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CNN Larry King Live
Interviews With Deepak Chopra, Harvey Mackay, Dick Enberg, Stephen R. Covey, Renee Fleming
Aired January 22, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Deepak Chopra, the world-renowned spiritual adviser says that in these times of war and terrorism, you can be more powerful than any weapon. Plus...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, "THE APPRENTICE": You didn't have the leadership. You're fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: What to do if you hear those words and it's not a TV show, with Harvey Mackay, the best selling motivational author. And then, Dick Enberg, giant of sportscasting, takes you backstage at some of TV's most unforgettable moments. Also Stephen Covey, he revolutionized the motivational field with "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" and now he'll tell you about the eighth habit.
And a true, real live diva. Opera great Renee Fleming, one of the world's most spectacular singing voices speaks. They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
It's always a great pleasure to welcome Deepak Chopra to LARRY KING LIVE. He's a "New York Times" best selling author. His newest book is "Peace Is the Way." He's deeply involved in the Alliance for the New Humanity, an organization dedicated to the pursuit of peace, non-violence and social justice, as well as a global network of peace makers. Where did the title come from?
DEEPAK CHOPRA, SPIRITUAL ADVISER, AUTHOR, "PEACE IS THE WAY": It comes from a quote by Mahatma Gandhi who said, there's no way to peace. Peace is the way. He said, can you be the change that you wish to see in the world, because we've tried everything. Activism has failed. Humanitarianism has failed. You know, we have so many you call them peaceniks or other people call them peaceniks who go there and campaign for peace and sooner or later, they upset the other side and then they become angry. So you have this very interesting contradiction of an angry peace maker.
KING: Why has it never worked?
CHOPRA: It hasn't worked because we've never had a collective, critical threshold of peace consciousness in the world. I think if I were to ask you, do you want peace of mind, you would say, yes. If you ask anybody on the street, do you want peace of mind, they would say yes. So why not start right there? Why not say, let's forget about all the big issues right now. Can you cultivate a state of consciousness where you have peace of mind? Can you be a beacon of peace yourself, with your family, with your friends, with those that you come into contact with? And if there are enough people like that in the world, because consciousness is a field, maybe that will change the world, because everything else has failed.
So can you be -- you know, there's a phrase in ancient wisdom traditions. When a person is perfectly established in peace consciousness, then all beings around them cease to feel hostility.
KING: You don't think violence then is inherent.
CHOPRA: I think the human soul has two tendencies. One is the tendency for fear, separation, anger, delusion that I'm separate, and the other tendency we all have is the tendency for love, compassion, understanding, healing and getting to be with each other. The tendency for fear and anger is fueled by a sense of injustice and what a sense of injustice does, a perceived sense of injustice does is, it lets this part of yourself, which modern psychologists and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) call the shadow self, the shadow self that is dark, that is secretive, that is dangerous, that is primitive, that is steeped in mythology, that is irrational.
This shadow emerges when there's a removal of a sense of responsibility, when there is anonymity, when there are degrading, dehumanizing conditions, when there are poor examples of pure behavior, when there's permission to do harm. So you know, when we have this Abu Ghraib prison scandal, for example, the official response was, it's a few bad apples. Americans are not like that. But the fact is Larry, you and I are like that. If they put us in those dehumanizing, degrading conditions where we are full of fear and our own...
KING: Capable of anything.
CHOPRA: We're capable of anything.
KING: You write that everyone has benefited from war's gifts. War provides an outlet for national vengeance, satisfies demands of fear, brings power to the victor, security to the homeland, provides avenue for getting what you want by force. Those are all pluses it looks like.
CHOPRA: Yes, but can we look at the damage it does? It might give you a certain sense of empowerment personally, but can you see the havoc it wreaks? It's all in the interpretation. We call certain people terrorists, right? But those same people say when we launched the shock and awe campaign and we have a mechanized version of death from 30,000 above sea level. We use depleted uranium in our bombs and we don't even see the devastation that we've caused. That word shock and awe is interpreted as terror.
KING: But terrorists don't call themselves terrorists. They don't look in the mirror and say, I am a terrorist.
CHOPRA: No, nobody. And in fact there is no one in the world who thinks they're not on God's side either.
KING: God's on everybody's side.
CHOPRA: God's on everybody's side. I think in many ways religion and nationalism are the two scourges of humanity.
KING: How do I use this book?
CHOPRA: Well, you use this book first by learning to become a peace maker yourself. I have seven practices listed there. For Sunday a practice of being peace, for Monday a practice of thinking peace, for Tuesday a practice of feeling peace, for Wednesday a practice of speaking peace, for Thursday a practice for acting peace, doing something peaceful, for Friday a practice for sharing peace and then for Saturday, a celebration. And I believe that if you practice these principals in your personal life, that you will see a radical transformation in your personal life.
KING: I can use this as a how-to.
CHOPRA: You can use this as a how-to and then what we're doing also, as part of my efforts of the CEO of the Alliance for the New Humanity, which is a group of humanitarians, peacemakers, ecologists, economists, all over the world, includes Nobel laureates like Oscar Arias (ph) and Betty Williams, we're creating peace cells all over the world. These are groups of 10 and more.
KING: Is that the global network?
CHOPRA: That's the global network and the global network is creating peace cells. So you can go to this on the web if you type out peace is the way, globalcommunity.org. So I'll repeat that, peace is the way, globalcommunity.org. We see the resolution of conflict in terms of economy, in terms of understanding people in their context, in terms of social justice, in terms of ecology. We see that actually it's a tangled hierarchy that creates all this. You know, war is based on commercial enterprise.
I mean the commerce of war is one of the biggest commerces in the world. The five permanent members of the security council make 95 percent of the weapons of mass destruction in the world and you know, they're supposed to be in charge of our security. If you don't -- and who makes weapons but multinational corporations. That's linked to lobbyists. That's linked to politicians. That's linked to a lot of self interest groups in the world. Without the commerce of war, we wouldn't have this devastation in the world.
And everybody's guilty. I mean in a world where we spend trillions of dollars on things like strategic defense initiatives, star wars technology, stealth bombers which cost $2.5 billion, a stealth bomber, one stealth bomber cost $2. -- in a world where 50 percent of the people live on less than $2 a day and 20 percent of the people live on less than $1 a day, how can you separate the sense of injustice from the commerce.
KING: How do I get into the global network of peacemakers, by going to the Internet?
CHOPRA: But first by making a commitment that you will seek peace of mind yourself. I mean that's...
KING: I would want to make...
CHOPRA: Right, then if you have that commitment, then welcome to the global alliance for a new humanity, because once you do that, and you collect with 10 people who are doing the same thing, you create a network. We're calling this the connection of the neural networks of the new planetary mind. We think there are enough people in the world who want peace. Now they have to connect with each other.
KING: Is this very much an eastern thought?
CHOPRA: Actually, you know, in a way, but it's also in biology, there's a phenomenon called metamorphosis, when a caterpillar, which is a worm, turns into a beautiful creature which is a butterfly. And the mechanics of that is very fascinating. At a certain point in its development, the caterpillar's body starts to die. There's an imbalance between consumption and its metabolic needs and within the body of the caterpillar, there are a few cells that scientists refer to as the imaginal cells, as in they're imagining or dreaming a new reality.
And soon these imaginal cells start to connect with each other, and as the rest of the body of the caterpillar dies, they use the dying carcass of the caterpillar as their nutritive soup. And when that connectivity reaches a critical threshold, then a genetic code wakes up, which has the information for wings, a new metabolism, a new creature that seeks its way to freedom.
So I think we right now could be those imaginal cells, and the chaos and the devastation and the psychological (ph) imbalance and the destruction could be our nutritive soup. If it wasn't happening, we wouldn't have this impulse.
KING: We'll ask when we come back in our remaining segment with Deepak Chopra, author of "Peace Is the Way," whether organized religion is a hindrance to this. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: The book "Peace Is the Way," his newest, Deepak Chopra, always great to have you with us. Is organized religion a menace to this?
CHOPRA: Yes, but you know more so, I will address that, but even more so, what has become toxic nationalism in the world. It's politically incorrect now to not be a nationalist. Einstein said nationalism is the measles of humanity. It is an infantile disease. Eric Fromm, the great psychologist, said nationalism is our form of incest and patriotism is its cult. Krishna Muti (ph), a great philosopher, said nationalism is sophisticated tribalism. So you know, we're emerging into a global culture where everything, our cultures, our economies... KING: But you have the love of your country. I mean, you love your country, don't you?
CHOPRA: I love my country, but I am now looking at the world as my family, because if I become jingoistic and totally self-centered, that's where the problem is. Then I want to impose my values on the rest of the world. And that is where the perceived sense of injustice and the dark shadows and the ghost-filled attics of our dark self emerge and religion does the same thing, particularly fundamentalist religion has become idiotic, divisive and quarrelsome.
KING: You also urge people to become peace makers, give us that dot.com thing again.
CHOPRA: OK. It's peace is the way, globalcommunity.org, peace is the way, global community.org. And you can become a peacemaker and help create that critical mass that we're so looking for.
