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CNN Larry King Live

Interview with Goldman Family; Suzanne Somers Debates Doctors

Aired November 15, 2006 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, new outrage at O.J. Simpson reportedly getting $3.5 million for a new book and TV special called "If I did it." His publisher calls it his confession.

Murder victim Ron Goldman's father and sister say they're disgusted and they're here with me for their first interview since this story broke.

And then Suzanne Somers under fire in her own controversy, now she goes head-to-head with doctors who say that her fountain of youth could be a health risk to millions of women.

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.


KING: Good evening.

Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman were brutally slain outside Nicole's Los Angeles condo in 1994. Nicole's ex O.J. Simpson was charged but acquitted at the end of a 1995 case that was dubbed the trial of the century.

And now, O.J. has written a shocking and controversial book titled, "If I did it." The book makes its debut in two weeks. But tonight it's already making headlines. And there's a TV special in the works.

Joining me in Phoenix, Arizona is Fred Goldman, the father of Ron Goldman, who was brutally murdered. And, here in Los Angeles, Kim Goldman, Fred's daughter and Ron's sister.

What was your first reaction, Fred, when you heard about this?

FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RON GOLDMAN: Appalled. I don't know other -- there were a lot of other words but none of them we want to use on TV. It was amazing to me that this whole thing has gotten as far as it's gotten.

Nothing would surprise me that this S.O.B. would do but the fact that someone is willing to publish this garbage that FOX is willing to put in on air, is just morally despicable to me.

KING: Kim, how did you react?

KIM GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN'S SISTER: Much like my father and we're two peas in a pod, my dad and I. I think nothing shocks me as it relates to what the killer might come out and say. But the fact that a reputable publishing house and a television network would think that this is what we as viewers...

KING: But they are all...

GOLDMAN: ...want to be watching and reading.

KING: They're all linked. FOX owns, I mean Mr. Murdoch owns Harper Collins and he owns FOX, so he's got it going all ways.

K. GOLDMAN: Well, then lucky for him but it's a sad state of affairs that they think that we as a society think that this is appropriate viewing material.

KING: Fred, the Harper Collins press release announcing the book says, in part: "You will read for the first time ever a bone-chilling account of the night of the murders in which Simpson pictures himself at the center of the action." Do you buy this as hypothetical?

F. GOLDMAN: No, of course not. He pictures himself well because he was there and he knows exactly what he did. And, as far as I'm concerned without ever seeing it but hearing what I've heard, I take this as nothing more than him stating what he did and maybe with a few changes of what he would have done if he hadn't been caught.

KING: And even though found guilty in a major civil suit for lots of money he was found not guilty in the criminal courts and therefore cannot be tried again for double jeopardy, so he could say anything about the crime.

Judith Regan, whose Regan books imprint is publishing the book, has said she considered it to be O.J.'s confession, do you Kim?

K. GOLDMAN: I don't know if I think it's his confession. I think a part of me feels like, you know, it's his narcissistic way of kind of, you know, clarifying what's been said about him. There's a probability that maybe he's trying to poke holes in what we said about him during the criminal case. But, at the end of the day, he's still trying to talk about how two people were killed, one of which is the mother of his children.

KING: If he makes money from the book, which he will, Fred, don't you get a good part of it?

F. GOLDMAN: Not unless we go for it because you can bet that he is already on the assumption he's been given the money, which I assume, you can bet that he squirreled it away and it has been managed to get to him in some circuitous way with the help, I might add, of course, of Regan Books and of FOX. They have helped him avoid the judgment, which makes for an additional outrageous piece of news in this situation.

KING: Kim, are you going to go after the money? Are you going -- you've got legal grounds. K. GOLDMAN: My father and I have always said that we will do whatever it takes to make sure that we are an albatross around his neck and to make sure that he paid for the crimes in which he was, you know, held responsible for. I think there is legal ground. I think our team is putting together a strategy, as we speak. But more than anything this is an opportunity for us to remind the public this is disgusting.

KING: You know, Fred, these days the talk is always of closure. Could it be -- could there be one good side of this that in admitting this you're at least finding out what actually happened that night?

