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CNN Larry King Live
Encore Presentation: Interview With Dr. Phil McGraw
Aired May 08, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Dr. Phil McGraw. His thoughts on the runaway bride story, the Michael Jackson child molestation trial. His big Pat O'Brien post-rehab interview. Some of your issues too. Dr. Phil, keeping it real for the hour with your calls, next, on LARRY KING LIVE.
He's host of the extraordinarily successful syndicated show "Dr. Phil," the author of the number one "New York Times" best seller, most recent book "Family First: Your Step-by-Step Plan for Creating a Phenomenal Family." And he's host of the new Dr. Phil prime-time special -- there you see the cover of the book -- "Behind the Headlines." It will air this Wednesday night at 8:00 Eastern on CBS. And it deals with the recovery, hopeful recovery of Pat O'Brien, the noted broadcaster who has come back.
Now, there was a big story in "The New York Times" today, so let's deal with that off the top. The story, despite denials from all the people involved, seemed to say that you work for the same people as Pat O'Brien works for, they also own CBS, they own Paramount, they syndicate you, they syndicate him. This was all a deal.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TV TALK SHOW HOST: What kind of deal?
KING: That you would promote him, and he gets to have his return to the air promoted, that it's all inner company promotion?
MCGRAW: I guess there's just a lot of paranoia out there. Look, I do my show, and I don't know anybody at Viacom. I don't know those people. We're -- I guess I'm on the Paramount lot, so that gives them a hook to talk about that.
But let me tell you why I'm doing this interview. I don't care whether he's with CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN or whoever. As you know, a big signature of our season has been drugs and alcohol. I've probably done 20 shows on that this year. We put a number of people into rehab and recovery.
When this story broke on Pat, my producers, Carla Pennington, my executive producer, came and said, you know, this could be a great story for us to do, to raise the awareness again about alcohol and drugs. Because we've done so much on it this year.
So we contacted them. And he could either sit down with just a generic interviewer, who is going to do a voyeuristic version, like tell us what happened, this or that, or he can sit down with me, who deals with this in a content-specific way. This is my content. This is who I am. This is what I do, human functioning, and drug and alcohol addictions are a big part of that. So my...
KING: That was the pitch.
MCGRAW: That was the pitch. We said, look, if you really want to really get real with this, if you want to deal with this straight up and be accountable for it, then talk to somebody who knows what's going on, somebody that knows what this is about, that can ask you the hard questions and steer you in the right direction.
KING: So what did you make of that "Times" story when you saw it?
MCGRAW: I thought it was a pretty good story. I thought they asked fair questions about it. I think the fact that I have -- I don't work for Viacom, I don't work for CBS. I work for myself. I mean, this is my show. I do it; Oprah and I are partners. And I don't work for any of those people. But I think they're fair questions to ask that.
But you can't watch this interview and think that this was a promotional thing. I think when you watch this interview, you're going to see that he got the hardest line questions from me that he would have gotten from anybody in the country. And you know I don't throw soft softballs.
KING: I had dinner with Sumner Redstone, who's chairman of Viacom. You ought to meet him; he's a nice guy. Had dinner with him Saturday night. He didn't know anything about this. At that level, they don't know.
MCGRAW: And at this level, I'm just ...
KING: Our level.
MCGRAW: I'm just in the trenches doing shows every day. I don't know about the corporate politics.
KING: Another question raised. Why would someone come out of rehab and go right to an interview?
MCGRAW: Well, because I think he wants to get back to his life. And his life is being on the air. And I don't really think he can go on the air until he answers questions about his conduct, his values and his beliefs. I think he said and did some things that it wasn't just, gee, they found him drunk one night. I think he did some things that are highly offensive to the sensibilities of most Americans in general and women in particular. And to just go back on the air and say, well, I've been gone a while but glad to be back, I think people will say, well, wait a minute. What about all this stuff? You said this, you did this, you evidenced this. What about all that? I think people want those questions asked. And I think he has to answer them before he can go back on the air.
KING: Or he could have chosen to take some time off and not go back on the air.
MCGRAW: He could have done that, but he's been off now about two months
KING: Now, how did you handle the delicate matter of -- did you play any of these tapes of what he said to people on the phone, to women?
MCGRAW: Absolutely. Look...
KING: We don't have any advanced previews from the show. They're being embargoed. But you played some of the tapes.
MCGRAW: I did.
KING: This will be the first time they're played on national television?
MCGRAW: Well, I think there have been snippets here and there. And these are very graphic tapes. And they have very vulgar and inappropriate language in them. They are properly sanitized for being on the network. I play them enough so people get a flavor for what went on, but not so much as to sensationalize the story. And I had absolutely no requests from Pat or his lawyer or publicist about, don't go here, don't go there, because I told him, no deals. I'll either interview him, or I won't.
KING: How well did he handle himself?
MCGRAW: I thought he handled himself in a very sincere fashion. Look, I have said ...
KING: It must be embarrassing.
MCGRAW: He's humiliated about it. It's a horrifying thing to be involved in. I've said to people on the show, if your spouse, for example, is addicted to drugs or alcohol, you're not dealing with your spouse; you're dealing with the chemicals. They change you. They alter your personality, your mind. And I think that Pat certainly had a problem with addiction to alcohol and drugs. It changed who he was. A lot of these things he didn't remember anything about at all.
KING: The things on the tape?
MCGRAW: The things on the tape. And I think that's sincere. But he's stepping up. And I said it to him in the interview, I said, if you're big enough to do it, you're big enough to stand up and answer questions about it.
KING: What's the connection between alcohol and making perverse sexual innuendo -- not innuendo, direct sexual come-on tapes. What's that connection?
MCGRAW: Well, it's both drugs and alcohol. But specifically about alcohol, alcohol is a depressant. And it's a depressant in that it depresses your inhibition centers. And so things that, if you were sober, you would say, not a good idea -- that part of your brain is turned off, where, hey, you know, whatever. You just kind of go with the flow. You don't have that little man in there that says, stop, stop, stop, don't do this.
So I think it just absolutely washed away his inhibitions. I think his reasoning power was completely altered. He was in an altered state of consciousness by the combination of the drugs and alcohol. And he was reacting to the visual stimuli of a woman.
KING: So all the phone instances were while under some influence?
MCGRAW: And it's obvious when you listen to them.
KING: It is. There's nothing like a sober person.
MCGRAW: No, it's not. And he doesn't sound like horribly slurry drunk, but I think it was a combination of the alcohol. And you can hear the repetition in there. It's not the Pat that you know. You know Pat, right?
KING: I know and like him.
MCGRAW: And I don't know him very well...
KING: I like him very much.
MCGRAW: ... but I've watched him on the air, and it's certainly not the person you hear on the air.
KING: How well does -- what happens when alcohol and drugs -- are we talking about cocaine, or what?
MCGRAW: Cocaine.
KING: When alcohol and cocaine mix, what happens?
MCGRAW: Well, they potentiate one another. When you -- you know, they often tell you, if you're taking pain medications or whatever, don't drink alcohol. It's because it potentiates it. It takes its power from maybe a level two -- it might go to a level 20 or it might go to a level 200. It potentiates the drug. And that's what happens when you get the dangerous combination with the interactive effects between drugs and alcohol. And this all culminated in that one night for Pat. But his problem, he didn't just have a bad weekend, this had become a lifestyle for Pat. It got the best of him. He is an alcoholic.
KING: How has it affected his relationship with the very nice young lady?
MCGRAW: Well, you know, I think that it has put major obstacles in his life in all areas. In terms of his children, his professional relationships, his friendships. Everybody involved. But I am so impressed that he had the willingness and ability to step up and own this and be accountable for it. Now, America can watch and make up their mind about whether he's getting real about this or not.
KING: We'll be right back with Dr. Phil. It airs Wednesday night on CBS. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: You have no fence that keeps another woman out of your relationship. You have no boundary that says, mother, I've got to do this over here on my own. We are the mother and father now. Does that mean that you can't and shouldn't play an important role in their life? Absolutely not. There is no greater gift to those children than to crawl up in grandma's lap. But you've got to put up some boundaries. And if you're seeing -- if you walk in there and say, oh, she's messy, oh, she's gaining weight, oh, she's this, oh, she's that -- you know what you need to do? Stuff that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Dr. Phil.
I also understand he'll be on your syndicated show this week with an audience.
MCGRAW: Yes. First time in front of an audience. And we're doing a show -- again, as I say, we dedicated a lot of this year to drug and alcohol addiction and the rehabilitation and recovery process. We're doing a show about life after rehab, where we have some people on that are re-merging into the real world from the rehab centers. And we thought that would be a really good place for Pat to weigh in.
KING: How well will he come back? We have embarrassing stories about Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh and Martha Stewart goes to jail. Limbaugh's still on the air, O'Reilly's still on the air, Martha's stronger than ever. Will Pat come back?
