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CNN Larry King Live

Duke University Rape Scandal; Interview With Dave Holloway

Aired April 11, 2006 - 21:00   ET


MICHAEL NIFONG, DURHAM COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: My presence here means that this case is not going away.


LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, the D.A. won't drop his investigation of rape allegations against Duke University lacrosse players despite no DNA matches. Meanwhile, racial tensions keep simmering. We've got the latest from the scene.

And then, Natalee Holloway's father, Dave Holloway, nearly nine months after she vanished what does he really think happened to her and does he ever expect to see her again? We've also got some exclusive never before seen photos of Natalee.

And, we're going to take your calls all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening. Before we speak with Natalee Holloway's father an update on those sex crime allegations against members of the Duke University lacrosse team. Yesterday, a defense attorney said that DNA results failed to connect team members to the alleged victim. But today, the D.A. made his own announcement.

More on that now from our panel and they are in Durham, North Carolina, Tim Whitmire is the Associated Press writer. He's been reporting on this story since its inception.

Here in Los Angeles Mark Geragos, the defense attorney, famous for many famous clients.

In Miami, Stacey Honowitz, the Florida assistant state attorney who specializes in sex crimes and child abuse.

And, in New York, our old friend Dr. Michael Welner, forensic psychiatrist, founder and chairman of the forensic panel, associate professor of psychiatry NYU School of Medicine and developer of the depravity scale, an effort to formulate a standardized legal definition of evil.

Tim, on what basis is the prosecutor continuing this?

TIM WHITMIRE, ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTER: Well, it wasn't quite no DNA no problem today but he's emphatic that he's going forward with it and he's not really saying what else he's got. There's an assumption that he's got more obviously than just the DNA but he's made the point repeatedly that rape conviction -- rape trial -- rape accusations were tried and convicted for many, many years before DNA ever came along and that he intends to do it the good old-fashioned way.

KING: Now in that regard, Mark, prior to DNA if there was a rape charge and there was an examination, physical evidence, word against word, conviction or not conviction, many cases have been overturned when DNA evidence (INAUDIBLE).

MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When DNA comes along but you know the -- when he says he's going to do it the old-fashioned way what does that mean with no evidence? Because that's what he's got here.

He has a situation where the woman has told a story. The story was that she had -- that she would have had, on a family show I don't want to say the exacts but that she would have had evidence. There would have been evidence that would have been found on her that would have linked the gentlemen to that.

The gentlemen all said that's not true. Now, in addition to that you don't have one single one of these boys rolling over and saying "Wait a second, I'm not going to be part of that."

The idea that somehow you've got 46 guys who are uniform in a conspiracy is ludicrous and you've got the picture evidence. You can buy all of that. This really is outrageous that he's going forward with it.

KING: Stacey Honowitz, Abbe Lowell, the former prosecutor now defense attorney said today the big mistake made by the prosecutor here was going public at all. He should have just said "There's been an accusation. We're investigating." Why did he go -- why all the statements, why bringing in the team, why suspensions, why not just say we're investigating?

STACEY HONOWITZ: Well, listen it's a high profile case and certainly people are looking at it now and saying "Why did he do what he did?" He felt emphatic about this case and certainly as the district attorney he has the right to make any statements that he wants.

But now unfortunately with this big piece of evidence coming back not in the favor of the prosecution he is going to have to step back and not be in the limelight as much and I think that's what he's going to do. I think today's press conference I think he felt it was necessary to be there and I think it probably was necessary for him to be present today.

KING: Dr. Welner in the area of rape and forensics what's the dividing line for you?

DR. MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Oh, it's awfully hard in a case like this. You have a situation that presents itself daily to prostitutes, daily on college campuses, daily at spring break, where you have a fuzzy boundary created by alcohol, created by a group, created by an athletic team, created by strippers and exotic dancers, created in the context where what normally passes doesn't resemble what might happen between two people outside of those settings.

This is an excellent case for parents who are watching to discuss with their children about the choices that they make, the risks that they take but it is also a cautionary tale about pandering and looking beyond a crime that if it happened it's a crime against women, not a crime about race. And, if it did not happen, very careful that we are reminded to focus on evidence not just DNA but all evidence and working it through.

KING: By the way, the cousin of the alleged victim was interviewed by the anchor for ABC-11 Eyewitness News in Raleigh, North Carolina. We're going to show you a little of that now.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Literally she's frightened for her life. She has literally had death threats against her, against her children. She can't even go to her mother's house because the media they're waiting like wolves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is she in hiding right now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, she is, yes. She changes locations quite often.


KING: So, Tim Whitmire, that means the media knows who she is right?

