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CNN Larry King Live

America Under Attack

Aired September 11, 2001 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, America under attack. Horrible images as terrorist strike against symbols of wealth and power. The casualty count unknown. the damage unspeakeable. I'm Larry king. We will have a full hour with lots of guests. We begin with the Governor of New York, George Pataki. Governor Pataki, what can you tell us? Can you bring us up to date on statistics here? We have go through this. Firemen, policemen, people what?

GOV. GEORGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: Larry, we are just not looking at statistics yet. We are still doing everything in our power to do the searching and rescue efforts, because we hope there are still people that can be rescued. The city has the finest emergency forces anywhere in the world. We have augmented them with our national guard and state emergency forces as well. And there's an ongoing effort to try to rescue as many people as possible and to make sure we provide best possible care to those who have been injured. So the time for counting is later. The time for action is now. And that action is under way.

KING: We do know, however, that 200 firemen and 78 policemen are missing, right?

PATAKI: We do know that numbers of police and fire are missing, and it's a tribute to their heroism that they went down there and risked their lives to try to protect others and try to save other lives. Larry, this is a very dark day for America. But out of the darkness, you see the spirit and you see the hope.

I was at St. Vincent's hospital a little while ago, visiting some the injured firemen and the injured policemen. And they were asking if they could go back to try to do more, to help uncover their comrades and the people who are still at risk. The spirit is strong. We will get through this.

KING: Governor, you have been close to being inside and near this. Can you tell us what is going on?

PATAKI: Well, there is still very great risk downtown. A possible additional building collapses. So that's why we have ordered -- along with the mayor of New York City -- south of 14th street to be shut down. Right now it's simply a matter of trying to contain fires and work through the rubble. We have national guard heavy equipment, wreckers and tow trucks and others trying to help out with police and fire who are going through the rubble and trying to just find as many people that we can save and rescue and help those who need our help as possible.

At the same time we are making sure that the city and surrounding area is as secure as possible. Again, Larry, I have to tell you that the spirit of the people has been enormous. They haven't been intimidated by this horrible act of cowardly terror. I was just out on a block where for blocks people are lined up waiting to donate blood. Not cowed by this terrorism, but showing their faith in America and belief in tomorrow. And that is what we have to make sure triumphs here.

KING: Governor, how close have you gotten to the scene itself?

PATAKI: I've gotten downtown, but I haven't gotten all the way down to the towers themselves. Perhaps later on. What I've been trying to do is coordinate response and make that sure we have the best possible efforts, and I believe we do. And Larry, I also want to say, the cooperation not just of the city and the state, but the surrounding states, the federal officials have mobilized resources from around the country to help us out and they're here.

We've gotten expressions of support and condolences from around the world. And we're going to get through this. We are united as a people, we are strong as a people. And we will get through this and make America and New York even stronger.

KING: We know the military is on full alert and aircraft carriers are coming to your harbor. Is there fear of possibly more?

PATAKI: Larry I think the federal government is looking to reassure us by having this presence, and we're delighted to have that reassurance. There can never be guarantees. No one predicted this, no one anticipated or had advance warning of this attack. So you never know what tomorrow might bring.

My understanding from my communications with the president and the White House is that they're unaware of any additional specific threats. Obviously we are on the highest possible state of security and alert and will continue to be so.

KING: Where were you when you heard of the first crash?

PATAKI: I was in the city. And I got a call to turn on the television. There was a plane hit the World Trade Center. And then I saw the second one and immediately called the White House, and spoke with the president in a very short period of time and urged him to shut down the airspace around New York.

And they immediately shut down the airspace around the country. And who knows what else may have happened if the president hadn't taken that step?

KING: He was in Florida. So they patched you right through. What was his response when you got him on the phone?

PATAKI: He was very supportive, offering to do anything the federal government could do. Told us that they had gone to the highest possible alert and were undertaking all the security steps that could possibly be taken. And then immediately after that he shut down the airspace around the country, to his credit, and I'm pleased that step was taken.

KING: Will New York airports open tomorrow?

PATAKI: We're not predicting at this point. We'll stay in close touch with the federal emergency officials. They are calling the shots there, the ones who are in charge of the security analysis and they will make the determination when the New York City airports should reopen.

KING: Thank you, Governor Pataki. Thanks for giving us the time.

PATAKI: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Next we go to Washington, D.C. where James Baker, the former secretary of state is standing by. Is this -- is this, Secretary, a failure on the part of American policy?

JAMES BAKER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think it's a failure on the part of American policy, Larry. I think that there probably were some -- perhaps lapses in security. It would be well, I think for us to consider beefing up some of our intelligence capabilities, particularly our ability in the areas of human intelligence, which we have been sorts of de-emphasizing since the mid-'70s.

But I don't think it's a policy failure. And if by that, you mean that it's linked somehow to what may or may not be happening in the Middle East peace process, I would be very leery of making too direct a connection there. You know, my favorite suspect here -- and I have no inside information with respect to this -- is Osama Bin Laden. He seems to be the favorite suspect of a lot of people. And this guy has done some things in the past that didn't depend on whether or not we were making progress towards peace in the Middle East or not.

If you remember the bombings of embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't make too direct a connection to the Middle East peace process.

KING: The president said, "We will take action and see no difference between those who committed the crime and those who harbored them." That's a direct threat against anybody around this. Do you expect to see retaliatory action soon?

BAKER: I don't know how soon you will see it. I would expect to see it. We have contingency plans. We had them way back when I was dealing with these issues for the United States, and I remember well, as a matter of fact, Larry, when I was meeting with the foreign minister of Iraq in the lead-up to the Gulf War in 1991. And I warned him against using weapons of mass destruction against American forces. I said the American people will demand retribution and we have the means to exact it. And I think they took that to heart. They didn't use weapons of mass destruction, but I think the American people following the tragic events of today are going to demand retribution. And I think the United States does have the means to exact it -- and I think we will.

KING: Mr. Secretary, when you fear terrorism, as all of us have to fear it to be logical human beings, it's around us -- did you ever think of anything like this?

BAKER: Not anything of this scale. I mean, you have to really -- you have to really be amazed -- at least I'm amazed -- at the degree of success. Four airplanes were hijacked. 75 percent, three out of the four found their targets. We haven't had a hijacking in this country in over 10 years. And yet these people were successful in hijacking the aircraft. Not only hijacking them, taking control of them, flying them into their intended targets. It really is rather surprising and rather amazing.

And I'm reminded also, Larry, of the successes that American counter-terrorism and counterintelligence forces have had through the years. I remember, again, during the time that I served, any number of instances where we would have a threat and we would catch it in time and we would roll it up. We would prevent it from happening. That happened over and over and over again. It didn't happen today, quite tragically. We didn't catch this one.

KING: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Good seeing you.

BAKER: Thank you, Larry. Good to see you.

