Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Larry King Live
Interview with Sheron, Ronald Norman
Aired October 24, 2002 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Washington D.C.'s three week long nightmare appears to be over. Police believe they've got their snipers: 41-year-old John Allen Muhammad, also known as John Allen Williams, and 17-year-old John Lee Malvo, found early this morning asleep in their car.
But who are they? We're going to learn firsthand from John Allen Muhammad's former sister-in-law, Sheron Norman and her sister, Carol, by the way, was the sniper sister's first wife.
She spent time with both suspects this past July in Baton Rouge. Also with her is her husband, Ronald Norman, John Allen Muhammad's brother-in-law.
Then, to make sense of the last 24 hours and understand what might happen next, the latest from Montgomery County, Mitch Miller of WTOP radio.
In Washington, former FBI Director Judge William Sessions.
In New York, former FBI investigator Bill Daly.
Court TV anchor and former prosecutor Nancy Grace.
And Dr. Michael Welner a psychiatry professor who's interviewed lots of spree killers.
They're all next with more on LARRY KING LIVE.
KING: I said Sheron. It's Sheron Norman and Ronald Norman.
We'll meet them in just a moment, but first, let's check with Mitchell Miller who has been covering this story for WTOP radio and for CNN.
Want to give us a quick late update, Mitch?
MITCH MILLER, WTOP RADIO: Very quick update. It just happened. A news conference. The one we've been waiting for all day long. Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose saying tonight what he could not quite say last night, that John Lee Muhammad and John Lee Malvo are indeed suspects in the sniper shootings.
And just moments ago, this news conference ended up. It was quite an extraordinary event. We had all of the law enforcement authorities here that have been involved in this incredible investigation and we found out, as expected, that the ATF agent in charge, Michael Bouchard, announced that ballistic evidence shows that all but three of the shootings are linked to the gun that was found in that car recovered with the two men earlier today.
So authorities here feel very strongly about their case. I also should note that there was a note of somberness here this evening as the names of the 10 murder victims were read off by Montgomery County executive Doug Duncan and prosecutors will be meeting tomorrow to discuss all of the expected first-degree murder charges that will likely be brought in this case.
KING: They are still called suspects and not officially charged yet, right?
MILLER: They will officially be charged probably later this week, after the prosecutors meet. Officially, right now, Mr. Muhammad is being charged on a federal gun count and the other, the 17-year- old, the other witness -- the other suspect, rather, is being charged on a material witness count.
But in all likelihood, possibly within the next 24 hours, murder charges will be filed. We spoke at WTOP with the Montgomery County prosecutor today. He indicated that at least six first-degree murder charges likely to be filed in Montgomery County.
The other prosecutors have indicated, of course, they will be prosecuting this case to the fullest extent of the law.
KING: Thanks very much, Mitch. We'll be bringing you back later on. We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Sheron Norman. Her sister, Carol, was the first wife of the sniper suspect John Allen Muhammad, also known as John Allen Williams.
And Ronald Norman, Sheron's husband, the brother-in-law of sniper suspect John Allen Muhammad. If there's a unique irony here, Ronald Norman is a detective with the Baton Rouge, Louisiana police department.
You're in the middle of hunting for a killer now, aren't you?
RONALD NORMAN, MUHAMMAD'S FORMER BROTHER-IN-LAW: Yes, we do have a serial killer in Baton Rouge.
KING: Any update on that?
R. NORMAN: I haven't heard anything lately about it.
KING: Don't you think it's kind of weird that you're hunting for a serial killer as a detective and your own former brother-in-law is going to be charged as a serial killer?
R. NORMAN: Yes, sir, I do.
KING: When you learned it was him, what did you first think?
R. NORMAN: We were all shocked. We, at first, it was more disbelief than anything else. And afterwards, we just -- I mean, we hadn't really came to -- came to the point where we really -- it's just hard to accept.
KING: Sheron, tell me first how your sister is doing, his ex- wife.
SHERON NORMAN, MUHAMMAD'S FORMER SISTER-IN-LAW: Right now, she's very upset. She's being bombarded with a lot of calls and the media. They've been without sleep for over 24, 30 hours now. And it's a lot on her.
KING: Is she not going to do any interviews?
S. NORMAN: Probably not. By the advice of her attorney, she is probably not.
KING: And her name is Carol, right?
S. NORMAN: Her name is Carol.
KING: Now there are two other sisters.
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: Is that correct? What are they? Who are they?
S. NORMAN: Jackie and Sheila.
KING: Give me the order of age -- I mean, who's -- you don't have to give me your age, but...
S. NORMAN: Well, Sheila is the oldest then myself then Carol then Jackie. And Carol and Jackie married two brothers, John and Edward.
KING: All right. What was John like when your sister was married to him?
S. NORMAN: Well, John can be kind of arrogant at times, but, you know, you have those in-laws, sometimes have you to put up with them.
He would come over and he was like cursing, and if he would see something he wanted, he would just take it. And it may be fixed, but when he would bring it back, it's broken.
KING: His name was Williams then?
S. NORMAN: Yes. His name is John Allen Williams.
KING: When did he change it to Muhammad?
S. NORMAN: I'm not really sure when he changed his name.
Only thing I know is that when he took my nephew at age 12 to Washington. When we tried to get him back, we found out he had changed his name and had become a Muslim.
KING: He took Carol's son? S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: And ran away with him?
S. NORMAN: Well, no. He had visitation for the summer.
KING: Oh.
S. NORMAN: But at the end of the visitation he didn't return him.
KING: Did he ever come back?
S. NORMAN: Well, yes. We had to petition the courts to get him back.
KING: So you weren't a great admirer of your brother-in-law?
S. NORMAN: No.
KING: How did you feel when you learned he is the suspect in this case?
S. NORMAN: Well, like my husband said, we were -- it was hard for us to believe.
We were sitting around talking about it earlier that day, because my sister works at a school and a phone call came in, a death threat, actually, and --
KING: A death threat to your sister?
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: After the names were revealed?
S. NORMAN: Well, we didn't know that it was actually to her. We thought somebody was actually making a prank call. And later on that night, all of this broke.
KING: When did you first see your brother-in-law's name, like, come out?
S. NORMAN: Well, actually, my older sister Sheila saw it and she called and told me to turn the television on and when we turned it on, I was in like in awe to see his name up there. But we didn't see a picture when we first turned the television on.
KING: Did you ever -- by the way, Ronald, did you ever associate him with crime? I mean, you're a detective and sometimes detectives have a sixth sense.
R. NORMAN: I suppose anything like this, no. I mean, he's done things before in the past, but not anything similar to this.
KING: Did you know him when he was in the Gulf War? Was he married to your sister then?
S. NORMAN: No, I don't think so.
KING: That was after?
S. NORMAN: They were separated by that time. And divorced.
KING: Divorced already?
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: All right, tell me about this Malvo. You saw -- who is he?
S. NORMAN: We first saw him in July, around July the 23, 24, when John came down and when John came down.
KING: This summer?
S. NORMAN: This summer, this July 24. He said that was his son. Not his stepson, but his son. And they were at my oldest sister's house, Sheila, and that is when the picture was taken.
KING: That famous picture, yes.
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: That was taken at?
S. NORMAN: He didn't want to take that picture. My brother-in- law kind of forced him into taking that picture. But...
KING: Did you talk to young Mr. Malvo?
S. NORMAN: No. Actually, he stayed close to my niece, Latoria. Latoria Williams, he stayed close to her. He confided in her. He talked to her.
