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CNN Larry King Live
Update on Natalee Holloway Investigation
Aired February 23, 2006 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TED ROWLANDS, GUEST HOST: Tonight, Natalee Holloway's parents speak out.
Now that the chief suspect in her disappearance, Joran Van Der Sloot, has talked, nearly nine months after their beautiful daughter vanished in Aruba, Natalee's mom, Beth Holloway Twitty, and her dad, Dave Holloway, talk about trying to keep hope alive. And they will tell us about their high-stakes lawsuit against Joran Van Der Sloot and his father -- that and much more next on LARRY KING LIVE.
And hello, everybody. I'm Ted Rowlands, sitting in tonight in for Larry.
Joining us, besides Beth Holloway Twitty and Dave Holloway here, right off the bat, we're going to talk to John Kelly, the attorney for Beth and Dave Holloway; plus, here in Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, defense attorney; and Mary Fulginiti, former federal prosecutor, as well.
Recently, the Dutch teen, Joran Van Der Sloot, the chief suspect in the case against Natalee Holloway, did an interview for ABC's "Primetime Live." Throughout the hour, we are going to show you clips from that interview and get reaction from Natalee Holloway's parents. It was an extensive interview, and we have a number of clips from it.
We are going to start by taking a look at one of those. This is Joran Van Der Sloot talking about leaving Natalee Holloway on the beach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "PRIMETIME LIVE")
CHRIS CUOMO, ABC NEWS (voice-over): According to Joran Van Der Sloot, after a romantic encounter, he leaves Natalee Holloway sleepily staring at the stars on a beach in Aruba.
(on camera): Did it seem like a wrong thing to do, leaving a girl on the beach like that?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: At that moment in time, for me, it wasn't the wrong thing. But, I mean, it's not something a real man would do. It's not normal. It's not right at all.
CUOMO: But you did it?
VAN DER SLOOT: Yes. CUOMO (voice-over): But, as dawn breaks in Aruba, Natalee is gone. She and her classmates are scheduled to return to Alabama that morning. But Natalee apparently never made it back to her hotel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Beth Holloway, you see that. I know you saw a few other clips played throughout the day today, but you have not seen the entire interview.
What do you think when you see Joran Van Der Sloot and you see him basically pleading his case, saying he did nothing wrong here?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: You know, that is what he has done all along, though, so, I mean, it doesn't surprise me.
But I think that what now everyone can witness is, is, every time Joran lies, there are just more that evolve. And, you know, we are -- I -- I don't even think we're close to the bottom of the story yet.
ROWLANDS: What do you think happened? He's claiming that he left your daughter on the beach, after being with her for a number of hours.
She wanted, he claims, to have sex with him. He says he didn't have sex with her because he didn't have a condom, and he never has sex without a condom. And, for whatever reason, he leaves her on the beach.
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, I think, as far as, you know, Joran saying that he left Natalee on the beach, I -- I think that the reason why he continually changes who picked him up that night at the fisherman's hut is because, you know, that -- that is not what happened.
You know, there were some witnesses that came forward this summer that nailed the three suspects all in the same car, near the pond, which is across the street from the Marriott. So, I just don't think that Joran has given us anywhere near the correct version of -- of how it ended that night.
ROWLANDS: Do you have a feeling of how it ended? Do you have any one theory that you think happened to your daughter, or are you just not sure?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: No, I'm not sure. I know it doesn't look good.
I mean, why would Joran have -- have fabricated a story so early, when we arrived on the island? And why would he have, you know, gone ahead and implicated the two security guards, or had his father or someone in the police department to help him to do that. I mean, Joran wouldn't have had -- wouldn't have had knowledge of Mickey John and Abraham Jones.
So, you know, it doesn't -- you know, everything shows that it's -- does not look good at all for the outcome of -- of what they did with Natalee that night.
ROWLANDS: You recently filed a lawsuit, and served a lawsuit on not only Joran, but his father, claiming that Joran was a predator. And you claim that he sexually assaulted your daughter. Do you think he killed her as well?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: You know, I have never -- I have never gone there. I -- you know, I -- I have tried to stick with the admissions that Joran has given us.
As I said earlier, I mean, it's just -- it does not look good for Natalee, what they did with her, or why would they have fabricated this story so early on?
John Kelly is the attorney for Beth and Dave Holloway.
Tell us about this lawsuit and what you're trying to gain from it.
JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY AND DAVE HOLLOWAY: Well, a couple things, Ted.
Short term, we want to show the Van Der Sloots that, you know, having not cooperated with the investigators in Aruba, they weren't going to be able to just come to the United States with impunity, and put a spin on their story, and give their version, without consequences.
We wanted to let them know we were watching their every move. And we wanted to let them know we would use every tool at our disposal to get answers to the questions that we need, mainly, where's Natalee?
Long term, I want to sit down, be able to take their depositions under oath. I want to be able to ask Joran face-to-face and Paulus face-to-face the tough questions, and see what their answers are then.
ROWLANDS: You name Paulus -- that's Joran's father -- in this lawsuit...
KELLY: Yes.
ROWLANDS: ... claiming, basically, that he allowed what you describe as a time bomb to go out at night and prey on young women. Is it -- is it a bit of a stretch to try to implicate the father here?
