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CNN Larry King Live
Interviews With Jason Meyers, Marion Lewis; Panel Discussion of Serial Sniper
Aired October 11, 2002 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, GUEST HOST: Tonight: a massive manhunt for the unknown sniper who has now claimed at least seven lives in the D.C. area over the past 10 days. The victims have one thing in common: They were all ordinary, innocent people going about their everyday innocent lives.
Dean Harold Meyers was fatally gunned down as he was getting gas Wednesday night at a filling station in Virginia. His nephew Jason Meyers is with us tonight in D.C.
A 25-year-old woman, Lori Ann Lewis Rivera, she was vacuuming her minivan at a Maryland service station when she was gunned down. Her father Marion Lewis is with us from Nampa, Idaho.
Then, expert perspective on the all-out search for the shooter who's left the metro Washington area shaken and on edge. Criminologist Casey Jordan, who specializes in violent offender and pattern typology is with us from New York.
In Boston, criminologist Jack Levin, director of the Brudnick Center on conflict and violence at Northeastern University.
In L.A., Orange County Sheriff Mike Carona, a lawman who knows a lot about working high-profile crimes under intense media pressure.
With the sheriff in L.A., you know him well, defense attorney Mark Geragos.
Plus, the latest on the sniper story from Mitchell Miller of WTOP radio.
All that and your calls tonight on LARRY KING LIVE.
Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us.
What do we know? What don't we know? What can we deduce?
Tonight, aside from all the speculation and police report, we are hearing from the victims' families.
Let me first go to Jason Meyers.
Jason, thank you for being with us.
JASON MEYERS, UNCLE KILLED BY SNIPER: Thank you. GRACE: Jason, I want to talk to you about your uncle, about the shooting that has taken your entire family by surprise. What happened that day?
MEYERS: Well, I found out about it, it was a tough time. It was actually at 3:00 in the morning and a couple of Pennsylvania state troopers knocked on our front door.
GRACE: 3:00 a.m.
MEYERS: At 3:00 a.m. We went downstairs and they came in. They actually brought our next-door neighbor with us because she knew us and they didn't know what to expect, you know, how we might react.
And they came in. They didn't have a whole lot of details. They just came in. They were very nice, very sympathetic.
GRACE: What did they tell you?
MEYERS: They told me that my uncle had been shot and killed the prior night.
GRACE: And your immediate reaction?
MEYERS: My immediate reaction was a little bit of shock. I really couldn't believe that that's what had happened. But, you know, the first thing that came into my mind was, because I knew he was down in the Manassas area, was I asked them, I said, was it the sniper in Washington?
And they said, We really don't have any details. We just received the call, and they gave me the name of the detectives that were working on the case and their numbers.
GRACE: As the story unfolded, your thoughts on your uncle being part of this crime spree, part of a serial killer's victims?
MEYERS: It was just -- I mean, obviously it was a horrifying experience. No one wants to go through that.
But I think what really struck me the most was, you know, the likelihood. I mean, you know, every victim...
GRACE: He was at a gas station, right?
MEYERS: Yes, he was just on his way home from work.
GRACE: He had been working late that night.
MEYERS: He was working late on a project for the civil engineering firm.
GRACE: You know, what a lot of people don't know about your uncle, Dean Harold Meyers, he had actually been awarded the Purple Heart in Vietnam. This is a hero. A hero that had worked late that night, coming home, tanking up and out of the blue this happened. How is your family?
MEYERS: Well, everyone was quite shaken. I had the unfortunate task of being the one that was notified, so I had to begin letting everyone know. And I guess it was about 4:30 my wife and I drove over to my parents' house and knocked on their door and let them know.
And my uncle had three brothers, so from there my father went to one of their homes and I went to the other, and we all got together.
GRACE: Does it even seem real to you, what's happening?
MEYERS: It does when I sit and think about it. You know, when you're busy going about taking care of things, it doesn't strike you so much. You still think you're going see him again, but...
GRACE: Yes.
I want to go now to Nampa, Idaho and speak with Marion Lewis.
Mr. Lewis, thank you for being with us.
Are you with me, Mr. Lewis?
MARION LEWIS, DAUGHTER KILLED BY SNIPER: Yes.
GRACE: Mr. Lewis? Hi.
What can you tell us about your daughter?
LEWIS: What do you want to know?
GRACE: Well, I've read a lot about her...
LEWIS: She was a mother...
GRACE: Yes.
LEWIS: She was a mother and a wife. She was devoted to her family. She was cherished by her employers. I don't know of anybody that didn't like Lori. I don't know of anybody that had anything against Lori. I think she was the kind of person that didn't have anything bad to say about anybody.
GRACE: Lori leaves behind, I believe, a 3-year-old daughter?
LEWIS: Yes, Sarah Josaleen (ph).
GRACE: When you first heard about what had happened -- I mean, as I'm looking at you and talking to you, I'm thinking about my own dad and him getting word that one of his children had been shot.
Does it even feel real to you at this point?
LEWIS: Unfortunately it does. It didn't when I heard it the first time, but... GRACE: When you had originally heard, Mr. Lewis, about the sniper here in the D.C. area, were you worried about Lori?
LEWIS: I was working up in the hills, and we were putting in 12- hour days. I hadn't been watching the news lately and so I didn't have a clue until my wife called me.
GRACE: So you were at work when you got the word?
LEWIS: I was back at the hotel we were staying at just after work.
GRACE: What is going to become of her little girl?
LEWIS: Well, hopefully she'll remember the love that she grew up with and she'll grow into as fine a woman as her mother was.
If you were asking about immediate plans, Nelson (ph) is a little bit up in the air about that. We're hoping that he decides to move here to Idaho, but that's his decision. And for the moment I don't think that the future is what he's dwelling on. He is in shock, I believe, somewhat.
GRACE: Does the little girl, her daughter, have any idea what's going on?
LEWIS: She saw her mother in the casket at the funeral and her father explained as best as he could what was going on. When you're 3 1/2 years old, you've got so much life in you that -- and you've got no frame of reference about death. At this point I think that's kind of fortunate.
GRACE: Mr. Lewis, please stay with us. We are taking a quick break.
Everyone, we are talking to Mr. Marion Lewis there in Idaho. His 25-year-old daughter was gunned down by a sniper, leaving behind a 3- year-old little girl and her husband as well.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV filling in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us.
A dark day in the D.C. area. A sniper still at large as of tonight. The most recent shooting this morning, a 53-year-old man gunned down at yet another gas station. This time an Exxon near a major interstate.
Let me go again to Mr. Marion Lewis. He's joining us from Nampa, Idaho. His daughter, Laurie, just 25-years-old, was gunned down by the sniper, leaving behind a beautiful 3-year-old little girl to grow up without her mom and a husband, who, from what I understand, Mr. Lewis, is still basically numbed from the whole thing.
You know, you go through life and you think maybe a car accident, maybe an illness, but to perish at the hands of an anonymous sniper is something you never really figure into the equation.
LEWIS: Most of us are pretty far removed from those kind of things. It's -- it kind of brings home the stories that you see in the news. Really brings home the stories that you see in the news about these kind of things happening to other people.
GRACE: I know. Mr. Lewis, they always seem so -- so far away and so removed from everybody's daily life until now. Your daughter, Laurie Lewis-Rivera, it's my understanding was cleaning out her car at a gas station or a car wash?
LEWIS: At a service station, that's what I understand also.
GRACE: How did she come to be here in the D.C. area, Mr. Lewis?
LEWIS: In junior high, she decided she was going to be a nanny.
After she graduated high school, she went to Northwest Nanny Institute in Portland, Oregon, and graduated that course, which is saying something in itself. That course is a condensed course for what they were to learn -- my understanding is that what they have in their curricular is like three years of learning crammed into one.
And after she graduated, she looked through postings for a nanny placement service that was available and found one that sounded like a family she wanted to work for. And she had an interview with them. She sounded good to them and they sounded good to her so she moved to Washington to be a nanny.
