Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Larry King Live

America's New War: Responding to Terrorism

Aired October 01, 2001 - 21:00   ET



GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The evildoers like to hit and then they try to hide. And slowly but surely we are going to make sure they have to place to hide.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight President Bush claims progress on the war on terrorism and stresses it is a fight on many fronts. Meantime the U.S. military says farewell to the retiring chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But is General Hugh Shelton's service to the nation done? We will talk with him right here in Washington.

Also with us in D.C., Prince Bandar Bin Sultan Bin Abdul Aziz, Saudi Arabia's Ambassador to the United States, and former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole joined who has joined with his former rival Bill Clinton to raise scholarships for the families of those killed on September 11.

Plus we will hear from a woman whose fight against Taliban repression makes it too dangerous to show her face. And then we will close in New York with John Lennon's widow, Yoko, who thinks her late husband's words and music are more timely than ever. It is all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Welcome to another edition of LARRY KING LIVE. We are in Washington, D.C. tonight and tomorrow, then in New York the rest of the week. Here are tonight's headlines: The Bush Administration begins sharing evidence linking bin Laden to the attacks. The USS Kitty Hawk deports the port near Tokyo, headed out to support military response to attacks.

President Bush is signing off on a plan to reopen Washington's National Reagan airport. More than 3,400 reservists and National Guard members, more from Army units called to active duty Monday. And New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani addressed the U.N.

We begin with General Hugh Shelton who retired as chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Does it feel funny to be out?

RET. GEN. HUGH SHELTON, FORMER CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Thanks, Larry. It does feel different. And, it has been a great humbling and I have been very honored to have the opportunity to serve, and to lead and be the representative of our great soldiers, sailors, airman and Marines here in Washington, and it has been the greatest honor of my life.

KING: Is it a time when you say to yourself, at all, I wish I wasn't retiring? In view of the events?

SHELTON: Well, I used the analogy of a football player, a quarterback on a world class team, is -- he is in the first quarter, the team trailing by 6 points, he knows he has got a great team. He knows he can win. But the coach sends a runner out and says, your eligibility has just expired.

But as I look over at the at the bench I see a couple of great all Americans over on the bench getting ready to come in. One is General Dick Myers, a great warrior, a visionary, a great leader. So I feel very good. Dick will lead the team to victory and he will be backed up by the other great general, General Charlie Holland who leads our special operations commands. We've got a tremendous team.

KING: And how about the word today that President Bush will name Retired Army General Wayne Downing to a post of deputy national security adviser.

SHELTON: Wayne Downing is also a great leader, has served our national very well and I think it is great that he is coming back to join a very capable administration already of dealing with this problem and it would just strengthen that team.

KING: So you say you are leaving content that there is a good team behind you?

SHELTON: Very content. There is a great team, President Bush, the national security team is very, very strong. And they have all the tools we need to win in this war.

KING: You were in the air when this happened, right?

SHELTON: I was. I was en route to a NATO meeting over in Europe. We were about two hours out of Maryland, out of Washington when it occurred and it took us about another two hours to finally get the plane turned around come back into the United States.

KING: What were you thinking up there?

SHELTON: Well, I was thinking this is a big one. It is changing the face of terrorism. It is basically bringing it to the United States, to our great citizens. It is -- we know terrorists are barbaric, and murderers that attack innocent civilians, as they did in this case.

KING: So, you knew right away what was -- something...

SHELTON: There was no doubt in my mind. When I heard the second plane had hit, I knew that wasn't an air traffic control problem or a just a pilot problem. KING: Where -- did you -- did you fly over -- flying back, did you fly over New York?

SHELTON: We did. We came back right over the World Trade Center, and could see, even from that altitude the devastation, the smoke that was coming up. It was obvious it was going to be horrible.

KING: What's the military's role in a war on terrorism?

SHELTON: Well, you know the United States has a lot of tools in its kit bag to deal with this issue -- diplomatic, economic, political, and of course, the hammer in the kit bag is the military. And, I think the great thing about the way that we are approaching this particular challenge is that we are using all the tools right now, all for those that I mentioned, and that is where it is going to take, along with it being a multi, a international coalition that will pull together, because this is a very dispersed type of operation.

KING: It won't work without other people.

SHELTON: It will not work. It takes this international effort to defeat terrorism. And I'm very glad to see that is the developing and developing rapidly.

KING: Did you not in September, right before this, make an appearance before Congress in which you talked about readiness and said we were a little short?

SHELTON: Well, I did, but I also said that our first to fight, our forward deployed forces are trained and ready to go. Our special operations troops are in particular, are very trained -- trained to a very high state. Those are the forces that we would use initially in this particular campaign, but I also said we need additional funding for those second and third tier type units, also for recapitalizing the force, for modernizing it and to fix the infrastructure.

KING: You think we are going to increase our special operations units?

SHELTON: We have a great capability in our special operations right now. Whether or not you could actually increase the size of the force is something that will have to be determined. The standards to get in are very high. We don't want to lower those standards. The first truth for special operations is that quality is more important than quantity.

