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CNN Larry King Live
Suspect Charged in Grad Student's Murder; Owen Lafave Reacts to Sex Scandal; Search Continues for Missing Milwaukee Boys
Aired March 23, 2006 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The murder of a beautiful grad student. He says he didn't do it, although authorities say blood evidence ties him to her body. We've got the latest with his lawyer and more.
Plus, Owen LaFave, angry that charges have been dropped against his ex-wife Debra for having sex with a 14-year-old student he'll tell us more and take your calls.
And, the desperate search intensifies for two Milwaukee boys, 11 and 12, who went outside to play last Sunday and have not been seen since. The father and grandfather of one of them will join us.
It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: And hello everybody. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in tonight for Larry King. Tomorrow, Larry will be back with an interview with First Lady Laura Bush.
We're going to start tonight talking about the Imette St. Guillen case and Darryl Littlejohn. He made his first court appearance today pleading not guilty.
With us here in New York is Kevin O'Donnell, the attorney representing Darryl Littlejohn. What happened today in court? Did he know that the victim's family was there before he walked in?
KEVIN O'DONNELL, ATTORNEY FOR DARRYL LITTLEJOHN: Yes. Before the arraignment I was given an opportunity to go back and discuss who was out there, what the atmosphere was like, and I did let him know that the family was there.
ROWLANDS: What was the atmosphere like?
O'DONNELL: It was very emotional. I felt the emotion knowing that the family was there. I've always said from the beginning of this case that my heart goes out to this family and I am not going to treat her as any type of person who did anything wrong. I am going to respect her dignity in the same way in which she lived her life.
ROWLANDS: Your client has pled not guilty but prosecutors have detailed in their complaint against your client some very damning evidence if it's true, blood on the ties that were used to allegedly bind the victim, carpet fibers, hair fibers from a couple jackets and then cell phone evidence putting your client, or at least his cell phone, in the area where they found her body. How can you defend something like that? I mean it looks pretty bleak one would think from your standpoint.
O'DONNELL: Well, Ted, sitting here, yes, it does look bleak, but I haven't had a chance to review any of that information yet. Once I do, I'll address it appropriately.
But all this is right now is information. It's not evidence until a judge says it's evidence and the only people that I'm concerned about right now are the 12 jurors that are selected to try this case to hear testimony in this case and decide whether my client is guilty or not guilty.
ROWLANDS: Your client did a television interview with WCBS here in New York City, a local station. Let's take a listen. This is Darryl Littlejohn talking about the accusations against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARRYL LITTLEJOHN, CHARGED WITH MURDER OF IMETTE ST. GUILLEN: And this woman personally let anything, you know, from the little bit that I've been told about her she was a brilliant person. She was going on with her life to become, you know, somebody in this world and it has to be, the family has to be devastated. I'm truly -- I'm truly sorry what happened to this young lady but they have the wrong person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Why did you let him talk to the media, a classic defense error? A lot of people would say never let your client speak publicly. What was your reasoning to allow him to do that interview?
O'DONNELL: Well, two weeks ago I never would have consented to anything like that but because of the media leaks and the way he's been crucified in the media, I thought it was important that the public be given an opportunity to see his demeanor, to see the person that I've gotten to know after the last several weeks and I think it went off very well. And, all I'm trying to do is to try and neutralize the damage that has been done because of all the leaks that have led up to today.
ROWLANDS: What kind of person do you say, do you think he is after meeting him and you think he had nothing to do with this I guess?
O'DONNELL: Well, I believe in my client. Several of the things that he's told us have certainly checked out. He's told us that he had nothing to do with it. If you look at his criminal history and, yes, he does have a criminal history, but there are no allegations whatsoever concerning violence against women.
ROWLANDS: He walked her out of the bar, says he walked her out of the bar. What does he claim happened after that? O'DONNELL: He doesn't know what happened to her after that.
ROWLANDS: What did he do?
O'DONNELL: I'm not going to get into that right now.
ROWLANDS: But he says he's innocent completely. Do you think he can get a fair trial given the media circus especially here in New York?
O'DONNELL: It's going to be very difficult. The public has already made up their mind. A couple of weeks ago, if you read any of the New York papers, he was on the front cover with the quotes "It's him." He's been crucified. But, Brooklyn is, I think, the best place for him to get a jury of his peers.
ROWLANDS: All right, no change of venue, Kevin O'Donnell. Thanks for coming in representing Darryl Littlejohn who made his first court appearance today at a very emotional courtroom, in that courtroom the family of the victim, Imette St. Guillen.
As we take a break, take a listen to the sister of Imette St. Guillen addressing the media after the hearing today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEJANDRA ST. GUILLEN, SISTER OF IMETTE ST. GUILLEN: Imette was a good person, a kind person. Her heart was full of love, a love she willingly shared with her friends and family. She had a passion for life an a thirst for seeing the world and learning new things. With Imette's death the world lost something very special far too soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry.
We are talking about the Littlejohn court appearance today. Joining us now Davidson Goldin, columnist for the New York Sun, he's been covering the case from the start. He was in court for today's arraignment, a very emotional arraignment. We'll talk to him about that.
