Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Larry King Live

Panel Discusses John Mark Karr Arrest

Aired August 17, 2006 - 21:00   ET


JOHN MARK KARR, JOHN BENET RAMSEY MURDER SUSPECT: I love JonBenet and she died accidentally.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN HOST: Tonight, a shocking confession and an arrest in JonBenet Ramsey's murder. After ten years of private tragedy and public spectacle is there finally a break in the most sensational cold case of our time? Who is the suspect? How did he get caught? And, did he do it?

We've got the latest with the sisters of JonBenet's late mother Patsy Ramsey, a former next door neighbor of the suspect, and a reporter who spoke with him. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.


ROWLANDS: Welcome everybody to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry tonight in Boulder, Colorado where tonight the district attorney here is urging people to use caution and not rush to judgment even though there has been an arrest in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

A 41-year-old traveling schoolteacher, John Karr, is under -- in custody in Bangkok, Thailand. He was arrested yesterday. Today, the suspect actually talked to the media.

Before we do anything, let's listen in to see what the person who authorities here believe killed JonBenet Ramsey has to say.


KARR: I loved JonBenet very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you just give us a brief statement, please?

KARR: I love JonBenet and she died accidentally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you an innocent man? Are you an innocent man?



KARR: Her death was -- was an accident. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you were in the basement?

KARR: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us about your connection to the Ramsey family?

KARR: No comment on that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you get into the basement to play with her?

KARR: No comment on that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how do you feel now? How are you being treated?

KARR: I'm being treated OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How long had you known JonBenet?

KARR: No comment on that.


ROWLANDS: It is still unclear tonight whether John Karr is the answer to this ten-year-old mystery or is this another bizarre piece to the puzzle in this case? We're learning more about John Karr and his history tonight.

Dan Simon is a CNN correspondent and he is in Petaluma, California where John Karr used to live with his wife and children. Dan, what are you learning about the life of this suspect?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ted, there are a couple different things at play here. John Karr applied to become a substitute teacher here in northern California in the year 2000 and he was accepted and he taught for a few months. Everything checked out according to the superintendent. He passed a background check.

But then there's also this paper trail surrounding him. We went to the Sonoma County Courthouse today and literally got documents about this high and it dealt with an ongoing Criminal Court case that he was involved in. He is accused of having child pornography on his computer. This was a 2001 case. It never got to trial because he skipped town.

He was also involved in a very messy divorce. It had been ongoing and his wife had said some really ugly things about him in these court documents. But, here's the rub and this is the most important thing, while he was going through this messy divorce his ex- wife is now saying that in 1996 at the time of JonBenet's murder that they were together in the state of Alabama that they weren't even in the state of Colorado.

So, she says there's no way he could have done this. She has hired an attorney and that attorney has told her to go through all the family albums, look at all the years, go find 1996 and go show the world that the two of you were indeed on vacation or in another part of the country back in 1996 and that will prove John Karr's innocence. And this is a woman who certainly has no love for this man anymore in light of this messy divorce, yet here she is apparently trying to defend him -- Ted.

ROWLANDS: Did John Karr ever have a conviction in that case? What happened to the case with the child pornography?

SIMON: Well, he pleaded not guilty and was out on bail. A trial date, as far as we know, was never set. He was supposed to come to court for a routine -- he was supposed to come to court for a routine court appearance, didn't show up, and then the judge put out a bench warrant. And the next thing we know he's found in Thailand. Nobody had really seen or heard from him since -- Ted.

ROWLANDS: OK, that's one of the big things his ex-wife claiming that he wasn't even in the state of Colorado when JonBenet Ramsey was murdered, a possible alibi for this 41-year-old schoolteacher who claims that he killed the 6-year-old back in 1996.

A reporter that interviewed him today is Jocelyn Gecker. She is in Thailand. She is joining us by phone tonight.

But, before we talk to Jocelyn, let's listen to some of the interview she did with Karr today.


KARR: I've contacted the Ramsey family, especially before Patricia passed away and I conveyed to her many things, among them that I am so very sorry for what happened to JonBenet. And it's very important for me that everyone knows that I love her very much and that her death was unintentional and it was an accident.

I made several efforts to communicate with Patricia before she passed away and it's my understanding that she did read my letters and she was aware of me before she passed away.


KARR: It would take several hours to describe that.

GECKER: If you could be brief.

KARR: There's no way that I could be brief about -- there's no way I can be brief about it.


