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CNN Larry King Live
Panel Discusses 10th Anniversary of Nicole Simpson, Ron Goldman Murders
Aired June 19, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury, in the above entitled action, find the defendent Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder...
LARRY KING, HOST: It was the trial of the century. And now exclusive, 10 years after the shocking murders that started it all, family members of both victims, Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, tell us how they feel.
With us tonight is Denise Brown, sister of Nicole Brown Simpson, Fred Goldman, the father of the late Ron Goldman and Ron's sister, Kim. Plus, former LAPD detectives, Tom Lange and Phil Vannatter, lead investigators in the murders. They're all next, exclusive, on LARRY KING LIVE.
(on camera): On June 12, 1994, tomorrow, O.J. Simpson's ex-wife Nicole Brown and her friend, Ron Goldman, were brutally murdered outside her condo in Brentwood, California. On October 3, 1995, O.J. Simpson was acquitted of the double murder by a jury deliberating less than four hours following the televised "trial of the century" that lasted nine months. He was later found liable for the murders in a 1997 civil suit and ordered to pay more than $33 million in damages to the families of Nicole and Ron.
Denise Brown is now chairperson of the Nicole Brown Charitable Foundation, anti-domestic violence advocate and working on a TV pilot called "Predators." Fred Goldman -- he and his wife moved to Arizona after the '97 trial. He became, by the way, a grandfather last year. How did he become a grandfather? Because of Kim Goldman. Kim married Mike Hahn (ph), she has a little boy -- she has a little boy named Samuel Ronald -- we know who Ronald's named after -- is state director for Best Buddies California, a non-profit organization dedicated to enhancing the lives of people with intellectual disabilities.
Tom Lange retired from the LA Police Department in '96. He's now a licensed private investigator. And Phil Vannatter is retired from the LA Police Department in '96 and now chief deputy for Dearborn County, Indiana.
Denise, do you think of your sister often?
DENISE BROWN, SISTER OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: All the time. There is a day that does not go by that I don't think of Nicole, and especially now, with everybody turning this into -- you know, I guess the media does five-year, ten-year, and these are, like, the big anniversaries for the media. And it just takes you back to that day of hearing my mother scream and me running into the room. And it was Tom Lange who was on the other end of the telephone when I grabbed the phone from my mother.
KING: Are you angry that O.J. has done appearances, by the way?
BROWN: I don't know -- I don't understand why people are giving him air time. Shame on Greta. Shame on Katie. Shame on Catherine Crier. I mean, why are these people doing that? Why are they giving him any air time at all? What does he -- what is he giving to society?
KING: We'll get back to that. Fred, do you think about Ron a lot?
FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RON GOLDMAN: Every single day.
KING: Really? You never...
F. GOLDMAN: Not a day that goes by that something doesn't bring Ron's memory to my -- to the forefront. Always back there.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Does an anniversary bring it more to the forefront?
F. GOLDMAN: Honestly, no. For me, it's the same every day. Whether it be ten years, nine years and 12 days or whatever it might be, it's always the same. The only thing different about tomorrow will be that the media's made a big splash about it.
KING: Do you feel the same as Denise about his appearances?
F. GOLDMAN: Absolutely. I don't know what he offers to anyone. He's a liar. He's a wife-beater. And worst of all, he's a murderer. And why we, as a society, are willing to give a voice to a murderer -- even though he's not convicted, he was found responsible, and the vast majority of the world knows he's guilty.
KING: Did you ever collect anything on the...
F. GOLDMAN: Not a penny.
KING: No? Kim, we all remember how close you were to your brother. You had a job in San Francisco. You gave it up. You came down, you attended the trial. Now you're married. You have a little boy.
K. GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: Yes.
KING: You named his Samuel Ronald, right?
K. GOLDMAN: I did. Yes, Samuel Ronald.
KING: Do you think about your brother often? K. GOLDMAN: Yes. It's -- it seems a little cliched to say yes, every, you know, second of every day, but there is not a day that doesn't go by that I don't think about my brother, I mean, especially looking in the eyes of my son and definitely looking to see if there's any resemblance to my brother.
KING: Noticed any yet?
K. GOLDMAN: I think I created it.
(LAUGHTER)
K. GOLDMAN: I don't know for sure. But I definitely am looking for it. I'm definitely looking into Sammy's eyes to make sure that I can bring my brother to life in some way. So yes, I make a conscious effort.
KING: Tom, you were one of the lead investigators in this murder. You think back about it?
TOM LANGE, INVESTIGATED MURDERS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND RON GOLDMAN: Sure, think about it all the time. What I think probably more about is the evidence and what happened to the evidence during the trial. I think about the lack of exculpatory evidence. I mean, there's no questions in this case. There's never been any mysteries in this case. There's nothing unanswered.
KING: Did you ever have a doubt in this case that you had the wrong man?
LANGE: No. And along those lines, we looked at 50 additional suspects and eliminated them. In a murder investigation, the very first thing any investigator's going to look for is something exculpatory. Once you discover that, it can only strengthen your investigation. This case is very rare that it had none, just absolutely nothing exculpatory in this case.
KING: In other words, you...
LANGE: Everything points in one direction.
KING: You don't want to see people have evidence against them. You want -- you want it so you can clear them, right?
LANGE: Well, yes.
KING: Yes.
LANGE: You run them through the mill, so to speak...
KING: Yes.
LANGE: ... and you do -- you do attempt to clear those people. But everything in this case only goes in one direction.
KING: And Phil, do you think about it? PHIL VANNATTER, INVESTIGATED MURDERS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND RON GOLDMAN: You know, I do, but I don't think I think about it every day anymore. The thing I really think about was the -- the disparaging allegations made against some very fine people who did a very good job at bringing a guy to the bar of justice for murder.
And I look at this time as an anniversary of these two people, two precious people that lost their lives. And the heck with this fellow that -- that was not found guilty that should have been found guilty.
I don't think of it every day, but I do occasionally. It'll go through me because now I'm back into law enforcement, and I -- and I -- and you know, you can always think, Could I have done something different? And I'm -- and I'm instructing people now that work for me, you know, Let's -- let's really look at this and let's do things, because of what happened to me. And...
KING: Was it a slam dunk?
VANNATTER: Oh, it -- Larry, I worked homicide for over 20 years, and I never had a case that I had a preponderance of evidence like this in. This is the most evidence I have ever seen in a murder case.
KING: All right. Let's discuss some of the things said in interviews about some of you. About Denise O.J. said recently, "I am sure the income is down on the foundation that she works for, which I would imagine makes her income go down. I don't think anyone's bills have been paid more than Denise's from what came from this trial."
The contention is you have profited from this death.
BROWN: Oh, and I know, and we did an interview on this once. And I have made $17,000 from this -- from the Nicole Brown Charitable Foundation. And when people started accusing me of stealing money and doing all of that, the attorney general stepped in. We got a clean bill of health from the attorney general's office. Everything was OK.
But what I did is, I went to the board of directors and I told them, Either we're changing our focus because nobody seems to be happy about how much money we're giving anybody -- and so we did. We changed our focus. And what we're doing now is focusing on transitional housing.
And I did have a book deal. Yes, I had a million-dollar book deal, and that million-dollar book deal was with Judith Regan, and she didn't like the story that she got. She wanted to have the tabloid. She wanted to have the cocaine, the drugs, the dancing, all that stuff. And I said, well, wait a minute. I said, Judith, I said, this is not my sister. This is not my sister's life.
KING: She wanted...
BROWN: She hated that life...
KING: ...bad things about your sister? BROWN: Oh, she wanted the tabloid. "The National Enquirer" had done a story, and that's what she wanted. And I said, you know what? Nobody can pay me enough money to write a story like that about my sister.
KING: Why does O.J. pick on you, do you think?
BROWN: Oh, maybe because he doesn't like me.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: You were so vehement...
BROWN: And I don't like him.
KING: You were so vehement about him, right?
BROWN: Well, because I know he murdered Nicole. I mean, when -- when I -- when Tom Lange, I was on the other phone, end of the phone, and he goes -- I said, Who is this? Who is this? He goes, It's Detective Tom Lange. And I said, Oh, my God! He finally did it. And -- Tom says, he goes, Who? And I go, O.J. Simpson, he finally killed my sister. He did it.
KING: We'll get a break and we'll come right back. Tomorrow's the 10th anniversary. Time flies. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, police radio is saying that Simpson has a gun at his head. Police radio is saying that Simpson, the passenger in the car, has a gun at his head. Which has explained why they haven't been stopping and why they haven't moved up along side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, no.
KING: The voice saying oh, no is John Mack, president of the LA Urban league. If you've just joined us, this is LARRY KING LIVE in Washington. We're viewing a car, apparently being driven by Al Cowlings, one of O.J.'s oldest friends and a former teammate at Southern Cal. And the police radio is reporting that O.J. is the passenger in the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. About Fred Goldman, O.J. has said that you took advantage of this, and people like you and Marcia Clark got such an opportunity from this. People signed them to contracts -- accusing you of profiting off of your son's death.
F. GOLDMAN: The man is a damn liar, OK? We haven't signed contract one and haven't profited in any way or benefited in any way. To even suggest that gives you an indication of what kind of a sick SOB this guy is. KING: Why did you...
F. GOLDMAN: How dare he suggest that any of us profited in any way? We have all lost the most precious thing on the face of the earth, and this guy thinks in terms of how people profit. The only one that gained from this was him. He retains his life, his freedom and his chance to continue day after day. He's the one that profited.
KING: Why did you collect no money?
F. GOLDMAN: Well, first of all, he makes a point of telling the world on a regular basis that he will never pay a dime of that judgment, that he'll do whatever he has to do not to pay a dime. So that's No. 1. No. 2, he has moved to Florida to make sure that he protects whatever he has additionally. He protects some income that he makes, and he protects his home. So he's never going to pay a dime...
KING: Florida is, like, a debtors' state, right?
F. GOLDMAN: Right. He's going to make certain, no matter what he does, that he never honors the judgment, that which the vast majority of people in this country would have to do if they had a judgment against them.
KING: Kim, what do you make of him?