In Los Angeles, Mary Fulginiti, former federal prosecutor, she was an assistant U.S. attorney in Los Angeles. She has conducted investigations with the FBI, the DEA and the IRS.
Also in Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, well known defense attorney, clients of his include Scott Peterson, Winona Ryder, and Michael Jackson.
And also here in New York, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psycho therapist, has counseled survivors of sexual abuse. She is the author of a new book "Till Death do us Part." Davidson, let's start with you. Set the scene today in court, a very emotional scene.
DAVIDSON GOLDIN, NEW YORK SUN COLUMNIST: As Mr. Littlejohn's attorney just described, it was on one side when you walk in on the left Imette's mother with her arm around -- Imette's sister with her arm around her mother. On the opposite side of the courtroom Mr. Littlejohn was escorted in, in shackles. He sat down, did not look at the family, looked straight ahead in a gray jumpsuit and it was very quiet in the courtroom.
As you know, reporters tend to be very chatty. About 50 of us in there and no one said a word, two dozen court officers and cops, they were silent also as the court proceedings went forward.
ROWLANDS: So many reporters why has this case gotten so much attention, not only here in New York but nationwide?
GOLDIN: Well, New York is a symbol of what goes on in America in many ways and in New York, New York's been a relatively safe place for quite some time. People, as I've said on this program before, don't just disappear from the street.
And, in the beginning when Imette disappeared, there was a feeling of who could have abducted her? So, I know that I think I speak for all of us when most New Yorkers hope that Mr. Littlejohn is guilty, because if he's not that means the killer is roaming free.
ROWLANDS: Mary, as a former federal prosecutor, when you were prosecuting would you ever hold a press conference unless you were pretty sure or even filed charges in a high profile case unless you were pretty sure of your evidence and doesn't it look like this is a pretty solid case?
MARY FULGINITI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, first of all, with regard to press conferences, the feds don't really hold as many or at least they didn't back in the days when I was there as the state, so it's a little bit of a different sort of scheme.
But when it comes to charging a man, this was a grand jury that indicted Mr. Littlejohn, so you know the evidence was presented to the grand jury. They felt that it was sufficient to indict him with first degree murder and two counts of second degree murder and now they're going to take it to a jury to see if there is sufficient evidence there to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt.
The case, you know, there is some substantial evidence that we have heard. Clearly, it was enough to get him past the grand jury stage and now we have to see whether or not it's going to be enough to get him into and past a jury.
ROWLANDS: Mark, when you look at the evidence here, blood potentially, carpet fibers, hair fibers and then the cell phone as well, as a defense attorney is your strategy to attack the validity, if indeed this evidence is admitted and is legitimate or how do you defend a client in this circumstance? MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the first thing and I think that his lawyer has done I think exactly or he seems to be saying the things that he has to say. The biggest problem here is you get in there and there's a press conference right off the bat where all of this material is being laid out for the public.
I don't know how you get a jury after it's all been laid out like that that doesn't have a preconceived notion of guilty or presumption of guilt. You've changed the burden of proof by doing that. I think it's one of the great arguments for importing the Contempt of Court Act, which they have in England.
I mean as soon as this gentleman became under the focus of this investigation, all of the media attention should have been clamped down on. And, furthermore, I think it's irresponsible to get out there and start leaking or announcing all of the supposed evidence you have.
You don't know, number one, whether or not this fiber evidence is going to be admissible later on. You don't know, number two, whether or not the blood evidence is going to be admissible, whether there's a match, whether it's blood type, whether it's DNA. You don't know any of that.
But, as you sit here, any casual viewer that's watching this program and hears what's gone on in the first ten minutes is going to say, gees, it's a damning case and I don't know how you could ever defend it and this guy is guilty. Why don't we just dispense with the trial?
ROWLANDS: The defendant here did a television interview with a local television station. Before we get your comments, let's take another listen at another clip from that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LITTLEJOHN: I cooperated fully, even before I was placed under arrest. I went to the 75th Precinct voluntarily. I was not handcuffed. I was not any of that. I went there voluntarily. I spoke to them. I told them what I know and then once it became finger pointing at me this is when I decided to seek the advice of counsel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Dr. Ludwig, what do you think? When someone, let's say if he's innocent, is that the way an innocent man would conduct himself and, if he's guilty, is that the way or could you tell anything from an interview like that or does everybody just react differently?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D. PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It's very hard just to tell from an interview, although he does present himself very well and if this man is innocent, it's just awful that he is being presumed guilty at this point.
But the interesting thing about criminals is that very often some of them are so good at presenting as innocent because in their minds they either justify it or really believe in their own innocence or that they're justified. So, it's sometimes very hard to tell just based on a brief interview.
ROWLANDS: Mark Geragos, would you have allowed this interview to take place? You heard Kevin O'Donnell's argument for it. Wasn't it a good idea? He came across fairly well.
