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CNN Larry King Live

Interview With Fred Trujillo, Nancy Grace, Mark Geragos

Aired July 08, 2002 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, day 34 of the Elizabeth Smart mystery. Is there a clue to her fate on a grainy surveillance tape? The video was shot the night Elizabeth was taken from her bedroom at Shriners Hospital parking lot near her home. And with us is the assistant director of security for that hospital, the man who captured the images of two mysterious vehicles, Fred Trujillo.

From the Smart family, we'll meet Elizabeth's uncle, Dave Francom. Plus, Court TV anchor, former prosecutor Nancy Grace; high- profile defense attorney Mark Geragos; the world-renowned forensic expert Dr. Henry Lee, and investigative reporter Karen Scullin, digging into the latest developments in the Smart case for KSL-TV. All that, your calls next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We begin by going to Salt Lake City. And we start with Fred Trujillo. He is assistant director of security for Shriner's Hospital, located close to the Smart home.

All right, what happened while you were at work the night before Elizabeth disappeared? What did you notice, Fred?

FRED TRUJILLO, TAPED MYSTERY CARS NIGHT OF SMART KIDNAPPING: Well, Larry, approximately 12:30, 12:35 a.m., as I was doing some outside perimeter security rounds, I noticed a vehicle pull into our parking lot. It was a light-colored silver or white four-door sedan. It's not out of the ordinary for vehicles to pull in at that time of the morning, late hours.

But what this individual did, instead of stopping for directions, he actually made great effort to conceal himself at the entrance/exit portion of our parking lot. There's a grass berm there, there's some pine trees. And he nestled himself in there. He actually maneuvered his vehicle numerous times, turned his lights on and off several times and actually stayed there for several minutes.

KING: So that was peculiar to you. And did you tape that?

TRUJILLO: Absolutely, because Shriners Hospital is a private hospital, and, of course, my paramount concern is always going to be our patients in the hospital. The individual that was on private property -- usually, again, people will come in, they'll ask directions or they'll leave right away. This individual hung out there for quite some time. So what I chose to do was disrupt my security rounds. I went inside. I got him on our surveillance camera and actually tried to zoom in to see what the individual was up to, to try to get a license plate, to try to get a better description of the vehicle and the individual. Now, when he first drove...

KING: As a -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

TRUJILLO: When he first drove past me, he was approximately 16 or 17 yards away from me, so I actually saw a profile of the individual before he actually went out to the entrance way and stopped and began to maneuver his vehicle and turn on and off his lights. At that time, I went inside to the security desk. I got on the video camera and actually zoomed in on him and watched him for numerous minutes. I think, all told, he was on our property for about 15 or 20 minutes.

KING: Now, Fred, as a veteran security officer, was that a better idea than approaching the car?

TRUJILLO: Absolutely. Depending on the situation when you're alone, depending or not if you're armed or unarmed, security personnel are trained to observe and report as opposed to the police officers who interact with these individuals, who are trained to approach these individuals.

Now, I do have a background in law enforcement, specifically, 17 and a half years in corrections. However, my duties there at Shriners do not entail that I approach anyone. If the individual has a weapon of any kind, you could be in some trouble that way.

KING: Now a second car arrives, right?

TRUJILLO: Correct. After about 10 or 12 minutes of this first vehicle maneuvering and turning his lights on and off, you can actually see from the surveillance tape, which I sat with a special agent of the FBI and we viewed that tape together, you can see a second vehicle pull out of Federal Heights. There's a stop sign there. You can see the vehicle as it blows past the stop sign. And you can actually see the first vehicle flashing his lights.

Now, we can't be sure of that but as if to signal the vehicle that just went by him. And then within about a minute, a minute and a half, that vehicle returns and they interact briefly, 20, 30 seconds. And then they both take off very rapidly. They go down our Virginia Street, which is in the front of the hospital running north and south. They actually flip a U-turn and come back up towards Federal Heights, both vehicles.

KING: And all this in relation to the Smart house is where?

TRUJILLO: It's approximately a few blocks, I would gather. It's less than a half a mile. Initially, approximately about two or three blocks. But the timeframe was what really concerned me. They believe that Elizabeth was abducted somewhere between 1:00 and 2:00. By the time I quit filming this individual, it was very close to 1:00 a.m. KING: Where is this tape?

TRUJILLO: It's in the possession of the FBI.

KING: And they are looking at it? Are either people recognizable to you?

TRUJILLO: The first individual that I saw, the second vehicle was -- it's a great distance away from our building to the actual entrance of the hospital. I got a pretty good look at the first individual. But also, Larry, please understand we gave that tape to the Salt Lake police department 7:30 that morning of the abduction.

KING: Why have we just heard about it now?

TRUJILLO: Well, I really don't know. I know that the Salt Lake Police Department has probably gotten thousands of leads. I know that they tried to prioritize those and go through those one at a time and so they don't miss anything. We will not second-guess the police department. They're the investigative authority in this case and we will defer to their judgment.

KING: Did the driver of the light car look like Mr. Ricci, who is not a suspect in this matter, but has been held?