K. GOLDMAN: You know what? I -- it's difficult because I try not to give him any more attention and focus than he already does. I mean, every day that I wake up and my brother's not here, I only have one person to blame. So when people ask me what do I think about him, it's -- it's -- it's like I don't think about him. But when I am faced with these kind of things, it's, like, you know, saying that he's a murderer doesn't seem to just...
KING: I know.
K. GOLDMAN: ... encapsulate it. You know, saying he's an SOB just isn't enough. And so you know, when I listen to him make these comments, it's not surprising to me. I mean, what do you expect from someone that does this, you know? I -- it doesn't surprise me that here he is shotting his mouth off, and you know, a couple months go by, and he does something stupid to get his name in the paper.
He's a narcissist. He misses the attention. He does whatever he can to make sure that someone's paying attention to him. And then he gives, you know, the big finger to the rest of us. You know, what kind of a remorseful, innocent person is this? I mean, it's -- it's absurd to me. I don't...
KING: Were you at his arrest, Tom?
LANGE: The -- when he turned himself in...
KING: Yes. LANGE: ... the first time? No, actually, I was back at the Bundy location, and Phil was there at Rockingham when he came in from the airport, if that's what you're talking about.
KING: You were there, Phil?
VANNATTER: Well, I was there when he came to the house...
KING: Yes.
VANNATTER: ... the day that I was doing the search warrant. Yes, I was there. I was the one that went out and took the handcuffs off from him and -- and you know, at that point, there was no doubt in my mind that I was dealing with the right person.
KING: Why?
VANNATTER: Well, I...
KING: It was so early.
VANNATTER: Yes, but I had overwhelming evidence already. I had a blood trail that led right from the -- from the scene, carried by his vehicle right to his house and then started at the back of his vehicle and went right up the driveway, right through the front door of his home. And plus, we had the glove at the side of the house and -- and just mysteriously, he had the injury on his hand that just matched up perfect with everything. And at that point, I was sure that I was dealing with the right person.
KING: Denise, do you ever think of why did he do it? In other words, does that ever ponder your mind? There are a lot of husbands are bad to their wives and cheat on their wives, and a lot of husbands who hit their wives, but a very small percentage of them kill their wives.
BROWN: Well, it's about power and control. He could not control Nicole any longer. Nicole left him. Even the stalking -- even the night that we were at Mezzaluna, he drove by. Nicole said, Look, there he goes. You know, the stalking just was overwhelming for her. She couldn't deal with it. She didn't -- she was afraid. And it just got to the point where he knew that she was gone, she was leaving, and that he didn't -- he had lost control because he did not go to Mezzaluna.
F. GOLDMAN: You know, additionally, you know, I think -- every time I heard him during -- during deposition, he always referred to...
KING: You attended the civil deposition. Yes.
F. GOLDMAN: Yes. He always referred to Nicole in terms of property.
BROWN: Oh, absolutely.
F. GOLDMAN: She was his to do with as he wanted. He referred to his house, his bedroom, his door to the bedroom. Everything was his. And my sense is, this is a man -- man, if you can call him that -- this is a guy who beat up Nicole. During the civil trial, we learned about how violent he had been while he was a sportscaster.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You split her lip, didn't you?
O.J. SIMPSON, FRM. FOOTBALL STAR: That is incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You hit her with your fist and you caused her lip to split open, is that right?
O.J. SIMPSON: That is incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you caused scars on her fact, didn't you?
O.J. SIMPSON: That's incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black and blue marks on her face.
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes, that's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was a result of your hands touching her, violently, correct?
O.J. SIMPSON: Touching her, violently?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, hitting her.
O.J. SIMPSON: That's incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, how's that incorrect?
O.J. SIMPSON: I didn't hit her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do to her?
O.J. SIMPSON: I wrestled her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: He had property that -- he didn't like the way she behaved, and it was his to do with as he wanted.
Remember, you know, I -- we can't forget, he went there with black clothes on, a mask, gloves...
KING: You think he went there to kill her.
F. GOLDMAN: Oh, absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
VANNATTER: Isn't that typical of a wife abuser? I mean, he set the perfect form of a wife abuser, and at that point the wife is not a soulmate or anything, they're a piece of property. And that's exactly how he felt about it.
KING: You think he rationalizes that he's entitled to do what...
VANNATTER: Yes, I don't think he thinks he did anything wrong. I think he thinks what he did was OK.
LANGE: Ten years later here he is still today making comments about Nicole, blaming Nicole for not being around to take care of his children. Ten years later it's all her fault.
KING: Why do you think Ron died?
F. GOLDMAN: I think Ron died because one, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was willing to do something for somebody else. I am convinced to this day that the person that ultimately -- I don't remember the witnesses -- when he heard hey, hey, hey, I believe that was Ron who came upon...
LANGE: Absolutely.
F. GOLDMAN: ...I don't ever use his name -- him, the killer -- hitting Nicole, knocking her out and then Ron fought, and ultimately he went back and...
KING: In other words, he could have run away?
BROWN: He could have.
F. GOLDMAN: I think he could have but he didn't.
VANNATTER: I think Fred is absolutely right. Ron...
KING: Was a hero?
VANNATTER: Yes, he walked on to something that he didn't realize. He was trying to do a favor and he tried to stop it and...
K. GOLDMAN: He was a decent, decent human being.
(CROSSTALK)
K. GOLDMAN: Who wanted to protect a woman that he liked, and he was not going to allow anybody, anybody to do anything bad to her.
KING: Let me get a break and we'll be right back with Denise Brown, Fred Goldman, Kim Goldman, Tom Lange, and Phil Vannatter, together again. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: I never punched anyone, other than when I was a teenager, in their face. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never struck anyone in their fact, correct? O.J. SIMPSON: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you never hurt your wife, either, correct?
O.J. SIMPSON: No, I hurt my wife, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never struck her with your hands, correct?
O.J. SIMPSON: I never punched her, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ever strike her?
O.J. SIMPSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ever hurt her?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever physically hurt her?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever bruise her?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with our panel. In an interview with Katie Couric O.J. says that the subject of Nicole's murder has never, ever come up between him and his children. That he's paid some of the best child psychiatrists in the country who say when the kids are ready to talk about it, they'll talk about it.
BROWN: You know what's interesting to me about that? I heard that quote, and then he is quoted in Greta's interview as saying that we toasted her on -- you know...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I mean, come on.
KING: ... her birthday, not the anniversary of her death.
K. GOLDMAN: And I think -- I don't know, Denise, obviously you can speak better, but I think it's unhealthy to not talk about Nicole in that household. I mean, how...
BROWN: We talk about Nicole.
K. GOLDMAN: You do, but...
KING: When do you see the kids?
BROWN: Well, according to him, never. We see them summertime and we see them Christmastime. But what we...
KING: They come to you, they stay with their parents?
BROWN: With their grandparents?
KING: With their grandparents.
BROWN: Yes, with their grandparents. And since I lived there, I do see them. Whenever they're there.
KING: How are they?
BROWN: They're great, yes, thanks.
KING: How old are they now?
BROWN: Sydney's 18. She graduated high school, and Justin's 15. They're doing great. And you know, it is a topic that does not come up, because I...
KING: You don't bring it up?
BROWN: We don't bring it up, only because these children have been hurt so much already that why hurt them again. Why hurt them more? If they were to ask me the question, though, and I did tell Sydney, I said, "Sydney, your father and I, we do not like each other, but I love you, and if you ever want to talk, if you ever want to know anything, I will always be there for you and I will always tell them the truth.
KING: And she doesn't want to talk?
BROWN: She doesn't want to talk, yes.
LANGE: Wasn't there a time that -- that she called 911 over him?
BROWN: Yes, she called 911 and the circumstances...
LANGE: In Florida?
BROWN: In Florida -- and you know, ever since the Orange County courts have given him these children, I have worried every day about them, because there was a time when Simpson said, "You are just like your mother." And I thought, oh my God.
F. GOLDMAN: What a scary thought, right?
BROWN: He killed her mother, and he is referring to Sydney as Nicole. It was like "Oh my God."
F. GOLDMAN: What worries me about those two kids is that they're living in a house with a murderer. OK. They are living in a house with a man -- here, I use the term again, "man," with a monster who believes women are property, who obviously treats women like dirt, and unfortunately I don't know how some of that ultimately doesn't rub off on those two kids, and what it's going to ultimately do to their life in the future.
KING: And Denise, you said they seemed fine?
BROWN: They do seem fine. But there is also a cycle of domestic violence. Little girls who live in a household of violence, they remember that and they become victims themselves. Little boys will become batterers themselves or totally turn the other way. I mean, I have seen far and few between that have turned the other way and broken that cycle of domestic violence, but as far as Sydney did see a lot, I believe.
KING: Is there a pattern, Tom, to domestic killings?
LANGE: Sure. Yeah. And you can see if you look at this guy's background, and unfortunately we didn't see a lot of this in the trial, his pattern not only goes to domestic violence, it goes to stalking. We had a situation just six months before when Nicole was living on Gretna (ph) Green, when he was stalking her at home in the middle of the night.
KING: You mean like walking around the house?
LANGE: Well, not only walking around, but looking in the windows. We found a witness that we never saw in trial for other reasons that saw him with this stocking mask, the same one that was found at the crime scene, six months before. Stalking her at the home before.
BROWN: Well, you know, also the whole thing about the Mafia and the drug deals and all that, no, that was a story I heard a month before on Mother's Day. He was sitting there telling us on how he was driving down the freeway and he had these three cars following him and it was a whole thing of, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, he premeditated this murder. Not that he just did not do it, he premeditated it.
LANGE: One thing of interest that hasn't come out that also should have during the trial is another bit of evidence that wasn't introduced, and that was the fact that Nicole had reported her house keys stolen some ten days before this ever happened. She told them (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: Right, right.
LANGE: This is just 10 days before she said, "I think OJ has the keys." Well after the chase, guess what we find in his pocket? The keys.
KING: How did the state lose this case?
VANNATTER: Boy, that is a loaded question.
BROWN: Where do we begin?
VANNATTER: That is a loaded question.