KING: Secretary James Baker, the former secretary of state. Now we go back to New York. Standing by are: Teresa Ward. She worked in the World Trade Center, in the number two World Trade Center on the 33rd floor. Bill Heitman, who worked on the the 81st floor, was also working at the time of the '93 bombing. John Ivarone, who works at the World Trade Financial Center -- that's right next door -- and Tim Cavanaugh, who works about a quarter mile away from the World Trade Center. He was on the phone to a friend who works in the World Trade Center when he was suddenly cut off.

And Rose Arce, our CNN producer in New York who's been on the scene. She's outside. There's rose, all day long, it seems, on top of this. Let's start with Teresa. Where were you? What happened?

TERESA WARD, EYEWITNESS: I was in my office, just starting my day, booting up my computer, having my coffee. And we felt the building shoulder. And at first we didn't really know what was happening, but we all sort of walked out of our offices and looked around. And as we looked out the window towards the West Side Highway, we saw nothing but paper and debris floating from the sky. It was, you know, overwhelming.

KING: Did you panic?

WARD: Actually we didn't. There were a lot of people in my office that were in the '93 bombing. So everyone just sort of decided to leave, and everybody left in an orderly fashion via the stairs. And it was very orderly. In fact, everybody was really calm. So we were fortunate in that regard.

KING: Now, is it true, Teresa, when you were outside they told you it was OK to go back in?

WARD: No. Actually what happened was we were in the stairwell, I was on the ninth floor and there was an announcement on the PA system that basically said that there was an incident in One World Trade but that Two World Trade was OK and you could return to your offices. It was OK. And at that point, a few co-workers and I jumped on the elevator and we thought for a moment about going back up, then thought better of it and decided to go down. And at that point we had no clue what was happening with One World Trade or Two World Trade. And when we got out to the street it was just pandemonium.

KING: Teresa, do you know why you didn't go back up, despite the fact the announcement said you could?

WARD: Well, you know, it just seemed like there was so much going on, and we felt that it would be better, as everyone was exiting the building already, to just gather with everybody from my firm on the concourse level. So it just seemed like the sensible thing to do at the time and in retrospect, you know, it probably saved a lot of lives.

KING: Good instinct. Bill Heitman worked in World Trade Center one -- the first building hit -- where he was working on the 81st floor. What was happening? And were you also in the '93, right, Bill?

BILL HEITMAN, EYEWITNESS: Yes, I was.

KING: What happened at the moment of impact? Where were you, what happened?

HEITMAN: At the moment of impact I was knocked out of my chair and we just briefly panicked and headed towards the middle of the floor to get away from the windows. And then we headed for the stairwell and started heading down from the 81st floor in an orderly fashion. And aside from some people that were suffering from asthma -- aside from some people suffering from asthma and some injured, it was actually well spirited going down, you know, until we started getting down into the 30s and 40s.

KING: Then what?

HEITMAN: Then the firemen started passing us and were collapsing on the stairs.

KING: The firemen were collapsing?

HEITMAN: Yes. Just from the loads they were carrying, the oxygen tanks, the hoses. It was really bad. It was tough to see these guys.

KING: Did you say to yourself, "Here we go again?" HEITMAN: Yes, I did. But at this particular point it didn't seem like it was a bombing. And after the initial crash going down, it seemed like the worst of it was over.

KING: And you did or did not know it was a plane?

HEITMAN: We had heard when we were in the stairwell probably -- it took a total of an hour for me and the people I was with to get downstairs. We had heard when we were about halfway down that a plane had -- some kind of plane had hit, but at that point we thought it was small: a helicopter, a small craft airplane.

KING: As soon as you got out what did you do? .

HEITMAN: I beg your pardon?

KING: When you got out of the building, what did you do? Did you hang around or take off?

HEITMAN: As soon as we got down the lobby level, I myself was actually surprised at the damage that there was to the concourse level of the trade center. I thought at that point the condition would look not as damaged. But as soon as we got downstairs, we were walking in ankle deep water and there seemed to be this -- an urgency to just get us out of the building, where I thought people were just going to be directed to like triage units or something.

KING: Boy.

HEITMAN: But once I stepped outside onto the street, there was something really wrong. And that's when I think the fear of the building collapsing really became apparent. And I had only been out of the building less than a minute when tower number two came down.

KING: Oh, boy. John Ivarone, you work at the World Trade Financial Center. That's next door. What did you see? Where were you?

JOHN IVARONE, EYEWITNESS: I was coming back from a coffee break. I walked under a trading desk and saw, you know, everyone watching the TV monitors, which was -- you know, I didn't know what the heck was going on. I thought the market was going to go crazy or something.

And then someone just told me that a plane crashed into the World Trade Center. It sounded like a boom ,it sounded actually like a big bomb. And I mean, everyone was just calm at first, but a couple of my traders ran by me, went immediately down the stairwell and started evacuating. I just followed them. Went down to the -- right by the seaport, I guess, the seaport area right by the World Financial Center. And you could just see it was just smoke was billowing out.

KING: The booms you felt, John, were from the second plane, right? Because they were already looking at the accident from the first plane?

IVARONE: Right. Exactly. The boom was certainly from the second plane. But I mean, it was amazing, it was -- just standing across the street, because my building is right across the street from the World Trade Center and...

KING: Boy.

IVARONE: And just watching. There was people up on the 80th floor just waving.

KING: What did you see? Did any people jump?

IVARONE: I saw 15 to 20 people jump. It was -- without a doubt it was the most -- first I saw the debris coming out and then I saw -- it was definitely bodies, the way they were falling. It was something you could never, ever imagine. Even in the movies it was -- it was the saddest thing I've ever seen in my life.

KING: Was there any fear for your building and your safety?

IVARONE: Absolutely. I mean, being right across the street, of course. I guess when something like that happens you don't start thinking about your building but we -- I mean, thank God one guy I was following just started running away and I followed him. And we got to a place in Battery Park where you can actually -- we just saw people waving, waving for like helicopters, anything and then just -- and I guess in fear of getting burned or something they just leapt.

KING: So you were an eyewitness to death?

IVARONE: Yeah.

KING: You were an eyewitness to people jumping?

IVARONE: Yes, absolutely. And I didn't realize it, until, you know getting home and watching on television what I'd really witnessed, and then that's when I -- I had...

KING: Before we talk with Tim and Rose, we understand we have on the phone with us a member of the New York City Power Rescue Team. Are you there, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am.

KING: OK. What is the name of your group? What organization is it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually we are fugitive recovery agents and we are down here offering our assistance with federal authorities. We are waiting for the coordination and then we will go in with any other rescue teams.

KING: Can you tell us where you are right now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were right down at the building assessing the damage from my team and it was a little bit smoggy, obviously. We are covered in soot right now and we're taking our break until we can coordinate what's going on. KING: What early assessment do you have?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's a mess. It's like Beirut down there. I mean, it's really a mess.

