That's the thing, and when you're a politician who has taken advantage of a young girl who has come and fallen in love, it's a disaster then to do that.
KING: And it's going beyond that, folks. Ann, I'll ask you: The public polls say the public thinks half of Congress is doing what Condit did.
COULTER: Right, which they would have good reason to believe, since congressmen keep going on TV and various Democratic spokesmen saying, well...
KING: Other congressmen in the past in both parties have had the problem...
COULTER: Well, but every time it is a big story. I mean, Monica was a big story. This is a big story. It's not...
KING: Livingston was a big story.
COULTER: You wouldn't be reporting on it if it...
GERAGOS: Henry Hyde was a big story.
COULTER: ... were a plain...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Newt Gingrich was a big story.
COULTER: Right. OK, but that's not the point.
GERAGOS: All of those were. COULTER: The point I'm making is that the fact that it is a big story suggests that in fact not everyone is doing it. And you know, as Edmund Burke said, "He who accuses all of mankind convicts only one."
You know, these people who go out and say, "Oh, everybody does it, everybody does it," they're telling you something about themselves. And in fact, in the one single-most comprehensive -- the only serious sex study ever conducted in America was out of the University of Chicago in 1994, and it turns out that 75 percent of men and 85 percent of women have never been unfaithful.
So you know, don't listen to these congressmen going on TV saying everybody does it. Most people don't do it...
GERAGOS: And the other...
COULTER: ... even politicians.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: And how many of those people were lying when they were responding to that study?
KING: Hold on.
GERAGOS: How many people were lying when they were responding to that study, Ann?
COULTER: Now I'm wondering about you, Cynthia.
KING: We don't know...
GERAGOS: Hey, you know, Larry...
KING: Hold it. Hold it, Mark. Cynthia wanted to say something and then you.
ALSKNE: I mean, I think it's happening on Capitol Hill all the time. I think it's rampant.
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: Why do you say that? What, are you in their zones of privacy? How do you know what they're doing in their bedroom, Cynthia?
KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) fooling around is rampant.
ALSKNE: Yeah, I think it's completely -- I mean, am I missing something?
COULTER: I'll tell you...
(CROSSTALK)
ALSKNE: Yeah, ooh, wow, ooh, shocked! Oh, my goodness! There's...
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: I'd be very nervous right now if I were your husband, Cynthia. That's all I have to say.
OLSON: Well, I worked on the Hill. I don't think it does. And it's too bad...
KING: You don't think it's -- even though it's men in position of power with women who are vulnerable
OLSON: I don't think it's rampant. I think a lot of people -- you know, these interns come from their districts. They're from usually the parents of someone they know, donors, people that have supported them. That's a really stupid thing to do regardless of how it turns out. Most do not prey.
The one thing I wanted to talk about was, do you know what we have done to Thomas Jefferson with the everyone does it? Thomas Jefferson used to be ranked regularly as one of our top presidents. The most recent rating, heading down to the bottom. Now we find out that it isn't likely that Thomas Jefferson did it like everyone else did when President Clinton was trying to defend himself.
So I take -- I have a real problem saying everyone does it. It brings us all down. It makes the public not trust Congress, and it isn't true.
KING: But one bad apple spoils a bunch, to quote a cliche.
OLSON: And you wind up with what Cynthia now believes, is they must all do it because I keep hearing about it. .
KING: Yeah, she's not stupid.
OLSON: No, absolutely not, Larry.
KING: We love (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Cynthia.
We'll be back with more of our panel. We'll include your phone calls at the bottom of the hour. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DEPAULO: Lisa DePaulo -- and you're the investigative reporter here -- I -- is something big about to break? Is somebody siting on something here? Ins there a story -- a story larger than this looming?
DEPAULO: Well, I do think so. I think that there is some indication that there are more secrets of Gary Condit. I think that, you know, he, like I said -- you know, we can talk about, you know, Monica, Bill and all this over and over and over. But Bill Clinton's intern is still very much with us. And you know, the key here is that this is someone who was not forthcoming, who lied, who not only lied, but put his staff out there to lie for him and...
KING: Mark...
DEPAULO: So go ahead.
KING: Mark...
GERAGOS: Yes.
KING: ... umm...
GERAGOS: I'm still trying to figure out that Thomas Jefferson stuff from Barbara...
