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CNN Larry King Live
16-Year-Old Arrested for Murdering Pamela Vitale
Aired October 20, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 16-year-old male juvenile has been arrested for murder in connection with the killing of Pamela Vitale.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, an arrest in the shocking murder of the wife of high-profile attorney Daniel Horowitz and reports of how he allegedly killed her are both gruesome and bizarre.
We'll talk with friend and colleague of Daniel Horowitz, high- profile defense attorney Mark Geragos. Along with us attorney Steve Mendelson has known Horowitz for 24 years; CNN's Ted Rowlands, he's spoken with two teens familiar with the suspect; Stacey Honowitz, assistant Florida state attorney; and later psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig, all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
A couple of notes before we start, as you know attorney Robert Shapiro was due to be our guest tonight. He will be with us for the full hour tomorrow night, Robert Shapiro, his wife Linell and his son Grant. His other son Brent died from an overdose eleven days ago and the Shapiros, the famed criminal defense attorney, his wife and remaining son will all be with us tomorrow night for the full hour.
And, again, in this arrest story today it is CNN's policy to not name any juvenile suspect. This suspect will not be named during the show. And, remember please all suspects are innocent until proven guilty.
Let's start with Ted Rowlands. You broke this story. What happened? Give us the update.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well tonight, Larry, a 16-year- old is in juvenile hall here in Martinez, California accused of the murder of Pamela Vitale.
Last night investigators served two search warrants, one in Lafayette in the neighborhood of Daniel Horowitz and this young man and one at a relative's house in nearby Walnut Creek.
Following the serving of both those search warrants they arrested this young man in Walnut Creek at a relative's home. Investigators believe that this young man killed Pamela Vitale using a piece of crown molding that presumably was found at the house. They say he bludgeoned her to death and went the extra step, gruesome step, of carving a crucifix style cross into her back. They also believe that he then used the shower at the house in some capacity, whether he just ran the shower to clean up or actually got in it there's no way to tell that they say but he used the shower, attempted some sort of clean up and left.
It was four days of intense investigation. They finally got the break at some point late this week, served those search warrants and they now have this young man in custody and they believe that this young man acted alone and they believe that they definitely have the killer of Pamela Vitale behind bars.
KING: Do you know how they got the break, Ted?
ROWLANDS: We're told that it was through a tip line. They had hundreds and hundreds of tips come in on this case. They had a tip line established and we are told that one of those tips led them to at least start their investigation in that direction and then things started to fall in place obviously and once those search warrants were served they had enough evidence to go ahead and pull the trigger and make the arrest.
KING: And did they say anything about motive?
ROWLANDS: That's the bizarre thing, the motive to murder. They believe that somehow Pamela Vitale caught this young man either on the property or near the property doing something.
They believe that there was some sort of confrontation according to investigators and that led to the altercation. Whether she threatened to call police and he followed her into her home remains unclear.
They don't know how he got into the house and what led him to take the extra step of having a confrontation with a 52-year-old woman in your neighborhood to bludgeoning her to death and then carving this gruesome cross in her back and trying to clean up. It is bizarre. A 16-year-old boy they believe is responsible for all of this.
KING: Ted Rowlands, later we'll go to -- Ted Rowland spoke with two of the suspect's friends and we'll get to that in a while.
Steve Mendelson has known Daniel Horowitz for 24 years, long time friend and colleague. You're an attorney too Steve?
STEVE MENDELSON, ATTORNEY: Yes, I am.
KING: OK.
MENDELSON: We've shared offices. I've been 30 feet away from him for 24 years.
KING: And you attended the memorial service for Pamela today right?
MENDELSON: I did. It was a lovely service.
KING: Did Daniel say anything about this arrest?
MENDELSON: Only most peripherally in the sense that it's time to put it behind us.
KING: Was he shocked by the age of the boy?
MENDELSON: Yes, there had been no -- both by the age and who he was. There had been no idea that it would be this person and it's horrible that a 16-year-old would do this.
KING: Did he say if he knew the boy?
MENDELSON: I didn't ask him that and he didn't say.
KING: Do you know if he did?
MENDELSON: I do not know that.
KING: OK. Do you know the boy?
MENDELSON: I do not. Some of Dan's friends know the boy.
KING: Mark Geragos, what do you make of this?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's interesting all the speculation that's been going on for the last three days as to who it might have been.
KING: They were hanging another guy.
GERAGOS: Yes, there was another guy who was on a very short list of suspects. He's probably...
KING: How many convicted him?
GERAGOS: Exactly. He was convicted in absentia and I don't want to pre-judge obviously this young man. Any time you hear about a 16- year-old who is accused of murder it's an awful thing and obviously you're not naming him and it's always shocking when you think about somebody who is that age and that size.