KING: Can you describe it a little more? What do you see?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of debris. A lot of debris all over the place, obviously. Chairs. We even saw airplane chairs all over the place.

KING: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Glass buildings seven, eight blocks away smashed. It's devastation, completely.

KING: And have you seen any bodies?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not yet we haven't. Again, we are waiting for everybody else. We are waiting for the coordination to get together, for the federal authorities, and also state authorities and then we will join the team then.

KING: And what's your role?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am -- actually, we are combers, really. We will go through the debris, small cracks, anything what we can do.

KING: Why do you do this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's what we do.

KING: You've worked lots of things? Nothing comparable to this, naturally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, nothing. I've never experienced something like this before.

KING: How long you think this is going to take?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A long time. A long time. There's a lot of work to be done. Lot of work to be done.

KING: Thank you very much for speaking with us. We will be in touch again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Thank you very much, sir.

KING: Thank you. Back to the New York bureau and Tim Cavanaugh, who works about a quarter mile away from the World Trade Center. As we understand it, Tim, you were on the phone?

TIM CAVANAUGH, EYEWITNESS: Actually, my friend's brother was on the line with them and they got cut off immediately. And I was on a conversation with his brother and he told me that his brother had heard the first crash and he was informing his brother of what had happened. And then all of a sudden the phone got cut off from him. And that was the last he's heard of his brother since.

I brought his picture so that maybe if there's someone out there who can see him, who has seen him, or if he's in a hospital somewhere, maybe some someone can call.

KING: Can we see it?

CAVANAUGH: Sure.

KING: Where's the picture?

CAVANAUGH: It's right here in my hand.

KING: Want to hold it up? OK. So we can get a closeup of this. And he worked in the building?

CAVANAUGH: He worked for Canner (ph) Fitzgerald on the 102nd floor. He's a guy I coach football with. I've known him my whole life. He's a great man.

KING: You probably are resorting to prayer.

CAVANAUGH: Actually, I -- I walked from my office, which is a quarter mile away, and it was desolate. It was like a nuclear bomb had gone off and there were ashes like in the street, like about a foot to six inches of ashes, if you can imagine that, walking down the street. And I walked over to Our Lady of Victory Church, which is right down the street from Wall Street.

And Wall Street -- usually they have the barricades there. And there was nothing. It was gone. And you know, I picked up a piece of paper and I saw the paper and read it. And it was from the 106th floor of the World Trade Center. And I just knew that it was -- you know, you couldn't imagine it. It was like being in downtown Beirut in America.

KING: Good grief. On the scene is Rose Arce. Rose is a CNN producer in New York, a veteran CNN producer in New York, and a very capable CNN producer. Where were you when this happened this morning, Rose? I can't hear, Rose. OK. I'm sorry, Rose. OK, we will have to check back with you, Rose. We are having difficulty.

Let's go to Jamie MCINTYRE at the Pentagon. Jamie, first, we heard the briefings earlier. What kind of shape is that building in?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pretty bad shape, Larry. It's nearly 12 hours after this plane slammed into the side of the Pentagon. The building is still burning. The firefighters say they have the blaze contained in an area, but it's still not under control. In fact, if you look right behind my head you can see some flames licking out of the roof there. That's part of the firefighting technique of trying to cut the roof open and let the fire burn through in order to put this out.

Nevertheless, the Pentagon is vowing -- Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and President Bush both saying that the building will open for business as usual tomorrow. That may be possible if they just open the other side of the building, where of course the secretary's office is, the Pentagon briefing room, the National Military Command Center, all on the other side of the building.

You know, in some ways there was a little bit of luck in today's incident in that this part of the building was under renovation. That meant that some of the new space that had just been renovated was not yet occupied, and it also had had improved fire retardant capabilities. And on the old side, over basically in this correction, that part of the building people had just moved out to get ready for the next phase of renovation. So there weren't nearly has many people as might have been in the building at that time of day.

Nevertheless, Pentagon officials expect the death toll to be high, but they are not saying publicly what they think that death toll will be, Larry.

KING: And Jamie, have you been able at all to see the aircraft?

MCINTYRE: Well, you know earlier today I got right up next to the building and I took a look at some of the pieces outside. There were only very small pieces of that American Airlines jetliner. A cockpit, a window that was all smashed, part of the fuselage that was bent and twisted. But most of the parts of the plane are still inside the building, according to people have been who have been in and seen it.

KING: Thank you, Jamie. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. We have a panel of senators joining us. And before we check with them, here is a -- just a moment of what the statement made tonight by President George Bush at the White House. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These acts of mass murder were intended to frighten our nation into chaos and retreat. But they have failed. Our country is strong. A great people has been moved to defend a great nation. Terrorist attacks can shake the foundations of our biggest buildings but they cannot touch the foundation of America. These acts shatter steel, but they cannot dent the steel of American resolve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We will be hearing in a while from a terrorist expert, an aviation expert. We'll also be hearing from the former secretary of defense, William Cohen. And we will be checking with others. But right now, a panel of four distinguished senators have joined us in Washington. They are Senator John Warner, Republican of Virginia, ranking member of the Armed Services Committee; Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts and member of the Foreign Relations Committee, including the subcommittee on international operations and terrorism; Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, member of the Select Intelligence Committee. She's chairing the Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Information. And Senator Fred Thompson, Republican of Tennessee, a member of the Select Intelligence Committee, a ranking member of Governmental Affairs.

We will start with Senator Warner. Was this a failure of information techniques tonight and today, Senator?

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: Well, Larry, I spent much of the afternoon with the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and indeed had an opportunity to talk with the president from the Pentagon. That we assess tomorrow.

Tonight we grieve for those who have lost their lives, the wounded, their families, and we look upon this as the greatest tragedy in the history of our country, but also one of its finest hours, when we've seen this country come together like never before whether it's the firemen or the rescue operators or the military all over the world. And we stand with one voice being spoken by our president, and he did very well tonight.

KING: Senator Kerry did your -- did you committee on international opertions and terrorism ever actually fear something like this?

SEN. JOHN KERRY (R), MASSACHUSETTS: Absolutely. Absolutely. But let me join John and I know all my colleagues in just expressing -- I think all of us here in Washington are feeling in very personal ways the loss of what's happened here. I know that I had one friend I know of already on that plane from Boston, and I dread the learning of perhaps others. But for thousands of families tonight, there is just a huge loss, and I think in every American there's a sense -- there's a fury, an intense, burning fury about this and a determination to do what is right about it.

We have always known this could happen. We've warned about it. We've talked about it. I regret to say, as -- I served on the Intelligence Committee up until last year. I can remember after the bombings of the embassies, after TWA 800, we went through this flurry of activity, talking about it, but not really doing hard work of responding.