MCGRAW: Well, I believe absolutely yes, and I'll tell you why. Because he's being honest about it. He's stepping up and owning this. Pat has a 30-year history of being an excellent journalist, excellent reporter and broadcaster. And I think -- I think he's earned a second look.
KING: Marv Albert came back.
MCGRAW: And I think...
KING: You think he'll get it?
MCGRAW: I do. I think he will get his second chance. I think he deserves it because he's owned this and been honest about it. And I mean, this guy worked so hard for so long and done such a good job. And I think America is a forgiving country.
KING: In your expertise, has he recovered? MCGRAW: Absolutely not. I think it's a process. And I think...
KING: He could go back tonight?
MCGRAW: There's an 85 percent failure rate among those that go to alcohol rehabilitation and drug rehabilitation.
KING: So the odds are he will go back?
MCGRAW: The odds are that he will go back. But let me say this, the people that wind up in the 15 percent that maintain sobriety across a period of time don't get there by accident. It is not just luck of the draw. It is those who recognize, number one, you were using the alcohol and drugs as a coping mechanism. Now we take that away, you better put something in its place. Those problems still exist. The anxiety, the nervousness, the depression, the insecurity, whatever it is, he has to come with new constructively to handle that. You don't just white knuckle your way though after you have gotten off of the toxic substances. You have to put in an after-care program that supports your sobriety. You can't go back to the same friends, the same environment, the same conduct, the same behavior, you got to change everything.
KING: He's going to the same business, the same show, the same producers, the same people around him. One would assume it's high risk.
MCGRAW: I think Pat hid most of this inappropriate behavior from those that he worked with. I don't think that was the problem. I think it was when he got away from that that he spun out of control. Most people, like you, who knew him, had no idea, correct?
KING: Paula Zahn just said before we went on, she worked with him for year, never had an idea.
MCGRAW: Now, see that's not the problem. I think the problem is what happens when you're away from those people and who will step up and hold you accountable. What I've seen Pat do, is I've seen him put important elements of programming himself to remain sober in place from the time he has left going forward. He's got sobriety partners. He's going to a meeting today in the 12-step program, which I'm a huge fan of, by the way. He's involved in an outpatient therapy program. He's getting individual counseling. He's doing everything he needs to, A, be held accountable, and, B, grow past the need for these substances.
KING: His show, of course, is a show about other people. Should he discuss any of this on his own show? What would you recommend?
MCGRAW: I would recommend that he not ignore it. I would recommend that he step up and say, look, it's no secret I became a story and I've been gone. And I trust that you watched what was on the air last night with the special.
KING: He comes back on Thursday. MCGRAW: The next day. The show airs Wednesday, he goes back on the air Thursday. I think he needs to acknowledge that and invite everybody out there to, A, forgive him, and, B, keep a close eye on him.
KING: Does it bother you that there's also a maudlin aspect? There will be great interest in this because of this. Because it is what it is.
MCGRAW: You know what I think, I think the fact that Pat O'Brien is such a high profile personality that it draws a lot of attention to alcohol and drug addiction. There are so many people out there right now who are living with addicts or who are addicts or they're living with alcoholics or they are alcoholics, that this will raise the awareness where they say, you know what? They're right. I need to get help. I need to get my wife or my husband help. I think sometimes -- I'm not saying it's worth it to Pat, but I think he's a good teaching tool. He's a good poster boy, a good bell cow for this. So if it raises awareness and causes other people to get help, it's a silver lining.
KING: It airs Wednesday night. Behind the headlines, a prime special. There will be other. In fact, we'll show a clip from another one, not the one coming up Wednesday.
MCGRAW: Let me say this. I had a -- I don't know Pat O'Brien. I've kind of seen him around. Our kids go to the same school. I probably spent less than 15 minutes in my whole life with Pat O'Brien before this interview. I had a pretty good opinion of him going in. I have to say I had a better opinion coming, than I did going in.
KING: We'll be right back with more right after this. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: You were not assigned to be aggressive when you were on the show. You chose that. You said this is the way for me to get camera time. I'm going to be controversial, correct?
OMAROSA MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: That's correct.
MCGRAW: OK. Then how can you go on there saying the first one, you set that tone. You did it, it worked, and now you're criticizing them for what you chose to do? I don't get that.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: Yes, I was smart enough to calculate and know that.
MCGRAW: Then why complain about it now? If you knew then what you know now, would you have done "The Apprentice"?
DONALD TRUMP, "APPRENTICE": The answer is absolutely yes.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: Yes.
TRUMP: I'd love to have you back.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: I'd love to come back.
TRUMP: Then I could say to her again, Dr. Phil -- Omarosa, you're fired.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: You're fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It absolutely is a cult. They use brain washing. They use terror.
MCGRAW: Last year 16-year-old Fawn Broadbent (ph) and Fawn Holm escaped the only home they've ever known.
FAWN HOLM: I was born in Colorado city. I was taught that people from outside were not to be trusted and not to talk to them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They'd teach you that men are higher than women. Women should bow to them
MCGRAW: Why did you want to be here today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to know if I'm really going to go to hell.
MCGRAW: I'm no preacher, but let me tell you what I do know. God is a loving god. This idea that, if you assert this free will, that you will forever burn in hell, is just simply not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That was one kind of bride. What do you make of this other bride story, which I'm trying to figure out is a story -- why?
MCGRAW: Well, you know, I guess the story is that she put her family and the police and everybody that knew her through this horrible belief that she had been abducted, and therefore possibly killed, raped...
KING: Course, there's runaway brides all the time.
MCGRAW: Why, sure, there's runaway brides all the time. But, I mean, she didn't just say never mind and run off, she faked her own abduction. And, you know, who knows? And I've watched this, just like you and everybody else, and I've watched her fiance. And -- all I can give an opinion.
KING: That's all I'm asking.
MCGRAW: But, he didn't look very upset to me. I mean, I would have been more upset than that if somebody had abducted Robin. But -- and so I don't know if the full story's known yet or something. Was this a prank? Did he know something about it? I don't know that he did. I'm not saying that he did. But boy, it sure raises a lot of questions in my mind why somebody would want to do that. If you don't want to get married, don't get married, but don't put your family through that.
KING: You're not a lawyer -- do you think there are charges coming here? They're talking about it.
MCGRAW: Well, it seemed to me there would be. I mean, as a taxpayer, I'd kind of like to have her accountable for that, I guess. Add up all the money that was spent looking for her and let her work that off for a while. Seems to me that's just a complete and utter -- we've got enough legitimate abductions, legitimate problems, legitimate need for police power, to not be chasing her around because she doesn't want to marry this guy. I mean, so, don't marry him, but don't...
KING: If he were troubled, how would you counsel him? He's publicly humiliated.
MCGRAW: I'm counsel him to get another bride. I think he -- I would really have problems with this woman if I was him, just her judgment and her insensitivity to what was going on. That would really, really bother me, for him. You know, if he truly didn't know anything about this, I think this would create serious, serious doubts on my part, if I were him.
KING: We're not going to ever judge the outcome of a trial before it's over, but what's your read on the person that is Michael Jackson? Forgetting -- I'm not going to make a judgment if he's a predator of children and the like.
MCGRAW: You're really jumping around tonight. This is Larry King potpourri. I'm everywhere.
KING: Hey, I've been on this show. What -- is he a man-child?
MCGRAW: Listen, you're right. As you know, I worked as a litigation consultant for 15 years, and I know that what the public hears and what the jury hears are often two different things, and you can't prejudge that. The only thing that I can rely on is just the words I've heard come out of his mouth personally and the conduct that I've seen from him, personally, like in the two-hour special and that sort of thing.
Very disturbing. Very, very disturbing. I mean, he says I'm sleeping in beds with these young boys. and they're kind of hanging on each other in the interview and stuff. That's inappropriate -- if that's all that ever happened, that's inappropriate. So, you know, that's very concerning.
KING: What's your read on what would lead someone to do that? Let's say he weren't a predator. You say it is still inappropriate, right? MCGRAW: It is inappropriate. I mean, I think anybody with any common sense would look at this and say, a grown man, not a family person, not somebody that has a relationship, sleeping in beds with young boys and that sort of thing, is just simply not a healthy thing to do. And so I think that's inappropriate. But what we know about sexual predators is that they typically are so inferior in their feelings about themselves, that they have such low self-esteem, such low confidence, that they don't feel equal to interacting with an adult, someone their own age. They can only feel a sense of adequacy with someone that's much younger, much less powerful, much less equipped mentally, physically, emotionally, and so they feel safer.
KING: Why is it called incurable?