I mean apparently this is a young man who is 5'5", 110 pounds, so he's not of great stature and apparently no indications whatsoever that this young man has got a prior history, so that somewhat comes out of nowhere I suppose.
KING: Kind of (INAUDIBLE).
GERAGOS: Well, I think that there's a lot more to this story that we don't know obviously and I think that will come out when and if they do a fitness hearing. They've got two ways to go in this state.
The D.A. can either file directly in adult court or because after we passed the proposition here called Prop 21 they can also, if they want, they can do a fitness hearing in juvenile court and decide whether or not he should be tried in juvenile or adult court.
KING: Stacey Honowitz I know that's not the case in Florida but under the California circumstances as a prosecutor what would you do?
STACEY HONOWITZ, ASST. FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY: Well, I think this is a no-brainer, Larry. This would be a direct file as an adult. I think Mark's right. I think that there's a lot of things, there are a lot of facts we don't know about.
There's more to this than meets the eye and I think any time you have a gruesome murder like this, no matter how old the person is it's horrific but especially when it's a 16-year-old boy.
It's my understanding from some of the information that's been out today, some of the newspaper articles that have been out, there has been some speculation as to his behavior in school this child.
So, I think that's why a lot of these things are going to come forward as the investigation goes on. There's no prior arrest but there's some unusual behavior at school and I guess we're going to all have to hear about it.
KING: Steve Mendelson, what was the service like today?
MENDELSON: It was not a religious service. Dan led the service. He spoke of Pamela and of his love for her and then members of the family and close friends of Pamela spoke and it was extremely moving.
I have known Pamela ever since the very beginning and yet I found out a lot of things about her, wonderful things that I hadn't heard before. And, Dan asked me if it was OK and I told him, "Dan it was perfect. It couldn't have been better" and it was a wonderful experience.
KING: Do you speculate in your own mind the bizarre circumstances, Steve, of the death?
MENDELSON: Well, I have been told by Dan some of the things about the death and I don't want to reveal those because the prosecution has to take place but just the overall bizarre-ness of a 16-year-old kid apparently involved in some kind of credit card scam doing this to somebody is just overwhelming to me.
KING: We'll have more on this strange story in a moment.
And, don't forget the Shapiro family tomorrow night, Bob Shapiro, the criminal defense attorney whose son died of an overdose just eleven days ago.
Before we go to break, let's go to the CNN Weather Center for Chad Myers and an update on Wilma the terrific, right, Wilma is something.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes. Boy, it sure it, a category four, 150 miles per hour. By tomorrow morning it will be back up to a category five again, over 165 with its sights set right on Cozumel and Cancun right there. This will be a devastating blow to that resort area there all the way from Tulum right up through Playa del Carmen and then right up.
There's the island of Cozumel right there. Anybody living there needs to take shelter now. You need to get away from this storm. Winds will be 150 to 160 along the shore, along the beach, along the hotel zone. Windows just aren't going to withstand that. You need to be away from the shore. You need to be moving inland now before it's too late.
The wind is already gusting to about 50 to 60 miles per hour there and at that point in time water coming onshore as well with the storm surge for Cozumel and also into Cancun.
There is the storm. It looks like it makes landfall in Florida sometimes during the day Tuesday, maybe even as early as Monday and Sunday, depending on where you are and depending if this thing slows down. I'll update you why it might slow down in the next half hour -- Larry.
KING: One other quick thing, Chad. Is this a definite hitting Florida?
MYERS: We have 13 computer models, Larry. Twelve of them hit Florida. Some of them, some of them very close to Marathon, Florida and now the very latest ones that we're just running as far north as Tampa and that's a little bit of a concern because Tampa has been kind of out of the what we've been talking about area. It's always been Fort Myers. It could be shifting north.
KING: More from Chad Myers later who is with us around the clock on this.
And we'll be right back. We'll be taking your calls in a while on the circumstances today in San Francisco. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL HOROWITZ, WIFE BLUDGEONED TO DEATH: She fought really hard and I think she almost won.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Why do you say that?
HOROWITZ: Because that person pushed her all the way back, which I saw that had happened and then where she fell...
GRACE: You could tell by where the furniture was that...
HOROWITZ: Yes.
GRACE: ...something had been moved back.
HOROWITZ: Yes, but where she was struck and where she fell was right by the front of the door, which tells me... GRACE: That she had been back and came forward.
HOROWITZ: ...she pushed that person back and that person used an object which the police say is a blunt force object.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: That clip you just saw was from Nancy Grace's exclusive interview the other night with Daniel Horowitz.
Again, the Shapiro family will be with us tomorrow night.