KING: And what did he say to her? I mean, what was going on?
S. NORMAN: He kind of mainly said that he was tired of living the way he was living, you know, from place to place.
KING: What did John say he was doing at the time, when he visited in July?
S. NORMAN: He just popped up. Stir of the moment, just popped up.
KING: Did he get to see his ex-wife.
S. NORMAN: Oh yes. He got to see her.
KING: And?
S. NORMAN: She had some choice words for him and he didn't really like it, but...
KING: Did he see his son?
S. NORMAN: Yes he did. He saw his son. That picture was cut off by his son that's on the other side. It's the three of them.
KING: What's the son doing now?
S. NORMAN: He's just trying to cope with what's going on. It's a lot.
KING: We'll be right back with Sheron Norman and her husband, Ronald Norman. He's a detective with the Baton Rouge police. And they are the former sister- and brother-in-law of the suspect, John Muhammad, formerly John Williams.
You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: We now consider them suspects in the string of shootings in Maryland, Virginia and the District of Columbia. Tomorrow, the prosecutors from all involved jurisdictions will be meeting to discuss -- to discuss the filing of charges against John Allen Muhammad and a juvenile in this case. They will make a joint public statement regarding the potential criminal charges and jurisdictional issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We've just received a statement from President Bush. I'll read it to you. The president says, "The entire nation is grateful to all of the local, state and federal law enforcement officials who have worked with such great urgency and with so little rest to solve the sniper case. The efforts resulted in the apprehension of those considered suspects in the sniper shootings. We are also grateful to the citizens who kept their eyes open and provided information to the police.
We will keep the victims and their families and friends in our thoughts and prayers. The hunt for a merciless killer has been difficult and America greatly appreciates all the good men and women who fight crime and uphold justice across this great country."
Remaining with us are Sheron Norman. Her sister, Carol, was the first ex-wife of the sniper suspect, John Allen Muhammad, formerly John Allen Williams. And her husband is Ronald Norman, the former brother-in-law of Mr. Muhammad, a detective with the Baton Rouge police force.
Mitchell Miller, who was with us earlier, joins our panel as well. He's been coving this story for WTOP and CNN.
In Washington is Judge William Sessions. Former director of the FBI from November of '87 through July of '93.
Bill Daly is here in New York, former FBI investigator, senior vice president of Control Risks Group.
Nancy Grace, the anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV, frequently on this show and sometimes the host of this show, a former prosecutor herself.
And Dr. Michael Welner. Associate professor of psychiatry at the NYU School of Medicine. He has interviewed spree killers, he is chairman of the Forensic Panel and developer of the depravity scale, an effort provide standard forensic definition of evil.
First, and Sheron and Ronald may have any comments as we go through this. But does anyone have any questions for them? Bill, do you have any questions?
BILL DALY, FMR. FBI INVESTIGATOR: Yes, actually I do. And, Ronald, being in law enforcement, I was wondering if your brother-in- law showed any interest in weapons or showed any type of interest in that type of area of work or discussed it at all?
R. NORMAN: Last time he was here, I didn't really talk with him. I mean, the times before, of course. I mean, usually young males are interested in weapons.
KING: Did he ask you the times before he would ask about...
R. NORMAN: No, we talked about guns once before, but it wasn't anything. Just conversation about just guns. Hand guns.
KING: Was he interested in police work?
R. NORMAN: No, sir, he wasn't.
KING: Nancy?
NANCY GRACE, COURT TV ANCHOR: I have a question for you, Mrs. Norman. I was wondering -- I'm looking forward -- ahead to trial strategy and I'm wondering if Mr. Muhammad exercised a lot of control over how your sister tried to raise the children. I'm just wondering if he was controlling Malvo's moves?
S. NORMAN: I think that is a good possibility. If he's involved in it.
KING: He was a controlling type person?
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: He tried to go after your sister?
S. NORMAN: No. It just the way -- the mannerisms of stuff they have.
GRACE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) what the children would eat, that he wanted them -- tried to tell his wife what to feed the children and she said, No, I'll feed them what I want to feed them.
S. NORMAN: Yes. He wants to feed -- well, when they came down, the only thing they ate while they were home was crackers and honey. And nutritional supplements, pills.
KING: Really? So he was kind of a super health freak? Doctor?
DR. MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: I met some nice kids in the green room and I was wondering if you could tell me about the people I met. Who is here?
S. NORMAN: That's my son, Rondell (ph); my daughter, Takira (ph); my niece, Trinika Tizano (ph) and daughter, Talayah (ph).
KING: They flew up today from Baton Rouge.
Do you have anything, Mitch Miller, you would ask?
MITCHELL MILLER, WTOP CORRESPONDENT: I'm curious, given we know that Mr. Muhammad had shown signs of anger, but was there any indication of this boiling rage underneath or any kind of signs that there would be any capability for something like this?
KING: Did you see anything like that, Sheron?
S. NORMAN: No. I never saw anything like that.
KING: That would lead you to think he would kill someone?
S. NORMAN: Never.
KING: Nor you?
R. NORMAN: Never.
KING: Before we get into a whole discussion with the panel, do you have any questions, Judge Sessions?
JUDGE WILLIAM SESSIONS, FRM. FBI DIRECTOR: I was curious about the man himself, whether he was working, whether he was chronically unemployed or what his manner of life style was?
S. NORMAN: We don't know that.
KING: You don't know.
S. NORMAN: We don't know that.
KING: What kind of work did he do when he was married to your sister?
S. NORMAN: He was in the military.
KING: Oh, he was in the military then?
S. NORMAN: Yes, He was in National Guard. KING: National Guard. So you've never known a job that he held?
R. NORMAN: Weld.
S. NORMAN: Yes, he used to be a welder.
KING: He was a welder. But mostly, not working.
NORMAN: No, he worked. He worked. He worked as a welder.
KING: But you don't know anything -- any job he was employed at?
NORMAN: The name of the company? No.
KING: Alright, Judge Sessions, you forecasted this would come to a successful end. What do you think of its ending?
SESSIONS: I think it's an absolute victory for the American people, who have, by the thousands, given information, cooperated with law enforcement, waited, watched, and tried to work. It's a victory for law enforcement. Particularly, local and the state law enforcement people, who work so well with the Federal support.
The federal support was tremendous across the board, whether it was ATF or the Marshall's Service or the FBI. Everybody did their work and did it perfectly and brought it together. And I think it's an amazing thing.
KING: Bill Daly, no one forecast a man and maybe a stepson or a minor.
DALY: No, but we are talking about perhaps an accomplice, someone else who is part of the observation -- perhaps assisting in the get-away -- just because of the complications of getting in and out of locations.
I'd like to say that I believe also that we look at the span of 21 days, we have 13 shootings, 10 deaths, and to be able to put this together and it seemed to be happening almost every other day, if everyone starts looking at it. Even though it may not have been, it's certainly such a dramatic impact. I believe we moved as quickly and as efficiently as you could in a difficult and different type of investigation.
KING: Doctor, do you think something might have snapped from the military -- from the Williams end to the Muhammad end?
WELNER: I'm really struck by how different this is from the spree killings that I've had experience with, and what really strikes me the most is the car. In my experience, spree killings are something more of a spontaneous event, with someone who has been thinking, fantasizing, and then something happens. And with some planning, but perhaps a lot more spontaneity, a killing erupts.