(CROSSTALK) VANNATTER: How did they lose it? Well, you know what? I think I truly believe they put on enough evidence to win this case beyond a reasonable doubt. I think -- I think the problem of this whole thing was the political atmosphere of Los Angeles, the feelings by some people about the Los Angeles Police Department, and so on and so forth.
But you know what? They could have done a better job. There is so much evidence they didn't put on, so many witnesses they didn't put on and that should be a matter for a jury to hear those people and make their determinations.
LANGE: You can never have too much evidence in a murder case. To this day people say, "Well, where's the clothing, where's the weapon, where's the shoes?" We actually found a witness while under trial that will tell you he saw Simpson the night of the murders with his arm buried in a trash container at LAX. Then his arm went to an open half-moon shaped flight bag, he zipped it closed, picked it up and walked inside. This is the little bag we've all been looking for.
F. GOLDMAN: But you know, when it all comes down to this. There was more than enough evidence to convict him. But I've always taken the position that if you have to blame anyone in particular, aside from the jury, who obviously, couldn't have cared less, with less than four hours of deliberation. If you had to blame anybody, for me, it's Judge Ito, who turned that courtroom into a daily circus.
KING: Let me pick that up in a minute. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE LANCE ITO, PRESIDED OF SIMPSON CASE: For the sake of the argument that what you say is correct, that this misrepresentation has been made to the court, what action, or sanction do you seek as a result?
MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTED O.J. SIMPSON CASE: I think that the witness should be precluded from testifying. I think that Mr. Bailey should be cited for contempt and fined substantially. As an officer of the court, he has lied to this court. He's impeached by his own witness.
F. LEE BAILEY, O.J. SIMPSON DEFENSE TEAM: I ask that you put a stop to it. Either put Cordoba (ph) on the stand...
CLARK: Excuse me, Mr. Bailey. Stand up and speak when it's your turn.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do after dinner with Goldman?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got up and -- we got up and we walked out. And Nicole was going to go get some ice cream with the kids. And we kissed eachother good-bye. The last thing I told her, is that I loved her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Our guests are Denise Brown, the sister of the late Nicole Brown Simpson and the chairperson of the Nicole Brown Charitable Foundation. Fred Goldman, father of the late Ron Goldman. Kim Goldman, who is Kim Goldman Hahn, the sister of the late Ron Goldman. Tom Lange, the retired LAPD detective, one of the lead investigators in the case. And Phil Vannatter, also a retired detective, one of the lead investigators. He and Tom, by the way, co-authored a book, "Evidence Dismissed: The Inside Story of the Police Investigation of OJ Simpson."
You were saying about Judge Ito? You blame him the most. Why?
F. GOLDMAN: I blame him the most because he allowed the courtroom to be turned into a circus. He allowed total control to be abdicated to Cochran. He allowed things to be revisited on a daily basis. He allowed everything.
By contrast in the civil trial, as an example, things like racism, planting of evidence, conspiracy, all of that didn't come in, because the judge simply said to his lawyers, "Give me some piece of evidence that would suggest that there is any reason to go there." The answer was there wasn't any reason, but Ito let it all in. He opened the floodgates and once it started it never stopped.
VANNATTER: I think -- I think what he let happen was he let this trial become entertainment, instead of a trial for justice. He let it become entertainment..
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The statement is racist and he is the racist, not me.
JOHNNIE COCHRAN, O.J. SIMPSON DEFENSE TEAM: I didn't say...
UNIDENIFIED MALE: Well, well -- I mean, but that is what you're suggesting and that's what, you know, has created a lot problems for my family and myself. Statements that you make about me and race, Mr. Cochran...
COCHRAN: Well, you stop...
(CROSSTALK)
ITO: Wait, wait. I'm about to hold both of you in contempt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VANNATTER: Instead of a trial for justice, he let it become entertainment for the entire country. And that is the worst mistake...
KING: You think he liked the television attention? LANGE: Oh, I think he loved the attention.
K. GOLDMAN: I think he had the late lunches because celebrities were coming into his chambers. And we would be siting in the galley waiting, and then out would walk some famous person and then Ito would come out and, "See you later! Thanks for stopping by."
LANGE: Why live TV coverage? Why would you need live TV coverage, when you know anybody would know that's going to affect any testimony coming from the witness stand.
K. GOLDMAN: But I also don't feel that there is any piece of evidence that didn't come in that would have been the one -- the smoking gun.
KING: You think nothing would have won that case?
K. GOLDMAN: I don't think that anything could. I think at this point, it's easy for us to sit in hindsight and look back and think that, oh, well if we would have put the Bronco chase in, that would have been the clincher. When it's obvious, it's obvious, you know, you ask the jury, they stopped listening. They told you they were ready to go, they had their bags packed, before they even got the case. What evidence...
LANGE: Well when did they start listening?
K. GOLDMAN: Well, that's the point, but I don't know that there's anything that could have -- a videotape, I don't know that anything would have made a difference. And that's really sad.
F. GOLDMAN: The little things that took place in court every day. Every time Cochran got out of his chair and straightened his jacket and strutted across the courtroom and, "Good afternoon, your honor." And the judge would say, "How are you, Mr. Cochran?" But there was almost that playfulness going on on a daily basis that at the time I dismissed and thought, "Never going to matter."
KING: Do you resent the defense, Denise?
BROWN: Well, I think that, yeah, I do. I think Johnny Cochran did a huge injustice for our country. Yes, I think he set us back about 100 years and racism...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Racism should not have been a part of this. They were married, they were together, ever since Nicole was 18 years old. They had two children, why did race play a part in this case at all?
KING: You don't say that he didn't have a right to a defense?
BROWN: Oh, he -- absolutely, everybody has a right to a defense.
KING: You thought that defense was...
BROWN: But I think Johnny Cochran did a huge disservice for our country.
LANGE: Well, the thing about Johnny, Johnny lied in his opening and he lied in his closing about evidence that he did not have. Maryanne Gershis(ph), the witness who saw everything. We never saw her. It was all nonsense. He lied about Phil. He even lied about Fuhrman planting evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COCHRAN: Why was the glove still moist when Furhman found it, if Mr. Simpson had dropped it 7 hours earlier?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Did Fuhrman hurt your side, though?
LANGE: Yes, of course he did.
VANNATTER: He was the vehicle -- he was the vehicle that allowed Johnny Cochran to refocus this thing from a trial of Simpson for this double murder to a trial of the Los Angeles Police Department.
LANGE: You don't plead the Fifth on the stand. I've never see an LA cop do that.
F. GOLDMAN: And I think they had Fuhrman in a position where they had learned that he used the N-word. So they were going to paint him as a racist. But the worst thing -- the additional thing came when Fuhrman denied it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you, therefore saying, that you have not used that word in the past 10 years, Detective Fuhrman?
MARK FUHRMAN, FRM. LAPD DETECTIVE: Yes, that's what I'm saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: Now he became a lying racist, and it all went downhill from that point.
But like Denise said a minute ago, there was no race involved in this. Cochran created it. There was never an ounce of evidence, other than Fuhrman having use the N-word, that race played any role whatsoever. But it became a major focus. A major focus, and like Denise said, it set race relations back decades.
KING: In other words, why would Fuhrman concoct a plot?
(CROSSTALK)
LANGE: Fuhrman he was used, but unfortunately he fell into it. Everybody in the world knew he was getting set up by Bailey except him.
F. GOLDMAN: If I go back to Ito, he could have stopped a lot of what took place, but he didn't.
KING: We'll take a break and come right back with more. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stabs and he cuts and he slices until that rage is gone, until these people are dead. We've shown you that he would have killed, could have killed and did kill these 2 people.
COCHRAN: With the witnesses that they failed and refused to call, establish a reasonable doubt, it shatters the prosecution case. If you start there, you find these witnesses credible, O.J. Simpson couldn't have committed these crimes. There reasonable doubt, he's not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: That they will find as the record stands now, that I did not, could not and would not have committed this crime. I have 4 kids, 2 kids I haven't seen in a year. They ask me every week, dad, how much longer, until this trial over.
R. GOLDMAN: I will never see my son again. How dare he throw that up for the world to hear and feel sorry for him. He's where he is, because he committed murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: What did you think of the prosecution, Tom, how well they did?
LANGE: Well, as I said earlier, you never have too much evidence in a murder case, and I think they played with the evidence. I think they attempted to anticipate what the defense was going to do. I think that was a big mistake.
I think there was plenty of evidence that the police were involved with putting together -- that they didn't want anything to do with it because they knew this was going to be a case of LAPD on trial. They didn't want to get too close to the police, because we would have to introduce that evidence, introduce the things that we did. They would rather put everything on the blood evidence, and I think that was a mistake.
KING: How costly was, Phil, if it does not fit, you must not acquit?
VANNATTER: Well, I think -- I think it was very costly. I think that really influenced that jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COCHRAN: O.J. Simpson, in a knit cap, from 2 blocks away is still O.J. Simpson, it's no disguise, it's no disguise, it makes no sense, it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VANNATTER: And I think Mr. Goldman is absolutely right. Lance Ito let that happen. And that should have never happened. That was not the plan.
KING: Because?
VANNATTER: Well, you know, how do you try on a dress glove?
KING: Well, Darden permitted it, though, I think.
VANNATTER: Well, Darden -- actually, Darden got scooted out of the thing. Our intention was to have him try on the new set of gloves that I had found, and Ito tells Darden, well, let's have him try on those gloves. But they have him put on plastic gloves or rubber gloves. How do you fit on a dress glove -- a dress glove -- over plastic or rubber gloves? You can't do it.
LANGE: Soaked in blood. Stiff
VANNATTER: Yes. And...
LANGE: Look, you go into chambers, and you do that.
F. GOLDMAN: And during the civil trial, we looked at the tape of the killer putting on the glove without sound, and it was interesting, because, in the trial, he was saying, "Oh, this is hard to get on," all these comments. You eliminate the sound, and what you saw was a guy faking trying to put the glove on, and it was so evident that he was faking it. It was unbelievable.
K. GOLDMAN: Well, Barry Scheck was also in the corner going, "See." Remember, Phil, that Scheck would sit and make comments?