KING: When you look at England and Northern Ireland, Palestinians and Jews, doesn't that make you pessimistic?
CHOPRA: No. I think, you know, Northern Ireland and England have come a long way.
KING: But how long...
CHOPRA: It took, but it did happen, and Sri Lanka as you see now, it's coming to a resolution. I think we need a new generation of people who think differently, who are willing to go beyond ethnocentrism, racism, bigotry, hatred, prejudice and fundamental religion.
KING: You are an optimist?
CHOPRA: Well, there's no other choice Larry. I'm in the autumn of my life. I know I have a few years left. I want to see a better world for my children and for my grandchildren. And if I don't put my effort into this, nothing else will matter. I've spent my life doing things, but you know and partly were for me. And I can say comfortably, been there, done that. I want to, in the remaining years of my life, dedicate myself to a better world.
KING: Because the opposite of peace is idiotic, isn't it?
CHOPRA: The opposite of peace -- I mean we have to murder people to get our way. I mean can you imagine, we're living in the 21st century and we still have to murder people to get our way. And everybody does it. I mean you see the Hindus and Muslims. You see the Jews and Arabs. You see the Protestants and Catholics.
KING: Insane.
CHOPRA: It's total insanity. What we call normal is the psychosis of the collective so prevalent that we take it for granted.
KING: But it's built into us, isn't it? I mean... CHOPRA: The impulse is built in, but on the other hand, we're evolving creatures. Jonas Salk said the next phase of our evolution is meta-biological evolution, survival of the wisest, not survival of the fittest. He says that's the old paradigm. The new criteria is survival of the wisest. The wisest are those that are part of a mature eco- system where cooperation and not conflict is the solution.
KING: Do you ever get upset?
CHOPRA: No, not any more. I used to.
KING: How do you do that?
CHOPRA: Because I recognize that if I get upset, I only aggravate the problem and I don't want to aggravate the problem.
KING: But you had to learn that.
CHOPRA: I had to learn that. You have to learn these things. You have to learn what you put to change (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You learn what your priorities are and getting a little older helps, you know. Confronting your mortality and looking behind you and seeing that the prince of death is stalking you. I'm on death row. The only uncertainty is the method of execution and the length of reprieve. So I better make good use of my time.
KING: Do you believe there's something after this?
CHOPRA: I believe that consciousness survives physical death. I do believe that for every off there's an on and for every on, there's an off and that death makes life possible.
KING: So consciousness survives in what form?
CHOPRA: As a potential for cognition, for perception, for thought, for biological function. In biology, we have a term called apoptosis, which means programmed cellular death. And if you don't have that, you get cancer. Cancer is a vacation from death. And death is what makes life possible. If we didn't have death, the world would be mummified. It would be static. It would be sterile. There would be no freshness. We would all be doomed to eternal senility. Thank God for death. It makes life always fresh.
KING: For you, but not for me.
CHOPRA: Protons come and go. Molecules come and go. Atoms come and go. Tissues and organs come and go and intelligence -- the universe is constantly recycling and recreating itself.
KING: So you believe peace is possible.
CHOPRA: I believe that we have no choice. We risk our extinction or we can create a world where there will be peace and harmony and laughter and love, economic empowerment for the poor, social justice, a healthy ecology and resolution of conflict without murder.
KING: You're a good man, Deepak.
CHOPRA: Thanks, Larry.
KING: Deepak Chopra, the new book is "Peace Is the Way" and the global network of peacemakers of course and give me the --
CHOPRA: Peace is the way, globalcommunity.org and we'll actually turn (ph) you to all the peace organizations.
KING: Thank you Deepak.
CHOPRA: Thanks.
KING: Deepak Chopra, the book, Peace Is the Way." I'll be right back. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We welcome a good friend, Harvey Mackay to LARRY KING LIVE. He wrote one of the most famous business books ever written, more than a business book, might be called a crossover, "Swimming With the Sharks." He's one of the world's best selling motivational and business authors, recipient of the 2004 Horatio Alger Award and his new book, a terrific read, even if I'm just a part of it. "We Got Fired and It's the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Us." How did you come up with this idea?
HARVEY MACKAY, AUTHOR, "WE GOT FIRED": Well, for about 40 years, I've had an avocation Larry of helping other people with their careers, both young and old and I started to see a trend that everybody was landing on their feet. I started watching the newspapers, reading the newspapers, magazines, TV, famous people, landing on their feet after they've been fired. So there's been a national funeral out there the last three or four years. About four million people have lost their jobs. They've held those jobs at least three years, so I decided, as long as I had the format, I'd write about it.
KING: And you came up with this before the famous Trump line of "you're fired," right?
MACKAY: Yes, but I have to thank him very much for coming with "The Apprentice" because two years ago -- I've been working on the book for two years -- so I was about a year and a half ahead of him. And unbeknown to me, "The Apprentice" came out just out of nowhere, became in our culture, you're fired and of course I rode that wave and I'm very thankful for him.
KING: Now he's in the book too?
MACKAY: He's in the book. I called him up. I said, Donald, have you ever been fired? He said, are you kidding? I worked for my father. He never would have fired me. And I said, well then, how about giving me a chapter on how you fire and your philosophy about it. Very interesting to just to kind of paraphrase what he said. He said, it's not the people you fire who make your life miserable. It's the people you don't fire who make your life miserable.
KING: Why?
MACKAY: Very interesting.
KING: This runs concurrent with a lot of -- there's a lot of famous people in this book and a lot of people you write about, people like David Halberstam and Jeffrey Katzenberg and Walt Disney was fired. What do you think -- what happens to that person do you think, who excels after a disaster?
MACKAY: Well, they all have and there's some common denominators.
KING: What is that?
MACKAY: Number one, the moment you get fired, don't take it personally. That's a big time must.
KING: Hard not to do.
MACKAY: Number two, absolutely. You can't saw sawdust, which means you can't cry over spilled milk. Get on with your life. Even you in your interview said hey, don't hold grudges. Lou Holtz (ph) gets fired from Arkansas. The sun's going to come up tomorrow. You know, don't be bitter. Holtz, the king of the one-liners also said that if you're going to burn your bridges, you'd better be a darn good swimmer. So therefore you don't burn bridges. Number four, you get a kitchen cabinet. You rely upon people. Number five, 70 percent of all jobs come from networking, so therefore start building that network and you have to know that's how you're going to land on your feet.
KING: You think Harvey that it might even be fortunate to be fired?
MACKAY: Well, as far as these 20 famous people that I interviewed, plus 20 not so famous people that I interviewed, with the right attitude. You know, your attitude determines your altitude. And I'm of course an aphorism junkie but I have to end each chapter with one of those morals, and therefore I believe strongly in all those morals that are in the book. Yes, it can be a lemon in the lemonade, if you've got the right attitude. If you accept it right away and Mayor Michael Bloomberg, 1981, he told me in his office that he's fired, clearly out of the sky, unexpectedly, OK from Goldman Sachs. So he said, I'll get those guys. Tomorrow morning, tomorrow morning, I'm sorry, he was fired from Salomon Brothers, pardon me, Larry. Michael Bloomberg, fired from Salomon Brothers.
KING: Did pretty good.
MACKAY: And so now he said, I'll get those guys. Goldman Sachs will hire me. OK, tomorrow morning when they read it, the "New York Times," Goldman Sachs never called. What happened to him forms what I think is one of the finest companies in the history of our country, $3 billion in sales, $3 billion in sales, 6,000 employees, 126 countries piping financial information to. He also said to me and I'll never forget this, how bad are they going to be? OK, if you're looking at the right side of the grass. Michael Bloomberg.
KING: You're a successful businessman. You've had to fire people. Is there a secret to firing someone?
MACKAY: Well, this is interesting now. Trump also told me, Donald said this and this is the only thing I disagree with him on. He said that when you fire someone, it doesn't matter. He or she will -- these are his words in the book, will hate you the rest of your life. I think, I don't necessarily go along with that at all. I think you can be compassionate. I think you can be sympathetic. I think you can let them know that you really care about that person. You're willing to help. You've got a good memory. I mean I fired a secretary 35 years ago. She was in my office last week. I mean we're still friends. The job just got a little bit bigger than what her capacity was and we're still friends, so I think that there's different strokes for different folks. But I think you can be a human being.
KING: Can we learn from this or do you think that's an inborn thing? You either have it or you don't.
MACKAY: Jesse "The Body" Ventura, another chapter in the book. He said you're not a failure, OK, if you get fired. You're a failure if you fail to learn from that firing. So therefore he said there's no guarantees in life, no security in life. The day you get hired you should prepare to be fired. So yes, I think you can learn without question. Let's look at some stats. These are not typos. The average college graduate this coming June, he or she will have 12 to 14 different job changes in his or her life and three to five different career changes. Wow. So therefore, you have to be prepared. You have to be versatile. I love the story about Lou Holtz. He's 123 pounds, so skinny he can tread water in a test tube. He can't make the football team, but then he decides, I'll learn all 11 positions which he did do and then make the high school football team. That's what you should do if you're employed right now. Enhance your skills, widen your skills, increase the probability, if you do get fire, OK, you'll get a job.