TRUJILLO: You know, Larry, I worked with Rick Ricci when I was a correctional officer out of Utah state prison. And I recognized Rick Ricci very readily from photographs and things like that. One of the things that was different about this individual that I saw in the vehicle that morning of the abduction was he had very thick hair and he appeared to be clean shaven. Now, of course, 17 yards is not a great distance, but it's far enough to where that if he -- I understand that Rick Ricci probably still has a very bushy mustache. This individual did not have that. And he had very thick hair.

KING: You didn't say to yourself that looks like Rick Ricci, who I knew for...

TRUJILLO: Absolutely. Absolutely not.

KING: As soon as you heard about the Smart kidnapping, you said, this could be involved, right?

TRUJILLO: Well, Larry, what we have said from the very beginning, and personally, I'm very happy that the tape, when we finally got to view that with the FBI, is very consistent with what I've reported the entire time. What we've said all along is that there are several coincidences.

Initially, the vehicle, the make or at least the color and the four-door sedan, that fit. The individual was Caucasian, he had thick, dark hair. He was wearing either a cream or an off-white colored jacket or shirt. Of course, we're in close proximity to the Smart home and, of course, the timeframe is very close. So, we feel like there are some coincidences there.

KING: Did it look to you like they were plotting something?

TRUJILLO: If you were to view the tape, you would see that they were definitely trying to signal each other. They were trying to hook up. It's obviously very abnormal behavior, suspicious behavior. It's certainly two vehicles that are trying to interact and finally do hook up, and then take off very rapidly. And then, again, they head back towards Federal Heights area. So, it's quite suspicious. It's not something that would occur every day at our hospital, or anywhere else for that matter.

KING: Would you say, Fred, that once you heard about the kidnapping, you said, this might be connected?

TRUJILLO: Absolutely. You know, with my background in law enforcement, again, you know, you -- sometimes you just get lucky, and I happened to capture it on tape. It may have nothing to do with the Smart abduction. But then again it might.

KING: The FBI, have they done things like blow this video up? Have you have talked with them while they've looked at it?

TRUJILLO: I have. I've interacted with special agent Kevin Eaton (ph) quite a bit, with Agent Ing Tao (ph) quite a bit. And they have actually sent the surveillance tape back to Quantico, Virginia, to get it enhanced. And that will be forthcoming later this week. As a matter of fact, I spoke with Agent Eaton (ph) this morning. He told me that there were some things that were enhanced, that were blown up, and still photography, digitized and blown up so that they could see them better.

KING: Fred, I'm going to have you remain with us for the first half-hour of the show so that you can join the panel. And the panel may have questions of you. That's Fred Trujillo, assistant director of security for Shriners Hospital, located close to the Smart home in suburban Salt Lake City, Utah.

I'm Larry King. We'll be right back with the panel. Don't go away.


ED SMART, ELIZABETH SMART'S FATHER: The police are working absolutely tirelessly. I mean, they are in there with the FBI. They are definitely working, and it is not solved by any means. I want to make that perfectly clear because I see that they are making progress. You know, we'd like it to be over with now. I would like to see Elizabeth right now. And you know, of course we're anxious, and -- but the investigation is absolutely not stalling.


KING: All right. Remaining with us is Fred Trujillo, assistant director of security for Shriners Hospital. He's in Salt Lake. In New York is Nancy Grace, who sat in again for us last week, for which we thank her, anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV and Former prosecutor. Here in Los Angeles, the famed defense attorney Mark Geragos. In Miami tonight is Dr. Henry Lee, the world-famed forensic expert. His new book is "Cracking Cases: The Science of Solving Crimes." He is chief emeritus of scientific services and former commissioner of public safety for the state of Connecticut. And back in Salt Lake is Karen Scullin. She's an investigative reporter for KSL-TV, been covering this case.

All right, Nancy, you can ask a question of Fred or what do you make of what he's brought in to the picture?

NANCY GRACE, COURT TV: Well, I think it could be possibly the best lead we've gotten so far. Larry, I'm concerned about the quality of the videotape. I've tried many, many times in various prosecutions, including murder cases, to have audio or videotape enhanced. There's just so much that modern science can do, even the FBI.

So I'm anxious to find out how much they can enhance this. I do have a question Officer Trujillo, and that is could you tell whether the driver of the second vehicle was a man or a woman?

TRUJILLO: Absolutely not, because of the distance and the dimly lit area out there, there's just no way to tell that that. I couldn't tell if it was a man or woman.

GRACE: And, Larry, the reason I was asking that was when I first heard this scenario, I thought the timing is so close to when Elizabeth was allegedly abducted. On the other hand, it could be two married lovers trying to meet up in a parking lot. So, I was trying to identify, you know, exactly more of the circumstances.

KING: Oh, Nancy, ye of little faith.


TRUJILLO: Initially, we thought that that might have been the case also. But when people try to hook up that way, they stay together. These two individuals were separated.


KING: All right. Mark Geragos, what do you make of this?

MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They were following each other to a motel somewhere. That's why they were flashing the lights. Officer Trujillo, the question I have got is could you recognize either car as a Cherokee, a Jeep Cherokee?

TRUJILLO: I can't say for sure. No.

GERAGOS: And when they blew it up, did they -- were they able to take little segments of it, blow it up right there in front of you to see if you could make either heads or tails of the license plate or anything else?