GRACE: She sounds very brave, taking off from Idaho, taking her classes and marching off to D.C. to start a new life.
You have another daughter, Charity. and you have your wife. How are they?
LEWIS: They're holding up.
GRACE: Is she coming home? Is she coming home for the funeral? Laurie? Will she be in Idaho? Is she going to be buried in Idaho?
LEWIS: Yes. We had the funeral Wednesday. She's -- we brought her home to Mountain Home.
GRACE: Also with us here in the studio is Mitchell Miller, who has been covering this story from the very beginning. Mitchell, when I speak to the families involved in the sniper shootings, it's almost as if they can't believe it, but it is very real as of this morning.
What is the latest?
MITCHELL MILLER, WTOP REPORTER: It's absolutely senseless. It's incredible what has really transpired over the last week. Right now, what is happening is an extraordinary effort by state, local, federal officials, all fanned out across the Washington area. They're looking for this white minivan that many people have heard about today.
It's still unclear what the van's role, if any, was in the shooting. But in this case, we have some witnesses who have seen people inside that van and unlike a lot of the other shootings, there seem to be a little bit more for authorities to go on here.
You have a person who said he actually heard the gunshot, who saw the van as it went away and suddenly, you know, then everybody saw this incredible event on I-95, one of the busiest corridors -- highways on the Eastern corridor, where you have just this incredible scene of troopers up on ramps and cars being stopped left and right and traffic completely at a dead stand still on I-95, which is just amazing.
And then, now, tonight, you still have people looking for that white minivan, so as authorities have said, if you're driving a white minivan, there is a good chance that you could be stopped.
GRACE: Well, you know, I've always said, after having prosecuted spree killings and serial killings myself, there is no coincidence in criminal law. And the fact that a white minivan type vehicle has come up in more than one of these shootings in my mind is no coincidence. Thoughts?
MILLER: Right, you've got a shooting from last week where initially there was talk about a white box-like truck. This white van or white vehicle has come up repeatedly. Now, whether or not it's intricately involved in this is still unclear.
I think one thing that will be clear as to whether or not this latest shooting was actually linked to the other sniper shootings, of course, will be the ballistics test. And those are likely to come in probably tomorrow, and then for sure we will really know.
GRACE: Mitchell, is there really a question as to whether it's linked? I mean, there's the outside chance that there is a copy killer, around in a white van similar to the other white van shooting at a long range distance at a gas station, this time an Exxon, a lone victim, one gunshot.
You know, obviously, it's very likely to be the same perpetrator.
MILLER: Yes, I mean, common sense tells you, obviously, that every single parallel is here. You've got an event where it occurred near a major interstate, as we mentioned.
There were others at major interstates. You had one in Bowie, Maryland, that was right near the Beltway in Washington. You had another one, the other night, off of I-66 in Manassas, Virginia. All of these are very closely paralleled. And, of course, authorities, while they don't say it specifically because they have to wait for those ballistics tests, by the fact that they bring in this region- wide task force, immediately sends a clear signal what they're thinking. GRACE: Well, sure, of course we'll wait for the firearms expert and the ballistics results to come back, but, you know, I don't need a two-inch stack of data to tell me this is more likely than not the same perpetrator.
Before we go to break, I just wanted to come back to you about your uncle. You guys, you and your brothers and sisters, the closest thing he had to family, he treated you like his own kids. You grew up with him. Very little has been made of his life, the fact that he was brave, that he been awarded the Purple Heart, had actually been under fire and wounded in Vietnam, did so much in his neighborhood.
It's -- that's the part of the news story that's been lost. And somewhere out there tonight -- and don't think the sniper isn't watching -- I get the feeling, and I'm wondering how you feel, that he doesn't connect these victims to reality. This is some sick game that he's playing.
MEYERS: I really can't speculate on what he's thinking or what his motives are.
GRACE: What are you thinking?
MEYERS: You know, I'm thinking it's just -- it was a terrible loss that we suffered that, you know, everyone whose life my uncle Dean touched has suffered as a result of this.
I mean, I can't even begin to do justice to the goodness, kindness and generosity that was my uncle Dean. He's going to be terribly missed by everyone whose life he touched.
And when I think of my uncle Dean, three facets of his life really come into mind. One was his love of, and trust in God. Second was his living the life to the fullest. He had many interests that he was passionate about. He was into outdoors, camping, hiking, fishing, photography. He was a history buff. He was a car buff. He used to take us for rides in his classic Corvette when we were kids.
And what was really special about uncle Dean was the way he combined all these facets of his life and shared those with the people that were closest to him. You know, being his family, his nephews, his nieces, now his grand-nieces.
GRACE: Thanks. Thanks.
Quick break, everyone.
We are taking a very long, hard look at the sniper killings here in the D.C. area.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: The lookout stands for a white van with a ladder on top. This is a white Astro van. And certainly numerous white Astro vans have been stopped throughout the Washington metropolitan area. I don't have an exact count on that number, but I do want to stress that that white Astro van with the ladder on top remains a proper and appropriate lookout.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The death toll in the D.C. area has now risen to eight as a result of the sniper still at large as of tonight.
We have just learned the identity of the latest victim, Kenneth Bridges, 53 years old, father of six, gunned down today at a local Exxon station.
Of course, Mitchell, we're still waiting for the ballistics to come back for a firearms -- a definitive firearms link. But the similarities are overwhelming.
MILLER: They really are. I mean, as we were mentioning, you have several locations that were similar. You have the single gunshot, of course. You have the fact that several of these shootings have taken place at gas stations.
And that's really what struck a lot of people, of course, because everybody goes to the gas station every week to fill up.
I mean, on my radio station this morning we had a reporter talking about actually taking safety precautions when you go to the gas station. Who would have ever thought you would do that -- walking in a zigzag pattern when you're going to fill up your tank?
GRACE: I've got a funny feeling with this sniper, how you walk in a zigzag pattern is not going to make a difference to this guy.
Let me go to you, Sheriff Mike Carona.
We watched you as you saw the Samantha Runnion case, apprehending Alejandro Avila, who is going to trial.
What do you do next in a manhunt this massive? Where do you go from here?
SHERIFF MIKE CARONA, ORANGE COUNTY, CA: Well, I think what Chief Moose is already doing -- and that is bringing in a number of different resources; you have the FBI, you have ATF, you have the state troopers back there, you have the sheriff's department. Everybody's coming together.
Basically you want to pull all the information that you possibly can, analyze that information as quickly as possible and start making some tactical decisions on going after this individual.
Most importantly, Nancy, is what you and the media have been doing, it's getting the information out to the public. Because the public, the eyes and the ears out there of the public are what's going to help solve this case, like it did in the Samantha Runnion case.
GRACE: You know, you are so right. In the Runnion case, police there in less than four minutes on the scene because of the public, because of people involved in the crime at the get-go.
I guess you heard on the airwaves, Sheriff Carona, the last victim is being confirmed: Kenneth Bridges, father of six, 53 years old.
And let me go to you, Professor Jack Levin.
In this case, the serial murders, the spree killings that I, personally, have prosecuted were much more -- the victim much more close to the perpetrator.
Here it's almost like a game. He shoots at long distance a single bullet, obviously through a scope, probably a silencer, doesn't know his victims, victims not connected.
What's it all about?
JACK LEVIN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, you know, you're absolutely right, Nancy. Most serial killers are up close and personal with their victims. They enjoy the thrill, they want desperately to see their victims suffer and be in pain. And they want, with their own hands, to take the last gasp of breath from their dying victim's body. It makes them feel powerful and in control and dominant.
This killer, however, has distanced himself from his victim. I think part of the reason might be that one of the only things he's good at is shooting.
I mean, he's obviously a loser otherwise. And when he has a high-powered rife in his hand, he actually is an expert marksman. This is probably the only thing that he does well, and he wants us all to know about it.
