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CNN Larry King Live

The Power of Makeup

Aired November 15, 2003 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the power of make-up, its secrets revealed with Trish McEvoy, the renowned beauty expert whose one of the queens of the cosmetic industry.
TV and radio personality, Leeza Gibbons, now spokeswoman for a new make-up system.

Actress, Arlene Dahl, the silver-screen beauty, has written books and a syndicated column on the subject, even hosted a beauty show on ABC, back in the 60s.

Judy Licht, senior correspondent on the WE Network's "Full Frontal Fashion." Her daughter, fashion designer, Jesse Della Femina.

And Sarah Hughes, Olympic Gold Medalist in figure skating, where the pressure's always on to look you most beautiful.

They're all next, looking good, on LARRY KING LIVE.

We have a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE for you tonight: The world of make-up and beauty, and all sorts of things. And no better person to lead the panel than Trish McEvoy. Trish is the author of the new book, "The Power of Make-Up, Looking Your Level Best At Every Age."

Why did -- how did you get into make-up, as a life?

TRISH MCEVOY, AUTHOR, "THE POWER OF MAKE-UP": I got into make-up when I was a young, young child. My grandmother owned perfumeries, and I've always been surrounded by make-up.

KING: Why not perfume?

MCEVOY: I love perfume, too. I'm in that business, also. But make-up and perfume they all go together.

KING: Well, how did you start? Where you a make-up girl in a beauty parlor?

MCEVOY: I was a make-up girl in my grandmother's perfumery. I was four-years old, crawling around, and just -- it just came very, very naturally. I started behind the cosmetic counter. I was 18 and that's where it started.

KING: Is it a -- is this a -- I'll get to the whole panel in a minute. But we're starting first with Trish's book. Is this a -- are people natural at it? Or is this taught?

MCEVOY: Some people are natural. And many women are taught. It just depends on your comfort zone. Some women like skating, skate naturally. They're taught how to skate. But it's a natural ability. Others, they've got to practice a little more.

KING: Trish McEvoy is the founder, by the way, of the Trish McEvoy Beauty, and co-founder of the Trish McEvoy-Dr. Ronald Sherman's Skin Care Center, in New York. And the book, "The Power of Make-Up" is now out.

Arlene Dahl is, of course, the actress, businesswoman, astrologer, internationally syndicated beauty columnist for the "Chicago Tribune," in "New York News." She also had a program called "Arlene Dahl's Beauty Spot," on ABC in the mid-60s. She's working on her 15 book, "Lasting Beauty, For Women Over 40, and Through Their 90s." And this is going to be published by Simon and Schuster.

Was make-up powerful in your life? Important in your life?

DAHL: The most important thing, I wouldn't be a star with it. At 13, I was all one color. My skin was white. My eyes were white or light, and my hair was light. And until I was in a school play, and put on -- somebody put on mascara on me, I had no face. I was all one color. I lost -- people lost me on the pillow.

So, make-up was very, very important to my life. I didn't even know I was pretty. I thought I was just ordinary, just one color, until mascara changed my life.

KING: Did we not go through an era where, when was it, the 60s, women stopped wearing make-up?

DAHL: Oh, yes. And they threw away their bras. Those who did needed it the most, of course.

(LAUGHTER)

DAHL: Make-up is very, very important, especially to blonds and redheads.

KING: Leeza Gibbons is in Los Angeles. She's the TV news journalist and host, radio personality, producer and businesswoman. Founder of the Leeza Gibbons Memory Foundation, a nonprofit organization working on Alzheimer's issues, and she's spokesperson for the new make-up system called Sheer Cover. What is that?

LEEZA GIBBONS, TV RADIO HOST: And I feel so alone out here without all of you. I wish I can be in that energy of powerful women.

Sheer Cover is as Trish McEvoy says so beautifully; it's a mineral-based make-up. But I love Trish's book, where she says the "power of make-up," because this product, like with all make-ups, and I think that all the women would agree, make-up is possibility. It unleashes our potential. And allows to create who we are and announce who we are to the world. And I think that's important, because it allows us to be confident, and that's the most beautiful thing in the world.

KING: How about those who might say, Leeza, that it's false in a sense? It's an exterior. It's not you?

GIBBONS: Look, we know people form impressions within the first few minutes. Anyone's who had their teeth straightened, is that false? Anyone -- any men who want to put hair on their head if they don't have it -- is that false? You know, you want to be the best you can be. Real beauty is about striving to be your very best everyday.

And with a product, like Sheer Cover, if you are, as Trish says in her book, a Level 1, someone who is comfortable with just the slightest bit of make-up, and really wants to even out skin tones, then you can do that, with Sheer Cover. If you have something that you want to cover up, if you have a complexion challenge, then you can do that with Sheer Cover.

And most women will tell you, it's the time we spend really looking at ourselves in the mirror, where we learn how the light falls off our face. We learn how to deal with make-up. And I think, as we get older, we get more confident about it. And we understand what works for us. And we stop becoming so vulnerable to all the trends and fade.

KING: Sara Hughes, earned the 2002 Olympic Gold Medal in women's figure skating. She's a student at Yale. What are you majoring in?

SARAH HUGHES, 2002 OLYMPIC GOLD FIGURE SKATING: I don't know yet. Undecided. I've only been there nine weeks.

KING: Oh, you don't have to pick a major right away?

HUGHES: No. I think we have until the end of our sophomore year.

KING: I don't think they have a major in make-up, do they?

HUGHES: Not yet.

KING: What got you interested in this subject?

HUGHES: Well, from skating at an early age, we always would perform. And so, so people would put make-up on me. And I was always a little rebellious. And I wanted to be like, no. I like it this way. So, I learned how to do my own make-up.

And really when I was about 15 and I kind of went through a transformation in my skating. I really wanted to become my character, and I was skating to a Don Quixote. So, I went and I just tried to get every tip I could to learn how to just really refine how I did my make-up, and become the character. And it really helped me go into a place where I could become the character on the ice.

KING: So, your make-up is essential to performance, no matter where you're performing?

HUGHES: No. That's very true. Yes.

KING: Has it affected you, in your social life?

HUGHES: Yes. I would say that. I think it's important to look nice, and be presentable. And you know, you really -- just learning how to put on your own make-up and knowing what you like, you learn kind of more who you are, and how you want to be presented. And I think it kind of introduces you to other people, before you even open your mouth.

KING: OK. Judy Licht is the broadcast journalist, senior correspondent, and creative director of the "Full Frontal Fashion" on the WE Network. What do we mean by full frontal fashion? Sounds a little erotic.

JUDY LICHT, WE NETWORK SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: It worked. It got your attention.

KING: Damned right.

LICHT: Actually, I started in news, but we started this program, a bunch of years ago, to cover the fashion shows, almost like the marathon, with a sports model. And we tried to find a description for it. And "Full Frontal" really got everybody's attention: men, women, and everybody in between. And so it worked. And now we have a half- hour show, on WE, we do full-time coverage, during fashion -- all the fashion weeks.

KING: How important to you is McEvoy? Trish McEvoy?

LICHT: Well, Trish...

KING: In the world of fashion and perfumery, and make-up...

LICHT: To be honest, I think Trish is the best at what she does, for a reason. We became friends years ago, when I first covered her, when she was starting out her company. And I think make-up -- let's face it. Most make-up is the same. I mean some of the quality is better. Some isn't. It's about how you use it. It's about the interplay between the people teaching you and your learning.

And what Trish does, both one on one, and when she does her make- up groups, and how she teaches her trainers in the store, is to work with the woman. Understand what the woman's life is like. Understand what the woman feels like about herself. And then give her what she needs to fulfill her life.

KING: So, if you're saying your knowing what to do with the $2 make-up, as opposed to not knowing what to do with an $8 make-up, you'd bet on the $2 make-up?

LICHT: You're darn right. And the thing about Trish's system though, is the education is just as important as the product.

KING: We're going to take a break. When we come back, one more member of our panel, and we'll get a full-frontal discussion about this. And we'll talk with Jesse Della Femina, Judy Licht's daughter, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back on, LARRY KING LIVE. We're talking about make- up, emphasizing Trish McEvoy's new book, "The Power of Make-Up, Looking Your Level Best At Every Age."

And the final member of our panel is Judy Licht -- is Jesse Della Femina, Judy Licht's daughter, fashion designer. Got into the business at age 15.

That means Jerry is your father, right?

JESSIE DELLA FEMINA, FASHION DESIGNER: Yes.

KING: Jerry and I went high school together.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: So, that's how old we are. We went to high school in Brooklyn. You must have heard of Lafayette.

FEMINA: I've heard lots about Lafayette.

KING: Are you and Jerry still married?

LICHT: Yes we are, in spite of what people think. No. No. We are married.

KING: It's smart marrying a Licht. And you're a fashion designer?

FEMINA: I am.

KING: At age nine? How old are you?

FEMINA: No, I'm 18 now. I started when I was 14. I started making clothes, and selling them at 15. Trish actually helped me out. By -- when I first started, she did make-up for all of my models. She did my make-up. She donated tons of make-up to gift bags for fund- raisers I had. So...

KING: Do you design for young people, only?

FEMINA: No. I don't really design for a specific age group. It's -- I guess, very much like make-up, it's more of a lifestyle. There are people that wear my clothes that are in their late 70s, and people that are eight or nine. It depends more on a body type, and just a way of living than an actual age.

KING: All Right. You write about levels of make-up, Trish. Right? And you write about make-up, Level 1, make-up not a driving passion. Level 2, make-up is an everyday essential. Level 3, make-up is a muse of expression and a natural look, right? How would you describe our people here?

Arlene Dahl?

MCEVOY: Level 3...

KING: Level 3...

MCEVOY: The details, the details, the details. Va-va-voom- glamour.

DAHL: Well, I had the best teachers in the world when I was at MGM. You know, the make-up artists were there doing...

KING: But they were doing make-up for the screen...

DAHL: Yes.

KING: ...which is different than doing make-up for the street, right?

DAHL: Yes and no. The same principles apply.

KING: They do?

DAHL: Yes. And unless you have a beautiful canvas on which to put your make-up, and I'm sure Trish would agree, it doesn't stay. It blotches...

KING: The canvas has to be good.

DAHL: The skin...

KING: Right.

DAHL: ... is very important.

KING: Sarah, Trish.

MCEVOY: Level 2. Level 1. Level 3. Depending on her role: if she's at school, she's a Level 1. On ice, it could be 2 or 3. What do you think?

HUGHES: I would agree. I really vary on each day, it depends. Some days, I'm a Level 1, 2, and 3 altogether. And well, if you start out with school, it's more minimalistic. And then I have practice, and then I have a performance. And afterwards, sometimes, there's a party and I still like to stay the whole three.

MCEVOY: But you know your style. I heard you in that make-up room. Speak about how you communicate with make-up artists. I think that's so important.

HUGHES: Yes, well...

KING: You have to tell them what you want, right?

MCEVOY: Yes. HUGHES: I do. Yes. Well, I really know what I like. And I also like, sometimes, when other people put on my make-up. But 99 percent of the time I do the make-up myself, because I really know what I like. And you know, I didn't want to tell anybody what to do. I just like to kind of guide people along what I like. And then I really like the result.