KELLY: Well, I don't think so.
I mean, everything in the complaint, Ted, is taken from police investigative reports or the statements of the three suspects. In addition to the supervision issue, you know, Joran was out that night. He was even out the next night, when Beth and the others arrived there at midnight in a casino, obviously, you know, just having his way with his father and doing what he wanted, with his father's knowledge.
But, in addition, one of the statements from one of the other suspects indicated that Paulus Van Der Sloot has advised the three of them not to use e-mails to communicate, because their hard drive could be used as evidence, not to use their cell phones, because they can be traced, to get their stories straight early on, before they started talking to investigators.
And a number of sources have even said he was the one that made the statement, "No body, no crime."
So, no, I don't think it's a stretch at all.
ROWLANDS: Beth, I know that you have been critical of the Aruban officials, especially early on in the investigation. Has your feelings towards them gotten better over time, worse over time? And what is your relationship with them? And how -- and where is the investigation?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, as far as our being just displeased with the investigation, I mean, absolutely.
I mean, since we have left the island, they really have not shown us -- us any action in the investigation. And, you know, of course, we didn't have any communication with the officials past August. And that's why John -- we hired him, because, you know, thank goodness, he has been able to reestablish that communication, and at least maintain that communication.
But, of course, we -- we were displeased, and -- and have been from the beginning with the Arubans, you know, just a lack of sense of urgency in the entire investigation.
ROWLANDS: Mark Geragos, what...
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I was going to ask John a question, if I could.
KELLY: Sure.
GERAGOS: John...
KELLY: Yes.
GERAGOS: By the way, I think it's an extremely smart move. I mean, if this investigation is dead in the water, the way to jump- start it is to file a civil lawsuit.
Do you anticipate that they're going to move to stay the action, so you can't do any discovery, basically hold the lawsuit in abeyance?
KELLY: Well, first of all, thanks, Mark. I appreciate that.
Yes, I think, down the road, you know, there are -- I'm sure you're familiar with it -- there are a couple of other procedural hurdles we have to get past first. But, when you get to the substantive issues, they would be, depending on -- under conflicts of law, which law applies, be able to, you know, take the Fifth, and -- and seek a stay, until the criminal investigation was over.
But, you know, we take -- we take each...
GERAGOS: And it certainly...
KELLY: We take each obstacle as it comes, as you know.
GERAGOS: Yes.
And I certainly -- it certainly doesn't help the son's case for him to be out there talking and then to allege the Fifth, I suppose.
But the one other thing that intrigued me, though, is you named -- by naming the father and making him a defendant, does that make it easier for you to get discovery out of him, as opposed to if he was just a third-party witness?
KELLY: Well, sure. He's a -- he's a named party. And once we establish jurisdiction, get into the discovery process, he -- you know, we don't need to subpoena him. He's a -- is a named party. He has got to appear when noticed to appear for deposition. So, you know, that -- that is helpful.
GERAGOS: So, that's probably one of -- it's a real helpful reason to name him as a defendant.
KELLY: You're absolutely right, Mark. Thanks.
ROWLANDS: That lawsuit was served on both of them.
Coming up, we are going to talk about how they tracked down both Joran and his father and served that lawsuit. Also, we are going to hear from the attorney for the Kalpoe brothers, the other two young men that were last seen with Natalee Holloway -- that coming up.
You're watching "LARRY KING LIVE."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "PRIMETIME LIVE")
CUOMO (voice-over): In the video obtained by ABC News from a confidential source, Joran Van Der Sloot appears to be coming in to the casino. And this appears to be Natalee.
Here, she and her friends are next to Van Der Sloot, as he plays card. You can see, in this photograph, apparently taken on the same day, the young women are wearing the same clothes.
In Van Der Sloot's very first sit-down interview, he told how he met Natalee Holloway at the casino, how he later joined Natalee and her friends at a nearby nightclub, and about the time he spent with her after they left the bar together, even as her friends begged Natalee not to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "PRIMETIME LIVE") CUOMO: When you heard that a girl had gone missing on the beach, what did you think?
VAN DER SLOOT: Well, the first thing that popped into my head was (EXPLETIVE DELETED) what if something happened to her? What if she went swimming? I was thinking, after everything she told me, she probably might have gone back to her hotel, hooked up with someone else, and wanted to stay another day on the island.
CUOMO (voice-over): In the coming days, the search intensifies. Where was Natalee? Kidnapped? Drowned? Murdered?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Beth Holloway, when you watch that, what goes through your mind?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Oh. What goes through my mind are the repeated lies that Joran has given just over and over and over again.
I just don't know how much more that the family can take, just hearing from him and -- and his endless lies.
ROWLANDS: He -- right -- he basically said right there that he doesn't know if she went swimming, or maybe went back to the hotel to hook up with somebody else.
I don't know if that means finding another friend, or what he was trying to imply. But, knowing your daughter, at 3:00 a.m., 2:00 -- 2:00 in the morning, would -- would she be gallivanting around and looking to hook up with somebody?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: You know, knowing Natalee, I know definitively that Joran Van Der Sloot knows exactly what he did with her that night.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: He knows exactly.