MCGRAW: Just because, based on statistics, they just don't seem to get better. I mean, the average predator, by the time they have been caught, have molested an average of 117 victims, for every predator. By the time they get caught, it averages 117 victims. Their reoffense rate is extremely high, because they've learned this pattern, and many of them have been abused themselves early on. Those wounds have never been healed. They get into this pattern of gratification by interacting with these children, and they never are able to learn the adequacy to handle it.
You've seen chemical castrations where they give them medications to lower the testosterone levels et cetera, et cetera, but it doesn't -- it doesn't make a difference.
KING: We'll take a break. Other topics to cover, other specials he's going to do and your phone calls. Dr. Phil is our guest. This special airs Wednesday night. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does a father do when he hears that your daughter's been touched sexually by your own son?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just sobbed. Our worst nightmare had come true. Since we've been home, Macai (ph) is a hot button issue for Brad and I. A few days after Macai was in treatment he called the house. His father was livid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were having this discussion like nothing had happened. It made me sick to my stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know I need boundaries, but I don't think a mother can have too much love for her children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know she did not take this as I'm helping her out. She's going to take this as I can't run my own house. I need to let them run their own house.
MCGRAW: And their own marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And their own marriage.
MCGRAW: He shouldn't be coming to you with the things that he talks to you about. You say, I don't want him to. But you don't tell him to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And who else is he going to go to but his mom.
MCGRAW: His wife! You're not qualified to give advice to these people. You've got a dog in the fight, you can't be objective. They need to work this out together. And you know what, they just might do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Early we showed a clip about brainwashed brides. What was that about?
MCGRAW: Well...
KING: Is that a coming show?
MCGRAW: It is. This show airs tomorrow. And we got contacted by some young women -- I mean, 14, 15-year-old women, that are involved in a cult in Colorado City, Utah. This FLDS Cult. And these young girls are forced into marriage with men in this church, this cult, at like 13, 14, 15 years of age. They've got 40 or 50 sisters. These men have multiple wives, anywhere from five, six, seven up to 10 or 12 the different wives. And they brainwash these girls into thinking this is appropriate. And force them into marriage so they can start having children. And they have all these multiple wives. There are laws against this.
KING: Have there been massive arrests?
MCGRAW: There have not been.
KING: Explain that.
MCGRAW: Well, what we're doing in brainwashed brides is finding out first, what's happened? There are young men in the town. It seems that they run them off. That they get rid of them. They cast them out of the town, so these girls are available to marry these older men. They're 40 and 50 years old marrying these 14-year-old girls right here in America. And these two girls escaped.
KING: Is this the old Mormon.
MCGRAW: I think a long, long time ago, may have been connected with the Mormon Church.
KING: This is not... MCGRAW: The Mormon Church is very clear about this. They do not endorse this. They are not involved with this in anyway. They think it's inappropriate and they want nothing to do with it, from what I understand. But yet, they have a leader there. And so these two girls escaped. They got into an underground pipeline to get out of this, because the police department in the city is part of the cult. And so they run them down and bring them back.
The police departments?
MCGRAW: Yes. And so we've got them on the show and we're talking to them and trying to help them. Because now they're saying, I'm out. What do I do? This is the only life they've ever known. They've been totally brainwashed.
KING: This should be a major story.
MCGRAW: It is a major story. And we're doing a follow-up on it, soon, where my son Jay who works with his son, has actually gone into the town and talked to the mayor of the town, the police there, the attorney general of Utah. Find out, you know, what's going on here? Why aren't people -- very disturbing show. Right here in America. And this is a compelling, compelling story.
KING: There's another prime time special coming in this series. This one is May 24, and we're going to show a clip from it...
MCGRAW: May 20.
KING: May 20. A registered nurse on the job. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I work in a state alcohol and drug rehab.
MCGRAW: So you talk to people about how to stay clean and sober and you talk to them about how to handle those urges and how to make the right choices in their life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MCGRAW: Minutes after you shot up in a closet at work?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
MCGRAW: You're a junkie. You're a junkie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know.
MCGRAW: A lot of these people are homeless. And they're just really kind of downtrodden it's very sad. There's no difference between you and them. You're a junkie and you're killing yourself. That's the bottom line. And you don't think that the way you go at this is glib and smug?
(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: What's with her?
MCGRAW: Well, as I said, we spent so much focus this year on drug and alcohol addiction. This is a woman that's a registered nurse and a drug and alcohol counselor in a major program that is shooting up on the job.
KING: Why did she come on?
MCGRAW: Well, because she got to the point that she recognizes this is going to kill me. I can't stop this. It's going to kill me. She's gone to see several different people. She's very intelligent. And she cons her way through it. She's gone to get help for this and got no help and wound up with more drugs.
KING: But helps others.
MCGRAW: And actually, is very knowledgeable about it. But uses that knowledge to her detriment. And so we're going to be looking at that in our prime time special on May 20. But it's -- it's just -- it's part of what we're doing this season on "Dr. Phil" and we're doing some things in prime time with it as well.
KING: We'll take a break and we'll be back with more calls. By the way, make a note, Thursday night on LARRY KING LIVE "Jiminy Glick." Martin Short, you know him as Martin Short. You may also know him as Jiminy Glick. He will host the entire hour. He will take over this program, Thursday Night, "Jiminy Glick."
Right back with Dr. Phil and your calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And who goes on TV and brags that they can get away with the system and they're a drug addict?
MCGRAW: You do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not bragging about it, period. I am not bragging about it. You don't believe it, do you?
MCGRAW: Why does that bother you so much?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because who brags about being a junkie?
MCGRAW: Do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You hear it that way.
MCGRAW: Because it is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But no it's not. It is absolutely not true. I do not brag about it.
MCGRAW: That's like the fourth or fifth time you've said that. Are you so zoned out that you don't remember saying it? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, but I can see by the look of your face that you don't believe it.
MCGRAW: I'm not controlled by you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: I want you to watch what happens here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband is shooting this film right now, which is probably good for him since he does not like to watch this, do you, Ed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My eyes are closed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's shaking his head and his eyes are closed.
MCGRAW: Watch it. Watch it. Don't look away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's hard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's always trying to lick the blood. She smells it. Sometimes it's embarrassing because I can't get her off of me.
MCGRAW: Now, she's licking the blood off of your wife's arm, and you're telling me that you don't see any convincing, persuasive clues that she's in trouble?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: By the way, what is...
MCGRAW: I agree. I agree with (INAUDIBLE).
KING: I must bring this up. "This is the last season I'll be working with Oprah, explodes Dr. Phil. It's war!"
Now, I hate to bring this up, but both of you are very famous. Oprah's been on this show a number of times. You're setting a record for being on. What's going on?
MCGRAW: Well, absolutely nothing. Does there have to be something going on for these tabloids to write this? Absolutely ridiculous. There's no war between Oprah and I. We are wonderful, lifelong friends, always have been. She's done...
KING: Well, now you can clear it up.
MCGRAW: She has done nothing but be a wonderful mentor for me, continues to be a wonderful mentor for me. She's my partner in the show. Will be my partner in the show forevermore going forward. That's totally made up.
KING: How do you react when you see something like that?
MCGRAW: Well, you know, we had -- that quotes this Omarosa as being the source for this, saying that I...
KING: The girl from "American Idol."
MCGRAW: Yeah, the show that airs Thursday is called "Reality Check." It's where we're kind of talking to people that have been in these reality shows and stuff. And we have Omarosa on and Donald Trump, because Omarosa is now accusing "The Apprentice" show of being racist and that they cast her in a bad light, and all of that.
So I had them both on, so we could talk about this and see what's up. They quote her as saying that I said those things to her, which is -- and I don't know whether she actually said that to them or not. If she did, it's an absolute outright lie.
KING: Well, maybe she didn't.
MCGRAW: I mean, if I was going to confide in somebody, I don't think it would be Omarosa from "The Apprentice."
KING: But knowing tabloids, maybe she didn't say it.
MCGRAW: And that's what I say, I have no idea whether she actually talked to them or not. But Oprah and I are fine, we're partners on the show. She's a dear friend and always will be. She and my wife spend too much money when they go shopping. Other than that, we're great.
KING: Oprah wrote the book.
MCGRAW: Yes, she did.
KING: Port Orchard, Washington. We go to calls for Dr. Phil. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Phil.
MCGRAW: How are you doing? Good evening.
CALLER: I'm doing just fine. This is really hard for me, but I've been addicted to pain killers ever since my 17-year-old son died. And I just wondered, what should I do? And I suffer from severe sleep disorder and depression and memory problems.
KING: How long has this been going on?
CALLER: Well, he died seven years ago. And shortly thereafter, about a year after, I started dabbling in it.
MCGRAW: And what are you taking, ma'am?
CALLER: What am I taking? MCGRAW: Is it OxyContin, Vicodin, what are you taking?
CALLER: Vicodin, OxyContin, the whole gamut.
KING: You take them all?
CALLER: Yes.