KING: Trish, is it a contradiction to say, you need make-up for a natural look?

MCEVOY: No. You enhance what nature gives you.

KING: But it is a natural look.

MCEVOY: It is a natural look.

KING: Now, what does Leeza Gibbons on your list of levels?

MCEVOY: Oh, I just think she's magnificent. She's a Level 2 and sometimes a Level 3. And I'm sure many times a Level 1. What do you think, Leeza?

GIBBONS: You're right on it. And I love when you talk about in your book how we do -- we -- we glide effortlessly between those levels. But with make-up and women, the time that we spend, you know, really nurturing ourselves in that way is very valuable. And I think that for us to be unapologetic about it is really essential.

The beauty business has been used against us, I think, to make us feel less than for a long time. And it's time for us to be empowered by it, to take control of it, to learn how to use it.

And with Sheer Cover, it's a powder; you use a brush to put it on. Trish was one of the first people to say how meaningful and important brushes are. And you can use a little bit or a lot. But if you have something to cover up. But whatever you're doing, the essence of it is to let the real you shine through. And I don't think any of us wants to wear a mask. We don't want to pretend that we're not ourselves. We want to be our best versions of ourselves.

MCEVOY: Absolutely.

KING: She said that right on the mark.

OK, what is Judy?

MCEVOY: I've seen Judy be a Level 1 and a Level 2. I never see her being a Level 3. What do you think, Judy?

LICHT: Well, I'd like to do a Level 3. But the problem is I was in the news business for so long, and they don't take you seriously if you go to Level 3. Trouble is when you get older, you need the Level 3 but you want to look like the Level 1.

(LAUGHTER)

LICHT: That's just the truth.

KING: What's the essential of Level 3 that you're not?

LICHT: Well, you know, really knowing the tricks. Really putting it on very well so that you really mask a lot of stuff.

KING: Arlene would know that.

LICHT: You know, I bow to Arlene. I'd like her to -- well, actually Trish has taught me but I'm not such a good learner.

But you know, Larry. I think this goes beyond what level we're on. There's a new book called "The Substance of Style." It's a very serious book written by a econ -- economics journalist named Virginia Postrel. And she talks about something called "the aesthetic imperative." I know it's a little intellectual for a talk about makeup. But the bottom-line is we live in an age of design. Men's looks and women's looks are more important than ever.

Women always knew that to be sexually attractive or to be performers, you had to look good. But now, people who look good make more money, men and women. The tools, whether it's make-up, plastic surgery, dermatology are there. And if you don't get with it, you're imperiling your own economic future even if you're not a performer. And I think that's why it's important.

KING: Trish, what is Jessie?

MCEVOY: Level 1. She's a natural beauty.

FEMINA: Thank you.

MCEVOY: Would you agree with that Jessie?

FEMINA: Oh, I don't know.

MCEVOY: Depends on the day?

FEMINA: It depends on the day.

MCEVOY: And the mood.

FEMINA: I have not left the house without a full face of foundation since I was in third grade?

LICHT: Well, it was actually third or fourth grade.

FEMINA: I'm dead serious.

KING: You're kidding?

FEMINA: No. I'm dead serious.

LICHT: No. No. She didn't know what she was doing. So it would be orange and I'd get really pissed off. In fact, as a birthday -- no, as a graduation present from middle school, I sent her to Trish to do something that would look like a schoolgirl look, but wouldn't have that God-awful orange stuff that she felt the need to put on.

KING: We're going to go to break. And when we come back, we'll ask a question that all men ask. Why the hell does it take so long? We'll be right back.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Our panel on makeup and beauty and the like, with an outstanding panel of guests, five of them here and one -- I'll re-introduce them in the next segment.

All right. Why does it take so long, Trish?

MCEVOY: It doesn't always...

KING: Come on!

MCEVOY: ... takes so long.

KING: You're ready? You're ready? Are you ready?

MCEVOY: It does not. It does not. If you're a Level 1...

(CROSSTALK)

MCEVOY: If you're a Level 1 it takes a second, because you're not willing to wear a lot of product. If you're a Level 2, you're going to spend the time. And it doesn't take that much.

KING: My wife is a Level 9.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: What do you do with a Level 9? Leeza Gibbons knows Shawn, you know Shawn.

MCEVOY: Your wife is about the details. Of course, I know.

KING: About the details?

GIBBONS: That is so not true.

KING: Come one! Are you kidding?

MCEVOY: She's all about the details.

DAHL: She's a knockout. Whatever it takes to look your best is the time you should spend. Now, I haven't worn foundation at all, because I have stayed out of the sun. So my skin is still young looking. And I don't have wrinkles here and there, and the neck and so on.

KING: No you don't.

DAHL: But and I don't smoke. Sun, smoke and fad diets are the worst things for the skin. And therefore, you shouldn't do it.

KING: Does it take you a long time, Sarah?

HUGHES: No. Actually it doesn't. I've learned to do it very quickly, because usually, I'm running late.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Take you a long time, Judy?

LICHT: Yes. I can't lie.

FEMINA: It does. Tell them how long.

LICHT: I mean she's witnessed my husband screaming at me.

FEMINA: Everyday.

MCEVOY: How long?

LICHT: I have a trick for you Larry. Do what my husband does. Give her the wrong time. He started lying by half an hour.

DAHL: Mine too. Mine too.

KING: How about just leave and meet her there?

GIBBONS: But Larry...

KING: Yes.

GIBBONS: Larry, you know this as well as anybody. Sometimes it's not that physically it takes the time to apply the makeup, but that's time that is very intimate for a woman. In many cases if we're nervous, like Shawn, when she's putting on an event or when she's making an appearance. Sometimes we take that time for ourselves because we're either mentally bolstering ourselves for what it is that we need to face. And smart men, like you, will allow us that because it's not just...

KING: Ha ha.

GIBBONS: Look, with Sheer Cover I truly can be out the door in five minutes. Concealer, blush on the mineral powder and done. But I like to take longer often because I kind of get myself set for the day. And that's important.

KING: Does it feel good, Trish to do -- I've never done -- I've been made-up every night for television, of course. But...

MCEVOY: How does it feel?

KING: It's something I do. I sit there and it's finished. But to the girl, the woman doing it...

MCEVOY: Mm-hmm. KING: ... does it -- is it a high? Is it...

MCEVOY: I wouldn't say it is a high but it's a time for self- reflection, a time for planning the day. It's my....

KING: What do you think about?

MCEVOY: ... personal time. Depends on the day.

KING: I watch...

MCEVOY: Today, I thought about you...

KING: What are they thinking about?

MCEVOY: ... and being on this show.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: But I mean do you think about this is the way my eye looks? Or do you thinking...

MCEVOY: Some day is yes. Some day is no.

KING: ... Herbie is in the deli now. I'm going to meet him in an hour.

MCEVOY: If it's a good day, I don't think about this is the way my eye looks. If I woke up and it's a bad day, I think about it plenty. Absolutely.

DAHL: Then she gets out the tea bags.

(LAUGHTER)

LICHT: I think it's a time of meditation. I know for me, it's a time to focus on looking good. But I actually -- I don't meditate or do yoga and the time that I get to think about what I have to think about for the day. What has to get done, what doesn't have to get done. And still get an eye that's sort of straight. I don't know

KING: Isn't it more fun, Arlene, for you to have someone else do it.

DAHL: No. I never...

KING: You're not used to that from MGM?

DAHL: No. No. Since I left Metro and Paramount, I do my own makeup.

KING: And you like that better than someone doing it?

DAHL: Yes, although, I have done it on other women. I started the first beauty makeover in the 60s when I was writing my beauty column for all my newspapers throughout the country. And I really loved to do that. There are no ugly, only women who haven't reached their full potential.

KING: Why do you think so many people -- I'll ask the young girl, Jessie. The young lady here. You're, Sarah, young too...

(LAUGHTER)

KING: We have two really youngies.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Why do you think so many people put on too much makeup? And it's obvious when you see a girl, come on!

FEMINA: Because they're striving for the wrong thing. I think when people wear makeup, they should be wearing it to get the maximum out of self-confidence that they can have. That's the point of it. I mean the makeup is not powerful. It's the feeling that you get and the confidence that you have when you wear it.

When people put on too much it's because they're striving for perfection. And we all know that's just impossible. So it's just a waste of money. And frankly, it doesn't look very good either.

KING: Judy, why do you think? You see a lot of women. Well, you see them, obviously. What were they thinking?

LICHT: I think that they were not self-confident. And I think that I had an aunt who wore too much makeup. No, seriously. And it was a woman who wanted to be something she was not. And they think that it's some magical thing that will bring them into the realm where they think -- instead of enhancing who they are, they want to cover up what they are and become something else. And it never works.

DAHL: Or they want to be different.

LICHT: Yes.

DAHL: The teen-agers want to be different. They have green hair. They have too much eye shadow on, too much black lipstick. They want to be different.

KING: Did you ever go through that stage, Sarah?

HUGHES: Yes. I think -- well, no. I didn't have the green hair or anything. No.

But I think also it's like learning what you're about. And sometimes people don't know us. So they just keep putting on more and more on without realizing what it really looks like.

And I think also you have to change throughout time and how your face changes because your face doesn't always stay the same. And you know, sometimes you might need a lot of concealer. And sometimes you might not need any. And it's the ability to tell the difference, and to know when to use something and when not to. And I think some people lack that or...

KING: Leeza.

HUGHES: ... they don't pay enough attention.

KING: Leeza, what do you make of the botox craze?

GIBBONS: Well, I tell you what. You'd be hard pressed to find a lot of women who aren't taking advantage of that tool. And we've been talking a lot about what's available to us as women, and those are personal choices. And when you decide to make them. And aging fearlessly in our culture is a very noble pursuit, because we tend to dispose of people and things that aren't pretty. That don't have a youthful energy; and I think that having a certain amount of grace in your life is the goal.

We don't get to keep our -- I mean Arlene has kept it the longest than anybody, but most of us don't get to keep our unlined...

DAHL: I'm just 102.

GIBBONS: You know what I mean? Our unlined, unwrinkled skin doesn't last. Our -- you know, our tight muscles and the luster in our hair, whatever. What last at the end of the day is you. That's what you've got left, and the people that you've invested in, the people that you have loved, the lives that you've touched. And what are you leaving behind?

KING: Yes. Sometimes when you do a botox you have no lines in your head right? That looks weird.

DAHL: Well, you're plastic.

KING: That looks abnormal. You're supposed to have a line in your head.

DAHL: It's a plastic face.

MCEVOY: But -- but if done correctly, it looks fabulous.

KING: All right. We'll pick up on that in a minute. I'll come back and going to re-introduce the whole panel on our special edition of LARRY KING LIVE TONIGHT in conjunction with the publication of Trish McEvoy's "The Power of Makeup." We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Trish McEvoy's book, "The Power of Makeup, Looking Your Level Best at Every Age." Trish is with us. She's also the founder of the Trish McEvoy Beauty and co- founder of the Trish McEvoy-Dr. Ronald Sherman Skin Care Center in New York.