Ted Rowlands had the chance to talk to one of the friends or one of the classmates of this suspect. Let's listen to that and then we'll ask Ted about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just wore a black trench coat, all black pants, black shirt, spikey like backpack and stuff like that, painted his fingernails black. He just like definitely stood out in front of like anybody in the school. Like when he walked by everyone like talked about him like he definitely did not blend in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Ted Rowlands were they saying that the suspect was kind of like sort of a devil worshiper or something or what?
ROWLANDS: Well, you know, one of these gothic kids that, you know, wears the full black. And I saw a yearbook photo from last year and, you know, it is a bit startling when you see him when they opened up the page is he, I mean that dark hair and kind of, you know, a scary sort of look about him.
That said, you know, he's a 16-year-old kid. A lot of 16-year- old kids wear all kinds of crazy things and a lot of -- most of them are just wonderful kids. But according to his friends he was kind of a loner but wore this garb to school every day.
And then in the yearbook last year he had a little inscription saying that you people can basically, paraphrasing, the people can criticize what I wear all they want, we're never going to change us types.
You know what that has to do with this murder who knows? But that's the type of kid that we're talking about and that's what his friends have said about him that he was just one of these gothic kids.
KING: Mark, what does it indicate if anything to you?
GERAGOS: Nothing. I don't think you can make anything out of that. As Ted says, you can go into virtually any high school anywhere and you're going to see a whole bunch of kids that dress like that. You're going to even go into any city anywhere and you can find kids who dress differently than other kids.
And, the kids that are going through adolescence have these problems all the time, whether it's their socialization, whether it's their maturation. I don't think you can ever read anything in to that.
I just think that there's more to this that we just don't know about. I don't think that it has anything to do with the way he dresses or that he paints his fingernails or anything else. There's something else going on here and there's more to the story.
KING: Stacey Honowitz, wouldn't someone at 16 who commits something like this have given some sort of prior indication?
HONOWITZ: Boy, Larry, that's a tough question. I mean you have to look at all these other incidents that took place. I mean look at Columbine. Look at all the school shootings. The same issues came out. People said did they have priors? Did they have bad behavior? Were they loners?
You never know and I think people that saw him walking in the school all in black with nail polish on, dark hair, the Goth look, I'm sure everybody behind his back whispered there's this scary guy. Oh, my God. He probably looks like a killer but you just never know.
I think you got to look at other incidents that have taken place in our country in the last couple of years. Those kids didn't have anything, any bad acts, any prior history either.
KING: Steve, what to you knowledge, sketchy as it may be for all of us, is the credit card story?
MENDELSON: Well, I had heard that I believe he and some friends wanted to get into a marijuana raising operation, got some credit cards stolen and had stuff shipped to Dan and Pamela's address and he went there expecting to pick it up somehow. It sounds crazy to me but expecting to pick it up and then it wasn't there and got into this argument with Pam.
KING: And he was going to pick up marijuana? You can order marijuana by mail?
MENDELSON: Not yet, Larry, not yet, equipment and supplies.
KING: Oh, supplies.
MENDELSON: Lights, you know, pumps for water, electrical things that kind of stuff.
KING: Now how did that come out Ted?
ROWLANDS: Well, that hasn't come out. That is sort of an extrapolation.
KING: How do we know this? ROWLANDS: Well, we don't know this. This was one of the extrapolations of some report. What I can tell you from a source that I had is that this kid was on the radar of law enforcement in this area because of a credit card scheme that he and a friend were involved in supposedly.
I have not been able to confirm that they had the marijuana growing stuff being sent to the Horowitz home but I have confirmed that he was on their radar. They say there are two separate incidents and they're not at this point connecting the two together.
Whether the two had something to do with he and Pamela meeting up they believe that for some reason they had a chance meeting and that it wasn't anything more than that.
One thing I can tell you about this young man talking to his friends is that he and I don't know if this has anything to do with it either but it is something and we're all wondering what could lead a 16-year-old to do this, his sister a few years ago was killed in an auto accident.
One of his friends said that after that he saw a dramatic change in this young man that that's when he started to see his personality change and he dropped off from playing baseball at all and got into sort of a different type of lifestyle; again that's just a fact and take what you will from it.
KING: When we come back we'll ask Mark and Steve what's it like to represent a juvenile accused of a crime and we'll ask Stacey what's it like to prosecute them? And, Dr. Ludwig will join us.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last year when I was a junior it seemed like he kind of lightened up a little bit with his apparel but he still definitely stood out and by then everyone knew who he was.
And, yes, like I didn't really hear about him really being like a troublemaker or anything like that but I mean, yes, I don't know he's just a really gothic kid and everyone knew who he was just because of his apparel. Like when you heard the name you were just like, oh, that kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Before we ask our lawyers and prosecutors about prosecuting and defending youth, let's bring in Dr. Robi Ludwig, the famed psychotherapist, a friend of Daniel Horowitz. She's appeared on many TV discussion panels with him. What's your read on this case now, these developments, Robi?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, well again we're trying to make sense out of, you know, very little information. It is interesting to me that he lost a sibling. I wonder if that's when he started wearing black. Does it have to do with unresolved grief and anger? Was he trying to show that he's anti-society or separate himself or show and indicate in the only way that he knew how that he was a kid in trouble?