F. GOLDMAN: You know what, first of all I don't imagine for one second that he considers this admitting it but put that aside. No, there's not going to be ever any closure to this. I know what he did. Kim knows what he did. The vast majority of right thinking Americans or people around the world know what he did.

He butchered two people and walked out of a courtroom a free man. And now he is glorifying it in a book. And, as Kim said a minute ago, he is willing, as sick a guy as he is, he is willing to put in a book and on air, he's willing to tell the world how he "would" murder his children's mother and Ron, sick.

KING: Why do you think, I mean you're not stupid, why do you think he's doing this, Kim?

K. GOLDMAN: Because he's a narcissist and he loves the attention no matter how it comes to him.

KING: Even though it's negative?

K. GOLDMAN: I don't even know this is negative. I mean this is not new information. He just has an opportunity to put pen to paper about what he would have done. He got paid. He's snubbing his finger to the system, to the community again.

He's telling us one more time "I'm going to continue to get away with killing your family members and I'm not going to honor the judgment. And look at me, ha, ha, ha." And this is just another test to him to command that kind of attention.

KING: Do you think it's going to sell?

K. GOLDMAN: I don't know but it's timely that it's around Thanksgiving and the holidays and I think that's incredibly choreographed and gross, yes.

KING: A little weird.

K. GOLDMAN: Stocking stuffers.

KING: Do you think it will be well watched, Fred?

F. GOLDMAN: I would hope not. I would not only hope that no one watches it. I would hope that no one buys the book. I would hope that the message from people in this country is sent to his publisher, is sent to FOX that this is disgusting, despicable and that we as a nation won't put up with it.

We won't buy the book. We won't watch your filthy TV. And FOX, by the way, maybe we shouldn't watch any of your TV since this is the kind of trash that you want to put in front of the American public and this is how poorly you think of your viewing public that you would put a vicious murderer on air and have him describe how he would murder two people.

Maybe this is an opening series for FOX and next week or two weeks later they'll have another murderer on describing how he'd murder someone.

KING: By the way, in the next segment, we'll be taking calls. Are you shocked a little, Kim, at the purported price of $3.5 million?

K. GOLDMAN: Yes. The fact that he was given a dime, the fact that he's given air time, I don't know. I guess again nothing in this whole situation has ever ceased to amaze me. And the fact that it's gone and they helped contribute to him aiding the judgment that's equally reprehensible.

KING: We're going to take a break. When we come back more and we'll be including your phone calls with Fred Goldman and Kim Goldman reacting to the announcement today that we've got a book coming from O.J. Simpson that hypothetically describes the night of the murders.

We'll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder.

F. GOLDMAN: Last June 13th, the night before, was the worst nightmare of my life. This is the second.



KING: We're back with Fred Goldman and Kim Goldman reacting to the news today of the publication of this book by O.J. Simpson, subsequent television show on FOX.

We told you earlier about the Harper Collins press release. At the top of the press release there's a quote attributed to Simpson which reads:

"I'm going to tell you a story you've never heard before, because no one knows this story the way I know it. It takes place on the night of June 12, 1994, and it concerns the murder of my ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her young friend, Ronald Goldman. I want you to forget everything you think you know about that night because I know the facts better than anyone."

Fred your thoughts?

F. GOLDMAN: I'm sure he does know them better than anyone. He was there. No one else except Ron and Nicole were there. And, maybe he'll tell us little details we never knew before. But the fact is he's still a murdering son of a "B" and I hope he rots in hell.

KING: There are things dribbling out that he supposedly said he came upon them. He was a little high. Nicole and your brother were necking or making out as he called it. And then he blacked out. That's OK to say it. Hey, you're entitled, Fred, yes.

K. GOLDMAN: You know the truth is there's no evidence to corroborate any of that. There's nothing. There's no -- all the evidence points to, you know, my brother walking up and there being an altercation outside. There's nothing to support it. And, I don't know it's all baloney.

KING: How old would Ron be now?

K. GOLDMAN: Thirty-eight.

KING: Thirty-eight, what times.