Judy Licht is the broadcast journalist, senior correspondent and creative director of "Full Frontal Fashion" on the WE Network.

Jessie Della Femina is Judy Licht's daughter, fashion designer and got into the business at age 15.

In Los Angeles is Leeza Gibbons, TV news journalist, host, radio personality, producer and businesswoman, founder of the Leeza Gibbons Memory Foundation, a non-profit organization working on Alzheimer's issues and spokesperson for the new makeup system Sheer Cover.

Sarah Hughes earned the 2002 Olympic Gold Medal in women's figure skating. She is a student at Yale University.

And Arlene Dahl, actress, businesswoman, astrologer, internationally syndicated beauty columnist working on her fifteenth book, "Lasting Beauty, For Women Over 40 Through Their 90s," it's to be published by Simon and Schuster.

OK, what about the expensive product versus the inexpensive product -- Trish?

MCEVOY: It's not about if makeup is expensive or not. What you should ask yourself is do you like what you're looking at or not? It's not a price issue. It you ought to look at price, you should only look at a few items when it comes to price: foundation, concealer, very, very important because they're what you put directly on you face.

KING: So the more money you spend on it, the better the product is likely to be?

MCEVOY: No, not necessarily but the packaging is more luxurious. So...

KING: What has that got to do with it?

MCEVOY: It has a lot to do with it, because it has to do because it has to do with how you feel when you put it on. If you are applying concealer and you go into a package and it feels lovely, you're going to spend a little bit more time putting it on. Is it better than an inexpensive concealer? Absolutely not. You have to decide what's right for you. For me...

KING: Trial and error.

MCEVOY: Yes.

KING: There are so many products, though.

MCEVOY: Hmm.

KING: How do you pick, Arlene?

DAHL: How do I pick? I...

KING: You go to the cosmetic department at Saks or Niemans; you go out of your mind.

DAHL: No. But I know what I'm looking for. I know my colors...

KING: What about the woman who doesn't?

DAHL: Ah. Well, then it's trial and error. But I know my colors. I know that I can experience -- experiment within two or three shades. But otherwise, it's the similar color for the skin. And our skin change over the years...

KING: Oh, they do.

DAHL: Yes, they do. So you have to go with the color the nearest tone to your skin. Or if you want to shade a little bit...

LICHT: Larry, I think a part of it...

KING: All right, let Arlene finish.

DAHL: Or if you want to shade some areas that have become a little whiter than they should, then you choose one or two shades darker. But you always blend. And Trish has a wonderful brush set that has brushes for everything: lipstick, blending, everything.

KING: Leeza.

GIBBONS: Oh, yes. Blend, blend, blend that is the key. No doubt about that.

I think when you're looking for products, you want to look for what's not in it as much as what is in it sometimes, especially for women with sensitive skin. Or women who have some issue where they have breakouts, you know, perfumes and dyes, and talcs, and all kinds of things that maybe irritants. You certainly want to be on the lookout for that.

And I mean that's how I really got to this mineral-based makeup. You know, we're talking about enhancing beauty and that's lovely, and I do believe that that's a potential and possibility for all women. But a lot women that are using the mineral-based makeup is -- are doing it because they have a birthmark, they have rosacea, they have acne, they have scarring. They have something that they need to hide or that they need to cover up. And they need this makeup to really help unleash their ability to regain confidence in their lives. And that's a very pivotal thing for many women.

When we become smaller because of something with our exterior, that's just unacceptable for us to disappear and hide.

KING: Sarah, how do you choose what you buy?

HUGHES: I usually like to try new things. I have a nice base of natural things that I can use everyday. But you know, I'm young and I like to try like maybe a purple eyeliner or a different color lipstick or something...

KING: But how do you choose Revlon versus Arden?

HUGHES: It really depends on what I'm doing. I mean I really actually love Trish's products because her products come in little cases. And it's so convenient especially when you're always on the go, to have everything all together in one place.

KING: They sold everywhere, her products? Your products, they sold everywhere?

MCEVOY: I wish someday.

KING: Are you in prominent stores?

MCEVOY: Neiman's, Saks, Nordstrom's.

KING: Are you considered expensive?

MCEVOY: No, in between.

KING: Judy, how do you choose?

LICHT: I choose some really cheap stuff, some really expensive stuff. I think makeup is like fashion right now. The latest way to dress is to wear things by Target, things by Chanel, mix them up. And I go by texture, color and how it last. Obviously, I'm here because I wear a lot of Trish's stuff because I find it's organized, it's practical and I love the texture. But the bottom-line is you mix it up.

And the more important thing again is have somebody -- if you don't know what you're doing yourself, go to somebody. They all have free makeup people at these stands now. They'll -- if you don't know what you're doing, and you don't have the money to go to a makeup specialist, they'll do it for you. Go to three different places and see which way you like it best. And then pick the products.

KING: Jessie, how do you choose what you buy?

FEMINA: Whatever she's not using anymore.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Leftovers?

FEMINA: I take her leftovers. I steal from her makeup closet. But I don't really choose what to buy. I buy makeup when I need it.

KING: Why is there so much makeup in a woman's -- you go -- a woman's bathroom is a mini Saks.

FEMINA: Because it's so much fun.

DAHL: Yes.

KING: So it's fun to go buy this stuff.

FEMINA: It's so much fun. And it's fun to experiment. But before I started...

KING: Men don't find it fun to buy shaving cream.

FEMINA: No.

KING: You got to buy it. you go buy it.

MCEVOY: Some men do.

KING: Some men like it fun?

(CROSSTALK)

LICHT: Men haven't been objectified until the last five years. Now men's looks are important. So younger men are becoming metro- sexual or whatever that...

MCEVOY: That's right.

LICHT: ... because they're being judged by their looks too in business and by women. And so up until now, women knew they were being objectified. So the goal was, the end run was make yourself as pretty as you can. Now, guys are getting -- you see Larry...

KING: Oh, I'm influenced. I bought a $40 shaving cream.

DAHL: There you go.

KING: It says the best shave of your life. I don't know. The hair is gone.

DAHL: Was it? Was it the best shave?

KING: Well, I don't know. Gillett foam he gave me the best shave of my life. It felt good. It felt good.

DAHL: I think if women are challenged, for instance. If a woman marries a younger man, which I have done and we just celebrated our 20-anniversary.

MCEVOY: How much younger?

DAHL: Eighteen years.

MCEVOY: How fabulous.

DAHL: She is challenged to look her very best. She will exercise. She will eat right. She will diet. She will be as healthy as possible because you want to enjoy your life with him as long as possible, right?

KING: Is it difficult to wake up in the morning with someone who, say, didn't know who Adlai Stevenson was?

DAHL: Ah ha. Oh, he...

KING: A little joke.

(LAUGHTER)

DAHL: I think he did.

LICHT: I know.

KING: Get a good shot of Judy Licht; she'll never be back.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: We'll be back with more. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Trish McEvoy's book is "The Power of Makeup."

Has technology improved? Is the product better?

MCEVOY: Oh, my goodness! Yes. Yes!

KING: The chemicals are better?

MCEVOY: Absolutely. Years ago, when you had makeup put on by these wonderful makeup artists, was the technology as good as it is today?

DAHL: Absolutely not. My flay -- face blew up with pancake makeup. They had to make a new moisturizer makeup for me at Warner Brothers pers...

KING: Really?

DAHL: Yes.

KING: So there are after effects?

DAHL: I'm allergic to practically every makeup. So, things have to be made for me.

MCEVOY: Foundation today...

KING: Judy, you agree?

LICHT: Yes. I know the stuff they use to use on television sets, Larry you know that, it used to would be thick, and ugly, and horrible...

KING: Yes, heavy.

LICHT: It's heavy.

DAHL: Yes. Right. Awful. Lead base.

LICHT: Yes. I find that the lipstick are smoother, they stay on better. And the foundations look more natural.

KING: Basically Leeza, when they tell you wash off your makeup when you get home right away, does that mean it's bad for your skin? GIBBONS: Well, I mean I think anybody there will tell you that when you're young, you can get away with anything. You can stay out. You can drink too much wine. You don't have to get enough sleep. You can wake up the next day in your makeup from the night before...

KING: Just use...

GIBBONS: Bulletproof. Then you begin to sort of wear that. And the first place that you wear that is your skin. So, you know, I think it really is essential. I mean even if you're using something that as non-irritating as minerals, you still want to clean that canvas every night and moisturize it, and put the sunscreen on.

And you know, I think we all get to the point where you we go, gosh, I wish I'd listened to my mom. I was one of those that had the aluminum foil baking and the sun, you know, the Sun-In in my hair. And I just wish I'd never done all of that.

KING: You all deal with skin. What do you make of the tanning phenomena? Run in for 15 minutes, come out tanned.

MCEVOY: I think it's great if it's fake. Absolutely great.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Let's repeat that line.

MCEVOY: It's great.

KING: It's great if it's fake. In other words, not the sun. But you don't mind running into the tanning salon.

MCEVOY: Oh, no.

GIBBONS: Fake and bake is the way to go.

DAHL: I'm allergic to the sun.

KING: What did you say, Leeza?

GIBBONS: Fake and bake is the way to go. Tan in a tube...

DAHL: Fake and bake.

(LAUGHTER)

GIBBONS: ... all of that is good. I mean...

KING: Tan in a tube. Fake and bake.

DAHL: French-frying in the sun is out.

KING: Out.

DAHL: Out. Absolutely.

KING: But the sun used to be healthy. You don't remember this Sarah, a long time ago they used to say...

HUGHES: Yes. My mom always tells me she used sit in the sun for hours and hours.

KING: Tan was healthy like white was not healthy.

HUGHES: Right. And...

KING: Tan was healthy. Coppertone.

HUGHES: ... I am so pale. But you know what? I can't tan. I just burn to a crisp.

DAHL: That's right.

HUGHES: And so, I'm kind of afraid of the sun.

DAHL: Good.

KING: So, when we talk...

LICHT: I bet she's one with a...

KING: So, when we talk about makeup, Judy, we're also talking about your skin, right?

LICHT: Yes.

KING: Skin care and makeup go hand in hand, don't they?

LICHT: But you ne -- you know, everybody tells you that until you're about 30 and you don't believe them. It always sounds like some gobble-de-gook; some moralistic stuff. And then you hit 30, and God forbid 40 and onward, and that's when you pay, and pay, and pay, and pay. And that's when you really understand it much better. And that's unfortunately too late; you start taking care of yourself.

KING: How do you know what creams to buy, Trish? Skin creams. There are thousands of those.

DAHL: The ones that work best.

MCEVOY: That's exactly right. And how do you what works?

KING: Yes, how do you know?

MCEVOY: Trial and error.

DAHL: That's right.

MCEVOY: The key is really keeping things very simple.

DAHL: And read the ingredients on the packaging.

KING: But how do you know what you're reading?

DAHL: Because if you know what your skin doesn't like and you see it on the packaging, don't buy it.

KING: So you learn that from...

DAHL: Oh, yes! From trial and error.

MCEVOY: Also on packaging today...

KING: If it's the wrong cream, you can break out, right?