KING: Did you feel personal, when it hit the Pentagon?

SHELTON: I first of all, felt a great sense of loss, a sense of condolence for the friends that I had that were killed in that, for the loved ones.

KING: You lost people you know?

SHELTON: Very closely, including my next-door neighbor, Lieutenant General Tim Ault (ph), and a lot of other soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and civilians that were killed in that attack. So, the first thing was a feeling of loss, and a feeling of condolence for their loved ones.

The second one was a resolve, a desire to take justice to the murderers that did this to the people that were there.

KING: So there was anger.

SHELTON: There was anger, there still is. It always has been anger against terrorists, because they are barbaric and they do carry out murderous acts against innocent civilians in many cases as we saw in the World Trade Center.

KING: Could you order a shooting down of a commercial aircraft? It would be you doing it, I mean the former "you."

SHELTON: Larry we -- that is a very serious issue. We -- the rules of engagement, which is what we call the rules that our pilots go by, and the chain of command, which goes from the individual pilots all the way to our commander in chief, President Bush, are very carefully thought through, and laid out.

And we are satisfied that we have the decision at the appropriate level to take the action that would be necessary, to preserve the preponderance of life.

KING: But it would be hard, wouldn't it?

SHELTON: It would be very hard but, the other thing is, is that I feel very confident in the individual pilots. They are tremendous individuals. They are individuals that have sworn to protect and defend our very citizens. That is why we served and so I feel that we have got the right controls in place. I feel very confident that Americans flying in the air are safe, and that only under the most dire of circumstances would our pilots even request permission to do that.

KING: You could walk from the Pentagon to Reagan National. An announcement is going to be made tomorrow. We hear that they are going reopen it. Good idea?

SHELTON: There are a lot of things that have to be considered in National. The Military aspect of it is only one of them. I'm confident that President Bush will have all of those things laid out for him before he makes the decision.

KING: We will be right back with more General Hugh Shelton. They Prince Ban Dare and Bob Dole.

Tomorrow on LARRY KING LIVE here in Washington, First Lady Laura Bush, the Attorney General John Ashcroft. We'll be right back.


DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Two weeks ago, President Bush had a message for America's armed forces. He said, very simply, be ready. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud. America's armed forces are ready, and we are ready in no small part because Hugh Shelton has made readiness his first priority.



KING: There is, General Shelton, a lot of fear going on in America: people buying antibiotics in droves. There's one, Cipro, that -- I talked to two druggists today; you can't hold them -- for anthrax.

What do you make of this? Is it smart to do this? Are we overreacting, what?

SHELTON: I think that the American people should rest assured and be assured that every federal agency that has a role to play in this terrorism is working overtime. They are taking every necessary action to protect our great citizens. The military certainly falls into that category.

KING: But should we protect ourselves as well?

SHELTON: Well, I -- I don't think there's anything at all wrong with taking preventative measures. However, I do believe that the forces that are in play right now make the likelihood of some type of an attack of that nature less likely than it would be...

KING: Really?

SHELTON: ... under other circumstances.

KING: But it's the front cover of both national magazines this week, the terror from biotic and chemical weapons. And you're saying that we can pretty well-assured that we have the setup to prevent that.

SHELTON: No, I didn't -- I didn't say we could be assured, Larry. What I meant there is that we have the best defense against this is a good offense. We have a good offense going right now, in that the antennas are up, our people are working overtime. I say "our people": our federal agencies in this regard. And that I'm confident that the way that you can stop this and make Americans the most protected for this is to take it to the terrorist groups.

KING: Do we have to at times, general, play ball with the bad guys? We have that Leahy Amendment, which I think it doesn't allow U.S. military assistance to foreign military units that violate human rights. Do we have to bend that?

SHELTON: I believe that this is a different war than America has ever fought in the past. It is a nonconventional war. It means that you've got to use every tool you've got available to you, and occasionally some of the -- some of the nations that you will have to -- that will be partners in this would probably not be in terms of passing a pure human rights check, be -- have everything going for them that you would like to have.

But again, we, I think, over the years have set the example for a lot of nation that may not have had the same values, the same type of coming out of the same culture that we as Americans have and enjoy. But we can be an example, a role model to them. And perhaps that's the approach we should be taking, and also take the assistance that they will provide in what is a very complicated and must be a sustained campaign against these terrorists.

KING: September 11, you were shocked and they surprised us. So what worries you now? I mean, you can't be 100 percent confident of everything. That would be pollyannish in this world. What worries you?

SHELTON: Well, I think that one of the things that we have been concerned about for quite some time and is why we have devoted a lot of attention to it for the last couple of years is in fact, as we talked about earlier, weapons of mass destruction, biological, chemical or even potentially a small-scale nuclear device. Those are the things that in the wrong hands -- and certainly, in our war on terrorism we also must attack proliferation, and those nations that proliferate with chemical, biological and nuclear-type devices, because that can cause the most catastrophic results. And that is what I know that our attention is on right now, to a very high degree to try to make sure that we can in fact, wherever possible, pre-empt any movement in that direction.

