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CNN Larry King Live

Interview With Linda Zamsky-Katz, Billy Martin

Aired May 28, 2002 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Chandra Levy's death declared a homicide today. And while her parents did the unthinkable, holding a memorial service for their only daughter, the mystery still remains who did it and why.

Joining us for their first interview since the memorial, Chandra Levy's aunt, Linda Zamsky-Katz, the attorney for the Levy family, Billy Martin and the Levy family spokesperson Judy Smith.

And then, Condit family attorney Mark Geragos with the latest from that side of the ledger. Plus, world famed forensic expert Dr. Henry Lee and former federal prosecutor Nancy Grace.

And then, a fascinating look at Britain's Queen Elizabeth. Is her life a fairy tale or a tragedy? Joining us, royal experts Robert Lacey, the royal biographer Kitty Kelley, Hugo Vickers and more. All next on LARRY KING LIVE.

A well-wisher began a poem tonight in Modesto, California, that began, "from sunrise to sunset, as a family together we pray, where is Chandra, only God is to know."

Joining us in Modesto, Linda Zamsky-Katz, Chandra Levy's aunt, who has been on this program. Billy Martin, the Levy family attorney; and Judy Smith, the Levy family spokesperson.

Linda, your husband, Paul spoke at that memorial today. What was it like?

LINDA ZAMSKY-KATZ, CHANDRA LEVY'S AUNT: What was the memorial like?

KING: Yes.

ZAMSKY-KATZ: It was very sad. We were all hurting, and it was also healing for our family. We all came together and were strong and holding on to each other.

KING: How is your sister and brother-in-law holding up?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: They're hurting and they're healing. They're going to get through this. We're going to get through this all together.

KING: Linda, frankly, were you expecting it? ZAMSKY-KATZ: Was I expecting -- what is it?

KING: To learn that Chandra was gone?


KING: In other words, you had lost hope?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: I never lost hope. I just had a gut feeling that she was gone.

KING: Billy, the authorities say now that it is murder. What light does that bring, if any, to the family or to you as the attorney for the family?

BILLY MARTIN, LEVY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Larry, you know, I've said all along on the shows where you've had me on, and I've said from the very beginning that we suspected foul play. We were hopeful that this would be ruled a homicide. We knew that Chandra's body did not wind up in an isolated area of Rock Creek Park by accident.

We're hopeful that this will now re-energize the investigation and that the D.C. police and the authorities will investigate this matter as a homicide with a murderer out there on the streets that we'd like to bring to justice.

KING: Are you confident the police will do that? The police chief said today they will solve this?

MARTIN: Larry, one of the things that does encourage me is that Chief Ramsey appears to be in his capacity as chief of the D.C. Police Department in charge of this investigation. All those who are under him should follow his lead. And as the chief has had said publicly, he hopes to solve this. And everybody is still a possible suspect and nobody has been cleared. That is our view and we think the chief will pursue that with his investigators.

KING: Judy Smith, as the spokesperson for the family, we hear a lot the word closure. Has that occurred or will it take solving the mystery to provide full closure?

JUDY SMITH, LEVY FAMILY SPOKESMAN: It's actually a word that the Levy family does not like to use. I don't think that closure will occur. I think that death is something that you learn to deal with and you learn to cope with. What this has done, as Billy said, it is a new chapter, a next chapter, where they focus their attention on bringing to justice the individuals that are responsible for this act.

KING: Linda, how is Chandra's brother Adam holding up?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: He's holding on. He's a very strong young man.

SMITH: Larry, if I could just add to that, Adam was absolutely incredible today. During the past year, he has really held the family together. In the memorial service today, the community residents that attended just clapped and gave him an ovation. It was just really a very touching moment of him speaking on behalf of the family.

KING: Billy Martin, you said today that you think -- that Gary Condit should be re-interviewed by the police. Why?

MARTIN: Well, now, Larry, I think that Gary Condit and every other person who has been interviewed. I think again that Gary Condit knew Chandra. He was one of the last people to be around Chandra. He may have been one of the last people to speak with Chandra. He knew Chandra's mood. He knew all the issues that were on her mind.

One of the great things that we had in our investigation was Linda Zamsky. Linda was able, through her conversations and talks with Chandra, to learn that Chandra was having a relationship, a very meaningful relationship in the eyes of Chandra, with Gary Condit. If that relationship existed and there is no evidence to the contrary, we think he had some very intimate conversations and he knows a lot about the young lady just prior to when she was taken from her apartment and murdered.