DAHL: That's right.

MCEVOY: On packaging today, most companies would tell you what the product does, and truthfully they will tell you what it does.

DAHL: Yes.

LICHT: You can ask a dermatologist if you really like a der...

KING: Not a bad idea.

LICHT: ... I mean some of them are not cosmetically oriented. But now a days, because that's where the money is, they all are sort of sophisticated about it. And if you don't have a good girlfriend who, you know -- just ask a dermatologist.

I mean somebody just gave a cream that shall remain nameless; but is a cult cream that sold for hundreds and hundreds of dollars as a present. I thought, Oh, this is great. I tried it and I found it was glop. I hated it. And I found a much less expensive thing that works much better for me.

KING: But it might have worked for someone else, right?

LICHT: Absolutely. Absolutely.

KING: Leeza...

GIBBONS: You know what ladies? I think what we are saying is this is your one and only lifetime. You have to kind of take custody of your life and be responsible for what you know. And I think that one of the beautiful things about aging is that you do get perspective. And you realize that you kind of have to go out there, and yes, try all the products. Learn about all the products. Understand that your skin is your biggest organ in your body and that it's effected by environmental things; everything you put into your body.

And once you begin to take that more seriously and stop taking for granted when you realize that it's vulnerable, you know, this is -- this is your life. So, go out there and create it.

KING: Not always easy though, is it? I mean this because you're on stage. The woman is on stage, isn't she everyday, Leeza?

MCEVOY: Nothing in life is easy, Larry. Nothing. Discipline is not easy. Taking care of your skin is not easy. Putting makeup on when you're in a hurry and you've got three kids is not easy. It depends on what you want to spend your life doing. And if you take the time to the discipline and the skin care, makeup, exercise, the way you eat, your body is going to show the difference.

And if you take care of yourself inside, most importantly, making sure that you are the person you want to be. That's the most important.

DAHL: And skin care, I think, starts from the cradle on up. My daughter and I are writing a book together called "Budding Beauties From Age Three To 10." I have eight grandchildren; six of them are girls. I have four of them between the ages of two and six. And good habits start early. You have to teach them about skin care...

KING: Fill the void.

DAHL: Oh! You have to teach them the right things to do. Bad habits are terrible thing to break. And some women never break them even when they're 30, 40, 50. And they look in the mirror and they see these wrinkles and they say, gee, I wish hadn't French-fried when I was 14, 16, something like that.

LICHT: We used to feel it was guilty, that this whole conversation was fluff and vanity. The bottom-line is you're being judged. And learning how to present yourself well, whether it's through makeup or keeping care -- you know, good haircut or whatever, is just as important as learning how to speak publicly, how to read good books. You -- what you are on the outside now, the style is just as important as the substance. The style is the substance. Getting back to that thing.

And I think that makeup was, you know, it sounds like, Oh, we're just talking about makeup. We're not. We're talking about how you present yourself.

KING: You can't judge a book by its cover but the cover is important.

MCEVOY: And I think what Leeza said is important.

DAHL: You want to pick up the cover.

KING: That's right.

DAHL: You want to pick up the packaging.

KING: Correct.

DAHL: Yes!

MCEVOY: And as Leeza said, we're responsible...

DAHL: Yes!

MCEVOY: ... for our lives.

DAHL: Absolutely and how we look.

KING: We'll be back with our re...

MCEVOY: And how we look.

KING: ... with our remaining moments of our outstanding panel talking about you and how you look. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: The book Trish McEvoy's, "The Power of Makeup."

The biggest mistake you have ever made makeup wise, lipstick wise.

MCEVOY: Not blending well enough. All of us have to blend, blend, blend.

KING: And did you realize that after you were out all ready?

MCEVOY: Unfortunately, yes.

KING: You thought you looked terrible.

MCEVOY: Well, I wouldn't say terrible but I needed to blend. Absolutely...

KING: I bet you got compliments.

MCEVOY: On my blending?

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Good blending.

Arlene.

DAHL: I always believe in blending in.

(LAUGHTER)

No, I think using the makeup that other actresses were using and blowing up, you know, being allergic to it, I almost didn't have a career in motion pictures.

KING: Really?

DAHL: Oh, absolutely.

KING: The wrong makeup?

DAHL: The wrong makeup.

KING: Sarah.

HUGHES: Oh, I say way too much bronzer. And because I'm so pale, the orange and stuff like, probably kind of similar to your mistake.

KING: Is lighting sometime a problem because you're looking in one light and then you go outside and it's a different light?

HUGHES: Yes. It's most important to always use natural light. That's what I found.

KING: Judy, a mistake.

LICHT: Not caring enough about my makeup when I was doing newscasts. And the station I was working for was cheap so they cut away a makeup artist, it was local. And not paying enough attention to it at the time because it was more important than I thought.

KING: Jessie.

FEMINA: Thinking that I should express my every feeling on my face.

(LAUGHTER)

When I was young, I used to use eyeliner and extend it out to there and curl it around at the end. Just because I thought it was pretty like...

KING: So you could smile and frown at the same time?

(LAUGHTER)

FEMINA: I thought my face was a canvas. I don't know.

KING: Leeza, beauty. Did you ever make a mistake, Leeza?

GIBBONS: Oh, please! I made all of my mistakes on the air and still am allowed to be back on. I don't know why.

(LAUGHTER)

GIBBONS: I think too much mascara. Like, I'm depressed. I didn't get that job; you just keep putting that on. I think we use it as some sort of a therapy device. So, I need to learn to back away from the wand. Get away from the mirror and leave it alone honey.

KING: When women do this, OK, this with the eyebrows. Why do they have to do it 172 times?

MCEVOY: They want more.

KING: Why not 171?

MCEVOY: More.

KING: Why?

LICHT: With our mouths open.

DAHL: Yes. Right. Right.

KING: Why?

DAHL: Well, first they curl their eyelashes, if they have any.

KING: Yes. But how many times you have to do it?

DAHL: And then you have to keep doing it, and wait until it dries and do it again. If you have thin lashes, and most blondes and redheads have thin lashes, so they have to apply, as you know, three or four coats before it shows.

LICHT: It's therapy. Let's face it.

(LAUGHTER)

LICHT: I agree with Leeza. You know, when you're de -- you know, it gives you time to think. It's therapy. It's like repetitive motion. It's a mantra.

KING: Is it all part of a package, Trish? I mean like, hairspray, is that part of this whole thing?

MCEVOY: Oh, it's style. Absolutely.

KING: You make hairspray?

MCEVOY: No. No. I do not.

KING: How did you miss out on that?

MCEVOY: Maybe I will.

DAHL: Not yet.

(LAUGHTER)

MCEVOY: Makeup is part of style. Your hair, your clothing, it's how you present yourself to the world.

DAHL: It's your presentation. You pick up a package because it looks beautiful and you examine it. You pick up a book because it has a good-looking cover. You pick up a girl because she's attractive.

KING: Are you...

LICHT: Or a guy.

KING: Are you affected...

LICHT: Or a guy.

KING: Leeza, are you affected by advertising?

GIBBONS: Oh, my goodness. I think we're all affected by advertising. And I think when we're aware of its effect on us, it's even more beautiful because you know, I mean we're a society of images and impressions. And that's how you break out. And that's how -- you know, there's so much clutter and so much glut. And you know, especially in the area of makeup for women.

And being the dad of sons, Larry, we were talking about how many products we all have. I know my husband rolls his eyes and says, how many do you use. Well, we like to have sons. So, I have two sons and a daughter and I'm -- you know, I'm wanting my sons to recognize that just let us have that thing. Just give us that part of it and you know, you'll be a lot happier in your relationships.

KING: Do men do makeup? I mean other than like going on television.

DAHL: Skin creams, moisturizers...

MCEVOY: bronzers.

DAHL: Bronzers.

MCEVOY: Concealers.

DAHL: And a lot more need the bronzers, especially when other businessmen are catching up...

MCEVOY: Times are changing, Larry.

DAHL: Yes! They are.

MCEVOY: You, to, maybe wearing bronzers next year.

KING: What is a bronzer?

DAHL: Oh.

LICHT: It makes you bronze.

KING: You mean you put it on...

LICHT: Yes. It's like a tan but it's makeup.

KING: But you'd have to put it on your hands too or you'll look weird.

(CROSSTALK)

FEMINA: I've tried that.

KING: You look two-toned.

DAHL: It makes your skin shine as against a dry, pancake makeup. It doesn't shine. It's very blah.

KING: As a society Leeza, are we all getting better at this.

GIBBONS: Better at taking charge... KING: Looking better, taking charge, all those things.

GIBBONS: Absolutely. I think we recognize now -- we've kind of come clean about it. I think we recognize it's a valuable thing. It's not completely superfluous. That it's OK to have fun. It's OK to experiment. It's OK to choose to do it or not to do it.

But as women we've worked so hard to have choice. Now that we have choice, you know, as Trish says so beautifully in her book, if you want to be a Level 1, great. There are days when you want to do that. You know, when you're the soccer mom, be a Level 1. When you want to be more dramatic and expressive, and try on different roles and different integrations of you, then we should have fun with that. And should not apologize for it, I think. It's an empowerment tool. I do believe that.

KING: We only have a little while left. Can you cover acne, Trish?

MCEVOY: Absolutely.

KING: In young girls, you can...

MCEVOY: Absolutely. It's very easy. You just take a little bit of concealer, place it right on the blemish, blend with a Q-tip.

KING: So, there's no reason for anyone to walk around having acne on their skin showing?

MCEVOY: Absolutely.

KING: It doesn't cure it.

MCEVOY: It doesn't cure it but it makes you feel better about your skin.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Sarah, why are you laughing?

HUGHES: It's a very difficult thing to do when you're very young. I mean when you're 10, 11, 12 and your skin starts breaking out, I mean you just try to put whatever you can on your face...

DAHL: You want to hide.

HUGHES: ... to try to conceal it. And then it ends up sticking out more than the concealer.

GIBBONS: But see that's exactly the problem, you're so right. And young girls will become more conspicuous because they've got cakey makeup and it's streaky and it's orange, and all that. That's why a lot of young girls are honestly going with the sheer cover because like Trish said, it's the concealer, and then you put the powder on over it. And you're good to go and it doesn't look like you're trying to cover something up. KING: We have thoroughly enjoyed this hour. Hope you have to and hope it helps.

Trish McEvoy's book is "The Power of Makeup, Looking Your Level Best at Every Age." Judy Licht is seen on the WE Network. Jessie Della Femina, you can buy her clothing at stores everywhere. Leeza Gibbons is everywhere. Sarah Hughes is a student at Yale in the line of Jodie Foster. The 2002 Olympic Gold Medal in women's figure skating. And the wonderful Arlene Dahl, who is just ageless...

DAHL: Oh!

KING: And precious.

DAHL: Larry, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KING: We thank you all very much. And I'll be back in a minute, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We may do this on a regular basis, Larry and the ladies.

DAHL: Oh!