KING: Do you have any worry about Americans flying commercially?

SHELTON: I do not. I have no concern right now. Of course, we always have to be concerned about hijacking, but the measures that are in place right now, I would say that probably the airways are as safe as they have been in a good number of years.

KING: They gave an unusual button out at the general's retirement. I want to show it to you. It says: "Free-falling all the way to the top: General Hugh Shelton, 38 years of service, 1963 to October 1st, 2001." You first saw military action in Vietnam.

You jumped out of airplanes?

SHELTON: I jumped out of perfectly good airplanes and it's a great thrill, and it allows me to share in the dangers that the great men -- our great men and women in uniform share in on a regular basis.

KING: When did you last jump?

SHELTON: It was about 2 weeks ago, I believe, two or three weeks ago.

KING: You OK, general?

SHELTON: I'm great. It was a wonderful experience.

KING: Why do you want to -- why do you jump out of airplanes?

SHELTON: Well, I enjoy sharing in the dangers that we ask our men and women in uniform to share in (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KING: Were you a paratrooper?

SHELTON: I was, somewhere in the neighborhood of about 300 jumps.

KING: Wow! So were you always convinced it was going to open?

SHELTON: I was always convinced. I had great, great faith...

KING: And obviously it always did.

SHELTON: It always did.

KING: Or we would not be doing this show.

SHELTON: Exactly.

KING: What are you going to do now?

SHELTON: Well, it has been rather hectic since the 11th of September, and even before then it was quite busy. And so I'm still giving some thought. I will transition, hopefully, into the corporate world. And I look forward to getting involved in several other areas that I have a great interest in.

KING: You've been military all your life.

SHELTON: I have been for most of my adult life.

KING: Was your goal early on to be a four-star general?

SHELTON: My goal early on was to make first lieutenant. And...

KING: That was your goal?

SHELTON: My goal was to make first lieutenant. I never spent a lot of time worrying about what came after that. I always concentrated on doing the very best that I could in the job and the duties that I was assigned.

KING: Do you remember why you wanted to be a paratrooper?

SHELTON: I do. I had seen the films out of World War II, the great 82nd Airborne, 101st, and all of those of you in the greatest generation and the service that you had provided. And I said that looks like something I'd like to do. It was a goal I established and accomplished early on, and loved it.

KING: It's an honor having you with us.

SHELTON: Thank you very much, Larry.

KING: Look forward to many visits.

SHELTON: Thanks very much, Larry. Thank you. KING: General Hugh Shelton, you deserve a grand retirement.

SHELTON: Thanks, sir.

KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) positive we'll call on you. So will we.

SHELTON: Thank you. Thank you.

KING: General Hugh Shelton. When we come back, Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz, ambassador of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the United States. He's next. Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE -- good to see him again -- Prince Bandar, the ambassador of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the United States. When he comes, he flies his own plane. He's a pilot of longstanding. Thank you very much, Prince Bandar.

What is -- what is -- what's the role of your country in all of this? How do you see it?

PRINCE BANDAR BIN SULTAN, SAUDI ARABIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Larry, first, we feel what happened to the United States -- the tragedy and the cowardly attack on the United States -- was not against the United States at all. It's really against all civilized people in the world. And the same group that's been behind this attack was also attacking our interests, too.

So our role is to stand solid and shoulder-to-shoulder with our friends, people of the United States of America. In 1990, when we needed your help, you came through for us, and it's our turn now to stand up with you.

KING: Does it sadden you or how do you explain that many of the perpetrators of the 19 were Saudi Arabian?

PRINCE BANDAR: Well, it broke my heart when I found that there are some Saudis with them. I must say that we now are sure that at least half of what we thought, who we thought were Saudis are actually not. Stolen passports, it is stolen identities.

But this shows you the evilness of the perpetrators of this cowardly attack. Part of their plan was to split Saudi Arabia and America and put the signature toward it. So yes, but we have -- every religion, every country, every race -- have mostly good people, and we have the oddballs.

KING: How far now -- there are conflicting reports -- are you willing to give the United States an air base in your country or not?

PRINCE BANDAR: I -- this question I have been asked many times.

KING: And I keep reading different reports in the paper.

PRINCE BANDAR: Correct. I think what counts right now is two things. One, we are standing shoulder-to-shoulder. There is -- we see eye-to-eye what needs to be done together, and we support what you're doing.

Second, we have not been asked to use Saudi air bases. Therefore the question is moot.

KING: Well, but hypothetically, if asked...

PRINCE BANDAR: But you know, in my job I don't answer hypothetical questions. But...

KING: But if you're standing shoulder-to-shoulder and you're with us all the way...

PRINCE BANDAR: Absolutely.

KING: .. it would seem logical that you would.

PRINCE BANDAR: You're right. You're right, Larry. And I think your answering your own question.

KING: In other words, it answers itself.