KING: It's a terrific book. "We Got Fired and It's the Best Thing that Ever Happened to Us." My picture's on there. I'm in it. It is a wonderful read. He's the author of course of "Swim With the Sharks," one of the -- maybe one of the great selling books of all time.
MACKAY: Well, thank you. I'm proud of it.
KING: I'm proud to know you.
MACKAY: Thank you. Thank you Larry.
KING: Harvey Mackay. It's a terrific read, the book "We Got Fired and It's the Best Thing that Ever Happened to Us." We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE one of my favorite book and one of the great sports announcers ever -- Dick Enberg -- the Emmy Award-winning CBS sportscaster, author of a terrific new autobiographer, "Dick Enberg: Oh My!" co-written with Jim Perry.
Dick joins us from Pittsburgh. We broadcast last week's game between the Steelers and the Jets.
How did you come up with "Oh my!"?
DICK ENBERG, CBS SPORTSCASTER & AUTHOR: Well, Larry, it actually -- as your Midwestern audience would attest -- it's a common expression, and you'll hear it in public places. People will react in amazement or surprise, or even just acknowledgement, "Oh my," or "Oh, my!"
And when I became the new announcer for the Indiana University sports network -- their very first network -- I said, well, I'm doing Big 10 football and basketball. Now, I need a signature call.
And, of course, "Oh, holy cow," had been taken by Harry Caray, and "Oh, doctor," was Red Barber's, and Mel Allen had, "Well, how about that."
So, I tried "Oh my". And it has been a good friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ENBERG: He's got some (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and he throws. Intercepted. It's Reggie Tongue. The man from Anchorage, Alaska. And he's trying to take it the full distance.
Tongue has a treble (ph) touchdown. Oh, my!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENBERG: The guys in the college graduate dorm, after a couple of games said, "Hey, Enberg. Oh, my!"
And I thought, well, that's it. And it's been a good friend since 1957.
KING: You've touched so many bases. Why did you finally decide to write this?
ENBERG: Well, I thought about it for about 10 years. And, Larry, much like your books, there's so much to share.
And I've been rubbing shoulders -- now 50 years I've been a sportscaster -- and rubbing shoulders with greatness. And the life lessons that I've learned, the humor, the craziness of the business.
Sitting next to hall of fame colleagues in the broadcast booth, from Don Drysdale to Al McGuire and Billy Packard, Dan Dierdorf, Merlin Olsen, Pat Hayden, John McEnroe, Chris Evert, Johnny Miller -- just those individuals alone have taught me so much and have allowed my life to be so bright, I wanted to share it with a bigger audience.
KING: Also, great pictures. And I love your little notes by the pictures. I thought that was novel and unique.
ENBERG: Thank you. Thank you.
Well, how about the sauna interview? Have you ever conducted -- I know you've talked to more people than any of the rest of us put together.
But I actually, in 1983, had to conduct an interview in a sauna in Helsinki. It was the only way ...
KING: I never did that.
ENBERG: ... that this -- the medical doctor would conduct the interview. He said, you've got to take your clothes off. The sauna is sacred in Finland. And that's the only way I'll do it.
KING: Down to the peg, is baseball your favorite sport to do?
ENBERG: It's the most challenging, and it's the most difficult of all the sports, Larry.
And Ted Williams, who was my idol -- and, of course, whenever Ted asked you a question, he already knew the answer. And he came barking in one day to me.
"So, OK, Enberg. What is the toughest game to call?"
And I said, "Ted, it's your game. It's baseball."
A three-hour game, and within that three hours, you may only have 10, 12 interesting plays. What do you do with the rest of the time?
I mean, anyone can say groundball to short, throw the first two out. But what do you -- when the pitcher won't throw the ball, how do you fill in that time? How do you paint the total picture? How do you build the drama of a no-hit, no-run game?
And then, you have 200 games a year, when you count spring training.
So, baseball is the most demanding. And I think the real test of play-by-play talent is measured in the game of baseball. If you can do baseball well, you can call any game.
KING: And you were one of the best.
Speaking of that, what do you think of the new steroid policy?
ENBERG: I think it could have been tougher. At least they're taking steps forward. It took them long enough.
I applaud the fact that there are going to be more penalties. I'd like to see it even stiffer.
KING: How about the basketball brawl incident? You've done a lot of basketball. ENBERG: Well, I think that athletes have to look at the arena -- not only basketball, but all sports -- as having an invisible barbed wire around the arena. And they just can't pass through that.
And there are so many more good guys and great athletes that are good than there are the bad apples. And I think that the players themselves, they have to be more responsible in policing their own.
And in turn, I think security at the various arenas has to be tightened.
I don't want to be sitting -- nor do you, nor does anyone in your audience -- next to some jerk who wants to shout vulgarities and profanities around you and your family. Those individuals have to be shown to the exits, as well.
It's a difficult problem. But I think the athletes, ultimately, no matter how ugly the audience may be, are the ones who have to take care of themselves.
KING: Dick, sports and showmanship and show, is it this thin line -- we take the thing that Randy Moss did?
ENBERG: Well, ...
KING: They fine them for it, yet people -- don't they like to see celebrations? And where do you -- is it a -- when do you go over the line?
ENBERG: Well, I think good taste is the measure. I don't think that was in particularly good taste.
I don't mind the dancing.
You know, think how far we've come, Larry. In 1988, just 16 years ago, Ickey Woods, remember, did that Ickey shuffle. And the NFL was appalled, and they said, you can't do that unless you go to the sidelines. Then you can do your dance. Otherwise, we're going to penalize you. And that was just a silly little hip-hop dance.
I think that -- it must be interesting what some of these athletes do, rehearsing in their bathroom, to try to come up with something that's unique and different.
I think good taste should be the measure, and I'm not sure that all the athletes are capable of exercising that.
KING: What was the idea of having a DVD along with the book?
ENBERG: That's something new. The sports publishing company in Illinois that published the book thought that by doing a three-hour interview with me, expanding upon some of the vignettes that I share in the book, would help the audience to be able to even appreciate more the stories that they've already read in the book.
It's a new idea. And so far, the response has been very solid. The book is within the top five biographies currently being sold, and we've only been out a little over a month. So, I'm very pleased at the reaction.
KING: Well, I'm halfway through it. It's a terrific read.
And I know of your love for horseracing, a love we share. Are you concerned about dwindling attendance and the need for slot machines at tracks?
ENBERG: And apparently, Larry, that's the only way that the sport is going to survive. And it saddens me.
More people seem to be going to off-track betting than going to the great theaters for horseracing -- San Anita, Hollywood Park out in the West Coast.
I guess Del Mar and Saratoga are the two tracks that still flourish in the popularity of fans visiting, because they're summer resort, high energy, happy tourist times.
But the sport needs some direction. I've always contended that they have individual duchies. Every racetrack is its own entity.
And that somehow, all of them have to gather together and combine their efforts to try to sell the sport. It's a magnificent sport. We both love it. And television does a good job of covering it.
But I think that they're not a unified operation in terms of addressing it to the public.
KING: Dick, it's always wonderful to see you. I'll see you at the Kiddy Cord -- Kid's Corps dinner down in San Diego. And I salute you on a terrific book.
ENBERG: Thanks, Larry. I appreciate it. And keep up all your generosity to charity.
KING: Dick Enberg, the Emmy Award-winning CBS sportscaster. One of the best ever, oh, my.
"Dick Enberg: Oh My!" is the title of the book. It's available everywhere books are sold.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We now welcome another extraordinary friend. The number one bestselling author of "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People."
The new book is "The 8th Habit: From Effectiveness to Greatness." It includes a bonus DVD of 16 inspirational films.
What took so long between habits, Steve?
STEPHEN R. COVEY, AUTHOR, "THE 7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE": Well, I started to discover the movement from the Industrial Age to the Information Age, where most people literally have lost their voice.
And there's so much job alienation and so much, what you might call, the loss of the feeling of personal significance and greatness inside the person.
KING: So, you missed that 15 years ago with the seventh habit? Or is this revolutionary?
COVEY: Well, that was when we were still in the Industrial Age. And most of the products and services, the value added to them came from manual work. Today, most of it comes from knowledge work.
And ...
KING: Yes.
COVEY: ... so, we have to focus so much more on the development of people.
KING: Terrific book.
And you write that the eighth habit, basically, is to find your voice and inspire others to find theirs.
What do you mean?
COVEY: Well, find your voice basically means that there are four parts to our nature: our body, our mind, our heart and our spirit. And they're reflected in basically answering these questions.
What is my talent? What am I really good at? In other words, what do I love doing, my passion?
What is it that I -- what need can I serve that really adds value and can maybe drive an economic engine?
And fourth, what does my conscience tell me that I should do?
And the more people combine all four of those, the more they come up with the feeling of what their voice is. It's like a compass.
This watch is a compass and a clock. And most people drive their life by the clock.
The key is the sense of direction, the sense of what is your unique genius, your talent, your voice.
That's what you represent, Larry.
KING: Yes, but the question is, does it come naturally, or is it teachable?
COVEY: Well, I think that often it comes from other people affirming that you have these kind of capacities and talents. In fact, I can ask almost any audience, how many of you have achieved your level of success partly, or even largely, because someone believed in you when you didn't believe in yourself?