GERAGOS: I wouldn't second guess Kevin on this. You know I understand what he's saying. He said two weeks ago he wouldn't have done it. He's sitting there in the eye of a hurricane right now in terms of the press coverage. His client has been demonized.
He's a monster, dehumanized, and the only way to get back is to put him in front of there and try to remind people that this is a human being and he is entitled to some kind of a presumption of innocence. That's probably lost at this point and I don't see where there's anything at least in the brief clip that I've seen that was necessarily negative for him.
It's always a tightrope that you're walking but in these cases we've reached a point, in these super-sized cases, where sometimes a defense lawyer has to take somewhat unconventional or unorthodox strategies, and that's clearly what was done here.
ROWLANDS: Mary, the victim here, according to prosecutors, was rape but no rape charges and it doesn't appear as though they have a location. Is that a problem for the D.A.?
FULGINITI: No. I think the D.A. in this case charged it very interestingly because you have three distinct charges and frankly there's probably a multitude of other charges, rape being one option or another sex crime that they could have charged with but they decided to go with the three different theories of liability that they thought they needed to present in order to try to get a conviction.
So, I think the fact that rape wasn't charged, I don't think we necessarily know exactly which sexual offense was committed. There are four different sexual offenses that are sort of outlined in the indictment.
GERAGOS: And ultimately what difference does it make? If you get a conviction on the charge you're looking at an LWAP, a life without parole, in any event, so I don't know that it makes one wit of difference in terms of piling on. A lot of prosecutors strategically pick what they think is their strongest count and that's what they seek an indictment on.
ROWLANDS: What about not having a location of the rape or possibly the murder too is that a problem?
FULGINITI: Well, the mere fact that it's not in the indictment doesn't mean they don't have a location, so you can't assume just because it's not in there. The indictment is really the bare bones charging of a case, so it's the evidence that's presented later on to a court and to a jury that's going to establish, you know, sort of the facts and the surroundings and tell the story a little bit more.
ROWLANDS: Davidson, do they have a location?
GOLDIN: They do not have a location. Joe Hynes, the Brooklyn D.A., was pretty honest about that today. She disappeared in Manhattan. Mr. Littlejohn lives in Queens. Her body was found in Brooklyn.
Three of the five boroughs all possibilities for where she was killed. Under New York State law the presumption is that she was killed where the body was found. That's the only reason this is a Brooklyn case right now.
ROWLANDS: He says he jumped on a subway to visit I guess his mother. Is he also -- he is also being looked at in another rape case isn't he?
GOLDIN: There are two rapes and an attempted rape in which New York officials continue to say he's a suspect. He's already appeared in a couple of line-ups in those cases, the victims there unable so far to identify him but cops are not letting up on him on those cases.
ROWLANDS: What's happening next in this case?
GOLDIN: What happens next is the trial motions or rather just the motions as the defense tries to get a hold of some of the evidence to run their own tests, motions back and forth between the parties.
And I think that really what happens now is the effort becomes on the part of the prosecutors to try to find more evidence because right now you've gone through the evidence here. There isn't a whole lot of evidence to show anything more than something that Mr. Littlejohn touched came in contact with her body. Proving that he actually killed her could be quite difficult.
ROWLANDS: All right.
We're going to switch gears after the break and talk about Debra LaFave, the Florida teacher who admitted having sex with her 14-year- old student. She will do absolutely no jail time. Charges, some of the charges dropped this week. Stay with us. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES HYNES, KINGS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: After the grand jury heard all of the evidence in this case, they returned a three- count indictment charging Darryl Littlejohn with two counts of murder in the second degree and one count of murder in the first degree.
The charge of murder in the first degree, which carries a sentence upon conviction of life without any possibility of parole, alleges that the defendant intentionally caused the death of Ms. St. Guillen.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in tonight for Larry. He will be back tomorrow night with an interview with First Lady Laura Bush.
Joining us now Owen LaFave, he is in Tampa, Florida. Owen is the ex-husband of Debra LaFave, who is that Florida teacher who admitted having sex with a 14-year-old boy.
On Tuesday of this week the final charges against her were dropped by prosecutors citing an unwillingness to risk the well being of the victim by compelling him to testify.
The victim in the case did not want to be involved in the trial. The victim's mother did not want her son to suffer any more of the media scrutiny, so the prosecution just dropped the case.
So, the net effect is that the only punishment that she will receive is three years of house arrest and seven years of probation; Owen, your reaction to the fact that your ex-wife is basically not going to do any jail time?
OWEN LAFAVE, EX-HUSBAND OF DEBRA LAFAVE: Well, Ted, I'm disgusted by the whole thing. I mean I understand the mother's position in not wanting to force a trial. I still think they could have gotten a conviction based upon the evidence without the boy's testimony.
But, I mean she admitted to having a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old. I mean that's statutory rape in the state of Florida and, you know, it's just evidence that there is a double standard in our legal system. She should have went to jail.
ROWLANDS: The prosecutor that decided to drop these charges were you in contact with that department at all? Did they seek out your assistance at all in this and did you have any compelling evidence in this case or really did they just leave you out of it?