KING: Linda, why do you guess that Gary Condit has stayed sort of removed from all of this?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: Because he has information that may help us find her. He may have answers and -- because he was involved with her and he didn't want anyone to know.

KING: When she spoke to you, Linda, did she use his name?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: Only once.

KING: And you were the only one that we knowingly think she confided in, right? She did not confide in her parents about this?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: No, not that I know of.

KING: Judy, does the family plan anything beyond this memorial service? Is that it from a -- are they going to make any public appearances at all? Are they going to appear on any shows or do any media?

SMITH: Larry, that's certainly not in the plans as of yet. They are really just grieving for their daughter. I think sort of the next phase will be based on when the law enforcement determine when they can get the remains back. So they really aren't focused on the media. They're focused on grieving and the return of their daughter.

KING: Billy, concerning remains, I guess that's evidence -- it will take quite a while before they do receive whatever remains there are, won't it?

MARTIN: I spoke with Dr. Arden, the medical examiner in the District of Columbia this morning. And we're working on arrangements on a date and time on how we would go about returning the remains to the family. We've spoken on a date. We've spoken on a time. I don't think that's something we want to discuss publicly. Privately, the family will deal with how it is both in terms of their faith, their religion and their right to privacy, how the family will properly bury Chandra and deal with her remains.

KING: So summing up, Linda, you're saying that this family remains strong?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: Absolutely. Strong, loving, we're going to get through this all together.

KING: Do they have anger?

ZAMSKY-KATZ: Of course. We all do. But we're more sad and we're hurting right now. We can't allow that to overtake our lives. We're going to get through this.

KING: Judy, is the family confident of the police work and Washington finding out -- solving this crime?

SMITH: Absolutely, Larry. They were very positive about the work that the police department has done. And, in fact, you know, we had learned when they discovered her body, there were so many officers on the scene. There are so many experts involved in this. They're very happy with the work that the police department has done. And also very encouraged because Chief Ramsey has pledged that he will do everything he can to find out what happened. So they're encouraged.

KING: Thank you all very much.

When we come back, we'll talk with the deputy police chief and then the attorney for the Geragos -- Mr. Geragos, the attorney for the Condit family. We thank Linda Zamsky-Katz, Billy Martin and Judy Smith, all from Modesto.

As we go to break, here is Linda's husband, Paul, speaking at that ceremony today.


PAUL KATZ, CHANDRA LEVY'S UNCLE: Well, I described Chandra today as bubbly and vivacious, adventurous, I think I can tell you that she liked Reese's peanut butter cups. She liked chocolate. She was trusting and considerate and kind. She was every father's daughter.



KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. In a couple of moments we'll meet Mark Geragos, the attorney for the Condit family. Joining us now from Washington is Deputy Chief Terrance Gainer of the D.C. Metropolitan police.

Chief, it was officially ruled a homicide today. But they don't know what kind of homicide. How do they know then it was a homicide?

DEP. CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, D.C. METRO POLICE: It's based on the totality of the circumstances, the disappearance, how we find the remains, some of the evidence we gathered at the scene. KING: Do we know if the scene was the scene of the crime?

GAINER: We can't say for certainty. There's still evidence that needs to be processed by the FBI as well as soil samples. I think that will lend to the information we have. But the medical examiner has indicated to us that the condition of the remains is certainly consistent with being out in that area for a very, very long period of time.

KING: Chief Ramsey said not a whole lot was obtained from the bones. Would you agree with that?

GAINER: I think that's very accurate, yes.

KING: Is this going to be a very tough case to solve?

GAINER: Well, it was a big step of finding her remains, not only for the family's comfort but what it brings to an investigation. Now we will be anxiously awaiting what the FBI can develop for us. Then we will go back and take a look at statements we've taken, interviews we've conducted, other evidence we've gathered and compare that to what we know today versus what we knew then. And actually when we get into that, what we can learn from the FBI's examination of our evidence.

KING: What can you tell us about the two fellows already in prison, one for murder, another for assault?