TRUJILLO: No. They did that in Quantico, Virginia. They didn't do that in our presence. And I understand from Agent Eaton that that will be available later this week.

KING: Dr. Lee, what do you bring to this mix?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSICS EXPERT: Well, in my career, we did enhance quite a few tapes. Tapes can be very important. In our laboratory, we do have a videotape enhancement section. I have a question. Your tape, it's not reused or a brand new tape?

TRUJILLO: No. It's reused tape.

LEE: Reused tape, sometime the quality...

TRUJILLO: Yes, sir.

LEE: ... is not as good as fresh tape. Also, is that a black and white tape you have?

TRUJILLO: It is actually in color. And the...

LEE: Color. So you do know the color of the vehicle?

TRUJILLO: Yes. It shows it fairly clearly on the videotape. It also -- the thing to keep in mind is when the vehicle first drove through the parking lot, it shows the vehicle very clearly. As far as the license plate, he's on an angle. If you were looking at the screen, it would be from top to bottom on an angle diagonal. That's how the vehicle approached our parking lot from the angle of our cameras. But out there, it's a great distance and it's very dimly lit. So that's why we couldn't get a license plate number.

LEE: Yes. License plate number, if it's at an angle, sometimes they can flatten out. And they do have a program now to enhance that. Of course, the original tape, that's the quality, dictate the whole thing. But enhancement does give us some information.

KING: We don't know when we'll see this tape, by the way. Thus far, of course, it's unavailable to the media and public. Karen Scullin, do you have a comment or question of Fred?

KAREN SCULLIN, KSL REPORTER: Well, right now, I think I would say that, you know, while the FBI clearly is going to try everything they can to enhance this video, Salt Lake City police have said all along they really don't hold out a lot of hope for this tape. They said it's extremely dark. All you can see are headlights and taillights. And they say even with all the technology, they really don't have a lot of hope for it. And I would guess that's why it's just now getting to Washington, D.C. to be enhanced. I think they just don't have a lot of hope for this tape.

GERAGOS: I had a case just within the last 90 days here in Los Angeles where it was the same thing. It was about 12:30 in the morning and it was a security camera on a side view of cars. And what they were able to do is to slow it down, obviously, take the single pictures and then measure the car. And the question, in our case, was it a BMW 7 Series or was it a smaller car? If they're able to do the same thing and either determine that it's the same size as a white Jeep Cherokee or excluded as a Jeep Cherokee, I think that at least will give them some idea as to whether or not they're off on a wild goose chase.

GRACE: Well, Mark, there's more than that, actually. You know, you have got these other two handymen in the mix now, three guys altogether. Rex Young, John Remington, Ricci. They all three worked together just two blocks from the Smart home, OK. They've all got violent felony histories. That's quite a coincidence. So, they're not going to only be comparing this car to Ricci's Jeep, but to the cars belonging to the other two guys as well.

GERAGOS: But the reason they're going to compare it to Ricci's Jeep at least initially is because they've apparently got one witness, a mechanic, who is out there saying that there are seat covers being pulled off, that there's post diggers coming out and that it's covered with mud.

So the first thing they're going to do is focus on that car that you've got a picture of right now, see if they can determine -- if you see those wheel wells, there's a slight angle. They're going to see if on a side view, they can determine whether or not there's an angle. There's also a sharper angle on the top of that Jeep which they'll be able to measure at least from the pictures as well.

KING: Dr. Lee, does this look to you like a robbery gone awry?

LEE: Well, you know, maybe this have nothing to do, just like Mark and Nancy talk about. Maybe just two people try to meet, and to check in to a motel. But, of course, that's still a lead. And just like they putting additional (UNINTELLIGIBLE) basically want the public to participate to come up with more information. The important thing is to find some linkage. Doesn't matter the videotape, physical evidence, DNA or anything we can link Ricci in to this case or exclude him from the case.

KING: Karen, is there indications on any part, FBI or police, that more than one person was involved?

SCULLIN: You know, they don't operate or they're not operating under the whole conspiracy theory. They really aren't. What they're looking for and trying to go after another guy other than Richard Ricci is to hopefully find out, again, who picked him up from the mechanics shop a few days after the kidnapping? They think he may really hold the key to this whole thing. But burglars, and that's they're operating under the bungled burglary theory, burglars tend to operate alone. And so, that's where it it's at right now. They're really not operating under the conspiracy theory that I know of at this point.

KING: And apparently, Karen, we get this word in that he is likely to be charged this week on several -- Mr. Ricci -- on several counts of burglary of the Smart home and others in the neighborhood. Is that what you hear, too?

SCULLIN: Absolutely. They're saying Thursday, Friday, maybe Monday at the latest. They're looking at burglary charges, not only for the Smart home, but possibly other homes in the area burglary, theft and larceny.

They think that not only will that just keep him in prison while they continue their investigation, but it may actually reveal maybe his method of operation. Maybe it will show that, you know, he's not afraid to break into homes while people are home, and hopefully will shed some light on why they continue to focus on Richard Ricci.