ROWLANDS: All right. Thanks, Beth.
We're to quickly talk to David Kock. He is the attorney for the Kalpoe brothers. These are the two young men that were with Joran Van Der Sloot the night that Natalee went missing.
What are -- what are your thoughts, David, of Joran speaking out and claiming now, a little bit -- a different version, that he left Natalee on the beach and went off with your two clients?
DAVID KOCK, ATTORNEY FOR SATISH KALPOE AND DEEPAK KALPOE: Well, I think the only consistent thing from the last statements that he gave is that he left Natalee on the beach.
I must say that his statement, even about leaving, have been changing. At a certain moment, he was stating that he walked home. First, he said he called one of my clients, Deepak, to say that Deepak picked him up. When he was confronted with facts, I mean, records from Internet records proving that Deepak was at home at that time, then, he had to give another explanation.
So, then, all of a sudden, it was Satish who picked him up. After that, he did not give any more statements. So, in -- in that aspect, he is consequent now, but he hasn't been consequent during the investigation.
ROWLANDS: Your clients, Deepak and Satish, they do admit that they were with Natalee Holloway and were in a car. Did they admit to, as Joran says in this interview, any sexual assault on Natalee? He basically says that -- that they were involved in some inappropriate activity.
KOCK: No, not -- not at all, not at all.
And just, it sound -- it's very new to me now, what -- what he is saying now about my clients, because, at a certain moment during the investigation, he also admitted that they just dropped him. It was just a matter of if they picked him up, yes or no, but not that they had any kind of contact with the disappeared girl.
ROWLANDS: So, what -- what are your clients saying happened?
KOCK: Well, they -- they dropped him with the girl, upon request of Joran next to the beach at Marriott's, drove home, went home. And they got a call -- not they -- Deepak got a call from Joran at about 2:30 in the morning, and then, afterwards, they -- an -- an Internet message a little later. That's all.
ROWLANDS: And your clients were arrested not only once, but twice.
KOCK: Yes.
ROWLANDS: What is their status now? They're still suspects. Do you anticipate that they will be arrested again?
KOCK: I think not based on the facts as they are right now. I mean, I -- I doubt it.
As you said, they are still suspects, because there's still an ongoing criminal investigation. It has not been closed yet. So, formally, they are still considered suspects.
ROWLANDS: OK.
David Kock, attorney for the Kalpoe brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, joining us on the phone from Aruba, thank you for your time.
Beth, what do you -- what do you think about the Kalpoe brothers and -- and their role in this? Do you believe that they had a role in this, and they are not coming forward, or -- or do you think that they are being truthful? HOLLOWAY TWITTY: I know one thing that Deepak Kalpoe did in August was, when the gardener came before the judge of instruction to give sworn testimony of witnessing those three suspects together in the Kalpoe brothers' car that night at the pond, across the street from the Marriott, it was in front of the prosecutor, in front of the defense, the judge of instruction, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, Joran Van Der Sloot.
Deepak panicked. He panicked when the gardener gave that testimony. That very afternoon, he called an Aruban girl to help him establish an alibi. She, in turn, panicked. She called FBI. She dialed the 1-877-NATALEE number and told them that she did not want to be involved in this.
So, I mean, that was a -- definitely a red flag that Deepak knew that he was being nailed in that car with the other two suspects at the critical time.
ROWLANDS: Mary, what...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Otherwise, he would not -- otherwise, he would not have made the call.
MARY FULGINITI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes.
You know, I agree with Beth on this. I think, look at the actions of Deepak here and his brother, as well as the actions, obviously, of Joran Van Der Sloot, are not only very suspicious. I mean, they are just bad.
I mean, they look bad. We have got a series of ever-changing stories, according to this complaint. And they have had access to the police reports, at least 12 different versions. We have got e-mails. There are -- there is other correspondence, and text messages, and phone messages that seem to contradict their stories.
So, my heart goes out to you, Beth, because I know you're just looking for answers, and you want to know what happened to your daughter. And -- and I know it's frustrating, because, obviously, they can't compel these individuals to tell the truth. And it's pretty clear that they haven't told the truth in the past. In fact, they have admitted it.
But I had a very interesting question, I hope, for John, in particular.
You said that you had -- you were privy to a lot of the police records and files and, I presume, some of their evidence with regard to this case prior to preparing the complaint.
KELLY: Sure.
FULGINITI: In particular, you have got some allegations in here. The most damaging ones, I think, are in paragraphs 36 through 39, which really say that they kept her against her will, she was sexually assaulted, and she was fondled and touched, without her consent, by Joran and his accomplice -- accomplices.
And I'm just wondering, did you gather that from actual statements that were provided to the police, or other evidence, or was that just sort of a summary of -- of everything that you looked at and put together?
KELLY: First of all, hi, Mary. How you doing?
(LAUGHTER)
KELLY: As far as the question goes, it's -- everything in the complaint, all the -- the allegations, are taken right from police investigative reports. And a large part of those police investigative reports are the statements of the three suspects, including the allegations in those paragraphs you referred to.
FULGINITI: OK.
ROWLANDS: All right, we are going to take -- we need to take a quick break.
(LAUGHTER)
KELLY: Yes.