So I think it's not just the killing here that's so important to the sniper, it's also what happens after the killing, the celebrity status, the cat-and-mouse game with the police, terrifying the entire community. All of these things make this killer feel good about himself. It makes him feel important. He's a big shot for the first time in his life.
GRACE: And I would put money on the fact that he is watching right now.
Casey Jordan, I think -- I agree with Jack Levin on this. But what is unusual is the lack of involvement with the victims.
And here you can't type the victims. Very often you can see, for instance, Gacy had a specific type of victim. You see serial killers attacking hookers or children, specifically, or a particular minority or a particular group. Not so in this case.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: No. And, in fact, I would argue that this case is one for the textbooks because Jack Levin, who's created many typologies for mass and serial killers, argues that he's power control.
I certainly don't disagree that. But what bothers me about this guy is that he seems to have a lot of psyche of a mass murderer even though he's carrying out his attacks one at a time. There's a type of mass murderer called the pseudo-commando. And I think that's how he started out but now I think he's moving into more of a power control psyche, which is more similar to a serial killer. So, his next move is very difficult to predict.
GRACE: Mark Geragos, you have handled many, many felony cases. My question to you is: I was taking a look at the facts and it seems to me he's getting a high off taunting police. For instance, one of the most recent shooting was across the street from a police station. He left the Tarot card to Mr. Policeman -- I am god. And then police earlier went on the air and said schools are safe -- next day, the shooting of a 13-year-old boy at a middle school.
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Which leads me to believe -- the sheriff and I were talking here at the break -- I would not be surprised in the least that you're talking about somebody who is ex- law enforcement. It makes all the sense in the world that you've got somebody who is highly trained, that you've got somebody -- as you said who has been basically taunting the police, this little Tarot card if in fact that is linked, would appear to be somebody who has some kind of affinity for or a fascination with law enforcement.
GRACE: How about a police wannabe? How about a police wannabe?
GERAGOS: I'm not so -- I know that people have been saying that it's either police wannabe or a military wannabe. I think this is somebody who is either military trained or police trained. This is an incredibly sophisticated and skilled person -- obviously deranged.
But this idea that it is a -- comparing him to a traditional serial killer, somebody who gets a thrill out of the killing -- I think here what it is is somebody who wants to paralyze -- at least first and foremost -- a geographic region and by derivation the nation.
And I think you've got something else at work here that is not your -- not what we're talking about -- not something we saw 20 or 30 years ago or somebody needs to climb a bell tower on a university and start sniping at six or seven people in a row. This is somebody who actually is trying to taunt, if not the community, the nation and that leads me to believe that you've got somebody who has got some real training and skill.
GRACE: Well, of course, therein lies the rub between a serial killer and spree killer.
Quick break, everyone. But the latest news, as of tonight, possibly the most recent victim, a father of six, 53-year-old Kenneth Bridges. And as we go to air tonight, a 13-year-old boy is still in critical condition. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight.
As of today, another possible victim of the sniper that is terrorizing the D.C. area. Kenneth Bridges, the father of six, 53-years-old, has been confirmed as the latest victim at an Exxon station. Still waiting on ballistics results to confirm the same type weapon and bullet to connect Mr. Bridges.
Back to you, Mitchell Miller. You've been covering this from the very beginning. We keep hearing about geographical typing. What is your take on that?
MILLER: Well, I'm no expert, but one possibility is there is a lot of military installations along the Northern Virginia corridor along that I-95 route. If you look at the pattern of the shootings right now, none have taken place right in the area where the installations are, but they've taken place a short distance away.
So there's been some speculation maybe, as was referred to earlier, that we may have somebody ex-military -- perhaps a military wannabe, perhaps someone who couldn't make it into the military, but somebody obviously who can shoot.
GRACE: Sheriff Carona, a question to you. He's been referred to as a sniper, a sharpshooter -- although I hate to give him that much credit. But if you're looking through a scope that magnifies, how difficult is it to take this kind of shot?
CARONA: Oh, it's very difficult to take that kind of shot.
GRACE: So he is a sharp shooter?
CARONA: Well, it's somebody that has significant training with a long rifle. That's not an easy shot to make as a civilian. And so I think Mark's concept of potentially ex-law enforcement, ex-military or a wannabe in either on of those classifications is something that I'm sure the law enforcement consortium is looking at.
GRACE: Jack Levin, there are two way -- two things law enforcement has to go on right now. The bullets, the weapon -- you know, ballistics results -- and the location of the crimes. What, if anything, do those two really tell us?
LEVIN: Well, you know, unfortunately they really don't tell us a lot. I mean we can link the killings together and we know -- you know, it was the same firearm and perhaps the killer had lived or worked in the Maryland area. He may not live or work there now, but he's certainly familiar with it. He knows how to get on and off the highways. He chooses his locations very carefully.
But, you know, I wanted to go back to what Casey said before about mass murders and serial killings and you've mentioned spree killings. We got to throw those labels away. You know, this is kind of like the adult version of Columbine. I know it is not a massacre. This sniper did not go into a parking lot at a shopping mall and spray bullets indiscriminately. He decided to do it one at a time so we're calling him a serial sniper.
But you know what? You want a profile. Here is a guy who's going to turn out, I believe, to be a white middle aged male, who externalizes responsibility, has very recently suffered some kind of catastrophic loss -- the loss of a job in a bad economy, maybe a lot of money in the stock market -- he's gone through a nasty separation or divorce, maybe even has a terminal illness and he's an expert in firearms. He's had training in firearms. Maybe the military. Maybe a police officer. But I would bet you that he goes hunting and target shooting quite a bit.
GRACE: But, Casey Jordan, why these particular victims? After looking at the criminal justice system for many, many years that is what is confounding me tonight. There is no connection between them. They range from age 13 to up in the 70s -- 72 -- they're different genders, they're different races, different walks of life. I'm finding it very difficult to connect the dots.
JORDAN: And that's because he doesn't want you to. This is the -- the success pattern of this particular shooter is that you can't connect the dots. You don't know who is going to be next. He has a very representative cross section of our society. People from different socioeconomic statuses, different age, different gender, whites, minorities -- it really doesn't matter. The message is getting out there that no one is safe and that makes him very famous and makes him very proud.
I absolutely agree with Jack's rundown of what sort of background you might discover when we catch this guy and I do believe we will. But, again, you're right. Labels don't really matter. This man is going to kill because he is getting something that speaks to his intrinsic locus, his psyche. It's meeting his needs. He doesn't really care what you think about him.
GRACE: I just hope that in his disjointed manner of killing these victims -- at long range, long distance no connection with them at all -- by seeing their families tonight -- and you know he's watching -- makes him realize the pain that he is causing.
And, Sheriff Mike Carona, on the radio tonight I heard police making a plea for him to turn himself in. Fat chance. Do you really think a guy is going to turn himself in? The prosecutor, one of the local prosecutors already mentioned the death penalty. That didn't help anything.
CARONA: No, I don't think he turns himself in.
GRACE: No way.
CARONA: No. I think that's -- that is a pipe dream. But it's also something that you have to put out there. You try to encourage that. It's not going to happen. But I will tell you, one of the things that's important in this particular case, is in all the chaos that you see -- the lack of consistency, the randomness of this event -- is really helpful from a law enforcement perspective.
We try not to jump to conclusions. What you've heard tonight about some profiles, all that is helpful. And I can tell you the FBI with their Rapid Start Program is magnificent about taking pieces of data and putting that into the computer and prioritizing those people that we would want to look at.
But because they are such random events are really going to help -- is really going to help law enforcement burrow down with -- when they pick up forensic evidence to an individual who committed this crime, or individuals who are committing this crime.
GRACE: Jack Levin, Casey Jordan, when we come back, I want to find out your take as experts, he can quit voluntarily and what did the Tarot card mean? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR HAROLD SMITH, SPOTSYLVANIA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPT.: We are look for a white van that may have had a ladder rack on top of it. We do not -- and I stress -- we do not know if it was involved in the shooting or not. It was seen in the area by several people and we do want to talk to those people in the van.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us.