KING: We'll take a break. And when we come back, we'll start including your phone calls. Fred Trujillo will remain with us. This is LARRY KING LIVE. Phyllis Diller tomorrow night. Don't go away.


KING: Before we take some calls, Karen, we keep seeing that picture of Mr. Ricci. Is that a recent picture? Is that the way he looks now?

SCULLIN: I can't see the picture. But if it's the one where...

KING: But you know the picture.

SCULLIN: ... he is kind of smiling.

KING: No. He's not sort of smiling, but he's got a heavy mustache.

SCULLIN: Right. Yes, he still has a heavy mustache. I saw the most recent picture is actually when he was booked in to prison, you know, for his parole violation. And in that picture, he is actually laughing and smiling very big. And, yes, he still has that bushy mustache and even kind of longer hair even.

KING: Let's take some calls. Indianapolis, Indiana -- and Fred Trujillo remains with us -- hello.

CALLER: Hello, Larry. How are you?

KING: Hello.

CALLER: I have a question. I'm just wondering. I'm kind of concerned as I sit here and listen why it took so long for this information to become public knowledge about this tape? I mean, it seems kind of weird to me.

KING: Well, Fred, what is it? The police didn't do anything with it or thought little of it?

TRUJILLO: Well, again, I think that you'd have to talk to Chief Dinse or Detective Byrd (ph) to answer that question. We provided the surveillance tape to the Salt Lake Police Department at 7:30 the morning of the abduction. And, Larry, if I could, just two points of clarification. Not Dr. Lee, but the other gentleman that's on the panel. He made a couple comments that I'd just like to respond to, if you'd allow me to.

KING: Mr. Geragos. Yes, go ahead. TRUJILLO: Basically, the first comment that he made was that he felt it might be two lovers hooking up to go to a motel. Again, I wanted to point out these cars separated after interacting very briefly, 20 or 30 seconds, they separated. He also made the comment that they needed to enhance the tape to see if it was Ricci's Jeep. Otherwise, it would be a wild goose chase. I think we'd be very remiss to put all our eggs in one basket that way and to say it was Ricci and...

GERAGOS: Did you...

TRUJILLO: ... the Jeep because there's a lot of people out there that could have perpetrated this crime.

GERAGOS: And did you identify what the other car was? What kind of make or model, the second car?

TRUJILLO: The second vehicle, you can see it actually as it pulls down around Fairfax (ph) Road, which is just down from our hospital, and makes the U-turn, comes back up. I believe that's one of the things that the FBI was trying to enhance.


I just believe it would be remiss to think that it was just one person. I think that we need to leave our options open here to find out who actually did this.

KING: But you couldn't recognize the second car?

TRUJILLO: If I viewed the tape a second or third time, and, again, I don't know vehicles, but someone who knows vehicles could certainly tell you what kind of car it was.

KING: Nancy, do you know why the police may have dismissed this and the FBI is interested?

GRACE: Well, I'm frankly very, very concerned. And coming from law enforcement myself for many, many years, well over a decade, I hate to take a potshot at cops. But what's concerning me more in taking a potshot at them is that this girl could or was possibly still alive at the time. If they sat on this video and it is a significant clue, then they are gravely at fault.

One other thing I wanted to point out. You were speaking with Karen. Law enforcement sources told "Newsweek," Larry, point blank, that Ricci is a, quote, "a cat burglar." His M.O. is going into homes at night while people are sleeping. This is their statement that they had made. So that fits perfectly with this theory about what happened to Elizabeth.

KING: Dr. Lee, what do you make of the delay in knowing about this tape and the police apparently not putting much stock in it and the FBI is?

LEE: Well, probably, initially, they pursue other leads. And Utah police department -- it's not a very large police department. They only have a limited amount of detective manpower. Just so many lead to chase. They may be view that tape, that time, they think not important.

But now, they are looking, for example, they look at some other suspect before, now start focusing. Of course, when FBI brought in, they think of because Utah police doesn't really the facility, also the ability to enhance. But, meanwhile, FBI have a video section enhancer.

KING: Modesto, California, hello.

CALLER: Yes. First off, does Ricci have a key to the Smart house? And if the perpetrator used the key to get into the front door, is it possible that they would have cut the window from the inside to stage a break-in?

GRACE: Interesting theory.

KING: Nancy, what do you make of that?

GRACE: Well, I've heard -- we've heard so much information, Larry. But I have definitely heard that at one point, Ricci, because he worked there, did have keys to the home. Also, I don't agree with the theory -- I don't give a lot of validity to the theory that while someone's trying to get out of the house with a 14-year-old girl, they would take the time to stage. Now, if they had staged ahead of time, maybe. But, no, I don't think they staged it that night.

KING: Fred, do you have memories of Mr. Ricci when you worked at the facility he was imprisoned at?

TRUJILLO: Absolutely, Larry. As a matter of fact, one of the producers, they've been filming a lot at the Shriners Hospital quite a bit over the past month. And he was walking in our front door. I was at the front desk when he was actually holding a picture, an 8x10 picture. It was a mug shot, I guess, if you will, of Richard Ricci. And he was about seven or eight paces away from me.