GAINER: I can tell you they're a couple of people we've looked at in the past. All during these past 12 months when we were trying to find Ms. Levy, our investigators as well as agents of the FBI looked at crimes being committed in and around the Washington area as well as those across the country to see if we can find any patterns or similarities. We had not found that and we'll have to continue to look at that to see if there's any type of serial killers who might be out there.

KING: Do you plan to re-interview Congressman Condit?

GAINER: I think everyone will have an equal opportunity to be revisited by both our investigators and agents of the FBI.

KING: Would you say that while no one is a direct suspect everyone is still under suspicion that might be involved?

GAINER: I think we have to take a good look at people who knew Ms. Levy or had something to do with her. A central question is why was she up in the park? Was she walking, was she brought there, was she meeting someone there? So we have to look at simultaneous tracks. Was this a stranger who did something to her or was it someone she knew?

KING: Why wasn't the body found when you swept the park?

GAINER: We regret that. You know the park is some 1,700 acres. We put officers in there for three weeks. It appears now, based on where we found her remains and where we have sites of where we visited that we may have been within 100 yards of her remains to the east at one time and 150 yards to the west.

KING: Thank you so much. Deputy Chief Terrance Gainer joining us from Washington -- deputy chief of the Washington D.C. Metropolitan Police.

Joining us here in Los Angeles is Mark Geragos, the attorney for the Condit family. Did any of the family watch that today?

MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY FOR GARY CONDIT: I think they all did. I mean, I got a lot of calls today from various media outlets who wanted to know was he going to attend, was anybody going to attend. I discussed it with him. I didn't think it was appropriate for him to be there to take the focus off.

Billy had said something earlier in the day that he wanted to kind of pause in terms of the investigation and at least let this be a memorial service to her, to Chandra. I think that's what's appropriate given the circumstances.

KING: Do you have any fears of your client's involvement?

GERAGOS: No, none whatsoever. I really don't. Clearly I was more hopeful that the medical examiner would come up with some more evidence. We don't know exactly what they've got other than the statement that was put out there. But I think what the deputy chief just said tends to support what I read between the lines on the statement.

The statement was based on the totality of the circumstances, based on the circumstances of her leaving and based on how we found her, there really wasn't a whole lot of information, it sounds like, the medical examiner brought to the equation here. It sounds more like they couldn't get really a whole lot of information from the remains, unfortunately, and that's why they classified it as a homicide.

KING: What do you make of these two fellows in jail for different crimes occurring in that park?

GERAGOS: Well, I think both are going to be the subject of interviews and, obviously, a lot more investigation because you've got the one gentleman who virtually in the same area had committed two assaults, one two weeks after and the other about eight weeks after. And both of the signatures, if you will, of those other assaults were women who were jogging with walkmen on, which tend to support or be at least a signature, if you will, to Chandra.

The other gentleman who was arrested on June 5, then later convicted and sentenced to life in prison was in a different area of the park but also along remote jogging trails. He's intriguing as a suspect because he obviously battered the one woman and she subsequently died, unfortunately. The other woman when he arrested on June 5, was also a violent assault.

KING: You don't know what both have said with regard to Chandra, though?

GERAGOS: No, I have no idea. I don't know that they're going to release that. Probably would not. Wouldn't be a good investigative technique.

KING: Does Gary Condit expect to be questioned again?

GERAGOS: We would welcome it, actually.

KING: You would?

GERAGOS: Yes. I think and I said early to you, that as soon as the remains have been found, I believe now that that points to a stranger and that it was a predator in that park. I think that that's what ultimately is going to be the resolution of this.

KING: If the FBI suggests or the police using polygraphs for a punch of people, would he submit?

GERAGOS: I would talk to him about it. I haven't yet. But if they thought that that was going to help, I think I would give some advice that would say cooperate. I don't see any reason in the world not to cooperate at this point because I think that this is going to exonerate him. That's what he's looking for.

KING: When Billy Martin says that he thinks -- and Judy Smith said that we think Condit knows more than he says, as does the aunt, how do you react to that? Partially due to the way he's acted.

GERAGOS: I think also Billy also said today, to be fair to him, that he wanted to make it clear, and he make that statement, he says let me be clear about this, I'm not accusing him of anything. I think that it was clear to me, at least, that once they found her where they did, that it became clear to those who do this for a living and those in law enforcement that this was more than likely a predator who was in the park which John Walsh has kind of posited from day one in this case.

