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CNN Larry King Live

Vanity Fair's Photos of Suri Cruise; Warren Jeffs Makes First Utah Court Appearance

Aired September 06, 2006 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, for the first time on TV, all the pictures of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes and their baby girl Suri. You've seen the cover. We've got the whole 22-page spread from Vanity Fair.

Plus, the Vanity Fair editor who spent five days living, eating, hiking, and hanging out with the Cruises. What was that like? What were they like?

And then, fugitive polygamist Warren Jeffs makes his first Utah court appearance on rape-related charges. And we'll have exclusive reaction from his sister Elaine Jeffs in her first interview since her brother was moved to a Utah jail.

Plus, women who fled what they call abusive arranged marriages in his tightly-guarded community.

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.


KING: Good evening.

A picture is usually worth 1,000 words but when it's pictures of Tom Cruise's baby girl it's worth a lot more words than that. We'll show you the shots but first, a little history lesson.


KING (voice-over): Any star as super as Tom Cruise will have extra attention paid to their love life. But no celebrity romance in recent memory has sparked a nonstop media frenzy like Cruise and Katie Holmes, from Oprah's couch to their engagement in Paris, to Katie's pregnancy and the birth of their first child one year to the day after their first date.

But then the waiting and waiting for the first baby photos. Four and a half months of tabloid headlines, gossipy guessing games, and wild rumors. Finally, TomKat chose Vanity Fair and renowned photographer Annie Leibovitz to unveil Baby Suri.

Tom says she looks like Katie. Katie says she looks like Tom. Now you can judge for yourself.


KING: We begin and have as our special guest Jane Sarkin, the features editor of Vanity Fair. She's in New York, spent almost a week with Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes and the family in Telluride, Colorado. How did you get this?

JANE SARKIN, VANITY FAIR FEATURES EDITOR: It's incredible isn't it? I had been in touch with his people for quite a while and finally they called me and said "Tom and Katie decided to do the pictures of Suri for Vanity Fair" and Annie Leibovitz and I showed up in Telluride a couple days later and we spent five days there and we had unprecedented access to their home.

We were able to go in every room. No door was closed to us. It was unbelievable that Tom Cruise let us into his private life like that. It was absolutely something that we were so excited to be a part of.

KING: Did you expect to spend five days?

SARKIN: No actually. We expected to spend about two days and then, you know, the shoot just kept getting more and more interesting and Tom was having a great time and Katie was having a great time. So, we ended up staying for about five days.

KING: The cover it looks like an emotional shot for Tom and Katie, any particular reason the way it was shot that way and why you picked that for the cover?

SARKIN: Yes. That's a fabulous story. We went up to a favorite spot of the Cruise family, which is called The Lookout. In the background are the Rocky Mountains. The sun was setting. The baby was looking straight at the camera. Tom and Katie were looking down at the baby and Annie shot that picture. And, at that moment, everyone became a little bit emotional because we knew we had it. That was definitely going to be the cover. There was no question about it.

KING: The mother I understand got emotional, huh?

SARKIN: Yes. Tom's mother was looking at her granddaughter and her future daughter-in-law to be and she started to cry. And then all of us sort of started to get really emotional. And, Tom was fighting back the tears. We talked about that moment later and he said he just -- it was all so much and the beauty of the place. It was incredible.

KING: Wrapping the baby in the leather jacket was it -- was it cold weather?

SARKIN: You know it's chilly up there especially when the sun starts to set and he just felt like doing that and it was a great moment.

KING: Tom said this to you about fatherhood. We'll put it up on screen. "My whole life I always wanted to be a father. I always said to myself that my children would be able to depend on me and I would always be there for them and love them that I'd never make a promise to my kids I couldn't keep. I'm not one of those people who believe you can spoil a child with too much love. You can never give a child too much love. There's just no way." Was that evident in the way he was?

SARKIN: Absolutely. I was so happy to see this family all so happy together, hanging out together, so comfortable with each other. They just are happy. They're smiling all the time. They love to tell stories. They had horseback riding, hiking, fishing, you name it. His children, Connor (ph) and Bella are just the greatest kids and they all interact so beautifully. They're a very warm and open family.

KING: Did you ask why they waited so long and let all those rumors get printed?

SARKIN: Absolutely I did. You know when the baby was born "Mission Impossible 3" was just coming out and Tom was doing this huge worldwide press tour and he just was exhausted. He couldn't wait to get home to his newborn baby, to Katie, to his children.