(LAUGHTER)
.... but I -- pretty soon -- pretty soon that's going to hit me and I'm going to figure out...
COULTER: Very simple. Everything you heard was untrue.
GERAGOS: ... what she's talking about.
KING: I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a book in Edmund Burke...
GERAGOS: Yeah, I know. Well...
COULTER: He had no affairs either.
GERAGOS: I ascribe that -- I ascribe that to Ann and her "Methinks thou dost protest too much" stuff. So we...
COULTER: I'm not married.
KING: Mark, why doesn't he apparently appear...
GERAGOS: And I wonder why, Ann. I wonder why.
KING: Mark...
GERAGOS: Can you imagine coming home to this crew?
COULTER: Another excellent argument. Last night I was drunk. Tonight...
GERAGOS: I know. And tonight you're single.
KING: Why do you think...
GERAGOS: Well, there's a correlation there, Ann...
COULTER: You have many excellent arguments.
KING: Hello!
GERAGOS: Yes. Hi, Larry. KING: Mark, why do you think -- why do you think it doesn't appear that he's more concerned?
GERAGOS: Well, I -- obviously, he's listening to his lawyers, and his lawyers are telling him...
KING: Don't be concerned?
GERAGOS: ... you're not going to go out there and talk. Well, not to be -- not to be concerned, but go about your business. This idea that he is not concerned, I don't buy that for a second. I mean, everybody who is around him has indicated to me, at least privately, that he is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's concerned about himself.
GERAGOS: I will tell you once again that one of the problems is -- and that I would encourage him -- he needs to get into a forum, something like what we're doing here, and at least talk one-on-one, and at least put out his -- you know, his statement and let people see that he is -- he is concerned, because I think that he truly is
GRACE: Well, would you also encourage him to take that police polygraph? Would you encourage that as well? Why is he still hiding something?
GERAGOS: Well, I can tell you -- Nancy, I don't think that he's hiding from the police polygraph. If he were my client, I would tell him to take the polygraph, because I think if he passed Colvert's, that there's no question that he would pass the police.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Spoken like a great defense attorney, Mark. You know that people...
(CROSSTALK)
... polygraph and then later were indicted. OK. So just because he passed a polygraph by Barry Colvert does not mean you're telling the truth.
GERAGOS: Why? Because some grand jury, because some prosecutor (UNINTELLIGIBLE) indicted him. That means...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Cynthia -- Cynthia, why is -- and this has come up a lot, and brought up today on certain programs. Why is this our business, his life? If he had nothing to do with this -- and that's what the investigate -- as the police chief says, who he slept with ain't our concern?
ALSKNE: If it turns out he had nothing do with this and he had dealt with it right up front, it really wouldn't be our business. But here's what we have: We have a potential obstruction, we have a missing girl, and part of the link in figuring that out is, "Is it possible that he's responsible?" which means we have to...
GERAGOS: Where is the obstruction?
ALSKNE: ... like it or not, we have to -- one second there, one second there, Sparky.
GERAGOS: I'm just asking you. Where is the obstruction?
ALSKNE: One second.
KING: Sparky?
GERAGOS: Where is the obstruction? You can't obstruct "The Star" magazine, and that's what the affidavit was for, was to get "Star" magazine not to...
KING: All right. That's a fair -- hold it, Mark. Let her answer. Where is the obstruction?
ALSKNE: The obstruction is calling this woman and telling her not to cooperate with the FBI, potentially there. The obstruction is trying to get her to sign a false affidavit, which "Guess what?" would have been paraded around everywhere possible.
GERAGOS: Once it was...
ALSKNE: And let me tell you what -- let me tell you what, if a United States congressman is trying to get this woman and other women to lie to the press to cover up an affair so that the press can't find out and the police can't find out about his relationship so they can never find the woman, we got a problem.
You don't like that -- tough.
GERAGOS: We may have a problem. We may have a problem.
ALSKNE: As a prosecutor, the goal of the prosecutor and the police is to fund this woman...
GERAGOS: Cynthia...
ALSKNE: ... and one way to do it is to find out who the other women are and whether or not he has hurt the other women, choked the other women...
KING: I've got to get a break. I've got to get a break, and then Mark can comment. We'll reintroduce the panel. We'll go to phone calls. And Ann will give us some other great quotes from the past. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back on LARRY KING LIVE.