WHITMIRE: Yes that's correct, Larry. I think -- one thing I want to add here is that there are still more DNA results due to come back that have been mentioned today as, you know, still being out there. They're waiting to hear back on those. Nobody knows what those are going to come back as but that's still sitting out there.

KING: Mark, do you think the prosecutor rushed to judgment?

GERAGOS: What happened is and the reason that the prosecutor is still out there saying that he's not going to let go is he's got an election coming up. He went out and he did 50-some odd hours worth of interviews.

He is now committed publicly to this case and vouching for this case, vouching meaning saying that he's out there saying he believes that this happened. He believed and he got the community worked up.

Last night we saw the clips of a parade going along. We saw people protesting, saying "Confess, confess." It was like a witch hunt and the idea that somehow we're supposed to feel sorry for the accuser now because she's being hunted by the media, what about the people who were accused who have, you know, we've got a coach who has resigned.

We've got a program that's been suspended and we've got boys who have had to hire lawyers and who have been outed all over the place? I mean I think frankly it was handled in the more irresponsible way that you can imagine.

KING: Stacey, how will you respond?

HONOWITZ: I think when anybody looks at this case they're going to say the media was all over both the lacrosse team and the victim and that's the -- that's the risk in any kind of case like this, a rape case or where there's a victim that the media sometimes gets so involved in the case that the investigation does become clouded.

In this case, like the cousin just said, she's been hunted down. She can't go out. She's gotten death threats. Well, you know what, we don't know all the facts of this case. Right now she's made some accusations. There are allegations pending against this person and people should leave her alone. And I think for Mark to say that it's all about politics...

GERAGOS: You know Stacey...

HONOWITZ:'s all about the fact that he's going to be...

GERAGOS: Stacey...

HONOWITZ: ...a D.A. that's everyone's answer to it.

GERAGOS: Could I tell you something? Just figure it out Stacey. This wasn't something where these purported and, you know, I don't know why we're calling her a victim. She's a complaining witness. This isn't something where she got out and she went to the media.

She went and she made a report, great. That's her right. She wants to as a complaining witness make a report. Well he doesn't have to go out there and heighten this into a national story to get the media out there by starting to compare the situation to other racially polarized situations that were there. He created the situation and that's the problem.

WELNER: I think it's more than that.

HONOWITZ: Mark, he didn't create this situation. He did not create this situation.

GERAGOS: He created the situation.

HONOWITZ: Something happened in his town...

WELNER: It's a little more than that.

HONOWITZ: ...a high profile case involving the lacrosse team.

GERAGOS: You can keep screaming it but there's no evidence, none. KING: Dr. Welner, go ahead.

WELNER: You know we have rape shield laws because victims are discouraged from coming forward especially if they're making allegations against a powerful person, even if a case doesn't get into the media. There are tremendous pressures on an alleged victim to not come forward.

There are pressures within a college community, concerns about liability. There are fans of an athletic team, things that transcend race. These kinds of questions and dilemmas come up all the time. It's very easy to pile it on to the media.


WELNER: And perhaps the media is zealous and aggressive.

GERAGOS: Right but it isn't...

WELNER: But at the same time you've got all these forces coming together and the most important thing to do is just follow through...

GERAGOS: The problem is...

WELNER: ...the evidence to the end and then see who has handled it responsibly.

GERAGOS: The problem is (INAUDIBLE) just explain something.

HONOWITZ: The bottom line to all of this is...

KING: One at a time.

GERAGOS: The problem is this is not the Duke lacrosse team, I beg to differ is not the Duke basketball team. Nobody gives a hoot about the Duke lacrosse team except when you go...

WELNER: The Duke lacrosse team cares about the Duke lacrosse team.

HONOWITZ: Well obviously you do.

GERAGOS: ...outside of their immediate family. After you go outside and you start having somebody conducting press conferences, going wall-to-wall on cable and on the national media to create this story of course the media is going to follow it because it's got all of the issues that they want. If he had just said there was going to be an investigation that would have been the end of that.

HONOWITZ: No, it wouldn't have been the end to that at all. It absolutely would not have been the end of it.

KING: All right, let me get a break. Hold on. I'm going to get a break and we'll be right back. I'm going to get -- all right, I'll get a break and we'll be right back.

We'll also try to include some of your phone calls in this half hour. Don't go away.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're portraying her as this, you know, Jezebel that, you know, and that seems to be the thing. It goes from stripper to escort back to stripper. She's a human being. She's a very sweet girl, very humble, you know. She's very quiet and she loves her kids.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe that she really was raped?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe something happened in that house. I really do believe that because knowing her I know that this is not something she would have made up.