KING: Mark Geragos will remain with us. Dr. Henry Lee the famed forensic expert and Nancy Grace the anchor of "Trial Heat" will join us.

As we go to break, here are some comments from Chandra's godmother Fran Eisman (ph) today.


FRAN EISMAN, GODMOTHER, CHANDRA LEVY: Our beautiful goddaughter was aptly named. Her name is Chandra. It means higher than the moon. Well, when we think of our beloved goddaughter, we're not going to look down at the ground. We're going to look up at the stars because that's where she is right now.

She's in God's hands, she's at home, and she's higher than the moon.



KING: Mark Geragos remains with us. Joining us from New York is Nancy Grace, the anchor of "Trial Heat" on Court TV, the former prosecutor, and in New Haven, Dr. Henry Lee, Chief Emeritus, Scientific Services, and former Commissioner of Public Safety for the state of Connecticut. Author of "Cracking Cases: the Science of Solving Crimes."

Dr. Lee, if all they could show was a fractured skull, how do they know it was a homicide?

DR. HENRY LEE, WORLD FAMOUS FORENSIC EXPERT: Well, you know, there are two determination. One is the manner of the death, one is the cause of the death. The manner of the death, only five possibility -- homicide, suicide, accidental death and nature caused or undetermined. By the process of elimination, we know it's not a suicide, it's not the accident, it's not the nature cause, so the logic deduction, because the location where the body found and the condition of the body and surrounding circumstantial evidence, that's a logical determination that's a homicide.

KING: Nancy, since other crimes were committed in that park by other people, two now in jail, does this practically eliminate Condit, in your mind, as a suspect?

NANCY GRACE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely not. And Larry, I have carefully researched the other crimes there in that park. For instance, Ingmar Guandique, the young man that attacked two other women -- frankly, both of the women he attacked were taller blondes, not even remotely resembling Chandra Levy. Not only that, Larry, but when one of the women bit him, he ran. That is not the person that murdered Chandra Levy, from a profiler point of view.

KING: So you think he's still in the picture?

GRACE: I think that Condit is in the picture. I have no doubt that he is in the picture, and the police have been very carefully stating no one has been ruled out and no one has been ruled in.

And also, before these two men came on the scene, people were desperately trying to attach Chandra Levy to the deaths of two other women. They claimed a serial killer. There is no evidence whatsoever, not even a shred, that a serial killer is functioning in D.C.

KING: This upset you, Mark?

GERAGOS: No, it doesn't upset me. By I'll tell you, Nancy, if she was going to be honest with you about this, would tell you that under the federal rules, what's called "similar acts evidence," there are very few judges or prosecutors who could not get these other acts in as evidence that tends to show this person or persons committed this act.

KING: Being blonde doesn't eliminate...

GERAGOS: Doesn't eliminate at all...

GRACE: Yeah, if they really did it, Mark.

GERAGOS: The fact that they were joggers, the fact that they were wearing walkmen, the fact that one of these women was trained in the martial arts, and that may be an explanation for why she got away, would tend to support this.

GRACE: Guandique didn't kill anyone, Mark. And long story short, you know Guandique could never endure a clobberfest from Chandra Levy.

GERAGOS: Albert Clark (ph) did.

Right, Albert Clark (ph) was the other gentleman we're talking about, Nancy, and I'm sure you ran across him when you were doing your deep study.


GERAGOS: He was a gentleman who did end up murdering somebody...

GRACE: He did.

GERAGOS: ...unfortunately. It was also out of that park. It was arguably in a different location. However, he also was somebody who used...

GRACE: Very different location.

GERAGOS: ...great force, but it was also out of the Rock...

KING: All right. Dr. Lee, can you tell us if they will determine whether that body was moved to that location?

LEE: Well, as a scientist we usually keep our mind open. Of course any crime scene could be a primary, could be a secondary. And medical examiner made a statement saying majority of the bone was found. We all know there are 206 bones, and apparently some are missing. Of course, it's important to see which part of missing -- are those are animal activity, also how large area the bones scattered around or in they're in group. So if we can determine that's a primary scene, then of course she probably murdered there.

If it's a secondary scene, definitely, you know, somebody kill her, then subsequently dumped the body there. Besides primary, secondary, we should also look at -- that's a active scene, passive thing, did she put up a fight or she just submit herself. And is that the organized, disorganized crime scene. So it is important, yes.