You have to remember that adolescents don't have the same words. They can't put their feelings into words the way adults do so they very often do it symbolically. Were these symbols missed? Because it does sound like he was a troubled child.
I believe he got a GED so something happened where he wasn't able to stay in high school. This was a lot. This was a kid with a lot of problems that escalated to the worst possible scenario.
KING: What's it like to defend a youngster, Mark? You defended someone charged with murder right?
GERAGOS: I've got one that I currently represent, one young man that I currently represent who is charged with murder. I have gone to trial actually with four different young men who have been charged with murder who were juveniles at the time.
KING: What do you face when they're juveniles?
GERAGOS: Well, you know, it's a completely different situation when you deal with a young boy who is charged with murder because it's always been my experience that from 13 to 17 at least young men do not have the impulse control.
They don't have the same kinds of abilities to regulate the way that they would once they get through that age but having said that I'm not here to convict this young man who has been charged.
KING: Don't want to do that.
GERAGOS: Obviously there's a presumption and I find that to be tough. I mean one of the kids that I've represented is a kid who now we were able to get in probation on the case. He was charged with murder and he's just completed his probation and has been an assistant running around for me, working for me for the last three years. So, there's always more to the story I find when it involves a juvenile.
KING: Stacey, what's it like? Have you prosecuted juveniles?
HONOWITZ: Yes, I prosecuted juveniles for sexual battery, really horrific rape cases. A student who raped a teacher in the high school, when everybody left shut the door, planned it all out, told people that he planned it out and really, you know, when they walk into the courtroom and the charges are so serious and you see what went into this crime there really is no difference for a prosecutor except for the fact that there are some circumstances where there can be some mitigators because of the youth.
But in serious cases like a rape case or when he tied this woman up and put her in a closet and did all the things that an adult would have done then he wasn't treated any differently in the courtroom. KING: Steve, has Daniel represented youth?
MENDELSON: Yes, he has. Yes, he has.
KING: Have you?
MENDELSON: Yes. I do civil law. I don't do criminal law. But in my experience in civil law, sometimes youth are very interesting because they will tell the truth in an almost naive way and it remains to be seen what the suspect will do here.
KING: Are they harder to defend do you think, Steve?
MENDELSON: I really couldn't comment on that. I don't think Dan's...
KING: Are they harder, Mark?
GERAGOS: I don't think so. I actually -- I actually think it's more challenging and it's one of the reasons I take some of these cases is because it's more rewarding in a lot of -- in a lot of ways and when it's bad enough to have somebody who is charged with a heinous crime generally these are kids who I think have a redeeming quality to them and that can still be salvaged.
And one of the kids who works for me is I think living proof of that and so I think that ultimately at the end of the day if you're doing criminal defense work you want to believe in redemption and you want to believe in second chances and so you've got that.
KING: Harder to treat Robi?
LUDWIG: Sometimes, although if you get children early enough then it can be tremendously rewarding because they can channel some of their aggression into a productive way if they're able to find a purpose, if you work with family members on how they can best help the children.
I mean very often there are messages going on in the family if there's a lot of violence going on that impact a child and how they respond to other people in the world around them.
KING: Isn't it mind boggling for you, Stacey, when you do have to prosecute a youth though?
HONOWITZ: Well, I think it's mind boggling for anybody to have to see a youngster standing in a courtroom facing charges where he could possibly be facing life in prison.
And sometimes in prosecuting these cases it's interesting the crime is so horrific you can't believe, well you can believe it when you hear it, yet when it comes to trial, you know, the one thing that some defense attorneys try to do is make this individual look very childlike in the courtroom so that a jury might look at it and say how could this be possible? How could this youngster have committed this crime? So, it is a very interesting dichotomy where you go in the courtroom and the person that you're prosecuting is a juvenile.
KING: True Mark?
GERAGOS: Yes, but the problem is, is that you also have the opposite. You've got prosecutors who tend to pile on and, you know, the case, the last one that I actually went to trial on was in November of '03 and they had next to my client who was 16 I think at the time of the alleged murder and he was never convicted of that. It ended up by a plea after a hung jury to manslaughter. There was a 14- year-old girl who weighed about 80 pounds that they were prosecuting as an accomplice.
And you looked at her and you said what the heck are you doing prosecuting this girl? We're facing a special circumstance life without sentence when she was 14 at the time and her crime was to just be driving the other two gentlemen who were there.
KING: What can a convicted 16-year-old of murder get in California?
GERAGOS: Life without parole if they allege the right type of special circumstances they can get a lot.