O. LAFAVE: They really left me out of it. I did talk to the prosecutors in Hillsborough County. Marion County I never had any contact with the prosecutors and so that was just kind of a completely separate issue.
ROWLANDS: Now you were married at the time of this or were your separated at the time? What was the situation and how did you find out?
O. LAFAVE: No, we were married at the time. We were married only eleven months, although we had been dating, engaged, you know, four years prior to that. And I found out the day she was arrested. I got a phone call from her mother saying that, you know, she had been taken into custody by the police.
ROWLANDS: Did you have any idea, you were in the first year of marriage, that your wife was sleeping with one of her students? O. LAFAVE: Oh, God no. I mean I had no idea. And I will tell you this now that, you know, this is over. I mean she was acting a little peculiar, you know, a week or two before her arrest but, you know, I never had any idea this was going on.
ROWLANDS: And you have said that she did have some issues, an eating disorder and I guess some mental issues but you say you just didn't see this coming at all huh?
O. LAFAVE: No, not at all. I was completely blindsided by it I mean. And like you said, Ted, you know, I have said before and I stand by it, I mean she had some mental issues. She had, you know, some issues with depression. She had an eating disorder but I never saw this coming.
ROWLANDS: She did address the media recently and said that she was sorry. Let's take a listen to Debra LaFave. This is after the charges were dropped against her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBRA LAFAVE: If anything, I am tired of the media. I don't think not one time has the media brought up the subject of my bipolar and I challenge you to read a book or an article on bipolar illness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: What's your reaction to your ex-wife there saying she's tired of the media? I mean she's getting off really with no jail time in a situation that she could have been spending a lot of time behind bars.
O. LAFAVE: You know I don't think she took any responsibility in that press conference, you know. She seemed very smug, condescending right there and, you know, she blamed it on her being bipolar. She blamed it on the media but she never once, you know, said that, you know, she was responsible for her own actions.
Later in that interview, you know, she states that her job was taken away from her. No, you know, the fact that she had a sexual relationship with a child is why, you know, she lost her job. And she also refers to the whole situation as a bump in the road and, you know, I think that's probably a little lighthearted for the severity of the situation.
ROWLANDS: Mary, as a prosecutor, is it difficult when you know you're going to impact the life of a witness and in this case a minor witness and is that a difficult decision to make and can you see where the prosecution folks have made this decision in Florida were coming from?
FULGINITI: Oh, absolutely. I mean when you have a victim witness, regardless of age, but especially when they're a minor and the mother is pleading with you and telling you that the child is having anxiety attacks due to the media exposure and to please try to resolve the case short of him or her having to testify, it definitely impacts you.
And so, in this case I don't find it surprising that the prosecution ultimately dismissed the case but I think you need to make it clear and so everyone understands that she was charged in two separate counties. She was charged in Hillsborough and Marion and she did plead guilty to two counts of lewd and lascivious conduct in Hillsborough. She got seven years probation and three years of house arrest.
So, I think the prosecutor in Marion County where he was -- where she was looking at one count I believe of the same or similar type of conduct, took that into account in deciding ultimately that, you know, this victim has gone through enough and should he be further victimized really by the proceedings?
And I think that was probably a very compelling component in them deciding to dismiss the case, especially since they had offered a deal at the beginning where she would plead guilty and get probation or similar terms to those that were offered in Hillsborough County, so it is a...
ROWLANDS: And the judge in that case said no to that deal saying that he thought that would not serve justice. Mark, if you had a male teacher/client you'd be pretty happy with this deal wouldn't you?
GERAGOS: I've had both a male teacher/client and I've had a female who was in the exact same position with a young boy. You know there is a double standard. I don't have a problem with that. I understand it. The reason that this case attracts so much attention is that every male who looks at that picture or looks at that video says I wish it were me and that's the problem.
When we started to pick a jury in the case I defended the prosecutor ended up just giving it to me because every single -- giving me a probationary deal also for the client because every single male said, "Are you kidding me? That's a male fantasy."
I understand the husband's problem because who wants to be the husband of a woman who's having an affair with a 14-year-old? I mean it's obviously a shocking and an embarrassing situation and you don't want to be placed in it.
But the fact is, is there exists in society a double standard. Most males, if you take them aside and ask them, will tell you the truth that they don't think that there's a problem with that.
And that's the double standard that exists and they've taken account of that. And I'll tell you another thing the problem usually is not the kid. It's not the kid who's got the problem, it's the mother of the kid who's got the problem.
FULGINITI: Oh, here we go. Ted, I have to...
ROWLANDS: Dr. Ludwig, let me just ask the doctor, Robi Ludwig, Mark, you know, says that this is a fantasy for a male.
LUDWIG: Right.
ROWLANDS: Is it a fantasy for a 14-year-old boy though and can you as a 14-year-old boy have some psychological problems from going through something like this?
LUDWIG: Oh, absolutely and I first want to say that as a teacher you cannot have an affair with a student and be abusing -- and not abuse your boundaries. I mean basically the teacher is there to keep the children safe. So, when that line is crossed it's very devastating.