VANNATTER: You know, you asked Tom what he thought of the prosecution, and I've just got one thing that I want to say on that. In my entire career, I never seen a prosecutor on the defense. The prosecutor is somebody that goes out front and let's tell them what we have and let's give them the whole picture.
KING: What do you mean by a prosecutor on the defense?
VANNATTER: Well...
KING: You mean she was on the defensive?
VANNATTER: She was worried about what Johnnie Cochran was going to do every day. The hell with Johnnie Cochran. Let's let the jury see the evidence we have and forget what Johnnie Cochran's going to do.
LANGE: Yes, don't play a defensive play and...
VANNATTER: She was on the defense every day. Every day, they'd get together, "I wonder what Cochran's going to do today."
(CROSSTALK)
KING: What was it like? You believe he killed your sister.
BROWN: I do.
KING: You believe he killed your son?
F. GOLDMAN: Without a question.
KING: To sit in the same room with him at a deposition.
BROWN: I wasn't at the deposition.
F. GOLDMAN: I was, and it was disgusting. He was the most arrogant...
KING: Did he look at you?
F. GOLDMAN: Yes, and always with a snotty little glare. He was an arrogant -- I can't use the words on TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On what piece of glass striked it? Did you cut it on one of the broken pieces of glass?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On what piece?
O.J. SIMPSON: Can we take a break?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Sure.
O.J. SIMPSON: Jesus Christ.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: He was so incredibly arrogant. There was a moment -- there was a day in which he was being asked questions, and he was...
KING: By your side or...
F. GOLDMAN: By our side. And he was doing the following, "Hmm- hmm, mm-mm, mm-mm," or he'd lean way back in his chair with his eyes closed, and that's how he was -- that's how serious he took this whole thing. He couldn't have cared less. He was at complete peace.
KING: What about the trial itself?
F. GOLDMAN: Totally different in the civil trial.
K. GOLDMAN: In the civil trial?
F. GOLDMAN: Totally different.
K. GOLDMAN: Well, in the -- you know, I studied him for the nine months of the criminal case, and I remember, you know, every day when he would walk in. The only piece of power that I had, that I felt I had over him was to watch him and stare him down every time that he would walk in, and he started to avert his eyes from me. The last day of the trial when he was acquitted, he and Cochran leaned over and went -- you know, this is what they did.
And in the civil trial when we were doing depositions, they wouldn't let me in the room, and I would stand outside the door, and I would listen in at the door and I would wait every single day when he would come out. He one day looked me up and down, licking his chops at me, and all that I could muster up was, "Don't look at me like that."
Civil case, same thing. He'd walk in, and he would just look at me, and we started like staring each other down, and then one day, he blurted out something at me, and then my father started yelling at him, and he said, "Your daughter's staring at me," I mean, like -- but, you know, for me, it was all I had because that...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ... lawyer on the civil side was very rough on him on cross, right?
F. GOLDMAN: Had him crawling. Caught him in lies one right after the other. But you know what? It was such an enormous difference. We talked about cameras in courtroom. Honestly, I wish the country could have seen the civil trial.
K. GOLDMAN: Oh, me too.
F. GOLDMAN: Night and day.
LANGE: Well, that's how a trial is supposed to be run.
F. GOLDMAN: Night and day.
LANGE: The man is in charge. The guy with the robe is in charge there. He makes the decision, not the attorneys running around on the...
F. GOLDMAN: There was no games going on, and if they attempted it...
KING: Did you attend the civil?
BROWN: Yes, I did. Yes. Not as much, though, because I was traveling around the country speaking, and I realized that, you know, there was nothing that I could do. I... KING: Have you ever had a word with O.J. since that -- all of this happened?
BROWN: No, no.
KING: Any word of -- any word at all?
BROWN: Nothing. I even went to Miami, and I picked up the children, and I was at the house, and he just kind of peeked out the window. I saw him peeking out, and it was like he wasn't -- he wasn't coming out. I've never...
KING: We'll back with our remaining moments on this 10th anniversary of a tragedy. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: Today 2 and a half year, a little of 2 and a half years and we finally have justice for Ron and Nicole. And it was done with honesty and dignity, complete truth and our family is grateful for a verdict of responsibility which is all we ever wanted. And we have it. Thank God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATO KAELLIN, ACTOR: I think it was mixed feelings. It was -- it was an unsure feeling. I kept thinking that, could he possibly his wife of 2 kids? And it was kind of weighing in my mind. And then I was thinking of all those nights of first, of coming to my room twice asking for money, and me, inviting myself to McDonalds. It just -- it wasn't so much saying, innocent or guilty, it was just a very unsettling feeling. And now everything, just for myself, my opinion, added up of feeling he was guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Phil Vannatter, did any good come out of this?
VANNATTER: You know, I think so. I think it made people aware of domestic violence all over the country. I think it made people aware of law enforcement and the job that we were faced with every day. Yes, I think some good came out of it.
The sad thing is he's still walking the streets. That's the bad thing that came out of it, other than the death of these two people that should have never happened.
KING: Walking, though, Kim, with a sullied reputation.
K. GOLDMAN: Yes. I hope so. I mean, I've said it often, that I hope that people, you know, still spit at him and, you know, banish him from playing golf or restaurants. I mean, I hope that that's the life he's living, but, you know, with $25,000 a month, you know, salary and...
KING: He get's that and you can't touch that, right?
F. GOLDMAN: Well, that's -- I think people always talk about that as the interest he receives from his pension, and...
KING: From football, right?
F. GOLDMAN: ...it could be -- yes. It could be substantially more than that. You know, if he's making 10 percent on his money, 5 percent on his money, he's got $400,000, $200,000 a year.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ...possible TV show, a reality show?
BROWN: Shame on anybody that puts that on the air.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Yes.
F. GOLDMAN: Wouldn't that be sad? Wouldn't that be sad?
BROWN: You know what? What kind of message is that telling the public? It's OK to kill somebody, two people?
F. GOLDMAN: Exactly.
BROWN: It's OK to murder them, and then you can go and you can become...
(CROSSTALK)
K. GOLDMAN: ... interesting. Denise is working on a show, "The Predator." I'm developing a show called "The Advocate." If we can't get our shows on the air and he gets his on the air, there's going to be some hell to pay, and I don't mean that from Denise and I, but I mean it in the sense that's the society is willing to accept in this country as right and wrong, and what we're sending that kind of message, what -- I mean, that would be -- I don't really care about us, but the fact that he gets his on...
BROWN: That would be a total injustice. We're trying to help -- the show that I'm doing, "Predators," is a solution-based show for victims of cyberstalking, stranger stalking, domestic stalking, identify theft, whatever a daily person could possibly go through. It's solution based. It will help people to go through that.
KING: Tom, you're a private investigator now?
LANGE: I am. I work for a local insurance company as an investigator, and I also do consulting.
KING: Fred, what are you doing?
F. GOLDMAN: I'm working.
KING: Doing?
F. GOLDMAN: I'd rather not say, but the reality is -- I work...
KING: If someone says they'd rather not said, they...
(CROSSTALK)
F. GOLDMAN: No, it's not anything negative. I work in a retail environment, but I still am involved in victims' rights.
You know, we live in a crazy society who potentially will give a voice to murderers or convicted murderers or obvious murderers. We give a voice to them. We don't assist victims in this country.
It took more than eight years to finally get legislation passed in Washington to give victims rights in courtrooms -- over eight years -- and we still didn't get an amendment passed. We've got some very strange priorities in this country, and it's -- they're misplaced.
KING: Denise, you thought it was him right away, right?
BROWN: Right away.
KING: When did you think it was O.J.?
F. GOLDMAN: Absolutely for sure at the time the DNA evidence started hitting. We were -- we talked as a family and were willing to keep an open mind.
KING: Gave him the benefit.
F. GOLDMAN: Gave him the benefit. But the more evidence that came in, the more it became more and more obvious, and, once that DNA evidence hit, it was slam dunk for us.
KING: Did you know it right away, Tom?
LANGE: No, I didn't. I let things ride for a while and let him come. He's not going anywhere. We didn't think he was going anywhere. Once the PCR testing began to come back, things began to add up, and what I said earlier, the complete lack of exculpatory evidence. Everything was going in one direction.
KING: Phil?
VANNATTER: I thought he was the killer that morning with a blood trail right through the front door of his house. How unusual is it to have a blood trail leading away from two people that's been murdered and then find the blood in someone's car, and then find the blood trail that leads right into the front of the house?
KING: Why does it seemingly not go away, do you think?
K. GOLDMAN: I said it earlier, I think he's a narcissist, and I think he creates some of this. But you know, I think that as the country, I think we're shocked that a double murderer is walking free...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ...of Scott Peterson, it's the forerunner of all murder trials.
LANGE: He was found not guilty.
K. GOLDMAN: And I think the people...
LANGE: People are outraged. And he's guilty. You tell me black is white and two and two is five.
K. GOLDMAN: And so the message that are in, you know, the law shows that are on television, it's always being referred to in different, you know, cases that are not public -- Jay Leno still makes comments, Letterman still makes comments. And so I think that from a family's point of view, it's very upsetting, because it never goes away when those comments enter your living room every night, but then there is a subtle message that's sent, that says we won't forget. We still think he's a murderer, and we're not going to let the country forget about it.
VANNATTER: I think it was a matter of people looking and saying, gee, this is the largest miscarriage of justice I've ever seen in my life.
F. GOLDMAN: Yeah, I think it was Dominick Dunne, who referred to the nation as the 13th juror. And the vast majority of people that watched that came away with one decision and one decision only, and that was he was guilty.
KING: Did you watch any of his appearances? Would you watch him?
BROWN: Oh, I haven't watched him, but I did get transcripts from them...
KING: Yeah, but you wouldn't watch?
BROWN: No. I'm not going to -- no. It's about ratings for a lot of these networks, and I'm not willing to give them ratings, I'm not willing to give them a dime.
KING: Thank you all very much for reliving tough memories.
Denise Brown, Fred Goldman, Kim Goldman, Tom Lang, Phil Vannatter. I'll be back in a minute to tell you about the weekend. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Stay tuned for more news around the clock on your most trusted name in news, CNN. Good night. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 19, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury, in the above entitled action, find the defendent Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder...