KING: Hell, beats work. We hope you enjoyed this hour of LARRY KING LIVE. Stay tuned now for news around the clock on the most trusted name in news, CNN. Have a great rest of the weekend. Goodnight.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 15, 2003 - 21:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the power of make-up, its secrets revealed with Trish McEvoy, the renowned beauty expert whose one of the queens of the cosmetic industry.
TV and radio personality, Leeza Gibbons, now spokeswoman for a new make-up system.

Actress, Arlene Dahl, the silver-screen beauty, has written books and a syndicated column on the subject, even hosted a beauty show on ABC, back in the 60s.

Judy Licht, senior correspondent on the WE Network's "Full Frontal Fashion." Her daughter, fashion designer, Jesse Della Femina.

And Sarah Hughes, Olympic Gold Medalist in figure skating, where the pressure's always on to look you most beautiful.

They're all next, looking good, on LARRY KING LIVE.

We have a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE for you tonight: The world of make-up and beauty, and all sorts of things. And no better person to lead the panel than Trish McEvoy. Trish is the author of the new book, "The Power of Make-Up, Looking Your Level Best At Every Age."

Why did -- how did you get into make-up, as a life?

TRISH MCEVOY, AUTHOR, "THE POWER OF MAKE-UP": I got into make-up when I was a young, young child. My grandmother owned perfumeries, and I've always been surrounded by make-up.

KING: Why not perfume?

MCEVOY: I love perfume, too. I'm in that business, also. But make-up and perfume they all go together.

KING: Well, how did you start? Where you a make-up girl in a beauty parlor?

MCEVOY: I was a make-up girl in my grandmother's perfumery. I was four-years old, crawling around, and just -- it just came very, very naturally. I started behind the cosmetic counter. I was 18 and that's where it started.

KING: Is it a -- is this a -- I'll get to the whole panel in a minute. But we're starting first with Trish's book. Is this a -- are people natural at it? Or is this taught?

MCEVOY: Some people are natural. And many women are taught. It just depends on your comfort zone. Some women like skating, skate naturally. They're taught how to skate. But it's a natural ability. Others, they've got to practice a little more.

KING: Trish McEvoy is the founder, by the way, of the Trish McEvoy Beauty, and co-founder of the Trish McEvoy-Dr. Ronald Sherman's Skin Care Center, in New York. And the book, "The Power of Make-Up" is now out.

Arlene Dahl is, of course, the actress, businesswoman, astrologer, internationally syndicated beauty columnist for the "Chicago Tribune," in "New York News." She also had a program called "Arlene Dahl's Beauty Spot," on ABC in the mid-60s. She's working on her 15 book, "Lasting Beauty, For Women Over 40, and Through Their 90s." And this is going to be published by Simon and Schuster.

Was make-up powerful in your life? Important in your life?

DAHL: The most important thing, I wouldn't be a star with it. At 13, I was all one color. My skin was white. My eyes were white or light, and my hair was light. And until I was in a school play, and put on -- somebody put on mascara on me, I had no face. I was all one color. I lost -- people lost me on the pillow.

So, make-up was very, very important to my life. I didn't even know I was pretty. I thought I was just ordinary, just one color, until mascara changed my life.

KING: Did we not go through an era where, when was it, the 60s, women stopped wearing make-up?

DAHL: Oh, yes. And they threw away their bras. Those who did needed it the most, of course.

(LAUGHTER)

DAHL: Make-up is very, very important, especially to blonds and redheads.

KING: Leeza Gibbons is in Los Angeles. She's the TV news journalist and host, radio personality, producer and businesswoman. Founder of the Leeza Gibbons Memory Foundation, a nonprofit organization working on Alzheimer's issues, and she's spokesperson for the new make-up system called Sheer Cover. What is that?

LEEZA GIBBONS, TV RADIO HOST: And I feel so alone out here without all of you. I wish I can be in that energy of powerful women.

Sheer Cover is as Trish McEvoy says so beautifully; it's a mineral-based make-up. But I love Trish's book, where she says the "power of make-up," because this product, like with all make-ups, and I think that all the women would agree, make-up is possibility. It unleashes our potential. And allows to create who we are and announce who we are to the world. And I think that's important, because it allows us to be confident, and that's the most beautiful thing in the world.

KING: How about those who might say, Leeza, that it's false in a sense? It's an exterior. It's not you?

GIBBONS: Look, we know people form impressions within the first few minutes. Anyone's who had their teeth straightened, is that false? Anyone -- any men who want to put hair on their head if they don't have it -- is that false? You know, you want to be the best you can be. Real beauty is about striving to be your very best everyday.

And with a product, like Sheer Cover, if you are, as Trish says in her book, a Level 1, someone who is comfortable with just the slightest bit of make-up, and really wants to even out skin tones, then you can do that, with Sheer Cover. If you have something that you want to cover up, if you have a complexion challenge, then you can do that with Sheer Cover.

And most women will tell you, it's the time we spend really looking at ourselves in the mirror, where we learn how the light falls off our face. We learn how to deal with make-up. And I think, as we get older, we get more confident about it. And we understand what works for us. And we stop becoming so vulnerable to all the trends and fade.

KING: Sara Hughes, earned the 2002 Olympic Gold Medal in women's figure skating. She's a student at Yale. What are you majoring in?

SARAH HUGHES, 2002 OLYMPIC GOLD FIGURE SKATING: I don't know yet. Undecided. I've only been there nine weeks.

KING: Oh, you don't have to pick a major right away?

HUGHES: No. I think we have until the end of our sophomore year.

KING: I don't think they have a major in make-up, do they?

HUGHES: Not yet.

KING: What got you interested in this subject?

HUGHES: Well, from skating at an early age, we always would perform. And so, so people would put make-up on me. And I was always a little rebellious. And I wanted to be like, no. I like it this way. So, I learned how to do my own make-up.

And really when I was about 15 and I kind of went through a transformation in my skating. I really wanted to become my character, and I was skating to a Don Quixote. So, I went and I just tried to get every tip I could to learn how to just really refine how I did my make-up, and become the character. And it really helped me go into a place where I could become the character on the ice.

KING: So, your make-up is essential to performance, no matter where you're performing?

HUGHES: No. That's very true. Yes.

KING: Has it affected you, in your social life?

HUGHES: Yes. I would say that. I think it's important to look nice, and be presentable. And you know, you really -- just learning how to put on your own make-up and knowing what you like, you learn kind of more who you are, and how you want to be presented. And I think it kind of introduces you to other people, before you even open your mouth.

KING: OK. Judy Licht is the broadcast journalist, senior correspondent, and creative director of the "Full Frontal Fashion" on the WE Network. What do we mean by full frontal fashion? Sounds a little erotic.

JUDY LICHT, WE NETWORK SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: It worked. It got your attention.

KING: Damned right.

LICHT: Actually, I started in news, but we started this program, a bunch of years ago, to cover the fashion shows, almost like the marathon, with a sports model. And we tried to find a description for it. And "Full Frontal" really got everybody's attention: men, women, and everybody in between. And so it worked. And now we have a half- hour show, on WE, we do full-time coverage, during fashion -- all the fashion weeks.

KING: How important to you is McEvoy? Trish McEvoy?

LICHT: Well, Trish...

KING: In the world of fashion and perfumery, and make-up...

LICHT: To be honest, I think Trish is the best at what she does, for a reason. We became friends years ago, when I first covered her, when she was starting out her company. And I think make-up -- let's face it. Most make-up is the same. I mean some of the quality is better. Some isn't. It's about how you use it. It's about the interplay between the people teaching you and your learning.

And what Trish does, both one on one, and when she does her make- up groups, and how she teaches her trainers in the store, is to work with the woman. Understand what the woman's life is like. Understand what the woman feels like about herself. And then give her what she needs to fulfill her life.

KING: So, if you're saying your knowing what to do with the $2 make-up, as opposed to not knowing what to do with an $8 make-up, you'd bet on the $2 make-up?

LICHT: You're darn right. And the thing about Trish's system though, is the education is just as important as the product.

KING: We're going to take a break. When we come back, one more member of our panel, and we'll get a full-frontal discussion about this. And we'll talk with Jesse Della Femina, Judy Licht's daughter, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back on, LARRY KING LIVE. We're talking about make- up, emphasizing Trish McEvoy's new book, "The Power of Make-Up, Looking Your Level Best At Every Age."

And the final member of our panel is Judy Licht -- is Jesse Della Femina, Judy Licht's daughter, fashion designer. Got into the business at age 15.

That means Jerry is your father, right?

JESSIE DELLA FEMINA, FASHION DESIGNER: Yes.

KING: Jerry and I went high school together.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: So, that's how old we are. We went to high school in Brooklyn. You must have heard of Lafayette.

FEMINA: I've heard lots about Lafayette.

KING: Are you and Jerry still married?

LICHT: Yes we are, in spite of what people think. No. No. We are married.

KING: It's smart marrying a Licht. And you're a fashion designer?

FEMINA: I am.

KING: At age nine? How old are you?

FEMINA: No, I'm 18 now. I started when I was 14. I started making clothes, and selling them at 15. Trish actually helped me out. By -- when I first started, she did make-up for all of my models. She did my make-up. She donated tons of make-up to gift bags for fund- raisers I had. So...

KING: Do you design for young people, only?

FEMINA: No. I don't really design for a specific age group. It's -- I guess, very much like make-up, it's more of a lifestyle. There are people that wear my clothes that are in their late 70s, and people that are eight or nine. It depends more on a body type, and just a way of living than an actual age.

KING: All Right. You write about levels of make-up, Trish. Right? And you write about make-up, Level 1, make-up not a driving passion. Level 2, make-up is an everyday essential. Level 3, make-up is a muse of expression and a natural look, right? How would you describe our people here?

Arlene Dahl?

MCEVOY: Level 3...

KING: Level 3...

MCEVOY: The details, the details, the details. Va-va-voom- glamour.

DAHL: Well, I had the best teachers in the world when I was at MGM. You know, the make-up artists were there doing...

KING: But they were doing make-up for the screen...

DAHL: Yes.

KING: ...which is different than doing make-up for the street, right?

DAHL: Yes and no. The same principles apply.

KING: They do?

DAHL: Yes. And unless you have a beautiful canvas on which to put your make-up, and I'm sure Trish would agree, it doesn't stay. It blotches...

KING: The canvas has to be good.

DAHL: The skin...

KING: Right.

DAHL: ... is very important.

KING: Sarah, Trish.

MCEVOY: Level 2. Level 1. Level 3. Depending on her role: if she's at school, she's a Level 1. On ice, it could be 2 or 3. What do you think?

HUGHES: I would agree. I really vary on each day, it depends. Some days, I'm a Level 1, 2, and 3 altogether. And well, if you start out with school, it's more minimalistic. And then I have practice, and then I have a performance. And afterwards, sometimes, there's a party and I still like to stay the whole three.

MCEVOY: But you know your style. I heard you in that make-up room. Speak about how you communicate with make-up artists. I think that's so important.

HUGHES: Yes, well...

KING: You have to tell them what you want, right?

MCEVOY: Yes. HUGHES: I do. Yes. Well, I really know what I like. And I also like, sometimes, when other people put on my make-up. But 99 percent of the time I do the make-up myself, because I really know what I like. And you know, I didn't want to tell anybody what to do. I just like to kind of guide people along what I like. And then I really like the result.