Let's reintroduce the panel. They are: In New York, Lisa DePaulo of "Talk" magazine. We're all looking forward to that August 3rd issue. In Washington, Barbara Olson, the former federal prosecutor and bestselling author. In Los Angeles, the defense attorney Mark Geragos. In New York, Nancy Grace of Court TV. In Washington, Ann Coulter, a syndicated columnist and legal reporter "Human Events." And also in Washington is Cynthia Alksne, the former federal prosecutor.
I'll start this time with you, Ann. The FBI has transferred this investigation to "Cold Case." The Cold Case Unit historically handles toughest cases with few clues. Is that sort of saying, "We have run cold."
COULTER: We'd be speculating on that. It's driving all of us crazy that the media -- or rather the police is not holding constant press conferences and giving us updates on everything they have. But I think it -- it is almost inevitably a cold case when they don't have a body. That -- that's a pretty big part of this case here.
KING: So is this going to peter out?
COULTER: I don't think so, but I...
KING: It's not going to go away?
COULTER: ... but I do think -- you know, you have to remember when we discuss these things on TV -- and especially with criminal- defense attorneys like Mark -- all we know is what is reported in the press. Obviously, that's what we're talking about here.
And you don't have to have every, you know, decision you make in life proved beyond a reasonable doubt through the adversary process. We do know some things that the police have, and it's not looking very good, and I don't think the case would be dropped.
KING: Barbara?
OLSON: Well, cold case...
KING: It's cold. Does he...
OLSON: What Ann said's true. There isn't a body. It's -- they've now gone over evidence. They went back through Rock Creek Park. They've gone back through the dumpsters. They've checked the vacant buildings. They've rechecked her room. They've Luminoled, you know, Gary Condit's apartment. They've gone through the car of the staff that he used.
They don't have a body, and they don't have enough, obviously, to have probable cause to move further. They need more.
Now what they are looking at, though, is Gary Condit, what Cynthia was talking about. What does do with women? We know they had a relationship, and I think that is a fact. How does he treat women? Is -- you know, when you had Anne Marie Smith, she talked about being -- how controlling he was of other parts of her life, even though she was mistress.
KING: Yeah, he was...
OLSON: He was trying to control her life. That's something a prosecutor's going to key into and go, "Just how far does this guy go? Is he someone" -- we know -- we found out about the neckties tied to bed. What does that lead to? That's certainly not something they dropped, and they've been very quiet about that. They're looking that.
KING: Mark is going to be upset.
Cynthia...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Let Cynthia go. Then you, Mark.
ALKSNE: I just want to say one thing about the Cold Case Squad in the United States Attorney's office here in D.C. They have a very close relationship. We've had some really tough cases. There was a murder at Starbucks -- a multiple murder at Starbucks, and the prosecutors on this case worked with the Cold Case Squad, and it's a -- it's a really...
OLSON: They solved it.
ALKSNE: And they solved it. And it's a really tight unit. So, you know, on some level, yes, it's a Cold Case Squad and, oh, you hate that name, and on another level, maybe that's a good cooperative thing. So it's not as easy as just, "OK. We're moving"...
OLSON: It's senior people. It's people who are very senior in...
KING: OK. Before we go back to Lisa and Nancy, Mark, your turn.
GERAGOS: Well, I -- you know, this idea that somehow they're focusing on the neckties under the bed -- I think you guys have got a little bit more crime in Washington, D.C., than whether or not guys have got neckties tied under the bed. I don't believe for a second that's what they're focusing on.
They have put this into the Cold Case because everything that they've done in terms of Gary Condit has been a dry hole, and the -- the fact that it's been a dry hole means that they've got nothing else to go on and that they -- they've transferred it to where, unfortunately, it has to be, which is back in the -- back in the back of the bus, so to speak.
KING: And, Lisa, this could run on and on, couldn't it?
DEPAULO: Oh, I think so. And you know what, Mark? You are real wrong about that affidavit. That was not about the "Star" magazine. That was about getting -- you know, lining up the women and making sure they shut up and...
GERAGOS: No, Lisa. DEPAULO: Hello, Mark.
GERAGOS: Lisa, what that was -- let me just tell you what that was. That was an...
DEPAULO: I have it. I know. I know what it was.