KING: Can't get death though?
GERAGOS: Cannot.
KING: We'll take a break, be back, get you an update on Wilma and your phone calls. We'll reintroduce the panel too.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOROWITZ: Every day no matter how hard her day was or what went on there was always love in her eyes and faith and I'm not just saying phony things. I mean there was just love. You have a picture of her. Every picture that you ever have of her has love and I came home every day to that, every single day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Before we get back to our panel and your phone calls, let's check in with Chad Myers, our CNN severe weather expert at the CNN Weather Center, and this certainly fits that concept, severe weather, right?
MYERS: Certainly does. Especially, Larry, especially right now for Cozumel and Cancun. Those two areas all the way down even into Tulum really under the gun. We are already seeing rain in the Florida Bay and the Florida Keys across Havana even into the Florida straits.
Now, I'm able to dial in to the Cancun radar. It's a different color, but it doesn't really matter. There's Cancun. There's the isle of Cozumel. And look at this area. This is a large band of severe weather that's going to be coming into Cozumel in the next hour or so. This wind here probably around 60. The next band here, probably around 80. And then 90, 100, probably 120, and the eyewall itself now, 150 miles per hour.
And that eyewall is still traveling right toward the Cozumel/Cancun area, right on up into (INAUDIBLE), that entire area there as we know as the Mexican Riviera.
Could make a little bit turn to the left, and then possibly that turn to the right in about 48 hours. That's how long it's actually going to take.
The eyewall becoming better defined now. You can actually see the eye. It's a big circle, 35 miles across. That circular forecast to come across Cozumel, and then make the right-hand turn all the way into the Florida Gulf Coast. Look at this, all of these computer models, 13 different lines on here, 13 different opinions from 13 different computers. But all of them over Cancun, and then some of them north and some of them south of Fort Myers, the official forecast track, that big red line right there from about Naples on up to about West Palm. Back to you.
KING: Thanks, Chad Myers. And Chad will be reporting more on the "NEWSNIGHT" edition with Aaron Brown and Anderson Cooper at the top of the hour.
Let's reintroduce our panel. Here in Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, defense attorney, friend and colleague of Daniel Horowitz. In San Francisco, Steve Mendelson, who's known Daniel for 24 years, longtime friend and colleague. He attended the memorial service for Pamela today. In Martinez, California, Ted Rowlands, who broke the story of the arrest of the suspect. And in Miami, Stacey Honowitz, the assistant Florida state attorney. And in New York is Dr. Robi Ludwig, the psychotherapist.
And let's go to some calls. Saratoga, California, hello.
CALLER: Hello. Thank you for taking the call. My question is for your panel. You talk about redeeming qualities and second chances for the children, or the perpetrators, which is great. How do you prevent such a thing from happening, if your child, your niece, your nephew is only wearing black, is painting their nails black, and seems to be reclusive and exhibiting odd behavior? How do you prevent the crime from happening?
KING: Dr. Ludwig?
LUDWIG: Well, the best thing parents can do is have close communication with their children, so that it isn't event-driven, just when you notice something's wrong, but that you have an ongoing relationship and create an environment where your child feels that they can talk to you. Of course, it's more complicated when you have an adolescent, but if you feel as a parent or if a parent feels overwhelmed, then it's certainly OK to include professionals, and to talk to teachers and people in the school to see what you can do to help your child.
KING: Steve, you're a friend of Daniel. I'd imagine he's represented youth. We've said he's had.
MENDELSON: Yes.
KING: I imagine at times he's argued to the court for leniency.
MENDELSON: Yes.
KING: In cases for a conviction. What do you think he might say here?
MENDELSON: Well, in this case, it would be very hard for him to argue leniency, but if it was like this case, he would argue leniency. He would argue second chance. He would argue that you should understand the background that led the boy to this position, and the hopes for rehabilitation.
KING: Now, do you think he might, Mark, take that tact, assuming...
GERAGOS: No, but I think -- I think that he's going to be more willing and open to arguments that most people would kind of reject in his position.
KING: Because of the past?
GERAGOS: Because of his past. Anybody who's in the criminal justice system, who sees what happens, who deals with these kids and understands, you just can't classify. These people who are in the system, whether it's an adult or a child, it's rare that somebody's pure evil. Most people have a story to tell and have some redeeming qualities.
KING: Stacey, would you agree, if you had this boy and had a conviction, how you would deal with Mr. Horowitz?
HONOWITZ: Well, I've got to tell you something. I respect Mark's opinions all the time, but I have to disagree with him on this.
GERAGOS: I expected that, though, Stacey. I really did. Most prosecutors, you can't do it because you have got to demonize the people in order to prosecute them. How do you prosecute these 80- or 100-pound people, these little munchkins?