PRINCE BANDAR: That answers itself, obviously. But this is a very different war. This is not the Desert Storm/Desert Shield. We had an enemy. We had an occupation. We had a target. They were armies, tanks, airplanes. We went and got them out.

Right now, this is an unconventional threat and will be met with unconventional means. There are four facets to this fight that we are all together in: political, financial, intelligence, and ironically enough the military is the smallest aspect of this.

KING: Smallest?

PRINCE BANDAR: Smallest, in my judgment. And I must tell you President Bush has done a marvelous job.

Imagine, within two weeks, he managed through a sound, steady foreign policy to galvanize 100 countries with you in a coalition. If you remember the old days in 1990, it took us three months to get (UNINTELLIGIBLE) countries.

So I think the president is going the right direction. You have the United Nations behind you. You have -- the Security Council came up with two resolutions supporting what you're trying to do.

I think we should concentrate on the bad guys now rather than the nuances between the lines.

KING: Would your country have a difficult time if the United States tried to take out the Taliban?

PRINCE BANDAR: Our position on this issue was we are with you to get to the perpetrators of this cowardly attack, find and who supports them, and who shelters them. That is -- and we have no reservation on that.

As far as Taliban is concerned, I think the loudest answer I can give you is we broke the diplomatic relationship with them, because we do not approve of their behavior sheltering such terrorists.

KING: There is a lot of sentiment in the Arab world that maybe because the peace never came about, the Israel peace with the Palestinians, led to some of this. Do you think that's true?

PRINCE BANDAR: As a cause of it, I don't think so. Those people hated not just the United States. People in America ask, "Why do they hate us?" The truth of the matter, they hate you, they hate us, they hate the rest of the civilized world.

Our religious people have condemned them and have issued a statement that those cannot be Muslims nor their behavior is Muslim.

Any time you commit aggression and terrorism against civilians, regardless of who, that is unacceptable.

So in my judgment, those people, with what they have done, just cannot be acceptable to any civilized...

KING: Isn't hate stupid? Does Saudi Arabia hate Israel?

PRINCE BANDAR: I don't hate anybody to be honest with you. I hate wrong. And some people, somebody would do wrong and you hate it. And some -- the same person might do something right and we do not hate it.

You asked about Israel. It is -- it is -- it has influenced the emotions in the region, but it's not the cause for this attack. Nobody should use this as an excuse.

But we have seen through the last decade, when the peace process is going, when there are agreements being signed -- Madrid, Oslo, Washington agreement, the Arab agreement -- the sentiments of the people goes, that tension goes down. When the reverse, when there is no movement for peace, we have boiling sentiment.

So I cannot tell you it does not affect the sentiment or the reactions...

KING: But not the cause.

PRINCE BANDAR: But it cannot be -- you cannot justify killing innocent people for any reason.

KING: Prince Bandar, do you know the bin Laden family?

PRINCE BANDAR: I do very well.

KING: What are they like?

PRINCE BANDAR: They're really lovely human beings. He is the only one. I never -- I don't know him well. I met him only once. The rest of them are well-educated, successful businessmen, involved in a lot of charities. It is -- it is tragic. I feel pain for them, because he's caused them a lot of pain.

KING: What was the circumstance under which you met him?

PRINCE BANDAR: This is ironic. In the mid-'80s, if you remember, we and the United -- Saudi Arabia and the United States were supporting the Mujahideen to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets. He came to thank me for my efforts to bring the Americans, our friends, to help us against the atheists, he said the communists.

Isn't it ironic?

KING: How ironic. In other words, he came to thank you for helping bring America to help him.


KING: And now he may be responsible for bombing Americans.

PRINCE BANDAR: Absolutely.

KING: What did you make of him he when you met him?

PRINCE BANDAR: I was not impressed, to be honest with you.

KING: Not impressed?

PRINCE BANDAR: No, he was -- I thought he was simple and very quiet guy. But I don't think he has the capacity to do what he has done now. I think there are people around him who are the brains...

KING: Oh, really?

PRINCE BANDAR: Absolutely.

KING: He's just sort of the leader type?

PRINCE BANDAR: I think he's the charismatic leader, being used for that.

KING: Are the people in your country fearful? Are they worried? There's worry all over America. About anything? About something happening there?

PRINCE BANDAR: No, we believe -- we in the Middle East and we Muslims particularly believe that what's written is written, and your day, when it comes, nothing can stop it. And we believe in God.

No, we are not fearful, but we are conscious. We have tasted some of this terrorism against us by the same groups, and they are misguided. And you know what? If you brought in a room everybody who is anti-Islam, and hates Islam and Muslims, and asks them to do -- to come up with an idea that would be the worst thing you can do to Islam, they couldn't have done what those people did. How dare they say they are Muslims or they're fighting for God? They are not. They are not. They hate Islam. They hate Islam. They hate Judaism. They hate Christianity. They hate -- they hate everybody.

KING: Are you worried about the people here in your embassy?

PRINCE BANDAR: No, I'm not at all, because the American people are good people. Initially, there was emotions. I was worried. I have about 4,000 students in...