And you'll find that two-thirds of the people will raise their hand. And they become very emotional as they describe how other people literally affirmed them so deeply and powerfully, that it helped them find their voice.
KING: The other thing, Steve, that you're a little idealistic, a little moralistic in times that are basically confusing and more stressful.
COVEY: I think that this is so true about our times. And it's a changing time.
But unless we build our lives on that which has really changed less, we live in a world of insecurity and confusion.
That's why I focus so heavily on the importance of living by principles that are universal and timeless.
And the finding of one's voice is based on development of those principles inside your own nature, so that you literally feel your security within, and you're no longer a function of all of the relativistic and confusing reality that is out there.
KING: Can some of the principles be harsh?
COVEY: Well, integrity is sometimes a harsh principle. Sometimes being truly fair and just. To be kind and respectful to someone who is unkind to you is a hard thing to do.
But the more you get your security from within rather than from without, the more you'll find that you have power and you have what I call moral authority.
In fact, my definition of leadership is, communicating to other people their worth and their potential so clearly they come to see it in themselves.
And I think that's a great definition also of being a parent.
You're a parent. And I know you want to build in your own children the sense of their worth and their potential, to where they come to deeply feel it inside themselves.
KING: Is greatness achievable by many more people than have it?
COVEY: Oh, absolutely. In fact, greatness -- if you define it not as prestige and money and reputation, but more as character and contribution -- you're constantly interviewing people almost on a daily basis, of people that have really made great contributions, and that are real heroes to other people and inspire other people.
Many of them are young children like that Alex that you interviewed and you enjoyed, ...
KING: Yes.
COVEY: ... and Scott.
I mean, this is an eight-year-old kid. Alex was a genius poet at the age of 14. These people have found their voice.
You take a person like Oprah, or someone that clearly has found their voice -- and your own show where you have found your voice -- is a good illustration of someone that just brings together all of these different capacities and this passion.
And their conscience drives them to it.
KING: You know, Steve, I don't know of any person who, through speaking and writing, has helped more people than you. And I salute you.
COVEY: Well, I appreciate that, Larry, very much.
I think that the DVDs in here help visual learners, because they have stories in them. And a lot of them have won national records and awards for their quality and their excellence.
And they immediately communicate the essence of each chapter.
KING: Steve, I thank you very much. Steve Covey. The book -- the new one -- is "The 8th Habit: From Effectiveness to Greatness." The book includes that bonus DVD.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: It's now a great honor to welcome Renee Fleming to LARRY KING LIVE. The internationally renowned vocal artist acclaimed as the gold standard of soprano sound.
The Grammy-winning recording artist. Her latest CD is the "Arias of Handel."
She's the author of "The Inner Voice: The Making of a Singer." She's in San Francisco.
Renee, what do you mean by the "inner voice"?
RENEE FLEMING, WORLD-RENOWNED OPERA STAR: Well, the inner voice actually covers a wide spectrum of issues, from intuition that guides me -- and guides all of us -- to the part that I -- the way in which I can hear my own singing, which is through the inner ear, in a sense. And one has to imagine it.
But the inner voice, as a concept, it's always appealed to me in a tremendous way.
KING: A very candid book. And did singing come easily to you?
FLEMING: No, it really didn't. I mean, obviously, I grew up in a musical family, and we all sing.
But the kind of singing I do is so cultivated and so extreme -- I call it extreme singing, in a way -- because we're not amplified. We have to achieve the complete range of possibilities for the human voice.
And it took a lot of years of study and a lot of hard work.
KING: Why did you write the book?
FLEMING: Well, I wrote the book because I wanted to kind of provide for young singers the book I would have adored having when I was a Juilliard student.
And I also wanted to speak to the audience, and to people who come up to me after a performance and say, boy, you were so lucky to be born with that gift.
And they don't have a clue what comes between the gift -- the voice itself -- and being on stage.
So, it spells it out, really, for people.
KING: You've said, Renee, that you have a moral responsibility to reach as many people as possible with your voice.
Why a moral responsibility?
FLEMING: Well, you know, it's not -- it's not my voice, per se. It's classical music.
And with shrinking accessibility for classical music, both through schools and through the media, the wider an audience I can reach, and the more people who can be exposed to it, the more possibility we have not only for performing, but for bringing this, the greatest music in history, to the public.
KING: Why don't more people appreciate it?
FLEMING: Well, it's a -- it's definitely an acquired taste. And it's one which requires a little bit of education, much like wine, jazz -- a lot of the finer things in life.
Great literature, poetry require a desire on the part of the person, of the audience member, to expand, to learn, to grow and to not necessarily take the easiest route.
That said, I think opera is tremendously accessible in certain ways.
KING: You were an ugly duckling?
FLEMING: Oh, yes. KING: Yes, like, what did you look like as a kid?
FLEMING: Oh, God. You know, it was painful. I wore the same three-inch-wide, pink headband every single day.
You know, I had corrective shoes and bad skin. And I didn't know how to dress.
And I just -- oh, God, I wanted to -- I wanted to fly. I really wanted to be something else.
KING: You are not a diva, are you.
FLEMING: Well, I hope I'm a diva on stage. You know, diva means goddess.
And it's the kind of inspiration that I hope is transmitted to the audience through, not just my voice, but how I express the music.
But every day -- no, I'm definitely not a diva.
KING: It's -- it may mean goddess, but it's come to be a demeaning word, right? She's a diva.
FLEMING: Yes.
KING: Right?
FLEMING: Well, it's temperamental. It has a -- it has almost a better known negative connotation now than a positive one.
It means temperamental. It means bad behavior, backstage antics, jealousy, scandal. Yes.
KING: In the opera setting, how important -- we talk about the horse and the jockey -- is the orchestra?
FLEMING: Oh, the orchestra is tremendously important. They provide the support for us. They provide the entire musical underpinning.
And the opera -- see, the opera -- I think it's the greatest art form, because there's dance, there's the visual, there's artistic, there's acting, theater, orchestra.
And the orchestra really -- we are kind of the icing on the cake, and they're the cake.
KING: Can a great orchestra help an average singer? And can a great singer help an average orchestra?
FLEMING: Definitely. Definitely.
KING: Both are truth.
FLEMING: Yes, I think -- I think, an average singer, because the singer is the soloist, can't be so helped by an orchestra. But there's no question, in the other sense, that we can all work together and collaborate.
It's an ensemble effort, in a way.
KING: How often do you have to work with your voice?
FLEMING: Well, I sing all the time, because I work all the time.
KING: I mean, you do exercises daily, too?
FLEMING: Almost. Almost every day. I mean, it's a little bit like dancing.
The exception is that, because it's -- I use my voice in speech constantly.
I find that if I take two weeks off, I'm actually in better form. Whereas dancers tell me that after two weeks, they have to really get back in shape.
KING: Do you often take two weeks off?
FLEMING: No. I should.
KING: You like working.
FLEMING: I do. I love it. I love what I do.
I've definitely found my voice.
KING: Oh, boy.
Was Juilliard all it's cracked up to be?
FLEMING: Oh, yes. Well, when I was at Juilliard, I was in a program that was post-graduate. And to have all of that instruction without -- to have it be subsidized, that was the key for me.
The top instruction -- my -- the greatest voice teacher I worked with for 16 years.
And it's at Lincoln Center. So, on my nights off I could cross the street and get a standing-room ticket for $8 at the Met. I think they're $10 now.
KING: You were also a Fulbright scholar, right?
FLEMING: Right. I had a terrific education.
KING: Where did you go, Germany?
FLEMING: Germany, for a year.
KING: Did you sing there? FLEMING: I sang a little bit, but I mostly studied. I really wasn't in any shape then to be singing professionally. And people let me know that real quick.
KING: Do you know -- do you know -- many famous singers and musicians have told me, they know in the first five minutes how they're going to do.
FLEMING: Oh, yes.
KING: Do you know?
FLEMING: Somebody told me recently that they know before the performance ever begins, days before.
I have a different performance ritual. And I suffer tremendously in advance in exchange for being able to do well.
So, we all have our way.
KING: So, or you go through pains.
FLEMING: Oh, just misery.
KING: Is it also true that -- Isaac Stern once told me, on nights he plays that he thinks the worst, he gets the most standing ovations.
FLEMING: That is true. I noticed that in auditioning. When I thought I was horrible, I would get engaged. And when I thought I was great, people didn't appreciate it.
Really, I've learned through experience we're not the best judge of how we're doing.
KING: Do you have a favorite role?
FLEMING: I don't. I have -- I'm such a gray person. Ah, I'm wearing gray.
I have several things that I really love, from Strauss to Verdi to Mozart. And there are so many wonderful composers. Variety is really the thing I love most.
KING: Can't wait to meet you in person.
FLEMING: Me, too. Thank you.
KING: Renee Fleming. The book is "The Inner Voice: The Making of a Singer." An extraordinary talent.
We thank her very much for joining us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Thanks very much for joining us on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Hope you enjoyed meeting these fantastic people. All interesting, all cultured, all successful. All pretty special.