LARRY KING, HOST: It was the trial of the century. And now exclusive, 10 years after the shocking murders that started it all, family members of both victims, Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, tell us how they feel.
With us tonight is Denise Brown, sister of Nicole Brown Simpson, Fred Goldman, the father of the late Ron Goldman and Ron's sister, Kim. Plus, former LAPD detectives, Tom Lange and Phil Vannatter, lead investigators in the murders. They're all next, exclusive, on LARRY KING LIVE.
(on camera): On June 12, 1994, tomorrow, O.J. Simpson's ex-wife Nicole Brown and her friend, Ron Goldman, were brutally murdered outside her condo in Brentwood, California. On October 3, 1995, O.J. Simpson was acquitted of the double murder by a jury deliberating less than four hours following the televised "trial of the century" that lasted nine months. He was later found liable for the murders in a 1997 civil suit and ordered to pay more than $33 million in damages to the families of Nicole and Ron.
Denise Brown is now chairperson of the Nicole Brown Charitable Foundation, anti-domestic violence advocate and working on a TV pilot called "Predators." Fred Goldman -- he and his wife moved to Arizona after the '97 trial. He became, by the way, a grandfather last year. How did he become a grandfather? Because of Kim Goldman. Kim married Mike Hahn (ph), she has a little boy -- she has a little boy named Samuel Ronald -- we know who Ronald's named after -- is state director for Best Buddies California, a non-profit organization dedicated to enhancing the lives of people with intellectual disabilities.
Tom Lange retired from the LA Police Department in '96. He's now a licensed private investigator. And Phil Vannatter is retired from the LA Police Department in '96 and now chief deputy for Dearborn County, Indiana.
Denise, do you think of your sister often?
DENISE BROWN, SISTER OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: All the time. There is a day that does not go by that I don't think of Nicole, and especially now, with everybody turning this into -- you know, I guess the media does five-year, ten-year, and these are, like, the big anniversaries for the media. And it just takes you back to that day of hearing my mother scream and me running into the room. And it was Tom Lange who was on the other end of the telephone when I grabbed the phone from my mother.
KING: Are you angry that O.J. has done appearances, by the way?
BROWN: I don't know -- I don't understand why people are giving him air time. Shame on Greta. Shame on Katie. Shame on Catherine Crier. I mean, why are these people doing that? Why are they giving him any air time at all? What does he -- what is he giving to society?
KING: We'll get back to that. Fred, do you think about Ron a lot?
FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RON GOLDMAN: Every single day.
KING: Really? You never...
F. GOLDMAN: Not a day that goes by that something doesn't bring Ron's memory to my -- to the forefront. Always back there.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Does an anniversary bring it more to the forefront?
F. GOLDMAN: Honestly, no. For me, it's the same every day. Whether it be ten years, nine years and 12 days or whatever it might be, it's always the same. The only thing different about tomorrow will be that the media's made a big splash about it.
KING: Do you feel the same as Denise about his appearances?
F. GOLDMAN: Absolutely. I don't know what he offers to anyone. He's a liar. He's a wife-beater. And worst of all, he's a murderer. And why we, as a society, are willing to give a voice to a murderer -- even though he's not convicted, he was found responsible, and the vast majority of the world knows he's guilty.
KING: Did you ever collect anything on the...
F. GOLDMAN: Not a penny.
KING: No? Kim, we all remember how close you were to your brother. You had a job in San Francisco. You gave it up. You came down, you attended the trial. Now you're married. You have a little boy.
K. GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: Yes.
KING: You named his Samuel Ronald, right?
K. GOLDMAN: I did. Yes, Samuel Ronald.
KING: Do you think about your brother often? K. GOLDMAN: Yes. It's -- it seems a little cliched to say yes, every, you know, second of every day, but there is not a day that doesn't go by that I don't think about my brother, I mean, especially looking in the eyes of my son and definitely looking to see if there's any resemblance to my brother.
KING: Noticed any yet?
K. GOLDMAN: I think I created it.
(LAUGHTER)
K. GOLDMAN: I don't know for sure. But I definitely am looking for it. I'm definitely looking into Sammy's eyes to make sure that I can bring my brother to life in some way. So yes, I make a conscious effort.
KING: Tom, you were one of the lead investigators in this murder. You think back about it?
TOM LANGE, INVESTIGATED MURDERS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND RON GOLDMAN: Sure, think about it all the time. What I think probably more about is the evidence and what happened to the evidence during the trial. I think about the lack of exculpatory evidence. I mean, there's no questions in this case. There's never been any mysteries in this case. There's nothing unanswered.
KING: Did you ever have a doubt in this case that you had the wrong man?
LANGE: No. And along those lines, we looked at 50 additional suspects and eliminated them. In a murder investigation, the very first thing any investigator's going to look for is something exculpatory. Once you discover that, it can only strengthen your investigation. This case is very rare that it had none, just absolutely nothing exculpatory in this case.
KING: In other words, you...
LANGE: Everything points in one direction.
KING: You don't want to see people have evidence against them. You want -- you want it so you can clear them, right?
LANGE: Well, yes.
KING: Yes.
LANGE: You run them through the mill, so to speak...
KING: Yes.
LANGE: ... and you do -- you do attempt to clear those people. But everything in this case only goes in one direction.
KING: And Phil, do you think about it? PHIL VANNATTER, INVESTIGATED MURDERS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND RON GOLDMAN: You know, I do, but I don't think I think about it every day anymore. The thing I really think about was the -- the disparaging allegations made against some very fine people who did a very good job at bringing a guy to the bar of justice for murder.
And I look at this time as an anniversary of these two people, two precious people that lost their lives. And the heck with this fellow that -- that was not found guilty that should have been found guilty.
I don't think of it every day, but I do occasionally. It'll go through me because now I'm back into law enforcement, and I -- and I -- and you know, you can always think, Could I have done something different? And I'm -- and I'm instructing people now that work for me, you know, Let's -- let's really look at this and let's do things, because of what happened to me. And...
KING: Was it a slam dunk?
VANNATTER: Oh, it -- Larry, I worked homicide for over 20 years, and I never had a case that I had a preponderance of evidence like this in. This is the most evidence I have ever seen in a murder case.
KING: All right. Let's discuss some of the things said in interviews about some of you. About Denise O.J. said recently, "I am sure the income is down on the foundation that she works for, which I would imagine makes her income go down. I don't think anyone's bills have been paid more than Denise's from what came from this trial."
The contention is you have profited from this death.
BROWN: Oh, and I know, and we did an interview on this once. And I have made $17,000 from this -- from the Nicole Brown Charitable Foundation. And when people started accusing me of stealing money and doing all of that, the attorney general stepped in. We got a clean bill of health from the attorney general's office. Everything was OK.
But what I did is, I went to the board of directors and I told them, Either we're changing our focus because nobody seems to be happy about how much money we're giving anybody -- and so we did. We changed our focus. And what we're doing now is focusing on transitional housing.
And I did have a book deal. Yes, I had a million-dollar book deal, and that million-dollar book deal was with Judith Regan, and she didn't like the story that she got. She wanted to have the tabloid. She wanted to have the cocaine, the drugs, the dancing, all that stuff. And I said, well, wait a minute. I said, Judith, I said, this is not my sister. This is not my sister's life.
KING: She wanted...
BROWN: She hated that life...
KING: ...bad things about your sister? BROWN: Oh, she wanted the tabloid. "The National Enquirer" had done a story, and that's what she wanted. And I said, you know what? Nobody can pay me enough money to write a story like that about my sister.
KING: Why does O.J. pick on you, do you think?
BROWN: Oh, maybe because he doesn't like me.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: You were so vehement...
BROWN: And I don't like him.
KING: You were so vehement about him, right?
BROWN: Well, because I know he murdered Nicole. I mean, when -- when I -- when Tom Lange, I was on the other phone, end of the phone, and he goes -- I said, Who is this? Who is this? He goes, It's Detective Tom Lange. And I said, Oh, my God! He finally did it. And -- Tom says, he goes, Who? And I go, O.J. Simpson, he finally killed my sister. He did it.
KING: We'll get a break and we'll come right back. Tomorrow's the 10th anniversary. Time flies. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, police radio is saying that Simpson has a gun at his head. Police radio is saying that Simpson, the passenger in the car, has a gun at his head. Which has explained why they haven't been stopping and why they haven't moved up along side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, no.
KING: The voice saying oh, no is John Mack, president of the LA Urban league. If you've just joined us, this is LARRY KING LIVE in Washington. We're viewing a car, apparently being driven by Al Cowlings, one of O.J.'s oldest friends and a former teammate at Southern Cal. And the police radio is reporting that O.J. is the passenger in the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. About Fred Goldman, O.J. has said that you took advantage of this, and people like you and Marcia Clark got such an opportunity from this. People signed them to contracts -- accusing you of profiting off of your son's death.
F. GOLDMAN: The man is a damn liar, OK? We haven't signed contract one and haven't profited in any way or benefited in any way. To even suggest that gives you an indication of what kind of a sick SOB this guy is. KING: Why did you...
F. GOLDMAN: How dare he suggest that any of us profited in any way? We have all lost the most precious thing on the face of the earth, and this guy thinks in terms of how people profit. The only one that gained from this was him. He retains his life, his freedom and his chance to continue day after day. He's the one that profited.
KING: Why did you collect no money?
F. GOLDMAN: Well, first of all, he makes a point of telling the world on a regular basis that he will never pay a dime of that judgment, that he'll do whatever he has to do not to pay a dime. So that's No. 1. No. 2, he has moved to Florida to make sure that he protects whatever he has additionally. He protects some income that he makes, and he protects his home. So he's never going to pay a dime...
KING: Florida is, like, a debtors' state, right?
F. GOLDMAN: Right. He's going to make certain, no matter what he does, that he never honors the judgment, that which the vast majority of people in this country would have to do if they had a judgment against them.
KING: Kim, what do you make of him?