They went to Telluride. They just sort of wanted to hang out and be a family. They were in L.A. as well and they were with family and friends. And then this frenzy started this feeding frenzy in the press and the rumors started.

And I think they just were like "What is going on? We just want to be home raising this baby. We don't want the intrusion of a photo session right now." They were always planning to release the photos. And then when all this frenzy started they just pulled back.

And, luckily, I was the one that called at the right time and they loved the idea of Vanity Fair and Annie Leibovitz being there together and it was a perfect fit for them.

KING: And, by the way, throughout the rest of the half hour we'll be showing all the rest of the pictures from this incredible issue.

Tom and Katie took their time before giving the shots to Vanity Fair and you quote Katie as saying, we'll put that up too, "We're just living our lives being a family. Actually we're taking our own photos and always planned to release those at the right time. Then all the craziness began. This 'Where is Suri?' controversy. Tom and I looked at each other and said 'What's going on?' We're not going to hide anything." The other side says do you think Katie -- Jane, of course, that they were too public now with this?

SARKIN: I'm sorry?

KING: Do you think they may have been too public the display of a child, this much of a display?

SARKIN: Oh, no.

KING: No? SARKIN: I think that first and foremost they wanted this picture -- this story to be about the baby. I really think that they wanted to look back on this as a great event. There was so much commotion about the baby and this is -- this is the perfect way for them to have showed the first worldwide exclusive pictures of their new baby.

KING: What was it like for you the first time you saw Suri?

SARKIN: Well, I drove up and I saw this beautiful woman holding this adorable baby and then Tom standing next to -- and it was -- it was Katie and I see Tom standing next to her and Connor and Bella and they're all waving at me and they're so excited that I was there.

And the baby looked exactly to me like Tom. The hair was exactly Tom's head of hair. And, you know, of course the baby's hair has never been cut but they look like they had the same exact haircut and we laughed about it and the baby was smiling at me. And I just couldn't wait to hold the baby, which I did.

KING: Tom appeared to be, knowing him pretty well, totally natural through all this.

SARKIN: Yes, he absolutely was. He was -- he's really excited about the baby. He's excited about his upcoming marriage. We spoke about their wedding, which is absolutely in the works. They didn't give me many details but they are busy, busy planning a wedding.

He loves the interaction of Connor and Bella with Suri. They're all very helpful around the house. They're always trying to get the baby the first bottle in the morning, get the baby out of the crib. They're sort of banging into each other to try to be the first ones to pick up the baby. It's a great -- it was great to see all this.

KING: We'll take a break. And, when we come back we'll show you the rest of the pictures in the current issue of Vanity Fair now on sale.

Andre Agassi tomorrow night. Don't go away.


KING: We're back. With us is Jane Sarkin, the features editors of Vanity Fair. Before we start showing a lot more pictures, how did you keep this a secret?

SARKIN: It was not easy to keep this a secret but Annie and I tried to fly up there at night. We kept it very quiet. We never confirmed that we were doing this. Of course, rumors were flying around but we really, really tried to keep this one under wraps as long as possible. It wasn't easy.

KING: Where did she do all the -- where did she do all the darkroom work?

SARKIN: Everything was done in New York in our offices but really we had to keep it very quiet. We really, really didn't tell anyone what we were doing.

KING: Now let's look at another picture. This is the Cruise/Holmes family in the bathroom. How did you and Annie end up in there?

SARKIN: I know. It is incredible. You know, Tom's -- Tom and Katie came downstairs. Annie and I were sitting in the kitchen and they said -- he said, "Come on up. Come on up. We're giving Suri a bath."

So, up we went through the bedroom, into the bathroom and she had just come out of the bathtub and they laid her down on the floor and it was a little chilly so they blew dry her hair a little bit. And, as they were doing that she started to giggle and that's how those shots came about and it just was a great moment. I mean you think about this big movie star, you know, and you're in his bathroom with his baby. It's just unbelievable, you know, and it just was a great moment.

KING: Did Katie talk to you about reports that her family doesn't like Tom?

SARKIN: Actually, Katie did take me aside and said she wanted to talk to me privately. And she said that the reports of all of this stuff about her family not liking Tom were absolutely out of control wrong. She was very hurt by them. She couldn't understand where it was all coming from.

They're a very -- the Holmes are a very, very close family. Katie is very close to her family and they've become very close to Tom. I witnessed it. I was there. I saw it all. We had dinner together every night. They were all in the house at the same time I was.

KING: All right, now we'll look at Tom, Katie, and Suri on the mountain.