KING: Forensics still play a big part in this?

LEE: Very important part of it. Her clothing has to be examined thoroughly to look for any damage, tear, any indication. Also have to look for foreign hairs, fibers or any chemical residue, biological samples. And the rest of her, her shoes, and apparently she wore a sweatshirt. That should be examined carefully. I'm sure Washington police department and FBI and other expert can do a good job.

KING: Nancy, do the prosecutors, the potential prosecutors, get involved now or do they wait until arrests are made?

GRACE: Well, typically speaking, Larry, when I had a case that involved what we believed to be a serial killer, we would be involved at the get-go, but I think that it's very easy to ignore one of the most well established criminological facts regarding the murder of women.

And that is well over 80 percent, close to 90 percent of the time, the killer is the intimate male partner. In fact, Larry, it is so often the intimate male partner, it is statistically proven that is the greater likelihood than any other known assailant combined -- robbers, rapists, random killers combined.

KING: So you're saying that the odds are 90 percent that the person who killed her knew her.

GRACE: Was her intimate partner.

GERAGOS: Yes, except the problem is, is that if you take a look at the people who have been either assaulted or murdered who have been found in that park, it is virtually 100 percent been stranger on stranger.

GRACE: One person murdered. One.

GERAGOS: No, that's not true, and you know it. There has been over 30 there. There's been over 30 in that park over the last number of years since they've been keeping statistics.

GRACE: Number of years? Many, many years, Mark.

GERAGOS: Right. That's the key to it.

KING: Dr. Lee, with your vast experience, do you agree with the police chief that this crime will be solved?

LEE: Well, it's a difficult case. I really respect him to make this determination, and to solve a case depends on a lot of factors. And here Nancy and Mark look at a psychological aspect of the killer. That's an excellent approach. Of course, the crime scene and you re- interview all the witnesses and the physical evidence has to combine together. It's not a easy case to solve.

KING: You think it'll be solved, Nancy?

GRACE: I have great faith, and you know why? A year ago no one would predict that we would find her body. We thought it would never happen. And now, this is step one to solving this, and somewhere tonight somebody is worried.

KING: Mark, you think it will be solved?

GERAGOS: Absolutely. I think they've interviewed and they know --they've got a pretty good idea who did this.

KING: Thank you all very much.

Coming next, the latest on the royals. A new book is out on Queen Elizabeth.

Tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE an exclusive hour with Anna Nicole Smith, just awarded $88.5 million by a federal judge from the estate of her late husband.

We'll be right back.


KING: By the way, Friday night Attorney General John Ashcroft will be with us for the full hour.

We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE in New York Robert Lacey, the best-selling biographer, veteran royal watcher. His new book, finally out in America, "Monarch: The Life and Reign of Elizabeth II." There you see its cover.

In Washington, Kitty Kelley, the best-selling biographer and author of "The Royals." She's working on a book now about the dynasty of the Bush family.

In London is Harold Brooks Baker, the publishing director of Burke's Peerage.

And also in London, Hugo Vickers, best-selling biographer, veteran royal watcher. His book on Price Philip's mother is now out in this country -- "Alice: Princess Andrew of Greece."

Robert Lacey, with your book now out and published in America, we thank you very much for joining us. Is -- I don't know how we rate this, but is Elizabeth a great queen?

ROBERT LACEY, AUTHOR, "MONARCH: THE LIFE AND REIGN OF ELIZABETH II": Well, of course, it's difficult to compare her to the first Elizabeth who was the executive head of state. Elizabeth II, our present queen, plays a totally different role from the time of Queen Victoria, really. The role of monarchs has not been to run the country but to reign. And reign means inspiring affection, inspiring feeling, being the embodiment of the country both to the country itself and also, of course, to foreign nations who look to Queen Elizabeth II as the figurehead of Great Britain.

KING: Her father died young, did he not? What was he, 52?

LACEY: Yes, he was the -- well, one of four British kings in the last century to die of smoking related causes. And of course, that brought her to the throne at a comparatively early age, in her twenties, and that's why -- well, we think of her still, I suppose, as quite a young woman. I mean, she's 76. I suppose that's something to do with the long survival of her mother, the Queen Mum. And perhaps one of the things that the queen has had to cope with in the last months is becoming, all of a sudden, from middle aged to elderly.