K. GOLDMAN: You know what? I -- it's difficult because I try not to give him any more attention and focus than he already does. I mean, every day that I wake up and my brother's not here, I only have one person to blame. So when people ask me what do I think about him, it's -- it's -- it's like I don't think about him. But when I am faced with these kind of things, it's, like, you know, saying that he's a murderer doesn't seem to just...
KING: I know.
K. GOLDMAN: ... encapsulate it. You know, saying he's an SOB just isn't enough. And so you know, when I listen to him make these comments, it's not surprising to me. I mean, what do you expect from someone that does this, you know? I -- it doesn't surprise me that here he is shotting his mouth off, and you know, a couple months go by, and he does something stupid to get his name in the paper.
He's a narcissist. He misses the attention. He does whatever he can to make sure that someone's paying attention to him. And then he gives, you know, the big finger to the rest of us. You know, what kind of a remorseful, innocent person is this? I mean, it's -- it's absurd to me. I don't...
KING: Were you at his arrest, Tom?
LANGE: The -- when he turned himself in...
KING: Yes. LANGE: ... the first time? No, actually, I was back at the Bundy location, and Phil was there at Rockingham when he came in from the airport, if that's what you're talking about.
KING: You were there, Phil?
VANNATTER: Well, I was there when he came to the house...
KING: Yes.
VANNATTER: ... the day that I was doing the search warrant. Yes, I was there. I was the one that went out and took the handcuffs off from him and -- and you know, at that point, there was no doubt in my mind that I was dealing with the right person.
KING: Why?
VANNATTER: Well, I...
KING: It was so early.
VANNATTER: Yes, but I had overwhelming evidence already. I had a blood trail that led right from the -- from the scene, carried by his vehicle right to his house and then started at the back of his vehicle and went right up the driveway, right through the front door of his home. And plus, we had the glove at the side of the house and -- and just mysteriously, he had the injury on his hand that just matched up perfect with everything. And at that point, I was sure that I was dealing with the right person.
KING: Denise, do you ever think of why did he do it? In other words, does that ever ponder your mind? There are a lot of husbands are bad to their wives and cheat on their wives, and a lot of husbands who hit their wives, but a very small percentage of them kill their wives.
BROWN: Well, it's about power and control. He could not control Nicole any longer. Nicole left him. Even the stalking -- even the night that we were at Mezzaluna, he drove by. Nicole said, Look, there he goes. You know, the stalking just was overwhelming for her. She couldn't deal with it. She didn't -- she was afraid. And it just got to the point where he knew that she was gone, she was leaving, and that he didn't -- he had lost control because he did not go to Mezzaluna.
F. GOLDMAN: You know, additionally, you know, I think -- every time I heard him during -- during deposition, he always referred to...
KING: You attended the civil deposition. Yes.
F. GOLDMAN: Yes. He always referred to Nicole in terms of property.
BROWN: Oh, absolutely.
F. GOLDMAN: She was his to do with as he wanted. He referred to his house, his bedroom, his door to the bedroom. Everything was his. And my sense is, this is a man -- man, if you can call him that -- this is a guy who beat up Nicole. During the civil trial, we learned about how violent he had been while he was a sportscaster.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You split her lip, didn't you?
O.J. SIMPSON, FRM. FOOTBALL STAR: That is incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You hit her with your fist and you caused her lip to split open, is that right?
O.J. SIMPSON: That is incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you caused scars on her fact, didn't you?
O.J. SIMPSON: That's incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black and blue marks on her face.
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes, that's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was a result of your hands touching her, violently, correct?
O.J. SIMPSON: Touching her, violently?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, hitting her.
O.J. SIMPSON: That's incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, how's that incorrect?
O.J. SIMPSON: I didn't hit her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do to her?
O.J. SIMPSON: I wrestled her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: He had property that -- he didn't like the way she behaved, and it was his to do with as he wanted.
Remember, you know, I -- we can't forget, he went there with black clothes on, a mask, gloves...
KING: You think he went there to kill her.
F. GOLDMAN: Oh, absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
VANNATTER: Isn't that typical of a wife abuser? I mean, he set the perfect form of a wife abuser, and at that point the wife is not a soulmate or anything, they're a piece of property. And that's exactly how he felt about it.
KING: You think he rationalizes that he's entitled to do what...
VANNATTER: Yes, I don't think he thinks he did anything wrong. I think he thinks what he did was OK.
LANGE: Ten years later here he is still today making comments about Nicole, blaming Nicole for not being around to take care of his children. Ten years later it's all her fault.
KING: Why do you think Ron died?
F. GOLDMAN: I think Ron died because one, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was willing to do something for somebody else. I am convinced to this day that the person that ultimately -- I don't remember the witnesses -- when he heard hey, hey, hey, I believe that was Ron who came upon...
LANGE: Absolutely.
F. GOLDMAN: ...I don't ever use his name -- him, the killer -- hitting Nicole, knocking her out and then Ron fought, and ultimately he went back and...
KING: In other words, he could have run away?
BROWN: He could have.
F. GOLDMAN: I think he could have but he didn't.
VANNATTER: I think Fred is absolutely right. Ron...
KING: Was a hero?
VANNATTER: Yes, he walked on to something that he didn't realize. He was trying to do a favor and he tried to stop it and...
K. GOLDMAN: He was a decent, decent human being.
(CROSSTALK)
K. GOLDMAN: Who wanted to protect a woman that he liked, and he was not going to allow anybody, anybody to do anything bad to her.
KING: Let me get a break and we'll be right back with Denise Brown, Fred Goldman, Kim Goldman, Tom Lange, and Phil Vannatter, together again. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: I never punched anyone, other than when I was a teenager, in their face. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never struck anyone in their fact, correct? O.J. SIMPSON: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you never hurt your wife, either, correct?
O.J. SIMPSON: No, I hurt my wife, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never struck her with your hands, correct?
O.J. SIMPSON: I never punched her, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ever strike her?
O.J. SIMPSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ever hurt her?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever physically hurt her?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever bruise her?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with our panel. In an interview with Katie Couric O.J. says that the subject of Nicole's murder has never, ever come up between him and his children. That he's paid some of the best child psychiatrists in the country who say when the kids are ready to talk about it, they'll talk about it.
BROWN: You know what's interesting to me about that? I heard that quote, and then he is quoted in Greta's interview as saying that we toasted her on -- you know...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I mean, come on.
KING: ... her birthday, not the anniversary of her death.
K. GOLDMAN: And I think -- I don't know, Denise, obviously you can speak better, but I think it's unhealthy to not talk about Nicole in that household. I mean, how...
BROWN: We talk about Nicole.
K. GOLDMAN: You do, but...
KING: When do you see the kids?
BROWN: Well, according to him, never. We see them summertime and we see them Christmastime. But what we...
KING: They come to you, they stay with their parents?
BROWN: With their grandparents?
KING: With their grandparents.
BROWN: Yes, with their grandparents. And since I lived there, I do see them. Whenever they're there.
KING: How are they?
BROWN: They're great, yes, thanks.
KING: How old are they now?
BROWN: Sydney's 18. She graduated high school, and Justin's 15. They're doing great. And you know, it is a topic that does not come up, because I...
KING: You don't bring it up?
BROWN: We don't bring it up, only because these children have been hurt so much already that why hurt them again. Why hurt them more? If they were to ask me the question, though, and I did tell Sydney, I said, "Sydney, your father and I, we do not like each other, but I love you, and if you ever want to talk, if you ever want to know anything, I will always be there for you and I will always tell them the truth.
KING: And she doesn't want to talk?
BROWN: She doesn't want to talk, yes.
LANGE: Wasn't there a time that -- that she called 911 over him?
BROWN: Yes, she called 911 and the circumstances...
LANGE: In Florida?
BROWN: In Florida -- and you know, ever since the Orange County courts have given him these children, I have worried every day about them, because there was a time when Simpson said, "You are just like your mother." And I thought, oh my God.
F. GOLDMAN: What a scary thought, right?
BROWN: He killed her mother, and he is referring to Sydney as Nicole. It was like "Oh my God."
F. GOLDMAN: What worries me about those two kids is that they're living in a house with a murderer. OK. They are living in a house with a man -- here, I use the term again, "man," with a monster who believes women are property, who obviously treats women like dirt, and unfortunately I don't know how some of that ultimately doesn't rub off on those two kids, and what it's going to ultimately do to their life in the future.
KING: And Denise, you said they seemed fine?
BROWN: They do seem fine. But there is also a cycle of domestic violence. Little girls who live in a household of violence, they remember that and they become victims themselves. Little boys will become batterers themselves or totally turn the other way. I mean, I have seen far and few between that have turned the other way and broken that cycle of domestic violence, but as far as Sydney did see a lot, I believe.
KING: Is there a pattern, Tom, to domestic killings?
LANGE: Sure. Yeah. And you can see if you look at this guy's background, and unfortunately we didn't see a lot of this in the trial, his pattern not only goes to domestic violence, it goes to stalking. We had a situation just six months before when Nicole was living on Gretna (ph) Green, when he was stalking her at home in the middle of the night.
KING: You mean like walking around the house?
LANGE: Well, not only walking around, but looking in the windows. We found a witness that we never saw in trial for other reasons that saw him with this stocking mask, the same one that was found at the crime scene, six months before. Stalking her at the home before.
BROWN: Well, you know, also the whole thing about the Mafia and the drug deals and all that, no, that was a story I heard a month before on Mother's Day. He was sitting there telling us on how he was driving down the freeway and he had these three cars following him and it was a whole thing of, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, he premeditated this murder. Not that he just did not do it, he premeditated it.
LANGE: One thing of interest that hasn't come out that also should have during the trial is another bit of evidence that wasn't introduced, and that was the fact that Nicole had reported her house keys stolen some ten days before this ever happened. She told them (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: Right, right.
LANGE: This is just 10 days before she said, "I think OJ has the keys." Well after the chase, guess what we find in his pocket? The keys.
KING: How did the state lose this case?
VANNATTER: Boy, that is a loaded question.
BROWN: Where do we begin?
VANNATTER: That is a loaded question.