Let me go straight out to you, Jack Levin. The Tarot card if definitely connected -- and I cannot imagine any other reason the Death card written to police saying, "I am God" on it would be found at the location of one of the shootings if it weren't connected. What does it mean?
LEVIN: Well, it means two things. First of all, I think it indicates that this sniper is paying close attention to the media. There are a lot of commentators over the last few days who have suggested that the sniper is playing God. Well, he's saying in response, I'm not playing, I am God.
The second thing is that the card was left as a challenge to the police. This guy is getting bored. He's gotten away with murder at least...
GRACE: Please don't say that, Jack. Don't tell me he's getting bored because what is he going to do to top himself?
LEVIN: No, the thing is, that like so many other serial killers, he's beginning to feel invincible. He's superior to the police, he believes. He looks over his shoulder, he sees no cops. This shoulder he sees no FBI agents. He thinks he's going to get away with it definitely, so why not up the ante? Let's make this more challenging. Let's leave a few cryptic clues around.
And then today what does doe? He kills a victim right in front of a state trooper. This guy is going to get caught because he is getting too cocky. He thinks he's pretty good at this and we'll get him because he's going make that fatal mistake.
GRACE: Well if you look back, Casey, for instance, Son of Sam Berkowitz communicated, had a dialogue, not only with police, but to a "New York Daily News" reporter on and on which was his undoing -- which was also Kaczynski's undoing, the Unabomber and his thousand and thousands of words dissertation he forced the media to print. That was their undoing. Is this opening up to a dialogue?
JORDAN: I believe so. I think the biggest thing about communicating with the police or the newspapers is it does heighten the stakes in terms of power and control. It shows everybody how much power they have and how little you have.
However, I don't think that this particular shooter got into the game initially to have a cat and mouse game. I think that actually happened as an afterthought almost. I think he initially did it for the thrill or to satisfy some inner need of his own, but then there was so much media attention, that he was actually seduced into the cat and mouse game. I don't I think that was his original objective but I think it will continue.
LEVIN: Nancy, I want to point out that Son of Sam was caught not because of his relationship with Jimmy Breslin from the "New York Daily News," but he had a parking ticket at 3:00 a.m. while he was killing a victim and the police traced the parking ticket back to his apartment.
And keep in mind that the Zodiac killed dozens of people in San Francisco, communicated with the police and with "60 Minutes" and all of the other reporters and he's never been caught.
GRACE: Let me go to you. Well, you're absolutely right, Jack.
Mitchell Miller, regarding that Tarot card -- it caused quite a repercussion and reaction from police.
MILLER: The Montgomery County police chief, Charles Moose, was furious with the media when that came out. It was leaked through law enforcement sources and he came out the morning that that report came out and he was absolutely lived.
And I'm wondering if some of your criminal experts here think that that information actually has damaged the investigation -- could hinder it in any way. And if, in fact, the fact that the police chief showed a lot of emotion at that news conference, if that in any way weakened him in the eyes of the sniper.
GERAGOS: I don't know about -- Nancy, I was going to say I think the reason he was so upset is because I think the profile they've constructed, at least preliminarily, where they felt the release of that information feeds this guy and what he's doing. And that by releasing that that probably hastens other killings. I think that's why he was so upset.
GRACE: Let me ask you this, Sheriff Carona, how do you deal with leaks? This could -- in retrospect -- be a devastating leak. And of course, the sheriff lashed out at the media, but it was a leak within law enforcement.
CARONA: Well, again, I wouldn't dare to second guess Chief Moose. He knows what is going on within his command structure.
I will tell you that there is always a problem with leaks when you have a high profile case and that can impact the outcome. One of the things we did early on with the media is engage them. We told them that we would brief them on an ongoing basis. We sat in the command post an hour before each media event and we made sure that we knew what we were communicating to the public, those things that we could that wouldn't impinge the investigation.
And more importantly, as you know, Nancy -- wouldn't impinge the latter prosecution once we caught the individual. Chief Moose's comments are well taken, how he deals with the leak on an internal basis is a leadership issue.
GRACE: Right. Everybody quick break. But I want to throw out this tipline number if you know anything, if you think you know anything. 888-324-9800.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back everyone.
Let's go straight to our caller from Washington.
Are you with me?
CALLER: Yes.
GRACE: Hi. What's your question?
CALLER: I'm just curious to know if anybody thinks that this is terrorist related.
GRACE: Very interesting.
Let me go you to on that, Jack Levin. You know, following 9/11, the city's healing from that, could it be terror-related?
LEVIN: Well, you know, Nancy, anything is possible. Most guys who would spray bullets at a crowd of strangers, say, are psychotic. They talk to dogs, they hallucinate, they hear voices in an empty room, and they're caught almost immediately. They're no challenge to law enforcement at all. They commit suicide right on the spot.
This guy is no psychotic. And you have to wonder, well, why -- how in the world does he have the wherewithal to get away with these kinds of crimes over such a long period?
One idea is that he's a terrorist; he's a Middle Eastern terrorist.
However, I have to say that this has all the markings of an all- American crime spree. Even though it's unique in some respects, it's also like a lot of other crimes that we've seen over many, many decades.
GERAGOS: You know, but it doesn't have to be Middle Eastern. This is a terrorist. I mean, any way you cut it, this is somebody who's terrorizing a community. I don't care what their ethnic background is...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Right.
LEVIN: Unless you're going to argue that is has political ends,then the FBI is not going to see this as an act of terrorism.
I agree with you, it does incite terror.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: He incites terror. And I don't know why this isn't something that the homeland security isn't dealing with. This is somebody who has decided to target a geographical region. It's no different -- in fact, he's already exceeded the number of deaths from anthrax.
This is somebody who is out there terrorizing a community; it should be an issue of homeland security.
GRACE: Sheriff Carona, question to you: What should citizens be looking for on the radio, on the news we hear, all the police telling the citizens to be alert, look for something -- look for what?
CARONA: Well, I think Chief Moose today laid out a pretty good description, first of all.
They have a profile of the white van. They have some information that has led them to believe that it may be one or two shooters. And they've asked the public to be watching for a number of things.
Now, again, I couldn't recite that. Chief Moose did a pretty good job and...
GRACE: Well what would you be looking for sheriff? What type of unusual behavior?
CARONA: I'd be looking for -- and I think Chief Moose brought this up -- I'd be looking for an individual who has a high degree of interest in this case, who seems to be talking about it quite a bit, maybe a high degree of anxiety at work or with his family. An individual who is doing things differently than his normal pattern.
And those are the types of tips that we're looking for in law enforcement, and I think Chief Moose is looking for.
GRACE: You made me think of something, sheriff.
Let me go to you on this, Mitchell. Has he struck on a weekend, or does he take the weekends off?
MILLER: He generally has struck during the week, and oftentimes has struck during the morning rush hour. Today it was a little bit late in the morning rush hour. But often at very, very busy times. And...
GRACE: Right. And, you know, the other times, I've got 5:20, 6:04, also during rush hour, but not on weekends.
Casey, I've only got a few moments left, literally a minute -- can he stop on his own Casey?
JORDAN: I don't believe he will.
Anything is possible. If the shooting stops, it could be for an entirely different reason. I mean, he could fall ill, he could go to prison for an entirely different crime.
So I wouldn't guess that this is going to stop. We tend not to see these things stop until the person is captured. And I would not be at all surprised if he does choose to go out in a so-called blaze of glory. Infamy, living in fame, having his name in the textbooks is what he is about. And if he has to die to do it, I think he will.
GRACE: Casey Jordan, thank you so much. Jack Levin, Sheriff Mike Carona, Mark Geragos and reporter Mitchell Miller, all with us tonight.
I'm signing off.
But I want to remind you, tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE, John McCain.
Following us: "NEWSNIGHT" with Aaron Brown.