HONOWITZ: No, no, no, I'm not even talking about -- because munchkins can commit crimes, believe it or not.
GERAGOS: I understand that, but munchkins aren't fully developed...
HONOWITZ: Munchkins can be evil.
GERAGOS: ... and they're not adults. And yes, some munchkins can be evil, but at the same time, warehousing somebody for 60 years doesn't strike me normally to be the (INAUDIBLE) approach.
HONOWITZ: I wasn't even -- I got to tell you something, I wasn't even alluding to the fact that I have -- but you know, that's my role, that I have to put everyone behind bars for life, you know. Sometimes it's necessary, and sometimes there are mitigating factors.
What I was talking about was with regard to Daniel. I mean, I don't know him that well. I have certainly been on a bunch of panels with him. But I don't know how lenient he's going to be. I think it might be different, just because he's defended these guys in the past. It's so close to home. It's his spouse. I don't know if it hits that close how he's going to react. I wouldn't be so sure to say that he might be one that would expect leniency for something like this. That's what I was disagreeing with you about.
KING: Steve, what would you guess?
MENDELSON: I would think, unless a lot of time passes and changes, he's not feeling in the mood for leniency.
GERAGOS: Well, I would agree with that right now, nobody would be.
KING: Bay City, Texas. Hello?
CALLER: Hello.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: Thank you for taking my call.
KING: Sure.
CALLER: I have been listening to this case since it happened. And I have been wondering and never could find an answer or never heard it -- normally when there is a death like that, they want to give the husband a lie detector test. And then also, the guy that lived on the property, the one that Mr. Horowitz supposedly helped, did they give him a lie detector test?
KING: Stacey, is that common?
HONOWITZ: Yeah, I mean, you heard Dan, who was giving many interviews, and he said listen, if the police come to me, I'm willing to cooperate. I'll take a lie detector test. In this case, they had enough leads. They had these tips that they didn't need him to take a lie detector test. They didn't rule him out right away, but he would have cooperated, and they had these tips leading them to this person. They got the search warrants. They went into the homes. They obviously found wounds. This guy's body was so telling and so revealing, because evidently, he had wounds all over his body -- scratches on his leg, scratches on his arm. And that was probably one of the reasons why the arrest was made -- based on other evidence, too. But there was cooperation on behalf of Dan Horowitz. I don't know about the other guy that was on the property. KING: We'll take a break. And reminding you that tomorrow night, Bob Shapiro, who was due to be our guest tonight, but because of this breaking story, we'll be with us tomorrow night. The famed criminal defense attorney, whose son, Brent, died of an overdose 11 days ago. It was the most tragic funeral I have ever attended. Bob will be on to discuss about being the father and having a kid who had a problem and how he might be able to help other parents. Linell, the mother, will be here, and so will the younger brother Grant. That's tomorrow night.
Back with more calls right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. Newport, Washington. Hello? Hello? Newport, are you there? Newport?
CALLER: Yes, hi, Larry.
KING: Please, speak up. Go ahead.
CALLER: Yes, I was wondering if they thought the possibility that maybe the boy was lying in wait and saw Dan leave. And came in and confronted her and she was trying to get away from him rather than opening the door for him. That's what all the reports say is that she opened the door. And I was just wondering.
KING: How do we know anything really, Ted? What do the police say?
ROWLANDS: Well, I could tell you a source within the police department, someone from law enforcement that's familiar with the investigation, told me that he believes that there was a chance confrontation between the two of them. Whether that was outside the home, if she was chasing him off the property and yelled at him. And then he followed her in, like this woman is suggesting. Or if he got to the door and she opened it.
But I don't know. I don't know quite frankly if they know exactly how he got into the house, because it didn't appear to be a forced entry situation. Whether he was chasing her back or whether he -- she opened the door. I don't think that they know that at that point. But it's certainly a possibility what she's suggesting.
KING: This came, Stacey, on a tip. Is that the way a lot of these crimes are solved?
HONOWITZ: Well, I don't know what the percentage is. I think they got very luck in this case. They had some people that they were looking at. But I think a tip coming in on this, when they kept saying it was a wide-open investigation is very lucky. Occasionally, it does happen. But I couldn't tell you what the percentage is, where we can crack a case based on a tip.
KING: Round Lake, Illinois, hello?
CALLER: Yes. I was wondering if alcohol or drugs played a role in this murder?
KING: Do we know, Steve?
MENDELSON: Not that I know of, no.
KING: Does anyone know? Nope, no way of knowing at this point. Campbell -- wait a minute, do you know, Ted?
ROWLANDS: I don't know if this young man was under the influence of alcohol or drugs at time of the incident. The only possible drug activity would be this story that there was some sort of a marijuana growing thing going on. But I don't think if they know if in kid was under the influence of anything.
KING: Campbell, Texas, hello?
CALLER: Hello?