MCGRAW: Well, here's, first, let me be very, very clear and say, number one, I'm sorry for your loss. Number two, we often do things -- we often start doing something for one reason and we continue doing it for another. You probably started these drugs because you were looking for an escape; the pain was overwhelming for you. Now, you are a slave to the addiction.
And let me be very clear about this to everyone that's involved with these kinds of drugs. You cannot go cold turkey off of this without putting your health in jeopardy. You need to go to your doctor, go to your family doctor, go to your pastor, go to someone that is objective, that can get you the proper help and get you detoxified from these drugs, and then give you some skills to handle the anxiety, the depression.
The sleep disturbance you're having, the depression you're having, all of these things are very likely secondary to your addiction, because those are symptoms of being addicted long-term.
You need to reach out and get help. This will kill you if you don't stop it. And you don't know when that overdose will come or when your body will begin to shut down. Do not let another day go by without reaching out for some help from a medical professional that can assist you in getting off of these drugs.
KING: I thought you take the pain killers for physical pain, not for emotional pain.
MCGRAW: No, you don't take it for emotional pain. But oftentimes, people medicate themselves when they're feeling emotional pain. If they're in mourning, if they're horribly depressed.
KING: Really?
MCGRAW: They'll look for anything that gives them a bit of a high, it gives them a relief. And so they'll take them for that.
They are designed, you're quite right, to handle neurological...
KING: Arthritis, yeah.
MCGRAW: ... or organic-based pain. But people take them for other than those reasons, and they get addicted. And this is at a tissue level. So you have to get detoxification under medical supervision.
KING: Right back with Dr. Phil. The special airs Wednesday on Pat O'Brien. Don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with one of my favorite people, Dr. Phil. Seymour, Indiana. Hello? Seymour, Missouri, I'm sorry.
CALLER: Yes.
KING: Yeah.
CALLER: My question is about Pat O'Brien. Usually someone that uses (ph) medication pills usually has a basic problem that they're trying to get away from or hide. And I was wondering what Pat O'Brien's is.
MCGRAW: Well, I think -- I think there are a lot of different things that cause people to get involved with drugs. And I'm not so sure with Pat that he didn't get caught up in a lifestyle. I mean, this man's been a broadcaster for 30 years. He did the NBA for a long time and sports. Then he got into the celebrities. And boy, I tell you, it's just one red carpet after another, one party after another. You know, it's just so many things that, you know, the people there at the party do it like once every three months maybe, but there's a different party every night that you're having to cover. And before you know it, it catches up with you. And I'm not so sure that Pat didn't just get caught up in a lifestyle that bit him and bit him really hard.
KING: To Tampa, Florida, hello.
CALLER: Yes, Larry. My question for Dr. Phil is recently here in Tampa, Florida, a 5-year-old girl was handcuffed and led away by police officers. What advice, sir, would you have for schools, teachers and students to avoid future situations like that?
KING: What has she -- what has she done?
CALLER: She had been disruptive in a class. They caught her on videotape. After they calmed her down, she was sitting there all calm, and then suddenly on the videotape you see four police officers come in, handcuff the 4-year-old or the 5-year-old child and lead her away.
MCGRAW: Well, that's a fair question. And I know there was a very disturbing image, handcuffing a 5-year-old child. I think that first off, I'm probably not objective about this, because I'm a huge fan of teachers. I mean, look, teachers don't do their job for the money, obviously, because we pay them ridiculously little amounts for what they put in. Most of them come out of their own pocket for materials and things to help the children and all that.
And in the footage that I saw, there was apparently a vice principal that was just not even willing to touch this young girl for fear that she would get in trouble. And the young girl just kept going on and on and on, and hitting, and biting, and kicking, and screaming. And so they called the police. And they handcuffed them. I think that was a really bad decision, to handcuff that little girl, but apparently there wasn't somebody there that had the skills and the abilities to redirect this child in another way. The child may have emotional problems, may have medical problems with oppositional disorder, could be ADHD. There could be a lot of things that explain it, but I think they got in a really bad situation and some people did the only thing that they could think of to do at the time. It was a bad decision on the part of the police who, again, are just trying to do their jobs.
I hope everybody, instead of turning this into some big litigation, will just step back and think through this and come up with some plan.
KING: Edmonton, Alberta. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. Dr. Phil, I love an alcoholic. I've tried everything to help him. I brought him to AA meetings. I brought him to a medical doctor for medical help. I even brought him for addiction counseling, and he's managed to quit drinking for short periods only. I finally had to give him an ultimatum and leave because he becomes violent when he's drinking. Is there anything more that can help him? And what is the difference, or what ingredient does one person have, that he doesn't, to allow them to recover and him not to?
KING: Wow.
MCGRAW: Well, first off, we have a great show coming up this Friday called "Realities of Rehab," where we answer a lot of those questions. But, understand this -- alcoholism is a disease. It is a complex disease. It is resistant to treatment, and it is subject to relapse. So you're dealing with something here that is very layered and very complex. The biggest problem is hear in what you're saying is, you brought him to counseling. You brought him to AA. You brought him to a medical doctor, which means he had no ownership in this whatsoever. You were the driving force behind it, and unless -- and until -- he says, I'm going to do this for me, he never will get better and get a handle on it.
There's a point at which they have to understand that they are absolutely helpless to deal with alcohol or the drug, that they have to surrender and say, that I am helpless to deal with this so I have to stay away from it completely. But until he buys into that, there's nothing you can do, and you have to decide how long you're willing to put up with this.
KING: And we'll be back with more moments right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: The last three seasons a few folks have even dared to impersonate me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get excited about your life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to get real fat and you're going to get real ugly, or you're going to get real fugly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a comedian? Are you a jerk?
MCGRAW: Recently I've looked like this Jeffrey Tambor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say that you stand out like a Godiva chocolate in a field full of cow patties. Wouldn't you say, yes? Yesiree Bob.
MCGRAW: I'll take mine off if you'll take yours off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll take mine off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's make an ass of ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That was the 500th anniversary -- or the 500th show.
MCGRAW: It was our 500th show.
KING: That's great stuff.
MCGRAW: You've done like 50,000 shows.
KING: You've done my 70th birthday. You hosted this.
MCGRAW: I did.
KING: That was the biggest surprise ever.
Louisville, hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. Thanks, Dr. Phil, for taking my call. You know, I'm not a drug addict but I'm a food addict, and I'm in desperate need of help, and I was wanting to know if you were going to be doing another one of your weight-loss challenge shows and how I could go about applying to get on?
MCGRAW: Well, certainly we are and certainly you can. You just go to DrPhil.com and you can sign up for all kinds of things there, because we like to talk to people who are facing challenges. But, you're quite right -- you can get addicted to food, and interestingly enough, it is one of the most difficult addictions because it is the one substance from which you cannot totally abstain. You can totally abstain from alcohol. You can totally abstain from drugs, but you cannot totally abstain from food. You have to deal with it and manage it, so it's one of the most resistant that you have to deal with.
KING: Emporium, Pennsylvania. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. Dr. Phil, I really enjoy watching your show every day... MCGRAW: Thank you.
CALLER: ...and reading your books, and I would like to know who you would like most to interview that you have not had the opportunity to interview as of yet?
MCGRAW: Oh, wow, who would I like to most interview? Well, I interviewed Larry. That was fun, don't you think?
KING: That was a great hour.
MCGRAW: Yes, that was fun. I think probably -- if this is just fantasy interview -- cliche as it may sound, I think that I would like to interview Jesus Christ, to really learn the secrets of life and the universe. I think that would be a wonderful thing to do. If it was somebody on the face of this earth or somebody in my lifetime -- I lost my dad about 10 years ago. I would love to interview him now about what he thinks about what has transpired in my life and in the world in the last 10 years.
KING: We only have about a minute. What puzzles you the most? What human behavior boggles the mind of Dr. Phil?
MCGRAW: Well, I think the thing probably that really gives me the most consternation is why people make some of the choices they make knowing -- -- that it is not going to bring about a good result. And I can give you the scientific explanation for it, like cigarettes. People know smoking will kill you, and the immediate gratification outweighs the remote long-term penalty. But I still wrestle with how somebody makes those things OK in their mind.
KING: The definition of insanity is repeating the same things you've always done.
MCGRAW: ...and expecting a different result.
KING: That's insanity.
MCGRAW: And I guess it is insane. But, I really wonder -- when people do self-destructive things, at some point they had to, in their minds say, this is OK to do. They had to make it OK. And I find that really difficult to understand.
KING: Thank you, doctor. Always a pleasure.
MCGRAW: Larry, good to see you again.
KING: Dr. Phil, don't forget -- Wednesday night, 8:00 on CBS, his prime time special "Behind the Headlines" with Pat O'Brien.