This car was outfitted, and I cannot help but wonder whether we'll learn, in the coming days. And I certainly have many questions that seem to be answered by the press and investigators, about to what degree this was planned and that's far less spontaneous than what we see with...
KING: The car was outfitted?
WELNER: It was outfitted. That took planning. That took some time.
KING: Let me get a break. Nancy Grace -- we'll have her thoughts. We'll include your phone calls. Our panel will remain. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: By the way, when I quoted from those court papers earlier about the wife being afraid of her husband and acting very irrational and threatening to destroy her life, that was the second wife, that was Mildred in her court papers, and as -- just to set the record straight, Sheron has said, to her knowledge, the suspect here never hit your sister or threatened her life in any way.
OK. We will start going around the panel, get everybody's thoughts -- Nancy.
GRACE: Well, earlier, we had been discussing the difference between a spree and a serial killing, and I have handled both of those, and as the doctor pointed out, sometimes on a spree killing when somebody acts in a fit of anger, you can see a lesser charge at trial because the person is not in their right mind always.
But, here, I don't see this as a spree killing, Larry. This is a serial killing. There is thought, there is premeditation between each killing, there is taunting of police, and I am really intrigued with how Malvo will fit into this. I'm looking ahead to trial. Will the state flip him to make him a witness against Muhammad? That is why I find it so interesting that Mrs. Norman is saying, Muhammad controlled him down to what he ate. I wouldn't be surprised if he did one of the killings under Muhammad's demand.
KING: Bill, has the FBI, to your knowledge, ever had a case in spree or serial killings, of someone under 18?
DALY: Well, I'm not aware of it. There certainly may have been some cases, but it certainly is off of the usual pattern, because they usually don't have a minor who is, in this way, somewhat complicit in the events.
KING: Judge Sessions, do you have any memory of one?
SESSIONS: No, I don't, but Bill Daly can tell you that the FBI investigation and the help they can be now forensically and analytically can be tremendous.
And apparently, there are all sorts of leads from all over the country. We have a car, we have rifles, we have so much now to be analyzed and, Bill I'm sure will tell you that that kind of pattern probably will match something that has happened in the past as well.
KING: Mitch Miller, is the community, can you sense the relief?
MILLER: Oh, Absolutely. You can really feel it. Montgomery County Executive Doug Duncan tonight here in Rockville just came out and said, basically, we are all breathing a collective sigh of relief. The feeling here is absolutely palpable. You can just see people on the street. There is more smiles, there is more people running around, doing the normal things that they do every day, going to the store, going to the gas station now. You don't have to zigzag on the way to the gas pump. You don't have to cower behind the pump.
You can actually do the things that you want to do.
One thing I think -- it is interesting going back to the car, I think -- Larry, last night we were just talking when Kelli Arena came out with the information related to the license plate, that within just a matter of hours of actually getting a specific piece of information out related to the car they were looking for and a plate, we had the people that we now believe are the suspects in this shooting in custody, and I think that is a real testament to the fact that getting the information out as quickly as possible really has helped to, hopefully, wrap up this case.
KING: Do you want to say something, Ronald?
R. NORMAN: No.
KING: Did John tell you where he was living?
S. NORMAN: No. Moving from place-to-place.
KING: So it could have been New Jersey, could have been Montgomery, could have been anywhere?
S. NORMAN: Could have been anywhere. The last we knew was Washington state. Tacoma, Washington.
KING: Who is going to file the charges here, in what jurisdiction?
DALY: Well, at this point, and certainly I'll defer to Nancy, she would know better, but I would think since these are capital offenses that the murder charges would supersede those federal charges which would be interstate issues, such as the gun charges currently being held on, or interstate...
KING: Montgomery County holds weight. They've suspended all capital punishment in Maryland, right? If Virginia holds weight, they have it weekly.
DALY: So this will be an issue, I believe, between state jurisdictions and it could be a matter of being tried in both jurisdictions separately.
KING: Would you -- if the kid were willing, Nancy, to offer information, more than you know about the adult, would you give him slack?
GRACE: Well, it depends on if I thought he had pulled a trigger, Larry. If I thought Malvo had killed someone, I would not cut him a deal. I would take the case forward against both of them, and regarding who will be tried first and where, I think it will end up being a death penalty case.
I predict they will be tried separately. There are federal charges, however, the feds very rarely try in murder cases. I predict that Virginia will seek the death penalty and we will see them in a death penalty court first.
KING: And this has to boggle your mind, Sheron.
S. NORMAN: It really does.
KING: Here is someone married to your sister, who you know, and you just saw in July with someone he's calling his stepson or son.
S. NORMAN: His son.
KING: Now this has to boggle your mind, Sheron.
S. NORMAN: It really does.
KING: Here's someone, married to your sister, who you know, who you just saw in July, with someone he's calling his stepson or son.
S. NORMAN: His son.
KING: Is now accused with a lot of evidence piling up of being a mass murderer.
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: I mean, you've got to think of everything he ever said to you, every move you ever made, wouldn't you think that?
Ronald, aren't you thinking about -- that he looked funny this one time?
R. NORMAN: I mean, it's still a lot for us to digest at this time. Just imagining him being involved in it at all.
KING: Aren't they going to have problems, Dr. Welner? The family?
WELNER: It's very difficult.
KING: How about the son?
WELNER: Very difficult. In my experience, the emotions that you're likely to experience are tremendous amount of shame. You're never going to be to get away from that. A tremendous amount of guilt and a lot of anger for what these people are putting you through.
KING: Why should they have guilt?
WELNER: Because they're family and that's just the way it goes. You can't -- you can't rationally control what emotions you're going to feel. In my experience of communicating with family members of people who have committed homicides, because we have to interview them to ask the same questions.
What you should know is, if you can't think of anything remarkable, it's because you didn't see anything remarkable. These decisions are made and often concealed because the people who make them know that you would find them unacceptable. So they betray as little to the rest of the world as they do to you.
However, it's something and it's a passage that you're going to go through, everybody who is a family member of a perpetrator of a crime goes through it. I recommend to you and to anyone else who's in this position, that it's very important for you to love your children, to make them feel good, to remind them that they are good, for you to stick together as a family and, at the same time, for you to seek your spiritual counseling because this way, even though you will have your dark moments, something will give you that sense of groundedness and it will pass.
KING: I'm going to take a break and when we come back, we're going to your phone calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BOUCHARD, ATF SPECIAL AGENT: The search of the vehicle received today yielded a weapon which is a Bushmaster XM-15 .233 caliber rifle, which was sent to the ATF lab in Rockville for analysis.
The results of forensics testing are that the weapon seized from the vehicle, occupied by Muhammad, has been forensically determined to be the murder weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: I've been calling Mr. Malvo John, but his name is -- hold it one second, Sheron.
His name is Malik Malvo, right? And it's John Muhammad and Malik Malvo. So, if I've made an error, I apologize. This has been a flow of events.
Bill Daly wanted to comment that this investigation isn't over.
DALY: Yes, Larry, we're really just building on something that the judge said is that, you know, the investigation continues. We still have some questions before we even get into court, before we even get into filing charges. There could be some other people involved here. We want to know who, in fact, owns and has registered that vehicle, what their connection is, has there been any funds provided to Mr. Muhammad or anyone else along the way to support him? What contacts has he had with anyone before this time that points to any type of ideological issues at hand? There has been this suggestion that people were concerned about domestic type terrorist or international terrorists. We talked about the other night where the international aspect seems to be very, very small chance.