ROWLANDS: And, before we do, we want to say that LARRY KING LIVE repeatedly has tried to reach the attorney representing the Van Der Sloots to invite him or his clients on the show. And those calls have not been returned.
When we come back, we will talk more about this lawsuit and have more clips from that interview from Joran Van Der Sloot.
Stay with us. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "PRIMETIME LIVE")
CUOMO: This has been in the media. It has been in the print media. It has been on television. It has been on cable television. It has been all over the place in America for sure. How do you think you have been portrayed in this?
VAN DER SLOOT: I think I have been -- been portrayed unfairly. I have been portrayed as a murderer and a rapist and everything that I'm not.
CUOMO (voice-over): Van Der Sloot has been the main suspect in the case since soon after admittedly lying to police about dropping Natalee off at her hotel. But what other lies may he have told? And is he now, finally, telling the truth?
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Joining us now from Meridian, Mississippi, is Dave Holloway, father of Natalee Holloway, and a part of this lawsuit which was served on Joran Van Der Sloot and his father.
Joran Van Der Sloot, doing a recent television interview, talked about that lawsuit. Let's take a listen to a clip about the lawsuit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "PRIMETIME LIVE")
CUOMO: What do you make of the lawsuit?
VAN DER SLOOT: I think their lawsuit is ridiculous. I mean, I came here as a part to -- to talk to you guys, and to tell the story, and to be able to get it into the open. And the -- everything in that lawsuit is not true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Dave, your reaction to not only the lawsuit comment, but seeing this young man pleading his case?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, FATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Well, he -- he indicated that the allegations were not true.
John just mentioned that all of those were taken from the police records. So, you know, he has had the opportunity to lie to the police on and on and on, and there's no penalties in Aruba for lying. If we can -- if this lawsuit is successful, and we can get him here, there will be penalties for lying under oath.
ROWLANDS: What do you make of his story that he left your daughter on the beach alive and well, and just left because he was tired and wanted to go home, basically?
HOLLOWAY: Well, you know, he has told us a number of lies from the beginning, obviously, the Holiday Inn story. They implicated the security guards.
And, then, they settled in on the fact that they left her at the beach north of the Marriott. You know, and then he -- and then they have lied a number of times on how they got home. I think there was one about, he walked home. The second one was that Deepak took him home. And now he has settled on the fact that Satish probably took him home.
ROWLANDS: John Kelly...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLLOWAY: So, I'm -- I'm not sure to buy anything.
ROWLANDS: John Kelly, realistically, what are the odds, do you think, you will get your opportunity to depose this young man or his father? KELLY: You know, we are taking this very seriously. And we think there is a very good chance that we will have a chance to depose him at some point.
The -- the ultimate decision is going to be in the discretion of a -- a judge. And when you have got a judge that is going to be able to exercise his discretion, after looking at all the facts, you know, you're in the fight. And that's where we want to be right now, Ted.
ROWLANDS: You filed this in New York.
(CROSSTALK)
ROWLANDS: There's no tie to New York.
Mary, I guess you did some research.
And, obviously, you guys did a lot of research.
This could still fly.
FULGINITI: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
FULGINITI: I mean, John knows that very well.
(LAUGHTER)
FULGINITI: Yes.
Basically, the minute somebody steps foot in a state, you really avail yourself to the -- the laws of that particular state. So -- and, as for subject matter jurisdiction, I think you probably do have in it New York. The only issue will be whether or not the judge wants to exercise his or her discretion to kick it. And that will be in his or her discretion, if he feels...
GERAGOS: Right, because they're -- they're going to come in, and they are going to argue that this is not a convenient forum, that they shouldn't be tried there.
And they will give all of the reasons for that. And John is going to argue, well, it was convenient enough to come here to do an interview; it was convenient enough. You could fly here. So, obviously, that is not an impediment to you.
And, so, actually doing the media interview is going to be one of the worst things that they could have done, in terms of trying to defend against this lawsuit. Number one, it allowed John to serve them. Number two, it gave them the ability do file it in New York. And now he's going to -- it diminishes any argument that they have that this case shouldn't be in New York.
ROWLANDS: Dave Holloway, what do you think happened to your daughter? HOLLOWAY: You know, that's a good question. And that's what we're trying to find out.
And, Ted, that's -- that's the reason we filed this lawsuit, is, we need some answers, and we need to find out what happened. If we knew, you know, that would -- that would be some sort of closure.
ROWLANDS: Beth, how difficult is it not having your daughter with you and -- and not knowing exactly what happened to her?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: You know, I don't think there's any way that I could explain to you the nightmare that the family has experienced since May 30.
And I know one thing. I know now how other parents of missing loved ones feel. And I tell you, it's just -- it's a never-ending nightmare. But you just have to have hope and faith that -- you know, that you have got people that will get to the bottom of it.
FULGINITI: You know what? I have to say, as a former prosecutor, and now, obviously, defense counsel, I'm always amazed when suspects, people who are still suspects...
(LAUGHTER)
FULGINITI: ... not only talk about the case, but go on national television and give, you know, whatever side of the story they may to want to give about it.