Speaking of headlines, the defense is about to take over in the Michael Jackson case, and we'll look at that tomorrow night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 8, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Dr. Phil McGraw. His thoughts on the runaway bride story, the Michael Jackson child molestation trial. His big Pat O'Brien post-rehab interview. Some of your issues too. Dr. Phil, keeping it real for the hour with your calls, next, on LARRY KING LIVE.
He's host of the extraordinarily successful syndicated show "Dr. Phil," the author of the number one "New York Times" best seller, most recent book "Family First: Your Step-by-Step Plan for Creating a Phenomenal Family." And he's host of the new Dr. Phil prime-time special -- there you see the cover of the book -- "Behind the Headlines." It will air this Wednesday night at 8:00 Eastern on CBS. And it deals with the recovery, hopeful recovery of Pat O'Brien, the noted broadcaster who has come back.
Now, there was a big story in "The New York Times" today, so let's deal with that off the top. The story, despite denials from all the people involved, seemed to say that you work for the same people as Pat O'Brien works for, they also own CBS, they own Paramount, they syndicate you, they syndicate him. This was all a deal.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TV TALK SHOW HOST: What kind of deal?
KING: That you would promote him, and he gets to have his return to the air promoted, that it's all inner company promotion?
MCGRAW: I guess there's just a lot of paranoia out there. Look, I do my show, and I don't know anybody at Viacom. I don't know those people. We're -- I guess I'm on the Paramount lot, so that gives them a hook to talk about that.
But let me tell you why I'm doing this interview. I don't care whether he's with CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN or whoever. As you know, a big signature of our season has been drugs and alcohol. I've probably done 20 shows on that this year. We put a number of people into rehab and recovery.
When this story broke on Pat, my producers, Carla Pennington, my executive producer, came and said, you know, this could be a great story for us to do, to raise the awareness again about alcohol and drugs. Because we've done so much on it this year.
So we contacted them. And he could either sit down with just a generic interviewer, who is going to do a voyeuristic version, like tell us what happened, this or that, or he can sit down with me, who deals with this in a content-specific way. This is my content. This is who I am. This is what I do, human functioning, and drug and alcohol addictions are a big part of that. So my...
KING: That was the pitch.
MCGRAW: That was the pitch. We said, look, if you really want to really get real with this, if you want to deal with this straight up and be accountable for it, then talk to somebody who knows what's going on, somebody that knows what this is about, that can ask you the hard questions and steer you in the right direction.
KING: So what did you make of that "Times" story when you saw it?
MCGRAW: I thought it was a pretty good story. I thought they asked fair questions about it. I think the fact that I have -- I don't work for Viacom, I don't work for CBS. I work for myself. I mean, this is my show. I do it; Oprah and I are partners. And I don't work for any of those people. But I think they're fair questions to ask that.
But you can't watch this interview and think that this was a promotional thing. I think when you watch this interview, you're going to see that he got the hardest line questions from me that he would have gotten from anybody in the country. And you know I don't throw soft softballs.
KING: I had dinner with Sumner Redstone, who's chairman of Viacom. You ought to meet him; he's a nice guy. Had dinner with him Saturday night. He didn't know anything about this. At that level, they don't know.
MCGRAW: And at this level, I'm just ...
KING: Our level.
MCGRAW: I'm just in the trenches doing shows every day. I don't know about the corporate politics.
KING: Another question raised. Why would someone come out of rehab and go right to an interview?
MCGRAW: Well, because I think he wants to get back to his life. And his life is being on the air. And I don't really think he can go on the air until he answers questions about his conduct, his values and his beliefs. I think he said and did some things that it wasn't just, gee, they found him drunk one night. I think he did some things that are highly offensive to the sensibilities of most Americans in general and women in particular. And to just go back on the air and say, well, I've been gone a while but glad to be back, I think people will say, well, wait a minute. What about all this stuff? You said this, you did this, you evidenced this. What about all that? I think people want those questions asked. And I think he has to answer them before he can go back on the air.
KING: Or he could have chosen to take some time off and not go back on the air.
MCGRAW: He could have done that, but he's been off now about two months
KING: Now, how did you handle the delicate matter of -- did you play any of these tapes of what he said to people on the phone, to women?
MCGRAW: Absolutely. Look...
KING: We don't have any advanced previews from the show. They're being embargoed. But you played some of the tapes.
MCGRAW: I did.
KING: This will be the first time they're played on national television?
MCGRAW: Well, I think there have been snippets here and there. And these are very graphic tapes. And they have very vulgar and inappropriate language in them. They are properly sanitized for being on the network. I play them enough so people get a flavor for what went on, but not so much as to sensationalize the story. And I had absolutely no requests from Pat or his lawyer or publicist about, don't go here, don't go there, because I told him, no deals. I'll either interview him, or I won't.
KING: How well did he handle himself?
MCGRAW: I thought he handled himself in a very sincere fashion. Look, I have said ...
KING: It must be embarrassing.
MCGRAW: He's humiliated about it. It's a horrifying thing to be involved in. I've said to people on the show, if your spouse, for example, is addicted to drugs or alcohol, you're not dealing with your spouse; you're dealing with the chemicals. They change you. They alter your personality, your mind. And I think that Pat certainly had a problem with addiction to alcohol and drugs. It changed who he was. A lot of these things he didn't remember anything about at all.
KING: The things on the tape?
MCGRAW: The things on the tape. And I think that's sincere. But he's stepping up. And I said it to him in the interview, I said, if you're big enough to do it, you're big enough to stand up and answer questions about it.
KING: What's the connection between alcohol and making perverse sexual innuendo -- not innuendo, direct sexual come-on tapes. What's that connection?
MCGRAW: Well, it's both drugs and alcohol. But specifically about alcohol, alcohol is a depressant. And it's a depressant in that it depresses your inhibition centers. And so things that, if you were sober, you would say, not a good idea -- that part of your brain is turned off, where, hey, you know, whatever. You just kind of go with the flow. You don't have that little man in there that says, stop, stop, stop, don't do this.
So I think it just absolutely washed away his inhibitions. I think his reasoning power was completely altered. He was in an altered state of consciousness by the combination of the drugs and alcohol. And he was reacting to the visual stimuli of a woman.
KING: So all the phone instances were while under some influence?
MCGRAW: And it's obvious when you listen to them.
KING: It is. There's nothing like a sober person.
MCGRAW: No, it's not. And he doesn't sound like horribly slurry drunk, but I think it was a combination of the alcohol. And you can hear the repetition in there. It's not the Pat that you know. You know Pat, right?
KING: I know and like him.
MCGRAW: And I don't know him very well...
KING: I like him very much.
MCGRAW: ... but I've watched him on the air, and it's certainly not the person you hear on the air.
KING: How well does -- what happens when alcohol and drugs -- are we talking about cocaine, or what?
MCGRAW: Cocaine.
KING: When alcohol and cocaine mix, what happens?
MCGRAW: Well, they potentiate one another. When you -- you know, they often tell you, if you're taking pain medications or whatever, don't drink alcohol. It's because it potentiates it. It takes its power from maybe a level two -- it might go to a level 20 or it might go to a level 200. It potentiates the drug. And that's what happens when you get the dangerous combination with the interactive effects between drugs and alcohol. And this all culminated in that one night for Pat. But his problem, he didn't just have a bad weekend, this had become a lifestyle for Pat. It got the best of him. He is an alcoholic.
KING: How has it affected his relationship with the very nice young lady?
MCGRAW: Well, you know, I think that it has put major obstacles in his life in all areas. In terms of his children, his professional relationships, his friendships. Everybody involved. But I am so impressed that he had the willingness and ability to step up and own this and be accountable for it. Now, America can watch and make up their mind about whether he's getting real about this or not.
KING: We'll be right back with Dr. Phil. It airs Wednesday night on CBS. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: You have no fence that keeps another woman out of your relationship. You have no boundary that says, mother, I've got to do this over here on my own. We are the mother and father now. Does that mean that you can't and shouldn't play an important role in their life? Absolutely not. There is no greater gift to those children than to crawl up in grandma's lap. But you've got to put up some boundaries. And if you're seeing -- if you walk in there and say, oh, she's messy, oh, she's gaining weight, oh, she's this, oh, she's that -- you know what you need to do? Stuff that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Dr. Phil.
I also understand he'll be on your syndicated show this week with an audience.
MCGRAW: Yes. First time in front of an audience. And we're doing a show -- again, as I say, we dedicated a lot of this year to drug and alcohol addiction and the rehabilitation and recovery process. We're doing a show about life after rehab, where we have some people on that are re-merging into the real world from the rehab centers. And we thought that would be a really good place for Pat to weigh in.
KING: How well will he come back? We have embarrassing stories about Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh and Martha Stewart goes to jail. Limbaugh's still on the air, O'Reilly's still on the air, Martha's stronger than ever. Will Pat come back?