KING: Greenwich, Connecticut, hello, as we go to calls, hello.



CALLER: Hi. First of all, to the Goldmans, I have to tell you, you are inspirational and you are courageous. And I just want to know does it give you any comfort knowing that there are so many of us that feel your pain and have you in our heart and we are just as outraged? And I feel as if I'm living this all over again.

KING: Do you have a question or is that just your statement?

CALLER: My question is how does it make you feel knowing that -- does it give you comfort at all at any time knowing that there are so many people that feel your pain?

KING: Oh. Fred.

K. GOLDMAN: Absolutely.

F. GOLDMAN: The answer is -- the answer is absolutely. We have appreciated since day one the enormous amount of support, the enormous amount of care and love that you've shown our family and Nicole's family.

KING: Kim. K. GOLDMAN: My dad said it best. We've been very fortunate that the country has stood behind us and sees the truth that we see. And it's times like this that we need to reach out to them and ask them to support what we're doing again.

F. GOLDMAN: Exactly.

KING: Where is Ron buried?

K. GOLDMAN: In Agora, California.

KING: Do you visit?

K. GOLDMAN: Often, yes. Yes. I miss him. I take my son there and it's incredibly painful to be there but it's important.

KING: And it's hard to conceive here, Fred, you successfully sue him in civil court. You win a $33.5 million judgment, no progress at all?

F. GOLDMAN: No. You know he's never willingly going to pay a dime. He's made it very clear. He has said it over and over and over again over all these years that he's never going to willingly pay a dime.

And, frankly that doesn't surprise me. He's not anything remotely close to an honorable human being and the rest of us would find a way to honor to a judgment but not somebody like him.

KING: Have you ever wondered, Kim, what his existence must be like? I mean what's it like to be -- to go out on the street?

K. GOLDMAN: You know I hope that he lives his life like a pariah. I hope that the country when they see him they spit at him and call him names and try to run him over or whatever it is that they do. But I think that -- I don't know what his existence is like.

He claims that, you know, people love him wherever he goes and that he's got blondes on every corner of his person. And someone said this morning that he sleeps with more women than anybody they could ever imagine. I don't understand it. I think people have a morbid curiosity when it comes to him but I really hope that they shun him and treat him like the murderer that he is.

KING: Fred, sadly, do you think the show and the book will get a lot of attention?

F. GOLDMAN: You know what...

KING: Sadly.

F. GOLDMAN: ...there's always going to be a certain segment of the population who will find this interesting. But I think that instead of finding it interesting you have to look at this as something so morally reprehensible, so sick that we all, all of us need to, like Kim said, shun the book, shun the show, send a message loud and clear that this low life kind of behavior is just totally unacceptable. You don't just... KING: Have you talked to the Browns?

F. GOLDMAN: I'm sorry. You don't glorify murder in any way, shape or form.

KING: Have you talked to the Browns, Kim?

K. GOLDMAN: No, but I'm sure they share our same feelings.

KING: Fred, will you talk to them?

F. GOLDMAN: I haven't but I'd be more than happy to. And, as Kim just said, I'm sure their feelings are exactly the same.

KING: We'll take a break and then we'll have more on O.J. Simpson's shocking new book when we come back.

And later, Suzanne Somers confronts her critics all right here.

Don't go away.


KING: We're back with Fred Goldman and Kim Goldman on the occasion of the announcement of this book.

Nicole's sister, Denise Brown, released her own statement today, which says in part:

"It's unfortunate that Simpson has decided to awaken a nightmare that we have painfully endured and worked so hard to move beyond. We hope Ms. Regan takes full accountability for promoting the wrongdoing of criminals and leveraging this forum and the actions of Simpson to commercialize abuse.

Finally, we regret that Nicole's children, Sydney and Justin, will be exposed to Simpson's inexplicable behavior and we will provide them with our love and support during this time."

Fred, what would you say to Judith Regan?

F. GOLDMAN: You know I can't even imagine what one would say to someone who helps a murderer glorify his crime and pays for it and then takes him to TV. I would say to her that "You have reached, as a person you have reached a moral low and you have reached into the same world that that sick son-of-a-gun client of yours lives in. And you want to become a piece of garbage like him? You're doing it."