(CROSSTALK) VANNATTER: How did they lose it? Well, you know what? I think I truly believe they put on enough evidence to win this case beyond a reasonable doubt. I think -- I think the problem of this whole thing was the political atmosphere of Los Angeles, the feelings by some people about the Los Angeles Police Department, and so on and so forth.
But you know what? They could have done a better job. There is so much evidence they didn't put on, so many witnesses they didn't put on and that should be a matter for a jury to hear those people and make their determinations.
LANGE: You can never have too much evidence in a murder case. To this day people say, "Well, where's the clothing, where's the weapon, where's the shoes?" We actually found a witness while under trial that will tell you he saw Simpson the night of the murders with his arm buried in a trash container at LAX. Then his arm went to an open half-moon shaped flight bag, he zipped it closed, picked it up and walked inside. This is the little bag we've all been looking for.
F. GOLDMAN: But you know, when it all comes down to this. There was more than enough evidence to convict him. But I've always taken the position that if you have to blame anyone in particular, aside from the jury, who obviously, couldn't have cared less, with less than four hours of deliberation. If you had to blame anybody, for me, it's Judge Ito, who turned that courtroom into a daily circus.
KING: Let me pick that up in a minute. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE LANCE ITO, PRESIDED OF SIMPSON CASE: For the sake of the argument that what you say is correct, that this misrepresentation has been made to the court, what action, or sanction do you seek as a result?
MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTED O.J. SIMPSON CASE: I think that the witness should be precluded from testifying. I think that Mr. Bailey should be cited for contempt and fined substantially. As an officer of the court, he has lied to this court. He's impeached by his own witness.
F. LEE BAILEY, O.J. SIMPSON DEFENSE TEAM: I ask that you put a stop to it. Either put Cordoba (ph) on the stand...
CLARK: Excuse me, Mr. Bailey. Stand up and speak when it's your turn.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you do after dinner with Goldman?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got up and -- we got up and we walked out. And Nicole was going to go get some ice cream with the kids. And we kissed eachother good-bye. The last thing I told her, is that I loved her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Our guests are Denise Brown, the sister of the late Nicole Brown Simpson and the chairperson of the Nicole Brown Charitable Foundation. Fred Goldman, father of the late Ron Goldman. Kim Goldman, who is Kim Goldman Hahn, the sister of the late Ron Goldman. Tom Lange, the retired LAPD detective, one of the lead investigators in the case. And Phil Vannatter, also a retired detective, one of the lead investigators. He and Tom, by the way, co-authored a book, "Evidence Dismissed: The Inside Story of the Police Investigation of OJ Simpson."
You were saying about Judge Ito? You blame him the most. Why?
F. GOLDMAN: I blame him the most because he allowed the courtroom to be turned into a circus. He allowed total control to be abdicated to Cochran. He allowed things to be revisited on a daily basis. He allowed everything.
By contrast in the civil trial, as an example, things like racism, planting of evidence, conspiracy, all of that didn't come in, because the judge simply said to his lawyers, "Give me some piece of evidence that would suggest that there is any reason to go there." The answer was there wasn't any reason, but Ito let it all in. He opened the floodgates and once it started it never stopped.
VANNATTER: I think -- I think what he let happen was he let this trial become entertainment, instead of a trial for justice. He let it become entertainment..
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The statement is racist and he is the racist, not me.
JOHNNIE COCHRAN, O.J. SIMPSON DEFENSE TEAM: I didn't say...
UNIDENIFIED MALE: Well, well -- I mean, but that is what you're suggesting and that's what, you know, has created a lot problems for my family and myself. Statements that you make about me and race, Mr. Cochran...
COCHRAN: Well, you stop...
(CROSSTALK)
ITO: Wait, wait. I'm about to hold both of you in contempt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VANNATTER: Instead of a trial for justice, he let it become entertainment for the entire country. And that is the worst mistake...
KING: You think he liked the television attention? LANGE: Oh, I think he loved the attention.
K. GOLDMAN: I think he had the late lunches because celebrities were coming into his chambers. And we would be siting in the galley waiting, and then out would walk some famous person and then Ito would come out and, "See you later! Thanks for stopping by."
LANGE: Why live TV coverage? Why would you need live TV coverage, when you know anybody would know that's going to affect any testimony coming from the witness stand.
K. GOLDMAN: But I also don't feel that there is any piece of evidence that didn't come in that would have been the one -- the smoking gun.
KING: You think nothing would have won that case?
K. GOLDMAN: I don't think that anything could. I think at this point, it's easy for us to sit in hindsight and look back and think that, oh, well if we would have put the Bronco chase in, that would have been the clincher. When it's obvious, it's obvious, you know, you ask the jury, they stopped listening. They told you they were ready to go, they had their bags packed, before they even got the case. What evidence...
LANGE: Well when did they start listening?
K. GOLDMAN: Well, that's the point, but I don't know that there's anything that could have -- a videotape, I don't know that anything would have made a difference. And that's really sad.
F. GOLDMAN: The little things that took place in court every day. Every time Cochran got out of his chair and straightened his jacket and strutted across the courtroom and, "Good afternoon, your honor." And the judge would say, "How are you, Mr. Cochran?" But there was almost that playfulness going on on a daily basis that at the time I dismissed and thought, "Never going to matter."
KING: Do you resent the defense, Denise?
BROWN: Well, I think that, yeah, I do. I think Johnny Cochran did a huge injustice for our country. Yes, I think he set us back about 100 years and racism...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Racism should not have been a part of this. They were married, they were together, ever since Nicole was 18 years old. They had two children, why did race play a part in this case at all?
KING: You don't say that he didn't have a right to a defense?
BROWN: Oh, he -- absolutely, everybody has a right to a defense.
KING: You thought that defense was...
BROWN: But I think Johnny Cochran did a huge disservice for our country.
LANGE: Well, the thing about Johnny, Johnny lied in his opening and he lied in his closing about evidence that he did not have. Maryanne Gershis(ph), the witness who saw everything. We never saw her. It was all nonsense. He lied about Phil. He even lied about Fuhrman planting evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COCHRAN: Why was the glove still moist when Furhman found it, if Mr. Simpson had dropped it 7 hours earlier?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Did Fuhrman hurt your side, though?
LANGE: Yes, of course he did.
VANNATTER: He was the vehicle -- he was the vehicle that allowed Johnny Cochran to refocus this thing from a trial of Simpson for this double murder to a trial of the Los Angeles Police Department.
LANGE: You don't plead the Fifth on the stand. I've never see an LA cop do that.
F. GOLDMAN: And I think they had Fuhrman in a position where they had learned that he used the N-word. So they were going to paint him as a racist. But the worst thing -- the additional thing came when Fuhrman denied it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you, therefore saying, that you have not used that word in the past 10 years, Detective Fuhrman?
MARK FUHRMAN, FRM. LAPD DETECTIVE: Yes, that's what I'm saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: Now he became a lying racist, and it all went downhill from that point.
But like Denise said a minute ago, there was no race involved in this. Cochran created it. There was never an ounce of evidence, other than Fuhrman having use the N-word, that race played any role whatsoever. But it became a major focus. A major focus, and like Denise said, it set race relations back decades.
KING: In other words, why would Fuhrman concoct a plot?
(CROSSTALK)
LANGE: Fuhrman he was used, but unfortunately he fell into it. Everybody in the world knew he was getting set up by Bailey except him.
F. GOLDMAN: If I go back to Ito, he could have stopped a lot of what took place, but he didn't.
KING: We'll take a break and come right back with more. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stabs and he cuts and he slices until that rage is gone, until these people are dead. We've shown you that he would have killed, could have killed and did kill these 2 people.
COCHRAN: With the witnesses that they failed and refused to call, establish a reasonable doubt, it shatters the prosecution case. If you start there, you find these witnesses credible, O.J. Simpson couldn't have committed these crimes. There reasonable doubt, he's not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: That they will find as the record stands now, that I did not, could not and would not have committed this crime. I have 4 kids, 2 kids I haven't seen in a year. They ask me every week, dad, how much longer, until this trial over.
R. GOLDMAN: I will never see my son again. How dare he throw that up for the world to hear and feel sorry for him. He's where he is, because he committed murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: What did you think of the prosecution, Tom, how well they did?
LANGE: Well, as I said earlier, you never have too much evidence in a murder case, and I think they played with the evidence. I think they attempted to anticipate what the defense was going to do. I think that was a big mistake.
I think there was plenty of evidence that the police were involved with putting together -- that they didn't want anything to do with it because they knew this was going to be a case of LAPD on trial. They didn't want to get too close to the police, because we would have to introduce that evidence, introduce the things that we did. They would rather put everything on the blood evidence, and I think that was a mistake.
KING: How costly was, Phil, if it does not fit, you must not acquit?
VANNATTER: Well, I think -- I think it was very costly. I think that really influenced that jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COCHRAN: O.J. Simpson, in a knit cap, from 2 blocks away is still O.J. Simpson, it's no disguise, it's no disguise, it makes no sense, it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VANNATTER: And I think Mr. Goldman is absolutely right. Lance Ito let that happen. And that should have never happened. That was not the plan.
KING: Because?
VANNATTER: Well, you know, how do you try on a dress glove?
KING: Well, Darden permitted it, though, I think.
VANNATTER: Well, Darden -- actually, Darden got scooted out of the thing. Our intention was to have him try on the new set of gloves that I had found, and Ito tells Darden, well, let's have him try on those gloves. But they have him put on plastic gloves or rubber gloves. How do you fit on a dress glove -- a dress glove -- over plastic or rubber gloves? You can't do it.
LANGE: Soaked in blood. Stiff
VANNATTER: Yes. And...
LANGE: Look, you go into chambers, and you do that.
F. GOLDMAN: And during the civil trial, we looked at the tape of the killer putting on the glove without sound, and it was interesting, because, in the trial, he was saying, "Oh, this is hard to get on," all these comments. You eliminate the sound, and what you saw was a guy faking trying to put the glove on, and it was so evident that he was faking it. It was unbelievable.
K. GOLDMAN: Well, Barry Scheck was also in the corner going, "See." Remember, Phil, that Scheck would sit and make comments?