SARKIN: That actually -- oh, yes that picture is -- those are mountains that Tom has climbed with his family. Katie, Connor, and Bella and Tom have climbed those mountains. He loves to be up there. He's always wanted a home in the mountains and this is one of their favorite spots. In fact, they do a lot of cookouts up there right at sunset. It's absolutely stunning.

KING: Do the families get along well?

SARKIN: The families get along great. As I said, we had a lot of meals together. Everybody is passing the baby around. Everybody wants to play with all the kids. There were kids running all over the house. It's a very, very warm atmosphere and everyone is really happy. And, actually they're very excited about their relationship and the upcoming wedding I think.

KING: When is that wedding?

SARKIN: I wish I knew, Larry, but it's coming. It's coming. KING: You'll probably get to shoot the wedding too.

SARKIN: I know wouldn't that be great?

KING: Next we'll see Tom with Suri asleep on his chest. This is a great shot.

SARKIN: This is a great shot. This was in his big living room in Telluride. He loves that room and we were shooting and shooting. The baby was starting to get a little tired and Tom was starting to get a little bit tired, so he just laid down and put the baby just like that.

I think that's one of their favorite ways they like to hold the baby and before you knew it they were both asleep and we just kept shooting. No one told us to leave. We were able to do whatever we wanted. It was amazing.

KING: Now we'll see Tom, Katie, and Suri relaxing in the backyard.

SARKIN: That is a beautiful shot. You can see how happy they all are and the baby...

KING: Was this is -- by the way, was this in Los Angeles?

SARKIN: This was in their backyard in Beverly Hills and it was a beautiful day. They were all very relaxed and the baby, as you can see lifting her head. She's gorgeous.

KING: Was it a coincidence that the family was there, the whole family, or was that planned?

SARKIN: Absolutely no. It was a coincidence because we kept changing the dates that we were going to go because, as you know, Annie's schedule is so crazy and so we kept changing and changing. And they kept saying, "Well, you know, there's something going on and there's some family around."

And I said, "Well this is when we have to come." And so they said, "Well we can't change anything" and there they were. We got there and the family came the next day and we just couldn't move our dates. And Tom's mother was there and Tom's sister and sister's children and everybody gets along great.

KING: Is that baby as happy as she appears?

SARKIN: That baby is smiling and cooing and giggling. It's a really happy baby, yes, it is.

KING: We have a photo of Suri laughing. This shot is I guess a kind of one of a kind. Was she laughing out loud? How hard was it to get this?

SARKIN: Tom does this really cute thing where he sort of nuzzles right under her neck and gets her to giggle like that as, you know, a lot of fathers do and it is a laugh out loud giggle, so adorable, great shot.

KING: Would you gather that the wedding is imminent?

SARKIN: It's hard for me to know that. I really can't answer that. I have a feeling it's coming up very soon and I hope -- I hope they're going to let me know soon.

KING: Just ahead the other Cruise kids and how they're adjusting to life with baby sister. That's coming up on LARRY KING LIVE.


KING: We're back with Jane Sarkin. She's in New York, the features editor of Vanity Fair, this extraordinary issue is now on the stands.

Before we look at the next picture you spent some time with Tom's two children from his marriage to Nicole, 13-year-old Bella and 11- year-old Connor. How are they doing? What were they like?

SARKIN: They're lovely children. They're incredible. They're so much fun to be with. I hung out with them a lot in the bedroom. They talk about all the stuff they do with Tom. They're just really nice children and they love the baby and they love Katie and they're having a great time together.

They're just great and you can see by these photographs, I mean they just -- they just want to be around the baby, love to feed her and change her and hold her. They're great together.

KING: You also include an older picture, do you not, of Tom with Bella and Connor when they were much younger?

SARKIN: Yes. It's an interesting story. Annie Leibovitz is the only photographer Tom's ever let photograph his children, although he's never let them be published. So, when he agreed to have Suri appear in Vanity Fair by Annie Leibovitz he agreed to -- he said, "I'd like -- I'd like to show you this picture. Annie, remember when you took this picture?"

And, Annie said "This is great" and they're framed all over the house in Telluride. And he said, "Would you like to run it?" And we were like, "Of course we want to run it." So, the whole thing came full circle, you know, with the children and Tom and Annie and it's been a -- it was a great experience for everybody.

KING: A quote from your article from Katie, "The moment the doctor handed me Suri, I was just ready. The feeling is indescribable. All I can say is the moment I looked in her eyes I felt like Mom."


KING: What kind of mom is she?