KING: Didn't she think and FOX think and Harper think of what reaction they'd get to this? I mean this can't be a proud press release.

K. GOLDMAN: I don't know but look at all the play she's getting and look at all the play FOX is going to get and look at...

KING: Yes, but all of it is negative. K. GOLDMAN: I know but people will watch it and that's what, you know, my dad and I end up in a Catch-22 in these situations because it's important for us to speak about and ask people to boycott and ask people to not buy it and not view. But in the same breath, we give more time to it and we legitimize if and so...

KING: Between a rock and a hard place.

K. GOLDMAN: Yes, but it's important that people know that we do not support this.

KING: Lavonia, Michigan, hello.

CALLER FROM LAVONIA, MICHIGAN: Hi, there. Mr. Goldman, Kim, I am so sorry for your loss. I'm glad you're still advocating for your son. Please never stop.

F. GOLDMAN: Thank you.

CALLER: My question is do you have any knowledge if O.J.'s children with Nicole have knowledge of his book deal and how do you think it will make them feel when they find out? I mean as a mother that's the first thing I thought about just like Kim that's her brother and your son. You know my heart just really dropped.

KING: It's a good thought, Fred. How would the children feel?

F. GOLDMAN: I'm certain that they'll know about it and I...

KING: They can read. They're of age.

F. GOLDMAN: Yes, I can't even imagine what kind of thoughts will go through their mind knowing that their father will describe in a book how he murdered their mother and murdered another human being because I'm certain for all these years he's been denying it left and right. And now he turns around and as much as tells the world he did it.

KING: In a sense, Kim, this was the only way he could make money, right?

K. GOLDMAN: Well we know that he's been making money.

KING: Doing what?

K. GOLDMAN: His autograph signings and his speaking engagements. I think he was an emcee to some concert or something a couple years back. I mean this is the first time that we've heard of it legitimately being earned in a public way. But, again, you know, who knows where it went? There's rumors of it going to an offshore account in the Bahamas somewhere.

But $3.5 million, I mean and this is a man who has gone on live television to tell people that he won't do anything to ever earn a dime to honor that judgment and so interesting that this is now coming out.

KING: What's it like, Fred, for you when you see him?

F. GOLDMAN: Kim gave me some great words recently and the answer is simple. He makes my skin crawl. He is a disgusting, despicable person. I won't even -- don't even want to call him a human being. He's something lower than that. There is nothing, nothing positive about this piece of garbage. He's a murderer. He's a wife beater. He's a sick, narcissistic sociopath.

KING: Have you talked to attorneys yet, Kim, your attorneys?

K. GOLDMAN: Yes, they're all fired up and we're (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Oh, they are?

K. GOLDMAN: Yes and we're sitting and trying to figure out a way to handle this. You know from the emotional side we've got it covered but now for the legal side it's important for us that we strategize and that we take the appropriate measures to nail it.

KING: Fred, this may seem ridiculous but will there be any part of you inclined to watch it?

F. GOLDMAN: You know I don't know the answer to that, Larry. I've thought about it and I don't know. There's a piece of me that doesn't want to have anything whatsoever to do with it. And, as I suggest that others do, boycott it. Don't watch it.

On the other hand, given what I heard, read a few minutes ago about his first few words in his so-called book, it's amazing to me that he would write this thing. So, I'm not quite sure what the answer to that is going to be.

KING: Are you going to watch it, Kim?

K. GOLDMAN: I don't know. I feel the same. I have a hard time hearing him talk about my brother...

KING: Sure.

K. GOLDMAN: about our family name but I don't want to but I don't know.

KING: Overland, Kansas, hello.

CALLER FROM OVERLAND, KANSAS: Hi. To the Goldmans I'm terribly sorry for your loss and continuance of all this pain; shame on America for allowing such a thing. My question is can you pursue a lawsuit against FOX News? I think America will back you by doing this. And I think that possibly you should go after this author but especially FOX News for airing this. And, America wake up! Don't buy the books and turn off FOX completely.