But domestically, we have to explore those as being possibilities. So investigators are still hot on the trial. There are still a number of issues. Evidence needs to be sorted through, data are taken out of the car, you know, dirt samples, handwriting.
There's a lot of things that need to come together. So, this is far from over, as far as investigators are concerned.
KING: Just really beginning?
DALY: It is. We have more questions tonight than we did last night when we were here.
KING: Let's take a call. Rohnert Park, California, hello.
CALLER: Hello. My question is: With as much publicity and detail as this case has been given so far and will be given in the future, do you think it's going to spawn copycats? Because this is so unusual.
KING: Do you think so, Mr. Director Sessions? Is this the usual?
SESSIONS: It could possibly happen. What is important is that it was so very carefully revealed. There was so much that the media didn't know. Nobody knew. So there are great portions of it that have never been shown to the public yet and maybe it'll safely get to trial or trials and that will not spawn copycats. Let's hope not.
KING: Victoria, British Columbia, hello.
CALLER: Yes, good evening, Larry. My question is for Nancy. My question is: If the investigation finds that Malik Malvo was not the shooter of any of the victims, what would the charges be against him and would he be charged as an adult or as a juvenile?
GRACE: Very interesting question. First of all, I predict he will be tried ultimately as an adult. Juveniles can be bound over and treated as an adult, typically as young as 13 to 14.
So we will see him in adult court. As to whether he actually pulled the trigger, if someone helps you and premeditates along with you to commit a murder, they are just as guilty as the triggerman.
So, therefore, he can be tried for murder, unless the state flips him for his evidence.
KING: What if he just says, I was along and he made me sit there? I never did anything? I couldn't get away to squeal on him?
GRACE: Well you know what? Interesting theory. And that is where what Mrs. Norman is saying is so intriguing to me. Because if you can show a pattern where Muhammad actually had mind control over Malvo, which I'm a pretty tough nut, Larry, I don't believe in that.
But if he could force this young man to eat nothing but crackers and honey for days on end, he may have had mind control over the boy.
KING: What do you make of the relationship, doctor, between these -- Malik Malvo and John Muhammad?
WELNER: I think that anyone who probes this case and will have to do it carefully, is going to have to be open to a number of different peculiar possibilities as to why one person may have followed the other.
When you're in a position of being a forensic psychiatrist, you have to operate under the presumption of skepticism rather than following your first instinct and four things that immediately come to mind to me, which means there will be four more by tomorrow, is that one acted out of fear of the other. One acted over a shared ideology that was at the heart of the motive. One acted out of a shared sense of identity, out of what this would accomplish. One acted out of respect and a sense of duty of following what the other would tell. Or a combination of all of the above.
KING: Don't you all wonder where Malik came from?
S. NORMAN: Yes, we do.
KING: We have no knowledge.
GRACE: But I can tell you one thing: if he pulled a trigger on even one of these, he'll probably face the death penalty.
KING: To Green Valley, Arizona, hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. I'm wondering what happened to the white van that we kept hearing so much about?
KING: Bill? Where's the white van?
DALY: Well, first of all, Larry, you know, we don't know to this point whether or not there truly was a white van.
I mean, there -- as everyone said, there have been literally every time you go down the street, there's a white van with a rack on the top. The question here is when police reveal some of the information, you know, was there a change in vehicles? Is the only vehicle that potentially could have been involved in the shootings.
The eyewitnesses -- going back to eyewitnesses, it's very tricky. All the people in law enforcement will tell you is that many times, eyewitnesses are not your best witnesses at all. You need to go to the forensics, you need to go to the records, you need to build your case other than just eyesight, because people see a car, leave the scene -- again, hundreds of white vans around, they say that is the van, and meanwhile, this car was slowly puttering out of the parking lot.
KING: We will get some final thoughts from everyone on the panel right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: I'm now in the usual -- unusual position of correcting my own correction of myself, but the police are calling him John Lee Malvo, and Sheron calls him Malik Malvo, right? So apparently, he has many names, this young 17-year-old.
Let's get in another call for some thoughts. Columbus, Ohio -- hello.
CALLER: Hi. I am from Columbus. I would like to know, the young boy Malvo, where is his mother?
KING: Does anyone know?
S. NORMAN: We would like to know that also.
KING: Did he tell you who the mother was?
S. NORMAN: No.
KING: John?
S. NORMAN: He just said this is his son. This is my son.
KING: And you...
S. NORMAN: Not my stepson, my son.
KING: And nobody asked him who that might be?
S. NORMAN: No. He has lots of women, so he may have lots of children out there also.
KING: All right, Mitch, let's run some things down. We only have three total minutes left. There are going to be charges, you think, tomorrow somewhere?
MILLER: Very likely. Once these prosecutes all get together, there may be some jurisdictional issues that have been referred to earlier, but by all indications, they are going to move ahead very, very quickly with murder charges in this case.
KING: Judge Sessions, do you know if they are represented as yet?
SESSIONS: No, but I presume they will be promptly. They've been before a magistrate. Larry, you asked for our thoughts, and what I will tell you, I think, is very important. The American people should be very comforted. There were thousands of people involved with fear, with disconcertion. They have seen investigation carried out cooperatively between the law enforcement agencies, between the citizenry. Everybody has had a role to play, and it should make Americans understand that, in fact, these things can be solved, and that fear can be conquered.
KING: And we should echo what President Bush said and congratulate the work of the police in every division...
SESSIONS: Absolutely.
KING: ... and the work they did. By the way, in the program that follows with Aaron Brown, they are going to go through the investigation, how this all patterned and worked out. Bill Daly, a lot more investigation. How did they get the car, how did they get the gun?
DALY: Exactly. I'm very interested in finding out a lot of these other answers, because I think they are going to lead to some more questions, and I think it's important that we understand that when these incidents occur, these are not road maps to other terrorists. Terrorists kind of already knew how to do these things. Maybe they saw it acted out. We still have the issue, the larger issue to talk about with terrorism, which is our concern for our national safety.
I don't believe this was one of those, but it certainly was something that sent the same sense of terror through the community. I echo the sentiments, we did a great job.
KING: Will prosecutors fight over jurisdiction, Nancy?
GRACE: Definitely...
KING: They will.
GRACE: I think they will, but it will all boil down to a very long, protracted legal battle with a case built on ballistics, handwriting examples, voice ID, a possible flip with Malvo, and the most powerful tool of all, similar transactions. Each county that prosecutes for murder can bring in the transactions from other counties.
KING: Will psychiatrists be assigned -- you do forensic psychiatry -- on both sides here?
WELNER: Yes, I think that there is no question that when an identification is made that a psychiatric defense is involved, but I wanted to just point out that I don't think this is going to be a copycatted crime, because when we reflect on it, this will go down actually as a fiasco, and pretty pathetic because of the involvement of the people, and I do feel that it is essential for the people of their community to love the family that was not involved.
KING: Sheron and Ronald, thank you so much for making the trip up, and joining us and for adding to our knowledge. We wish you all the best.
S. NORMAN: We would just like to say that we are sorry for all of the families that lost their family members, and we are going to keep them in our prayers.
KING: Come back in a minute and tell you about tomorrow night. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Tomorrow night more on -- guess what. "NEWSNIGHT" is next. Here in New York, it is always great to be in his company, Aaron Brown, who is going to take us through a scenario tonight. We are going to be Ellery Queen and break this whole investigation down. Yeoman-like work again last night -- Aaron.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 24, 2002 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Washington D.C.'s three week long nightmare appears to be over. Police believe they've got their snipers: 41-year-old John Allen Muhammad, also known as John Allen Williams, and 17-year-old John Lee Malvo, found early this morning asleep in their car.