SARKIN: Katie is an incredible mother just the way she holds that baby and looks at -- that baby looks at her. They have such a connection. She's very hands on. They have very little help, you know. Actually, they're very -- they're a very normal family. I mean what you read in the tabloids and then when you see them it's just there's no connection.

It's just this great, happy family. I can't -- I can't stress enough how normal the whole thing seemed and I know I was with the biggest movie star in the world. But I keep coming back to the fact that, you know, when they're holding their baby they're like every parent in the world, you know, doting parents.

But, Katie is incredible, very hands on, does everything herself. She runs the household. She plans the meals. She's really great and she was very forthcoming about how she felt about the press.

KING: I believe we have one of Suri grabbing her mother's hair?

SARKIN: Yes, it's a beautiful photo. She's just a very playful baby, very playful baby and they just adore her and you can see it.

KING: She told you the story of the jewelry she wears.


KING: Cue me in.

SARKIN: Well, she -- I told her that no matter what she wears from now on, her wedding dress, whatever happens, it's going to be the fashion craze and everyone is going to copy her. These beautiful earrings were a gift from Tom when Suri was born.

Then she wears a beautiful trinity three ring, diamond ring that she got for mother's day. And then, of course, she has this beautiful diamond engagement ring that Tom gave her when he proposed atop the Eiffel Tower and just beautiful. She wears everything all the time.

KING: Did they talk to you at all about the rumors that beset them?

SARKIN: Absolutely they did. They just couldn't understand where they all were coming from and the frenzy and the amount of rumors. I mean you couldn't get -- they couldn't get away from it and they just don't understand where they all come from and where the build up comes from and it really, really hurts them.

Katie said to me that she understands that Tom's used to it a little bit more than she is but it really hurts her and she wants to protect her family and she doesn't like when, you know, people say things about the people that she loves.

KING: Is she a scientologist?

SARKIN: I really don't know that, Larry.

KING: Did you discuss that at all?

SARKIN: I did not discuss that at all, no.

KING: Was that a condition of the article or not?

SARKIN: Oh, no. There were no conditions at all, no, no, no.

KING: What about Kate's movie career?

SARKIN: She talked to me also that that's something she loves. She loves being an actress and she wants to stay home for the time being and take care of the newborn but she's absolutely ready to go back to work. She's been reading scripts and she's waiting for the right thing to come along. I think she will go back to work.

KING: Does he encourage that?

SARKIN: He does. They both love their work. He does encourage it. He's encouraging her to read the scripts, pick what she wants and eventually we'll hear about something that she's going to do.

KING: Does she want another baby?

SARKIN: She actually told me that she would love to have two or three or four babies, so we'll see. I think she will.

KING: What's that place like in Colorado?

SARKIN: That place is a magical retreat for them. It's beautiful. It's way up in the mountains. Tom told me he always had wanted a home in the mountains. He bought the property in Telluride in 1990 and he built this house and he -- his dream was to fill it with family and friends and that's exactly what he's done and it's just got this warm, cozy feeling to it, just a family friendly place.

KING: True mattresses on the floor?

SARKIN: Yes, well they -- what they do there is there are so many guests and there's so much family around that wherever -- Bella and Connor have their bedrooms and then when there's not enough room, they just put their mattresses somewhere else and sometimes they go upstairs and sometimes they stay downstairs and it's just -- it depends who is -- but it's very loose, very loose when there's a lot of guests around.

KING: Jane Sarkin, you pulled off a coup.

SARKIN: Yes and it's selling like crazy. It's just crazy. It's just been a great...

KING: This might be your biggest seller?

SARKIN: I think it's going to be our biggest seller because it's flying off the newsstands right now and, you know, 22 pages of these beautiful photos that everyone in the world wants to see. It's been an amazing adventure.

KING: Thanks, Jane. SARKIN: Thank you.

KING: Thanks for cueing us in on it, Jane Sarkin, the features editor of Vanity Fair.

Still to come on LARRY KING LIVE, a member of Warren Jeffs' own family goes very public with her opinion of his polygamist ways. Stick around.


KING: We're back. Just a quick reminder about a great show coming up tomorrow night. Tennis superstar Andre Agassi, his first major interview since he kissed the game good-bye last Sunday. You will not want to miss this.

Joining us now in St. George, Utah is Mike Watkiss. Mike Watkiss, investigative reporter for KTVK in Phoenix. He's covered Warren Jeffs for years. He produced the award-winning documentary "Colorado City and the Underground Railroad."