VANNATTER: You know, you asked Tom what he thought of the prosecution, and I've just got one thing that I want to say on that. In my entire career, I never seen a prosecutor on the defense. The prosecutor is somebody that goes out front and let's tell them what we have and let's give them the whole picture.
KING: What do you mean by a prosecutor on the defense?
VANNATTER: Well...
KING: You mean she was on the defensive?
VANNATTER: She was worried about what Johnnie Cochran was going to do every day. The hell with Johnnie Cochran. Let's let the jury see the evidence we have and forget what Johnnie Cochran's going to do.
LANGE: Yes, don't play a defensive play and...
VANNATTER: She was on the defense every day. Every day, they'd get together, "I wonder what Cochran's going to do today."
(CROSSTALK)
KING: What was it like? You believe he killed your sister.
BROWN: I do.
KING: You believe he killed your son?
F. GOLDMAN: Without a question.
KING: To sit in the same room with him at a deposition.
BROWN: I wasn't at the deposition.
F. GOLDMAN: I was, and it was disgusting. He was the most arrogant...
KING: Did he look at you?
F. GOLDMAN: Yes, and always with a snotty little glare. He was an arrogant -- I can't use the words on TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On what piece of glass striked it? Did you cut it on one of the broken pieces of glass?
O.J. SIMPSON: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On what piece?
O.J. SIMPSON: Can we take a break?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Sure.
O.J. SIMPSON: Jesus Christ.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: He was so incredibly arrogant. There was a moment -- there was a day in which he was being asked questions, and he was...
KING: By your side or...
F. GOLDMAN: By our side. And he was doing the following, "Hmm- hmm, mm-mm, mm-mm," or he'd lean way back in his chair with his eyes closed, and that's how he was -- that's how serious he took this whole thing. He couldn't have cared less. He was at complete peace.
KING: What about the trial itself?
F. GOLDMAN: Totally different in the civil trial.
K. GOLDMAN: In the civil trial?
F. GOLDMAN: Totally different.
K. GOLDMAN: Well, in the -- you know, I studied him for the nine months of the criminal case, and I remember, you know, every day when he would walk in. The only piece of power that I had, that I felt I had over him was to watch him and stare him down every time that he would walk in, and he started to avert his eyes from me. The last day of the trial when he was acquitted, he and Cochran leaned over and went -- you know, this is what they did.
And in the civil trial when we were doing depositions, they wouldn't let me in the room, and I would stand outside the door, and I would listen in at the door and I would wait every single day when he would come out. He one day looked me up and down, licking his chops at me, and all that I could muster up was, "Don't look at me like that."
Civil case, same thing. He'd walk in, and he would just look at me, and we started like staring each other down, and then one day, he blurted out something at me, and then my father started yelling at him, and he said, "Your daughter's staring at me," I mean, like -- but, you know, for me, it was all I had because that...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ... lawyer on the civil side was very rough on him on cross, right?
F. GOLDMAN: Had him crawling. Caught him in lies one right after the other. But you know what? It was such an enormous difference. We talked about cameras in courtroom. Honestly, I wish the country could have seen the civil trial.
K. GOLDMAN: Oh, me too.
F. GOLDMAN: Night and day.
LANGE: Well, that's how a trial is supposed to be run.
F. GOLDMAN: Night and day.
LANGE: The man is in charge. The guy with the robe is in charge there. He makes the decision, not the attorneys running around on the...
F. GOLDMAN: There was no games going on, and if they attempted it...
KING: Did you attend the civil?
BROWN: Yes, I did. Yes. Not as much, though, because I was traveling around the country speaking, and I realized that, you know, there was nothing that I could do. I... KING: Have you ever had a word with O.J. since that -- all of this happened?
BROWN: No, no.
KING: Any word of -- any word at all?
BROWN: Nothing. I even went to Miami, and I picked up the children, and I was at the house, and he just kind of peeked out the window. I saw him peeking out, and it was like he wasn't -- he wasn't coming out. I've never...
KING: We'll back with our remaining moments on this 10th anniversary of a tragedy. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
F. GOLDMAN: Today 2 and a half year, a little of 2 and a half years and we finally have justice for Ron and Nicole. And it was done with honesty and dignity, complete truth and our family is grateful for a verdict of responsibility which is all we ever wanted. And we have it. Thank God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATO KAELLIN, ACTOR: I think it was mixed feelings. It was -- it was an unsure feeling. I kept thinking that, could he possibly his wife of 2 kids? And it was kind of weighing in my mind. And then I was thinking of all those nights of first, of coming to my room twice asking for money, and me, inviting myself to McDonalds. It just -- it wasn't so much saying, innocent or guilty, it was just a very unsettling feeling. And now everything, just for myself, my opinion, added up of feeling he was guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Phil Vannatter, did any good come out of this?
VANNATTER: You know, I think so. I think it made people aware of domestic violence all over the country. I think it made people aware of law enforcement and the job that we were faced with every day. Yes, I think some good came out of it.
The sad thing is he's still walking the streets. That's the bad thing that came out of it, other than the death of these two people that should have never happened.
KING: Walking, though, Kim, with a sullied reputation.
K. GOLDMAN: Yes. I hope so. I mean, I've said it often, that I hope that people, you know, still spit at him and, you know, banish him from playing golf or restaurants. I mean, I hope that that's the life he's living, but, you know, with $25,000 a month, you know, salary and...
KING: He get's that and you can't touch that, right?
F. GOLDMAN: Well, that's -- I think people always talk about that as the interest he receives from his pension, and...
KING: From football, right?
F. GOLDMAN: ...it could be -- yes. It could be substantially more than that. You know, if he's making 10 percent on his money, 5 percent on his money, he's got $400,000, $200,000 a year.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ...possible TV show, a reality show?
BROWN: Shame on anybody that puts that on the air.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Yes.
F. GOLDMAN: Wouldn't that be sad? Wouldn't that be sad?
BROWN: You know what? What kind of message is that telling the public? It's OK to kill somebody, two people?
F. GOLDMAN: Exactly.
BROWN: It's OK to murder them, and then you can go and you can become...
(CROSSTALK)
K. GOLDMAN: ... interesting. Denise is working on a show, "The Predator." I'm developing a show called "The Advocate." If we can't get our shows on the air and he gets his on the air, there's going to be some hell to pay, and I don't mean that from Denise and I, but I mean it in the sense that's the society is willing to accept in this country as right and wrong, and what we're sending that kind of message, what -- I mean, that would be -- I don't really care about us, but the fact that he gets his on...
BROWN: That would be a total injustice. We're trying to help -- the show that I'm doing, "Predators," is a solution-based show for victims of cyberstalking, stranger stalking, domestic stalking, identify theft, whatever a daily person could possibly go through. It's solution based. It will help people to go through that.
KING: Tom, you're a private investigator now?
LANGE: I am. I work for a local insurance company as an investigator, and I also do consulting.
KING: Fred, what are you doing?
F. GOLDMAN: I'm working.
KING: Doing?
F. GOLDMAN: I'd rather not say, but the reality is -- I work...
KING: If someone says they'd rather not said, they...
(CROSSTALK)
F. GOLDMAN: No, it's not anything negative. I work in a retail environment, but I still am involved in victims' rights.
You know, we live in a crazy society who potentially will give a voice to murderers or convicted murderers or obvious murderers. We give a voice to them. We don't assist victims in this country.
It took more than eight years to finally get legislation passed in Washington to give victims rights in courtrooms -- over eight years -- and we still didn't get an amendment passed. We've got some very strange priorities in this country, and it's -- they're misplaced.
KING: Denise, you thought it was him right away, right?
BROWN: Right away.
KING: When did you think it was O.J.?
F. GOLDMAN: Absolutely for sure at the time the DNA evidence started hitting. We were -- we talked as a family and were willing to keep an open mind.
KING: Gave him the benefit.
F. GOLDMAN: Gave him the benefit. But the more evidence that came in, the more it became more and more obvious, and, once that DNA evidence hit, it was slam dunk for us.
KING: Did you know it right away, Tom?
LANGE: No, I didn't. I let things ride for a while and let him come. He's not going anywhere. We didn't think he was going anywhere. Once the PCR testing began to come back, things began to add up, and what I said earlier, the complete lack of exculpatory evidence. Everything was going in one direction.
KING: Phil?
VANNATTER: I thought he was the killer that morning with a blood trail right through the front door of his house. How unusual is it to have a blood trail leading away from two people that's been murdered and then find the blood in someone's car, and then find the blood trail that leads right into the front of the house?
KING: Why does it seemingly not go away, do you think?
K. GOLDMAN: I said it earlier, I think he's a narcissist, and I think he creates some of this. But you know, I think that as the country, I think we're shocked that a double murderer is walking free...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ...of Scott Peterson, it's the forerunner of all murder trials.
LANGE: He was found not guilty.
K. GOLDMAN: And I think the people...
LANGE: People are outraged. And he's guilty. You tell me black is white and two and two is five.
K. GOLDMAN: And so the message that are in, you know, the law shows that are on television, it's always being referred to in different, you know, cases that are not public -- Jay Leno still makes comments, Letterman still makes comments. And so I think that from a family's point of view, it's very upsetting, because it never goes away when those comments enter your living room every night, but then there is a subtle message that's sent, that says we won't forget. We still think he's a murderer, and we're not going to let the country forget about it.
VANNATTER: I think it was a matter of people looking and saying, gee, this is the largest miscarriage of justice I've ever seen in my life.
F. GOLDMAN: Yeah, I think it was Dominick Dunne, who referred to the nation as the 13th juror. And the vast majority of people that watched that came away with one decision and one decision only, and that was he was guilty.
KING: Did you watch any of his appearances? Would you watch him?
BROWN: Oh, I haven't watched him, but I did get transcripts from them...
KING: Yeah, but you wouldn't watch?
BROWN: No. I'm not going to -- no. It's about ratings for a lot of these networks, and I'm not willing to give them ratings, I'm not willing to give them a dime.
KING: Thank you all very much for reliving tough memories.
Denise Brown, Fred Goldman, Kim Goldman, Tom Lang, Phil Vannatter. I'll be back in a minute to tell you about the weekend. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Stay tuned for more news around the clock on your most trusted name in news, CNN. Good night. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