NIFONG: This case is proceeding the way a case should proceed. I am trying to determine exactly what the evidence is that we have to proceed on and to assemble that evidence before anyone is charged. But, as I said earlier, I assure you by my presence here this case is not over.


KING: Tim Whitmire, as an Associated Press reporter, if this had occurred, if the lacrosse team, if a defendant had come and charged the lacrosse team and all the prosecutor had said was "We're investigating," and the police said "We're investigating," would this have been a national story?

WHITMIRE: I think I mean it's got all the ingredients. That's, I mean that's been seen throughout this whole thing race, sex, privileged (INAUDIBLE).

KING: So no matter what the prosecutor said? No matter what the prosecutor said this would have been a big story?

WHITMIRE: Yes, I think so. One thing I want to correct from earlier. This was not a news conference that Mr. Nifong held today. There was a community forum held at North Carolina Central which is the historically black university that the young woman attends and this was a chance to sort of clear the air there, get some of these people up there to talk to the community there. He was responding to questions not from reporters who -- he actually didn't talk to any of us today but from members of the North Carolina Central community.

KING: Dr. Welner, without DNA, what does a forensic psychiatrist look for?

WELNER: There is a lot of evidence here and we've already seen that the photographic evidence aids in a reconstruction of events. She wasn't the only stripper who went there. There was someone else. There were a number of people there.

You interview. You learn how the story hangs together and you follow whatever material evidence, physical beyond DNA establishes what her actions were before she went to that party.

There was a sexual assault exam done in the hospital. That has to be matched up with what the nurse and physician knew before they did the exam and then, and then if there's some dubiousness to the story, then the motive of the accuser is explored to the extent that evidence allows.

Again, rape shield laws serve a purpose. Sometimes they can get in the way of untangling a story but in my professional experience this is not at all an uncommon scenario.

What distinguishes this is that attention was brought to the Duke campus and the athletic programs whereas in other universities and athletic programs this kind of activity is not unusual and it gets swept under the rug and that accounts for some of the tension in an academic center that prides itself on not being your typical Atlantic Coast Conference school.

KING: Stacey, are you puzzled by the fact that no DNA is linked to any of these fellows? Are you puzzled?

HONOWITZ: No, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised at all. I mean certainly we don't know what all the evidence is. We don't even know what the victim told the police or told the D.A. And, Mark keeps saying she said this, she said that, I don't know where he's got that information from so I say...

GERAGOS: It certainly hasn't stopped you from convicting these guys has it?

HONOWITZ: I've said -- Mark. Mark. Mark.

GERAGOS: It certainly hasn't stopped you from having a presumption of guilt in this case has it?

HONOWITZ: Let me tell you something.

GERAGOS: I've been waiting.

HONOWITZ: Everyone is presumed innocent. I don't know the facts in the case and you don't know the facts in the case. All I'm telling you is...

GERAGOS: Then why do you keep assuming -- then why do you assume that there is evidence?

HONOWITZ: All I'm telling you is with the DNA, you don't need DNA.

GERAGOS: Why do you assume? Why do you assume that there's evidence? Why aren't you out there saying...

HONOWITZ: I'm assuming -- let me tell you something.

GERAGOS: ...that you haven't heard of any evidence that would bring charges? Why aren't you as a good prosecutor...

HONOWITZ: Why are you -- why are you saying that?

GERAGOS: Why are you?

HONOWITZ: Because I'm a prosecutor and I'm telling you that if there's a case where I don't have DNA I don't drop the ball just based on that, absolutely not.

GERAGOS: And do you go -- do you go out...

HONOWITZ: Can I finish what I'm saying?

GERAGOS: I'm just asking one question.

HONOWITZ: Let me finish what I'm saying.

GERAGOS: Do you go out and do you announce...

HONOWITZ: I'll answer your question.

GERAGOS: ...that you believe the complaining witness?

KING: All right, one at a time.

GERAGOS: Do you say that you believe the complaining witness?

HONOWITZ: Wait a second. Wait a second.

GERAGOS: Do you announce that to the public before you file charges?

HONOWITZ: Let me -- first of all I'm not holding press conferences and telling people that I believe somebody that came into my office. All I'm telling you is we do not know what the complete evidence is. The general public, you and I, every talking head knows that the DNA didn't come back. It did not match anybody. That doesn't mean that a prosecutor drops the ball, stands up, throws in the towel and says it's all over.

GERAGOS: Well does it mean -- does it mean Stacey...

HONOWITZ: Obviously this prosecutor is doing what every good prosecutor is doing Mark.

GERAGOS: Which is what like go out -- go out...