GERAGOS: So, obviously Dr. Ludwig has never watched any of the Van Halen videos, (INAUDIBLE) the teacher or anything else?
LUDWIG: Oh, OK, listen Mark I hear you.
GERAGOS: I mean you can say all you want, Robi, but the problem here is it's not the kid who has the psychological damage. It's the mother who can't get over it who inflicts the damage on their son.
LUDWIG: No, no, sometimes kids -- no, that's not true. Sometimes the kids do and in some cases it's the needy child and even if something is a fantasy...
GERAGOS: Sometimes 18-year-olds. But sometimes Robi...
ROWLANDS: Wasn't the decision not to go forward here because of the welfare of the child and then didn't prosecutors look into that?
GERAGOS: The child, would you want to -- if you're the 14-year- old...
LUDWIG: Absolutely. Mark, let me tell you something. No.
GERAGOS: ...are you going to want to get up there and testify and have all your buddies there saying you're damaged because you had sex with a teacher?
LUDWIG: Mark, listen, even if...
ROWLANDS: All right, we got to get a break.
LUDWIG: We'll take this after, after the break.
ROWLANDS: We're going to take a quick break here and talk more with Owen LaFave and discuss the teacher in Florida who will not be doing jail time despite admitting having sex with a 14-year-old.
You are watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. LAFAVE: My greatest regret would probably be the fact that I put this young man through this. I mean the media has totally taken it out of proportion and he's suffering even more so by the media's actions. (END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry, who is out tonight, but he'll be back tomorrow night with an interview with the first lady, Laura Bush.
Owen Lafave -- we were just discussing whether or not the 14- year-old boy hit the jackpot with this, or was a victim in this. Do you think there's a double standard, or obviously it seems like there is, and do you think it's right that a woman can do this and basically do no jail time?
O. LAFAVE: No, it's definitely not right. Look, I mean, it is a fantasy to many, but that's what it's meant to be. It's meant to stay a fantasy. And when you cross those boundaries, especially as a teacher, I mean, you destroy lives. You know, you ruin the mental development. And I'm sure Robi can, you know, can elaborate on this further.
LUDWIG: That's exactly right. Thank you, Owen. I mean, that's really true. Even, let's say, if a student pursues a teacher -- and that happens in some cases where students are quite seductive, they're young, they have a strong fantasy life.
Fantasies are meant to stay a fantasy. And very often when these children have affairs with teachers, they are damaged in some regard, not all, but some. They're considered responsible for getting rid of the teacher. The teacher no longer is there. Very often these teachers are the most popular teacher. Yes, Mark?
GERAGOS: But, Robi, is that any different than an 18-year-old who has affairs with other people who some cases, they become damaged as well? You make these generalizations about these -- some cases they get damaged.
LUDWIG: No, I don't
GERAGOS: Everybody gets damaged out of relationships. That's what relationships are all about. They break and you move on.
LUDWIG: Yes, but you know what? Well, no, because when you were 14 years old, you are different than when you are 18 years old. And also ...
GERAGOS: That's true. For most males, their peak is between 14 and 18.
LUDWIG: Well, but when you are a teacher you are a trusted member of an organization.
GERAGOS: Well, nobody's saying ...
LUDWIG: And you cross those lines, that's wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: And a 14-year-old is psychologically not the same as an adult.
GERAGOS: Nobody is saying a teacher should do this, or that it shouldn't be a criminal act. But the fact remains is that there is a qualitative difference between a man who's doing this with an underage girl and a female who's doing it with a supposed underage boy. I think there's a qualitative difference. There is a double standard, and it's well-founded.
LUDWIG: There is a double standard. And especially with a beautiful woman, because we don't like ...
GERAGOS: Well, that's obviously why we're talking about it.
LUDWIG: That's absolutely right. With beautiful women, we don't like to see women as dangerous. And when somebody is attractive and we find them sexually attractive, it's hard to imagine that this wasn't wanted in some way, and it was just a relationship that clicked.
ROWLANDS: Mary, do you think there should be a double standard? Do you agree with Mark that it's valid?
FULGINITI: Absolutely not. First of all, I think there is, unfortunately, somewhat of a double standard that's applied here by different judges. And I think the judge in Marion County actually wanted to stop it. He felt that it shocked the conscience of the court that there was no jail time being enforced.
(CROSSTALK)
FULGINITI: But the reality of it is, Mark, and you can't ignore this, that these are teachers. And they are in positions of power and trust and responsibility.
GERAGOS: I understand that. So remove them. Remove them.
FULGINITI: And I have to say that the charges are valid. They should be given some jail time. I think we've seen jail time happen in many cases.
GERAGOS: Not often.
FULGINITI: We've had teachers that have abducted children and taken them to Mexico.
GERAGOS: Well, nobody is talking about taking them to Mexico ...
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: I'm just telling you, if you've got a teacher who is -- who looks like that, most males are going to have that fantasy, and you're never going to get a conviction to begin with, as long as there's a male on that jury. FULGINITI: OK, I will give to you that many males will have that fantasy, but I don't, you know, concede the fact that you can't get a conviction. I think there are people that will be able to sit and apply the law.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: If you bounce every male off the jury you'll get a conviction.