ROWLANDS: Jocelyn, what were your impressions of this guy? It seems like he didn't want to give too many details here and there are a lot of people that believe that he actually didn't do this and he's just trying to interject himself into a high profile case. What are your thoughts after meeting him?

GECKER (by telephone): Well, he's definitely been very careful with his words. While police have told us that he admitted to killing her, publicly the statements that he's made have been a little less revealing. He said that he was with her when she died. He said he was alone with her in the basement of the Ramsey's home. He didn't elaborate on that.

When asked if he had committed the crime, he was vague. He didn't want to answer the question. When asked again if he was innocent he said "No." And then he said her death was unintentional and that it was an accident.

ROWLANDS: Are you getting anything from Thai authorities? Colorado authorities are not commenting on the case at all. What have you learned in Thailand?

GECKER: Well, Thai authorities have said that he after being arrested, after being arrested on Wednesday in Bangkok, he admitted to -- to taking her home, drugging her and raping her but this only -- this doesn't answer too many questions because at the time of JonBenet Ramsey's murder schools were closed. It was December 26th. They were closed for Christmas break. When her body was autopsied there was no evidence of drugs or sexual assault on her body.

ROWLANDS: Clearly, I mean it really just doesn't make sense. What he is telling you and telling the world doesn't jibe with what happened in this case. Did you get the feeling that he was lying to you? And what was your feeling when he sort of avoided your questions when you tried to pry him for more information?

GECKER: You know, it was very -- it was very tough to tell. I mean certainly the big question is, is he the culprit? Based on the information that we're getting, one would -- one would think yes, you know. He's saying, according to police, that he did it. But, at the same time, he's being careful with what he says publicly. I think there's a lot more that he said to police and we just have to wait and see, you know, as more details come out.

ROWLANDS: All right, Jocelyn Gecker, Associated Press reporter, who talked to the suspect today in Thailand joining us by phone, thank you very much. It was a fascinating interview and fascinating comments from this suspect in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

Coming up, we're going to talk to a sister of Patsy Ramsey. We'll find out what she knew about the latest developments in this case before her tragic death a few months ago.

As we go to break, here is John and Patsy Ramsey on LARRY KING LIVE, when Larry interviewed them in the year 2000. Stay with us.


LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Why would someone send a ransom note to kidnap someone and then kill them and leave them in the same house?


KING: If their purpose is to get money?

J. RAMSEY: Larry, this person is a madman. It's a monster. They don't think logically.

KING: Pedophile?

J. RAMSEY: We think it was a pedophile. We think it was a male. There are several key pieces of evidence that we think will lead us to the killer, male, pedophile. We think a stun gun was involved so this person either had a stun gun or had access to one.

The number 118 had significance to this person, $118,000 was the amount of the ransom note. That was -- that was picked for a purpose. We don't know what the purpose is. S.B.T.C. meant something to this killer. That was how the ransom note was signed. And this person was in Boulder, Colorado on December 25th.

We're not looking for a needle in a haystack.



ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry tonight.

Joining us from Atlanta, Georgia is Pam Paugh, a sister of Patsy Ramsey. Pam, obviously for the Ramsey family this has been a ten year nightmare for John and Patsy Ramsey specifically. They were accused of possibly having something to do with their daughter's death for so long and still people believe that they had something to do with JonBenet's death.

From your standpoint, what are your thoughts tonight ten years now almost since this 6-year-old was murdered, an arrest finally in the case?

PAM PAUGH, SISTER OF PATSEY RAMSEY: Well, we're terribly pleased, Ted, that something, that anything appears to be happening with what we thought otherwise might be a totally cold case for perhaps an eternity. But we're not rushing to any judgment on this individual. We'll let the court systems handle that.

ROWLANDS: Now, the suspect has said that he contacted Patsy, and John Ramsey has released in a statement that they were aware of significant developments in the case and that Patsy before her death was aware of it. Is it your understanding that indeed she did know that there was a significant development in this case before she died?

PAUGH: I know that before Patsy's passing that she and John were both involved in very private, very detail-oriented meetings with respect to Mary Keenan Lacy and what was going on with the investigation. Do I know what was said in those meetings? No, that was kept very quiet and private. And, do I know that this particular gentleman's name was mentioned? No, I do not. Do I know of any contact that he may have made with Patsy prior to her death? I am aware of none.