HONOWITZ: He's investigating further. Are you just completely discounting any kind of (INAUDIBLE)?

GERAGOS: No. What I want to ask you -- what I want to ask you Stacey is if you say this guy is like every good prosecutor then explain something to me. HONOWITZ: Wait, I can't hear.

GERAGOS: When he goes out and he says he believes the complaining witness and he says that they've got the evidence and that he's not letting go of the case, isn't he just polluting the jury pool? Isn't that all he's doing?

KING: All right, Dr. Welner...


KING: Dr. Welner wants to add something. Michael, go ahead.

WELNER: Yes. I think that it's important and I want to emphasize that I can appreciate the points that Mark is making. I'm just sharing my professional experience. There are a lot of prosecutors out there that unless the evidence is handed to them on a silver platter they will not prosecute a case even if they silently believe that a sexual assault occurred.

I think it is important for the community and I'm not talking about a black community or a white community because I professionally do not see this as a racial case.


WELNER: I will say that it's important for the community, it is important for the community to see that rape charges are taken seriously by a prosecuting authority just so that they'll investigate it all the way through before they make a decision.

KING: Hold it Mark. I got to get a break.

WELNER: It is very easy to dismiss...

HONOWITZ: That's true.

WELNER: ...a victim and it is important at a pre-stage to just give the community a sense that we're going to probe it carefully before making those kinds of decisions because it's fair to the victim.

KING: I got to get a break and we'll be -- I got to get a break Michael. We'll be right back. Don't go away.



BILL THOMAS, ATTORNEY FOR DUKE LACROSSE PLAYERS: Our experts tell us that the gang rape by three men would leave DNA material to be examined. Also the D.A. said in his filing with the court that DNA evidence would conclusively prove who was guilty and would also clear the innocent. I take him at his word. I think that's a correct statement and I think this test clears these young men conclusively.


KING: Joining us now from Durham is Deneesha Edwards, the editor-in-chief of North Carolina's Central University newspaper. Deneesha wasn't at today's community forum but watched it on TV. What's your sense of the mood now? How's the case affecting students at your school?

DENEESHA EDWARDS, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL UNIVERSITY CAMPUS ECHO: A lot of students are very upset right now because they feel it's been a month since the incident happened and no one has been charged.

Furthermore, nobody has even been arrested in the case and they feel like by now somebody should have been arrested or something should have happened to some of the members of the lacrosse team that the young lady says attacked her.

And they're also upset that they feel like the media is portraying the young lady as a stripper and they're not mentioning that she is a mother of two and she is also a student at Central. They're just looking at her profession. But the students are still standing by her 110 percent.

KING: Do you Deneesha tend to believe her off the top? Do you believe the story?

EDWARDS: I do. I can't think of any reason why a young lady would come forward and say she was raped when she really wasn't, so I do believe her.

KING: Do you think they're going to get to the bottom of it?

EDWARDS: Yes, I do. I do believe it might take some time and everybody might have to be patients but I do believe the truth is going to come out.

KING: North Carolina Central is a primarily black school?

EDWARDS: Yes, it is.

KING: So, would you say the students tend to side with the accuser?

EDWARDS: Yes, they can. I mean they're going to support her no matter what. They're behind her 110 percent. She is one of our fellow Eagles, so they're behind her. If she says she was attacked and raped, then they're going to believe her.

KING: Deneesha, thank you very much.

Tim Whitmire, is there any doubt in your mind that this is in part a racial story?

WHITMIRE: There's clearly that component to it. I mean one of the things you saw today at the forum at N.C. Central was that, you know, when the district attorney started out by making a point that this case is not over that he's continuing on with it there was a lot of applause for him, a lot of support from the audience.

As the forum went on and he took more questions from members of the community people started to question, well why isn't anybody in jail yet? If these were black athletes from North Carolina Central, there would be somebody in jail. And the tone turned somewhat. He was under attack from some of the people who he says he's trying to protect.

KING: Mark, you can't deny that there is a racial aspect here?

GERAGOS: Oh, not -- I don't deny it for a second, in fact I tend to agree with some of the audience members who were asking questions. If this were black athletes would they be in jail right now, yes. It happens across the U.S. all the time. An accusation is made. Somebody is thrown in jail.

I told you last month that I had the same situation where a guy had been accused. The accuser said it is him and then we finally tested DNA evidence after my guy languishes for three months in jail and it positively excludes him.

So, I've seen it. I've been on the receiving end so to speak with clients and I understand people's frustrations. But it's part of what happens in the criminal justice system.

KING: Stacey, the lawyer that we saw in the clip was saying that the D.A. had said that he was looking forward to the DNA evidence.