KING: Didn't the king ask to protect them?

PRINCE BANDAR: We -- we -- yes, absolutely. There was -- this is a story for -- you had about 24 members of bin Laden's family, and...

KING: Here?

PRINCE BANDAR: In America, students. And His Majesty said it's not fair for those innocent people to be subjected to any harm. On the other hand, we understood the high emotions. So with coordination with the FBI, we got them all out.

But you know what hurt me. A young man said to me, "Prince Bandar, I always couldn't understand why the American Japanese wanted a memorial. What's the big deal?" He said: "Suddenly I realize: I'm a rich man, I'm in Harvard, and I have to leave my school, not because I was guilty, but because the emotions are high." That really touched me, Larry.

And I am so impressed with how President Bush, how most of the respectable people in the media, the Congress, have preached against hate and against this kind of reaction, although initially it's understandable. People are human beings, and they saw tragedy.

KING: Are you -- are you worried -- do you consider about money laundering through Saudi Arabia?


KING: Money has got to pay for this.

PRINCE BANDAR: Absolutely. We -- we think, as you say in America, follow the money. But here is the funny part, or not so funny part. We are confident that nothing that is -- that we can know, that we know about in Saudi Arabia, no money is going to these organizations. But we know that it goes to Europe, comes back to America, and from America it goes out and it's clean. Kosher.

Now, when we come to our American friends and say, where is this money, sorry we have privacy laws, we have this laws, we have that laws. Now, we're working hand in hand to try and crack this dilemma.

I think the president's regulations that he just came out with are excellent. But furthermore, part of the success of your foreign policy has been you've galvanized the world, everybody on board. The Security Council just issued a resolution that made it mandatory, mandatory, every country in the world must cooperate.

This week, I'm having, my government is sending the deputy secretary of our treasury, deputy of our federal -- like a Federal Reserve -- to come and work with their colleagues here to make sure...

KING: Find the money.

PRINCE BANDAR: ... if there's any loose ends, we can close it.

KING: Prince, we'll be calling on you again. It's always great seeing you.

PRINCE BANDAR: Thank you very much, Larry. My pleasure.

KING: Prince Bandar, he is ambassador from the kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the United States.

Senator Bob Dole is next. Tomorrow night, the first lady and the attorney general. We'll be right back with Bob Dole right after this.


KING: I am Larry King. We are in Washington, with former Senator Bob Dole former G.O.P. presidential nominee and former Senate Majority Leader who has joined forces with former rival Bill Clinton. How did this idea come about?

BOB DOLE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I don't know. I think Andrew McKelvey, the originator, came up with idea of maybe making a bipartisan effort, and we have been talking about it for a couple of weeks, and agreed that if we could help the victims,the families, let's do it.

KING: So, it works that the two of you are spearheading an effort to raise scholarship funds for the children and spouses of the victims of the attack that is called "Families for Freedom Scholarship Fund."

DOLE: A hundred million dollars, we hope to have it done by the end of the year.

KING: Let me give you a number you can call -- look that great shot of two of them -- you can call 1-800-335-1102, 1-800-335-1102, if you would like to help or It is a great idea.

DOLE: I think it covers all the countries, you know. There were victims I think in about 80 countries. And so the children of that particular victim will be eligible for funds from this...

KING: Great idea. We will repeat the number again before you leave. Is this a time you wish you were in the Senate?

DOLE: Well, it is a very important time in our history, and I wished it, but you kink of feel like maybe I could make a contribution.

KING: Like General Shelton said...

DOLE: There is a great guy. We are going to miss him. General Shelton has been you know right up front, and, admired by everybody. There is no partisanship with him, and it is America first, and...

KING: What is your assessment of President Bush so far?

DOLE: I think he has done a tremendous job. I mean, you take a step back and look at it and all the questions early on as Cheney running the place or is Bush working for Cheney? All these other things that were circulating around. They are all forgotten. Everybody knows who is in charge, and I think most everyone gives him high marks, I certainly do.

KING: We have talked about the coalition tonight. How long will the coalition last, Republican and Democrat?

DOLE: It will last a while.

KING: That is a tough coalition.

DOLE: It is a -- you have to have competition, you have to have different views, I mean that can be OK, as long as it is not this petty politics. You know we need debate on some of the issues. You can't say just rubber stamp everything President Bush sends up there and this is -- maybe in some cases you should but not in every case.

But I hope it will last a while. I think President Bush has the American people on his side. I think he has whatever time he needs to do whatever he wishes. I think prudence and patience are the key words and...

KING: You think, Senator, this lessens the attacks on big government, since everyone...


DOLE: No doubt about it. Everybody is spending money and everybody is lining up to see...

KING: We need big government.

DOLE: Well we need government now. People, I think -- and you even noticed in the campaign, people are talking now about -- I have experience, you know, I have been there, I know what to do.

KING: No more hate Washington.