GERAGOS: Well, that's why -- that's why I say, the -- for both parents and, obviously, for their lawyer, you couldn't ask for anything better, because it gives you the ability to bring this lawsuit and to pursue this.
I -- you know, talk about an inconvenient forum. For them to have to go down to Aruba to try to do something, obviously, they have met with great frustration, in terms of the authorities. And I don't know what -- whether they have tried to do something civilly down there. But I -- I'm sure that the laws are a little bit more difficult and in -- nowhere near as convenient.
So, not only does it give them the opportunity to have somebody make, as Dave was saying, what, the fourth or fifth different statement; you wonder who is counseling them at a certain point, as to why they're doing this.
FULGINITI: Oh, absolutely, because it's like, this -- what I have -- excerpts I have seen, actually, have not been very flattering of this young boy. They just haven't.
To say that he left the beach because he wanted to get home and he had to go to school the next day, and that's why he left her alone, I mean, that doesn't look good. It -- once again, it just looks like another string of bad fact and bad -- you know, bad judgment calls, or whatever you might want to call it.
So, I'm -- I'm just amazed, because, even in the Peterson case, he chose to go on, you know, one of the morning shows.
GERAGOS: He went on with Ted. He went on with Ted.
FULGINITI: Robert Blake, obviously, did the same thing. I mean, ultimately, it doesn't help them. I think it really hurts them.
ROWLANDS: All right, we are going to talk more about the interview, what he said in it. And we will hear more clips.
You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "PRIMETIME LIVE")
CUOMO: You keep mentioning Aruba: "I'm sorry for Aruba. This is bad for Aruba."
Let me ask you, in the scheme of things, who cares about Aruba? Isn't this really about what happened to this girl and whether you had anything to do with it?
VAN DER SLOOT: No. I do. I care. I care about Aruba.
CUOMO: Why?
VAN DER SLOOT: I have lived there my whole life. I love Aruba. I love the people that live there.
That -- that is my home. Aruba is my home. And I care that people would boycott Aruba and that people would say stuff about Aruba that is not true. So, I do care.
What I'm trying to say is, I understand if Natalee's family is mad at me, and she -- they point their attention towards me.
(CROSSTALK)
VAN DER SLOOT: What I do not understand is that -- why they would go boycott Aruba.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands, sitting in for Larry tonight. We're talking about the interview that Joran Van Der Sloot did, basically telling his side of the story in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. We're talking with Natalee's parents, who have filed a lawsuit against not only Joran Van Der Sloot, but against his father as well. They allege that Joran Van Der Sloot who basically a predator who used not only -- who used alcohol but also date rape drugs. In the interview that Joran Van Der Sloot did, he addressed the issue of date rape drugs. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The lawsuit defines you as the predator. Is that fair? VAN DER SLOOT: No, that's not fair at all.
CUOMO: There are allusions in paragraphs 12 and 13 that you use date rape drugs, that you give them to women, that there is a pattern of this, that this is what you do. Your response?
VAN DER SLOOT: That's not true at all. I've never had a date rape drug with me. I've never had one in my hand, and I've never even seen anyone give anyone a date rape drug.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Dave Holloway, do you believe him?
HOLLOWAY: No, I don't. I had an individual, in fact, a very good source that indicated to me that they had heard him brag about it at a school. So...
ROWLANDS: Brag about using ecstasy, or...
HOLLOWAY: Using date rape drugs.
ROWLANDS: On other women. And Beth, when you listen to him and you watch him, he basically is telling a much different story to a national or international audience about his potential culpability here. What are your feelings listening to him?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, the one thing that I heard you reference a while ago is predatory type behavior. And one thing I wanted to let you know was that when I arrived on the island, I went to the Holiday Inn, was probably there within about 45 minutes of getting to the island, and I only had a portion of Joran's name. I can't remember if I had the Sloot part, or Jordan, but when I began describing him to the Holiday Inn night manager who was on duty, she knew exactly who he was. And she said, yes, I know exactly, that's Joran Van Der Sloot. He tends to prey upon young American tourists. So I thought that was pretty unique.
GERAGOS: Did they ever put that woman in front of an investigator interview her, the authorities?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: No, that would probably be pushing it if they did that. I'm sorry, you know, I shouldn't have said that. Maybe.
GERAGOS: How much of this investigation did you actually have to do yourself? How much of the pushing them or pushing the authorities did you have to do?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Oh, I think that between Dave and I and Jug and Dave's wife Robin, I mean, if we hadn't have remained so aggressive on the island, there just wouldn't have been an investigation. And you know, thank heavens for the media, because that really kept them moving this summer.
ROWLANDS: At one point in the interview, Joran said, "I asked her if she wanted to have sex," talking about being on the beach, " and she was fine with it. I didn't have a condom with me, though, in my wallet, and I won't have sex with a girl without a condom." Making the statement basically that he would not engage in this type of behavior, because he didn't have a condom, but without saying it saying that your daughter may have. And Dave Holloway, that doesn't sound like your daughter from what we know about her. What do you make of this young man talking about this on national television?
HOLLOWAY: I think that was one of his excuses of why they stopped at his apartment. His apartment, by the way, is detached away from the main residence. And, you know, if you've got an individual that you're going to take advantage of, it's not likely that you're going to go to the beach. You're going to go to your apartment. And we believe that's where they stopped, and that's where the incident occurred.