KING: Fred.

F. GOLDMAN: Well, the answer is I don't know. And, as Kim said a minute ago, we've been talking and deciding and beginning to discuss what kind of action we'll take and so on. I appreciate this lady's comments and (INAUDIBLE). I agree. Don't watch the show. Don't buy the books. Send the message loud and clear.

KING: And, by the way, the suit would be against FOX News, against FOX Broadcasting.

F. GOLDMAN: Broadcasting.

KING: FOX News is a division of FOX Broadcasting among many divisions, FOX Theatrical and the like but it's FOX Broadcasting that will air this right at the end of sweeps.


KING: Conveniently enough.

K. GOLDMAN: Conveniently.

F. GOLDMAN: Conveniently.

KING: Thank you both very much. Hang tough. We'll be calling on you again.

F. GOLDMAN: Thank you, Larry.

K. GOLDMAN: Thank you.

KING: Fred Goldman, the father of the late Ron Goldman brutally murdered alongside O.J. Simpson's ex-wife Nicole back in 1994 and Kim Goldman, Fred's daughter and Ron's sister.

When we come back, Suzanne Somers takes on her critics. There have been a lot of stories in the papers about this. Don't go away.


KING: Welcome back.

Suzanne Somers' new book "Ageless, the Naked Truth About Bio Identical Hormones," there you see its cover, has generated a whole lot of controversy since its release earlier this year.

The book promotes bio identical hormones. It claims they are better at treating aging in menopausal women than hormones from traditional drug companies. Critics have called some of the advice in the book dangerous.

Suzanne is here tonight to take on her critics and defend the book.

There will be others later, but with us now, joining Suzanne is Dr. Erika Schwartz, internist and women's health expert, author of "The Hormone Solution". She has some problems with Suzanne's book. She joins us from New York.

T.S. Wily is here in L.A., researcher and author, has co-written "Sex, Lies and Menopause". She's the focus of the criticism directed at the book.

And also in L.A. is Dr. Diana Schwartzbein, who has studied hormone treatment for 16 years, is an advocate of bioidentical hormone treatment. However she, too, has problems with the book, and she's one of the doctors who wrote a letter to the publisher.

What did you say, Diana? What did you write about?

DR. DIANA SCHWARZBEIN, SIGNED LETTER: Well, Larry, what we wrote about was that we really applaud Suzanne for bringing awareness about bioidentical hormones. But our concern is about methods that haven't been researched. And when you take 16 different physicians, and -- actually 15 -- and then interview a lay person, T.S. Wiley, and make it sound as if those hormones and her protocol have been thoroughly researched, that's where my problem lies.

SUZANNE SOMERS, AUTHOR: Let me tell you my problem. My problem is that Diana signed the letter without having read the book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: That's not true.

KING: How do you know?

SOMERS: That is true. She told me in an e-mail. And she just told her in the green room. But...

KING: Did you read the book?

SOMERS: You said you read T.S. Wiley's chapter.

SCHWARTZBEIN: Well, that's what I'm here about. I'm upset about the chapter...


SOMERS: I spent two years writing an amazing book. An amazing book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I would say that it's a great book.

SOMERS: You haven't read it. You haven't read it.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I don't need to read it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn't need to read it. She's a doctor.

SOMERS: No, but really.


SOMERS: Just let me say something. Diana's an incredible doctor. I have given her credit. She has written the forwards to many of my books. I have given her credit for being my original teacher, an incredible teacher. She taught me about the insulin connection, which is how I wrote my Somersize books. Amazing doctor...

KING: But...

SOMERS: She has a problem with T.S. Wiley.

SCHWARTZBEIN: That's not true.

SOMERS: The problem is what she's saying is that these are not studied. There's no long-term double blind studies. There's no long- term double blind studies on what she was doing with me all the years that you put me on bioidentical hormones.


KING: Hold on. Hold on.

We kept interrupting each other.

What, T.S. Wiley, is a bioidentical hormone?

What is that?