HONOWITZ: Right. Well certainly I'm sure he was and see this is where we have to wait and see what's coming out. Certainly if the victim is changing her story, if she said that she believed that there was biological evidence, ergo she believed that they ejaculated inside of her, there might be semen, something like that and now she's -- and now nothing comes back and matches, well that's certainly, you know, something for the D.A. to look at.

GERAGOS: Something to look at?

HONOWITZ: But I want you to remember one thing and your viewers -- Mark. Mark, let me talk. I'm going to finish. I'm going to finish what I have to say.


KING: Let her say it.

GERAGOS: Finish, just keep talking.

HONOWITZ: Of course he's looking for -- of course he's looking forward to seeing if there's DNA. In any rape case if there's DNA, if there's extra, if there's evidence to corroborate the D.A. wants it but you know in a lot of cases you are not going to get it.

GERAGOS: You don't have it, right.

HONOWITZ: And that's why this D.A. is saying "I'm not dropping the ball. We have to move forward. We have to investigate further. It's not dispositive."

KING: OK. Dr. Welner, do you expect a conclusive conclusion (INAUDIBLE)?

WELNER: I think the evidence will solve it but I want to say that I beg to differ about this race issue. I think it's a travesty that this is made as a race issue. I think that black athletes are let go routinely around the United States and I think that there should be as much of a protest in this with white athletes involved. There should be just as much protest when black women are victimized by black men. I think that it is a disgrace.

GERAGOS: Nobody is saying...

WELNER: Well, Mark, you're done talking.

GERAGOS: Nobody is saying...

WELNER: Let me explain.

GERAGOS: Nobody is saying -- no, doc, doc...

KING: Give him the time OK.

WELNER: I think this is a matter -- I think that this is a matter of evidence driving the legitimacy of a prosecution. Blacks have been victimized by this for years and I think that now that we've advanced at least somewhat as a society...

GERAGOS: Blacks have been...

WELNER: ...justice should be colorblind and people...

GERAGOS: Blacks have been...

WELNER: ...should not be thrown to the wolves to pander to political agendas.

GERAGOS: Which is exactly -- which is exactly what's happening.

WELNER: Whether we are in the law, as Mark is, or whether -- or whether we are forensic scientists we must let evidence drive the process not pandering.

KING: OK, guys. Thanks again. We'll stay on top of this. Tim Whitmire, Mark Geragos, Stacey Honowitz, Dr. Michael Welner and our other guests as well.

And when we come back Dave Holloway, Natalee Holloway's father, not only will we talk with him but he's brought along some extraordinary photos never before shown of his daughter. Don't go away.


KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE and welcome back to our special guest. Eighteen year old Natalee Holloway disappeared last May 30th and hasn't been seen or heard from since. Tonight her father Dave Holloway joins us. He's written a new book titled "Aruba: The Tragic Untold Story of Natalee Holloway and Corruption in Paradise."

He has also brought with him a few dozen photos of Natalee, pictures that have never before seen by the public and you'll be seeing those some of those throughout tonight's show and we thank you for making them available to us and welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. Usually it's been by split screen, you've been in Aruba or Mississippi and nice to have you here. Why did you write this?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, FATHER OF MISSING NATALEE HOLLOWAY: A number of reasons, primarily to get the word out and let somebody look at it and maybe they can come up with some answers on what really did happen. There's some other reasons as well.

I had a number of people approach me about writing a book. I initially declined. Then I got the message a book was going to be written with or without me, did I want to be a part of it, yes or no, and I finally decided I wanted to be part of it and I wanted to get my side of the story out.

KING: You and her mother are divorced? Do you know if she's planning something?

HOLLOWAY: I don't know.

KING: Are you friendly?

HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes.

KING: Has she remarried?


KING: An you are friendly all the way around?


KING: Where were you when Natalee went missing?

HOLLOWAY: I was sitting on the back porch enjoying Memorial Day weekend, getting ready to cook a steak. I got a phone call from my younger son, Matt, and he indicated that Beth was on her way to Aruba and that Natalee had missed her plane flight. SO he thought, maybe she missed the flight and she'll rebook the next day.

He was optimistic it was something very simple. I was concerned because I knew Natalee was very prompt, never late, always on time and it concerned me very greatly. I then called Aruba, found out the hotel and talked to a drug enforcement detective, and he indicated they didn't know much, they were just starting to try to figure out what was going on.

KING: Were you concerned when she went there? HOLLOWAY: When it first popped up, I've never been to Aruba, I didn't know where it was located, she laid some papers out, Dad, I want to go to Aruba with my classmates. I had a concern about that.