KING: Yes.
CALLER: Yes. Hello, Larry.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: Hell, Larry. I was just wondering if the perpetrator may have gone through a doggy door. It looks like there was a doggy door in an entrance door?
KING: Well, there just no way of knowing. This is so speculative now. This is one of the problems, Mark.
GERAGOS: With discussing these cases, because we're talking about...
KING: On the shows because we don't know.
GERAGOS: We don't know. We don't have access to the police reports. We also start assuming that this kid is the kid who did it. We start psychoanalyzing it. We don't know that. So that makes that a real problem, I think.
I can tell you one thing, though, if there's an arrest, if there is a 16-year-old boy involved, there's a lot more of this story than we know.
KING: Why.
GERAGOS: So far what we've been told doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There's some other connection. The idea of a chance encounter, I think in leading to this kind of a -- what's reported to be a brutal slaying -- I don't think -- I think that's rare. I think it's a lot more rarer than you would imagine.
KING: Do you agree, Steve?
MENDELSON: Yes, I do. KING: There's a lot more we have to learn. Would you agree, Stacey?
HONOWITZ: I think a lot more we have to learn. I wouldn't hang my hat on saying it was such a chance encounter. There was some information saying that the mailboxes down where Dan lived in a couple of the neighbors, that there had been some allegations made by the neighbors that their mail had been stolen and that's what's leading them to believe that he was involved in this credit card scam. Maybe he though -- I'm not going to speculate, but this chance meeting, I wouldn't hang my hat on that it was just a chance meeting.
KING: We'll take a break. And we'll be right back with more. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: Although we have a suspect in custody, the investigation is still going on. Much more work still needs to be done.
As I speak right now, we are still interviewing people. Our crime lab is hard at work. We're analyzing evidence and waiting for test results to come back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Steve, before we take the next call, did we know what's going to happen with the house? Is he going live in it? Sell it? What?
MENDELSON: His initial reaction, what he's said a few times since then is that he's not going to live there. It's too bound up with his love for Pamela and his dreams. And at least right now, that's his feeling. It's possible he would change his mind. But I think that's where he's going to be.
KING: Will they finish it?
MENDELSON: Yes, they will finish it. Yes.
KING: Boca Raton, Florida. Hello?
CALLER: Hi, Larry King. I think you're absolutely amazing. A question is, where were the parents of this 16-year-old boy? And why was he picked up over his relatives?
KING: Is that where he was picked up? Is that where he was picked up, Ted?
ROWLANDS: Yes. He was picked up in a relative's house in an adjacent city here. Walnut Creek is where he was picked up. It's right next to Lafayette where he lived apparently. And where Daniel Horowitz' estate there. What he was doing over there and that relationship, I don't have any answers to that.
KING: Has the press -- any of the press rushed to the parents? ROWLANDS: People went to their house in Lafayette, yeah. People -- the press went there right away. There's no comment, as you might imagine, from the distraught relatives.
If you think about this family, what they've been through, they lost a girl two years ago in a traffic accident which got some publicity here in the San Francisco Bay area and now this where they're son is accused of such a horrific crime. You can only imagine what they're going through.
KING: Dr. Ludwig, that family will need counseling, will they not?
LUDWIG: Oh, absolutely. And I'm sure they're feeling tremendously guilty. I'm sure they're placing the blame on themselves for missing the signs. And we all want to speculate about what happened, because it's very difficult to live with something that doesn't make any sense. So there's a need for everybody to answer these questions to this story, which doesn't make sense in a logical way at all.
KING: Port Richey, Florida, hello.
CALLER: Yeah, hi, good evening, Larry. My question is to Steve. My condolences to the Horowitz family. Could I ask Steve, was there any security on the property or in the house?
MENDELSON: Well, there's various forms of security. First of all, they had German shepherd dogs. And they do have -- it's just very remote. The doors generally were not locked is part of the problem. And they, both Dan and Pamela, knew how to use guns and had guns, partially because they perceived a small need for them, and partially because they believed in that.
KING: Well, Mark, present company excepted, what kind of attorney would you look for in this? Veteran San Francisco lawyer? Someone who didn't know Mr. Horowitz?
GERAGOS: Well, probably my guess is, is that they're going to find somebody who -- who knows, may, for all intents and purposes, it may be the public defender who may get assigned to this case. The public defender may declare a conflict for a variety of reasons.
If you're the parents, you know, I don't -- I don't know that they are feeling so much guilt. I tend to see that most parents in this situation, the immediate reaction is denial.
KING: He didn't do it.
GERAGOS: Yeah, that he didn't do it. I don't find -- generally when the parents come into my office with a juvenile, it's, you know, it's my son, my son. And he couldn't have done this. He's a good boy. You know, just because he was a little different, doesn't mean that he did it. And I don't know that they're at a point where they're going to embrace this, in terms of being guilty.