DOLE: Nobody is saying, I have never been in Washington. I'm an outsider. Now people want to be insiders. The American people are -- you know, everybody has shed a few tears. If they haven't, they are not listening. But the great outpouring of support -- I have watched, as you probably -- the Yankee Stadium program, three hours, just tremendous. And, it, you know, I think they underestimated the American people. There is bin Laden, whoever it is, they don't know America and they don't know the American people.

KING: Where were you when this happened?

DOLE: I was just walking out of my apartment building to go out to Walter Reed Hospital to get some treatment.

KING: Your apartment building is about three miles from the Pentagon. DOLE: Right and the doorman said there has just been a plane fly into the towers in New York. And, you know, got to thinking, then the time got there the second plane, and of course everybody knew what it was.

KING: Do you remember your first reaction when you saw all this?

DOLE: Well I think like everybody else, disbelief. Why didn't somebody think of this or whatever, why did it happen? Why innocent people? I mean you go back to Pearl Harbor and say, well, maybe, you can see why the Japanese may have attacked Pearl Harbor.

KING: You could find a reason for it.

DOLE: Yeah, there was -- we had airplanes there, ships there, we had men in uniform, men and women. Here, innocent people, and it is a -- but again, you know, we are going to move ahead. I think I see -- I think it has changed the nation a lot. I think we sort of stood still for a while, maybe 24 hours then went in a different direction. We are more serious, more people going to church, forgetting petty things that we used to talk about.

KING: Were we lax, Senator Dole? We all of us, when some Americans would appear before Senate and House committees and warn about this and ask for marshals on airplanes and small pox vaccines years ago, and nobody listened?

DOLE: Yes, I understand my colleague, Senator Pat Roberts of Kansas even predicted this could happen.

KING: Correct.

DOLE: ... a long time ago. And, again, were we lax? Well, it is easy to second-guess and blame the CIA and blame the FBI and blame Congress. I think, yes, we can all accept part of the blame. But, I hope we don't all, you know, go into shells now and say we can't get on an airplane. I have 11 trips this month. Going to be, all of them except one I think, commercial. You just flew in from Los Angeles today, or...

KING: Yesterday.

DOLE: Yesterday. So I think it is getting back to normal. And we shouldn't, you know, people -- worry about chemical weapons, biological weapons. I think it is good to understand what could happen. But, I think the chances of that are fairly remote. And I think we are prepared to deal with it.

KING: Do you think part of the problem has been in the past that terrorists think America won't respond? I mean, we can give instance upon instance through various administrations of, we are mad, we are angry, but we pull our boys out, we don't want to lose anybody, we don't counteract. DOLE: We fly our at 15,000 feet so nobody gets hurt. We lob cruise missiles and I am not critical of that, but I think that has been the attitude -- well they are not going to respond.

But this is -- this is the first time, this is the greatest loss of life, exceeds Pearl Harbor, exceeds Antietam in the Civil War, and again I think they underestimated the American resolve. This is everybody in America regardless of race, color, creed, philosophy. I would say very -- that there is just a fringe group out there, you know, burning the flag or whatever.

KING: What do we do now?

DOLE: We give the president times and I think he has that time. You know, we are not in the baby killing business, and injuring innocent people. In fact, I would kind of hope the first airdrop over Afghanistan would be food to send a signal to the Islamic world that, you know, we help suffering people. President Bush has already authorized $200 million there and there is going to be hundreds of millions more.

They are going to have -- that is going to be a tragedy beyond description in Afghanistan if we don't help.

KING: Do we have the patience for the long haul?

DOLE: I hope so. I speculated, talking to my wife, Elizabeth, what would it be like in 45 days or 60 days or 6 months?

KING: Christmas is coming.

DOLE: We will be back, fighting over the lock box and Social Security, and all these things we were talking about a month ago, or will we be saying, you know, we are doing a good job, and some of this you are not going to be able to know about. It is going to happen.

KING: Success you may never learn. You mentioned Elizabeth. September 11 she was supposed to formally announce to run for the Senate.

DOLE: She was on an airplane headed for North Carolina to announce her candidacy. Obviously, she...

KING: Did the plane turn back or did she go on down?

DOLE: No, she landed in Charlotte, and didn't know a thing about what happened until she off the plane. And obviously, everything was postponed. KING: Now she has filed the papers, so she is going to run, right?

DOLE: She's doing a very good job of organizing and raising money.

KING: Are you going to go campaign?

DOLE: If she has a big enough lead, I think she can have me in on this.

KING: Do you feel a little -- how do you feel about that?

DOLE: Well, that's one thing Clinton and I talked about Saturday morning, we're going to be Senate spouses, you know.

KING: Yeah, that's right, she wins...

DOLE: We can sit up the gallery and applaud. But no, I think she'll do an excellent job. She's got to be elected first. But she works hard and she'll understand the issues, and she'll represent the people, Larry.

KING: Back to the current situation, what do you make of the protesters? We've always had them. They were in Washington yesterday.

DOLE: Well, you know, that's what those of us in World War II, we fought for people's right to dissent and disagree, and we have the First Amendment. And I don't -- as long as it's peaceful, it doesn't bother me at all.