ROWLANDS: Your sister died of cancer a few months ago after going through this ten year nightmare. Are you confident that she passed knowing that there was going to be a resolution in this case?

PAUGH: I'm confident of two things. The first thing is that when Patsy passed, she left this earthly place with a clear conscience. I'm also just as confident, Ted, that when she passed she went with a full understanding that God is in control and that at some point in time the truth will come to the surface.

ROWLANDS: Give us an indication how tough this ten years has been for your entire family.

PAUGH: Well, stress of this nature tends to age you a great deal. It tends to make you have to work harder at finding joy. It tends to make you have to watch your children more closely, perhaps not let them do things that normally you would say, "Sure, go ahead. Go to the mall with a group of friends." You just can't do that when you're living as an adult in this situation under this type of fear.

Remember that when the rest of the world thought that everything was just peachy keen out there and they were also wondering why Patsy and John hadn't been arrested yet that for sure one of them had done this terrible thing, we inside the family knew for a fact that there was still a mad killer out there on the streets. And so we have lived in fear of that for all these many years and that does take a toll on you. It probably did affect Patsy's health a great deal.

ROWLANDS: This 41-year-old traveling schoolteacher with some history apparently of at least child pornography claims that he is that mad killer. You've seen him a little bit. What are your impressions of this man? Do you think -- do you think he did it?

PAUGH: You know I haven't seen anything at this point to tell me that he did or tell me that he didn't. I think he believes that he did. I think he for whatever reason has evidently some internal knowledge with respect to some "elements" of the crime. These are things that I'm not privy to. I don't know what kinds of things he's told.

I hesitate to think, though, that a district attorney's office that knows that they would be under such scrutiny to not make further mistakes in this case would take such an overt action without at least some indicators being present that they thought they had their guy. But that said, I am reserving judgment until I see the case and the facts go through a court of law, which is the proper thing that we all should do.

ROWLANDS: Have you talked to John Ramsey? What has he told you? And how is he doing? PAUGH: I have only talked to John the one time and he's a very busy man and right now he's probably in somewhat seclusion, at least that's what I'm told. But the only time I talked to him was when he called to say that we would be hearing of an arrest coming out of Thailand.

He was quite encouraged by that. And, you know, I congratulated him and I said, you know, "Thank God. Our prayers are going to be answered. We hope this is the news we've been looking for." And we said we'd speak soon and that was that.

ROWLANDS: OK, Pam Paugh is going to stay with us. We'll talk to you later on.

Coming up, we're going to talk to a neighbor of the suspect.

Plus, we are also -- right now we want to read a little bit of a statement from JonBenet's father John Ramsey released after the arrest.

He said, "I feel it is extremely important to not only let the justice system operate to its conclusion in an orderly manner, but also to avoid feeding the type of media speculation that my wife and I were subjected to for so many years.

I do want to say, however, that the investigation of the individual arrested today in connection with JonBenet's death was discussed with Patsy and me by the Boulder district attorney's office prior to Patsy's death in June. So, Patsy was aware that authorities were close to making an arrest in the case."

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be right back.


PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET: We have to know and believe in our faith that we will see JonBenet again. She is in heaven with our Heavenly Father and one of these days John and me, we will be there. We will be there with her and we live for that day. That's what keeps us going.




MARY LACY, BOULDER CO. DISTRICT ATTORNEY: There's a great deal of speculation and a desire for quick answers here. We should all heed the poignant advice of John Ramsey yesterday. He said, "Do not jump to conclusions. Do not jump to judgment. Do not speculate. Let the justice system take its course."


ROWLANDS: That is the district attorney of Boulder County in Colorado today at a news conference cautioning people not to rush to judgment, even though their agency made an arrest in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, arresting John Mark Karr, a 41-year-old schoolteacher.

Joining us now from Petaluma, California is a former neighbor of Karr's, Sylvia Ross. Sylvia, thanks for joining us. What were your impressions of this man while you lived across the street from him?

SYLVIA ROSS, FORMER NEIGHBOR OF JOHN KARR: Well, he was a well groomed, nice person that seemed very verbal and very chatty. I was interested to hear...

ROWLANDS: No, nothing out of the ordinary?

ROSS: Well, I -- when he would talk about his substituting I was a little concerned because I have a lot of experience having substituted for 17 years of my life. He didn't seem to have a handle on it, didn't seem clear on what his role was as a substitute teacher.