KING: Was she what you would call a good girl?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely. Straight A student, 4.1 grade average. Her life was ahead of her. She planned every move she made, a very timely person.

KING: When along the way I did you start to get really worried?

HOLLOWAY: I was really worried that day. Absolutely. I booked a flight to go to Aruba the next day on a commercial airline and my son called me late that night and indicated that, you know, her flight was rebooked the next day. So I canceled the appointment, thought somebody rebooked it.

KING: Had rebooked her flight.

HOLLOWAY: Had rebooked it. It was a precautionary measure. Still concerned, I thought maybe something did happen she did miss the flight. I canceled out about 1:00 in the morning. In Meridian, Mississippi, it's not easy to get out to Aruba.

The next morning, 8:00 or 9:00, I realized she was not getting on that flight.

KING: What happened when you got there?

HOLLOWAY: What happened when I got there?

KING: Don't worry about that.

HOLLOWAY: We first got on the island, had an extra day to prepare, I rented a rental car and we're looking at two days of her missing. We drove around, got lost, found the first police station. I walked in, identified myself. I was in a panic state. My brother was there, my brother-in-law was there to help hold me up.

I went to the desk and asked the detective if he was handling the case. He acted like he didn't know what I was talking about, if I had filed a complaint? I said, no, Natalee Holloway, she's been reported missing in the last two days?

He summoned all the rest of the officers up there, they didn't know about it.

KING: Really?

HOLLOWAY: The Arubans are, all the common people are very helpful and always wanted to help. One of the guys picked up a newspaper, there it is right in there the newspaper, reported today. I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm really in for it.

KING: Was your wife there, too? HOLLOWAY: No. She was off somewhere else on the island. I didn't make contact with her until later.

KING: Did a time come when you figured you ain't going to see her again?

HOLLOWAY: Initially, I had that feeling before I left Meridian, just knowing her personality, I knew something probably happened, but I was just hoping it didn't.

KING: Were there time is a long the way you got encouraging feelings?

HOLLOWAY: I was always encouraged. I'm a very optimistic and positive person and I thought if I didn't find her while I was searching, in my mind, I thought that was positive because we eliminated a negative result. Unfortunately, after 75 days, we still didn't find her.

KING: The book is "Aruba: The Tragic Untold Story Natalee Holloway and Corruption in Paradise." We'll find out why Dave calls it corruption. We're taking your phone calls and showing you pictures you've never seen before. Don't go away.


KING: We're back with Dave Holloway. What's been the impact of all of this on you and the current wife?

HOLLOWAY: You know, it's been tough, Larry. You know, we've just basically put our life on hold for the last 11 months. But we're making it through it.

KING: What's your theory? What's the latest you know? What's the status of the investigation? Where are we?

HOLLOWAY: Well they just cleared the sand dunes this past week and then coincidentally they had a Dutch program, similar to "America;s Most Wanted." They came in and did a reenactment of the car and this type of stuff, hoping they would jog somebody's memory and get some tips and leads.

KING: That's running tonight right?

HOLLOWAY: That ran today.

KING: It's called "Arrest Requested?"


KING: Do you hope that will do some help?

HOLLOWAY: Well, I'm hoping. We've had the American media involved all this time and I'm hoping that maybe if the Dutch are involved, they will have some confidence in coming forward for this Dutch program. KING: Do you have your own theory?

HOLLOWAY: I do have a theory, a 90 percent, I guess and what concerns me is the police really haven't followed it.

KING: Which is?

HOLLOWAY: Well I think the three boys are still the primary suspects and I think they included some of their friends and I think they used a boat.

KING: And threw her in the ocean?

HOLLOWAY: Possibly.

KING: Do you have any idea as to why?

HOLLOWAY: Why they did that? Well like they their daddy said, no body, no case.

KING: So in other words, once they raped her or whatever they did, they had to get rid of the body?

HOLLOWAY: If it was accidental, you wouldn't do that.

KING: So do you have any hope, any hope of possibly seeing her?

HOLLOWAY: Well, as my little girl said the other day, every time Robin gets emotional, she's my daughter, eight-years-old she says, "Mommy, just think about this. She's on vacation for a long period of time, but we'll see her again." That gives us hope.

KING: You said you like the Aruban people?

HOLLOWAY: I do. They've all been very friendly.

KING: All trying to help?

HOLLOWAY: All trying to help.

KING: Officials trying to help?

HOLLOWAY: Now that's a different story.

KING: What do you think went wrong there?

HOLLOWAY: I think you have a combination of the police probably turning their head the other way. You know, you stop and think about it. You've got a 17-year-old kid where the legal drinking age in Aruba is 18, the legal gambling age is 18 and legal driving age is 18.