But who are they? We're going to learn firsthand from John Allen Muhammad's former sister-in-law, Sheron Norman and her sister, Carol, by the way, was the sniper sister's first wife.
She spent time with both suspects this past July in Baton Rouge. Also with her is her husband, Ronald Norman, John Allen Muhammad's brother-in-law.
Then, to make sense of the last 24 hours and understand what might happen next, the latest from Montgomery County, Mitch Miller of WTOP radio.
In Washington, former FBI Director Judge William Sessions.
In New York, former FBI investigator Bill Daly.
Court TV anchor and former prosecutor Nancy Grace.
And Dr. Michael Welner a psychiatry professor who's interviewed lots of spree killers.
They're all next with more on LARRY KING LIVE.
KING: I said Sheron. It's Sheron Norman and Ronald Norman.
We'll meet them in just a moment, but first, let's check with Mitchell Miller who has been covering this story for WTOP radio and for CNN.
Want to give us a quick late update, Mitch?
MITCH MILLER, WTOP RADIO: Very quick update. It just happened. A news conference. The one we've been waiting for all day long. Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose saying tonight what he could not quite say last night, that John Lee Muhammad and John Lee Malvo are indeed suspects in the sniper shootings.
And just moments ago, this news conference ended up. It was quite an extraordinary event. We had all of the law enforcement authorities here that have been involved in this incredible investigation and we found out, as expected, that the ATF agent in charge, Michael Bouchard, announced that ballistic evidence shows that all but three of the shootings are linked to the gun that was found in that car recovered with the two men earlier today.
So authorities here feel very strongly about their case. I also should note that there was a note of somberness here this evening as the names of the 10 murder victims were read off by Montgomery County executive Doug Duncan and prosecutors will be meeting tomorrow to discuss all of the expected first-degree murder charges that will likely be brought in this case.
KING: They are still called suspects and not officially charged yet, right?
MILLER: They will officially be charged probably later this week, after the prosecutors meet. Officially, right now, Mr. Muhammad is being charged on a federal gun count and the other, the 17-year- old, the other witness -- the other suspect, rather, is being charged on a material witness count.
But in all likelihood, possibly within the next 24 hours, murder charges will be filed. We spoke at WTOP with the Montgomery County prosecutor today. He indicated that at least six first-degree murder charges likely to be filed in Montgomery County.
The other prosecutors have indicated, of course, they will be prosecuting this case to the fullest extent of the law.
KING: Thanks very much, Mitch. We'll be bringing you back later on. We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Sheron Norman. Her sister, Carol, was the first wife of the sniper suspect John Allen Muhammad, also known as John Allen Williams.
And Ronald Norman, Sheron's husband, the brother-in-law of sniper suspect John Allen Muhammad. If there's a unique irony here, Ronald Norman is a detective with the Baton Rouge, Louisiana police department.
You're in the middle of hunting for a killer now, aren't you?
RONALD NORMAN, MUHAMMAD'S FORMER BROTHER-IN-LAW: Yes, we do have a serial killer in Baton Rouge.
KING: Any update on that?
R. NORMAN: I haven't heard anything lately about it.
KING: Don't you think it's kind of weird that you're hunting for a serial killer as a detective and your own former brother-in-law is going to be charged as a serial killer?
R. NORMAN: Yes, sir, I do.
KING: When you learned it was him, what did you first think?
R. NORMAN: We were all shocked. We, at first, it was more disbelief than anything else. And afterwards, we just -- I mean, we hadn't really came to -- came to the point where we really -- it's just hard to accept.
KING: Sheron, tell me first how your sister is doing, his ex- wife.
SHERON NORMAN, MUHAMMAD'S FORMER SISTER-IN-LAW: Right now, she's very upset. She's being bombarded with a lot of calls and the media. They've been without sleep for over 24, 30 hours now. And it's a lot on her.
KING: Is she not going to do any interviews?
S. NORMAN: Probably not. By the advice of her attorney, she is probably not.
KING: And her name is Carol, right?
S. NORMAN: Her name is Carol.
KING: Now there are two other sisters.
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: Is that correct? What are they? Who are they?
S. NORMAN: Jackie and Sheila.
KING: Give me the order of age -- I mean, who's -- you don't have to give me your age, but...
S. NORMAN: Well, Sheila is the oldest then myself then Carol then Jackie. And Carol and Jackie married two brothers, John and Edward.
KING: All right. What was John like when your sister was married to him?
S. NORMAN: Well, John can be kind of arrogant at times, but, you know, you have those in-laws, sometimes have you to put up with them.
He would come over and he was like cursing, and if he would see something he wanted, he would just take it. And it may be fixed, but when he would bring it back, it's broken.
KING: His name was Williams then?
S. NORMAN: Yes. His name is John Allen Williams.
KING: When did he change it to Muhammad?
S. NORMAN: I'm not really sure when he changed his name.
Only thing I know is that when he took my nephew at age 12 to Washington. When we tried to get him back, we found out he had changed his name and had become a Muslim.
KING: He took Carol's son? S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: And ran away with him?
S. NORMAN: Well, no. He had visitation for the summer.
KING: Oh.
S. NORMAN: But at the end of the visitation he didn't return him.
KING: Did he ever come back?
S. NORMAN: Well, yes. We had to petition the courts to get him back.
KING: So you weren't a great admirer of your brother-in-law?
S. NORMAN: No.
KING: How did you feel when you learned he is the suspect in this case?
S. NORMAN: Well, like my husband said, we were -- it was hard for us to believe.
We were sitting around talking about it earlier that day, because my sister works at a school and a phone call came in, a death threat, actually, and --
KING: A death threat to your sister?
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: After the names were revealed?
S. NORMAN: Well, we didn't know that it was actually to her. We thought somebody was actually making a prank call. And later on that night, all of this broke.
KING: When did you first see your brother-in-law's name, like, come out?
S. NORMAN: Well, actually, my older sister Sheila saw it and she called and told me to turn the television on and when we turned it on, I was in like in awe to see his name up there. But we didn't see a picture when we first turned the television on.
KING: Did you ever -- by the way, Ronald, did you ever associate him with crime? I mean, you're a detective and sometimes detectives have a sixth sense.
R. NORMAN: I suppose anything like this, no. I mean, he's done things before in the past, but not anything similar to this.
KING: Did you know him when he was in the Gulf War? Was he married to your sister then?
S. NORMAN: No, I don't think so.
KING: That was after?
S. NORMAN: They were separated by that time. And divorced.
KING: Divorced already?
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: All right, tell me about this Malvo. You saw -- who is he?
S. NORMAN: We first saw him in July, around July the 23, 24, when John came down and when John came down.
KING: This summer?
S. NORMAN: This summer, this July 24. He said that was his son. Not his stepson, but his son. And they were at my oldest sister's house, Sheila, and that is when the picture was taken.
KING: That famous picture, yes.
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: That was taken at?
S. NORMAN: He didn't want to take that picture. My brother-in- law kind of forced him into taking that picture. But...
KING: Did you talk to young Mr. Malvo?
S. NORMAN: No. Actually, he stayed close to my niece, Latoria. Latoria Williams, he stayed close to her. He confided in her. He talked to her.