T.S. WILEY, AUTHOR, "SEX, LIES AND MENOPAUSE": It's a molecular structure that mimics the hormones in your body made out of plants, usually. Soybeans, yams.

KING: You favor its use?

WILEY: Oh, absolutely.

SOMERS: And so do I.

WILEY: Much better than synthetics.

SOMERS: She started me on it.

SCHWARTZBEIN: But you know what? Here's the problem. You're not listening to what I am objecting to.

KING: What are you objecting to?

SCHWARTZBEIN: I'm objecting to the fact that when you read the chapter on T.S. Wiley, it sounds as though she is a molecular biologist who has thoroughly researched her protocol.

KING: So you're faked out by this?



SOMERS: Well, it's interesting because the makeup lady just read my introduction and said she didn't think I was a doctor or a molecular biologist.

KING: Let me get in Dr. Schwartz's thoughts. Where do you stand on all of this, the author of "The Hormone Solution"?

DR. ERIKA SCHWARTZ, AUTHOR, "THE HORMONE SOLUTION": Well, I stand on the issue of women's health. I think that -- you know, I commend Suzanne Somers for having raised awareness about bioidentical hormones.

But I think at this point, Suzanne Somers has gone over the line. I am here after 30 years of practicing medicine. I've just left my patients to come here to talk to you.

Women are confused. They're desperate. They need help. They don't need controversy and people fighting over it. They need answers.

KING: How did she go over the line, Erika?

SCHWARTZ: She has endorsed a person, Wiley, who doesn't have any credentials. People like Diana Schwartzbein and the physicians I represent have been working for hundreds of years together seeing patients. We know when somebody's sick. We know how to treat them.

You cannot endorse and do what Suzanne did without repercussions. You know, the point is that Suzanne is great about raising awareness. Suzanne should be raising money for research. Suzanne should have left the practice of medicine to doctors. Let us take care of the patients.

Bio-identical hormones have become a source of controversy and we don't need that. We need women to be safe and we need women to have access to them in an honest -- in a very controlled...

KING: Erika, hold on a second.

Suzanne is having trouble hearing you. So I'm going to take a break and we'll come back. And so we'll get her up to speed as to what you said.

Don't go away.


KING: Just so we understand, T.S. Wiley is a researcher and an author, right?


KING: And what Dr. Schwartz said, and you had trouble hearing a little, Suzanne, was that you're practicing medicine without a license.

SOMERS: But that's because she hasn't read the book, either.

KING: How do you know?

SOMERS: Because she said that. Let me talk for a moment.

KING: But you don't have a license.

SOMERS: But I'm not...

SCHWARTZ: That's not true.

SOMERS: ... anybody ...

SCHWARTZ: I read every word of the book.

SOMERS: No, you didn't. No, you didn't.

SCHWARTZ: And you know what?

This should not be an argument about Suzanne Somers or Wiley. It's about women.

KING: Erika, hold it a second.

SCHWARTZ: It's about women's safety.

KING: Erika, hold it a second.

Erika, hold it a second.

SOMERS: This is what -- I interviewed her for my book and this is what it was like.

KING: How do you know she didn't read the book?

SOMERS: Because if you read my book, it is such an incredible book for women. I take every hormone, what it does, how it works, why you need it, what you feel like when you don't have it.

I interviewed 16 doctors, each one of them I found -- what is your area of specialty. I took the different ways that women take bioidentical hormones and laid it out.

KING: And what do you make of all these complaints against it?

SOMERS: I don't understand. It doesn't make any sense. I interviewed Erika Schwartz for my book.

KING: Do you think it's drug company induced?

SOMERS: I -- makes me wonder when I don't understand something. And I also -- what I don't understand about Erika Schwartz is what she has -- what she's really upset about is T.S. Wiley. And I have something here that I think that you need to see.

And that is, here she is writing a complaint about the fact that I am writing about rhythmic cycling, which is one of the ways that you can take it. It's my right as a writer.

And she has been prescribing T.S. Wiley's protocol up until as recently as December -- I mean, October 12th, 2006. This woman is a hypocrite..

SCHWARTZ: After your book came out.

SOMERS: Right.