He violated all these rules and gambled with his father in the casino. So if the police turn a blind eye on that, what are they going to do if he gets in more serious trouble?

KING: Why do you think they do, why turn a blind eye? HOLLOWAY: I think probably tourism has a big thing to do with it. Because I know when I arrived on the island, I got up to do a search the next day and I was approached by someone representing the tourism authority that they did not want me doing a search because it would bring too much media attention to the island.

KING: No kidding?

HOLLOWAY: No kidding.

KING: You have never gone through anything like a mock funeral, right?

HOLLOWAY: As far as Natalee's case, no. We did see a cross that somebody erected right there where the boat launch is and had her initials put up on the corner. We took pictures and that was the last day I stayed on the island.

KING: There's a news story out of Aruba today that police said that they were looking for a woman who allegedly harassed a woman on the beach nine days before your daughter went missing. A tourist reported that a man in his twenties harassed her on the same beach where a Dutch youth says he dropped off Holloway the night she disappeared. "

We have no concrete proof that this incident has any relation to Natalee's disappearance, but we can't disregard it," the official said. What do you make of that?

HOLLOWAY: That's old news, Larry.

KING: It's not old, it just came out.

HOLLOWAY: Well, it is. The FBI did a profile probably three or four months ago, the lady met with the FBI. They did a profile, she identified the vehicle, gave a very good identification of the individual.

When I was in Aruba, back in October, Art Wood and I were traveling around. We saw the guy, someone that looked just like what she had identified. We wrote down the tag number and gave it to the police.

KING: Art Wood told me he was going to stay, he was convinced he was going to get an answer. He's some guy.

HOLLOWAY: Oh yes. And what gets me is they know the identity of the vehicle. You have an island that has -- all the cars. Why can't they run a license check on all the Suzukis?

KING: Let's take a call for Dave Holloway. The book is "Aruba: The Tragic Untold Story of Natalee Holloway and Corruption in Paradise." Plymouth, Michigan, hello.

CALLER: Hello.


CALLER: When they first brought out the story about Natalee, they talked about Joran and his friends and one of the friends was described as being an operator or owner of a party boat.

And it just makes sense to me that if they were going to get rid of the body, he would have his friend take her out in a party boat and dump her. I'm wondering why they haven't grilled this guy until he would -- I mean, no more has been said about him. Why wouldn't they grill him until they could find out, if that were the case? And no mention has ever been made of that again.

HOLLOWAY: I think that individual was possibly Steve Croes, the guy the D.J. on the party barge. He was one of Deepak's alibis. And he was arrested and they did talk to him and then they finally released him.

KING: Many of the pictures you're seeing have never been shown before, brought along by Dave for this appearance tonight. The book is "Aruba: The Tragic Untold Story of Natalee Holloway and Corruption in Paradise." We'll continue with Dave with more of your phone calls.

Now let's check in with Anderson Cooper, the host of "A.C. 360." Anderson, what's up tonight?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, coming up at the top of the hour, Iran says it has gone nuclear. The president of that country today said they have joined the nuclear club and that is a powerful, and to many people, very scary proposition. All the angles on that story tonight, including what Don Rumsfeld said about the speculation the U.S. might strike Iran soon.

We'll also continue our look at the battle on the border and give you an idea of what it would cost you if there were no low-wage immigrant workers. You might be surprised at the impact. All that and more, Larry, at the top of the hour.

KING: Thanks, Anderson. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" at 10:00 Eastern. And we'll be right back with more of Dave Holloway right after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who's our guest today?

NATALEE HOLLOWAY: It's hootie (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hootie-who (ph) Holloway.

NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Hi, friends. Just, you know, sitting in the back, cruising over to my place and you're doing an excellent job. And I just want to say happy birthday. You know, you look like a new woman and I'm sure you feel like one, too. And the beach was a blast. I had the best time of my time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you properly buckled, Hootie. Oh, you're not.


KING: Our guest is Dave Holloway. A portion of the proceeds will go to the Natalee Holloway Foundation for Missing Persons. A portion of the proceeds from this book will go to the Natalee Holloway Foundation for Missing Persons, a portion of the pros from this book. Omaha, Nebraska.

CALLER: Hello, Mr. Holloway. We were told you visited Joran in jail and give him a copy of "The Purpose Driven Life." Is that true and why did you give it to him?

HOLLOWAY: I did meet with Joran in jail? In fact his father, mother and a few other guests stopped me outside the prison and I asked to meet with him and he would not oblige.

KING: Are you fan of that book?

HOLLOWAY: What book?