KING: And what did he say to her? I mean, what was going on?
S. NORMAN: He kind of mainly said that he was tired of living the way he was living, you know, from place to place.
KING: What did John say he was doing at the time, when he visited in July?
S. NORMAN: He just popped up. Stir of the moment, just popped up.
KING: Did he get to see his ex-wife.
S. NORMAN: Oh yes. He got to see her.
KING: And?
S. NORMAN: She had some choice words for him and he didn't really like it, but...
KING: Did he see his son?
S. NORMAN: Yes he did. He saw his son. That picture was cut off by his son that's on the other side. It's the three of them.
KING: What's the son doing now?
S. NORMAN: He's just trying to cope with what's going on. It's a lot.
KING: We'll be right back with Sheron Norman and her husband, Ronald Norman. He's a detective with the Baton Rouge police. And they are the former sister- and brother-in-law of the suspect, John Muhammad, formerly John Williams.
You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: We now consider them suspects in the string of shootings in Maryland, Virginia and the District of Columbia. Tomorrow, the prosecutors from all involved jurisdictions will be meeting to discuss -- to discuss the filing of charges against John Allen Muhammad and a juvenile in this case. They will make a joint public statement regarding the potential criminal charges and jurisdictional issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We've just received a statement from President Bush. I'll read it to you. The president says, "The entire nation is grateful to all of the local, state and federal law enforcement officials who have worked with such great urgency and with so little rest to solve the sniper case. The efforts resulted in the apprehension of those considered suspects in the sniper shootings. We are also grateful to the citizens who kept their eyes open and provided information to the police.
We will keep the victims and their families and friends in our thoughts and prayers. The hunt for a merciless killer has been difficult and America greatly appreciates all the good men and women who fight crime and uphold justice across this great country."
Remaining with us are Sheron Norman. Her sister, Carol, was the first ex-wife of the sniper suspect, John Allen Muhammad, formerly John Allen Williams. And her husband is Ronald Norman, the former brother-in-law of Mr. Muhammad, a detective with the Baton Rouge police force.
Mitchell Miller, who was with us earlier, joins our panel as well. He's been coving this story for WTOP and CNN.
In Washington is Judge William Sessions. Former director of the FBI from November of '87 through July of '93.
Bill Daly is here in New York, former FBI investigator, senior vice president of Control Risks Group.
Nancy Grace, the anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV, frequently on this show and sometimes the host of this show, a former prosecutor herself.
And Dr. Michael Welner. Associate professor of psychiatry at the NYU School of Medicine. He has interviewed spree killers, he is chairman of the Forensic Panel and developer of the depravity scale, an effort provide standard forensic definition of evil.
First, and Sheron and Ronald may have any comments as we go through this. But does anyone have any questions for them? Bill, do you have any questions?
BILL DALY, FMR. FBI INVESTIGATOR: Yes, actually I do. And, Ronald, being in law enforcement, I was wondering if your brother-in- law showed any interest in weapons or showed any type of interest in that type of area of work or discussed it at all?
R. NORMAN: Last time he was here, I didn't really talk with him. I mean, the times before, of course. I mean, usually young males are interested in weapons.
KING: Did he ask you the times before he would ask about...
R. NORMAN: No, we talked about guns once before, but it wasn't anything. Just conversation about just guns. Hand guns.
KING: Was he interested in police work?
R. NORMAN: No, sir, he wasn't.
KING: Nancy?
NANCY GRACE, COURT TV ANCHOR: I have a question for you, Mrs. Norman. I was wondering -- I'm looking forward -- ahead to trial strategy and I'm wondering if Mr. Muhammad exercised a lot of control over how your sister tried to raise the children. I'm just wondering if he was controlling Malvo's moves?
S. NORMAN: I think that is a good possibility. If he's involved in it.
KING: He was a controlling type person?
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: He tried to go after your sister?
S. NORMAN: No. It just the way -- the mannerisms of stuff they have.
GRACE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) what the children would eat, that he wanted them -- tried to tell his wife what to feed the children and she said, No, I'll feed them what I want to feed them.
S. NORMAN: Yes. He wants to feed -- well, when they came down, the only thing they ate while they were home was crackers and honey. And nutritional supplements, pills.
KING: Really? So he was kind of a super health freak? Doctor?
DR. MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: I met some nice kids in the green room and I was wondering if you could tell me about the people I met. Who is here?
S. NORMAN: That's my son, Rondell (ph); my daughter, Takira (ph); my niece, Trinika Tizano (ph) and daughter, Talayah (ph).
KING: They flew up today from Baton Rouge.
Do you have anything, Mitch Miller, you would ask?
MITCHELL MILLER, WTOP CORRESPONDENT: I'm curious, given we know that Mr. Muhammad had shown signs of anger, but was there any indication of this boiling rage underneath or any kind of signs that there would be any capability for something like this?
KING: Did you see anything like that, Sheron?
S. NORMAN: No. I never saw anything like that.
KING: That would lead you to think he would kill someone?
S. NORMAN: Never.
KING: Nor you?
R. NORMAN: Never.
KING: Before we get into a whole discussion with the panel, do you have any questions, Judge Sessions?
JUDGE WILLIAM SESSIONS, FRM. FBI DIRECTOR: I was curious about the man himself, whether he was working, whether he was chronically unemployed or what his manner of life style was?
S. NORMAN: We don't know that.
KING: You don't know.
S. NORMAN: We don't know that.
KING: What kind of work did he do when he was married to your sister?
S. NORMAN: He was in the military.
KING: Oh, he was in the military then?
S. NORMAN: Yes, He was in National Guard. KING: National Guard. So you've never known a job that he held?
R. NORMAN: Weld.
S. NORMAN: Yes, he used to be a welder.
KING: He was a welder. But mostly, not working.
NORMAN: No, he worked. He worked. He worked as a welder.
KING: But you don't know anything -- any job he was employed at?
NORMAN: The name of the company? No.
KING: Alright, Judge Sessions, you forecasted this would come to a successful end. What do you think of its ending?
SESSIONS: I think it's an absolute victory for the American people, who have, by the thousands, given information, cooperated with law enforcement, waited, watched, and tried to work. It's a victory for law enforcement. Particularly, local and the state law enforcement people, who work so well with the Federal support.
The federal support was tremendous across the board, whether it was ATF or the Marshall's Service or the FBI. Everybody did their work and did it perfectly and brought it together. And I think it's an amazing thing.
KING: Bill Daly, no one forecast a man and maybe a stepson or a minor.
DALY: No, but we are talking about perhaps an accomplice, someone else who is part of the observation -- perhaps assisting in the get-away -- just because of the complications of getting in and out of locations.
I'd like to say that I believe also that we look at the span of 21 days, we have 13 shootings, 10 deaths, and to be able to put this together and it seemed to be happening almost every other day, if everyone starts looking at it. Even though it may not have been, it's certainly such a dramatic impact. I believe we moved as quickly and as efficiently as you could in a difficult and different type of investigation.
KING: Doctor, do you think something might have snapped from the military -- from the Williams end to the Muhammad end?
WELNER: I'm really struck by how different this is from the spree killings that I've had experience with, and what really strikes me the most is the car. In my experience, spree killings are something more of a spontaneous event, with someone who has been thinking, fantasizing, and then something happens. And with some planning, but perhaps a lot more spontaneity, a killing erupts.