Good night everyone.
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Discussion of Serial Sniper>
Aired October 11, 2002 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, GUEST HOST: Tonight: a massive manhunt for the unknown sniper who has now claimed at least seven lives in the D.C. area over the past 10 days. The victims have one thing in common: They were all ordinary, innocent people going about their everyday innocent lives.
Dean Harold Meyers was fatally gunned down as he was getting gas Wednesday night at a filling station in Virginia. His nephew Jason Meyers is with us tonight in D.C.
A 25-year-old woman, Lori Ann Lewis Rivera, she was vacuuming her minivan at a Maryland service station when she was gunned down. Her father Marion Lewis is with us from Nampa, Idaho.
Then, expert perspective on the all-out search for the shooter who's left the metro Washington area shaken and on edge. Criminologist Casey Jordan, who specializes in violent offender and pattern typology is with us from New York.
In Boston, criminologist Jack Levin, director of the Brudnick Center on conflict and violence at Northeastern University.
In L.A., Orange County Sheriff Mike Carona, a lawman who knows a lot about working high-profile crimes under intense media pressure.
With the sheriff in L.A., you know him well, defense attorney Mark Geragos.
Plus, the latest on the sniper story from Mitchell Miller of WTOP radio.
All that and your calls tonight on LARRY KING LIVE.
Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us.
What do we know? What don't we know? What can we deduce?
Tonight, aside from all the speculation and police report, we are hearing from the victims' families.
Let me first go to Jason Meyers.
Jason, thank you for being with us.
JASON MEYERS, UNCLE KILLED BY SNIPER: Thank you. GRACE: Jason, I want to talk to you about your uncle, about the shooting that has taken your entire family by surprise. What happened that day?
MEYERS: Well, I found out about it, it was a tough time. It was actually at 3:00 in the morning and a couple of Pennsylvania state troopers knocked on our front door.
GRACE: 3:00 a.m.
MEYERS: At 3:00 a.m. We went downstairs and they came in. They actually brought our next-door neighbor with us because she knew us and they didn't know what to expect, you know, how we might react.
And they came in. They didn't have a whole lot of details. They just came in. They were very nice, very sympathetic.
GRACE: What did they tell you?
MEYERS: They told me that my uncle had been shot and killed the prior night.
GRACE: And your immediate reaction?
MEYERS: My immediate reaction was a little bit of shock. I really couldn't believe that that's what had happened. But, you know, the first thing that came into my mind was, because I knew he was down in the Manassas area, was I asked them, I said, was it the sniper in Washington?
And they said, We really don't have any details. We just received the call, and they gave me the name of the detectives that were working on the case and their numbers.
GRACE: As the story unfolded, your thoughts on your uncle being part of this crime spree, part of a serial killer's victims?
MEYERS: It was just -- I mean, obviously it was a horrifying experience. No one wants to go through that.
But I think what really struck me the most was, you know, the likelihood. I mean, you know, every victim...
GRACE: He was at a gas station, right?
MEYERS: Yes, he was just on his way home from work.
GRACE: He had been working late that night.
MEYERS: He was working late on a project for the civil engineering firm.
GRACE: You know, what a lot of people don't know about your uncle, Dean Harold Meyers, he had actually been awarded the Purple Heart in Vietnam. This is a hero. A hero that had worked late that night, coming home, tanking up and out of the blue this happened. How is your family?
MEYERS: Well, everyone was quite shaken. I had the unfortunate task of being the one that was notified, so I had to begin letting everyone know. And I guess it was about 4:30 my wife and I drove over to my parents' house and knocked on their door and let them know.
And my uncle had three brothers, so from there my father went to one of their homes and I went to the other, and we all got together.
GRACE: Does it even seem real to you, what's happening?
MEYERS: It does when I sit and think about it. You know, when you're busy going about taking care of things, it doesn't strike you so much. You still think you're going see him again, but...
GRACE: Yes.
I want to go now to Nampa, Idaho and speak with Marion Lewis.
Mr. Lewis, thank you for being with us.
Are you with me, Mr. Lewis?
MARION LEWIS, DAUGHTER KILLED BY SNIPER: Yes.
GRACE: Mr. Lewis? Hi.
What can you tell us about your daughter?
LEWIS: What do you want to know?
GRACE: Well, I've read a lot about her...
LEWIS: She was a mother...
GRACE: Yes.
LEWIS: She was a mother and a wife. She was devoted to her family. She was cherished by her employers. I don't know of anybody that didn't like Lori. I don't know of anybody that had anything against Lori. I think she was the kind of person that didn't have anything bad to say about anybody.
GRACE: Lori leaves behind, I believe, a 3-year-old daughter?
LEWIS: Yes, Sarah Josaleen (ph).
GRACE: When you first heard about what had happened -- I mean, as I'm looking at you and talking to you, I'm thinking about my own dad and him getting word that one of his children had been shot.
Does it even feel real to you at this point?
LEWIS: Unfortunately it does. It didn't when I heard it the first time, but... GRACE: When you had originally heard, Mr. Lewis, about the sniper here in the D.C. area, were you worried about Lori?
LEWIS: I was working up in the hills, and we were putting in 12- hour days. I hadn't been watching the news lately and so I didn't have a clue until my wife called me.
GRACE: So you were at work when you got the word?
LEWIS: I was back at the hotel we were staying at just after work.
GRACE: What is going to become of her little girl?
LEWIS: Well, hopefully she'll remember the love that she grew up with and she'll grow into as fine a woman as her mother was.
If you were asking about immediate plans, Nelson (ph) is a little bit up in the air about that. We're hoping that he decides to move here to Idaho, but that's his decision. And for the moment I don't think that the future is what he's dwelling on. He is in shock, I believe, somewhat.
GRACE: Does the little girl, her daughter, have any idea what's going on?
LEWIS: She saw her mother in the casket at the funeral and her father explained as best as he could what was going on. When you're 3 1/2 years old, you've got so much life in you that -- and you've got no frame of reference about death. At this point I think that's kind of fortunate.
GRACE: Mr. Lewis, please stay with us. We are taking a quick break.
Everyone, we are talking to Mr. Marion Lewis there in Idaho. His 25-year-old daughter was gunned down by a sniper, leaving behind a 3- year-old little girl and her husband as well.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV filling in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us.
A dark day in the D.C. area. A sniper still at large as of tonight. The most recent shooting this morning, a 53-year-old man gunned down at yet another gas station. This time an Exxon near a major interstate.
Let me go again to Mr. Marion Lewis. He's joining us from Nampa, Idaho. His daughter, Laurie, just 25-years-old, was gunned down by the sniper, leaving behind a beautiful 3-year-old little girl to grow up without her mom and a husband, who, from what I understand, Mr. Lewis, is still basically numbed from the whole thing.
You know, you go through life and you think maybe a car accident, maybe an illness, but to perish at the hands of an anonymous sniper is something you never really figure into the equation.
LEWIS: Most of us are pretty far removed from those kind of things. It's -- it kind of brings home the stories that you see in the news. Really brings home the stories that you see in the news about these kind of things happening to other people.
GRACE: I know. Mr. Lewis, they always seem so -- so far away and so removed from everybody's daily life until now. Your daughter, Laurie Lewis-Rivera, it's my understanding was cleaning out her car at a gas station or a car wash?
LEWIS: At a service station, that's what I understand also.
GRACE: How did she come to be here in the D.C. area, Mr. Lewis?
LEWIS: In junior high, she decided she was going to be a nanny.
After she graduated high school, she went to Northwest Nanny Institute in Portland, Oregon, and graduated that course, which is saying something in itself. That course is a condensed course for what they were to learn -- my understanding is that what they have in their curricular is like three years of learning crammed into one.
And after she graduated, she looked through postings for a nanny placement service that was available and found one that sounded like a family she wanted to work for. And she had an interview with them. She sounded good to them and they sounded good to her so she moved to Washington to be a nanny.