ROWLANDS: Isn't it fair though to say that young girls who have a attractive male teacher have the same types of fantasies? And yet if a male teacher would act on that, he would be looking at a long prison sentence, and he would be vilified.
GERAGOS: Nobody's saying -- and you know what's going to happen? Right. He's going to be vilified. He's going to do double digit time in some state prison. They're going to have to put him in protective custody, because otherwise Bubba is going to take care of him.
You're going to have a situation that is going to be awful, and unfortunately, that's what the reality is. And you're going to have no trouble getting a conviction, because there is an ,ingrained inherent double standard in America.
FULGINITI: But, Ted, in one of the most infamous cases ...
(CROSSTALK)
ROWLANDS: We'll pick it up right after the break. Mary, hold that thought. We have to step aside. We'll take a quick break and have more. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. LAFAVE: I am very remorseful, and I believe that I'm going through therapy, and doing everything that I can possible to better myself for the community and society.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Debra Lafave, that schoolteacher in Florida who admitted having sex with a 14-year-old will not do jail time. On Tuesday, prosecutors dropped the second half of the charges that she was facing. Mary, pick it up, the point you were trying to make there. Pick it up there. What were you trying to get across?
FULGINITI: What we were talking about is, you know, whether or not the double standard exists or doesn't exist. Tonight, clearly conceded it exists to some extent in society, and I think in the courtroom, too.
But I think what you're seeing now more and more is, you know, are a number of different women being charged. You have a woman in Albany that was charged that was given jail time. You have the infamous case, Mary Kay Letourneau, who was charged with having sexual relations with, you know, her sixth -- I think it was sixth-grade student. And that was a seven-year jail term.
So in certain cases, where they find it's appropriate, you're seeing jail time imposed. And I think you're going to see it more and more as we go forward. And I think this is an exceptional case, just because the victim here was so anxiety ridden and the mother was so really reluctant.
GERAGOS: But that's not really the exception in terms of the victim being anxiety ridden.
FULGINITI: No, the reason why it was dismissed in this case.
GERAGOS: That is a fairly ...
FULGINITI: The reason why it was dismissed.
GERAGOS: Right, but that is a -- as long as you've got privacy rights, and victims have privacy rights, they've got -- and the ability to assert that they don't want to testify, you're going to see things like this happen. It happens a lot more often than you would think, where they just say, "Look, I don't think that I'm gaining anything here by going through this. And I don't see where there's any payoff for me. So why should I go through this?"
FULGINITI: I think that's absolutely right. I think in any sort of sex crime case, whether it be juvenile or whether it be an adult, frankly, you really as a prosecutor, want a willing participant as the victim witness. You don't want them to be reluctant. You don't want to have to compel them. Because if you're relying on their testimony predominantly to make your case, it could get tanked by them taking the stand and being reluctant.
ROWLANDS: Owen Lafave, your ex-wife here was cheating on you with this student at the time. It must have just been a blow to you. How did you handle it then, and how are you doing now? Are you still in shock? Or have you gotten over it
O. LAFAVE: No, I've gotten over it. It's been two years. And actually initially, it was very, very painful, probably one of the most painful things I ever went through in my life. And extremely humiliating, especially when it made the national media.
You know, it's just one of those things that you have to deal with. It's a bizarre situation. And at first, obviously very painful. But then I realized, you know, it was a child. And there was really no threat to me. And it was something that's bizarre and it's just something you've got to move on in life.
And it happened and something I had to accept. And actually, now, I'm doing great, after, you know, a period of just kind of looking back upon things and going through some therapy. You know, I can say I'm 100 percent healed, and actually recently got married.
LUDWIG: So, Owen, I have a question, since you know Debra probably as well as anyone -- do you think she's in danger of having an affair with another 14-year-old? Would you categorize her as a pedophile, or just someone who has romantic poor judgment, is self- destructive and grossly immature?
O. LAFAVE: I think it's probably the latter. However, I will say that I really don't think she understands the ramifications of what she did and how wrong it really was.
And I think that's probably the most troublesome thing is that, you know, if she is put in that type of situation again, how will she react? And I don't necessarily think she'll go out and seek it out, but I don't know that she'll execute proper judgment if the situation presented itself again.
ROWLANDS: She claims she's bipolar. Dr. Ludwig, how could that affect her, and is it a legitimate excuse here?
LUDWIG: It's not a legitimate excuse. Bipolar disorder is a mood disorder, so there are extreme highs and extreme lows. And when people are in a state of mania, sometimes their judgment is poor. They're impulsive, they're hyper-sexual. Sometimes they'll go on shopping sprees.
But they don't always make the connection between impulsive behavior and consequences. So it is possible that somebody who was in a manic phase might be more vulnerable to acting out.
Having said that, I don't think it's fair to say that because of her bipolar disorder, she had an affair and crossed a serious boundary. I think many people with bipolar disorder do very well in life and would never have an affair with a 14-year-old.