And in Tyler, Texas is Elaine Jeffs. She's the older sister of Warren Jeffs, the polygamist now imprisoned in Utah on rape-related charges. She was in a polygamous marriage herself for 21 years but left the FLDS church in 1984. She speaks out against it in a new documentary called "Banking on Heaven." And we'll see occasional clips of that documentary as we talk along. Mike, what happened today?

MIKE WATKISS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, KTVK: Well, the games began, Larry. Warren Jeffs was brought into the courtroom here in St. George, Utah for his initial appearance. It was very brief, similar to the one in Las Vegas last week. The judge asked him a few questions, read the charges, rape as an accomplice, let him know what the charges were and what the penalties were. But bottom line, after many years the games have begun, the trial is under way.

KING: Any bail requests?

WATKISS: No bail at this point. They're going to have a bail hearing I think on the 19th. They're going to have a preliminary hearing and a bail hearing simultaneously. He's apparently still looking for a lawyer, has a lawyer in Vegas who's representing him.

But according to Mr. Jeffs during the hearing today that lawyer is merely helping him try to find another lawyer here in the state of Utah. Mr. Jeffs has a bank of big-time law firms that have done work for him in the past. So I'm sure with his resources he'll get the best lawyers money can buy.

KING: Elaine Jeffs, you're his older sister. How do you feel looking at him?

ELAINE JEFFS, WARREN JEFFS' SISTER: It just feels weird to think that that's my brother. But he's where he needs to be now.

KING: What was he like when you were kids?

JEFFS: Well, he was just my little brother. He was only 5- years-old when I left the home at 18 when I got married.

KING: And you got married into a polygamous relationship, right?

JEFFS: Yes, I did.

KING: And Warren grew up in a polygamous relationship.

JEFFS: Yes. We all did, all 65 of us.

KING: Have you kept in touch with him through the years?

JEFFS: No, I have not. My husband kept us -- me and my sister wives very isolated for especially the first years of my marriage. But then I started teaching in Alta Academy, where my father had a home school, and I was doing that for about five years. And then when Warren graduated from high school, he began teaching there too. So I did interact with him just a little bit during the last couple years I taught there.

KING: How do you feel about what's happened to him?

JEFFS: I feel sorry for him. It's too bad that he is where he's at. But he needs to be incarcerated. I hate to feel that people in my family are bad people, but he has done a lot of bad things to a lot of good people, and breaking up families and doing things that his father never would have done, our father never would never have done, the breaking up that he's done.

KING: Mike Watkiss, you were there today. He appears so placid.

WATKISS: You know, one of the most interesting insights I've gotten during the last week since he was arrested, Larry, is I've heard this from several law officers who have interacted with Mr. Jeffs since his apprehension in Vegas last week. And they tell the same story in that very meek, soft-spoken voice of his. He asked their name and then he says to the law officers that he forgives them.

All of them were stunned when he said this. Cynic that I am, having covered this for the many years, my question to Mr. Jeffs is, first of all, why do these law officers need your forgiveness and where was the forgiveness, the compassion, the humanity when you were breaking up the families that his sister is mentioning?

Dozens of men have been kicked out of that community in the last several years, literally having their wives and their children ripped away from them, given to some other one of his sort of perverted followers for their own, you know, special interests and needs to utilize any way they want. They use the wives in the kitchen and then marry the daughters.

Where was the forgiveness and compassion when the young women say they don't want to marry, as the victim here in Utah did to him? She said she didn't want to marry this guy, didn't want to have sex with this guy, but he said go ahead, shut up, do what your husband says and go back because this is what his perverted priesthood demands.

Where was the forgiveness and compassion and humanity when he was kicking the young men out? I think the stage is set for the persona we're going to see in court, the misunderstood man of God who is being attacked by the outside world. Having covered this for so many years, that's nonsense.

KING: Elaine Jeffs, do you expect to see a lot of people when this trial eventually gets underway, protesting on his behalf?

JEFFS: Given their history, I don't think there will be any outward protesting. They're going to go on just living their lives like they always have and doing what is called living by correct principle, as they've been indoctrinated to do.

KING: Thanks, Elaine. We'll be checking on you as we go along with this. Mike Watkiss as well, who's right on top of the scene and Elaine Jeffs. When we come back, four people have certainly been affected by the concept of polygamy. As we go to break, here is a clip from "Banking on Heaven," produced and narrated by Laurie Allen, the documentary we mentioned earlier.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the Mormon church, based in Utah, abandoned polygamy in 1890, some men hid their plural wives across the state line in Arizona. In Colorado City, it takes three wives to get to heaven. But because there's a shortage of women, some men only get one wife and some men get none.



KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, a panel of four, all affected by polygamy. Here in Los Angeles, Sara Hammon, who grew up in the FLDS church before Warren Jeffs took over. Her father was a high-ranking FLDS member. She says he molested her.

In New York is Carolyn Jessop. At age 18, she was forced to marry 50-year-old Meryl Jessop, a follower of Warren Jeffs. At age 35 undercover of darkness, she took her children and fled her abusive marriage and the church.

In Salt Lake City, Utah is Fawn Broadbent, who escaped from the FLDS at age 16. And also in Salt Lake is John Llewellyn, former polygamist who has written books about the lifestyle. The retired deputy sheriff from Salt Lake county sheriff's office has investigated lawsuits against polygamy groups. Sara, what was that like for you to grow up in that community?

SARA HAMMON, LEFT FLDS COMMUNITY: It was a very oppressive community. It was tragic to watch what my mother went through.

KING: She was a victim too?

HAMMON: She was a victim. She was the tenth wife of my father.

KING: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

HAMMON: I have 74 brothers and sisters. There were 30 in my generation approximately. And 11 mothers living in my home.

KING: How old were you when your father molested you?

HAMMON: The first time I was about four or five.

KING: And then subsequent?

HAMMON: And then again when I was 13. I had been told to say good-bye to him, he was dying, and I went to his bedside, and he reached, he tried to reach up my skirt.

KING: At his bedside?


KING: Did you tell your mother?


KING: Why not?

HAMMON: Not until later. It didn't do any good to report it at the time.

KING: Carolyn Jessop, could you have refused to get married at age 18 to someone you didn't want to marry?

CAROLYN JESSOP, FLED FLDS CHURCH: I could have refused, but I probably would have just been encouraged to do it and I don't think that my parents or the people around me would have taken no for an answer. From my experience I hadn't seen where women were able to really refuse and get out of it. They would refuse and then there was a lot of disgrace put on their family and a lot of embarrassment, a lot of humiliation, and usually they would end up doing it anyway.

KING: So you were in a no-win?

JESSOP: I saw it at that point as a no win. I saw no way out. You know, it was tragic. I felt like my whole life was ending. But I didn't see a way to stop what was happening.

KING: Fawn Broadbent, how did you get out at age 16?

FAWN BROADBENT, ESCAPED FROM FLDS CHURCH: You know, it was a spur of the moment thing where I had a friend that had a cell phone and we just called a friend from St. George that came and picked us up on the Utah side of the border, and that was it.

KING: How old are you now?

BROADBENT: I'm 19 years old. KING: Have you been totally free of it?

BROADBENT: I am in ways, yes, but my family still holds me back in some ways. You know, I just hope that now that Warren Jeffs was arrested that maybe my family will see a way out.

KING: John Llewellyn, a former polygamist, a department sheriff, why did you leave polygamy?

JOHN LLEWELLYN, FORMER POLYGAMIST: I left it because of the crime, the corruption, the pretense of infallibility. And it's just not a lifestyle that's conducive for this day and age. There's just too many problems. It's not the bed of roses that people would have you believe, and it's very tough on the women.

KING: What attracted you to it in the first place?

LLEWELLYN: Well, let me put it this way, when you have two or three attractive women that would like to be your wife at the same time, it makes it very easy to accept that revelation that was received by Joseph Smith.

KING: Also, couldn't it be a lot of headaches?

LLEWELLYN: Oh, yes, definitely. It's not an easy lifestyle. You know, these ladies continually need reinforcement, and you have to provide for them, earn a living. We weren't the type that was going to depend upon welfare. We shunned that.

KING: Let me show another clip from "Banking on Heaven," produced and narrated by Laurie Allen, that new documentary, and get your reaction, the whole panel's reaction. Watch.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was a girl, there was violence around me, and not just the verbal kind. I saw a man pick up a shovel once and try to kill another man. I heard a woman tell her lover to shoot her brother with his rifle. I witnessed senseless death. I endured the beatings and humiliation and battled the mind control because these things I could change.


KING: You understand that, Sara?

HAMMON: Yes I do. This film is one of the most accurate depictions --

KING: It is?

HAMMON: That I've seen of what is really happening out there, especially to the women and the children.

KING: Carolyn, what did you think of Jeffs in court today? JESSOP: Oh, I thought it was interesting. You know, he really does come across as that he's being persecuted for his religious beliefs and he's being so humble about it. And it's just the furthest thing from the truth.