ROWLANDS: John Kelly, would you like to file a lawsuit against the Kalpoe brothers?
KELLY: They're more welcome to come over here and interview with any network or cable station they want. We'll accommodate them.
Yes, I would like to -- on a more serious note, I don't like to be flip about that, but yes, we'd certainly like to sit down and ask some questions under oath, too. We feel they have a lot of information, and we certainly would like them to share it with us.
ROWLANDS: Is there a risk, Beth and Dave, to -- in filing this lawsuit, that you're maybe prolonging never finding answers and getting your hopes up? Do you worry about never actually finding out about what happened to your daughter?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: No, I really don't. I think, as I said earlier, I really think that, you know, I just keep that hope and faith that we will get to the bottom of this. I think there are too many things that are going on right now, and I think there are things that are still yet to happen. So I feel that it's very possible to get to the bottom of what happened to Natalee that night.
ROWLANDS: Dave, are you optimistic you will find out the truth?
HOLLOWAY: I've been optimistic from day one. You know, three kids cannot commit the perfect crime, unless they have had help or assistance. You know, the day I arrived on the island, I met with the detectives. And you know, they had already interviewed these three kids. And the -- we were directed back towards Carlos'n' Charley's. Oh, she's probably over there, and she'll show up. Well, you know, these three kids already fooled the detectives once. And then several days later, all of a sudden, the security guards were arrested.
Well, fool me twice. And you know, it just goes on and on and on. And you know, I have a concern and still do with the investigative team.
GERAGOS: Dave, did they ever -- did they ever do any kind of search or DNA or find any kind of forensic evidence in the apartment? You said that you believe that that's where, if something happened, that that's where it took place. Do you know, or did they disclose to you whether or not they did any kind of a search there and developed any kind of forensic evidence?
HOLLOWAY: Well, they say they did a search of Joran's apartment. I have got a photograph somewhere taken approximately two, three weeks, maybe a month afterwards, with a moving van in front of the house. And you know, it kind of strikes me, why someone would buy new furniture -- if that's what they were doing -- while their son is in jail? You know, and it kind of leads me to believe -- I'm only speculating -- that maybe they went furniture shopping to swap some of this furniture out to get rid of evidence. That's only speculation, but you know, there's a lot of clues out there.
ROWLANDS: OK. A lot of questions as well. Dave Holloway, Beth Holloway Twitty and John Kelly, thank you all for joining us. We're going to say goodbye to them. We will be back with Mark and Mary, the full panel, and more clips from that Joran Van Der Sloot interview. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands in Los Angeles. We're talking with Mark Geragos, defense attorney. Among his past clients, Scott Peterson, Michael Jackson, Wynona Ryder, Susan McDougal and Roger Clinton. Also in Los Angeles, Mary Fulginiti, former federal prosecutor. She was an assistant U.S. attorney in Los Angeles and has conducted investigations with the FBI, the DEA and the IRS.
In San Francisco, Michael Cardoza joining us, famed defense attorney, former Alameda County prosecutor as well. In Miami, Stacey Honowitz, Florida assistant state attorney specializing in sex crimes and child abuse. And in New York, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist.
Let's pick up our discussion with what we were just discussing, Mark and Mary. What are the odds of this lawsuit actually producing any fruit for this family, getting any answers? Aren't the Van Der Sloots just going to throw this thing out and...
FULGINITI: Well, the Van Der Sloots can't throw this out. It's got to be a judge in New York...
ROWLANDS: Not respond to it?
FULGINITI: They can not respond. They can choose to not respond to the lawsuit at all, which will -- but a default judgment will then be entered against them. And then, you know, as John would have told us, they can thereafter try to attach or get some of their assets for whatever the damages they are able to prove.
GERAGOS: I don't minimize it, but it's an uphill battle for the Holloways. You are going to be in front of a judge who is going to be normally inclined to throw something like this out. And it's just a matter of what they've got in order to support, as we were saying before, whether or not the fact that they have come up there, they've subjected themselves to an interview in that state and whether or not they can show that the controversy is strong enough there, and that there's reasons to (INAUDIBLE).
FULGINITI: I mean, the problem is, Ted, that there's nothing that occurred in New York, except for the fact that they got off a plane in New York. I mean, nothing about this lawsuit happened in New York. There's no witnesses that we know of that are in New York.
GERAGOS: John Kelly is in New York.
FULGINITI: That's it, their attorney is in New York. So it's going to be difficult.
GERAGOS: It is forum convenience for John. And that's not a bad thing.
ROWLANDS: They're asking for unspecific damages -- or unspecified damages, but really they are asking for answers here. And the odds of getting answers relies on getting a hold of this young man and his father and being able to depose them under oath. The odds of that happening, one would think, are pretty long.
FULGINITI: Well, I think that they're looking for the civil discovery process, if this case can stick in New York, to sort of help them provide them with the answers. You're right, I mean, this family is desperate to figure out what happened to their daughter and to hold those individuals that they feel are responsible accountable for those actions.