KING: Kitty, in your opinion has she acquitted herself well as queen?

KITTY KELLEY, ROYAL BIOGRAPHER: I think she's been quite dutiful, very dignified. I certainly don't think you could compare historically to Elizabeth I. I mean, there was an outpouring of the arts and culture and history and military triumph. It was a whole different era.

This Elizabeth came in to the monarchy and has sort of presided over the diminution of it, if you will. She's now head of the Commonwealth. A very dutiful queen.

KING: History, Harold Brooks Baker, will say what of her?

HAROLD BROOKS BAKER, BURKE'S PEERAGE: I think history will clearly state that Elizabeth II is one of the best loved and respected monarchs of all time, and she was certainly the best informed of all time.

Queen Victoria read letters from all of her ambassadors in the field and was considered very well versed in what was happening. Elizabeth II has gone that one step further of knowing absolutely everything you possibly can imagine about her countrymen and her courtiers and the guy in the street. It's really very impressive.

And the great respect the people have had for the queen has now turned into great love and admiration, the type of love that people displayed toward her mother, the queen mother, who died recently. It's very, very impressive.

KING: Hugo Vickers, will she live out her term? Will she stay until she dies or will she give it up and let Charles become king?

HUGO VICKERS, ROYAL BIOGRAPHER: Well, you know, Larry, there was a very exciting moment in Westminster hall the other day when she received the addresses from the two houses of parliament when she stated that she had every intention of continuing, and I must say I felt like a soccer fan. A great cry of "Yea!" went up in my house. I think it's very good.

She becomes more valuable as she goes on. She has been dealing with prime ministers since Churchill. The present prime minister, as we've said before, wasn't even born when she came on the throne.

She has an enormous accumulation of experience, so the longer she stays, the better.

KING: Robert Lacey, did she handle the aftermath of the death of the death of Princess Di well?

LACEY: Well, that's something I address particularly in my book. In the end, it turned out very well. But of course there was that moment right in the middle when the people called for her to come down to London. They protested at her for not lowering the flag. And now here we are, we're actually looking at her speaking to the nation but also to those crowds outside the palace who'd gather around to pay tribute to Diana.

I think this speech of hers was the high point of her reign. It was a moment of great crisis. She had to go on live, and she had to express her own feelings about Diana, both positive and negative, in a way that people found convincing. Everybody knew that Diana and the queen did not get on that well in many respects, and yet the queen managed by being honest but by also concentrating on her positive virtues, but her mothering of William and Harry in particular, to pay a tribute with which everybody agreed.

KING: She has had, Kitty Kelley, a lifelong, almost, love relationship with her husband, has she not?

KELLEY: She has indeed. She was lucky enough to marry a man she really fell in love with, and one thing Robert points out in his book that's quite funny, he says that the queen has chosen as her favorite animal this snapping, nasty little dog known as the Corgi. And for a woman who chooses the Corgi, she can certainly get along with the Duke of Edinburgh.

He has been by her side all these years. He pledged to be her liege man. And say what you will about his dalliances, he is still there at the end of the day, and I think he brings an awful lot to her and to the monarchy.

KING: We'll be right back with more. We'll include your phone calls. Robert Lacey's book "Monarch" is now published in the United States. Tomorrow night, Anna Nicole Smith. Friday night, Attorney General John Ashcroft.

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be right back.


KING: As we come back from our viewing audience, we're showing you some stills from Robert Lacey's new book "Monarch: The Life and Reign of Elizabeth II."

Harold Baker, what's the relationship between her and Charles?

BAKER: Well, I think it's obviously a relationship of great respect. They've had their differences. He has set up a completely independent organization at St. James Palace, as you know.

His idea on press coverage is very different than his mother's. But there's every indication that they are coming closer and closer together as the years go by, and I think that with the death of the queen mother, they'll be even closer. Of course, he will be the one who will be chosen to fill in constantly for the queen when she is unable to attend certain ceremonies. But of course, since she's an anointed monarch, she will remain on the throne until death. And I think it's very likely that Prince Charles will never be king, because the queen could last another 25 years.

KING: Hugo Vickers, what is Elizabeth's feelings about Camilla?

VICKERS: Well, we don't really know what her feelings are. I imagine she has to treat that one with some -- it's a rather difficult problem. Because there you have this kind of strange middle-aged pair who seem to be very content in each other's company. On the other hand, there are all sorts of complications in connection with any possible marriage.