ROWLANDS: Like he didn't know what he was doing or?

ROSS: Like he was, yes, not prepared for that -- for substituting.

ROWLANDS: When you found out that he had been arrested in this case what were your thoughts?

ROSS: At first I was very surprised because someone could be in the community and have a veil over themselves and be accused of such an awful thing causing -- going to cause so much trouble for those poor children of his and having allegedly killed a young girl. It's shocking. Of course it's shocking to anybody. But, I hope they just...

ROWLANDS: What kind of a father was he? When you lived across the street from him he was married at the time with three children. What kind of a father was he? Did you see any interaction with his kids and within his family?

ROSS: Well, not a lot. It was something I thought about often. He didn't play with his children. I never saw him playing catch or ball or, you know, the kids played out. They were darling, darling little children.

ROWLANDS: Now, his wife, his ex-wife, his ex-wife Laura (ph), which you also know, claims that in 1996 when this murder took place he was home with his family on Christmas and the day after Christmas and he wasn't even anywhere -- he wasn't anywhere close to the state of Colorado. Do you think there's any chance that she could be lying for him in any way? Or what was their relationship after the split up, do you know?

ROSS: Well, I must say I didn't know the whole thing well enough and I was not in Petaluma in 1996. But, from the way she spoke to me when -- and I don't mean to imply that we had a tight relationship. We did not. He had come to my house two times to work on my computer and that was pretty much the extent of our communication, except for seeing him outside once in a while but...

ROWLANDS: He came to your house? He came to your house to fix your computer?

ROSS: Yes, I had a computer problem, yes.

ROWLANDS: So, he was a nice neighbor? I mean he was a guy that, you know, you didn't mind bringing into your house. You didn't have any problem with him in that way. You didn't feel nervous around him or anything like that.

ROSS: That's right.

ROWLANDS: Interesting. Well your thoughts tonight then, an arrest is made, your old neighbor accused of a heinous crime, do you think knowing what you know about him and knowing what you know about this case that he was capable of -- is capable of doing it? And, do you think he's guilty?

ROSS: I hate to say this but I -- I think -- to me personally he had some quirky attitudes that, yes, I think it could be possible and I just -- I am sick for the children and the wife and the Benets (ph).

ROWLANDS: All right, Sylvia Ross, a former neighbor of John Mark Karr in Petaluma, California, thanks for joining us Sylvia.

There are a lot of holes in this case, if you will, a lot of unanswered questions despite the arrest. Coming up, we'll talk to a couple of the investigators involved in this case.

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.


KARR: I love JonBenet and she died accidentally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you an innocent man?






PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET: The police that were there the morning of the 26th, taking evidence, have a lot of tangible evidence. They did a good job at collecting evidence. We have fibers, we have DNA, we have a lot of evidence. The problem was that then they did not take the evidence to where it would lead.

KING: Why did they think it was you?

JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET: Because the police always go after the parents and we understood that after ...

KING: In the death of a child?

J. RAMSEY: Absolutely, 100 percent of the time.

KING: With a ransom note, you go, really?

J. RAMSEY: Absolutely.

P. RAMSEY: Well, I think in every case parents are always suspected initially. And at first we were aghast at that but then we understood that we needed to be investigated but they stopped there.


ROWLANDS: Patsy and John Ramsey talking to Larry King in the year 2000. Patsy Ramsey did not live to see an arrest in the murder of her daughter but she was made aware that there were significant developments before she died in June of this year.

Ollie Gray and John St. Augustin are familiar with this case. They were hired by the Ramseys as private investigator, and are very familiar with the case and the evidence in the case. Specifically, they are familiar with these e-mails which first came under the investigator's radar in March of this year. Ollie Gray, what are your thoughts about this arrest and from what you know, are you confident that they have the right guy here?

OLLIE GRAY, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: I can't say that I'm confident that they have the right guy because, as far as I'm concerned, you're jumping to a conclusion at that time or you're speculating. And I really think that the guy need to be investigated, and he was investigated, and ultimately, there was an arrest made. Now they will have to go to phase two and tie the evidence to him.

ROWLANDS: But phase one is a pretty high bar. If they are going to arrest somebody, they have to have something to go on, do they not? Or do you think that they arrested him so that they could bring him in, get more, and sort of vet him out, considering he was in Bangkok?