GERAGOS: ... an affidavit -- that was an affidavit that was prepared that was in anticipation of a story that was going to come out in the tabloids, and the affidavit had attached to it a cover letter that said, "Make any adjustments you want." So...
DEPAULO: Mark...
GERAGOS: ... if that is the case and...
DEPAULO: Mark...
GERAGOS: ... if it was in anticipation of them doing the story -- just let me finish -- that isn't obstruction. It can never be obstruction...
DEPAULO: Mark...
GERAGOS: ... because this was not a government investigation.
DEPAULO: Do you realize...
OLSON: Wrong.
DEPAULO: Mark, do you realize -- do you realize that on May 5th or 6th -- well, on May 5th, the Levys called their congressman distraught, hysterical, "Help us. Our daughter is missing," and on May 5th or 6th, he was calling Anne Marie Smith to say, "Hey," you know, "I need to disappear for a while."
GERAGOS: Well, if you -- if you had checked out your facts, you'd know that Anne Marie Smith was the one who initiated the call because her roommates for 2,500 bucks...
DEPAULO: You're wrong.
GERAGOS: ... were selling story to a tabloid.
DEPAULO: You are wrong.
GERAGOS: That's exactly what happened.
DEPAULO: You are wrong. I am...
GERAGOS: That's exactly what happened.
DEPAULO: ... talking about May 5th.
GERAGOS: You can keep...
DEPAULO: I'm talking about May 5th.
GERAGOS: ... repeating that I'm wrong, but I'm telling you that was right before the story broke.
KING: OK. Let me -- all right. Let me get...
DEPAULO: The affidavit was dated June 14th not May 5th.
KING: By the way, we got this internal memo here from our group at CNN to stay away from characterizing the FBI unit that is helping the police as a Cold Case Team. Apparently, that's not accurate.
The -- the sources tell us that "the FBI has moved its part of the probe into the disappearance of Chandra Levy from its Washington field office that deals with the media investigations to a unit that specializes in cases that may take a long time to solve.
That unit is expected to take a fresh look at the investigation that has so far produced few clues. So it's not -- they don't term it a "cold case."
We'll be back with your phone calls after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Before we take some phone calls, I'm told that "CBS News With Dan Rather" did cover the story tonight. Also, Nancy Grace, can we make anything of the fact that one of Condit's brothers is a fugitive?
GRACE: Well, a lot has been made of that, and they're suggesting that Condit helped his brother, but, frankly, with a guy with a rap sheet that long, I don't think Condit would trust him to do a deal like this.
But back to being a cold file, I couldn't disagree with that more, and I'm glad you corrected that. I think this simply the police reaching out. This is a big investigation. They need help. They want help.
And I guarantee you this case is not cold. Chandra Levy talked to somebody. She said something, Larry. She was so in love, so happy to be with Condit. She said something to somebody, and they will crack.
KING: Sacramento, California, hello.
CALLER: Yes. As a public servant, doesn't Mr. Condit have a legal and moral obligation to come forward and cooperate with other governmental agencies in helping to find this young lady?
ALKSNE: Not only as a public servant but as a human being. I mean, can you imagine if someone was just missing in your neighborhood. You would be concerned and want to help, much less someone that you actually had a relationship with and that you were close to. I think, certainly, as a congressman, we forget -- what human being would want to do that? Now I know he had his career, but this is Gary Condit worried about Gary Condit to the exclusion of what most us would react when someone was missing and in danger.
KING: The question, though, was legal and moral. Is there a legal obligation to speak? No.
COULTER: No. That's -- that's why I think the press is doing such a yeoman's job on this. I mean, I think that's the reason he ultimately allowed the police to search his home. There's only so much the law can do, but I have to say media is doing a great job on getting him to do other things.
KING: Lisa, we haven't heard from you. Is the media doing a good job, do you think?
DEPAULO: Absolutely. And if it weren't for media and if it weren't for the Levy family's -- in the throes of their grief, keeping us focused on -- on this -- and you know what? Everybody has said, you know, there are a hundred thousand missing people, but guess what? They do not disappear this way.
This is extremely unusual for a woman to disappear without her ID, without any means of survival. I -- I would argue that this case deserves a great deal of attention, even if Congressman Condit were not in the picture.