This woman is a hypocrite. She's trying to discredit my book.


KING: Dr. Schwartz, do you prescribe her therapy?

SCHWARTZ: I prescribed one patient at the request of the patient.

SOMERS: That's not true, Erika.


KING: If we all talk at once, no one's going to understand.

T.S., how did you get interested in this?

WILEY: How did I get interested in this? I'm a woman and I was aging and I was unhappy about it.

I worked with Dr. Schwartzbein on a book ten years ago. We have a history. And I got very interested in endocrinology and I kept going. I wrote some books on my own. I published on my own.

SOMERS: The thing is...

KING: You're not saying, Dr. Schwartzbein, that she's a fraud, are you? All right, what are you saying?

SOMERS: I'm not a fraud.


KING: She's not a doctor?

SOMERS: Thank you, Diana.

SCHWARTZBEIN: She's not a doctor. What I'm saying is, if you read the chapter on T.S. Wiley, what you come away with is that her protocol has been thoroughly researched and it will help prevent cancer. And that is not true.

SOMERS: It's an interview.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I don't care if it's an interview. You are advocating...

SOMERS: You signed a letter discrediting my entire book...

SCHWARTZBEIN: No, I did not.

SOMERS: Yes, you did.


KING: Did you say in the book that you can cure cancer -- prevent...


KING: Hold it, Dr. Schwartz.

WILEY: The oncologist I've worked with six or seven years now -- actually seven or eight, maybe, we're old -- presented 55 cancer patients on the Wiley protocol and a large group of doctors called ACAM, the American College for the Advancement of Medicine, just ten, 15 days ago. And we looked at what's happening it cancer patients.


WILEY: Doesn't matter if it was poorly received. It was the truth. We don't care how you receive it. We care what's happening.

KING: All right. Dr. Schwartz, succinctly, Dr. Schwartz...


KING: ... succinctly, what's your beef?

SCHWARTZ: You know what, you know what the problem is? We are wasting precious time with millions of people watching arguing instead of addressing what's really needed, which is safety for women.

Women -- there are 30 million women in menopause today. By 2010, there will be 60 million. What are we offering them? We're offering them arguments.

Women need to take care of their diet, their exercise, their lifestyle. Hormones are a small piece of it. Some women do not need hormones. Bioidentical hormones are a great option that needs more research.

KING: And now what is wrong with that statement? It needs more research.

SOMERS: What is wrong with it is that in the aging process, our hormones decline. If we all figure out that we just put back the hormones we've lost in the aging process to the exact amount that we need, we won't need all the other drugs that we're being offered.

Right now women...

SCHWARTZ: Based on what information?

SOMERS: ... women are given synthetic hormones.

KING: And she's asking, how do you know that?

SCHWARTZ: Based on what information? What studies?

SOMERS: Oh, come on, Erika.

SCHWARTZ: What science? What studies do you have?

SOMERS: Erika...

SCHWARTZ: You are an actress. It's OK. Promote, raise money.

SOMERS: No,, no.


KING: All right, let's go to Diana.

, break this.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I would love to break this. What we're still trying to say is this: if you take good care of yourself, you eat well, you manage your stress..

SOMERS: Which I say in my book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: ... you manage your stress -- can I finish, please?

SOMERS: It's hard.

SCHWARTZBEIN: And you sleep, you know, you have good night's sleep and you watch your chemical intake and you balance out your exercise...

SOMERS: Everything I said in my book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: ... you need small amounts of hormone replacement therapy.

SOMERS: Not necessarily.

SCHWARTZBEIN: This does not fill the tank back up again.


SCHWARTZBEIN: You know all hormone systems are interconnected.

SOMERS: Of course.

SCHWARTZBEIN: And when you're just looking at the estrodial (ph) and progesterone system, you mess up the adrenal glands.

SOMERS: We're not in my book. My book covers adrenal, covers thyroid...



SCHWARTZBEIN: I wish you would let me finish my statement.

KING: All right, Suzanne, let her finish.

SOMERS: I know, I know. It's just that I spent two years writing this book.


KING: And she has the right to critique it.