KING: Fawn, what did you make of him?

BROADBENT: He is trying to play a role of an innocent man, and I hope that no one falls for it.

KING: John Llewellyn, what did you think of him?

LLEWELLYN: Well, he's naturally humble, and humility is a virtue within the polygamist subculture, but it's a facade. If you'll recall, when Osama bin Laden has been interviewed, he too was quite humble and soft-spoken. But inside there was a ruthless, vicious man, and we have the same thing here.

KING: We'll take a break, and we'll be back with more. But first let's check in with John Roberts. He's sitting in for Anderson Cooper, hosting "AC 360" at the top of the hour. John, what's up?

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, good evening to you, Larry. Tonight on "360," President Bush and those secret CIA prisons. Today for the first time the presidential talked about those prisons and the prisoners in them, 14 of them, some of the worst al Qaeda terrorists. Why did the president pick today to reveal all? Tonight we'll have all the angles with David Gergen, Peter Bergen, and the best political team in television. Coming up in about 15 minutes. Larry?

KING: Thanks, John. As always, noble work. John Roberts, hosting "AC 360" at the top of the hour. Coming up, child labor and the working conditions for people who live in the Warren Jeffs polygamist community. Don't go away.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told me how easy it was to molest people because they wait for opportunities and they watch for moments and they get used to people's habits and they work around it pretty much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then you grow up also going to bed every night and laying awake for hours waiting to hear the footsteps coming down the hall.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If a man is obedient to the prophet, he's allowed to keep the $450 each of his illegal wives pay him monthly in welfare rent. A man with ten wives can quickly save enough money to cash out a new truck whenever he needs it. BUSTER JOHNSON, COUNTY SUPERVISOR: Last count I knew they had over $400 million in the bank. How are you going to fight something like that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you see some of these guys driving Cadillacs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But they don't have any money to give their wives for groceries. It's not uncommon for a man to let his family starve and be eating steak dinners.

KING: That's in the new documentary "Banking on Heaven." The narrator is the producer, Laurie Allen. And our panelists have said very realistic. Sara Hammon, what about child labor? Is that widely used?

HAMMON: Yes, it is. It's a huge problem out there. I live in Mesquite, Nevada now, and I see those children working on construction sites and in lieu of education is the big problem. And they say that they're teaching these children a trade. And they're pulling them out of school to teach them a trade.

KING: Carolyn, why doesn't, this may sound stupid, why doesn't everybody run away?

JESSOP: The boys?

KING: The girls, the boys, the everybody? Why stay in that environment?

JESSOP: Well generally if a girl runs away, she is brought back. Women are not really free to leave this society. It's very rare that a girl gets out, but the boys actually throw them out. They kick them out. And we have a huge problem with this right now. We have hundreds of boys, many of them under the ages of 16, and they are just thrown onto the streets of big cities, and they don't have basic skills to survive in the real world, and they're not in school.

KING: Fawn, does anybody care about them?

BROADBENT: Yes, there's people out here that care about them. I have a loving family that cares about me and that's helped me. We just need more people to help us. And we need to figure out a way to make these parents accountable for abandoning their children.

KING: John Llewellyn, in a lot of cases law enforcement protects them, right? Because law enforcement themselves are polygamists.

LLEWELLYN: Well, the law enforcement in those two communities, Colorado City and Hilldale, yes. They're more priesthood cops rather than constitutional cops. You know, Larry, the problems that we're talking about in the FLDS, they exist in other organized polygamist cults here in Utah. It's just not isolated there in the FLDS.

KING: You know, there are other, do you mean churches other than FLDS that practice polygamy? LLEWELLYN: Oh, yes. There's about five organized groups, and this is just one of them. It's the largest. I was associated one time with the second largest. This is probably the most liberal group that was the Apostolic United Brethren. But as far as abusing children, child molesting, there's horror stories coming out of just about every single one of these groups about children being molested.

KING: Do you know about the appeal of this to the men?

LLEWELLYN: Sure. It's the Y chromosome. Let's be honest about it.

KING: Sara, do you believe that too? The Y chromosome, is that it?

HAMMON: You know, I think sometimes the men are as much victims of this as the women. I really do. Because these women are being placed with the men sometimes, that when the men don't have a choice to marry them. It's just their religion. It's all they've been taught. And I see some of them --

KING: You realize how bizarre it seems.

HAMMON: Yes. I've seen some of the men go through hell, though. It's not just the women.