GRACE: Larry, common sense. I mean, just look at it. All these theories that some serial killer came along and snatched her while she was going around the corner to the grocery store. She is in the middle of an intrigue.
The bottom -- the boiling water was about to boil over, and we are being asked to believe that a random serial killer in the midst of all this intrigue snatched her, killed her, and then so expertly hid her body. I don't buy it!
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ... Cynthia.
GERAGOS: Who's asking you to buy it?
ALKSNE: I don't -- I don't it. I mean, I -- I definitely don't buy it. The weird thing, though, is that, with all this happening, in -- your average rule of law, he's got to be involved. That makes sense on some level, but then you think, "But he's a congressman." Congressmen can't pick up their own shirts.
(LAUGHTER)
COULTER: And not only that...
ALKSNE: How are they going to get rid of a body? This guy doesn't really have his own car. But wait a second. He doesn't really have his own.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... take off his shirt. He could definitely take off his shirt, Cynthia.
ALKSNE: No, but he can't pick up his shirts. I mean, he can't...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. You got me on that one.
ALKSNE: You know -- you know what I mean, and...
KING: Merced, California, hello.
CALLER: Hello?
KING: Yes?
CALLER: My question is how can these women sit here and have Chandra Levy sound like she's a victim of Congressman Gary Condit. She's 24 years of age. She chose to have this involvement with this married man.
GERAGOS: Hallelujah. Hallelujah.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Hallelujah. A little bit of wisdom from they Central Valley.
KING: Wait. Hold on. Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Now that's the vaunted wisdom of Central Valley. You -- you've got all of these feminists that are on this panel, women who are very powerful, professional women, who are out there, you know, saying that they can do anything, and they've got this woman portrayed as just some country bumpkin. This...
GRACE: Mark...
GERAGOS: ... was an incredibly intelligent woman.
GRACE: Mark...
GERAGOS: Is an incredibly intelligent women.. Give her some credit.
OLSON: Mark, she is an intelligent woman, but she is obviously...
KING: One at a time. GERAGOS: Give her some credit.
OLSON: This is a woman -- I'm saying she's intelligent, but she was naive. This is a woman who a married man said "I love you, and in five years, I'm going to marry you, and we're going to have a baby, but if you tell anyone about this, we're done."
GERAGOS: Well, Barbara, how often -- how often do older men...
OLSON: She was naive.
GERAGOS: How often do older men leave their high school sweethearts and marry a younger woman? I mean, it's -- news flash. News flash. It happens.
GRACE: All the time.
COULTER: Could I say something to the caller? I -- I don't -- I don't think any of us have portrayed her as victim. I don't understand what that question is about. Other than the fact...
KING: She is missing.
GERAGOS: The question is...
COULTER: ... that she's missing, and that's a fact. We're discussing the facts, but, you know, up until just now in response to the question, I don't think any of us have discussed, you know, the relationship -- whether she was victim of the affair at all.
KING: Wait. Hold -- Nancy, are you saying that, or is it Lisa? Nancy?
GRACE: I'm saying, as a victims-rights advocate, I think Chandra Levy is a victim. I think that she fell prey to someone much more powerful and more cunning than she was and believed everything he said hook, line, and sinker, and she's a victim of crime, the way I see it. You can all say this is just a missing person investigation, but it is not.
KING: So the fact that she was 24 and of age is immaterial.
GERAGOS: No, you've got to be...
GRACE: In this circumstance, it is.
GERAGOS: ... 39 or 40, and you've got to have a -- you've got to have a job that meets this specification.
GRACE: Mark! This girl was an innocent.
GERAGOS: Give me a break. She's 24. She's incredibly intelligent.
GRACE: This girl was an innocent.
GERAGOS: Well, for the -- then at what age...
GRACE: She was, and you know that.
GERAGOS: At what age does she become...
GRACE: You're a defense lawyer, but this girl was innocent.
GERAGOS: At what age -- and you're -- and you're good at spinning this off to the tangent, but at what age...
GRACE: I know what I know.
GERAGOS: ... does she become...
GRACE: I know this girl did not run around. She believed this man was in love with her.
KING: Break! Break from the clinch. We'll be right back with more of Ali-Frazier after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Columbus, Georgia, hello.
CALLER: Hello.
KING: Yes?