GRAY: Well, considering the fact that he had outstanding charges elsewhere in the U.S., if all they were looking for was getting some kind of evidence on him, like DNA or something of that nature, they should not have had any problem at all getting that, without arresting him, alerting him to the Ramsey case. I think there is more behind it than is being told.

ROWLANDS: What can you tell us about these e-mails and this individual?

GRAY: I don't know anything about the individual other than the fact that I have read some of the e-mails that transpired over a several year period of time. I do know that in my opinion, from what I know about the case, there was some significant things in those e- mails, and I'm sure the district attorney's office is well aware of that and they have done a fine job so far. My own professional thoughts are let them go ahead and let's see where the rest of it goes.

ROWLANDS: When you say significant, you're referring to things that nobody else would have known or just the e-mails that are significant because of what they were saying, in terms of proclaiming that he may have had something to do with it?

GRAY: I think there is a combination there of both of those subjects. I think that what was said, how it was said, the other inferences that went with it, were all things that I'm sure the district attorney staff is looking at.

ROWLANDS: You were aware of this before, at least these e-mails, before the district attorney's office. Did you try to go to them before May of this year or were you received when you did actually go to them?

GRAY: I would rather not comment on that at this time.

ROWLANDS: Understood. John, what are your thoughts on the arrest yesterday and then the statements from this individual today?

JOHN ST. AUGUSTIN, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: My thoughts on the arrest, obviously, you know, Ollie and I have been working on behalf of the family for the last, you know, seven years, and our feeling is that this is a step in the right direction. We've always thought that the Ramseys were not involved in the murder of their daughter and the fact that there has been an active investigation into a possible intruder, this is definitely a good step in the right direction.

ROWLANDS: Do you think and are you confident that Boulder authorities did switch gears and were legitimately looking at every lead or do you think there was still a segment of the investigation that was focused on the Ramseys and really didn't want to hear anything else?

AUGUSTIN: No, I think, you know, the district attorney Mary Lacy has done a great job of maintaining her objectivity and really looking into what happened. Letting the evidence lead her to the killer. So, you know, based on the recent events it's obvious that they had enough probable cause to get an arrest warrant to arrest this individual.

ROWLANDS: Ollie, you've been at this for seven years, looking at every lead, trying to clear the Ramseys, trying to figure out this mystery. What was it like for you when you heard that an arrest warrant had been issued and this individual was taken into custody in Bangkok?

GRAY: I was thrilled at the time. I felt that maybe it was all worth it. All the aggravation, that somebody was finally hearing something and looking at the intruder theory.

ROWLANDS: All right. Ollie Gray and John St. Augustin. We're going to take a break right now. They're going to stay with us. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Much more ahead. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KING: What were you feelings like John when this all happens to you and about you?

J. RAMSEY: Well, it is insignificant compared to the hurt we suffered from the loss of our daughter. So it's not --

KING: It pales?

J. RAMSEY: It pales by comparison. But it's hurtful. It's not right. But you realize life is not fair. And the best way we could deal with it was just to shut it out and not pay attention to it.

P. RAMSEY: We have wonderful friends, we have a devout faith. And our family, and our close-knit circle of friends.




KARR: Her death was an accident.


KARR: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE Can you explain your connections to the Ramsey family?

KARR: I have no comment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you get into the basement?

KARR: No comment on that.


ROWLANDS: That's John Karr, 41-year-old school teacher, who claims he was here in this house in Boulder, Colorado, the night that JonBenet Ramsey was killed.

Joining us again from Colorado Springs, Ollie Gray, a private investigator who was hired by the familiar Ramsey family, he's been working the case for seven years. Also still with us, John St. Augustin. He is also in Colorado Springs.

Joining us now from New Haven, Connecticut is Dr. Henry Lee, one of the world's foremost forensic scientists. He was called on in the JonBenet Ramsey case, and he's the founder and professor of the Forensics Science Program at the University of New Haven.

Also joining us from Pittsburgh, Dr. Cyril Wecht, forensic pathology and attorney and author of the book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?"

Let's start with you, Dr. Wecht. What are your thoughts about this arrest? Do you think they have the right guy?

CYRIL WECHT, ATTORNEY: No. I was skeptical from the time I heard it yesterday, and as more information has come out in terms of Mr. Karr's statements, I have become increasingly skeptical and quite cynical.

He stated he planned a kidnapping, but he did not write a note in advance nor did he even take pen and paper. He figured he would be able to find it with great ease in the middle of the night, total darkness in a strange home.