MCGRAW: Well, I believe absolutely yes, and I'll tell you why. Because he's being honest about it. He's stepping up and owning this. Pat has a 30-year history of being an excellent journalist, excellent reporter and broadcaster. And I think -- I think he's earned a second look.
KING: Marv Albert came back.
MCGRAW: And I think...
KING: You think he'll get it?
MCGRAW: I do. I think he will get his second chance. I think he deserves it because he's owned this and been honest about it. And I mean, this guy worked so hard for so long and done such a good job. And I think America is a forgiving country.
KING: In your expertise, has he recovered? MCGRAW: Absolutely not. I think it's a process. And I think...
KING: He could go back tonight?
MCGRAW: There's an 85 percent failure rate among those that go to alcohol rehabilitation and drug rehabilitation.
KING: So the odds are he will go back?
MCGRAW: The odds are that he will go back. But let me say this, the people that wind up in the 15 percent that maintain sobriety across a period of time don't get there by accident. It is not just luck of the draw. It is those who recognize, number one, you were using the alcohol and drugs as a coping mechanism. Now we take that away, you better put something in its place. Those problems still exist. The anxiety, the nervousness, the depression, the insecurity, whatever it is, he has to come with new constructively to handle that. You don't just white knuckle your way though after you have gotten off of the toxic substances. You have to put in an after-care program that supports your sobriety. You can't go back to the same friends, the same environment, the same conduct, the same behavior, you got to change everything.
KING: He's going to the same business, the same show, the same producers, the same people around him. One would assume it's high risk.
MCGRAW: I think Pat hid most of this inappropriate behavior from those that he worked with. I don't think that was the problem. I think it was when he got away from that that he spun out of control. Most people, like you, who knew him, had no idea, correct?
KING: Paula Zahn just said before we went on, she worked with him for year, never had an idea.
MCGRAW: Now, see that's not the problem. I think the problem is what happens when you're away from those people and who will step up and hold you accountable. What I've seen Pat do, is I've seen him put important elements of programming himself to remain sober in place from the time he has left going forward. He's got sobriety partners. He's going to a meeting today in the 12-step program, which I'm a huge fan of, by the way. He's involved in an outpatient therapy program. He's getting individual counseling. He's doing everything he needs to, A, be held accountable, and, B, grow past the need for these substances.
KING: His show, of course, is a show about other people. Should he discuss any of this on his own show? What would you recommend?
MCGRAW: I would recommend that he not ignore it. I would recommend that he step up and say, look, it's no secret I became a story and I've been gone. And I trust that you watched what was on the air last night with the special.
KING: He comes back on Thursday. MCGRAW: The next day. The show airs Wednesday, he goes back on the air Thursday. I think he needs to acknowledge that and invite everybody out there to, A, forgive him, and, B, keep a close eye on him.
KING: Does it bother you that there's also a maudlin aspect? There will be great interest in this because of this. Because it is what it is.
MCGRAW: You know what I think, I think the fact that Pat O'Brien is such a high profile personality that it draws a lot of attention to alcohol and drug addiction. There are so many people out there right now who are living with addicts or who are addicts or they're living with alcoholics or they are alcoholics, that this will raise the awareness where they say, you know what? They're right. I need to get help. I need to get my wife or my husband help. I think sometimes -- I'm not saying it's worth it to Pat, but I think he's a good teaching tool. He's a good poster boy, a good bell cow for this. So if it raises awareness and causes other people to get help, it's a silver lining.
KING: It airs Wednesday night. Behind the headlines, a prime special. There will be other. In fact, we'll show a clip from another one, not the one coming up Wednesday.
MCGRAW: Let me say this. I had a -- I don't know Pat O'Brien. I've kind of seen him around. Our kids go to the same school. I probably spent less than 15 minutes in my whole life with Pat O'Brien before this interview. I had a pretty good opinion of him going in. I have to say I had a better opinion coming, than I did going in.
KING: We'll be right back with more right after this. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: You were not assigned to be aggressive when you were on the show. You chose that. You said this is the way for me to get camera time. I'm going to be controversial, correct?
OMAROSA MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: That's correct.
MCGRAW: OK. Then how can you go on there saying the first one, you set that tone. You did it, it worked, and now you're criticizing them for what you chose to do? I don't get that.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: Yes, I was smart enough to calculate and know that.
MCGRAW: Then why complain about it now? If you knew then what you know now, would you have done "The Apprentice"?
DONALD TRUMP, "APPRENTICE": The answer is absolutely yes.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: Yes.
TRUMP: I'd love to have you back.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: I'd love to come back.
TRUMP: Then I could say to her again, Dr. Phil -- Omarosa, you're fired.
MANIGAULT-STALLWORT: You're fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It absolutely is a cult. They use brain washing. They use terror.
MCGRAW: Last year 16-year-old Fawn Broadbent (ph) and Fawn Holm escaped the only home they've ever known.
FAWN HOLM: I was born in Colorado city. I was taught that people from outside were not to be trusted and not to talk to them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They'd teach you that men are higher than women. Women should bow to them
MCGRAW: Why did you want to be here today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to know if I'm really going to go to hell.
MCGRAW: I'm no preacher, but let me tell you what I do know. God is a loving god. This idea that, if you assert this free will, that you will forever burn in hell, is just simply not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That was one kind of bride. What do you make of this other bride story, which I'm trying to figure out is a story -- why?
MCGRAW: Well, you know, I guess the story is that she put her family and the police and everybody that knew her through this horrible belief that she had been abducted, and therefore possibly killed, raped...
KING: Course, there's runaway brides all the time.
MCGRAW: Why, sure, there's runaway brides all the time. But, I mean, she didn't just say never mind and run off, she faked her own abduction. And, you know, who knows? And I've watched this, just like you and everybody else, and I've watched her fiance. And -- all I can give an opinion.
KING: That's all I'm asking.
MCGRAW: But, he didn't look very upset to me. I mean, I would have been more upset than that if somebody had abducted Robin. But -- and so I don't know if the full story's known yet or something. Was this a prank? Did he know something about it? I don't know that he did. I'm not saying that he did. But boy, it sure raises a lot of questions in my mind why somebody would want to do that. If you don't want to get married, don't get married, but don't put your family through that.
KING: You're not a lawyer -- do you think there are charges coming here? They're talking about it.
MCGRAW: Well, it seemed to me there would be. I mean, as a taxpayer, I'd kind of like to have her accountable for that, I guess. Add up all the money that was spent looking for her and let her work that off for a while. Seems to me that's just a complete and utter -- we've got enough legitimate abductions, legitimate problems, legitimate need for police power, to not be chasing her around because she doesn't want to marry this guy. I mean, so, don't marry him, but don't...
KING: If he were troubled, how would you counsel him? He's publicly humiliated.
MCGRAW: I'm counsel him to get another bride. I think he -- I would really have problems with this woman if I was him, just her judgment and her insensitivity to what was going on. That would really, really bother me, for him. You know, if he truly didn't know anything about this, I think this would create serious, serious doubts on my part, if I were him.
KING: We're not going to ever judge the outcome of a trial before it's over, but what's your read on the person that is Michael Jackson? Forgetting -- I'm not going to make a judgment if he's a predator of children and the like.
MCGRAW: You're really jumping around tonight. This is Larry King potpourri. I'm everywhere.
KING: Hey, I've been on this show. What -- is he a man-child?
MCGRAW: Listen, you're right. As you know, I worked as a litigation consultant for 15 years, and I know that what the public hears and what the jury hears are often two different things, and you can't prejudge that. The only thing that I can rely on is just the words I've heard come out of his mouth personally and the conduct that I've seen from him, personally, like in the two-hour special and that sort of thing.
Very disturbing. Very, very disturbing. I mean, he says I'm sleeping in beds with these young boys. and they're kind of hanging on each other in the interview and stuff. That's inappropriate -- if that's all that ever happened, that's inappropriate. So, you know, that's very concerning.
KING: What's your read on what would lead someone to do that? Let's say he weren't a predator. You say it is still inappropriate, right? MCGRAW: It is inappropriate. I mean, I think anybody with any common sense would look at this and say, a grown man, not a family person, not somebody that has a relationship, sleeping in beds with young boys and that sort of thing, is just simply not a healthy thing to do. And so I think that's inappropriate. But what we know about sexual predators is that they typically are so inferior in their feelings about themselves, that they have such low self-esteem, such low confidence, that they don't feel equal to interacting with an adult, someone their own age. They can only feel a sense of adequacy with someone that's much younger, much less powerful, much less equipped mentally, physically, emotionally, and so they feel safer.
KING: Why is it called incurable?
MCGRAW: Just because, based on statistics, they just don't seem to get better. I mean, the average predator, by the time they have been caught, have molested an average of 117 victims, for every predator. By the time they get caught, it averages 117 victims. Their reoffense rate is extremely high, because they've learned this pattern, and many of them have been abused themselves early on. Those wounds have never been healed. They get into this pattern of gratification by interacting with these children, and they never are able to learn the adequacy to handle it.