Stay tuned now for another thing that's pretty special, your news around the clock on your most trusted name in news, CNN. See you tomorrow night. Good night.
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Aired January 22, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Deepak Chopra, the world-renowned spiritual adviser says that in these times of war and terrorism, you can be more powerful than any weapon. Plus...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, "THE APPRENTICE": You didn't have the leadership. You're fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: What to do if you hear those words and it's not a TV show, with Harvey Mackay, the best selling motivational author. And then, Dick Enberg, giant of sportscasting, takes you backstage at some of TV's most unforgettable moments. Also Stephen Covey, he revolutionized the motivational field with "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" and now he'll tell you about the eighth habit.
And a true, real live diva. Opera great Renee Fleming, one of the world's most spectacular singing voices speaks. They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
It's always a great pleasure to welcome Deepak Chopra to LARRY KING LIVE. He's a "New York Times" best selling author. His newest book is "Peace Is the Way." He's deeply involved in the Alliance for the New Humanity, an organization dedicated to the pursuit of peace, non-violence and social justice, as well as a global network of peace makers. Where did the title come from?
DEEPAK CHOPRA, SPIRITUAL ADVISER, AUTHOR, "PEACE IS THE WAY": It comes from a quote by Mahatma Gandhi who said, there's no way to peace. Peace is the way. He said, can you be the change that you wish to see in the world, because we've tried everything. Activism has failed. Humanitarianism has failed. You know, we have so many you call them peaceniks or other people call them peaceniks who go there and campaign for peace and sooner or later, they upset the other side and then they become angry. So you have this very interesting contradiction of an angry peace maker.
KING: Why has it never worked?
CHOPRA: It hasn't worked because we've never had a collective, critical threshold of peace consciousness in the world. I think if I were to ask you, do you want peace of mind, you would say, yes. If you ask anybody on the street, do you want peace of mind, they would say yes. So why not start right there? Why not say, let's forget about all the big issues right now. Can you cultivate a state of consciousness where you have peace of mind? Can you be a beacon of peace yourself, with your family, with your friends, with those that you come into contact with? And if there are enough people like that in the world, because consciousness is a field, maybe that will change the world, because everything else has failed.
So can you be -- you know, there's a phrase in ancient wisdom traditions. When a person is perfectly established in peace consciousness, then all beings around them cease to feel hostility.
KING: You don't think violence then is inherent.
CHOPRA: I think the human soul has two tendencies. One is the tendency for fear, separation, anger, delusion that I'm separate, and the other tendency we all have is the tendency for love, compassion, understanding, healing and getting to be with each other. The tendency for fear and anger is fueled by a sense of injustice and what a sense of injustice does, a perceived sense of injustice does is, it lets this part of yourself, which modern psychologists and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) call the shadow self, the shadow self that is dark, that is secretive, that is dangerous, that is primitive, that is steeped in mythology, that is irrational.
This shadow emerges when there's a removal of a sense of responsibility, when there is anonymity, when there are degrading, dehumanizing conditions, when there are poor examples of pure behavior, when there's permission to do harm. So you know, when we have this Abu Ghraib prison scandal, for example, the official response was, it's a few bad apples. Americans are not like that. But the fact is Larry, you and I are like that. If they put us in those dehumanizing, degrading conditions where we are full of fear and our own...
KING: Capable of anything.
CHOPRA: We're capable of anything.
KING: You write that everyone has benefited from war's gifts. War provides an outlet for national vengeance, satisfies demands of fear, brings power to the victor, security to the homeland, provides avenue for getting what you want by force. Those are all pluses it looks like.
CHOPRA: Yes, but can we look at the damage it does? It might give you a certain sense of empowerment personally, but can you see the havoc it wreaks? It's all in the interpretation. We call certain people terrorists, right? But those same people say when we launched the shock and awe campaign and we have a mechanized version of death from 30,000 above sea level. We use depleted uranium in our bombs and we don't even see the devastation that we've caused. That word shock and awe is interpreted as terror.
KING: But terrorists don't call themselves terrorists. They don't look in the mirror and say, I am a terrorist.
CHOPRA: No, nobody. And in fact there is no one in the world who thinks they're not on God's side either.
KING: God's on everybody's side.
CHOPRA: God's on everybody's side. I think in many ways religion and nationalism are the two scourges of humanity.
KING: How do I use this book?
CHOPRA: Well, you use this book first by learning to become a peace maker yourself. I have seven practices listed there. For Sunday a practice of being peace, for Monday a practice of thinking peace, for Tuesday a practice of feeling peace, for Wednesday a practice of speaking peace, for Thursday a practice for acting peace, doing something peaceful, for Friday a practice for sharing peace and then for Saturday, a celebration. And I believe that if you practice these principals in your personal life, that you will see a radical transformation in your personal life.
KING: I can use this as a how-to.
CHOPRA: You can use this as a how-to and then what we're doing also, as part of my efforts of the CEO of the Alliance for the New Humanity, which is a group of humanitarians, peacemakers, ecologists, economists, all over the world, includes Nobel laureates like Oscar Arias (ph) and Betty Williams, we're creating peace cells all over the world. These are groups of 10 and more.
KING: Is that the global network?
CHOPRA: That's the global network and the global network is creating peace cells. So you can go to this on the web if you type out peace is the way, globalcommunity.org. So I'll repeat that, peace is the way, globalcommunity.org. We see the resolution of conflict in terms of economy, in terms of understanding people in their context, in terms of social justice, in terms of ecology. We see that actually it's a tangled hierarchy that creates all this. You know, war is based on commercial enterprise.
I mean the commerce of war is one of the biggest commerces in the world. The five permanent members of the security council make 95 percent of the weapons of mass destruction in the world and you know, they're supposed to be in charge of our security. If you don't -- and who makes weapons but multinational corporations. That's linked to lobbyists. That's linked to politicians. That's linked to a lot of self interest groups in the world. Without the commerce of war, we wouldn't have this devastation in the world.
And everybody's guilty. I mean in a world where we spend trillions of dollars on things like strategic defense initiatives, star wars technology, stealth bombers which cost $2.5 billion, a stealth bomber, one stealth bomber cost $2. -- in a world where 50 percent of the people live on less than $2 a day and 20 percent of the people live on less than $1 a day, how can you separate the sense of injustice from the commerce.
KING: How do I get into the global network of peacemakers, by going to the Internet?
CHOPRA: But first by making a commitment that you will seek peace of mind yourself. I mean that's...
KING: I would want to make...
CHOPRA: Right, then if you have that commitment, then welcome to the global alliance for a new humanity, because once you do that, and you collect with 10 people who are doing the same thing, you create a network. We're calling this the connection of the neural networks of the new planetary mind. We think there are enough people in the world who want peace. Now they have to connect with each other.
KING: Is this very much an eastern thought?
CHOPRA: Actually, you know, in a way, but it's also in biology, there's a phenomenon called metamorphosis, when a caterpillar, which is a worm, turns into a beautiful creature which is a butterfly. And the mechanics of that is very fascinating. At a certain point in its development, the caterpillar's body starts to die. There's an imbalance between consumption and its metabolic needs and within the body of the caterpillar, there are a few cells that scientists refer to as the imaginal cells, as in they're imagining or dreaming a new reality.
And soon these imaginal cells start to connect with each other, and as the rest of the body of the caterpillar dies, they use the dying carcass of the caterpillar as their nutritive soup. And when that connectivity reaches a critical threshold, then a genetic code wakes up, which has the information for wings, a new metabolism, a new creature that seeks its way to freedom.
So I think we right now could be those imaginal cells, and the chaos and the devastation and the psychological (ph) imbalance and the destruction could be our nutritive soup. If it wasn't happening, we wouldn't have this impulse.
KING: We'll ask when we come back in our remaining segment with Deepak Chopra, author of "Peace Is the Way," whether organized religion is a hindrance to this. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: The book "Peace Is the Way," his newest, Deepak Chopra, always great to have you with us. Is organized religion a menace to this?
CHOPRA: Yes, but you know more so, I will address that, but even more so, what has become toxic nationalism in the world. It's politically incorrect now to not be a nationalist. Einstein said nationalism is the measles of humanity. It is an infantile disease. Eric Fromm, the great psychologist, said nationalism is our form of incest and patriotism is its cult. Krishna Muti (ph), a great philosopher, said nationalism is sophisticated tribalism. So you know, we're emerging into a global culture where everything, our cultures, our economies... KING: But you have the love of your country. I mean, you love your country, don't you?
CHOPRA: I love my country, but I am now looking at the world as my family, because if I become jingoistic and totally self-centered, that's where the problem is. Then I want to impose my values on the rest of the world. And that is where the perceived sense of injustice and the dark shadows and the ghost-filled attics of our dark self emerge and religion does the same thing, particularly fundamentalist religion has become idiotic, divisive and quarrelsome.
KING: You also urge people to become peace makers, give us that dot.com thing again.
CHOPRA: OK. It's peace is the way, globalcommunity.org, peace is the way, global community.org. And you can become a peacemaker and help create that critical mass that we're so looking for.
KING: When you look at England and Northern Ireland, Palestinians and Jews, doesn't that make you pessimistic?