KING: Stacey, is the prosecution involved now in this process?
HONOWITZ: Yeah, absolutely. As soon as the investigation began, I'm assuming that they were in touch with a district attorney out there, who was helping them get the search warrants. I mean, that's imperative that they got some of these warrants. They had forensic evidence that had to go to the lab. So once this turns in -- once the event took place, the murder took place, and police got involved, and all of the investigators got involved, the first thing they did was probably call up the district attorney to help guide them as to where to go and to help them get these warrants. So they're very much involved in this case.
KING: Mount Hope, West Virginia. Hello?
CALLER: Yes, hello, Larry. It's an honor to talk to you.
KING: Thank you.
CALLER: My question is about DNA evidence. Do you know if they have cleaned out from under Pamela's fingernails? And if they did, how long will it take to get the answers back to see if it is a match?
GERAGOS: They do. They do immediately at the time of the autopsy here in California, almost all coroners will do fingernail scrapings of some kind. They also will look for any kind of -- and they'll preserve those samples. They'll take those samples, send it over for forensic testing.
We talked the other night, I -- it was my opinion that that's what they were waiting for. And then when you combine that -- we also said the other night that they're looking for a suspect who would have had scratches or blood type evidence that would have linked the two of them. And sounds like -- yeah, because she fought back and it was a struggle. And anytime you have a struggle, there's going to be some kind of DNA left behind.
KING: And you said you have to leave us a little early?
GERAGOS: I do. I'm actually going to speak to an organization that mentors youth who've been in the California Youth Authority, to prevent recidivism. So...
KING: These are people who have gone...?
GERAGOS: These are kids who have gone through the system and have now graduated, been through a program where they've been mentored and have not gotten back into trouble, and they got an event tonight where they graduate.
KING: Thank you, Mark.
GERAGOS: Thank you, Larry.
KING: And we'll continue our remaining moments with Steve Mendelson, Ted Rowlands, Stacey Honowitz and Dr. Robi Ludwig right after this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOROWITZ: This is where Pamela would sit. When she would show the house, she would say, this is where I'm going to sit with the kids and the grandkids and talk to them about love. That's what she would say about this space here. That's her space right here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Let's grab another call. Austin, Texas. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. I'm curious to know if your panel believes that since this tragedy occurred, if Mr. Horowitz acted like what they call a typical grieving husband? Because, you know, such a big deal is always made about the fact, oh, they didn't act like they were grieving, they weren't sobbing and crying and shaking. I haven't seen him do that, and I'm just curious as to the panel's opinion.
KING: Steve.
MENDELSON: Well, he's been -- done that a little bit on camera. But Dan's done a lot of that off the camera. A tremendous amount. But as his training as a lawyer, one of the things he'd fall back upon is something familiar, and that's analyzing the evidence and analyzing what's happened. But he's grieving tremendously.
KING: You understand that, Robi?
LUDWIG: Yeah, there's no one way to grieve. Everybody grieves in their own unique way. But from what I have seen of Dan, he's come off as remarkably authentic and upset, and many people who've seen him believe him. That they weren't quick to jump to the assumption the spouse did it. He came off as genuinely caring and loving of his wife.
KING: And indeed, the Shapiro family will be here tomorrow night. They just lost their son 11 days ago.
Akron, Ohio, hello.
CALLER: Hello, Larry King.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: Hi. I'm a retired juvenile probation officer. And your panel is of course right on target with what they do with juveniles. I was wondering, there's so much investigating with juveniles, previous to a hearing. Do they use everything, or could some of this stuff be prejudicial? You know, such as dressing in black, and was he wrapped up with other agencies such as...
KING: Good question. Next time we do something, you call back. Thirty seconds, Stacey. HONOWITZ: Yeah, that's a great question. Absolutely. The prosecution takes all of that into account. Not all of that evidence would be admissible, but certainly in charging certain crimes, in investigating the background and knowing how to proceed, all of that background history becomes extremely relevant in a prosecution of a juvenile.
KING: Thank you, Stacey Honowitz, Ted Rowlands, doing a fantastic job, right on top of this, broke this story. Steve Mendelson, we appreciate you coming on as a longtime friend. Mark Geragos had to leave us, and of course as always, Dr. Robi Ludwig.
Now, tomorrow night, we're going to have an extraordinary show, and I'm going to do something I don't often do. I urge you to watch tomorrow night and to tell -- if you know any other parents, to please watch tomorrow night. We're going to try to help a lot of people. Attorney Robert Shapiro, his wife Linell, his son Grant will come on to talk about the late Brent Shapiro. That's tomorrow night.
"NEWSNIGHT" is next. Aaron Brown and Anderson Cooper. And there they are, Anderson in New Orleans, Aaron in New York.
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