We need to do that now and I'm confident that the size of this, the nature of this loss and the nature of this attack are going to motivate everybody to come together to do that. And I think that's imperative. And we also, I think, Larry -- I was heartened by the president's comments tonight. We need to make certain that those countries that sponsor terrorism, that support it, that harbor these fugitive are as much a part of the problem as those who engage in the terrorist acts themselves. And we need to make certain as a country we respond to that. Boldly and bravely -- not recklessly -- but boldly.

KING: Senator Feinstein, what are the next few days going to be like? There's going to be opinions. What's your read on what's next?

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Oh, I think there are many of us that feel this was an act of war against the United States, that its loss is going to -- our human loss is going to be extreme, that the deviltry, the cunning and the evil behind the act is extraordinary, and that we need to respond and that America needs to come together with a unity of purpose and respond. We cannot be a paper tiger. This act -- in my view it wasn't coincidence now that the World Trade Center has been the victim twice.

And I think it's a symbol of America, and it's a symbol of what we want to protect as well. And so I think tomorrow morning at 10:00 the leadership has announced that there will be a resolution on the floor of the Senate for many of us and I'm one that believes very strongly that rather than arguing over missile defense, the asymmetric threat against the United States is the most serious one. And we have had a good indication of that today.

KING: Senator Thompson, President John F, Kennedy once said, when asked about his own safety, "If someone is willing to give up their own life, that is almost impossible to protect against." What do you do when you have people like today -- obviously in numbers more than 10 over the total four planes -- who died for this? How do you counter that?

SEN. FRED THOMPSON (R), TENNESSEE: It's very difficult. I think there will always be a window of vulnerability that we will have. We're living in a different world now. I think we let our defenses down a bit after the Cold War and wanted to enjoy the peace dividend. But the fact of the matter is the world is a more dangerous place in many respects than it has been in times past.

We're now seeing the other side of the technology coin. Technology's been a wonderful thing for us, but it also allows bad people to do bad things that they couldn't do a short time ago. We saw one form of that today probably in the communications area.

There are several other threats out there though. The missile threat is one of them. It is real. The cyberterrorism that could shut down our computers and our communication networks and our transportation system and all that, is very real. We simply have to get about implementing the policies, appropriating the funds necessary to address these across the board.

KING: Senator Warner, what do you say to Americans in their grief about what they should do? You try not to let terrorism affect you, but people are not going to go easily to airports tomorrow. What do you say to them?

WARNER: Have faith in this great a country. We've survived. Although this is the worst, we've survived other crises. I see tonight in Washington among my colleagues, we're no longer Democrat, Republican. We're united as a Congress behind our President. And we're going take every step.

Number one, to find out what happened and see that it cannot be repeated. And secondly, we're a nation under the rule of law, but we will relentlessly pursue and hold accountable those who perpetrated this crime against our citizens.

KING: And when we pursue that, Senator Kerry, do we as a -- does America as a nation pursue it legally? Does it go through world courts? Or does it take off?

KERRY: There are three ways to pursue it, Larry. One is multi- laterally, which takes more time. That's the way George Bush, the father, did it in the Gulf War. You can do it bilaterally, you and another nation. You can you reach an agreement. You can work together. And you can do it unilaterally when the circumstances call for it.

I personally believe this is a circumstance because of the nature of it. As Dianne says, many have said today this is an act of war. The difficulty is, unlike Pearl Harbor, this is a stealth enemy.

Japan was identifiable. We knew where to find them ultimately, you know, after chasing around and we could identify. Here, we know pretty much. I mean, there's had a great certainty among many people about where the fingers point. But ultimately, we don't want to be a terrorist ourselves.

We have to do what we do with the knowledge and the certainty that we can determine, but we must be prepared, absolutely, to move unilaterally if we need to, to protect the honor and the civility that we stand for. And I think everybody in this country would support that based on the proper response with the proper information.

KING: Senator Feinstein, what if? What if it's Bin Laden? If it is Bin Laden, if, what do you? You go into Afghanistan? You look for him? You bomb? What do you do?

FEINSTEIN: I don't think America can be a paper tiger in this instance. This was a major attack and let's face it, there isn't going to be chaos. We're not going to bend down. We are going to rise up as one people.

And it's got to be stopped. And you have to ferret it out. I agree with what Dick Holbrooke said on this network earlier. You've got to work or our allies, the NATO allies, particularly Russia, China, and the moderate Arab countries. That's Egypt. That's Jordan. That's the Saudis.

And we have to make a statement that is so strong, that any country that harbors, that trains, that gives money to, that supports becomes an enemy of the civilized world. Because if this can happen here, it can happen in other places.

Terrorism, as our report will say very shortly, isn't a crisis. It's an ongoing condition. And we've got to change the condition. So I must say, I feel very strongly about this that the United States must respond.

Those of us that have had the classified briefings over a period of time understand some of the networks that are functioning out there even in this country, as a matter of fact. And it's not too difficult to put together two and two and I think get four.

KING: All right. Senator Thompson?

WARNER: Larry, may I just say?

KING: Quickly.

WARNER: I have to say that Putin was one of the first heads of state to call our President and the Secretary of Defense this afternoon, colleagues. I was there when he talked with the Russian Defense Minister. That's an example of the type of support we're getting. The world has got to come and help us solve this problem because terrorism is a common enemy to all of us.

KING: And Senator Thompson, if the state that harbors them is as responsible as those who commit it therefore, are those civilians in peril?

THOMPSON: Yes, they are. The powers that be in those nations have put them in peril. Saddam uses his civilians as we know. There's no way around that, but we've got to face up to it. I agree with Dianne that the greatest deterrent that we can have is the knowledge in the minds of potential terrorists around the world that there will be swift, accurate retribution. Unfortunately, there's just no way around that.

KING: Thank you. We're out of time, but we'll do a lot more with you in the nights ahead, with all four of you and others. Secretary William Cohen, the former Secretary of Defense, will be joining us. As we go to meet him, there was an extraordinary scene on the Capitol steps tonight. Look at what happened. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: As the representatives of the people, we are here to declare that our resolve has not been weakened by these horrific and cowardly acts. Congress will convene tomorrow.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: September 11, 2001. That date will inject our brains.

Joining us from Washington is Senator, former Senator, former Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, Chairman and CEO of the Cohen Group. Were you shocked or was there an expectancy of something like this?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, I, like every American, every person watching this the world over, was shocked to see the act of terror actually being perpetrated on the screen and the horror that we all witnessed.

Was I surprised? The answer is no. We have known for some time that Osama Bin Laden and other organizations have targeted the United States abroad and at home. We have formed the so-called Hart Rudman Commission several years ago. And they filed three reports, the last of which was quite prophetic, indicating that we should anticipate acts of terrorism on American soil by terrorists who may, in fact, use weapons of mass destruction and engage in nearly simultaneous types of multiple attacks. And so, it doesn't come as a surprise.

It comes as a surprise or shock to see the horror that we have witnessed today, but we have got to take more measures. I agree with much of what has been stated this evening, but we also have to take care that we don't engage in the wholesale slaughter of innocents abroad. We have to go after those and those who support those groups in terms of our responses.