CHOPRA: No. I think, you know, Northern Ireland and England have come a long way.
KING: But how long...
CHOPRA: It took, but it did happen, and Sri Lanka as you see now, it's coming to a resolution. I think we need a new generation of people who think differently, who are willing to go beyond ethnocentrism, racism, bigotry, hatred, prejudice and fundamental religion.
KING: You are an optimist?
CHOPRA: Well, there's no other choice Larry. I'm in the autumn of my life. I know I have a few years left. I want to see a better world for my children and for my grandchildren. And if I don't put my effort into this, nothing else will matter. I've spent my life doing things, but you know and partly were for me. And I can say comfortably, been there, done that. I want to, in the remaining years of my life, dedicate myself to a better world.
KING: Because the opposite of peace is idiotic, isn't it?
CHOPRA: The opposite of peace -- I mean we have to murder people to get our way. I mean can you imagine, we're living in the 21st century and we still have to murder people to get our way. And everybody does it. I mean you see the Hindus and Muslims. You see the Jews and Arabs. You see the Protestants and Catholics.
KING: Insane.
CHOPRA: It's total insanity. What we call normal is the psychosis of the collective so prevalent that we take it for granted.
KING: But it's built into us, isn't it? I mean... CHOPRA: The impulse is built in, but on the other hand, we're evolving creatures. Jonas Salk said the next phase of our evolution is meta-biological evolution, survival of the wisest, not survival of the fittest. He says that's the old paradigm. The new criteria is survival of the wisest. The wisest are those that are part of a mature eco- system where cooperation and not conflict is the solution.
KING: Do you ever get upset?
CHOPRA: No, not any more. I used to.
KING: How do you do that?
CHOPRA: Because I recognize that if I get upset, I only aggravate the problem and I don't want to aggravate the problem.
KING: But you had to learn that.
CHOPRA: I had to learn that. You have to learn these things. You have to learn what you put to change (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You learn what your priorities are and getting a little older helps, you know. Confronting your mortality and looking behind you and seeing that the prince of death is stalking you. I'm on death row. The only uncertainty is the method of execution and the length of reprieve. So I better make good use of my time.
KING: Do you believe there's something after this?
CHOPRA: I believe that consciousness survives physical death. I do believe that for every off there's an on and for every on, there's an off and that death makes life possible.
KING: So consciousness survives in what form?
CHOPRA: As a potential for cognition, for perception, for thought, for biological function. In biology, we have a term called apoptosis, which means programmed cellular death. And if you don't have that, you get cancer. Cancer is a vacation from death. And death is what makes life possible. If we didn't have death, the world would be mummified. It would be static. It would be sterile. There would be no freshness. We would all be doomed to eternal senility. Thank God for death. It makes life always fresh.
KING: For you, but not for me.
CHOPRA: Protons come and go. Molecules come and go. Atoms come and go. Tissues and organs come and go and intelligence -- the universe is constantly recycling and recreating itself.
KING: So you believe peace is possible.
CHOPRA: I believe that we have no choice. We risk our extinction or we can create a world where there will be peace and harmony and laughter and love, economic empowerment for the poor, social justice, a healthy ecology and resolution of conflict without murder.
KING: You're a good man, Deepak.
CHOPRA: Thanks, Larry.
KING: Deepak Chopra, the new book is "Peace Is the Way" and the global network of peacemakers of course and give me the --
CHOPRA: Peace is the way, globalcommunity.org and we'll actually turn (ph) you to all the peace organizations.
KING: Thank you Deepak.
CHOPRA: Thanks.
KING: Deepak Chopra, the book, Peace Is the Way." I'll be right back. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We welcome a good friend, Harvey Mackay to LARRY KING LIVE. He wrote one of the most famous business books ever written, more than a business book, might be called a crossover, "Swimming With the Sharks." He's one of the world's best selling motivational and business authors, recipient of the 2004 Horatio Alger Award and his new book, a terrific read, even if I'm just a part of it. "We Got Fired and It's the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Us." How did you come up with this idea?
HARVEY MACKAY, AUTHOR, "WE GOT FIRED": Well, for about 40 years, I've had an avocation Larry of helping other people with their careers, both young and old and I started to see a trend that everybody was landing on their feet. I started watching the newspapers, reading the newspapers, magazines, TV, famous people, landing on their feet after they've been fired. So there's been a national funeral out there the last three or four years. About four million people have lost their jobs. They've held those jobs at least three years, so I decided, as long as I had the format, I'd write about it.
KING: And you came up with this before the famous Trump line of "you're fired," right?
MACKAY: Yes, but I have to thank him very much for coming with "The Apprentice" because two years ago -- I've been working on the book for two years -- so I was about a year and a half ahead of him. And unbeknown to me, "The Apprentice" came out just out of nowhere, became in our culture, you're fired and of course I rode that wave and I'm very thankful for him.
KING: Now he's in the book too?
MACKAY: He's in the book. I called him up. I said, Donald, have you ever been fired? He said, are you kidding? I worked for my father. He never would have fired me. And I said, well then, how about giving me a chapter on how you fire and your philosophy about it. Very interesting to just to kind of paraphrase what he said. He said, it's not the people you fire who make your life miserable. It's the people you don't fire who make your life miserable.
KING: Why?
MACKAY: Very interesting.
KING: This runs concurrent with a lot of -- there's a lot of famous people in this book and a lot of people you write about, people like David Halberstam and Jeffrey Katzenberg and Walt Disney was fired. What do you think -- what happens to that person do you think, who excels after a disaster?
MACKAY: Well, they all have and there's some common denominators.
KING: What is that?
MACKAY: Number one, the moment you get fired, don't take it personally. That's a big time must.
KING: Hard not to do.
MACKAY: Number two, absolutely. You can't saw sawdust, which means you can't cry over spilled milk. Get on with your life. Even you in your interview said hey, don't hold grudges. Lou Holtz (ph) gets fired from Arkansas. The sun's going to come up tomorrow. You know, don't be bitter. Holtz, the king of the one-liners also said that if you're going to burn your bridges, you'd better be a darn good swimmer. So therefore you don't burn bridges. Number four, you get a kitchen cabinet. You rely upon people. Number five, 70 percent of all jobs come from networking, so therefore start building that network and you have to know that's how you're going to land on your feet.
KING: You think Harvey that it might even be fortunate to be fired?
MACKAY: Well, as far as these 20 famous people that I interviewed, plus 20 not so famous people that I interviewed, with the right attitude. You know, your attitude determines your altitude. And I'm of course an aphorism junkie but I have to end each chapter with one of those morals, and therefore I believe strongly in all those morals that are in the book. Yes, it can be a lemon in the lemonade, if you've got the right attitude. If you accept it right away and Mayor Michael Bloomberg, 1981, he told me in his office that he's fired, clearly out of the sky, unexpectedly, OK from Goldman Sachs. So he said, I'll get those guys. Tomorrow morning, tomorrow morning, I'm sorry, he was fired from Salomon Brothers, pardon me, Larry. Michael Bloomberg, fired from Salomon Brothers.
KING: Did pretty good.
MACKAY: And so now he said, I'll get those guys. Goldman Sachs will hire me. OK, tomorrow morning when they read it, the "New York Times," Goldman Sachs never called. What happened to him forms what I think is one of the finest companies in the history of our country, $3 billion in sales, $3 billion in sales, 6,000 employees, 126 countries piping financial information to. He also said to me and I'll never forget this, how bad are they going to be? OK, if you're looking at the right side of the grass. Michael Bloomberg.
KING: You're a successful businessman. You've had to fire people. Is there a secret to firing someone?
MACKAY: Well, this is interesting now. Trump also told me, Donald said this and this is the only thing I disagree with him on. He said that when you fire someone, it doesn't matter. He or she will -- these are his words in the book, will hate you the rest of your life. I think, I don't necessarily go along with that at all. I think you can be compassionate. I think you can be sympathetic. I think you can let them know that you really care about that person. You're willing to help. You've got a good memory. I mean I fired a secretary 35 years ago. She was in my office last week. I mean we're still friends. The job just got a little bit bigger than what her capacity was and we're still friends, so I think that there's different strokes for different folks. But I think you can be a human being.
KING: Can we learn from this or do you think that's an inborn thing? You either have it or you don't.
MACKAY: Jesse "The Body" Ventura, another chapter in the book. He said you're not a failure, OK, if you get fired. You're a failure if you fail to learn from that firing. So therefore he said there's no guarantees in life, no security in life. The day you get hired you should prepare to be fired. So yes, I think you can learn without question. Let's look at some stats. These are not typos. The average college graduate this coming June, he or she will have 12 to 14 different job changes in his or her life and three to five different career changes. Wow. So therefore, you have to be prepared. You have to be versatile. I love the story about Lou Holtz. He's 123 pounds, so skinny he can tread water in a test tube. He can't make the football team, but then he decides, I'll learn all 11 positions which he did do and then make the high school football team. That's what you should do if you're employed right now. Enhance your skills, widen your skills, increase the probability, if you do get fire, OK, you'll get a job.