This car was outfitted, and I cannot help but wonder whether we'll learn, in the coming days. And I certainly have many questions that seem to be answered by the press and investigators, about to what degree this was planned and that's far less spontaneous than what we see with...
KING: The car was outfitted?
WELNER: It was outfitted. That took planning. That took some time.
KING: Let me get a break. Nancy Grace -- we'll have her thoughts. We'll include your phone calls. Our panel will remain. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: By the way, when I quoted from those court papers earlier about the wife being afraid of her husband and acting very irrational and threatening to destroy her life, that was the second wife, that was Mildred in her court papers, and as -- just to set the record straight, Sheron has said, to her knowledge, the suspect here never hit your sister or threatened her life in any way.
OK. We will start going around the panel, get everybody's thoughts -- Nancy.
GRACE: Well, earlier, we had been discussing the difference between a spree and a serial killing, and I have handled both of those, and as the doctor pointed out, sometimes on a spree killing when somebody acts in a fit of anger, you can see a lesser charge at trial because the person is not in their right mind always.
But, here, I don't see this as a spree killing, Larry. This is a serial killing. There is thought, there is premeditation between each killing, there is taunting of police, and I am really intrigued with how Malvo will fit into this. I'm looking ahead to trial. Will the state flip him to make him a witness against Muhammad? That is why I find it so interesting that Mrs. Norman is saying, Muhammad controlled him down to what he ate. I wouldn't be surprised if he did one of the killings under Muhammad's demand.
KING: Bill, has the FBI, to your knowledge, ever had a case in spree or serial killings, of someone under 18?
DALY: Well, I'm not aware of it. There certainly may have been some cases, but it certainly is off of the usual pattern, because they usually don't have a minor who is, in this way, somewhat complicit in the events.
KING: Judge Sessions, do you have any memory of one?
SESSIONS: No, I don't, but Bill Daly can tell you that the FBI investigation and the help they can be now forensically and analytically can be tremendous.
And apparently, there are all sorts of leads from all over the country. We have a car, we have rifles, we have so much now to be analyzed and, Bill I'm sure will tell you that that kind of pattern probably will match something that has happened in the past as well.
KING: Mitch Miller, is the community, can you sense the relief?
MILLER: Oh, Absolutely. You can really feel it. Montgomery County Executive Doug Duncan tonight here in Rockville just came out and said, basically, we are all breathing a collective sigh of relief. The feeling here is absolutely palpable. You can just see people on the street. There is more smiles, there is more people running around, doing the normal things that they do every day, going to the store, going to the gas station now. You don't have to zigzag on the way to the gas pump. You don't have to cower behind the pump.
You can actually do the things that you want to do.
One thing I think -- it is interesting going back to the car, I think -- Larry, last night we were just talking when Kelli Arena came out with the information related to the license plate, that within just a matter of hours of actually getting a specific piece of information out related to the car they were looking for and a plate, we had the people that we now believe are the suspects in this shooting in custody, and I think that is a real testament to the fact that getting the information out as quickly as possible really has helped to, hopefully, wrap up this case.
KING: Do you want to say something, Ronald?
R. NORMAN: No.
KING: Did John tell you where he was living?
S. NORMAN: No. Moving from place-to-place.
KING: So it could have been New Jersey, could have been Montgomery, could have been anywhere?
S. NORMAN: Could have been anywhere. The last we knew was Washington state. Tacoma, Washington.
KING: Who is going to file the charges here, in what jurisdiction?
DALY: Well, at this point, and certainly I'll defer to Nancy, she would know better, but I would think since these are capital offenses that the murder charges would supersede those federal charges which would be interstate issues, such as the gun charges currently being held on, or interstate...
KING: Montgomery County holds weight. They've suspended all capital punishment in Maryland, right? If Virginia holds weight, they have it weekly.
DALY: So this will be an issue, I believe, between state jurisdictions and it could be a matter of being tried in both jurisdictions separately.
KING: Would you -- if the kid were willing, Nancy, to offer information, more than you know about the adult, would you give him slack?
GRACE: Well, it depends on if I thought he had pulled a trigger, Larry. If I thought Malvo had killed someone, I would not cut him a deal. I would take the case forward against both of them, and regarding who will be tried first and where, I think it will end up being a death penalty case.
I predict they will be tried separately. There are federal charges, however, the feds very rarely try in murder cases. I predict that Virginia will seek the death penalty and we will see them in a death penalty court first.
KING: And this has to boggle your mind, Sheron.
S. NORMAN: It really does.
KING: Here is someone married to your sister, who you know, and you just saw in July with someone he's calling his stepson or son.
S. NORMAN: His son.
KING: Now this has to boggle your mind, Sheron.
S. NORMAN: It really does.
KING: Here's someone, married to your sister, who you know, who you just saw in July, with someone he's calling his stepson or son.
S. NORMAN: His son.
KING: Is now accused with a lot of evidence piling up of being a mass murderer.
S. NORMAN: Yes.
KING: I mean, you've got to think of everything he ever said to you, every move you ever made, wouldn't you think that?
Ronald, aren't you thinking about -- that he looked funny this one time?
R. NORMAN: I mean, it's still a lot for us to digest at this time. Just imagining him being involved in it at all.
KING: Aren't they going to have problems, Dr. Welner? The family?
WELNER: It's very difficult.
KING: How about the son?
WELNER: Very difficult. In my experience, the emotions that you're likely to experience are tremendous amount of shame. You're never going to be to get away from that. A tremendous amount of guilt and a lot of anger for what these people are putting you through.
KING: Why should they have guilt?
WELNER: Because they're family and that's just the way it goes. You can't -- you can't rationally control what emotions you're going to feel. In my experience of communicating with family members of people who have committed homicides, because we have to interview them to ask the same questions.
What you should know is, if you can't think of anything remarkable, it's because you didn't see anything remarkable. These decisions are made and often concealed because the people who make them know that you would find them unacceptable. So they betray as little to the rest of the world as they do to you.
However, it's something and it's a passage that you're going to go through, everybody who is a family member of a perpetrator of a crime goes through it. I recommend to you and to anyone else who's in this position, that it's very important for you to love your children, to make them feel good, to remind them that they are good, for you to stick together as a family and, at the same time, for you to seek your spiritual counseling because this way, even though you will have your dark moments, something will give you that sense of groundedness and it will pass.
KING: I'm going to take a break and when we come back, we're going to your phone calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BOUCHARD, ATF SPECIAL AGENT: The search of the vehicle received today yielded a weapon which is a Bushmaster XM-15 .233 caliber rifle, which was sent to the ATF lab in Rockville for analysis.
The results of forensics testing are that the weapon seized from the vehicle, occupied by Muhammad, has been forensically determined to be the murder weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: I've been calling Mr. Malvo John, but his name is -- hold it one second, Sheron.
His name is Malik Malvo, right? And it's John Muhammad and Malik Malvo. So, if I've made an error, I apologize. This has been a flow of events.
Bill Daly wanted to comment that this investigation isn't over.
DALY: Yes, Larry, we're really just building on something that the judge said is that, you know, the investigation continues. We still have some questions before we even get into court, before we even get into filing charges. There could be some other people involved here. We want to know who, in fact, owns and has registered that vehicle, what their connection is, has there been any funds provided to Mr. Muhammad or anyone else along the way to support him? What contacts has he had with anyone before this time that points to any type of ideological issues at hand? There has been this suggestion that people were concerned about domestic type terrorist or international terrorists. We talked about the other night where the international aspect seems to be very, very small chance.