ROWLANDS: Sounds good. The top of the hour, "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming at us. And Anderson is standing by with a preview of what we have to expect. Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, hey Ted. We are here in New Orleans' Ninth Ward, where more than 1,000 college students are staying at this old church. A lot of them are standing around right behind me. Now they could have gone anywhere on their spring break, but they chose to come here to help rebuild this city. I went out with several of the students tonight. There they are. We will tell you their story on how they're making a difference here.
Plus, a girl found alive 10 years after her disappearance. Tonight, 24-year-old Tanya Kach is back with her father who never gave up hope. She says she was held against her will at the home of her school security guard, about two miles from her father's house. It's a bizarre story. Tonight, all the angles. How could it happen? We'll have that and more at the top of the hour. Ted?
ROWLANDS: All right, thanks, Anderson, look forward to that. We're going to take a break. We'll be back, you're watching "LARRY KING LIVE." Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) D. LAFAVE: I would first like to thank my lawyer, John Fitzgibbons, for believing in me and my illness. I appreciate how he fought to show mental illnesses are real and how they could cause good people to do bad things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROWLANDS: Welcome back to "LARRY KING LIVE." I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry. Larry will be back tomorrow night with an interview with First Lady Laura Bush. Owen Lafave, have you talked to your ex-wife Debra at all since this happened? What's your relationship with her now?
O. LAFAVE: You know, I talked to her a number of times previously. I haven't probably talked to her in about a month. And when we did talk, it was just finalizing a few financial loose ends regarding the divorce. And, you know, we have no relationship now. We're not in communication.
ROWLANDS: What is she up to now? Do you know? Where is she living and what are her plans?
O. LAFAVE: Well, I mean, she's living in her hometown. According to the press conference, she's taking a journalism class and she's preparing to join the very community that she sat there and chastised during the press conference.
ROWLANDS: Again, you look at this, what would you, if you were the judge here, and it was up to you to sentence your ex-wife, what would you like to see happen to her?
O. LAFAVE: Well you know, I will say I do agree with the judge. I would say six months to a year of jail time followed by maybe a period of three-to-five years of probation, in conjunction with continued psychiatric treatment. I think that would have been a fair and appropriate punishment.
ROWLANDS: Did she, Dr. Ludwig, seem to you as though she's accepted what she has done as being wrong? Or what do you think?
LUDWIG: No, that's what bothered me. She seemed to minimize what she did. And she seems to have absolutely no awareness, which could be due to her immaturity.
I also find it interesting, Ted, that she's engaged to her high school sweetheart. So there's something about Debra Lafave that's in a high school mindset. And that's obviously where she wants to be because that's where she keeps going back to.
ROWLANDS: Mark Geragos, again, you just think this is justice?
GERAGOS: It's much ado about nothing. If this woman didn't look this way, we wouldn't spend 45 minutes on CNN talking about it. So I don't know what to tell you. You know, I understand Owen's position. You know, there's a lot of ex's after a divorce that would like their ex-wife or their ex-husband to do jail time. So you don't have to have an affair to have your ex want you to do jail time.
ROWLANDS: Owen?
O. LAFAVE: You know, I will say, I feel like Mark brings up some valid points. And we're all in agreement, there is a double standard. I almost feel like Mark is fighting for that double standard to exist in society. I guess to each their own.
LUDWIG: But I think also...
GERAGOS: ... I think it does exist, though. And I don't know that I'm fighting for it, but I'm telling you that I think it's a reality.
LUDWIG: But we need -- I think we need to step back and say, "Hey, this is happening right now, to students and teachers," in that the school system and the community needs to be proactive and realize, this is going on and we need to take steps to identify the red flags, to make sure it doesn't happen as often.
ROWLANDS: All right.
O. LAFAVE: Absolutely.
ROWLANDS: Owen Lafave, thank you very much for coming in and joining us.
O. LAFAVE: Thanks, Ted.
ROWLANDS: Who knows if we'll talk about this anymore. This might be it, and I'm sure you'll be happy that this chapter is winding down.
O. LAFAVE: Yes.
ROWLANDS: Mary Fulginiti and Mark Geragos, thank you as well. We are going to switch topics when we come back. That search in Milwaukee continues to grow. Two young boys have not been seen since Sunday. Their families are very worried. We're going to talk to some family members and get the latest on the search, coming up. You're watching "LARRY KING LIVE."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELA VIRGINIA, MOTHER OF MISSING BOY: If you see something, if you know something, please check your homes. Let our boys come home. I miss my sons so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ROWLANDS: In Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the desperate search continues for 12-year-old Quadrevion Henning and his 11-year-old friend Purvis Virginia. The two were last seen on Sunday in Milwaukee and they have vanished without a trace.
More than $23,000 in reward money is on the table for any information leading to the boys return. With us tonight from Milwaukee is Quentin Henning, he's the father of Quadrevion. And Sir, along with Quentin is Garry Henning, Quadrevion's grandfather, and Anne Schwartz, she's the spokeswoman for the Milwaukee Police Department.