You've seen chemical castrations where they give them medications to lower the testosterone levels et cetera, et cetera, but it doesn't -- it doesn't make a difference.
KING: We'll take a break. Other topics to cover, other specials he's going to do and your phone calls. Dr. Phil is our guest. This special airs Wednesday night. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does a father do when he hears that your daughter's been touched sexually by your own son?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just sobbed. Our worst nightmare had come true. Since we've been home, Macai (ph) is a hot button issue for Brad and I. A few days after Macai was in treatment he called the house. His father was livid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were having this discussion like nothing had happened. It made me sick to my stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know I need boundaries, but I don't think a mother can have too much love for her children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know she did not take this as I'm helping her out. She's going to take this as I can't run my own house. I need to let them run their own house.
MCGRAW: And their own marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And their own marriage.
MCGRAW: He shouldn't be coming to you with the things that he talks to you about. You say, I don't want him to. But you don't tell him to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And who else is he going to go to but his mom.
MCGRAW: His wife! You're not qualified to give advice to these people. You've got a dog in the fight, you can't be objective. They need to work this out together. And you know what, they just might do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Early we showed a clip about brainwashed brides. What was that about?
MCGRAW: Well...
KING: Is that a coming show?
MCGRAW: It is. This show airs tomorrow. And we got contacted by some young women -- I mean, 14, 15-year-old women, that are involved in a cult in Colorado City, Utah. This FLDS Cult. And these young girls are forced into marriage with men in this church, this cult, at like 13, 14, 15 years of age. They've got 40 or 50 sisters. These men have multiple wives, anywhere from five, six, seven up to 10 or 12 the different wives. And they brainwash these girls into thinking this is appropriate. And force them into marriage so they can start having children. And they have all these multiple wives. There are laws against this.
KING: Have there been massive arrests?
MCGRAW: There have not been.
KING: Explain that.
MCGRAW: Well, what we're doing in brainwashed brides is finding out first, what's happened? There are young men in the town. It seems that they run them off. That they get rid of them. They cast them out of the town, so these girls are available to marry these older men. They're 40 and 50 years old marrying these 14-year-old girls right here in America. And these two girls escaped.
KING: Is this the old Mormon.
MCGRAW: I think a long, long time ago, may have been connected with the Mormon Church.
KING: This is not... MCGRAW: The Mormon Church is very clear about this. They do not endorse this. They are not involved with this in anyway. They think it's inappropriate and they want nothing to do with it, from what I understand. But yet, they have a leader there. And so these two girls escaped. They got into an underground pipeline to get out of this, because the police department in the city is part of the cult. And so they run them down and bring them back.
The police departments?
MCGRAW: Yes. And so we've got them on the show and we're talking to them and trying to help them. Because now they're saying, I'm out. What do I do? This is the only life they've ever known. They've been totally brainwashed.
KING: This should be a major story.
MCGRAW: It is a major story. And we're doing a follow-up on it, soon, where my son Jay who works with his son, has actually gone into the town and talked to the mayor of the town, the police there, the attorney general of Utah. Find out, you know, what's going on here? Why aren't people -- very disturbing show. Right here in America. And this is a compelling, compelling story.
KING: There's another prime time special coming in this series. This one is May 24, and we're going to show a clip from it...
MCGRAW: May 20.
KING: May 20. A registered nurse on the job. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I work in a state alcohol and drug rehab.
MCGRAW: So you talk to people about how to stay clean and sober and you talk to them about how to handle those urges and how to make the right choices in their life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MCGRAW: Minutes after you shot up in a closet at work?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
MCGRAW: You're a junkie. You're a junkie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know.
MCGRAW: A lot of these people are homeless. And they're just really kind of downtrodden it's very sad. There's no difference between you and them. You're a junkie and you're killing yourself. That's the bottom line. And you don't think that the way you go at this is glib and smug?
(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: What's with her?
MCGRAW: Well, as I said, we spent so much focus this year on drug and alcohol addiction. This is a woman that's a registered nurse and a drug and alcohol counselor in a major program that is shooting up on the job.
KING: Why did she come on?
MCGRAW: Well, because she got to the point that she recognizes this is going to kill me. I can't stop this. It's going to kill me. She's gone to see several different people. She's very intelligent. And she cons her way through it. She's gone to get help for this and got no help and wound up with more drugs.
KING: But helps others.
MCGRAW: And actually, is very knowledgeable about it. But uses that knowledge to her detriment. And so we're going to be looking at that in our prime time special on May 20. But it's -- it's just -- it's part of what we're doing this season on "Dr. Phil" and we're doing some things in prime time with it as well.
KING: We'll take a break and we'll be back with more calls. By the way, make a note, Thursday night on LARRY KING LIVE "Jiminy Glick." Martin Short, you know him as Martin Short. You may also know him as Jiminy Glick. He will host the entire hour. He will take over this program, Thursday Night, "Jiminy Glick."
Right back with Dr. Phil and your calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And who goes on TV and brags that they can get away with the system and they're a drug addict?
MCGRAW: You do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not bragging about it, period. I am not bragging about it. You don't believe it, do you?
MCGRAW: Why does that bother you so much?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because who brags about being a junkie?
MCGRAW: Do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You hear it that way.
MCGRAW: Because it is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But no it's not. It is absolutely not true. I do not brag about it.
MCGRAW: That's like the fourth or fifth time you've said that. Are you so zoned out that you don't remember saying it? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, but I can see by the look of your face that you don't believe it.
MCGRAW: I'm not controlled by you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: I want you to watch what happens here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband is shooting this film right now, which is probably good for him since he does not like to watch this, do you, Ed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My eyes are closed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's shaking his head and his eyes are closed.
MCGRAW: Watch it. Watch it. Don't look away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's hard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's always trying to lick the blood. She smells it. Sometimes it's embarrassing because I can't get her off of me.
MCGRAW: Now, she's licking the blood off of your wife's arm, and you're telling me that you don't see any convincing, persuasive clues that she's in trouble?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: By the way, what is...
MCGRAW: I agree. I agree with (INAUDIBLE).
KING: I must bring this up. "This is the last season I'll be working with Oprah, explodes Dr. Phil. It's war!"
Now, I hate to bring this up, but both of you are very famous. Oprah's been on this show a number of times. You're setting a record for being on. What's going on?
MCGRAW: Well, absolutely nothing. Does there have to be something going on for these tabloids to write this? Absolutely ridiculous. There's no war between Oprah and I. We are wonderful, lifelong friends, always have been. She's done...
KING: Well, now you can clear it up.
MCGRAW: She has done nothing but be a wonderful mentor for me, continues to be a wonderful mentor for me. She's my partner in the show. Will be my partner in the show forevermore going forward. That's totally made up.
KING: How do you react when you see something like that?
MCGRAW: Well, you know, we had -- that quotes this Omarosa as being the source for this, saying that I...
KING: The girl from "American Idol."
MCGRAW: Yeah, the show that airs Thursday is called "Reality Check." It's where we're kind of talking to people that have been in these reality shows and stuff. And we have Omarosa on and Donald Trump, because Omarosa is now accusing "The Apprentice" show of being racist and that they cast her in a bad light, and all of that.
So I had them both on, so we could talk about this and see what's up. They quote her as saying that I said those things to her, which is -- and I don't know whether she actually said that to them or not. If she did, it's an absolute outright lie.
KING: Well, maybe she didn't.
MCGRAW: I mean, if I was going to confide in somebody, I don't think it would be Omarosa from "The Apprentice."
KING: But knowing tabloids, maybe she didn't say it.
MCGRAW: And that's what I say, I have no idea whether she actually talked to them or not. But Oprah and I are fine, we're partners on the show. She's a dear friend and always will be. She and my wife spend too much money when they go shopping. Other than that, we're great.
KING: Oprah wrote the book.
MCGRAW: Yes, she did.
KING: Port Orchard, Washington. We go to calls for Dr. Phil. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Phil.
MCGRAW: How are you doing? Good evening.
CALLER: I'm doing just fine. This is really hard for me, but I've been addicted to pain killers ever since my 17-year-old son died. And I just wondered, what should I do? And I suffer from severe sleep disorder and depression and memory problems.
KING: How long has this been going on?
CALLER: Well, he died seven years ago. And shortly thereafter, about a year after, I started dabbling in it.
MCGRAW: And what are you taking, ma'am?
CALLER: What am I taking? MCGRAW: Is it OxyContin, Vicodin, what are you taking?
CALLER: Vicodin, OxyContin, the whole gamut.
KING: You take them all?
CALLER: Yes.