KING: Trish, is it a contradiction to say, you need make-up for a natural look?

MCEVOY: No. You enhance what nature gives you.

KING: But it is a natural look.

MCEVOY: It is a natural look.

KING: Now, what does Leeza Gibbons on your list of levels?

MCEVOY: Oh, I just think she's magnificent. She's a Level 2 and sometimes a Level 3. And I'm sure many times a Level 1. What do you think, Leeza?

GIBBONS: You're right on it. And I love when you talk about in your book how we do -- we -- we glide effortlessly between those levels. But with make-up and women, the time that we spend, you know, really nurturing ourselves in that way is very valuable. And I think that for us to be unapologetic about it is really essential.

The beauty business has been used against us, I think, to make us feel less than for a long time. And it's time for us to be empowered by it, to take control of it, to learn how to use it.

And with Sheer Cover, it's a powder; you use a brush to put it on. Trish was one of the first people to say how meaningful and important brushes are. And you can use a little bit or a lot. But if you have something to cover up. But whatever you're doing, the essence of it is to let the real you shine through. And I don't think any of us wants to wear a mask. We don't want to pretend that we're not ourselves. We want to be our best versions of ourselves.

MCEVOY: Absolutely.

KING: She said that right on the mark.

OK, what is Judy?

MCEVOY: I've seen Judy be a Level 1 and a Level 2. I never see her being a Level 3. What do you think, Judy?

LICHT: Well, I'd like to do a Level 3. But the problem is I was in the news business for so long, and they don't take you seriously if you go to Level 3. Trouble is when you get older, you need the Level 3 but you want to look like the Level 1.

(LAUGHTER)

LICHT: That's just the truth.

KING: What's the essential of Level 3 that you're not?

LICHT: Well, you know, really knowing the tricks. Really putting it on very well so that you really mask a lot of stuff.

KING: Arlene would know that.

LICHT: You know, I bow to Arlene. I'd like her to -- well, actually Trish has taught me but I'm not such a good learner.

But you know, Larry. I think this goes beyond what level we're on. There's a new book called "The Substance of Style." It's a very serious book written by a econ -- economics journalist named Virginia Postrel. And she talks about something called "the aesthetic imperative." I know it's a little intellectual for a talk about makeup. But the bottom-line is we live in an age of design. Men's looks and women's looks are more important than ever.

Women always knew that to be sexually attractive or to be performers, you had to look good. But now, people who look good make more money, men and women. The tools, whether it's make-up, plastic surgery, dermatology are there. And if you don't get with it, you're imperiling your own economic future even if you're not a performer. And I think that's why it's important.

KING: Trish, what is Jessie?

MCEVOY: Level 1. She's a natural beauty.

FEMINA: Thank you.

MCEVOY: Would you agree with that Jessie?

FEMINA: Oh, I don't know.

MCEVOY: Depends on the day?

FEMINA: It depends on the day.

MCEVOY: And the mood.

FEMINA: I have not left the house without a full face of foundation since I was in third grade?

LICHT: Well, it was actually third or fourth grade.

FEMINA: I'm dead serious.

KING: You're kidding?

FEMINA: No. I'm dead serious.

LICHT: No. No. She didn't know what she was doing. So it would be orange and I'd get really pissed off. In fact, as a birthday -- no, as a graduation present from middle school, I sent her to Trish to do something that would look like a schoolgirl look, but wouldn't have that God-awful orange stuff that she felt the need to put on.

KING: We're going to go to break. And when we come back, we'll ask a question that all men ask. Why the hell does it take so long? We'll be right back.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Our panel on makeup and beauty and the like, with an outstanding panel of guests, five of them here and one -- I'll re-introduce them in the next segment.

All right. Why does it take so long, Trish?

MCEVOY: It doesn't always...

KING: Come on!

MCEVOY: ... takes so long.

KING: You're ready? You're ready? Are you ready?

MCEVOY: It does not. It does not. If you're a Level 1...

(CROSSTALK)

MCEVOY: If you're a Level 1 it takes a second, because you're not willing to wear a lot of product. If you're a Level 2, you're going to spend the time. And it doesn't take that much.

KING: My wife is a Level 9.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: What do you do with a Level 9? Leeza Gibbons knows Shawn, you know Shawn.

MCEVOY: Your wife is about the details. Of course, I know.

KING: About the details?

GIBBONS: That is so not true.

KING: Come one! Are you kidding?

MCEVOY: She's all about the details.

DAHL: She's a knockout. Whatever it takes to look your best is the time you should spend. Now, I haven't worn foundation at all, because I have stayed out of the sun. So my skin is still young looking. And I don't have wrinkles here and there, and the neck and so on.

KING: No you don't.

DAHL: But and I don't smoke. Sun, smoke and fad diets are the worst things for the skin. And therefore, you shouldn't do it.

KING: Does it take you a long time, Sarah?

HUGHES: No. Actually it doesn't. I've learned to do it very quickly, because usually, I'm running late.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Take you a long time, Judy?

LICHT: Yes. I can't lie.

FEMINA: It does. Tell them how long.

LICHT: I mean she's witnessed my husband screaming at me.

FEMINA: Everyday.

MCEVOY: How long?

LICHT: I have a trick for you Larry. Do what my husband does. Give her the wrong time. He started lying by half an hour.

DAHL: Mine too. Mine too.

KING: How about just leave and meet her there?

GIBBONS: But Larry...

KING: Yes.

GIBBONS: Larry, you know this as well as anybody. Sometimes it's not that physically it takes the time to apply the makeup, but that's time that is very intimate for a woman. In many cases if we're nervous, like Shawn, when she's putting on an event or when she's making an appearance. Sometimes we take that time for ourselves because we're either mentally bolstering ourselves for what it is that we need to face. And smart men, like you, will allow us that because it's not just...

KING: Ha ha.

GIBBONS: Look, with Sheer Cover I truly can be out the door in five minutes. Concealer, blush on the mineral powder and done. But I like to take longer often because I kind of get myself set for the day. And that's important.

KING: Does it feel good, Trish to do -- I've never done -- I've been made-up every night for television, of course. But...

MCEVOY: How does it feel?

KING: It's something I do. I sit there and it's finished. But to the girl, the woman doing it...

MCEVOY: Mm-hmm. KING: ... does it -- is it a high? Is it...

MCEVOY: I wouldn't say it is a high but it's a time for self- reflection, a time for planning the day. It's my....

KING: What do you think about?

MCEVOY: ... personal time. Depends on the day.

KING: I watch...

MCEVOY: Today, I thought about you...

KING: What are they thinking about?

MCEVOY: ... and being on this show.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: But I mean do you think about this is the way my eye looks? Or do you thinking...

MCEVOY: Some day is yes. Some day is no.

KING: ... Herbie is in the deli now. I'm going to meet him in an hour.

MCEVOY: If it's a good day, I don't think about this is the way my eye looks. If I woke up and it's a bad day, I think about it plenty. Absolutely.

DAHL: Then she gets out the tea bags.

(LAUGHTER)

LICHT: I think it's a time of meditation. I know for me, it's a time to focus on looking good. But I actually -- I don't meditate or do yoga and the time that I get to think about what I have to think about for the day. What has to get done, what doesn't have to get done. And still get an eye that's sort of straight. I don't know

KING: Isn't it more fun, Arlene, for you to have someone else do it.

DAHL: No. I never...

KING: You're not used to that from MGM?

DAHL: No. No. Since I left Metro and Paramount, I do my own makeup.

KING: And you like that better than someone doing it?

DAHL: Yes, although, I have done it on other women. I started the first beauty makeover in the 60s when I was writing my beauty column for all my newspapers throughout the country. And I really loved to do that. There are no ugly, only women who haven't reached their full potential.

KING: Why do you think so many people -- I'll ask the young girl, Jessie. The young lady here. You're, Sarah, young too...

(LAUGHTER)

KING: We have two really youngies.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Why do you think so many people put on too much makeup? And it's obvious when you see a girl, come on!

FEMINA: Because they're striving for the wrong thing. I think when people wear makeup, they should be wearing it to get the maximum out of self-confidence that they can have. That's the point of it. I mean the makeup is not powerful. It's the feeling that you get and the confidence that you have when you wear it.

When people put on too much it's because they're striving for perfection. And we all know that's just impossible. So it's just a waste of money. And frankly, it doesn't look very good either.

KING: Judy, why do you think? You see a lot of women. Well, you see them, obviously. What were they thinking?

LICHT: I think that they were not self-confident. And I think that I had an aunt who wore too much makeup. No, seriously. And it was a woman who wanted to be something she was not. And they think that it's some magical thing that will bring them into the realm where they think -- instead of enhancing who they are, they want to cover up what they are and become something else. And it never works.

DAHL: Or they want to be different.

LICHT: Yes.

DAHL: The teen-agers want to be different. They have green hair. They have too much eye shadow on, too much black lipstick. They want to be different.

KING: Did you ever go through that stage, Sarah?

HUGHES: Yes. I think -- well, no. I didn't have the green hair or anything. No.

But I think also it's like learning what you're about. And sometimes people don't know us. So they just keep putting on more and more on without realizing what it really looks like.

And I think also you have to change throughout time and how your face changes because your face doesn't always stay the same. And you know, sometimes you might need a lot of concealer. And sometimes you might not need any. And it's the ability to tell the difference, and to know when to use something and when not to. And I think some people lack that or...

KING: Leeza.

HUGHES: ... they don't pay enough attention.

KING: Leeza, what do you make of the botox craze?

GIBBONS: Well, I tell you what. You'd be hard pressed to find a lot of women who aren't taking advantage of that tool. And we've been talking a lot about what's available to us as women, and those are personal choices. And when you decide to make them. And aging fearlessly in our culture is a very noble pursuit, because we tend to dispose of people and things that aren't pretty. That don't have a youthful energy; and I think that having a certain amount of grace in your life is the goal.

We don't get to keep our -- I mean Arlene has kept it the longest than anybody, but most of us don't get to keep our unlined...

DAHL: I'm just 102.

GIBBONS: You know what I mean? Our unlined, unwrinkled skin doesn't last. Our -- you know, our tight muscles and the luster in our hair, whatever. What last at the end of the day is you. That's what you've got left, and the people that you've invested in, the people that you have loved, the lives that you've touched. And what are you leaving behind?

KING: Yes. Sometimes when you do a botox you have no lines in your head right? That looks weird.

DAHL: Well, you're plastic.

KING: That looks abnormal. You're supposed to have a line in your head.

DAHL: It's a plastic face.

MCEVOY: But -- but if done correctly, it looks fabulous.

KING: All right. We'll pick up on that in a minute. I'll come back and going to re-introduce the whole panel on our special edition of LARRY KING LIVE TONIGHT in conjunction with the publication of Trish McEvoy's "The Power of Makeup." We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Trish McEvoy's book, "The Power of Makeup, Looking Your Level Best at Every Age." Trish is with us. She's also the founder of the Trish McEvoy Beauty and co- founder of the Trish McEvoy-Dr. Ronald Sherman Skin Care Center in New York.