KING: It's a terrific book. "We Got Fired and It's the Best Thing that Ever Happened to Us." My picture's on there. I'm in it. It is a wonderful read. He's the author of course of "Swim With the Sharks," one of the -- maybe one of the great selling books of all time.
MACKAY: Well, thank you. I'm proud of it.
KING: I'm proud to know you.
MACKAY: Thank you. Thank you Larry.
KING: Harvey Mackay. It's a terrific read, the book "We Got Fired and It's the Best Thing that Ever Happened to Us." We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE one of my favorite book and one of the great sports announcers ever -- Dick Enberg -- the Emmy Award-winning CBS sportscaster, author of a terrific new autobiographer, "Dick Enberg: Oh My!" co-written with Jim Perry.
Dick joins us from Pittsburgh. We broadcast last week's game between the Steelers and the Jets.
How did you come up with "Oh my!"?
DICK ENBERG, CBS SPORTSCASTER & AUTHOR: Well, Larry, it actually -- as your Midwestern audience would attest -- it's a common expression, and you'll hear it in public places. People will react in amazement or surprise, or even just acknowledgement, "Oh my," or "Oh, my!"
And when I became the new announcer for the Indiana University sports network -- their very first network -- I said, well, I'm doing Big 10 football and basketball. Now, I need a signature call.
And, of course, "Oh, holy cow," had been taken by Harry Caray, and "Oh, doctor," was Red Barber's, and Mel Allen had, "Well, how about that."
So, I tried "Oh my". And it has been a good friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ENBERG: He's got some (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and he throws. Intercepted. It's Reggie Tongue. The man from Anchorage, Alaska. And he's trying to take it the full distance.
Tongue has a treble (ph) touchdown. Oh, my!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENBERG: The guys in the college graduate dorm, after a couple of games said, "Hey, Enberg. Oh, my!"
And I thought, well, that's it. And it's been a good friend since 1957.
KING: You've touched so many bases. Why did you finally decide to write this?
ENBERG: Well, I thought about it for about 10 years. And, Larry, much like your books, there's so much to share.
And I've been rubbing shoulders -- now 50 years I've been a sportscaster -- and rubbing shoulders with greatness. And the life lessons that I've learned, the humor, the craziness of the business.
Sitting next to hall of fame colleagues in the broadcast booth, from Don Drysdale to Al McGuire and Billy Packard, Dan Dierdorf, Merlin Olsen, Pat Hayden, John McEnroe, Chris Evert, Johnny Miller -- just those individuals alone have taught me so much and have allowed my life to be so bright, I wanted to share it with a bigger audience.
KING: Also, great pictures. And I love your little notes by the pictures. I thought that was novel and unique.
ENBERG: Thank you. Thank you.
Well, how about the sauna interview? Have you ever conducted -- I know you've talked to more people than any of the rest of us put together.
But I actually, in 1983, had to conduct an interview in a sauna in Helsinki. It was the only way ...
KING: I never did that.
ENBERG: ... that this -- the medical doctor would conduct the interview. He said, you've got to take your clothes off. The sauna is sacred in Finland. And that's the only way I'll do it.
KING: Down to the peg, is baseball your favorite sport to do?
ENBERG: It's the most challenging, and it's the most difficult of all the sports, Larry.
And Ted Williams, who was my idol -- and, of course, whenever Ted asked you a question, he already knew the answer. And he came barking in one day to me.
"So, OK, Enberg. What is the toughest game to call?"
And I said, "Ted, it's your game. It's baseball."
A three-hour game, and within that three hours, you may only have 10, 12 interesting plays. What do you do with the rest of the time?
I mean, anyone can say groundball to short, throw the first two out. But what do you -- when the pitcher won't throw the ball, how do you fill in that time? How do you paint the total picture? How do you build the drama of a no-hit, no-run game?
And then, you have 200 games a year, when you count spring training.
So, baseball is the most demanding. And I think the real test of play-by-play talent is measured in the game of baseball. If you can do baseball well, you can call any game.
KING: And you were one of the best.
Speaking of that, what do you think of the new steroid policy?
ENBERG: I think it could have been tougher. At least they're taking steps forward. It took them long enough.
I applaud the fact that there are going to be more penalties. I'd like to see it even stiffer.
KING: How about the basketball brawl incident? You've done a lot of basketball. ENBERG: Well, I think that athletes have to look at the arena -- not only basketball, but all sports -- as having an invisible barbed wire around the arena. And they just can't pass through that.
And there are so many more good guys and great athletes that are good than there are the bad apples. And I think that the players themselves, they have to be more responsible in policing their own.
And in turn, I think security at the various arenas has to be tightened.
I don't want to be sitting -- nor do you, nor does anyone in your audience -- next to some jerk who wants to shout vulgarities and profanities around you and your family. Those individuals have to be shown to the exits, as well.
It's a difficult problem. But I think the athletes, ultimately, no matter how ugly the audience may be, are the ones who have to take care of themselves.
KING: Dick, sports and showmanship and show, is it this thin line -- we take the thing that Randy Moss did?
ENBERG: Well, ...
KING: They fine them for it, yet people -- don't they like to see celebrations? And where do you -- is it a -- when do you go over the line?
ENBERG: Well, I think good taste is the measure. I don't think that was in particularly good taste.
I don't mind the dancing.
You know, think how far we've come, Larry. In 1988, just 16 years ago, Ickey Woods, remember, did that Ickey shuffle. And the NFL was appalled, and they said, you can't do that unless you go to the sidelines. Then you can do your dance. Otherwise, we're going to penalize you. And that was just a silly little hip-hop dance.
I think that -- it must be interesting what some of these athletes do, rehearsing in their bathroom, to try to come up with something that's unique and different.
I think good taste should be the measure, and I'm not sure that all the athletes are capable of exercising that.
KING: What was the idea of having a DVD along with the book?
ENBERG: That's something new. The sports publishing company in Illinois that published the book thought that by doing a three-hour interview with me, expanding upon some of the vignettes that I share in the book, would help the audience to be able to even appreciate more the stories that they've already read in the book.
It's a new idea. And so far, the response has been very solid. The book is within the top five biographies currently being sold, and we've only been out a little over a month. So, I'm very pleased at the reaction.
KING: Well, I'm halfway through it. It's a terrific read.
And I know of your love for horseracing, a love we share. Are you concerned about dwindling attendance and the need for slot machines at tracks?
ENBERG: And apparently, Larry, that's the only way that the sport is going to survive. And it saddens me.
More people seem to be going to off-track betting than going to the great theaters for horseracing -- San Anita, Hollywood Park out in the West Coast.
I guess Del Mar and Saratoga are the two tracks that still flourish in the popularity of fans visiting, because they're summer resort, high energy, happy tourist times.
But the sport needs some direction. I've always contended that they have individual duchies. Every racetrack is its own entity.
And that somehow, all of them have to gather together and combine their efforts to try to sell the sport. It's a magnificent sport. We both love it. And television does a good job of covering it.
But I think that they're not a unified operation in terms of addressing it to the public.
KING: Dick, it's always wonderful to see you. I'll see you at the Kiddy Cord -- Kid's Corps dinner down in San Diego. And I salute you on a terrific book.
ENBERG: Thanks, Larry. I appreciate it. And keep up all your generosity to charity.
KING: Dick Enberg, the Emmy Award-winning CBS sportscaster. One of the best ever, oh, my.
"Dick Enberg: Oh My!" is the title of the book. It's available everywhere books are sold.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We now welcome another extraordinary friend. The number one bestselling author of "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People."
The new book is "The 8th Habit: From Effectiveness to Greatness." It includes a bonus DVD of 16 inspirational films.
What took so long between habits, Steve?
STEPHEN R. COVEY, AUTHOR, "THE 7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE": Well, I started to discover the movement from the Industrial Age to the Information Age, where most people literally have lost their voice.
And there's so much job alienation and so much, what you might call, the loss of the feeling of personal significance and greatness inside the person.
KING: So, you missed that 15 years ago with the seventh habit? Or is this revolutionary?
COVEY: Well, that was when we were still in the Industrial Age. And most of the products and services, the value added to them came from manual work. Today, most of it comes from knowledge work.
And ...
KING: Yes.
COVEY: ... so, we have to focus so much more on the development of people.
KING: Terrific book.
And you write that the eighth habit, basically, is to find your voice and inspire others to find theirs.
What do you mean?
COVEY: Well, find your voice basically means that there are four parts to our nature: our body, our mind, our heart and our spirit. And they're reflected in basically answering these questions.
What is my talent? What am I really good at? In other words, what do I love doing, my passion?
What is it that I -- what need can I serve that really adds value and can maybe drive an economic engine?
And fourth, what does my conscience tell me that I should do?
And the more people combine all four of those, the more they come up with the feeling of what their voice is. It's like a compass.
This watch is a compass and a clock. And most people drive their life by the clock.
The key is the sense of direction, the sense of what is your unique genius, your talent, your voice.
That's what you represent, Larry.
KING: Yes, but the question is, does it come naturally, or is it teachable?
COVEY: Well, I think that often it comes from other people affirming that you have these kind of capacities and talents. In fact, I can ask almost any audience, how many of you have achieved your level of success partly, or even largely, because someone believed in you when you didn't believe in yourself?