But I have gone on record in the past and I stick to it by saying I don't think the Prince of Wales particularly does want to get married again. I don't think that the state of matrimony was one that made him particularly happy.

KING: Let's take a call. Washington, D.C., hello.

CALLER: Good evening. I wanted to ask Mr. Lacey...

KING: Washington, are you there?

CALLER: Yes, I am here.

KING: Hello?

CALLER: Yes, can you hear me?

KING: OK, sorry, I didn't hear the call. I'm sorry, but I didn't hear the call.

Robert Lacey, do you agree with that, that they will not get married?

LACEY: I don't agree, no, with Hugo. I know that's his position. It's a matter of, obviously, intense debate in Britain. Prince Charles once did go on record as saying he had no plans to remarry.

Interestingly, last year, when a sly reporter poked the question at him and took him a bit by surprise about whether he was going -- if he had marriage plans in his future, he said, "Who knows what the good Lord will bring?"

And I myself interpret the press relationship that Harold's been talking about as definitely a campaign to soften up the British public, who will be the ultimate arbiters of this, for a regularization of his marriage -- of his relationship to Camilla, and I think that will be marriage. I don't think she'll be queen. I mean, British people, when asked about this, now are pretty relaxed in saying let bygones be bygones.

And then these same people when asked will say, no, we don't want her to be queen. And I think that will be dealt with by giving her some sort of title. Prince Charles has got lots of them -- Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay -- so just as we now have a queen and a Duke of Edinburgh, if Charles makes it to throne, and I quite agree that he may never make it, then he'll be king and then his consort, his wife, will be duchess of something, and I think ultimately the British people will want that.

They wouldn't want a king with a bit of stuff on the side. They want it to be regularized.

KING: Kitty Kelley, is there still a fairy tale aspect about the queen and the monarchy in London or has that changed?

KELLEY: Oh, no. I think that's the -- that fairy tale aspect, that fantasy, is what keeps it going for so many people. Absolutely. And I think that that fantasy is one of the reasons why there was such an outpouring when the princess of Wales died, because it was a fairy tale that did not come true.

The princess did not live happily ever after. And I think people become invested in that kind of a fantasy. They become invested in the royal family. They identify with the royal family. They adored the queen mother. She was like everybody's grandmother. They look up to the queen. They forgive her for not being a good mother because she's a dutiful leader. They care about this family. They laugh at them. They make fun of them. But they still are invested in the fairy tale, and it is the fairy tale, I think, that keeps the monarchy alive.

KING: Harold, what did Queen Elizabeth -- what does Queen Elizabeth think of Fergie?

BAKER: Well, I think that if you really want to -- if you really wish to know what all these people think, read Mr. Lacey's book. It is one of the best books on the subject that I have ever read in my life. And he doesn't leave anything out, but he is clever enough not to be too controversial, so that he doesn't really offend anyone as far as the Duchess of York is concerned. I think that Fergie, as the public wishes to call her, is more and more respected as a person, but of course she's not the favorite of everyone at the palace. But you see that she is slowly coming back into her own.

KING: Robert, what does the queen think of Fergie?

LACEY: Well, to start with what we do know, we do know that Prince Philip does not approve of Fergie. He thinks that she brought enormous damage to the family and in the past. And, you know, it's a speculative line. She's now a wonderful mother -- well, she always was a great mother, but, you know, people do wonder whether that marriage between Charles and Diana might have lasted -- everybody knows about the Camilla factor, but if there wasn't a sense in which Fergie was egging the princess on in her antagonism.

Certainly that's what Prince Philip feels. We know that because at Christmas time we had this bizarre situation of all the royal family going to Sandringham and Fergie's daughters being in the big house, and Fergie being away, down the road in a farm, because of Prince Philip's disfavor, but we also know that the queen goes to visit Fergie, which I suppose at the end of the day, gives us some indication who really wears the trousers in the big relationship. KING: We'll be back with more of our discussion on the royals. More next week, too, when the Golden Jubilee takes place.

By the way, tomorrow night's interview with Anna Nicole Smith is exclusive to this program. We'll be right back.


KING: Sensational review from Harold Brooks Baker for Robert Lacey on his new book. Let's ask Hugo Vickers what her relationship was with the late Margaret, who died a while ago at age 71. Hugo, what was that relationship like?