But domestically, we have to explore those as being possibilities. So investigators are still hot on the trial. There are still a number of issues. Evidence needs to be sorted through, data are taken out of the car, you know, dirt samples, handwriting.
There's a lot of things that need to come together. So, this is far from over, as far as investigators are concerned.
KING: Just really beginning?
DALY: It is. We have more questions tonight than we did last night when we were here.
KING: Let's take a call. Rohnert Park, California, hello.
CALLER: Hello. My question is: With as much publicity and detail as this case has been given so far and will be given in the future, do you think it's going to spawn copycats? Because this is so unusual.
KING: Do you think so, Mr. Director Sessions? Is this the usual?
SESSIONS: It could possibly happen. What is important is that it was so very carefully revealed. There was so much that the media didn't know. Nobody knew. So there are great portions of it that have never been shown to the public yet and maybe it'll safely get to trial or trials and that will not spawn copycats. Let's hope not.
KING: Victoria, British Columbia, hello.
CALLER: Yes, good evening, Larry. My question is for Nancy. My question is: If the investigation finds that Malik Malvo was not the shooter of any of the victims, what would the charges be against him and would he be charged as an adult or as a juvenile?
GRACE: Very interesting question. First of all, I predict he will be tried ultimately as an adult. Juveniles can be bound over and treated as an adult, typically as young as 13 to 14.
So we will see him in adult court. As to whether he actually pulled the trigger, if someone helps you and premeditates along with you to commit a murder, they are just as guilty as the triggerman.
So, therefore, he can be tried for murder, unless the state flips him for his evidence.
KING: What if he just says, I was along and he made me sit there? I never did anything? I couldn't get away to squeal on him?
GRACE: Well you know what? Interesting theory. And that is where what Mrs. Norman is saying is so intriguing to me. Because if you can show a pattern where Muhammad actually had mind control over Malvo, which I'm a pretty tough nut, Larry, I don't believe in that.
But if he could force this young man to eat nothing but crackers and honey for days on end, he may have had mind control over the boy.
KING: What do you make of the relationship, doctor, between these -- Malik Malvo and John Muhammad?
WELNER: I think that anyone who probes this case and will have to do it carefully, is going to have to be open to a number of different peculiar possibilities as to why one person may have followed the other.
When you're in a position of being a forensic psychiatrist, you have to operate under the presumption of skepticism rather than following your first instinct and four things that immediately come to mind to me, which means there will be four more by tomorrow, is that one acted out of fear of the other. One acted over a shared ideology that was at the heart of the motive. One acted out of a shared sense of identity, out of what this would accomplish. One acted out of respect and a sense of duty of following what the other would tell. Or a combination of all of the above.
KING: Don't you all wonder where Malik came from?
S. NORMAN: Yes, we do.
KING: We have no knowledge.
GRACE: But I can tell you one thing: if he pulled a trigger on even one of these, he'll probably face the death penalty.
KING: To Green Valley, Arizona, hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. I'm wondering what happened to the white van that we kept hearing so much about?
KING: Bill? Where's the white van?
DALY: Well, first of all, Larry, you know, we don't know to this point whether or not there truly was a white van.
I mean, there -- as everyone said, there have been literally every time you go down the street, there's a white van with a rack on the top. The question here is when police reveal some of the information, you know, was there a change in vehicles? Is the only vehicle that potentially could have been involved in the shootings.
The eyewitnesses -- going back to eyewitnesses, it's very tricky. All the people in law enforcement will tell you is that many times, eyewitnesses are not your best witnesses at all. You need to go to the forensics, you need to go to the records, you need to build your case other than just eyesight, because people see a car, leave the scene -- again, hundreds of white vans around, they say that is the van, and meanwhile, this car was slowly puttering out of the parking lot.
KING: We will get some final thoughts from everyone on the panel right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: I'm now in the usual -- unusual position of correcting my own correction of myself, but the police are calling him John Lee Malvo, and Sheron calls him Malik Malvo, right? So apparently, he has many names, this young 17-year-old.
Let's get in another call for some thoughts. Columbus, Ohio -- hello.
CALLER: Hi. I am from Columbus. I would like to know, the young boy Malvo, where is his mother?
KING: Does anyone know?
S. NORMAN: We would like to know that also.
KING: Did he tell you who the mother was?
S. NORMAN: No.
KING: John?
S. NORMAN: He just said this is his son. This is my son.
KING: And you...
S. NORMAN: Not my stepson, my son.
KING: And nobody asked him who that might be?
S. NORMAN: No. He has lots of women, so he may have lots of children out there also.
KING: All right, Mitch, let's run some things down. We only have three total minutes left. There are going to be charges, you think, tomorrow somewhere?
MILLER: Very likely. Once these prosecutes all get together, there may be some jurisdictional issues that have been referred to earlier, but by all indications, they are going to move ahead very, very quickly with murder charges in this case.
KING: Judge Sessions, do you know if they are represented as yet?
SESSIONS: No, but I presume they will be promptly. They've been before a magistrate. Larry, you asked for our thoughts, and what I will tell you, I think, is very important. The American people should be very comforted. There were thousands of people involved with fear, with disconcertion. They have seen investigation carried out cooperatively between the law enforcement agencies, between the citizenry. Everybody has had a role to play, and it should make Americans understand that, in fact, these things can be solved, and that fear can be conquered.
KING: And we should echo what President Bush said and congratulate the work of the police in every division...
SESSIONS: Absolutely.
KING: ... and the work they did. By the way, in the program that follows with Aaron Brown, they are going to go through the investigation, how this all patterned and worked out. Bill Daly, a lot more investigation. How did they get the car, how did they get the gun?
DALY: Exactly. I'm very interested in finding out a lot of these other answers, because I think they are going to lead to some more questions, and I think it's important that we understand that when these incidents occur, these are not road maps to other terrorists. Terrorists kind of already knew how to do these things. Maybe they saw it acted out. We still have the issue, the larger issue to talk about with terrorism, which is our concern for our national safety.
I don't believe this was one of those, but it certainly was something that sent the same sense of terror through the community. I echo the sentiments, we did a great job.
KING: Will prosecutors fight over jurisdiction, Nancy?
GRACE: Definitely...
KING: They will.
GRACE: I think they will, but it will all boil down to a very long, protracted legal battle with a case built on ballistics, handwriting examples, voice ID, a possible flip with Malvo, and the most powerful tool of all, similar transactions. Each county that prosecutes for murder can bring in the transactions from other counties.
KING: Will psychiatrists be assigned -- you do forensic psychiatry -- on both sides here?
WELNER: Yes, I think that there is no question that when an identification is made that a psychiatric defense is involved, but I wanted to just point out that I don't think this is going to be a copycatted crime, because when we reflect on it, this will go down actually as a fiasco, and pretty pathetic because of the involvement of the people, and I do feel that it is essential for the people of their community to love the family that was not involved.
KING: Sheron and Ronald, thank you so much for making the trip up, and joining us and for adding to our knowledge. We wish you all the best.
S. NORMAN: We would just like to say that we are sorry for all of the families that lost their family members, and we are going to keep them in our prayers.
KING: Come back in a minute and tell you about tomorrow night. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Tomorrow night more on -- guess what. "NEWSNIGHT" is next. Here in New York, it is always great to be in his company, Aaron Brown, who is going to take us through a scenario tonight. We are going to be Ellery Queen and break this whole investigation down. Yeoman-like work again last night -- Aaron.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