KING: "Purposes Driven Life."

HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes.

KING: Were you happy the media was as involved as it was?

HOLLOWAY: Let me tell you this, if the media hadn't shown up, this case would have been swept under the table the first day.

KING: Why do you think it drew such interest?

HOLLOWAY: I asked an AP writer about that showed up on the island a month or so after the event. A lot of people asked that question. He said there was not any news going on and it hit the wires and one guy said, hey, boss, let me cover that story. He did and everybody else followed.

KING: And people thought about their own kids. Patascla, Ohio. Hello.

CALLER: Hi, Mr. Holloway. I was curious. At one time, the Van Der Sloot property was going to be searched and he would not let anybody search his property. I know there was a well on his property. Has anybody ever been able to search that property?

HOLLOWAY: I don't think they've ever been able to search his residence, per se, but I do understand some dogs were passed by that well in question a number of times.

KING: Why did you use the word corruption in the title?

HOLLOWAY: Corruption?

KING: Corruption in paradise. HOLLOWAY: When you walk to the police station, when I finally got to the right one, the police detective asked me how much money I had. It kind of shocked me because I didn't know what they really meant. We chalked that up as one red flag and all of a sudden, it started looking like a surveying field. Then you start thinking, what's going on?

There's a number of them we point out in the book.

KING: Did you have to make payoffs?

HOLLOWAY: No, I did not. I didn't know what he was talking about at the time. The second time around he asked me again, we were just individual to individual, no witnesses or anything like that. The second time, I thought he was talking about reward money and he changed the subject.

KING: Were you surprised that the Natalee you knew went partying that night?

HOLLOWAY: Well, I know when kids, 135 of them, go on an island and it's graduation, they're going to have a good time. It did surprise me a little bit that she was drinking what they said she was drinking and it really shocked me that she got in the car with someone else.

KING: Where was she going to go to college?

HOLLOWAY: The University of Alabama. I was hoping she would major in pre-med.

KING: Really? And be a doctor?

We'll be back in a few moments with Dave Holloway and more of your calls. Don't go away.


KING: We're back with Dave Holloway. Rochester, New York.

CALLER: I'd like to know where were the chaperones when Natalee was out?

HOLLOWAY: As far as I know, there were seven or eight chaperones. I'm not sure where all of them were, some were scattered around the hotel. There may have even been one at Carlos and Charlie's. I'm not sure of that.

KING: Have you talked to a lot of the other students?

HOLLOWAY: I really haven't. Beth talked to all the students and the FBI talked to all the students. I spent most of my time on the island. I was there 75 days constantly searching.

KING: The FBI do a credible job?

HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes, the FBI always does a good job.

KING: West Monroe, Louisiana. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, Larry, thanks for having me on your show. I'd just like to ask Mr. Holloway if he's ever considered the fact that his lovely daughter might have been sold into sexual slavery since it's all around the island of Aruba.

HOLLOWAY: We thought of that as a possibility. The way this investigation has gone, a lot of bizarre things have happened, it's possible. A lot of the evidence points the other direction. The FBI indicated to us on June the 10th, this was being investigated as a homicide case. The Arubans finally admitted it was sometime in October and that's the direction they're pointing as well.

KING: Tragically, that would be a hope.

HOLLOWAY: I guess I'm still in denial. I know Beth has conceded, our family just -- you just hope for a miracle, you never know.

KING: La Vista, Nebraska. Hello.

CALLER: My question is, have you gotten any assistance from psychics or are you willing to take any assistance from psychics or any kind of dreams that people have seen for information?

HOLLOWAY: I haven't directly solicited a psychic. I have had some come to us. In fact, there was one on the island that gave her input. I've had literally hundreds give input via e-mail.

KING: There's no way to deal with losing a child, is there?

HOLLOWAY: No. It's tough, especially when you don't know. You think sometimes it might be easier if it was just a car wreck and you can have closure. In this case, you wonder day-to-day, you know, is she out there or not? Finally, after a period of time, you finally start trying to concede she may not be with us.

KING: There's always that little bit of--

HOLLOWAY: Yes, still hold on to that thread, can't give it up.

KING: Don't. Dave Holloway. The book is "Aruba: The Tragic Untold Story of Natalee Holloway and Corruption in Paradise." We thank Dave Holloway for being our guest.

Speaking of crime, we have a crime expert returning tomorrow night, Dominic Dunn, one of our favorite people, the writer of many books and, of course, "Vanity Fair" correspondent. Dominick Dunn tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE.

Right now it's time to turn things over to New York City. Anderson Cooper for the next two hours, the host of "AC 360." Anderson, take it.