GERAGOS: I was just going to say, one of the problems is, normally when you file a lawsuit like this, one of the greatest tools you have is the ability to go out, take depositions of other people, of other witnesses, and go out and subpoena documents, and kind of investigate and use it to ferret it out.
The problem here is it's a state court lawsuit, as you know. So you're somewhat limited in what you can do outside the state of New York, and as Mary says, then, you know, it's not like all the evidence or the gravamen of this offense is in New York. That presents a problem.
FULGINITI: Or Aruba. I mean, how are you going to subpoena people from Aruba?
GERAGOS: Exactly.
FULGINITI: Not an easy process. So.
ROWLANDS: Right. Michael Cardoza...
CARDOZA: Yes, Ted.
ROWLANDS: Good idea, this lawsuit?
CARDOZA: Sure it's a good idea. It's going to make the Holloways feel a whole lot better, and they just might get some more information. But one thing that strikes me, if they do default in this particular case, that means the Holloways will get a money judgment against Paulus and his son Joran. And if they make any money through books, television, movies, they can attach that. It might be a little bit difficult, but at least they could chase that money down.
What really strikes me about this is why did Joran show up here? I am thinking, you know, Joran, you come here to the United States. There are people that have made up their mind about you. Certainly you're not going to change their mind. When they watch you on television, if they believe you did it, everything they watch, they're going to say, see, it corroborates what I was thinking. If there are people who think he didn't do it, they will be watching the same thing and they'll be saying, see, it proves he didn't do it. So Joran is not going to change anybody's mind. I think it was a foolish mistake to come here to the United States.
GERAGOS: And plus, all he had to do is to tell ABC, fly down to Aruba and be interviewed down here.
(CROSSTALK)
FULGINITI: ... from the Netherlands. He didn't have to set foot here at all. I mean, we're on satellite.
CARDOZA: I know. That's why I wonder, where was the defense attorney in this case? Kid, stay home. Don't go. Make them come to you. This makes absolutely no sense at all to me.
You know, Ted, one of the things that strikes me, when they were on the beach and they were talking about, you know, having sex and Joran said, oh, I didn't because I didn't have a contraceptive with me, I about fell off my chair. I thought, you're a 17-year-old kid and you're not going to have sex because you didn't have a contraceptive with you? Oh, that really smacks of the truth.
The other thing he said at that time, though, in his interview was, she told me to put her down. What was he doing? Was he carrying her somewhere? That was an interesting comment, I thought.
ROWLANDS: Right, and he was talking, from his point of view, I think he was talking about taking her to her hotel room and she said she didn't want to go.
We're going to hear more from that interview as well, and get more reaction. Right now, we want to check in with Anderson Cooper, who is in New York with a preview of what is ahead on "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "AC 360": Good evening, Ted. We're following a fast-breaking story out of Phoenix, Arizona tonight, high- rise hostage situation. A man has taken a hostage at gunpoint. Police are on the scene. We will also be on the scene with some live reports. We'll also talk to a hostage negotiator about how to get this man out of that building and get that hostage back safe and alive.
Plus, it's one of the most secretive religions in the world, the Church of Scientology. What is the truth about the faith, and why are so few outsiders ever able to get a look inside? We'll bring you a rare interview with one of the church's top officials. That and more at the top of the hour -- Ted.
ROWLANDS: All right, thanks, Anderson. We will look forward to that at the top of the hour. When we come back, we'll check in with Stacey Honowitz and Robi Ludwig hear more from that Joran Van Der Sloot interview. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Stacey Honowitz is an assistant state attorney in Florida. Stacey, from what you've seen from this interview and the fact that you specialize in sex crimes and child abuse, do you believe Joran van der Sloot? Does his story make sense?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Well I don't know how you can believe him. This is the fourth or fifth story that he's already told. But what I find so interesting, and I'll ask my colleagues Michael and Mark, who certainly defend murderers and rapists.
GERAGOS: Did she drop the accused? What happened to accused?
HONOWITZ: I mean, I can't believe that you would be shocked that he would come here -- the accused. Why they'd be so shocked that he would come over here? I mean, they have dealt with defendants before that I'm sure are very arrogant, that think they are above the law and do not listen to their advice. And for all we know, somebody over there might have advised them not to come over, not to speak to the media.
And because they've been, you know, in the court of public opinion, he's already been accused, he's already been convicted, he thought to himself, "I'm going to come over and I'm going to tell another story and hopefully everybody over there is now going to believe me." Do I believe this story? Of course not.
GERAGOS: The one difference is why avail yourself to the jurisdiction in the United States. I understand that people, when they're undersieged, the one thing they want to do is fight back. It's why -- I mean, if somebody's telling him, look, you go over there, then you're going to have to hire a lawyer to defend you in that case over there. Most people would say, "I don't want to spend any more money in this thing." And he does have...
HONOWITZ: ... Because he probably -- because honestly Mark, he probably never thought he would going to get served with a lawsuit.
GERAGOS: Oh, he's got a father who's very well versed in the law.
HONOWITZ: Listen, it doesn't make a difference. This is a guy that was willing to tell him how to cover up if he was involved in this cover up. This guy probably thought he was untouchable and nothing was going to happen. GERAGOS: If his father's that sophisticated to know no body, no crime, and this, that, and the other thing, one would think he'd be sophisticated to know -- enough to know that you don't go to the U.S. when there's a family that's looking to find out more information.