And I looked at him and I said, hey, that's Rick Ricci. And he says how would you know that? And I said, well, during my 17 and a half years in corrections, I used to be a correctional officer. I interacted with Rick Ricci quite a bit. So, I recognized him immediately.

KING: What was he like?

TRUJILLO: What was he like? Rick Ricci...

KING: What do you remember?

TRUJILLO: As far as a prisoner goes, he was very manageable, very cooperative, a bit animated at times, very assertive. He was a good talker. He thought on his feet, a very bright individual as far as prisoners go. But very cooperative and very manageable.

KING: So you would have placed him among, as a correctional officer, among a better type prisoner?

TRUJILLO: He was a very easy to manage inmate. I'll say that.

KING: To Tampa, Florida, hello.

CALLER: Yes, Larry. My question for Dr. Lee is with current technology, how do you feel about DNA databanks that store and keep track of those who are child predators and others to threats to society?

LEE: Well, that's an excellent question. And, of course, the DNA databank really important, now solve a lot of cases. A lot of cold cases, unsolvable case because if we found a trace among DNA and those cases now have a hope. We said this Elizabeth Smart case, of course, we don't know what exactly evidence they collect, the Utah police from the scene. We just learned of a screen was cut from inside out with a U shape. Any other, let's say I found a cigarette butt or older (ph) soda can, maybe we can do DNA, search the databank, maybe can get the hit.

KING: We'll take a break. We'll be back, and we'll keep for another segment Fred Trujillo with us, along with Nancy Grace, Mark Geragos, Dr. Henry Lee and Karen Scullin, and your phone calls. Don't go away.


E. SMART: I feel the police are and the FBI are in constant contact with me. And I know that they're following up their avenues, their leads that they have. And we're -- you know, we're confident that things are going to come forward, that they're going to uncover issues that, you know, that they're working on. We are very hopeful that this will resolve. I mean, we're praying that this is going to resolve soon.



KING: Before we take some more calls, Karen Scullin, a lot of viewers are asking, why are we learning about this tape now? Even if the police dismissed it, why didn't we know about it 28 days ago?

SCULLIN: Actually, we knew about it a long time ago. And I guess I have to correct that. We knew about it several weeks ago. We even interviewed Mr. Trujillo at that time.

Police were aware of the video. They told the media about the video.

I think, again, they're just not real hopeful that there's a whole heck of a lot on that tape. And who knows what else the FBI has going ...

KING: So...

SCULLIN: ... in terms of Washington, D.C., as far as enhancing the video. So I think...

KING: So the media...

SCULLIN: ... you know, we knew...

KING: ... didn't do anything with it?

SCULLIN: ... about the video.

KING: The general media didn't do anything with it.

SCULLIN: Oh, sure, we did. We talked about it several weeks ago. We knew. We were very well aware of it...


SCULLIN: ... and talked about the video and what Mr. Trujillo had to say about it.

KING: Valiant, Oklahoma, hello.

CALLER: Hello. Usually, you can't use a video of someone as evidence in court unless you have their permission. Since the video in question is a surveillance tape, would that make it permissible?

KING: Mark.

GERAGOS: No, it's -- you don't need their permission. As long as you can lay a foundation, then somebody like Mr. Trujillo, who's going to say on such-and-such a date at such-and-such a time, I had this tape. I zoomed in. I took the tape out. I gave it to somebody else.

That's all you need to lay a foundation for the admission of that tape.

KING: Yuba City, California, hello.

CALLER: Larry and Nancy, I have a suggestion and a question.

I, as the mother of four grown children -- if one of my children had been taken, I would be insane by now. I couldn't go on. So I was trying to think what I would do. And I'm on here to ask you, Nancy, as an attorney, is it legal, would you recommend this?

I, as the mother, would go to the jail where Mr. Ricci is kept. Mrs. Smart and Ricci seem to have a good relationship. It would be one on one, Ricci and me, alone. I would throw myself on his mercy and beg him to tell me if he knew anything about my child.

I believe I would know, by his reaction, after five minutes with him if he took my child -- his eyes, his body language. Maybe that would be the point. His own heart would break, and he'd tell me the truth, whatever that is.

GRACE: You know what, I've seen in a courtroom, many, many times, a defendant break down when they see the victim's family. Your idea is fantastic. The only problem is a little thing called defense attorneys. I doubt very seriously -- no offense, Mark, I would never -- but I doubt very seriously whether Ricci's defense attorney would allow ...

KING: Yeah, if...

GRACE: ... Mr. or Mrs. Smart to speak to him...

GERAGOS: Well, I ...

GRACE: ... in that manner.

GERAGOS: ... don't lay it all at the door of the defense lawyers. I doubt that there's a whole lot of prosecutorial agencies or investigators who are going to allow the purported victim's family in to see a defendant ...

KING: Why not?

GERAGOS: ... for security reasons.

GRACE: She's not asking permission, Mark. She's saying, going on ...

GERAGOS: She's got to...

GRACE: ... her own.

GERAGOS: She's not going to get inside...

KING: No weapons.

GERAGOS: ... of a jail facility. She's not going to get inside of that jail facility, ...

GRACE: People visit every day.

GERAGOS: ... for fear that something's going to happen. Now, I just don't think they ...

GRACE: But you do have to be on a visitation list, actually.