He says he drugged her, there is absolutely no evidence of any chemical compound or toxic substance whatsoever in JonBenet's body.

He says that he raped her, had sexual intercourse, there definitely was not penile penetration and no semen, no other component of ejaculate, no pubic hairs. The injuries in the region of the external genitalia and the vaginal vault and so on are minimal. For me, they say a lot, but they definitely are not consistent with penetration by an adult man's penis.

So the man has actually put the lie. He has torpedoed his own confession.

And then you get into all of these other things, of course, from the very beginning, was he in Boulder? How did he get into the house? How did he enter and leave without leaving any evidence of his presence -- no physical, no biological evidence? And no kind of trace evidence.

My dear friend and colleague, Henry, will comment on that, I'm sure. And then you have him conveniently finding the pen and paper, writing a note, leaving the three-page note asking for the very fascinating sum of $118,000. That's a nice, round number. And then leaving the house without the body.

And something that has not been commented upon in the discussions that I have heard throughout the entire day is this, Henry will correct me if I'm wrong, the instrument which was used to bash in her skull and produce an 8 1/2-inch fracture has never been found, was not identified as far as I am aware. Which means that the perpetrator, whoever it was, had to have discarded it.

So if it was Mr. Karr, that means that he had the presence of mind to take that, for whatever reason, and make sure that he took that with him but he left the 45-pound package, JonBenet Ramsey's body, after having gone to all the trouble of writing that note.

We'll see what the DNA evidence points out, what the question (ph) document examiners come up with, when they get writing exemplars from him. I would like to see polygraph testing conducted by authorities, not admissible in court, but a good technique for interrogation. And I would like to see forensic psychiatrists interviewing him. That is necessary to learn the psychodynamics of Mr. Karr.

What do I believe? I believe this is really, total nonsense. It is a sad tale. It is more pain for the Ramsey family.

ROWLANDS: Well, clearly, we know where Dr. Wecht stands on. Dr. Lee, your thoughts quickly here. Do you think they have the right guy or is there any chance they have the right guy?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I keep my mind open, just like Dr. Wecht, we're going to have to let the evidence speak for itself.

Right now, this case from the beginning, have all this (INAUDIBLE) the intruder theory, we do have so-called international terrorist groups, sex predator of family, all of those competing hypotheses, just not enough solid evidence to point one way or another.

DNA in this case is going to be crucial. Unfortunately, DNA, just trace amount of DNA, which never pointed out. If I remember correctly, it was a partial profile.

The partial profile can be a difficult thing. We can rule somebody in, cannot say positively this is the individual.

Dr. Wecht already pointed out handwriting analyst, precise handwriting analysis, we should look at psycho analysis, (INAUDIBLE) term they use. It's an interesting note. That has to be compared.

Also, a lot of case fact -- partial reconstruction, which is conducted when Alexander (ph), the district attorney and police chief Askame (ph), we did the review everything. For example, the ropes and ligature and tape, all of those can be verified.

ROWLANDS: OK. We're going to get the responses from both of those sermons, if you will, in just a minute. But before we go to break we're going to check in with Tom Foreman who is filling in for Anderson Cooper tonight on "AC 360." Tom is also in Boulder, Colorado.

What do you have coming up, Tom?


We got a terrific look at all of these huge developments today in the JonBenet Ramsey case. And there have been many of them, including the brother of the man accused speaking out about his brother and saying some fascinating things. You don't want to miss it.

And if you think the London terror investigation might be cooling down, it is heating up. A Muslim cleric there is now saying attacks on the United States are justified and President Bush is a fair target. Stick around. We'll have it at the top of the hour on 360 -- Ted.

ROWLANDS: OK. Thanks, Tom.

AC 360 at the top of the hour. When we come back, we'll continue our discussion about the facts in this case. Is this individual telling the truth or not? We'll talk about that. And on the line with us, we're going to talk to the attorney of John Karr's ex-wife.

All of that and more when LARRY KING LIVE continues. Stay with us.


ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands, filling in tonight for Larry. We're going to continue our discussion about the arrest in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case.

First we want to go out to the attorney for Lara Knutsen. This woman was married to the suspect John Karr, and claims that John Karr was home the night of the murder. Let's bring in the attorney for this woman, Laura Knutsen. Mr. Rains, thanks a lot for joining us, appreciate it. What is your client saying about the night of the murder?