I don't want them burning the flag. If they do that, they'll be another amendment up before the Congress, and which would probably pass. But you know, I think people have a right to have a different view than I have. I may not like it. I may want to boo, scream and hiss, but this is America.

KING: Do you agree with Ari Fleischer, the presidential spokesman, who said this is a bad time to speak out against...

DOLE: Against America?

KING: Against President Bush or a policy.

DOLE: It's a bad time to, you know -- you know, I think everybody is watching it. You're watching it on this show. Jay Leno and David Letterman and others, they watch it. They're not telling jokes. They're not picking on politicians.

This is a time for reflection and to thank God we're Americans and to pray for the...

KING: But you have a right though the timing may be bad?

DOLE: Timing's bad. But sooner or later, we'll -- you know, Mayor Giuliani, who's done a remarkable job, said we need to laugh, too. You know, we can't -- we bear the burden. It's more than people can bear in many cases. But sooner or later we move on, and that's what this scholarship fund is all about, to try to help...

KING: Yeah, how are you going -- what -- do you have a goal of how much money you want to raise?

DOLE: One hundred million, and it's -- the principal is not going to be touched. The only -- we have a group that's going to coordinate it, and in fact, today I had a call from Bill Gray, the United Negro College Fund. They volunteered to help us coordinate at no cost.

KING: Former congressman.

DOLE: Yeah, great guy. And so -- totally nonpartisan. I mean, people said, well, how can you and Bill Clinton do this? Why can't we do this? You know, we're Americans and we feel for people. It doesn't make any difference what our politics are. I don't have to agree with him on anything else, but we can agree on this.

KING: You would think that that's paramount.

DOLE: I'd think so, but I've had a couple of nasty e-mails.

KING: Really?

DOLE: He probably has, too, saying, what are you teaming up with Bob Dole for?

But people, they get over it. This is about the children. It's not about us.

KING: Let me repeat the phone number. It's 1-800-335-1102. This is Families for Freedom Scholarship Fund: 1-800-335-1102, or

Are we in a recession?

DOLE: Close. That's another thing, you know, this -- in addition to this new kind of a war that we're in, we've got this economic problem. And a lot of people are out of work, and a lot of people aren't going to go back to work for a while. And so we need to find a way to long-term growth, more growth in the economy, create more jobs. It may take several months.

KING: Surplus is going to disappear, isn't it?

DOLE: You know, I haven't heard anybody talk about the surplus. I asked Pete Domenici, who's, you know, on the Budget Committee, Senator Domenici. And been worrying about the surplus. And I said: Pete, where are they getting you all this money? 40 billion here, 20 billion there.

KING: Where is it?

DOLE: Well, he said, it's coming out of the surplus. So sooner or later, the surplus will be at least if not dissipated, will be...

KING: So we're going to be in a deficit again?

DOLE: Well, I don't know about that, but it will certainly shrink the surplus. But again, you know, we're -- I think our economy, I think the fundamentals are fairly sound. But we get the airlines back and get people back to work, and get the stock market, you know, plugging along again. But this -- and there's going to be a lot of money spent by the government, and that's going to help the economy.

KING: Are you glad Reagan National, it's going to apparently be announced tomorrow, they will reopen it?

DOLE: Yes, I think it should be open. I mean, having Ronald Reagan's name on an airport and saying this is the one we're going to close, it's pretty hard to explain. Reagan was the freedom man and everything else. And it'll be open. There will be probably restrictions. We'll live with those.

KING: I must ask you how you're doing. You had an aneurysm.

DOLE: Well, I'm doing pretty well. I had this new procedure where they go up and put this device through the groin, and don't have to cut you open from top to bottom, and you're out of the hospital in three days. My problem was I got a strep infection in the hospital, and I've been battling that the last three months. But I'm getting back to normal, taking a lot of antibiotics. But this new procedure really -- really works.

KING: We'll do a show on that one night and you'll come on.

DOLE: I hope so. I

KING: Thank you, Bob. Senator Bob Dole, along with Bill Clinton, the Families for Freedoms Scholarship Fund. I'll give you the number one more time, 1-800-335-1102. Great idea.

When we come back, Tahmeena Faryal, member of RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan. We will not be able to show her face for obvious reasons. Don't go away.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Tahmeena Faryal, a member of RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan. We're going to show you excerpts from the gripping documentary "Beneath the Veil" during this interview. "Beneath the Veil" has been airing on CNN as part of "CNN PRESENTS." We're going to show it again next week.

This organization RAWA -- R-A-W-A -- was established in Kabul, Afghanistan in 1977 as an independent political-social organization of Afghan women fighting for human rights and social justice.

Do you fear for your safety?

TAHMEENA FARYAL, RAWA: It's really not fair, but we have to be very careful, because we work in a struggle inside Afghanistan and in Pakistan. That, of course, in the situation that our country has been in the last 20 years, especially under the fundamentalists, and recently, the Taliban, we do not have a situation to work openly.