GERAGOS: You've got to ...

GRACE: You've got to be on that list.

GERAGOS: The defendant has got to agree to see the person, number one.

GRACE: True.

GERAGOS: They've got to be able to get through, and get through security on a list. And they have to check out the background and everything else. And then, I think, in this case, FBI profilers probably would not want that, because in some -- to some degree, if they've got 26 hours going on of interviews with the particular defendant or suspect, or non-suspect in this case, they have what they consider to be a relationship.

They're trying to do their own psychological warfare ...

GRACE: Right, and they've ...


GRACE: ... really come up with the answer so far. I think she -- I think a mother -- I frankly think a mother would know.

KING: Yeah...

GRACE: That's just my gut reaction.

KING: ... sounds like a good idea.

Fred Trujillo, would that -- as a former corrections officer, what do you make of that idea?

TRUJILLO: Well, you know, I believe that any parent would be willing to do anything for their children. And I mean, you know, it gets down to the very heart of this matter.

It's not about us. It's not about the police department. It's not about the FBI. It's about trying to find this child, and reunite this child with her parents and her family.

And I was quite touched by the caller and the comments that she made. I believe that, from what I've been able to tell, Mr. Ricci and his wife have tried to be cooperative with authorities.

KING: Yeah. I'd take the shot.


KING: Salt Lake City, hello.

CALLER: Yes. Hi, Larry. My question ...


CALLER: ... is for Karen Scullin.

KING: Yeah.

CALLER: Reports indicate that Mr. Ricci is cooperating with the police. If he is cooperating, has he identified the man who was across the street from the mechanic's shop? And has that man been interviewed?

SCULLIN: Absolutely not. He, in fact -- I've been told he's not cooperating with authorities. And that's the basis of, I think, their investigation, is the whole crux of it is this mechanic.

The mechanic says he picked up his car from the mechanic's shop and brought it back after the kidnapping. Ricci says he never picked up the car.

So there lies the major contradiction, and police believe he's hiding something, and hiding something that Ricci at least feels is pretty big.

Now whether or not that has to do with Elizabeth Smart is still the question. But certainly, that's what they're trying to find out. He's obviously hiding something, and they just want to know what it is.

And as far as...

KING: Fred...

SCULLIN: ... that man across the street who picked him up, ...

KING: Yeah.

SCULLIN: ... no, they don't know who he is. And that's what they're trying to find out by interviewing anyone and everyone who knows and associates with Richard Ricci.

KING: Fred, thanks very much for being with us. We intend to call on you again. You were a wonderful guest.

TRUJILLO: Appreciate it.

KING: Fred Trujillo, the assistant director of security for the Shriner's Hospital. The rest of the panel remains.

We'll spend some moments with David Francom, Elizabeth's uncle, the brother of Lois Smith, Elizabeth's mother. He was with us when we had visited the relatives' home last Friday.

We'll be right back. More calls, too. Don't go away.


KING: Before we get back to our panel, joining us now from Salt Lake City is David Francom, Elizabeth Smart's uncle.

He's the brother of Lois Smith, Elizabeth's mother. He was with us the other night when we were in Salt Lake at a relative's home.

What do you make of this story about the tape, David?


KING: Yeah.

FRANCOM: ... Shriners Hospital? KING: Yeah.

FRANCOM: Oh, I talked with the security guard. And, you know, of course, he felt that there was some concern that the police hadn't been able to view it properly.

I just have to rely on the police, that they've got the correct methods, the know-how, the background. You know, I don't know if they fouled up, if they made a mistake. I think they're trying to do the best they can.

KING: Have you noticed in interaction any friction between the FBI and the police?

FRANCOM: I haven't seen any, no. It seems to me that they're working quite well together.

KING: Are you kept up to date daily? Or is David and your sister kept up to date daily?

FRANCOM: I know Ed and Lois talk ...

KING: I mean Ed. I'm sorry.

FRANCOM: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) probably -- yeah, probably multiple times a day, you know, if there's something to be kept up to date with.

I know that Ed calls the FBI and the police. And I know that they, you know, call him. So, yes, they do keep in touch.

KING: Have your thoughts about Richard Ricci changed at all over the last couple of weeks?

FRANCOM: You know, I don't know much about Mr. Ricci. I do know that, you know, like what the media have reported, and what Ed and Lois have told me, that he's been in their home and that they, you know, liked him, I guess, to some degree, and didn't have any concerns about him being in their home and on their property.

Whether or not he's the actual perpetrator, I guess in one respect we hope that we can put an end to the search. But we just don't know.

We don't know what the situation might be. And of course, this grand jury is hopefully going to help us find out.

KING: Now another weekend has gone by. The -- does your faith remain constant? Don't you get down periods?

FRANCOM: Oh, certainly. I feel discouraged that Elizabeth is not at home with her parents. That's a very hard thing.

But right now, the thing that we have to hold onto is our faith in God. I think it would be -- it would be the wrong time to lose faith in God when we need him the most. And right now we need him. KING: Have the police questioned you, Dave? Have they questioned your family and other people that you know associated with the Smarts?

FRANCOM: I understand that they have questioned the family and everybody who they, you know, think have come in contact with Elizabeth, and anybody who has been in the home.