KING: So we don't go in and bombs away. What do we do?

COHEN: Well, first of all, we have to make sure we have the right information. And we don't want to prejudge the matter, although those footprints of guilt would seem to lead in one very certain direction. I think we go to those who are harboring the suspected groups and serve them notice. I think President Bush did that very forcefully tonight, and that they must produce those individuals.

And certainly, they will face a number of consequences. And I don't think we have to spell them out. They will be certainly diplomatic, economic and perhaps even military action, but we should await for the President and his National Security team to deliver that particular message.

KING: You worked there for a long time. Were you a little surprised that the Pentagon wasn't better protected?

COHEN: Well, the Pentagon, as you know from its proximity to the airport, really cannot be better protected in terms of aircraft flying near the airport and passing over the Pentagon itself.

It's been one of my worst nightmares over the years to be out on the parade ground or in my office and know that at any time, a plane could through either accidentally or be directed into the Pentagon itself. There is virtually no way that one could protect the Pentagon against that type of attack, unless you banned all flights going into National itself, but even that might not be sufficient. So it's almost impossible to protect against an airplane engaged in that type of activity.

KING: What do we do about a Bin Laden? We've heard the name. We've seen him occasionally. He's obviously been involved in acts of terrorism over the year, but what do you do about someone like this?

COHEN: I think the first thing that we should resist doing, and that is focusing solely on him. To the extent that he is responsible, he will be held accountable and he will receive just punishment. But there may be other Bin Laden's out there. And they'll be more following.

What we have to do is to eliminate the climate under which they're allowed to train, to be funded, and to perpetrate these acts. Senator Warner talked about President Putin calling President Bush today. I was in Moscow a year ago when one of the bombs went off, destroying one of their buildings. I went on national television, pledging the United States to work hand in hand with the Russian people because they were being terrorized. So this is an international problem.

We have to gather our allies and say this transcends all borders. When America is wounded, the rest of the world bleeds as well. And what happens here can have a dramatic impact on the life and the lifestyles of so many the world over. So we are in this together. And every American is in this together, much like we came together after Pearl Harbor, we're coming together now as we will respond as one nation.

KING: And Mr. Secretary, it must be asked, how did they get on these airplanes?

COHEN: Well that's to be determined. Obviously, they were able to slip through the security. They may have had inside assistance. You may have had a situation in which Bin Laden or another group has been placing sleepers for a year or so or less. We don't know exactly, having assistants to allow them to get on. There are many ways in which that could have happened, but that's going to have to await the investigation by the FBI and others.

KING: Thank you very much, good friend, always good seeing him, not under these circumstances though. William Cohen, the former Secretary of Defense.

In a moment, we're going to talk with Tim O'Brien, the CNN correspondent, close friend of the Olson family, as was this program. Barbara Olson passed away today on American Air flight 77. Brian Jenkins with us in Los Angeles, the terrorism expert. And Arthur Wolk, the famed attorney who has done a lot of work involving aviation and who is, we understand, an angry man tonight.

Before we check with in with Tim and Brian and Arthur, tonight on the Capitol steps, the members if House and Senate gathered. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MEMBERS OF CONGRESS SINGING "GOD BLESS AMERICA")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Ted Olson is the Solicitor General of the United States. You know him very well from the many, many appearances he made before the United States Supreme Court and the Florida Supreme Court in the question over the election of Bush over Gore. His wife, who is Barbara Olson, who appeared on the program so many times in the last four weeks, almost every night. Barbara Olson was on American Air flight 77 that left Dulles, bound for Los Angeles and crashed into the Pentagon. I spoke to Ted Olson today briefly and it was just sad. So sad to speak someone who had just lost his wife. Another gentleman who spoke to him was a much closer friend to the Olson family. He's Tim O'Brien, CNN correspondent. He called Ted on the phone.

And we understand, Tim, that you were at their wedding?

TIM O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I was in their wedding. I was also out at his house this afternoon, along with a number of other friends. It's a very sad afternoon.

KING: Now she -- I know he told us she called him, but he went into detail with you. What happened during that call? This is the only information we have on these terrorists.

O'BRIEN: She was able to call him twice. How she could pull that off, we don't know, but she did. The phone went dead the first time after a very brief first conversation, maybe less than a minute. And she called him back. And she said to him, what do I tell the pilot to do? Vintage Barbara, ready to take charge.

She was in the back of the plane, huddled with other passengers and we're told flight personnel and presumably the pilot. She said that they were armed with knives and box cutters, paper cardboard cutters. If they were armed with other weapons, such as machine guns or any kind of gun, you'd think she might have said that first, but she said no, knives and box cutters.

I asked Ted, did she tell you how many people were there, how many hijackers were there? And Ted said, "No, but she referred to them in the plural. So there was more than one." What about nationality? Did you get any sense of that? "No." Motives? "No."

KING: They were all in the back of plane, right, Tim, the pilots and passengers were herded to the back of the 757?

O'BRIEN: That's the understanding I get from Ted, correct.

KING: So whoever took over that plane was up front. And one of them had to know how to fly it.

O'BRIEN: Presumably that's the case. But you know, that's speculation. We don't know for sure. It's conceivable there was a co-pilot, who still may have been in the cockpit. We don't know, but there were flight personnel and most of the passengers huddled in the back.

Incidentally, Barbara was not supposed to be on that flight today. Her original plan was to fly to California yesterday. Today is Ted Olson's birthday and she wanted to be with him last night. And so, that was the cost.

KING: And when she was on the phone, Ted had already known about the crashes in New York, right?

O'BRIEN: That is correct. And he did tell her about that. So she had a good idea of what she was up against. She knew about the two crashes at the World Trade Center.

KING: Tim, you stay with us. Brian Jenkins, you're an expert on terrorism. You've been involved in things like this for a long time, but nothing compared to this. Were you shocked?

BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM EXPERT: Shocked, but not surprised.

KING: Not surprised?

JENKINS: Not surprised. No, the possibility of a large-scale terrorist attack on this country is something that we have anticipated for a long time. There have been previous incidents involving multiple coordinated attacks. We have dealt with previous situations where it was either threatened or certainly a concern of the authorities that a hijacked aircraft would be crashed into a middle of a city.

KING: But from what Ms. Olson described them as having, how did they get on the plane with that?

JENKINS: Well, it depends. I mean, that's difficult to say. And we don't know. I mean, people do board aircraft with all sorts of small things.

KING: And get on.

JENKINS: And potentially get on. I suspect that's going to change now, but I mean people board aircraft with small pen knives. They board aircraft with various kinds of metal objects. It does however, raise some questions about how they were able to get on the aircraft and take control of cockpit. This is not a standard hijacking where somebody seizes a passenger hostage to fly to another city.

KING: And in fact, in three of the four operations, they succeeded.

JENKINS: They did succeed.