KING: Where are you based?

FARYAL: I'm in Pakistan, but I also go to Afghanistan.

KING: What was it like growing up for a girl?

FARYAL: I spent my childhood in Afghanistan, and when I came to Pakistan I was one of the luckiest that I joined the school of my organization, RAWA, and where I learned to be -- to struggle and to work for women's liberation in my country.

KING: Maybe the worst in the world is in your country, right?

FARYAL: Of course. In the situation, we don't think that we can see any persons which can compare with any other (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KING: Now, it was bad before the Taliban, right?


KING: Worse now?

FARYAL: It's worse, yeah, but it started maybe in 1992 when the other fundamentalist groups took the power. It became worse, and all the restrictions became official under the Taliban.

KING: Education over 12 forbidden for women?


They do not have the right to work. They cannot go outside alone. They have to be accompanied all the time by a close male relative. They even have to paint the windows dark so they cannot be seen by the strangers from outside. And in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- they do not have the right to live.

Women in Afghanistan say that even animals enjoy some rights than we as women.

KING: That's incredible. How -- can an organization like yours effectively operate inside Afghanistan, or does all of it have to come out from Pakistan?

FARYAL: We do have activities in Pakistan as well as in Afghanistan. But it definitely needs courage to work in...

KING: In Afghanistan. FARYAL: ... in Afghanistan as well as in Pakistan, because Pakistan also does not have very favorable condition for us. And we -- that's the main reason that we have to operate totally underground in Afghanistan, and in Pakistan also.

KING: Because your life would definitely be in danger.

FARYAL: Yes. As any other RAWA member, my life would also be in danger.

KING: How many people are in RAWA?

FARYAL: We're around 2,000 core members.

KING: All with guts. I mean, it takes a lot of fortitude to fight against a system like this.

FARYAL: Of course.

KING: Do you raise money?

FARYAL: We raise money through different activities, and mainly through our supporters, and in other countries. And that is mainly thanks to the Internet and our Web site.

KING: Yeah, we're going to give that out. If you want to help, it's simple. It's, right?


KING: And the money does what? People who help?

FARYAL: We have different projects, which are for women and children, inside Afghanistan and for refugees in Pakistan. These are in the educational field, income-generating projects, especially for widows, because they do not have any other option. The majority of the widows will have gone to beggary and prostitution, or they have to commit suicide, because they see their children dying in front of their eyes.

KING: Is there a lot of suicide?

FARYAL: Yes. There is a very -- horribly increasing cases of suicide in Afghanistan.

KING: Do you fear an allied bombing of Afghanistan?

FARYAL: Of course. That's the fear of the majority of the population inside Afghanistan, because the people of Afghanistan are already terrorized for more than two decades.

KING: What about the possibility, what do you think of the return of the exiled king?

FARYAL: We've always welcomed the return of the former king of Afghanistan, and in fact, in this situation, we think that he can be the only alternative as a first step to establish an infrastructure in Afghanistan. And to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) toward -- we can go to a more democratic government.

KING: And we have a tremendous humanitarian crisis, too, with the refugees, which we'll talk more about.


KING: I thank you very much for coming.

FARYAL: Thank you.

KING: I wish you could see her. She's very pretty. And if you want to help, it's, That's the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan. Our guest has been Tahmeena Faryal.

When we come back, Yoko Ono will take us into a musical piece by her late husband. Don't go away.


KING: In our closing moments, we welcome Yoko Ono, the artist and singer, widow of John Lennon. She's in New York. Tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. on TNT, our sister network, Yoko's production of "Come Together: A Night for John Lennon's Words and Music," dedicated to New York City and its people, will be telecast.

Yoko, this was originally for something else, right?

YOKO ONO, JOHN LENNON'S WIDOW: Well, it was for nonviolence. So, but now, because of the situation, it's appropriate that we would help New York City and its people.

KING: And that will be aired tomorrow night. And you've got a whole bunch of people coming together for it?

YOKO ONO: Oh, fantastic people, fantastic performance, and there's also a surprise guest as well.

KING: Ah-hah! You were in New York on September 11th, right?

YOKO ONO: Yes, I was.

KING: Your husband died violently in New York. You witness violence again. Do you ever think of leaving that city?

YOKO ONO: Well, my husband loved New York City and I love New York City as well. I think most of us in New York City feels that way, and it's just very difficult to leave.

I feel that we should just go on living and try to survive together.

KING: Obviously, we'll all never be the same. How do you feel about all this? You're -- you're an anti-violent person. YOKO ONO: Well, I'm still in shock, as most of my friends are, too. I mean, it's a very strange situation. And naturally, it reminds me of the day my husband died. It was a very sudden thing, and this one is very sudden as well.

KING: Thank you, Yoko. We'll all watch tomorrow night. We look forward to seeing you soon. Yoko Ono's "Come Together: A Night for John Lennon's Words and Music."

We'll be back to tell you about tomorrow night, closing the show with images set to John Lennon's "Imagine."