I personally don't know how much I can comment on the investigation, so I'd better not say too much more.

KING: Did you have to testify before the grand jury?

FRANCOM: I have not.

KING: Dave, could you at all -- would you at all gone (ph) -- I don't want to put words in your mouth -- can you use the word hopeful now?

FRANCOM: Yes. I think we have to have hope. We have to have the hope and the faith that -- you know, if we lose hope, what do we have?

We have to continue with the hope, and have that present in our mind and in our thoughts, and continue to pursue -- to find Elizabeth.

And that's what this is all about, is find Elizabeth, return her to her parents and to her family.

You know, we're doing everything we can, continuing the searches, asking people to look in their cabins, or as they're out camping, or going about on vacation, to constantly, constantly have in their mind, Elizabeth is out there.

I personally had an e-mail today that told me that a person thought she saw Elizabeth in a car. And they followed the car for several miles until they could confirm that that was not Elizabeth.

And that was very heartwarming to me, to know that people are still very much -- very much anxious to help find Elizabeth.

And this reward of the $25,000 and the anonymous tip line -- the police have said that, you know, even if somebody calls in and there's a warrant for their arrest, this is anonymous. And it's -- the 801- 799-INFO -- it will be -- anybody who calls in, nobody's going to find out who that is. So, ...

KING: I hope you're right.

FRANCOM: ... that's the message I hope to get out.

KING: Thank you, David. You remain in our thoughts.

FRANCOM: Thank you, Larry.

KING: David Francom, Elizabeth's uncle. Back to the calls for the panel. Camarillo, California, hello.

CALLER: Hi, Larry. My question is for Karen Scullin.

KING: Yeah.

CALLER: Are you still pursuing the possibility that this might be a runaway? And did she have a boyfriend?

KING: Karen?

SCULLIN: As far as I know, the parents say she did not have a boyfriend. They don't think she's run away. The family relationship was very, very good.

Doing well in school, expecting to go to high school. Everything was pretty much on track. And so I don't think they're pursuing the runaway aspect at all at this point, and have no reason to.

Clearly, they're definitely looking at Richard Ricci, going on the bungled burglary theory at this point. I think, though, they're considering everything -- everything that could be possible though, as well.

KING: Mark, wouldn't they be hoping, the family, that it's a runaway?

GERAGOS: That's exactly ...

KING: Wouldn't that be a prayer?

GERAGOS: ... what I was thinking. I mean, that's the -- if you're -- I'm the father of a girl who's not that much younger than that. And if this were the situation in my house, that's exactly what I'd be hoping for.

You hope that she had run away, that she was scared, and that she was going to come back.

You've seen the parents when they talk to the public and to the media. I mean, they talk, not in terms of the runaway, but in -- it's time. It's been 30 days. It's time to let her go and let her come back.

I mean, they've got to have faith and they've got to be optimistic.

KING: Have your views changed, Nancy, in these 30 days as to the scenario here?

GRACE: Well, as much as I don't like to think about it, the time that has passed makes me less hopeful that the little girl is alive.

But as to the runaway theory of your caller, I only pray that that were true, but the facts tell me otherwise. They're very bitter facts. There were no clothes packed, and I don't think a child that young would think not to pack clothes. No friends knew about a boyfriend -- nobody at school, no e-mails.

There had been no arguments with her parents regarding a boyfriend. I just don't see it as a runaway or taking off with a little boyfriend.

KING: Fort Lauderdale, Florida, hello.

CALLER: Yes. My question is for Karen Scullin.

KING: Yeah.

CALLER: Since Mr. Ricci's vehicle had about 1,000 extra miles on it, has anybody taken a compass from the Smart home and gone about 450 or 500 on all the major roads to search? And, are there gas receipts or gas records for that?

SCULLIN: As far as I know, no gas receipts by any means. Certainly they're looking within a 500-mile radius as to possibilities.

But, you know, they're looking all over the nation at this point. And, you know, hopefully though, the mud samples that have been taken from the car, maybe they can analyze those.

There's forensic geology that they can hopefully find out where that car's been and hopefully find some answers.

But pretty much, they're looking everywhere. They're not ruling out anything at this point 500, 1,000 miles. And really, the man worked on the other side of town from -- you know, several miles apart.

So 500 miles in a week isn't even that unthinkable. It actually kind of makes sense. So, unclear at this point how much that provides police as far as information goes.

KING: We'll take a break, take some more calls and we'll ask Dr. Lee if forensics ever in a case gives up.

We'll be right back.


KING: Dr. Lee, before we take another call, two quick questions. If there were bugs all over the car, would that indicate the driving -- most of those driving was done at night?

And two, does forensics ever give up?

LEE: Yes, that's a good question, Larry.

A lot of bugs on a car, which indicative (ph) could be driving through the night. So forensic entomologist can look at those bugs and trace to the origin. Also today we can do DNA on bugs now.

Forensic scientists will never give up.

But I do have a suggestion that you take a couple of weeks ago when you talk about videotape. Not only the hospital videotape should be examined, airport videotapes, should look at that, too.

Highway toll booths -- all those videotapes should carefully examine any clue for...