GRACE: She sounds very brave, taking off from Idaho, taking her classes and marching off to D.C. to start a new life.
You have another daughter, Charity. and you have your wife. How are they?
LEWIS: They're holding up.
GRACE: Is she coming home? Is she coming home for the funeral? Laurie? Will she be in Idaho? Is she going to be buried in Idaho?
LEWIS: Yes. We had the funeral Wednesday. She's -- we brought her home to Mountain Home.
GRACE: Also with us here in the studio is Mitchell Miller, who has been covering this story from the very beginning. Mitchell, when I speak to the families involved in the sniper shootings, it's almost as if they can't believe it, but it is very real as of this morning.
What is the latest?
MITCHELL MILLER, WTOP REPORTER: It's absolutely senseless. It's incredible what has really transpired over the last week. Right now, what is happening is an extraordinary effort by state, local, federal officials, all fanned out across the Washington area. They're looking for this white minivan that many people have heard about today.
It's still unclear what the van's role, if any, was in the shooting. But in this case, we have some witnesses who have seen people inside that van and unlike a lot of the other shootings, there seem to be a little bit more for authorities to go on here.
You have a person who said he actually heard the gunshot, who saw the van as it went away and suddenly, you know, then everybody saw this incredible event on I-95, one of the busiest corridors -- highways on the Eastern corridor, where you have just this incredible scene of troopers up on ramps and cars being stopped left and right and traffic completely at a dead stand still on I-95, which is just amazing.
And then, now, tonight, you still have people looking for that white minivan, so as authorities have said, if you're driving a white minivan, there is a good chance that you could be stopped.
GRACE: Well, you know, I've always said, after having prosecuted spree killings and serial killings myself, there is no coincidence in criminal law. And the fact that a white minivan type vehicle has come up in more than one of these shootings in my mind is no coincidence. Thoughts?
MILLER: Right, you've got a shooting from last week where initially there was talk about a white box-like truck. This white van or white vehicle has come up repeatedly. Now, whether or not it's intricately involved in this is still unclear.
I think one thing that will be clear as to whether or not this latest shooting was actually linked to the other sniper shootings, of course, will be the ballistics test. And those are likely to come in probably tomorrow, and then for sure we will really know.
GRACE: Mitchell, is there really a question as to whether it's linked? I mean, there's the outside chance that there is a copy killer, around in a white van similar to the other white van shooting at a long range distance at a gas station, this time an Exxon, a lone victim, one gunshot.
You know, obviously, it's very likely to be the same perpetrator.
MILLER: Yes, I mean, common sense tells you, obviously, that every single parallel is here. You've got an event where it occurred near a major interstate, as we mentioned.
There were others at major interstates. You had one in Bowie, Maryland, that was right near the Beltway in Washington. You had another one, the other night, off of I-66 in Manassas, Virginia. All of these are very closely paralleled. And, of course, authorities, while they don't say it specifically because they have to wait for those ballistics tests, by the fact that they bring in this region- wide task force, immediately sends a clear signal what they're thinking. GRACE: Well, sure, of course we'll wait for the firearms expert and the ballistics results to come back, but, you know, I don't need a two-inch stack of data to tell me this is more likely than not the same perpetrator.
Before we go to break, I just wanted to come back to you about your uncle. You guys, you and your brothers and sisters, the closest thing he had to family, he treated you like his own kids. You grew up with him. Very little has been made of his life, the fact that he was brave, that he been awarded the Purple Heart, had actually been under fire and wounded in Vietnam, did so much in his neighborhood.
It's -- that's the part of the news story that's been lost. And somewhere out there tonight -- and don't think the sniper isn't watching -- I get the feeling, and I'm wondering how you feel, that he doesn't connect these victims to reality. This is some sick game that he's playing.
MEYERS: I really can't speculate on what he's thinking or what his motives are.
GRACE: What are you thinking?
MEYERS: You know, I'm thinking it's just -- it was a terrible loss that we suffered that, you know, everyone whose life my uncle Dean touched has suffered as a result of this.
I mean, I can't even begin to do justice to the goodness, kindness and generosity that was my uncle Dean. He's going to be terribly missed by everyone whose life he touched.
And when I think of my uncle Dean, three facets of his life really come into mind. One was his love of, and trust in God. Second was his living the life to the fullest. He had many interests that he was passionate about. He was into outdoors, camping, hiking, fishing, photography. He was a history buff. He was a car buff. He used to take us for rides in his classic Corvette when we were kids.
And what was really special about uncle Dean was the way he combined all these facets of his life and shared those with the people that were closest to him. You know, being his family, his nephews, his nieces, now his grand-nieces.
GRACE: Thanks. Thanks.
Quick break, everyone.
We are taking a very long, hard look at the sniper killings here in the D.C. area.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: The lookout stands for a white van with a ladder on top. This is a white Astro van. And certainly numerous white Astro vans have been stopped throughout the Washington metropolitan area. I don't have an exact count on that number, but I do want to stress that that white Astro van with the ladder on top remains a proper and appropriate lookout.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The death toll in the D.C. area has now risen to eight as a result of the sniper still at large as of tonight.
We have just learned the identity of the latest victim, Kenneth Bridges, 53 years old, father of six, gunned down today at a local Exxon station.
Of course, Mitchell, we're still waiting for the ballistics to come back for a firearms -- a definitive firearms link. But the similarities are overwhelming.
MILLER: They really are. I mean, as we were mentioning, you have several locations that were similar. You have the single gunshot, of course. You have the fact that several of these shootings have taken place at gas stations.
And that's really what struck a lot of people, of course, because everybody goes to the gas station every week to fill up.
I mean, on my radio station this morning we had a reporter talking about actually taking safety precautions when you go to the gas station. Who would have ever thought you would do that -- walking in a zigzag pattern when you're going to fill up your tank?
GRACE: I've got a funny feeling with this sniper, how you walk in a zigzag pattern is not going to make a difference to this guy.
Let me go to you, Sheriff Mike Carona.
We watched you as you saw the Samantha Runnion case, apprehending Alejandro Avila, who is going to trial.
What do you do next in a manhunt this massive? Where do you go from here?
SHERIFF MIKE CARONA, ORANGE COUNTY, CA: Well, I think what Chief Moose is already doing -- and that is bringing in a number of different resources; you have the FBI, you have ATF, you have the state troopers back there, you have the sheriff's department. Everybody's coming together.
Basically you want to pull all the information that you possibly can, analyze that information as quickly as possible and start making some tactical decisions on going after this individual.
Most importantly, Nancy, is what you and the media have been doing, it's getting the information out to the public. Because the public, the eyes and the ears out there of the public are what's going to help solve this case, like it did in the Samantha Runnion case.
GRACE: You know, you are so right. In the Runnion case, police there in less than four minutes on the scene because of the public, because of people involved in the crime at the get-go.
I guess you heard on the airwaves, Sheriff Carona, the last victim is being confirmed: Kenneth Bridges, father of six, 53 years old.
And let me go to you, Professor Jack Levin.
In this case, the serial murders, the spree killings that I, personally, have prosecuted were much more -- the victim much more close to the perpetrator.
Here it's almost like a game. He shoots at long distance a single bullet, obviously through a scope, probably a silencer, doesn't know his victims, victims not connected.
What's it all about?
JACK LEVIN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, you know, you're absolutely right, Nancy. Most serial killers are up close and personal with their victims. They enjoy the thrill, they want desperately to see their victims suffer and be in pain. And they want, with their own hands, to take the last gasp of breath from their dying victim's body. It makes them feel powerful and in control and dominant.
This killer, however, has distanced himself from his victim. I think part of the reason might be that one of the only things he's good at is shooting.
I mean, he's obviously a loser otherwise. And when he has a high-powered rife in his hand, he actually is an expert marksman. This is probably the only thing that he does well, and he wants us all to know about it.