Quentin, I want to start with you as a father here. Boy, what are you going through?
QUENTIN HENNING, FATHER OF MISSING BOY: Going through some difficulties, trying to understand the whole situation. But I'm also trying to have a positive outlook on what's going on.
ROWLANDS: What, as far as you know, were the boys doing on Sunday, just before they disappeared?
Q. HENNING: They were doing their usual weekend activities, which is to maybe get a couple of hours of fresh air, just a little playtime, something that they normally do on the weekends, because they're in school during the week and homework after the week.
So weekend would be just a typical, get out and get a little fun, relieve a little stress from being in school.
ROWLANDS: And this was in the afternoon. At what point did you become worried?
Q. HENNING: My grandfather -- Quadrevion's grandfather actually became worried when it became a little close to dark. And it's not like either of the boys to be out after dark. So he immediately became worried.
ROWLANDS: Garry Henning, you have lived with Quadrevion since 2003. What kind of a kid is he?
GARRY HENNING, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING BOY: Oh, he's a great kid. Great, laid-back, obedient, makes you laugh.
ROWLANDS: Not something that he would do, be gone on his own free will or get into mischief on his own? Do you think they were abducted? Or what are your thoughts, what's your gut feeling here?
G. HENNING: My gut feeling, Dre would never leave on his own, by no stretch of the imagination. He loved his home, loved his family. And he knows he was well loved and well treated.
Never, never would he leave on his own. At this point in time, you know, maybe an accident, you know, happened or something. But other than that, totally, he's being held or whatever against his will. He and Purvis, without a doubt. unless there was some freak accident.
ROWLANDS: Anne Schwartz with the Milwaukee Police Department. What's the situation now with the case? Do you have any leads, and what are you doing to try to find these young men?
ANNE SCHWARTZ, SPOKESWOMAN, MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT: I really wish I could be sitting here telling you about leads that we have in the case.
We don't have any substantial leads in the case. We have conducted a massive search of the area around this home and spreading out about a mile in every direction from the home.
We have hundreds of volunteers who are out helping us today. We had 150 people, 12 dogs. It's been a massive search effort.
The problem is is we don't have anybody who's really seen them. We have people that see two little boys together. They think perhaps it could have been them. But we don't have any of their friends. Typically if we have boys who have, let's say, run away, we hear from their friends, "Oh, I saw them at a party or I saw them somewhere."
We haven't had anything like that in this case. And we're just hoping that with all the publicity that we've had, with all of the opportunities that we've had to show the boys pictures on television, in the newspapers, fliers are attached to everything in the city. We're hoping that someone will see something and will give us a call.
ROWLANDS: We want to pass along that number, 414-935-7401. If you have seen anything, or can contribute anything to this investigation. Quentin Henning, what would you like to say to your son if there was any chance that he could hear or see you?
Q. HENNING: I want to know, and let Quadrevion know that he's well loved. He's not in any trouble by any stretch of the imagination. I want him to know that his mother is here, his grandmother is here, I'm here in Milwaukee. His entire family is looking diligently and waiting for him to come home if he can make it home. I want him to know that we are looking for him.
ROWLANDS: Garry, are you optimistic that these boys will be found and are you pleased with the way that the police department has handled the search to this point?
G. HENNING: First of all, speaking, you know, as the head here, my family, we are very, very well pleased with what the Milwaukee police started to do, is doing, and will continue to do.
When I made that call, concerned, they were out here immediately, house-to-house. And I'm not saying what I heard, I'm saying what I saw and what I was involved in because they were here at my house doing all these things. And I'm well pleased.
ROWLANDS: Now, you -- are you in a city atmosphere? Are you in a rural area? What's it like right where these boys were last seen? G. HENNING: We're in the city. We're in the city. It's basically a quiet, laid-back, small area, and that's what's so baffling about it. Within our little framework here within the close confines, it's maybe eight, nine boys -- eight, nine, 10, 11 years of age group.
And they're just so close knit. And as far as being optimistic, we're very optimistic. We're going to continue to be. And Dre and Purvis will live in our hearts and we're not going to let this thing die. They're going to be in our hearts and in the hearts of all the families in Milwaukee.
ROWLANDS: Is there any criminal investigation going on, Anne Schwartz at all? Is that a parallel thing you're doing now, looking at the possibility that there has been some foul play here?
SCHWARTZ: Well, right now we don't have any evidence that a crime has been committed. You know, we have two little boys who have been gone a long time.
But we don't have any evidence that a crime has been committed. So this is a search and that is what this has been since Sunday night. This is a search, and a massive one, to try to find these boys.
ROWLANDS: All right, and let's give out that phone number one more time, 414-935-7401. Quentin Henning, Garry Henning, Anne Schwartz, thanks for joining us, and best of luck to all of you. Two boys missing since Sunday afternoon while playing outside in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Tomorrow night, Larry will be back from Washington, D.C. He is interviewing the first lady, Laura Bush. Hope you can join us for that. And that will do it for us tonight. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry. Now let's send it to New Orleans, "A.C. 360" and Anderson Cooper.
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