KING: Wow.

LEE: ... vehicle or anything.

KING: Good point. Chilliwack, British Columbia, hello.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry.


CALLER: Staying with forensics and staying with Dr. Lee, if we could, Dr. Lee, I understand there was a process used with the Dead Sea scrolls in the analyzation (ph) of digital photography.

I know that you're allowed to assign color, and therefore, there's a lot that can be done with the actual contrast and brightness within a video.

Can you speak a little bit more about what they might be able to be done in the enhancement of digitally converting this video?

LEE: Excellent, excellent question. Today we can do so much now with image enhancement. We can look at the contrast. And with a color video sometime, the contrast not there. We can make that black and white.

And also, you can print the hard copy to look at it, the shape of the vehicle, type of vehicle, try to compare with the known (ph).

Try to do the image merging, and a lot of stuff we can do today.

KING: To Louin, Mississippi, hello.

CALLER: Hello, Larry. How are you?


CALLER: I need to ask the panel, please, do you all think though if they raised the reward money, they'd have a better chance of finding the person or persons who done this?

KING: Mark?

GERAGOS: I don't think so. I think right now ...

KING: They're at 200 even... GERAGOS: ... you've got $250,000 on the one...

KING: Plus the 25.

GERAGOS: ... 25,000 on the other, which is a heck of a lot of money. I think that's going to be incentive enough. The anonymity I think protects anybody who may be.

And the reason they do that is, if there's somebody who is close to or knows who they believe the suspect is, they can then report it. They've got the number that they can identify themselves with.

So I don't think that increasing it is going to be any extra added incentive. I think that's quite a bit of money for anybody who's either close or knows something about this.

KING: Nancy, have rewards generally worked?

GRACE: They can work. And I disagree with Mark on this.

Have you ever noticed that when Powerball gets up around $7, $10, $15 million, people will leave the office and go to a 7-Eleven, and buy a lottery ticket.

I agree with the caller. Raise the reward, ...

GERAGOS: Except ...

GRACE: ... you'll get more information.

GERAGOS: We've got a $25 million reward for Osama bin Laden, and that hasn't done us much good, so ...

GRACE: Completely irrelevant in this particular case.

GERAGOS: Doesn't do -- it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

GRACE: I think that it would.

KING: Hobe Sound, Florida, hello,.

CALLER: Hi, Larry.


CALLER: This might be a long shot, but have they ever considered using a psychic on this case?

KING: Well, they called in a lot of it -- Mark?

GERAGOS: The, you know ...

KING: A psychic.

GERAGOS: ... it isn't that much of a long shot. In cases where they get, where they've become increasingly colder, increasingly frustrated, they've done it.

I've had cases where psychics ...

KING: The late ...

GERAGOS: ... have been brought in.

KING: ... Peter Hurkos did a lot.

GERAGOS: Exactly. And there are people, ...


GERAGOS: ... that they will use if they think that they've got -- they've reached a dead end in some aspect.

KING: Dr. Lee?

LEE: I've got a couple of letters people send to me, including one psychic, and volunteered some information. I did send those letter to Utah.

And of course, we in our cases, sometime we use psychic. And when the case run to the dead end, family demands, you know, something had to be done.

But, you know, it's just another way, but not really give you -- it's not a pure science. So we really don't, can't put too much hope on psychics.

KING: Karen, do you know if the Salt Lake City police have talked to any psychics?

SCULLIN: I do know that they have not. And to quote the chief of police, at one point he said he had psychics coming out of his ears, calling in and offering their tips, and where she's located and things like that.

They believe in their investigators. They have good investigators on this case. And I think they don't need to rely on psychics at this point. And so they're not going down that road right now.

Maybe if they get desperate, if it turns out not to be Richard Ricci, maybe then.

KING: Nancy, would you have used a psychic?

GRACE: Yes. I would have called on the services of a psychic. And you know why? When your trail is cold and you think the victim may still be alive.

A lot of people don't believe in psychics. My jury is still out. But I would be willing to try it.

The only problem with using a psychic, even if you get results, is that when it comes jury trial time, you'll have somebody on your jury that doesn't believe in psychics, and it will taint the state's case.

Then you'll have a problem. But, you may have the girl alive.

KING: Mark, we've got a couple of seconds. Do you think this case is going to be cracked?

GERAGOS: Yes, I do. We talked about it at the break. I just have a feeling that this is going to be cracked. It's not going to take a whole long time.

I think something's going to break, and break fairly soon.

KING: We thank you all very much. We'll be calling on you again. We thank our earlier guests, as well.

Nancy Grace of "Court TV," defense attorney Mark Geragos, Dr. Henry Lee of the world of forensic science and Karen Scullin, investigative reporter for KSL TV, covering the case in Salt Lake City.

When we come back, we'll tell you about tomorrow night on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Stay right there.


KING: Tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE, Phyllis Diller will join us. She is retiring from show business after a legendary career -- Phyllis Diller tomorrow night.

Speaking of legends, we go now to New York. We've been missing each other. He's been on vacation, I've been away, and now finally the masters of the game are together.

Aaron Brown will host "NEWSNIGHT." He is next in Gotham -- Aaron.