CALLER: A couple of years ago, Anne Marie Fahey's lover was convicted of murder without her body ever being recovered. Assuming that Chandra has met with foul play, would there necessarily have to be a body recovered in this case for conviction?
GERAGOS: Absolutely.
GRACE: NO.
KING: I think, Lisa DePaulo, you broke that story, didn't you?
DEPAULO: Yes, I did. And...
KING: All right. What were...
DEPAULO: And the similarities are unbelievable. You know, a prominent -- worked for the governor of Delaware, got a lot of attention.
She left with nothing. She was last woman, by the way, to walk -- to disappear without her purse and her ID and any means of survival. They never found Anne Marie's body. But he is in jail. He is convicted.
And guess what? In the beginning of that case, everybody said the same thing to me, which is, "Tom Capano , great guy!" and that was...
(LAUGHTER)
DEPAULO: And then it was, "Well, he -- maybe he cheated on his wife but incapable of violence." The big difference...
OLSON: Of course, in that case, he used another person who finally gave evidence...
DEPAULO: Correct.
OLSON: ... and, of course, in the beginning -- you're right -- "Tom Capano was just having affair" and "How could we look"...
GRACE: That's right. He was the greatest...
OLSON: ... "at his affair"...
GRACE: ... guy in Wilmington, Delaware.
OLSON: "That's not a killer."
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: ... also not in jail. He's -- or not just in jail. Isn't he on death row?
DEPAULO: Yes, he is. And -- and...
GERAGOS: He was...
DEPAULO: And there was never a body...
KING: And the body was never found.
DEPAULO: Correct.
OLSON: But there was significant other evidence.
KING: Yeah. The...
(CROSSTALK)
DEPAULO: And -- and they said the same thing. Incapable violence, great guy, you know, pillar of the community. This man shot her, put her in a fish cooler, wrapped her with a chain, and dumped her...
COULTER: Chopped her up.
DEPAULO: ... in the ocean -- to an anchor.
GERAGOS: And, therefore, Gary Condit must be guilty because...
DEPAULO: No, Mark.
GERAGOS: ... some other guy did this?
DEPAULO: No, Mark. No, Mark. No.
GERAGOS: You know, that's just a little bit irresponsible, wouldn't you say?
KING: She just answered the question of the similarity.
DEPAULO: Can I mention the difference? Can I just...
GERAGOS: You know, it's -- it's -- yeah, it does make a little bit of difference, and one would hope that you'd have a little bit more responsibility than to say, "OK. One guy denies it. Another guy denies it." Plenty of guys have denied things and been perfectly innocent.
DEPAULO: Mark -- Mark, chill. There's a -- there's a point to this, and that is that...
GERAGOS: Which is what? I've been waiting for it.
DEPAULO: There's a point to this, which is people are not necessarily as they appear, and this is a man who spent 67 days not telling the truth about a very important part. Larry, if your good friend were missing, would you wait 67 days to reveal what you knew?
KING: No, I would not. I -- I think anyone would say that. And I'd be ticked to find out what happened to her. That's true.
Houston, Texas, hello.
CALLER: Hello. The Condits -- they later called the congressman and asked him if he had been having an affair with their daughter. At that time, I believe they knew he was having an affair. Had they been a little more forthright, do you think that he would have come forth sooner?
ALKSNE: No, I don't think it's a question of them being forthright. I think what's interesting about this is the police went to him and asked him. You know, sometimes the police ask questions when they know the answers because that's giving you a gauge of what kind of person you're dealing with. So the fact that the police came to him, and he lied about it, and everybody -- you know, you can tell that...
GERAGOS: Cynthia...
(CROSSTALK)
ALKSNE: ... rolling their eyes, and then...
GERAGOS: He did not lie.
ALKSNE: ... he comes back and lies, so they know.
GERAGOS: I'm just telling you -- I'm telling you...
ALKSNE: He was evasive. GERAGOS: ... that -- that you guys are basing this on...
GRACE: Mark...
GERAGOS: ... "Washington Post" stories. You're not asking it on any police source. If...
COULTER: Well, that's all we're talking about.
GERAGOS: ... he had -- well, all I'm telling you...
ALKSNE: Would you not agree...
GERAGOS: No, all I'm telling you is...
ALKSNE: Would you not agree he was not forthright in an investigation?
GERAGOS: If he had lied to the police, Cynthia, wouldn't you agree that he had committed a crime? Isn't that a crime in the District of Columbia?