KING: The one that went down in Pennsylvania was obviously heading for Washington. Is that correct? Or something must have happened.

JENKINS: That's a safe presumption.

KING: Arthur Wolk, you're an expert at aviation accidents. You've been involved in the courts, many -- often dealing with this. And we understand you're quite angry at this. Why?

ARTHUR WOLK, AVIATION SAFETY & LAW EXPERT: Well, because to me it's disgusting to hear the platitudes of the politicians inside the Beltway saying that the government is in charge. I thought the government was in charge this morning.

Where was the government yesterday, five months ago or a year ago when this was unfolding? Where were the National Security Agencies that are supposed to protect us from this? Where are our allies who are supposed to be part of this anti-terrorist network?

Why are there no sky marshals on aircraft anymore? Was that a budgetary consideration of the FAA? Maybe that could've stopped it.

So it bothers me, Larry, is that we're talking about burying what may be 25,000 people. There weren't supposed to be any more Pearl Harbors. We put in place a system to prevent this from happening. This was not a minimal terrorist act. This was something that required the cooperation of many, many people. And I don't understand, and I'm sure many of our viewers don't understand, how this could possibly happen. Where was the government?

KING: All right, before I have Brian respond, Tim O'Brien, I know you're a reporter. So you're going to be objective about this. Does Mr. Wolk have a point?

O'BRIEN: I think he does have a point. How much of a point depends on perhaps where you sit. Certainly there are some security breaches here.

One of your guests pointed out that we haven't had a terrorist hijacking in 10 years. And maybe we have gotten a little lax. But we also have to recognize when people are willing to give up their lives to stage something like this, it's going to be very hard to stop under any circumstances.

KING: And Brian, what do you make of what Arthur said? I mean, obviously, there was a failure there.

JENKINS: Well, there clearly was a failure, no question about it. And we have to determine what happened with regard to intelligence, what happened with regard to security. But at the same time, we have to realize that there is an ongoing war, that there's a constant flow of information, threats, warnings, information passed on by intelligence agents. And many times, by evacuating an embassy, by issuing an alert, by raising the level of security, these attacks are thwarted. Those victories are invisible, because you can't count things that don't occur.

KING: We could have averted 14 things last month. We didn't know about it.

JENKINS: It is entirely possible. What we do see and certainly saw dramatically today, are the failures. When the intelligence fails, when the security fails, that's what we were faced with today. Can we achieve -- can we get better on security? Yes. Can we provide absolute security? Absolutely not.

KING: Arthur, you know, as I quoted earlier, if someone wants to give up their life, that's awful hard to contain, isn't it?

WOLK: Larry, I think I agree with that. I think that we are supposed to have a system in place to prevent this from happening. And you can't stop terrorism at the gate at the airport.

You stop terrorists before they enter the country. You stop them by investigating their cells when they're in the country. You avoid this by exercising as much security operations as you possibly can.

I'm no expert at security. I'm just a guy who saw it on CNN live today. And all I can tell you is that there weren't supposed to be any of these in this country. And the people who are supposed to have been in charge were asleep at the switch, in my opinion.

KING: And also, since you're an expert on pilots and things, were you surprised that whoever did that was able to commandeer these aircraft and to fly them?

WOLK: Not really, not really. Remember, we have no sky marshals on the aircraft. So we have no one armed on aircraft randomly to prevent this from happening. The door that separates the cockpit from the rest of the airplane is really just a symbol of security. It's not real security. And finally, it doesn't take someone who's a rocket scientist to fly an airplane once it's airborne and to fly it into a building. So you don't have to be a sophisticated pilot to accomplish this, sadly.

KING: All right, let me -- let's do what we haven't done yet today. And since this is a special edition of "LARRY KING LIVE," and we'll be doing this, of course, throughout the week and CNN 24 hours a day. Let's included the audience.

Knoxville, Tennessee, hello.

CALLER: Yes, sir, Mr. King, I was wondering what you be and the panel thought about the possibility of the United States Army shooting down the plane over Pennsylvania. I know the Pentagon has denied it, but if they knew that plane was heading for D.C., is it possible that they did? And if they didn't, would they have later if it had gotten farther?

KING: Yes, Tim, supposing, this is supposing, a plane's heading in. It's got passengers. It's going to go to White House or Camp David. Do you shoot it down?

O'BRIEN: If there's that threat, you may have to. But certainly, there are steps that can be taken before that threat materializes. First, you try to make contact with that plane, find out where it's going. But if it appears headed for the White House or the Pentagon or the Capitol or Camp David, and it's off-route, that may be the only alternative you have. And it would make sense.

KING: Do you agree, Brian?

JENKINS: In some cases, yes. The reality, however, in terms of major urban areas, airports are located in urban areas. A plane's take-off, it's not a long flight from Dulles to the Pentagon. It's not a long flight from some of the airports in the northeastern part of the United States from New York.

KING: Well, how about the caller though. You've got a plane. You know it's diverted. It's obviously not going to San Francisco.

JENKINS: That certainly is one of those horrible decisions that some day I suppose someone is going to have to make.

KING: St. Louis, hello.

CALLER: Hello. My question is, we seem to have become very complacent. And we're being very sophisticated and very rational about how to respond to this, however, on all of the channels, and especially on CNN, which by the way, I think's done a fabulous job, Osama Bin Laden seems to be the prime suspect here. We've heard his name for years. And he continued to operate.

And my question is, he supposedly, three weeks ago gave notice that this was going to happen. Where was everyone? Who dropped the ball? I know there's only so much you can do. And you said they might've averted 14 other incidents last month, but no one averted this incident.

KING: Tim, was that a fact? Did we know that Bin Laden had made some sort of threat three weeks ago?

O'BRIEN: There was knowledge that he made some kinds of threats, but they were general and there was nothing new about that. He's making threats all the time. I think this may underscore the point made by Senator Feinstein earlier in the show that it's not just an attack or a war that we must declare on individual terrorists, but rather on terrorism itself, where it exists. The United States and other countries should be working to eradicate it, root and branch. Or sooner or later, it may strike home, as it did today.

KING: Brien?

JENKINS: I agree that Osama Bin Laden certainly does make threats all the time. We can't shut down the country. I mean, the number of threats coming in from Osama Bin Laden, not just Osama Bin Laden, but other organizations against the United States is a continuing flow of information. There probably has not been a day in the last 10 years, when there were not terrorist threats made against the United States somewhere in the world.

WOLK: And Larry, that's just the point, you see. That's just the point. Terrorism didn't start yesterday. It didn't start last year. In fact, we both remember for the last 30 years or 40 years, we've been talking about the seriousness of terrorism. It's really about time that we get our act together, so that we don't wring our hands after the terrorist act has already occurred and people have lost their lives.

We're supposed to be able to prevent this stuff. You know, this is -- they call it the 21st century threat. Well, it may be the 21st century threat, but we have the 21st century capability to deal with this threat.