MICHAEL RAINS, ATTORNEY FOR LARA KNUTSEN: Well, Ted, understand, I met with Lara for quite a while today. My understanding is yesterday, last night, when members of the media knocked on her door at her home and alerted her to this arrest, she told them that her best recollection was that in December of 1996, and specifically Christmas day in particular, she believed that John Karr was there with her and her children, that they had Christmas together. She simply could not recall any Christmas while they were married when he was away from the home.

ROWLANDS: So does she think he made this whole thing up and why?

RAINS: Well, she doesn't know what's going on with him. She's had no contact with him since they divorced in 2001, following his arrest out here in California. She's had no contact with him, wants no contact with him and frankly, has little good to say about the man. On the other hand, at least her best recollection was then and is today, that she thought during their marriage, that he was around them each Christmas. I have her looking at documents, looking at items that she gathered during the course of their marriage, to see if her memory is jogged in any other way. Obviously, we want her to cooperate fully with the authorities and be in a position to make a statement based on everything that she can learn.

ROWLANDS: Ollie Gray, you've been investigating for seven years here. You heard Dr. Wecht basically rip apart the theory that this guy could have anything to do with this, and the ex-wife says he was home that night. What is it, obviously you can't tell us what it is specifically, but can you characterize the evidence that they have against this individual which led them to arrest him?

GRAY: Let's start with the mere fact that some type of probable cause information was submitted to a judge and a judge made an intellectual decision about this information and chose to sign a warrant of arrest on this individual. That didn't happen just by a deck of cards falling.

ROWLANDS: Clearly, the district attorney's office here in Boulder has worked tirelessly on this case and clearly they would not have acted unless they have sufficient or at least decent evidence in this case. Clearly, again, it is not over and the D.A. mentioned that today and really harped on it, that this man is innocent until proven guilty, but what you're telling us is that there is more to it. There is more than what is being discussed here, and basically, that they do have some solid evidence against this man?

GRAY: Well, I think that we're making a big mistake if we jump out there and start chastising everything and everybody. I think you need to leave the police work to the district attorney's office and let them go ahead with their investigation in this matter and see how it proves out. The rest of his family didn't even know where he was, thought he was dead and all of these kinds of things. So, you know, whatever the ex-wife says, you know, if it can be proven, let's prove it. You have as much obligation to prove the innocence of an individual as you do to prove their guilt.

ROWLANDS: Understood. Ollie Gray, thanks. John St. Augustin, thank you. Dr. Henry Lee, Dr. Cyril Wecht thanks and Michael Rains on the phone, thank you all.

We're going to take a break now and when we come back, we're going to talk one more time to Patsy Ramsey's sister and get her final thoughts here. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.


ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. We want to finish the hour with more discussion with Pam Paugh, Patsy Ramsey's sister. We should not that the suspect in this case, John Mark Karr, is still in Thailand and authorities here in Colorado are trying to bring him back as soon as possible. They don't have a clear indication of when that may be. It may take several days.

Pam, you've heard a lot tonight and over the last couple of days, boy, if this individual did not have anything to do with it, how difficult would that be for John and the rest of the family?

PAUGH: Well, I don't think it would be as bad a disappointment as it was when we originally lost JonBenet. We would get through that. I would be terribly hurt to know that someone had been falsely accused and we don't want to see that. But more importantly Ted, what I see going on in the media right now is something that I think John has spoken out about, I've tried to spread the word, we've got to heed the warning, we cannot continue going on and on speculating and speculating.

Dr. Wecht is a very intelligent man, but god forbid these professionals and pundits come on here and start railroading this poor gentleman down the alleyway by saying this evidence is in, this evidence is out. We do not know, and that is a fact. What we do know is that there is a district attorney who is in charge of finding out. Now, the rest of us, though it's nice to sit here and say, how do you feel? How does the family take it? What do we hope for? What we hope for is justice for JonBenet. What we should do is be patient as a country and wait and see what happens in this case. Then and only then will we have clear justice. ROWLANDS: Well said. All right well said, Pam Paugh, the sister of Patsy Ramsey, commenting today on the arrest in the JonBenet murder investigation. Just like the district attorney told everybody today, let justice take its course. That's the message here in Boulder from the authorities. We shall see how it turns out. Thanks for joining us on LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry. We will have more on this tomorrow night. Right now we want to go out to Tom Foreman, who is filling in for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360," Tom.