So I think it's not just the killing here that's so important to the sniper, it's also what happens after the killing, the celebrity status, the cat-and-mouse game with the police, terrifying the entire community. All of these things make this killer feel good about himself. It makes him feel important. He's a big shot for the first time in his life.
GRACE: And I would put money on the fact that he is watching right now.
Casey Jordan, I think -- I agree with Jack Levin on this. But what is unusual is the lack of involvement with the victims.
And here you can't type the victims. Very often you can see, for instance, Gacy had a specific type of victim. You see serial killers attacking hookers or children, specifically, or a particular minority or a particular group. Not so in this case.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: No. And, in fact, I would argue that this case is one for the textbooks because Jack Levin, who's created many typologies for mass and serial killers, argues that he's power control.
I certainly don't disagree that. But what bothers me about this guy is that he seems to have a lot of psyche of a mass murderer even though he's carrying out his attacks one at a time. There's a type of mass murderer called the pseudo-commando. And I think that's how he started out but now I think he's moving into more of a power control psyche, which is more similar to a serial killer. So, his next move is very difficult to predict.
GRACE: Mark Geragos, you have handled many, many felony cases. My question to you is: I was taking a look at the facts and it seems to me he's getting a high off taunting police. For instance, one of the most recent shooting was across the street from a police station. He left the Tarot card to Mr. Policeman -- I am god. And then police earlier went on the air and said schools are safe -- next day, the shooting of a 13-year-old boy at a middle school.
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Which leads me to believe -- the sheriff and I were talking here at the break -- I would not be surprised in the least that you're talking about somebody who is ex- law enforcement. It makes all the sense in the world that you've got somebody who is highly trained, that you've got somebody -- as you said who has been basically taunting the police, this little Tarot card if in fact that is linked, would appear to be somebody who has some kind of affinity for or a fascination with law enforcement.
GRACE: How about a police wannabe? How about a police wannabe?
GERAGOS: I'm not so -- I know that people have been saying that it's either police wannabe or a military wannabe. I think this is somebody who is either military trained or police trained. This is an incredibly sophisticated and skilled person -- obviously deranged.
But this idea that it is a -- comparing him to a traditional serial killer, somebody who gets a thrill out of the killing -- I think here what it is is somebody who wants to paralyze -- at least first and foremost -- a geographic region and by derivation the nation.
And I think you've got something else at work here that is not your -- not what we're talking about -- not something we saw 20 or 30 years ago or somebody needs to climb a bell tower on a university and start sniping at six or seven people in a row. This is somebody who actually is trying to taunt, if not the community, the nation and that leads me to believe that you've got somebody who has got some real training and skill.
GRACE: Well, of course, therein lies the rub between a serial killer and spree killer.
Quick break, everyone. But the latest news, as of tonight, possibly the most recent victim, a father of six, 53-year-old Kenneth Bridges. And as we go to air tonight, a 13-year-old boy is still in critical condition. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight.
As of today, another possible victim of the sniper that is terrorizing the D.C. area. Kenneth Bridges, the father of six, 53-years-old, has been confirmed as the latest victim at an Exxon station. Still waiting on ballistics results to confirm the same type weapon and bullet to connect Mr. Bridges.
Back to you, Mitchell Miller. You've been covering this from the very beginning. We keep hearing about geographical typing. What is your take on that?
MILLER: Well, I'm no expert, but one possibility is there is a lot of military installations along the Northern Virginia corridor along that I-95 route. If you look at the pattern of the shootings right now, none have taken place right in the area where the installations are, but they've taken place a short distance away.
So there's been some speculation maybe, as was referred to earlier, that we may have somebody ex-military -- perhaps a military wannabe, perhaps someone who couldn't make it into the military, but somebody obviously who can shoot.
GRACE: Sheriff Carona, a question to you. He's been referred to as a sniper, a sharpshooter -- although I hate to give him that much credit. But if you're looking through a scope that magnifies, how difficult is it to take this kind of shot?
CARONA: Oh, it's very difficult to take that kind of shot.
GRACE: So he is a sharp shooter?
CARONA: Well, it's somebody that has significant training with a long rifle. That's not an easy shot to make as a civilian. And so I think Mark's concept of potentially ex-law enforcement, ex-military or a wannabe in either on of those classifications is something that I'm sure the law enforcement consortium is looking at.
GRACE: Jack Levin, there are two way -- two things law enforcement has to go on right now. The bullets, the weapon -- you know, ballistics results -- and the location of the crimes. What, if anything, do those two really tell us?
LEVIN: Well, you know, unfortunately they really don't tell us a lot. I mean we can link the killings together and we know -- you know, it was the same firearm and perhaps the killer had lived or worked in the Maryland area. He may not live or work there now, but he's certainly familiar with it. He knows how to get on and off the highways. He chooses his locations very carefully.
But, you know, I wanted to go back to what Casey said before about mass murders and serial killings and you've mentioned spree killings. We got to throw those labels away. You know, this is kind of like the adult version of Columbine. I know it is not a massacre. This sniper did not go into a parking lot at a shopping mall and spray bullets indiscriminately. He decided to do it one at a time so we're calling him a serial sniper.
But you know what? You want a profile. Here is a guy who's going to turn out, I believe, to be a white middle aged male, who externalizes responsibility, has very recently suffered some kind of catastrophic loss -- the loss of a job in a bad economy, maybe a lot of money in the stock market -- he's gone through a nasty separation or divorce, maybe even has a terminal illness and he's an expert in firearms. He's had training in firearms. Maybe the military. Maybe a police officer. But I would bet you that he goes hunting and target shooting quite a bit.
GRACE: But, Casey Jordan, why these particular victims? After looking at the criminal justice system for many, many years that is what is confounding me tonight. There is no connection between them. They range from age 13 to up in the 70s -- 72 -- they're different genders, they're different races, different walks of life. I'm finding it very difficult to connect the dots.
JORDAN: And that's because he doesn't want you to. This is the -- the success pattern of this particular shooter is that you can't connect the dots. You don't know who is going to be next. He has a very representative cross section of our society. People from different socioeconomic statuses, different age, different gender, whites, minorities -- it really doesn't matter. The message is getting out there that no one is safe and that makes him very famous and makes him very proud.
I absolutely agree with Jack's rundown of what sort of background you might discover when we catch this guy and I do believe we will. But, again, you're right. Labels don't really matter. This man is going to kill because he is getting something that speaks to his intrinsic locus, his psyche. It's meeting his needs. He doesn't really care what you think about him.
GRACE: I just hope that in his disjointed manner of killing these victims -- at long range, long distance no connection with them at all -- by seeing their families tonight -- and you know he's watching -- makes him realize the pain that he is causing.
And, Sheriff Mike Carona, on the radio tonight I heard police making a plea for him to turn himself in. Fat chance. Do you really think a guy is going to turn himself in? The prosecutor, one of the local prosecutors already mentioned the death penalty. That didn't help anything.
CARONA: No, I don't think he turns himself in.
GRACE: No way.
CARONA: No. I think that's -- that is a pipe dream. But it's also something that you have to put out there. You try to encourage that. It's not going to happen. But I will tell you, one of the things that's important in this particular case, is in all the chaos that you see -- the lack of consistency, the randomness of this event -- is really helpful from a law enforcement perspective.
We try not to jump to conclusions. What you've heard tonight about some profiles, all that is helpful. And I can tell you the FBI with their Rapid Start Program is magnificent about taking pieces of data and putting that into the computer and prioritizing those people that we would want to look at.
But because they are such random events are really going to help -- is really going to help law enforcement burrow down with -- when they pick up forensic evidence to an individual who committed this crime, or individuals who are committing this crime.
GRACE: Jack Levin, Casey Jordan, when we come back, I want to find out your take as experts, he can quit voluntarily and what did the Tarot card mean? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR HAROLD SMITH, SPOTSYLVANIA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPT.: We are look for a white van that may have had a ladder rack on top of it. We do not -- and I stress -- we do not know if it was involved in the shooting or not. It was seen in the area by several people and we do want to talk to those people in the van.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us.