KING: Are you saying, Arthur, every flight in America should have secret people on board watching the flight, that it should be treated as El Al treats every flight?

WOLF: If that's what it takes, then that's what we have to do. KING: Indianapolis, hello.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry.

KING: Hi.

CALLER: Like many Americans, I watched in horror from work today, all day long. My question -- actually, the question I was asked by my 13-year-old when she got home from school, is this going to change our entire way of living? Not in the sense of being afraid, but what about fuel prices? Today I went to work, gas was $1.62. I come out of work, it's $3 and $4 a gallon.

KING: Really?

CALLER: What about our economy?

KING: Tim, what do you think the most stark changes will be?

O'BRIEN: I'm less worried about fuel prices than civil liberties, which may be sacrificed in the aftermath of this. And that may have to be the case. A great Supreme Court justice once said the bill of rights is not a suicide pact. We're going to have to take steps to protect ourselves. And some of those steps we may find repugnant today, but they may become necessary. I think that should be of concern to everybody.

KING: Brian?

JENKINS: Well, the fact is that we have found in other places where terrorist campaigns have been waged, life does go on.

KING: But it changes doesn't it?

JENKINS: It does change in a way. Where we will see...

KING: Or do we get complacent?

JENKINS: If nothing happens for years and years, then inevitably, we will get complacent again. However, this episode, the magnitude of this, is going to leave a deep scar on the psyche of the American people.

Now that can turn into the kind of resolve, the kind of determination that the previous guests have been talking about. But it also can make us, in some cases, a more callous, harder edged people. We are where the United States probably was on now December 8 or 9, 1941. This generation, which felt so safe, has never experienced anything like this. This is greater probably in casualties I suspect than the London Blitz.

KING: And Arthur Wolk, do you now want massive lines at airports? Do you want intensive security? Do you want people to get to the airport three hours before a flight?

WOLK: No, on the contrary, I think that the system we have in place needs to be made better. I think we need sky marshals on aircraft. But I think the people who are responsible for our security, both domestically and internationally, have to get down to work. That's really the problem.

KING: Tim O'Brien, we begin this segment. And by the way, CNN, of course, will be on top of this 24 hours a day and we'll have more special guests tomorrow night as well here on LARRY KING LIVE. But Tim, I want to leave on Barbara. I understand Rudy Giuliani is in New York.

Rudy?

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: ... obviously do it. The upper part of Manhattan will be open. But if tomorrow is a day in which you want to stay home and stay with your family, and give comfort and support maybe to other people that have been the affected by this, it would a good day to do that.

Yes, the point that Richie Shearer makes is we -- people are wonderful. And I mean this in the best sense of word. We've has thousands and thousands of people that've come to help us. When I was down at the site near the World Trade Center, I met a lot of the National Guards people that the governor has sent, really wonderful young men and women. We have enough volunteers now. You know, we have more volunteers, frankly, than we need at this point.

And what we need to do is to focus the efforts that a professionals that are there in being able to do the recovery, and try to save as many lives as we can and restore services as quickly as possible. We may be asking for more volunteers tomorrow and the next day and the day after, but right now we don't need anymore volunteers.

QUESTION: Mr. Mayor, is there still hope that there are people who are alive and well?

GIULIANI: Yes, there's hope. There's hope that there will be -- there are people that are still alive.

QUESTION: How is the rescue effort hampered by darkness?

GIULIANI: We moved a lot of lights in. So that the area is being lit now. So that I don't think the rescue effort is going to be hampered by this darkness. The rescue effort is hampered by the fact that there's still fire there. There are still unsound structures. And it's still dangerous, although the rescue effort is now taking place.

But if you're asking me, is it hampered? It's hampered because of the conditions, not because of the night time.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) long discussion of heavy bulldozers and other heavy construction equipment making its way down to lower Manhattan. What is that going to be used for? GIULIANI: That's going to be used to move debris out of the way so that the emergency vehicles can get in and out quickly, so that we can get the ambulances in, in a more expeditious fashion than we have been able to do.

And I want to thank the deputy mayor Rudy Washington, who has spent most of the day coordinating, getting all that emergency equipment in the right place ready to move. If you go along Houston street you will see hundreds and hundreds of pieces of equipment that are lined up to move in and take debris out. And I think that is probably what you observed.

QUESTION: Are you concerned about the city tonight in light of all the things that have happened in the daylight hours today?

GIULIANI: Am I concerned from the point of view of the actions and activities of the people of the city? The police department is out in large numbers. Do you want to explain the force that you have out there, and no, I am not concerned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are pretty much out in full force this evening. Southern Manhattan as you know, we are primarily concentrating on the rescue efforts. The rest of the city is basically -- some of the entry points are the shut down. The tunnels are shut down. As of midnight, there will be no more traffic coming into Southern Manhattan, from 14th Street, we are going to the shut that down.

I think the city is secure. We are going to continue to do what we are doing in the rescue effort and just hope for the best.

QUESTION: Has there been any reports of lawlessness or looting?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not. There has been no reports of looting or any other problems out of ordinary. As I said, the boroughs are working pretty normally. So far so good.

QUESTION: Mayor, did you see the president's comments tonight?

GIULIANI: No, I spoke to him earlier today. I only heard the very end of his comments because I was coming back from the World Trade Center. QUESTION: He said thousands have died.

GIULIANI: I don't know the numbers at this point. I have -- that may very well be the case. At this point, -- we are still in the efforts of trying to recover people. I don't know the numbers yet. As I said, the numbers are going to be very, very high. Just if you think of the number of people in the building at the time.

We have been spending time with the medical examiner who, by the way, was injured himself, and so, Dr. Hursh (ph) was injured and had to be treated. But he organized his office and they are ready to deal with thousands and thousands of bodies if they have to and we will give them the support and help to do that. QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

GIULIANI: He was down there, yes. He got injured. I mean, he is OK, but he is obviously, he was hurt, beaten up pretty badly. His body hurts.

QUESTION: He was beaten up?

GIULIANI: Well, he got hit with degree. No, no one beat him up. He described it that way. He said got pretty beaten up and what happened was he got hit with debris.

QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) what the radius of damage was like, what blocks were involved and how much debris had fallen?

GIULIANI: Yes, if you go down there now, last time I saw it was I leaving this morning. It was horrendous. I mean, it's filled with debris, it's filled with dust. It's going to be a heck of a cleanup effort.

QUESTION: How far down Battery Park, was that effected?

GIULIANI: The power is out in the lower part of Manhattan on the west side. So there is no power at this point. That's why we had bring in the lights to light up the area to do the rescue effort. People that live at Battery Park City have been evacuated. They were taken to New Jersey. It will take a while for it to come back.

The east side of Downtown Manhattan has power. And exactly where the demarcation line is, I'm not sure. But over by One Police Plaza going east, there is power. And I believe there is power at City Hall.

QUESTION: What are your plans for the rest of the night, for the next 12 hours and will you all still be...