VICKERS: Well, the queen and Princess Margaret, and indeed the queen mother, were extremely close to each other. There was a lot of telephoning that went on between those three households.

They were a very, very strong triumvirate. It was a good and very intimate relationship. For example, if ever the queen went on a trip somewhere, state visit -- for example, if she went to China or India, then Princess Margaret would always go round to see her as soon as she came back on order to hear all the stories and see the pictures and things. No, that was very close.

So it has been a sad year for the queen, losing both of them. And for this reason, I for one very much hope that she will, you know, that what is already happening in this country, that the Golden Jubilee is a great success and everybody is celebrating and having fun and giving her a good boost.

KING: Robert Lacey, did you get interviews inside the palace?

LACEY: Yes, with a lot of people close to the queen. One never, of course, interviews the queen herself. I've been privileged to meet her. When you meet her she is -- but not interview her -- but when you meet her, she is immensely more lively and humorous than she appears in public.

She is, of course, a woman totally without vanity. I mean, it's not every woman who would cheerfully put on the crown like that and wear glasses with the strings hanging down from her ears. I think that's one of the reasons why she's lasted so long in public esteem in Britain. She has this word "stunt," which is her disparaging word for gimmicks.

She's been a gimmick-free queen for 50 years. And as compared to politicians, I think people more than ever now find that very refreshing.

KING: New Smyrna Beach, Florida. Hello.

CALLER: There was a discussion at one time of Princess Anne being able to succeed to the crown earlier than the current status. Whatever happened to that conversation?

KING: Kitty, do we know? KELLEY: Well, right now she cannot do it. But there is a bill, I think, in the House of Lords so that she would be able to succeed down about three generations in line of where she stood. In other words, the first in succession would be Charles, the second would be Anne, then Andrew, and then Edward. Right now, as it stands, it has to pass from Charles, and this is saying that there aren't any children.

Let's say that none of the boys have children. Right now it has to go Charles, then to his brothers. And his sisters -- his sister would be way, way down the line. But now Charles, after the death of Diana, in an effort to make the royal family, the monarchy, more relevant, proposed two or three things, and one was that a woman could succeed in line, as Anne, and also I think he wanted to open it up to the Catholics in the United Kingdom. Please correct me if I'm wrong, gentlemen.

KING: Robert, is she right or wrong?

LACEY: She's certainly right about Prince Charles. And what will happen in the future, because, as Kitty says, the fact that Charles has children now means that the succession goes through him, but there has been a proposal put forward by this way-ahead (ph) group, of which Prince Charles is a member along with the queen, that in the future it will be the first born child who succeeds whether that's a boy or girl. But it hasn't got to parliament yet, so it's not the law.

KING: Robert Lacey's new book is "Monarch: The Life and Reign of Elizabeth II." We thank him and Kitty Kelley and Harold Brooks Baker and Hugo Vickers for joining us. They'll be returning next week when we have more discussion about the royalty and the Golden Jubilee.

I'll tell you about tomorrow night right after these words.


KING: What is it like to be a "sir"?

PAUL MCCARTNEY, MUSICIAN: It's interesting. As my dad would have said, is that spelled c-u-r?

KING: Do they dub you? Do they take a little sword and...

MCCARTNEY: Yeah! That's probably the best bit. You know what it is? It's like winning a great school prize that you didn't go in for, and they sort of suddenly say, "He's OK," and they give you this prize.

And you go to the palace and her majesty, the queen of England -- you go to kneel down on a little red stool for your knee, which is good because my knee was giving me a bit of jib (ph) that day. So I kneel down, and she takes Edward the Confessor's sword...

KING: A-ha.

MCCARTNEY: Come on, Larry. Vavoom. All right. Arise, Sir Paul.

KING: I dub thee Sir Paul?




KING: Tomorrow night, an exclusive interview with Anna Nicole Smith, her first broadcast interview of any type since the death of her husband and all of the prolonged lawsuits that followed.

Anna Nicole Smith tomorrow night. And Attorney General John Ashcroft is the special guest on Friday night.

Speaking of things special, had a terrific story on him in the "New York Times" over the weekend. Great seeing him getting the attention he deserves -- the host of NEWSNIGHT is next. Here's my man, Aaron Brown.