Let me go straight out to you, Jack Levin. The Tarot card if definitely connected -- and I cannot imagine any other reason the Death card written to police saying, "I am God" on it would be found at the location of one of the shootings if it weren't connected. What does it mean?
LEVIN: Well, it means two things. First of all, I think it indicates that this sniper is paying close attention to the media. There are a lot of commentators over the last few days who have suggested that the sniper is playing God. Well, he's saying in response, I'm not playing, I am God.
The second thing is that the card was left as a challenge to the police. This guy is getting bored. He's gotten away with murder at least...
GRACE: Please don't say that, Jack. Don't tell me he's getting bored because what is he going to do to top himself?
LEVIN: No, the thing is, that like so many other serial killers, he's beginning to feel invincible. He's superior to the police, he believes. He looks over his shoulder, he sees no cops. This shoulder he sees no FBI agents. He thinks he's going to get away with it definitely, so why not up the ante? Let's make this more challenging. Let's leave a few cryptic clues around.
And then today what does doe? He kills a victim right in front of a state trooper. This guy is going to get caught because he is getting too cocky. He thinks he's pretty good at this and we'll get him because he's going make that fatal mistake.
GRACE: Well if you look back, Casey, for instance, Son of Sam Berkowitz communicated, had a dialogue, not only with police, but to a "New York Daily News" reporter on and on which was his undoing -- which was also Kaczynski's undoing, the Unabomber and his thousand and thousands of words dissertation he forced the media to print. That was their undoing. Is this opening up to a dialogue?
JORDAN: I believe so. I think the biggest thing about communicating with the police or the newspapers is it does heighten the stakes in terms of power and control. It shows everybody how much power they have and how little you have.
However, I don't think that this particular shooter got into the game initially to have a cat and mouse game. I think that actually happened as an afterthought almost. I think he initially did it for the thrill or to satisfy some inner need of his own, but then there was so much media attention, that he was actually seduced into the cat and mouse game. I don't I think that was his original objective but I think it will continue.
LEVIN: Nancy, I want to point out that Son of Sam was caught not because of his relationship with Jimmy Breslin from the "New York Daily News," but he had a parking ticket at 3:00 a.m. while he was killing a victim and the police traced the parking ticket back to his apartment.
And keep in mind that the Zodiac killed dozens of people in San Francisco, communicated with the police and with "60 Minutes" and all of the other reporters and he's never been caught.
GRACE: Let me go to you. Well, you're absolutely right, Jack.
Mitchell Miller, regarding that Tarot card -- it caused quite a repercussion and reaction from police.
MILLER: The Montgomery County police chief, Charles Moose, was furious with the media when that came out. It was leaked through law enforcement sources and he came out the morning that that report came out and he was absolutely lived.
And I'm wondering if some of your criminal experts here think that that information actually has damaged the investigation -- could hinder it in any way. And if, in fact, the fact that the police chief showed a lot of emotion at that news conference, if that in any way weakened him in the eyes of the sniper.
GERAGOS: I don't know about -- Nancy, I was going to say I think the reason he was so upset is because I think the profile they've constructed, at least preliminarily, where they felt the release of that information feeds this guy and what he's doing. And that by releasing that that probably hastens other killings. I think that's why he was so upset.
GRACE: Let me ask you this, Sheriff Carona, how do you deal with leaks? This could -- in retrospect -- be a devastating leak. And of course, the sheriff lashed out at the media, but it was a leak within law enforcement.
CARONA: Well, again, I wouldn't dare to second guess Chief Moose. He knows what is going on within his command structure.
I will tell you that there is always a problem with leaks when you have a high profile case and that can impact the outcome. One of the things we did early on with the media is engage them. We told them that we would brief them on an ongoing basis. We sat in the command post an hour before each media event and we made sure that we knew what we were communicating to the public, those things that we could that wouldn't impinge the investigation.
And more importantly, as you know, Nancy -- wouldn't impinge the latter prosecution once we caught the individual. Chief Moose's comments are well taken, how he deals with the leak on an internal basis is a leadership issue.
GRACE: Right. Everybody quick break. But I want to throw out this tipline number if you know anything, if you think you know anything. 888-324-9800.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back everyone.
Let's go straight to our caller from Washington.
Are you with me?
CALLER: Yes.
GRACE: Hi. What's your question?
CALLER: I'm just curious to know if anybody thinks that this is terrorist related.
GRACE: Very interesting.
Let me go you to on that, Jack Levin. You know, following 9/11, the city's healing from that, could it be terror-related?
LEVIN: Well, you know, Nancy, anything is possible. Most guys who would spray bullets at a crowd of strangers, say, are psychotic. They talk to dogs, they hallucinate, they hear voices in an empty room, and they're caught almost immediately. They're no challenge to law enforcement at all. They commit suicide right on the spot.
This guy is no psychotic. And you have to wonder, well, why -- how in the world does he have the wherewithal to get away with these kinds of crimes over such a long period?
One idea is that he's a terrorist; he's a Middle Eastern terrorist.
However, I have to say that this has all the markings of an all- American crime spree. Even though it's unique in some respects, it's also like a lot of other crimes that we've seen over many, many decades.
GERAGOS: You know, but it doesn't have to be Middle Eastern. This is a terrorist. I mean, any way you cut it, this is somebody who's terrorizing a community. I don't care what their ethnic background is...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Right.
LEVIN: Unless you're going to argue that is has political ends,then the FBI is not going to see this as an act of terrorism.
I agree with you, it does incite terror.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: He incites terror. And I don't know why this isn't something that the homeland security isn't dealing with. This is somebody who has decided to target a geographical region. It's no different -- in fact, he's already exceeded the number of deaths from anthrax.
This is somebody who is out there terrorizing a community; it should be an issue of homeland security.
GRACE: Sheriff Carona, question to you: What should citizens be looking for on the radio, on the news we hear, all the police telling the citizens to be alert, look for something -- look for what?
CARONA: Well, I think Chief Moose today laid out a pretty good description, first of all.
They have a profile of the white van. They have some information that has led them to believe that it may be one or two shooters. And they've asked the public to be watching for a number of things.
Now, again, I couldn't recite that. Chief Moose did a pretty good job and...
GRACE: Well what would you be looking for sheriff? What type of unusual behavior?
CARONA: I'd be looking for -- and I think Chief Moose brought this up -- I'd be looking for an individual who has a high degree of interest in this case, who seems to be talking about it quite a bit, maybe a high degree of anxiety at work or with his family. An individual who is doing things differently than his normal pattern.
And those are the types of tips that we're looking for in law enforcement, and I think Chief Moose is looking for.
GRACE: You made me think of something, sheriff.
Let me go to you on this, Mitchell. Has he struck on a weekend, or does he take the weekends off?
MILLER: He generally has struck during the week, and oftentimes has struck during the morning rush hour. Today it was a little bit late in the morning rush hour. But often at very, very busy times. And...
GRACE: Right. And, you know, the other times, I've got 5:20, 6:04, also during rush hour, but not on weekends.
Casey, I've only got a few moments left, literally a minute -- can he stop on his own Casey?
JORDAN: I don't believe he will.
Anything is possible. If the shooting stops, it could be for an entirely different reason. I mean, he could fall ill, he could go to prison for an entirely different crime.
So I wouldn't guess that this is going to stop. We tend not to see these things stop until the person is captured. And I would not be at all surprised if he does choose to go out in a so-called blaze of glory. Infamy, living in fame, having his name in the textbooks is what he is about. And if he has to die to do it, I think he will.
GRACE: Casey Jordan, thank you so much. Jack Levin, Sheriff Mike Carona, Mark Geragos and reporter Mitchell Miller, all with us tonight.
I'm signing off.
But I want to remind you, tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE, John McCain.
Following us: "NEWSNIGHT" with Aaron Brown.
Good night everyone.
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