Judy Licht is the broadcast journalist, senior correspondent and creative director of "Full Frontal Fashion" on the WE Network.

Jessie Della Femina is Judy Licht's daughter, fashion designer and got into the business at age 15.

In Los Angeles is Leeza Gibbons, TV news journalist, host, radio personality, producer and businesswoman, founder of the Leeza Gibbons Memory Foundation, a non-profit organization working on Alzheimer's issues and spokesperson for the new makeup system Sheer Cover.

Sarah Hughes earned the 2002 Olympic Gold Medal in women's figure skating. She is a student at Yale University.

And Arlene Dahl, actress, businesswoman, astrologer, internationally syndicated beauty columnist working on her fifteenth book, "Lasting Beauty, For Women Over 40 Through Their 90s," it's to be published by Simon and Schuster.

OK, what about the expensive product versus the inexpensive product -- Trish?

MCEVOY: It's not about if makeup is expensive or not. What you should ask yourself is do you like what you're looking at or not? It's not a price issue. It you ought to look at price, you should only look at a few items when it comes to price: foundation, concealer, very, very important because they're what you put directly on you face.

KING: So the more money you spend on it, the better the product is likely to be?

MCEVOY: No, not necessarily but the packaging is more luxurious. So...

KING: What has that got to do with it?

MCEVOY: It has a lot to do with it, because it has to do because it has to do with how you feel when you put it on. If you are applying concealer and you go into a package and it feels lovely, you're going to spend a little bit more time putting it on. Is it better than an inexpensive concealer? Absolutely not. You have to decide what's right for you. For me...

KING: Trial and error.

MCEVOY: Yes.

KING: There are so many products, though.

MCEVOY: Hmm.

KING: How do you pick, Arlene?

DAHL: How do I pick? I...

KING: You go to the cosmetic department at Saks or Niemans; you go out of your mind.

DAHL: No. But I know what I'm looking for. I know my colors...

KING: What about the woman who doesn't?

DAHL: Ah. Well, then it's trial and error. But I know my colors. I know that I can experience -- experiment within two or three shades. But otherwise, it's the similar color for the skin. And our skin change over the years...

KING: Oh, they do.

DAHL: Yes, they do. So you have to go with the color the nearest tone to your skin. Or if you want to shade a little bit...

LICHT: Larry, I think a part of it...

KING: All right, let Arlene finish.

DAHL: Or if you want to shade some areas that have become a little whiter than they should, then you choose one or two shades darker. But you always blend. And Trish has a wonderful brush set that has brushes for everything: lipstick, blending, everything.

KING: Leeza.

GIBBONS: Oh, yes. Blend, blend, blend that is the key. No doubt about that.

I think when you're looking for products, you want to look for what's not in it as much as what is in it sometimes, especially for women with sensitive skin. Or women who have some issue where they have breakouts, you know, perfumes and dyes, and talcs, and all kinds of things that maybe irritants. You certainly want to be on the lookout for that.

And I mean that's how I really got to this mineral-based makeup. You know, we're talking about enhancing beauty and that's lovely, and I do believe that that's a potential and possibility for all women. But a lot women that are using the mineral-based makeup is -- are doing it because they have a birthmark, they have rosacea, they have acne, they have scarring. They have something that they need to hide or that they need to cover up. And they need this makeup to really help unleash their ability to regain confidence in their lives. And that's a very pivotal thing for many women.

When we become smaller because of something with our exterior, that's just unacceptable for us to disappear and hide.

KING: Sarah, how do you choose what you buy?

HUGHES: I usually like to try new things. I have a nice base of natural things that I can use everyday. But you know, I'm young and I like to try like maybe a purple eyeliner or a different color lipstick or something...

KING: But how do you choose Revlon versus Arden?

HUGHES: It really depends on what I'm doing. I mean I really actually love Trish's products because her products come in little cases. And it's so convenient especially when you're always on the go, to have everything all together in one place.

KING: They sold everywhere, her products? Your products, they sold everywhere?

MCEVOY: I wish someday.

KING: Are you in prominent stores?

MCEVOY: Neiman's, Saks, Nordstrom's.

KING: Are you considered expensive?

MCEVOY: No, in between.

KING: Judy, how do you choose?

LICHT: I choose some really cheap stuff, some really expensive stuff. I think makeup is like fashion right now. The latest way to dress is to wear things by Target, things by Chanel, mix them up. And I go by texture, color and how it last. Obviously, I'm here because I wear a lot of Trish's stuff because I find it's organized, it's practical and I love the texture. But the bottom-line is you mix it up.

And the more important thing again is have somebody -- if you don't know what you're doing yourself, go to somebody. They all have free makeup people at these stands now. They'll -- if you don't know what you're doing, and you don't have the money to go to a makeup specialist, they'll do it for you. Go to three different places and see which way you like it best. And then pick the products.

KING: Jessie, how do you choose what you buy?

FEMINA: Whatever she's not using anymore.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Leftovers?

FEMINA: I take her leftovers. I steal from her makeup closet. But I don't really choose what to buy. I buy makeup when I need it.

KING: Why is there so much makeup in a woman's -- you go -- a woman's bathroom is a mini Saks.

FEMINA: Because it's so much fun.

DAHL: Yes.

KING: So it's fun to go buy this stuff.

FEMINA: It's so much fun. And it's fun to experiment. But before I started...

KING: Men don't find it fun to buy shaving cream.

FEMINA: No.

KING: You got to buy it. you go buy it.

MCEVOY: Some men do.

KING: Some men like it fun?

(CROSSTALK)

LICHT: Men haven't been objectified until the last five years. Now men's looks are important. So younger men are becoming metro- sexual or whatever that...

MCEVOY: That's right.

LICHT: ... because they're being judged by their looks too in business and by women. And so up until now, women knew they were being objectified. So the goal was, the end run was make yourself as pretty as you can. Now, guys are getting -- you see Larry...

KING: Oh, I'm influenced. I bought a $40 shaving cream.

DAHL: There you go.

KING: It says the best shave of your life. I don't know. The hair is gone.

DAHL: Was it? Was it the best shave?

KING: Well, I don't know. Gillett foam he gave me the best shave of my life. It felt good. It felt good.

DAHL: I think if women are challenged, for instance. If a woman marries a younger man, which I have done and we just celebrated our 20-anniversary.

MCEVOY: How much younger?

DAHL: Eighteen years.

MCEVOY: How fabulous.

DAHL: She is challenged to look her very best. She will exercise. She will eat right. She will diet. She will be as healthy as possible because you want to enjoy your life with him as long as possible, right?

KING: Is it difficult to wake up in the morning with someone who, say, didn't know who Adlai Stevenson was?

DAHL: Ah ha. Oh, he...

KING: A little joke.

(LAUGHTER)

DAHL: I think he did.

LICHT: I know.

KING: Get a good shot of Judy Licht; she'll never be back.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: We'll be back with more. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Trish McEvoy's book is "The Power of Makeup."

Has technology improved? Is the product better?

MCEVOY: Oh, my goodness! Yes. Yes!

KING: The chemicals are better?

MCEVOY: Absolutely. Years ago, when you had makeup put on by these wonderful makeup artists, was the technology as good as it is today?

DAHL: Absolutely not. My flay -- face blew up with pancake makeup. They had to make a new moisturizer makeup for me at Warner Brothers pers...

KING: Really?

DAHL: Yes.

KING: So there are after effects?

DAHL: I'm allergic to practically every makeup. So, things have to be made for me.

MCEVOY: Foundation today...

KING: Judy, you agree?

LICHT: Yes. I know the stuff they use to use on television sets, Larry you know that, it used to would be thick, and ugly, and horrible...

KING: Yes, heavy.

LICHT: It's heavy.

DAHL: Yes. Right. Awful. Lead base.

LICHT: Yes. I find that the lipstick are smoother, they stay on better. And the foundations look more natural.

KING: Basically Leeza, when they tell you wash off your makeup when you get home right away, does that mean it's bad for your skin? GIBBONS: Well, I mean I think anybody there will tell you that when you're young, you can get away with anything. You can stay out. You can drink too much wine. You don't have to get enough sleep. You can wake up the next day in your makeup from the night before...

KING: Just use...

GIBBONS: Bulletproof. Then you begin to sort of wear that. And the first place that you wear that is your skin. So, you know, I think it really is essential. I mean even if you're using something that as non-irritating as minerals, you still want to clean that canvas every night and moisturize it, and put the sunscreen on.

And you know, I think we all get to the point where you we go, gosh, I wish I'd listened to my mom. I was one of those that had the aluminum foil baking and the sun, you know, the Sun-In in my hair. And I just wish I'd never done all of that.

KING: You all deal with skin. What do you make of the tanning phenomena? Run in for 15 minutes, come out tanned.

MCEVOY: I think it's great if it's fake. Absolutely great.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Let's repeat that line.

MCEVOY: It's great.

KING: It's great if it's fake. In other words, not the sun. But you don't mind running into the tanning salon.

MCEVOY: Oh, no.

GIBBONS: Fake and bake is the way to go.

DAHL: I'm allergic to the sun.

KING: What did you say, Leeza?

GIBBONS: Fake and bake is the way to go. Tan in a tube...

DAHL: Fake and bake.

(LAUGHTER)

GIBBONS: ... all of that is good. I mean...

KING: Tan in a tube. Fake and bake.

DAHL: French-frying in the sun is out.

KING: Out.

DAHL: Out. Absolutely.

KING: But the sun used to be healthy. You don't remember this Sarah, a long time ago they used to say...

HUGHES: Yes. My mom always tells me she used sit in the sun for hours and hours.

KING: Tan was healthy like white was not healthy.

HUGHES: Right. And...

KING: Tan was healthy. Coppertone.

HUGHES: ... I am so pale. But you know what? I can't tan. I just burn to a crisp.

DAHL: That's right.

HUGHES: And so, I'm kind of afraid of the sun.

DAHL: Good.

KING: So, when we talk...

LICHT: I bet she's one with a...

KING: So, when we talk about makeup, Judy, we're also talking about your skin, right?

LICHT: Yes.

KING: Skin care and makeup go hand in hand, don't they?

LICHT: But you ne -- you know, everybody tells you that until you're about 30 and you don't believe them. It always sounds like some gobble-de-gook; some moralistic stuff. And then you hit 30, and God forbid 40 and onward, and that's when you pay, and pay, and pay, and pay. And that's when you really understand it much better. And that's unfortunately too late; you start taking care of yourself.

KING: How do you know what creams to buy, Trish? Skin creams. There are thousands of those.

DAHL: The ones that work best.

MCEVOY: That's exactly right. And how do you what works?

KING: Yes, how do you know?

MCEVOY: Trial and error.

DAHL: That's right.

MCEVOY: The key is really keeping things very simple.

DAHL: And read the ingredients on the packaging.

KING: But how do you know what you're reading?

DAHL: Because if you know what your skin doesn't like and you see it on the packaging, don't buy it.

KING: So you learn that from...

DAHL: Oh, yes! From trial and error.

MCEVOY: Also on packaging today...

KING: If it's the wrong cream, you can break out, right?

DAHL: That's right.