And you'll find that two-thirds of the people will raise their hand. And they become very emotional as they describe how other people literally affirmed them so deeply and powerfully, that it helped them find their voice.
KING: The other thing, Steve, that you're a little idealistic, a little moralistic in times that are basically confusing and more stressful.
COVEY: I think that this is so true about our times. And it's a changing time.
But unless we build our lives on that which has really changed less, we live in a world of insecurity and confusion.
That's why I focus so heavily on the importance of living by principles that are universal and timeless.
And the finding of one's voice is based on development of those principles inside your own nature, so that you literally feel your security within, and you're no longer a function of all of the relativistic and confusing reality that is out there.
KING: Can some of the principles be harsh?
COVEY: Well, integrity is sometimes a harsh principle. Sometimes being truly fair and just. To be kind and respectful to someone who is unkind to you is a hard thing to do.
But the more you get your security from within rather than from without, the more you'll find that you have power and you have what I call moral authority.
In fact, my definition of leadership is, communicating to other people their worth and their potential so clearly they come to see it in themselves.
And I think that's a great definition also of being a parent.
You're a parent. And I know you want to build in your own children the sense of their worth and their potential, to where they come to deeply feel it inside themselves.
KING: Is greatness achievable by many more people than have it?
COVEY: Oh, absolutely. In fact, greatness -- if you define it not as prestige and money and reputation, but more as character and contribution -- you're constantly interviewing people almost on a daily basis, of people that have really made great contributions, and that are real heroes to other people and inspire other people.
Many of them are young children like that Alex that you interviewed and you enjoyed, ...
KING: Yes.
COVEY: ... and Scott.
I mean, this is an eight-year-old kid. Alex was a genius poet at the age of 14. These people have found their voice.
You take a person like Oprah, or someone that clearly has found their voice -- and your own show where you have found your voice -- is a good illustration of someone that just brings together all of these different capacities and this passion.
And their conscience drives them to it.
KING: You know, Steve, I don't know of any person who, through speaking and writing, has helped more people than you. And I salute you.
COVEY: Well, I appreciate that, Larry, very much.
I think that the DVDs in here help visual learners, because they have stories in them. And a lot of them have won national records and awards for their quality and their excellence.
And they immediately communicate the essence of each chapter.
KING: Steve, I thank you very much. Steve Covey. The book -- the new one -- is "The 8th Habit: From Effectiveness to Greatness." The book includes that bonus DVD.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: It's now a great honor to welcome Renee Fleming to LARRY KING LIVE. The internationally renowned vocal artist acclaimed as the gold standard of soprano sound.
The Grammy-winning recording artist. Her latest CD is the "Arias of Handel."
She's the author of "The Inner Voice: The Making of a Singer." She's in San Francisco.
Renee, what do you mean by the "inner voice"?
RENEE FLEMING, WORLD-RENOWNED OPERA STAR: Well, the inner voice actually covers a wide spectrum of issues, from intuition that guides me -- and guides all of us -- to the part that I -- the way in which I can hear my own singing, which is through the inner ear, in a sense. And one has to imagine it.
But the inner voice, as a concept, it's always appealed to me in a tremendous way.
KING: A very candid book. And did singing come easily to you?
FLEMING: No, it really didn't. I mean, obviously, I grew up in a musical family, and we all sing.
But the kind of singing I do is so cultivated and so extreme -- I call it extreme singing, in a way -- because we're not amplified. We have to achieve the complete range of possibilities for the human voice.
And it took a lot of years of study and a lot of hard work.
KING: Why did you write the book?
FLEMING: Well, I wrote the book because I wanted to kind of provide for young singers the book I would have adored having when I was a Juilliard student.
And I also wanted to speak to the audience, and to people who come up to me after a performance and say, boy, you were so lucky to be born with that gift.
And they don't have a clue what comes between the gift -- the voice itself -- and being on stage.
So, it spells it out, really, for people.
KING: You've said, Renee, that you have a moral responsibility to reach as many people as possible with your voice.
Why a moral responsibility?
FLEMING: Well, you know, it's not -- it's not my voice, per se. It's classical music.
And with shrinking accessibility for classical music, both through schools and through the media, the wider an audience I can reach, and the more people who can be exposed to it, the more possibility we have not only for performing, but for bringing this, the greatest music in history, to the public.
KING: Why don't more people appreciate it?
FLEMING: Well, it's a -- it's definitely an acquired taste. And it's one which requires a little bit of education, much like wine, jazz -- a lot of the finer things in life.
Great literature, poetry require a desire on the part of the person, of the audience member, to expand, to learn, to grow and to not necessarily take the easiest route.
That said, I think opera is tremendously accessible in certain ways.
KING: You were an ugly duckling?
FLEMING: Oh, yes. KING: Yes, like, what did you look like as a kid?
FLEMING: Oh, God. You know, it was painful. I wore the same three-inch-wide, pink headband every single day.
You know, I had corrective shoes and bad skin. And I didn't know how to dress.
And I just -- oh, God, I wanted to -- I wanted to fly. I really wanted to be something else.
KING: You are not a diva, are you.
FLEMING: Well, I hope I'm a diva on stage. You know, diva means goddess.
And it's the kind of inspiration that I hope is transmitted to the audience through, not just my voice, but how I express the music.
But every day -- no, I'm definitely not a diva.
KING: It's -- it may mean goddess, but it's come to be a demeaning word, right? She's a diva.
FLEMING: Yes.
KING: Right?
FLEMING: Well, it's temperamental. It has a -- it has almost a better known negative connotation now than a positive one.
It means temperamental. It means bad behavior, backstage antics, jealousy, scandal. Yes.
KING: In the opera setting, how important -- we talk about the horse and the jockey -- is the orchestra?
FLEMING: Oh, the orchestra is tremendously important. They provide the support for us. They provide the entire musical underpinning.
And the opera -- see, the opera -- I think it's the greatest art form, because there's dance, there's the visual, there's artistic, there's acting, theater, orchestra.
And the orchestra really -- we are kind of the icing on the cake, and they're the cake.
KING: Can a great orchestra help an average singer? And can a great singer help an average orchestra?
FLEMING: Definitely. Definitely.
KING: Both are truth.
FLEMING: Yes, I think -- I think, an average singer, because the singer is the soloist, can't be so helped by an orchestra. But there's no question, in the other sense, that we can all work together and collaborate.
It's an ensemble effort, in a way.
KING: How often do you have to work with your voice?
FLEMING: Well, I sing all the time, because I work all the time.
KING: I mean, you do exercises daily, too?
FLEMING: Almost. Almost every day. I mean, it's a little bit like dancing.
The exception is that, because it's -- I use my voice in speech constantly.
I find that if I take two weeks off, I'm actually in better form. Whereas dancers tell me that after two weeks, they have to really get back in shape.
KING: Do you often take two weeks off?
FLEMING: No. I should.
KING: You like working.
FLEMING: I do. I love it. I love what I do.
I've definitely found my voice.
KING: Oh, boy.
Was Juilliard all it's cracked up to be?
FLEMING: Oh, yes. Well, when I was at Juilliard, I was in a program that was post-graduate. And to have all of that instruction without -- to have it be subsidized, that was the key for me.
The top instruction -- my -- the greatest voice teacher I worked with for 16 years.
And it's at Lincoln Center. So, on my nights off I could cross the street and get a standing-room ticket for $8 at the Met. I think they're $10 now.
KING: You were also a Fulbright scholar, right?
FLEMING: Right. I had a terrific education.
KING: Where did you go, Germany?
FLEMING: Germany, for a year.
KING: Did you sing there? FLEMING: I sang a little bit, but I mostly studied. I really wasn't in any shape then to be singing professionally. And people let me know that real quick.
KING: Do you know -- do you know -- many famous singers and musicians have told me, they know in the first five minutes how they're going to do.
FLEMING: Oh, yes.
KING: Do you know?
FLEMING: Somebody told me recently that they know before the performance ever begins, days before.
I have a different performance ritual. And I suffer tremendously in advance in exchange for being able to do well.
So, we all have our way.
KING: So, or you go through pains.
FLEMING: Oh, just misery.
KING: Is it also true that -- Isaac Stern once told me, on nights he plays that he thinks the worst, he gets the most standing ovations.
FLEMING: That is true. I noticed that in auditioning. When I thought I was horrible, I would get engaged. And when I thought I was great, people didn't appreciate it.
Really, I've learned through experience we're not the best judge of how we're doing.
KING: Do you have a favorite role?
FLEMING: I don't. I have -- I'm such a gray person. Ah, I'm wearing gray.
I have several things that I really love, from Strauss to Verdi to Mozart. And there are so many wonderful composers. Variety is really the thing I love most.
KING: Can't wait to meet you in person.
FLEMING: Me, too. Thank you.
KING: Renee Fleming. The book is "The Inner Voice: The Making of a Singer." An extraordinary talent.
We thank her very much for joining us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Thanks very much for joining us on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Hope you enjoyed meeting these fantastic people. All interesting, all cultured, all successful. All pretty special.
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