KING: We'll be back with more on polygamy with the appearance in court today of Warren Jeffs.

Andre Agassi tomorrow night, don't go away.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The United Effort Plan or UEP is the church trust. The courts have taken over the UEP, but fearful members secretly stuff their tithing money in envelopes that are couriered to Warren Jeffs, a wanted man, while many women and children go without the basic necessities of life.

WARREN JEFFS, LEADER OF FLDS: Some of you will get good jobs. You'll earn a lot of money. There is the test. Will you love your money or your fun and game more than heavenly father, or will you earn money, use only what you need, and give all you can to the prophet?



KING: Carolyn Jessop, is there much of a suicide problem in the polygamist community?

JESSOP: Well, there didn't used to be but there is one now. We had a man just the other day drive his car off the (INAUDIBLE) bridge and kill himself. He was a man who Warren took his family away from him. And his wife and his children were not even allowed to attend the funeral. So we're starting to have those issues, and it's tragic. KING: Fawn, why do these people like Warren Jeffs so much?

BROADBENT: That's all they know. They're afraid of him and what will happen to them if they do take a stand against him.

KING: So it's not like, it's fear?

BROADBENT: It's fear. At least it was for me and a lot of the people that I've talked to.

KING: Do you agree with that John?

LLEWELLYN: I do. A lot of it's fear, based on fear. You know, they're going to go to hell if they don't, if they're not absolutely obedient to the priesthood. The prophet is a surrogate god.

KING: Is he, Sara, charismatic? He doesn't look charismatic.

HAMMON: I don't know that he's charismatic, but there is something about his voice that's very monotone. You and I wouldn't see the charisma in him, but his followers just --

KING: Monotone? You mean it's like even-keeled?

HAMMON: Yes. Very much.

KING: Gentle?

HAMMON: Yes, very gentle. And when he talks, he keeps repeating the same things they've been hearing all their lives. So they just I don't even know that they listen.

KING: What are some of the things he says?

HAMMON: Well, he has been known to preach against black people. He has been known to teach that women should be submissive. Some of his tapes have been played repeatedly.

KING: Are there no blacks, Carolyn, in the FLDS church?

JESSOP: No. It's not allowed. In fact, if they even have a suspicion that a member has black blood in them, they will be excommunicated. It's a very racial group. And Warren actually is dangerous in that he's really promoted that to another level of being extreme and even to the point where in the children he's planting a contempt for human life.

KING: Fawn, he's charged with rape. Do you believe that he raped people?

BROADBENT: Yes, I do. It's in his character that I know him as. And I hope that --

KING: John, do you believe it, John?

LLEWELLYN: Absolutely. If it wasn't for him, there wouldn't have been a rape.

KING: What do you think, Sara?

HAMMON: I don't understand what he said.

KING: Yes, what do you mean by there wouldn't have been a rape?

LLEWELLYN: Well, he's the one that sealed the ceremony. He's the one that said that they had to live plural marriage. He's the one that told the girl that she had to multiply and replenish. And you know, all those children in Colorado City didn't come from the grocery store. They came from sex.

KING: Sara?

HAMMON: I disagree with that. This has been going on for a long, long time. These arranged marriages were going on when my mother was a child. Warren Jeffs did not start this. He just took it completely over the edge.

KING: Of course arranged marriages are biblical. They arranged marriage 2,000 years ago, didn't they?

HAMMON: Right. Yes, they did.

KING: Got to be very hard to go with someone you don't know.

HAMMON: Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. And as a child from the time that I could understand what was going on around me I knew that I was being groomed for marriage. And the only way I can describe it is as I was reaching my teenage years it was like what I would imagine it would feel like walking to the guillotine. You know, knowing that the clock is ticking and it's going to be all over.

KING: And you're going to have to spend a life with someone --

HAMMON: And that's the end of life as you know it.

KING: Thank you all very much. We'll continue doing lots of this as the trial approaches. Sara Hammon, Carolyn Jessop, Fawn Broadbent, and John Llewellyn. One last reminder before we go, tomorrow night Andre Agassi, his first major interview since his emotional goodbye to tennis last Sunday. You won't want to miss it. Agassi, not only one of the greatest players who ever played, but one of the nicest and best people who ever played. Generous to a fault, very, very philanthropic and what a player. Andre Agassi, tomorrow night. Speaking of what a good guy is, we have one coming up, John Roberts is one of our good guys here at CNN. We love him. He's going to host "AC 360" tonight. John, it's yours.