ALKSNE: Yes, it is.
GRACE: Mark, let's be exact. He evaded the answer. He was not...
GERAGOS: Then why aren't they charging him with it?
GRACE: Hold on to your hat, Sparky, because that may be acoming.
GERAGOS: Well...
KING: We'll be back...
GERAGOS: ... I'll tell you, Blondie. I will.
KING: Hold on. We'll be back with final comments, including those of Sparky and Blondie right after this. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: You can now log on to our Web site cnn.com/larryking, get the answer to King's Quiz for tonight.
Lisa, your article comes out August 3rd.
DEPAULO: August 3rd.
KING: But you're still working it; right?
DEPAULO: Sort of.
KING: You -- are you still...
(LAUGHTER) KING: I mean, is it all done, or are you open to add...
DEPAULO: Oh, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty much...
KING: And that will be in "Talk" magazine?
DEPAULO: Correct.
KING: Things could come out in between them -- in between the time now and then, right?
DEPAULO: Yeah. I mean, the press really has done a remarkable job, and -- and it's -- you know, and so have the Levy family.
KING: Cynthia, would a prosecutor have any role at this point or not?
ALKSNE: A huge role at this point. In fact, many of the interviews are being conducted at the U.S. Attorney's office in D.C. along with the cops and the FBI.
KING: Oh. So it's not just police then, Ann?
COULTER: I did not know that pro -- the prosecutors were involved.
ALKSNE: And Anne Marie Smith was questioned by Assistant United States Attorneys and, you know, we...
COULTER: Oh, well, yeah, but that was...
(CROSSTALK)
ALKSNE: It's all -- it's all one thing. You know, the grand jury in -- in the District of Columbia is inside the United States Attorney's office, the Superior Court grand jury, so for all we know, members of the grand jury have been hearing about this case, and we just wouldn't know about it now.
KING: Now, Nancy, a good prosecutor never starts with a -- an agenda, right? He doesn't say, "I think this person did it."
GRACE: Well, you know, Larry, theoretically...
KING: I know. Mark is laughing.
GRACE: ... yes. Theoretically yes. But you know what? I've never prosecuted a case where I didn't have a gut feeling and, yes, a lot of people have said, "This doesn't rise to probable cause," but you know what? Last time I checked, two plus two still equals four, and every day, Condit acts more and more like a defendant.
KING: You -- you would -- Nancy, you would prosecute someone on a gut feeling?
GRACE: I would start off with... GERAGOS: Oh, I'm sure she's convicted people on...
GRACE: I would start off with a gut feeling, and...
GERAGOS: ... her gut feeling.
GRACE: ... and then I would gather my evidence, but I'll tell you what this doesn't add up, and his evasive actions don't add up to me. Something stinks, and it's all around him.
COULTER: But what they seem to be doing is -- is not just focusing on Condit, though he's not a suspect, and...
GRACE: You're right. You're right.
COULTER: I mean, what they're doing -- what they're -- what they're doing is -- is eliminating possibilities. I mean, they are looking at other people and other theories...
GRACE: You're right.
COULTER: ... and searching the park and talking to people in the apartment building...
GERAGOS: Could I -- could I be so bold...
COULTER: ... and what's happening is they're just eliminating all these other possibilities.
GERAGOS: Could I be so bold...
KING: Mark, you can go. Go, Mark.
GERAGOS: Could I be so bold as to suggest that what they're doing is that -- eliminating Condit as a possibility and going in these other directions because they believe that may be where it is.
COULTER: It's taking a long time to eliminate it.
GERAGOS: Well, I'll tell you something...
ALKSNE: They might. They might, and if he would take the polygraph, maybe that would happen.
GERAGOS: ... they believe -- if they believe that Condit was their lead, if they honestly believed that that was Condit, they would not have switched it over to one of the long-term or the cold case or whatever kind of politically correct name that you -- that...
KING: All right. We're out of time for tonight. I'm sure they'll be back tomorrow.
And we thank Lisa DePaulo, and we hope to be calling on her lots more. She's a welcome addition to this panel. It keeps growing and growing. Soon, we'll have a jury.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: Thanks for joining us. Stay tuned for CNN TONIGHT. I'm Larry King. For all of our guests, good night.
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