GIULIANI: We just had a long meeting with all the agencies to make sure they have support that they need. They will all reassemble here at eight, 9:00 tomorrow morning and some of the critical people will stay here throughout the night and we will have representatives here and I will be here for a while longer.

QUESTION: Are you concerned about asbestos contamination?

GIULIANI: The Health Department has done tests and at this point it is not a concern. So far, all the tests we have done do not show undue amounts of asbestos or any particular chemical agent that you have to be concerned about. The accumulation of it, for people that are down there, can become very, very irritating. And there were a lot of people whose eyes have been burning, but I don't think there is any chemical agent we have to worry about at this point.

QUESTION: Any idea how many police officers and firefighters are missing?

GIULIANI: Yes, we have idea of how many are missing. QUESTION: Can you tell us that?

GIULIANI: It's a lot. It's -- it's a lot. A lot of firefighters and a lot of police officers.

QUESTION: Two hundred?

GIULIANI: I really don't want to get into a numbers game until we know. It's a lot.

QUESTION: There were also reports that were some top brass in both departments who are missing.

GIULIANI: Yes, we lost the deputy chief of the fire department and the chief of the department.

QUESTION: Chief of the fire department?

GIULIANI: The chief of the fire department. The first deputy commissioner. Dependent commissioner Feehan. Chief Ganci, Father Judge, and Ray Downey, who I just gave a party for at Gracie Mansion for years of service to the fire department who led our team in the Oklahoma City bombing rescue. We've also lost him.

QUESTION: It must be very difficult for you.

GIULIANI: It is very difficult, not just for me but for the fire commissioner and some very other very close friends that are missing right now.

QUESTION: Have you had to speak to their families?

GIULIANI: I haven't been able to speak to their families yet.

QUESTION: Mr. Mayor, advice to New Yorkers that are concerned about going to work and things like that.

GIULIANI: The very best thing would be to stay home tomorrow. If you have to come to work and you work north of 14th Street, then, you can come to work if it's critical. If it's important and it's critical then you can come to work. But if you can stay home tomorrow you are going to make things easier on yourself and easier in the city if you stay home.

The city is not officially closed. Manhattan is not officially closed north of 14th Street. But we are advising people, if you can stay home it would be better. Outside of Manhattan you can go to work and do all the things you would normally do. There's no particular reason to be constricted in activities there. But if you can stay out of the city that would be good.

QUESTION: Any idea when the airports will be open?

GIULIANI: I believe not before 2:00 tomorrow. But that was the report we had a while earlier, so at the least closed until then. QUESTION: Arab-Americans repeat this is a statement condemning the attack and asking for Americans and New Yorkers to withhold judgment until after an investigation has been completed. But there is all sorts of stories about the fact that Muslim communities here in New York will be targeted for harassment both by law enforcement officials, and by community members because of the nature of the attack.

GIULIANI: Just the opposite. They will receive extra protection. That's the point of what I was saying earlier. Nobody should be engage in group blame. The reality is whoever is responsible for this, law enforcement will figure that out. United States government will figure it out. And the retaliation will be, I'm sure, very, very strong and make an example out of those people. But nobody should try to make that determination on their own.

Nobody should blame any group of people or any nationality or any ethnic group. The particular individuals who are responsible and the groups responsible, that's up to law enforcement and it is up to United States government to figure out. And citizens of New York should, even if they have anger, which is understandable and very, very strong emotions about this, it is not their place to get involved in this. Then just participating in the kind of activity we just witnessed. And New Yorkers are not like that. We're sensitive to that. The police department will have special patrols in those areas in the city and anybody who tries to do anything like that will be arrested.

QUESTION: Mr. Mayor, is there anything you can say to put to rest the fears people have?

GIULIANI: Everything is being done to try to make the city as secure as possible. The president, the FBI, federal government, the state, the governor, the New York City Police Department, law enforcement authorities. Everything is being done that can be done, and people should -- people tonight should say a prayer for the people that we've lost and be grateful that we're all here.

And tomorrow, you know, tomorrow, New York is going to be here and we're going to be rebuild and we're going to be stronger than we were before.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last question.

QUESTION: Police Commissioner Kerik, did you lose (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in your department?

BERNARD KERIK, NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: No. Not to my knowledge. Not at this point. We have suffered losses. There was a contingent of cops that was with the mayor and I and Chief Ganci and First Deputy Feehan. The mayor and I left them. We were gone about 10 minutes when the -- that portion of the building fell. And I had a number of people there. We haven't found them yet.

So I don't know the numbers. I don't know yet.

GIULIANI: We're still hopeful that we're going to find people...

KERIK: And we do not...

GIULIANI: We have not -- we have not given up hope that we're going to be able to find some people.

KERIK: We do know there are people in the building that are alive. We know that for a fact.

QUESTION: How do you know?

KERIK: I can't get into it right now, but we do know there are people in the building that are alive and we're making every effort to get to them.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) police officers (OFF-MIKE)?

KERIK: Excuse me?

QUESTION: Are those police officers?

KERIK: There are some police officers, yes.

QUESTION: How many (OFF-MIKE)?

QUESTION: Which building are they in?

KERIK: Two that we know of.

QUESTION: How many? Two?

KERIK: Two.

QUESTION: Do you know which building they're in?

KERIK: Can't say right now.

QUESTION: Have police officers been pulled from the rubble already alive?

KERIK: Yes, there are a number of people that were taken to the hospitals.

QUESTION: Can people be heard inside the rubble? Is that how you know? Can people be heard?

KERIK: I can't get into it right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

GIULIANI: We have -- we have a group of shelters that are available in Manhattan. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) High School, Seward Park High School, Washington Irving High School, the High School of Fashion Industry, Chelsea High School, Norman Thomas. The City School, JF-22, IF-131, comprehensive day and night. They're all opened for people that may need shelter tonight, and we'll put out this list as well as Curtis High School on Staten Island and Westinghouse High School in Brooklyn.

So we'll put out this list, and these shelters are all available to people who may be displaced.

Thank you.

KING: That was Mayor Rudy Giuliani in a late-evening press conference in New York discussing the events of the day and the precautions taken by the city. This is the end of LARRY KING LIVE, but I did want to say a world and hold Tim O'Brien over, too, about Barbara Olson.

Barbara appeared on this show many times, as you know. Sometimes her opinions could be infuriating, but you could not love her. You could not, not love her. She was just -- Barbara was a doll. Do you agree, Tim?

Is Tim O'Brien there? Wouldn't you agree that she was a special lady?

Oh, I'm sorry. Tim is not there. I thought he had stayed over.

Anyway, she was a special lady. We will all miss her. I can't imagine doing one of our panel debates and not having Barbara Olson. And to her wonderful husband, Ted, the condolences of all of us here at CNN.

We'll be back tomorrow night. Stay tuned for a CNN special report, "America Under Attack."

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