MCEVOY: On packaging today, most companies would tell you what the product does, and truthfully they will tell you what it does.

DAHL: Yes.

LICHT: You can ask a dermatologist if you really like a der...

KING: Not a bad idea.

LICHT: ... I mean some of them are not cosmetically oriented. But now a days, because that's where the money is, they all are sort of sophisticated about it. And if you don't have a good girlfriend who, you know -- just ask a dermatologist.

I mean somebody just gave a cream that shall remain nameless; but is a cult cream that sold for hundreds and hundreds of dollars as a present. I thought, Oh, this is great. I tried it and I found it was glop. I hated it. And I found a much less expensive thing that works much better for me.

KING: But it might have worked for someone else, right?

LICHT: Absolutely. Absolutely.

KING: Leeza...

GIBBONS: You know what ladies? I think what we are saying is this is your one and only lifetime. You have to kind of take custody of your life and be responsible for what you know. And I think that one of the beautiful things about aging is that you do get perspective. And you realize that you kind of have to go out there, and yes, try all the products. Learn about all the products. Understand that your skin is your biggest organ in your body and that it's effected by environmental things; everything you put into your body.

And once you begin to take that more seriously and stop taking for granted when you realize that it's vulnerable, you know, this is -- this is your life. So, go out there and create it.

KING: Not always easy though, is it? I mean this because you're on stage. The woman is on stage, isn't she everyday, Leeza?

MCEVOY: Nothing in life is easy, Larry. Nothing. Discipline is not easy. Taking care of your skin is not easy. Putting makeup on when you're in a hurry and you've got three kids is not easy. It depends on what you want to spend your life doing. And if you take the time to the discipline and the skin care, makeup, exercise, the way you eat, your body is going to show the difference.

And if you take care of yourself inside, most importantly, making sure that you are the person you want to be. That's the most important.

DAHL: And skin care, I think, starts from the cradle on up. My daughter and I are writing a book together called "Budding Beauties From Age Three To 10." I have eight grandchildren; six of them are girls. I have four of them between the ages of two and six. And good habits start early. You have to teach them about skin care...

KING: Fill the void.

DAHL: Oh! You have to teach them the right things to do. Bad habits are terrible thing to break. And some women never break them even when they're 30, 40, 50. And they look in the mirror and they see these wrinkles and they say, gee, I wish hadn't French-fried when I was 14, 16, something like that.

LICHT: We used to feel it was guilty, that this whole conversation was fluff and vanity. The bottom-line is you're being judged. And learning how to present yourself well, whether it's through makeup or keeping care -- you know, good haircut or whatever, is just as important as learning how to speak publicly, how to read good books. You -- what you are on the outside now, the style is just as important as the substance. The style is the substance. Getting back to that thing.

And I think that makeup was, you know, it sounds like, Oh, we're just talking about makeup. We're not. We're talking about how you present yourself.

KING: You can't judge a book by its cover but the cover is important.

MCEVOY: And I think what Leeza said is important.

DAHL: You want to pick up the cover.

KING: That's right.

DAHL: You want to pick up the packaging.

KING: Correct.

DAHL: Yes!

MCEVOY: And as Leeza said, we're responsible...

DAHL: Yes!

MCEVOY: ... for our lives.

DAHL: Absolutely and how we look.

KING: We'll be back with our re...

MCEVOY: And how we look.

KING: ... with our remaining moments of our outstanding panel talking about you and how you look. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: The book Trish McEvoy's, "The Power of Makeup."

The biggest mistake you have ever made makeup wise, lipstick wise.

MCEVOY: Not blending well enough. All of us have to blend, blend, blend.

KING: And did you realize that after you were out all ready?

MCEVOY: Unfortunately, yes.

KING: You thought you looked terrible.

MCEVOY: Well, I wouldn't say terrible but I needed to blend. Absolutely...

KING: I bet you got compliments.

MCEVOY: On my blending?

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Good blending.

Arlene.

DAHL: I always believe in blending in.

(LAUGHTER)

No, I think using the makeup that other actresses were using and blowing up, you know, being allergic to it, I almost didn't have a career in motion pictures.

KING: Really?

DAHL: Oh, absolutely.

KING: The wrong makeup?

DAHL: The wrong makeup.

KING: Sarah.

HUGHES: Oh, I say way too much bronzer. And because I'm so pale, the orange and stuff like, probably kind of similar to your mistake.

KING: Is lighting sometime a problem because you're looking in one light and then you go outside and it's a different light?

HUGHES: Yes. It's most important to always use natural light. That's what I found.

KING: Judy, a mistake.

LICHT: Not caring enough about my makeup when I was doing newscasts. And the station I was working for was cheap so they cut away a makeup artist, it was local. And not paying enough attention to it at the time because it was more important than I thought.

KING: Jessie.

FEMINA: Thinking that I should express my every feeling on my face.

(LAUGHTER)

When I was young, I used to use eyeliner and extend it out to there and curl it around at the end. Just because I thought it was pretty like...

KING: So you could smile and frown at the same time?

(LAUGHTER)

FEMINA: I thought my face was a canvas. I don't know.

KING: Leeza, beauty. Did you ever make a mistake, Leeza?

GIBBONS: Oh, please! I made all of my mistakes on the air and still am allowed to be back on. I don't know why.

(LAUGHTER)

GIBBONS: I think too much mascara. Like, I'm depressed. I didn't get that job; you just keep putting that on. I think we use it as some sort of a therapy device. So, I need to learn to back away from the wand. Get away from the mirror and leave it alone honey.

KING: When women do this, OK, this with the eyebrows. Why do they have to do it 172 times?

MCEVOY: They want more.

KING: Why not 171?

MCEVOY: More.

KING: Why?

LICHT: With our mouths open.

DAHL: Yes. Right. Right.

KING: Why?

DAHL: Well, first they curl their eyelashes, if they have any.

KING: Yes. But how many times you have to do it?

DAHL: And then you have to keep doing it, and wait until it dries and do it again. If you have thin lashes, and most blondes and redheads have thin lashes, so they have to apply, as you know, three or four coats before it shows.

LICHT: It's therapy. Let's face it.

(LAUGHTER)

LICHT: I agree with Leeza. You know, when you're de -- you know, it gives you time to think. It's therapy. It's like repetitive motion. It's a mantra.

KING: Is it all part of a package, Trish? I mean like, hairspray, is that part of this whole thing?

MCEVOY: Oh, it's style. Absolutely.

KING: You make hairspray?

MCEVOY: No. No. I do not.

KING: How did you miss out on that?

MCEVOY: Maybe I will.

DAHL: Not yet.

(LAUGHTER)

MCEVOY: Makeup is part of style. Your hair, your clothing, it's how you present yourself to the world.

DAHL: It's your presentation. You pick up a package because it looks beautiful and you examine it. You pick up a book because it has a good-looking cover. You pick up a girl because she's attractive.

KING: Are you...

LICHT: Or a guy.

KING: Are you affected...

LICHT: Or a guy.

KING: Leeza, are you affected by advertising?

GIBBONS: Oh, my goodness. I think we're all affected by advertising. And I think when we're aware of its effect on us, it's even more beautiful because you know, I mean we're a society of images and impressions. And that's how you break out. And that's how -- you know, there's so much clutter and so much glut. And you know, especially in the area of makeup for women.

And being the dad of sons, Larry, we were talking about how many products we all have. I know my husband rolls his eyes and says, how many do you use. Well, we like to have sons. So, I have two sons and a daughter and I'm -- you know, I'm wanting my sons to recognize that just let us have that thing. Just give us that part of it and you know, you'll be a lot happier in your relationships.

KING: Do men do makeup? I mean other than like going on television.

DAHL: Skin creams, moisturizers...

MCEVOY: bronzers.

DAHL: Bronzers.

MCEVOY: Concealers.

DAHL: And a lot more need the bronzers, especially when other businessmen are catching up...

MCEVOY: Times are changing, Larry.

DAHL: Yes! They are.

MCEVOY: You, to, maybe wearing bronzers next year.

KING: What is a bronzer?

DAHL: Oh.

LICHT: It makes you bronze.

KING: You mean you put it on...

LICHT: Yes. It's like a tan but it's makeup.

KING: But you'd have to put it on your hands too or you'll look weird.

(CROSSTALK)

FEMINA: I've tried that.

KING: You look two-toned.

DAHL: It makes your skin shine as against a dry, pancake makeup. It doesn't shine. It's very blah.

KING: As a society Leeza, are we all getting better at this.

GIBBONS: Better at taking charge... KING: Looking better, taking charge, all those things.

GIBBONS: Absolutely. I think we recognize now -- we've kind of come clean about it. I think we recognize it's a valuable thing. It's not completely superfluous. That it's OK to have fun. It's OK to experiment. It's OK to choose to do it or not to do it.

But as women we've worked so hard to have choice. Now that we have choice, you know, as Trish says so beautifully in her book, if you want to be a Level 1, great. There are days when you want to do that. You know, when you're the soccer mom, be a Level 1. When you want to be more dramatic and expressive, and try on different roles and different integrations of you, then we should have fun with that. And should not apologize for it, I think. It's an empowerment tool. I do believe that.

KING: We only have a little while left. Can you cover acne, Trish?

MCEVOY: Absolutely.

KING: In young girls, you can...

MCEVOY: Absolutely. It's very easy. You just take a little bit of concealer, place it right on the blemish, blend with a Q-tip.

KING: So, there's no reason for anyone to walk around having acne on their skin showing?

MCEVOY: Absolutely.

KING: It doesn't cure it.

MCEVOY: It doesn't cure it but it makes you feel better about your skin.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Sarah, why are you laughing?

HUGHES: It's a very difficult thing to do when you're very young. I mean when you're 10, 11, 12 and your skin starts breaking out, I mean you just try to put whatever you can on your face...

DAHL: You want to hide.

HUGHES: ... to try to conceal it. And then it ends up sticking out more than the concealer.

GIBBONS: But see that's exactly the problem, you're so right. And young girls will become more conspicuous because they've got cakey makeup and it's streaky and it's orange, and all that. That's why a lot of young girls are honestly going with the sheer cover because like Trish said, it's the concealer, and then you put the powder on over it. And you're good to go and it doesn't look like you're trying to cover something up. KING: We have thoroughly enjoyed this hour. Hope you have to and hope it helps.

Trish McEvoy's book is "The Power of Makeup, Looking Your Level Best at Every Age." Judy Licht is seen on the WE Network. Jessie Della Femina, you can buy her clothing at stores everywhere. Leeza Gibbons is everywhere. Sarah Hughes is a student at Yale in the line of Jodie Foster. The 2002 Olympic Gold Medal in women's figure skating. And the wonderful Arlene Dahl, who is just ageless...

DAHL: Oh!

KING: And precious.

DAHL: Larry, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KING: We thank you all very much. And I'll be back in a minute, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We may do this on a regular basis, Larry and the ladies.

DAHL: Oh!

KING: Hell, beats work. We hope you enjoyed this hour of LARRY KING LIVE. Stay tuned now for news around the clock on the most trusted name in news, CNN. Have a great rest of the weekend. Goodnight.

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