HONOWITZ: Probably not, because they probably thought even if he gets served with a lawsuit, they wouldn't have to answer it.
ROWLANDS: Robi Ludwig, what are your thoughts about this? Hold on, Stacey. All right. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist in New York. You've seen some of this. What's your take on this young man and what do you take from his statements?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, he's a very hard person to believe. When you look at him, it seems like he has absolutely -- what concerns me is that he has no empathy at all for Natalee or her family.
And he devalues her every single chance he gets. He's either describing her as loose, she's drunk, she wanted him. You know, all of these things that really present her in a less than positive light. And it's a one short hop, skip and a jump away from devaluing to dehumanizing somebody.
So I really think that he objectified her, that somehow in his head, whatever happened to her, he really feels is not his fault, that he shouldn't have to take responsibility and that there is a grandiosity.
Coming over here, he probably thinks, "I'm so wonderful. I'm so fabulous and convincing that of course people will believe me." And if you've met people who have committed crimes, they're sometimes so good at convincing themselves because they justify it that they had a reason to do what they did at that moment in time.
ROWLANDS: All right, we should note this once again, LARRY KING LIVE has repeatedly tried to reach the attorney representing the Van der Sloots to invite the attorney or the clients onto the program and our phone calls have not been returned. But we'll return after a quick break. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Stacey Honowitz, isn't it a leap to go from a guy that is a womanizer to a young man, 17-year-old, that is a murderer?
HONOWITZ: Well I think every time you look at something like that, yes, it is a leap. But there's evidence, sufficient evidence that they put into this lawsuit to let them know that listen, this is the last guy that was with her. She's never been found since then. Is it a leap? Is it a leap to say that he's a predator because there's other women that say that there was a date rape drug and he's done those things to them? It's a leap, but it's evidence. It's evidence that's sufficient enough for them to put in a lawsuit.
And it can be an uphill battle. But I said before, he's the last person that was with her, he's the only one that has information. And so logically speaking, people are going to associate him as being the last person, the only suspect, that if he raped her, if he lured her, that he probably murdered her.
ROWLANDS: Mark and Mary, the lawsuit is not a wrongful death lawsuit. They are alleging that he sexually assaulted this young woman and he says, "Yes, I did, and I left, and that was bad and now I'm telling the truth." Why don't we believe him?
FULGINITI: Well he said it was consensual, first of all. He didn't admit to sexually assaulting her at all. He claims that they were both, you know, engaging in acts that were consensual between the two of them. We don't believe him though because he's told a number of different stories. And he's even admitted to everyone that he has not told the truth before.
ROWLANDS: But doesn't a 17-year-old, when in trouble, sometimes lie?
FULGINITI: You know what, most people, I have to tell you, if they're not implicated in any wrongdoing, really don't lie. And if you sit down with them and if you with meet with them...
GERAGOS: ... Wow, where do you hang out? What do you mean, most people don't lie. Most people...
FULGINITI: I have met with a number of different cooperators and the ones that want to tell the truth...
GERAGOS: ... You know why Mary can't believe this? She just told us at the break. Because she says nobody has ever left her at the beach, and that's why she doesn't believe this story. So that's the reality of it. I mean, it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that there are four different stories.
ROWLANDS: Michael Cardoza, what is a viable explanation as to what happened to this young woman and do you believe it?
CARDOZA: Ted, you know what happened here? If they can prove it, if John Kelly can go after those witnesses that say Joran used ecstasy on me, the date rape drug, if they really have those witnesses, then my best guess here is what happened on this night, Joran used ecstasy with the Kalpoe brothers. Something went awfully wrong. Either she O.D.'ed on it, or the three of them tried to sexually molest her. She fought them, it went bad from there, she was killed, she was taken up to the lighthouse.
That's where the garbage is dumped on that island, that's where the sharks are. And unfortunately I think that's where she is. If they can prove that the three other women, Joran used ecstasy on them, I'll tell you what, that really tightens this case up.
ROWLANDS: All right, obviously we should note that it is speculation.
CARDOZA: Absolutely speculation. ROWLANDS: And Natalee Holloway's parents still hold out hope that there's a chance that their daughter is alive. Robi Ludwig, yes or no, do you believe this young man or can't a 17-year-old be lying and then finally tell the truth at the end?
LUDWIG: Sure, you could lie at any moment and then tell the truth. But his story just really doesn't make any sense and there's a feeling that he feels he can lie and get away with it. And that's the sense that I get and that's the sense that everybody gets.
ROWLANDS: All right, I want to thank all of our guests. Mark Geragos, Mary Fulgilini, Michael Cardoza...
GERAGOS: ... Most importantly...
FULGINITI: Fulginiti.
ROWLANDS: We've got to go, come on Geragos, leave her alone.
GERAGOS: Why don't you wish Wendy Walker (ph) a happy birthday today, would you?
FULGINITI: Yes, happy birthday, Wendy.
ROWLANDS: And we are out of time. Anderson Cooper is in Atlanta. Anderson, take it away, please.
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