MCGRAW: Well, here's, first, let me be very, very clear and say, number one, I'm sorry for your loss. Number two, we often do things -- we often start doing something for one reason and we continue doing it for another. You probably started these drugs because you were looking for an escape; the pain was overwhelming for you. Now, you are a slave to the addiction.
And let me be very clear about this to everyone that's involved with these kinds of drugs. You cannot go cold turkey off of this without putting your health in jeopardy. You need to go to your doctor, go to your family doctor, go to your pastor, go to someone that is objective, that can get you the proper help and get you detoxified from these drugs, and then give you some skills to handle the anxiety, the depression.
The sleep disturbance you're having, the depression you're having, all of these things are very likely secondary to your addiction, because those are symptoms of being addicted long-term.
You need to reach out and get help. This will kill you if you don't stop it. And you don't know when that overdose will come or when your body will begin to shut down. Do not let another day go by without reaching out for some help from a medical professional that can assist you in getting off of these drugs.
KING: I thought you take the pain killers for physical pain, not for emotional pain.
MCGRAW: No, you don't take it for emotional pain. But oftentimes, people medicate themselves when they're feeling emotional pain. If they're in mourning, if they're horribly depressed.
KING: Really?
MCGRAW: They'll look for anything that gives them a bit of a high, it gives them a relief. And so they'll take them for that.
They are designed, you're quite right, to handle neurological...
KING: Arthritis, yeah.
MCGRAW: ... or organic-based pain. But people take them for other than those reasons, and they get addicted. And this is at a tissue level. So you have to get detoxification under medical supervision.
KING: Right back with Dr. Phil. The special airs Wednesday on Pat O'Brien. Don't go away. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with one of my favorite people, Dr. Phil. Seymour, Indiana. Hello? Seymour, Missouri, I'm sorry.
CALLER: Yes.
KING: Yeah.
CALLER: My question is about Pat O'Brien. Usually someone that uses (ph) medication pills usually has a basic problem that they're trying to get away from or hide. And I was wondering what Pat O'Brien's is.
MCGRAW: Well, I think -- I think there are a lot of different things that cause people to get involved with drugs. And I'm not so sure with Pat that he didn't get caught up in a lifestyle. I mean, this man's been a broadcaster for 30 years. He did the NBA for a long time and sports. Then he got into the celebrities. And boy, I tell you, it's just one red carpet after another, one party after another. You know, it's just so many things that, you know, the people there at the party do it like once every three months maybe, but there's a different party every night that you're having to cover. And before you know it, it catches up with you. And I'm not so sure that Pat didn't just get caught up in a lifestyle that bit him and bit him really hard.
KING: To Tampa, Florida, hello.
CALLER: Yes, Larry. My question for Dr. Phil is recently here in Tampa, Florida, a 5-year-old girl was handcuffed and led away by police officers. What advice, sir, would you have for schools, teachers and students to avoid future situations like that?
KING: What has she -- what has she done?
CALLER: She had been disruptive in a class. They caught her on videotape. After they calmed her down, she was sitting there all calm, and then suddenly on the videotape you see four police officers come in, handcuff the 4-year-old or the 5-year-old child and lead her away.
MCGRAW: Well, that's a fair question. And I know there was a very disturbing image, handcuffing a 5-year-old child. I think that first off, I'm probably not objective about this, because I'm a huge fan of teachers. I mean, look, teachers don't do their job for the money, obviously, because we pay them ridiculously little amounts for what they put in. Most of them come out of their own pocket for materials and things to help the children and all that.
And in the footage that I saw, there was apparently a vice principal that was just not even willing to touch this young girl for fear that she would get in trouble. And the young girl just kept going on and on and on, and hitting, and biting, and kicking, and screaming. And so they called the police. And they handcuffed them. I think that was a really bad decision, to handcuff that little girl, but apparently there wasn't somebody there that had the skills and the abilities to redirect this child in another way. The child may have emotional problems, may have medical problems with oppositional disorder, could be ADHD. There could be a lot of things that explain it, but I think they got in a really bad situation and some people did the only thing that they could think of to do at the time. It was a bad decision on the part of the police who, again, are just trying to do their jobs.
I hope everybody, instead of turning this into some big litigation, will just step back and think through this and come up with some plan.
KING: Edmonton, Alberta. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. Dr. Phil, I love an alcoholic. I've tried everything to help him. I brought him to AA meetings. I brought him to a medical doctor for medical help. I even brought him for addiction counseling, and he's managed to quit drinking for short periods only. I finally had to give him an ultimatum and leave because he becomes violent when he's drinking. Is there anything more that can help him? And what is the difference, or what ingredient does one person have, that he doesn't, to allow them to recover and him not to?
KING: Wow.
MCGRAW: Well, first off, we have a great show coming up this Friday called "Realities of Rehab," where we answer a lot of those questions. But, understand this -- alcoholism is a disease. It is a complex disease. It is resistant to treatment, and it is subject to relapse. So you're dealing with something here that is very layered and very complex. The biggest problem is hear in what you're saying is, you brought him to counseling. You brought him to AA. You brought him to a medical doctor, which means he had no ownership in this whatsoever. You were the driving force behind it, and unless -- and until -- he says, I'm going to do this for me, he never will get better and get a handle on it.
There's a point at which they have to understand that they are absolutely helpless to deal with alcohol or the drug, that they have to surrender and say, that I am helpless to deal with this so I have to stay away from it completely. But until he buys into that, there's nothing you can do, and you have to decide how long you're willing to put up with this.
KING: And we'll be back with more moments right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: The last three seasons a few folks have even dared to impersonate me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get excited about your life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to get real fat and you're going to get real ugly, or you're going to get real fugly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a comedian? Are you a jerk?
MCGRAW: Recently I've looked like this Jeffrey Tambor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say that you stand out like a Godiva chocolate in a field full of cow patties. Wouldn't you say, yes? Yesiree Bob.
MCGRAW: I'll take mine off if you'll take yours off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll take mine off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's make an ass of ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That was the 500th anniversary -- or the 500th show.
MCGRAW: It was our 500th show.
KING: That's great stuff.
MCGRAW: You've done like 50,000 shows.
KING: You've done my 70th birthday. You hosted this.
MCGRAW: I did.
KING: That was the biggest surprise ever.
Louisville, hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. Thanks, Dr. Phil, for taking my call. You know, I'm not a drug addict but I'm a food addict, and I'm in desperate need of help, and I was wanting to know if you were going to be doing another one of your weight-loss challenge shows and how I could go about applying to get on?
MCGRAW: Well, certainly we are and certainly you can. You just go to DrPhil.com and you can sign up for all kinds of things there, because we like to talk to people who are facing challenges. But, you're quite right -- you can get addicted to food, and interestingly enough, it is one of the most difficult addictions because it is the one substance from which you cannot totally abstain. You can totally abstain from alcohol. You can totally abstain from drugs, but you cannot totally abstain from food. You have to deal with it and manage it, so it's one of the most resistant that you have to deal with.
KING: Emporium, Pennsylvania. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. Dr. Phil, I really enjoy watching your show every day... MCGRAW: Thank you.
CALLER: ...and reading your books, and I would like to know who you would like most to interview that you have not had the opportunity to interview as of yet?
MCGRAW: Oh, wow, who would I like to most interview? Well, I interviewed Larry. That was fun, don't you think?
KING: That was a great hour.
MCGRAW: Yes, that was fun. I think probably -- if this is just fantasy interview -- cliche as it may sound, I think that I would like to interview Jesus Christ, to really learn the secrets of life and the universe. I think that would be a wonderful thing to do. If it was somebody on the face of this earth or somebody in my lifetime -- I lost my dad about 10 years ago. I would love to interview him now about what he thinks about what has transpired in my life and in the world in the last 10 years.
KING: We only have about a minute. What puzzles you the most? What human behavior boggles the mind of Dr. Phil?
MCGRAW: Well, I think the thing probably that really gives me the most consternation is why people make some of the choices they make knowing -- -- that it is not going to bring about a good result. And I can give you the scientific explanation for it, like cigarettes. People know smoking will kill you, and the immediate gratification outweighs the remote long-term penalty. But I still wrestle with how somebody makes those things OK in their mind.
KING: The definition of insanity is repeating the same things you've always done.
MCGRAW: ...and expecting a different result.
KING: That's insanity.
MCGRAW: And I guess it is insane. But, I really wonder -- when people do self-destructive things, at some point they had to, in their minds say, this is OK to do. They had to make it OK. And I find that really difficult to understand.
KING: Thank you, doctor. Always a pleasure.
MCGRAW: Larry, good to see you again.
KING: Dr. Phil, don't forget -- Wednesday night, 8:00 on CBS, his prime time special "Behind the Headlines" with Pat O'Brien.
Speaking of headlines, the defense is about to take over in the Michael Jackson case, and we'll look at that tomorrow night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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