SCHWARTZBEIN: Yes, thank you.

What's going on is that the Wiley protocol does not take into consideration every other hormone system in the body. And I will tell you that I have had many complaints from different patients who have used your protocol, and they are calling up now. And they are having problems with their adrenal glands that have been affected by the higher doses of progesterone.

SOMERS: Can I respond to that?

KING: Now let her respond.

SCHWARTZBEIN: And I'm a physician getting patient complaints, you know.

WILEY: And we hold meetings in Santa Barbara once a month for 50 to 80 people on the Wiley protocol, and it is remarkable how many of them are your ex-patients, Diana.


SOMERS: You know what, that is true.

It's just true.


SCHWARTZBEIN: You know, I'm not even going to go to that level.

WILEY: OK. But you have to.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I have been following my patients for 16 years...

SOMERS: Not the ones that come to us.

SCHWARTZBEIN: ... and we're looking at -- that's right because I'm not clinically practicing anymore.

KING: How are they applying these hormones?

SOMERS: Why aren't you clinically practicing anymore?


SOMERS: My point here is not about the Wiley protocol or about the static dose that she was doing. My point is I wrote an incredible book that lays out everything she just said.


SOMERS: Here's -- here's how you strengthen adrenals, cortisol, insulin, thyroid. Here's what you do about your estrogen, progesterone, DATE pragmenitol (ph).

KING: OK. Hold it. I got to...

SOMERS: It's the whole concert.

KING: I've got to grab a break. We'll come back with that panel and then in the remaining moments later in the program, Suzanne will discuss this with two others. One agrees and one disagrees.

We'll be right back.

First, let's check in with Anderson Cooper, the host of "AC 360".

What's up tonight?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey Larry, thanks very much.

Tonight, Iraq, the war and the election. All of it came together today in a Senate hearing in Washington. The general in charge of the U.S. forces in Iraq facing questions, questions like "Should there be more troops?" and "Should we pull them out?"

And the senators were not happy with the answers. It was a remarkable day. We'll have that.

We'll also be talking about what you were talking about earlier, Larry, O.J. Simpson's new book, the one where he speculates about how he would kill his wife. We'll have an exclusive interview with the former prosecutor in the case, Christopher Darden.

That's at the top of the hour -- Larry.

KING: Thanks, Anderson.

We'll be back with more.

Don't go away.


KING: We're going to get some other viewpoints on this and then let them all go at it.

In Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. Wolfe Utian, the executive director of the North American Menopause Society. We should note Dr. Utian provides consultation to pharmaceutical companies on hormone treatment.

And in Raleigh, North Carolina, Dr. Larry Webster, who studied hormone treatment for ten years. His interview with Suzanne Somers forms Chapter 23 of her book.

All right, Dr. Utian your thoughts on the topic as we've so far discussed it.

DR. WOLFE UTIAN, NORTH AMERICA MENOPAUSE SOCIETY : Larry, I think the whole group as I heard it, are all off base. If they sound more like a cult. This whole bioidentical thing is really merchandising under the guides of medical practice. They're all marketing.

Ms. Somers is selling a book. She's 16 cutting experts, none of whom have any published research.


UTIAN: The physicians, if you go to their websites, are selling promises, silver bullets, against aging with barely a nanoshred of evidence for proving what they're claiming. The compounding pharmacies are making large margins on drugs.

And the only people who are suffering are women out there who are confused. Their health is being threatened by promises of drugs that really do carry risks. And their pocketbooks are being hurt.

So I think this is really harmful to women and I'm really concerned because women are who we are speaking about.

KING: Let me get the thoughts of Dr. Larry Webster and then back to the women as well. And then we'll round robin.



We have literally thousands of women coming in, following Suzanne Somers. There's so many women out there that are desperate, that are having menopausal symptoms. They go from doctor to doctor without answers and don't get any answers.

They come into our office in tears. And we have over a 90 percent success rate. We turn these people into functioning human beings again. Yes, bioidentical are effective and they are the answer.

KING: How would you respond to that, Dr. Schwartz?

SCHWARTZ: I agree that bioidentical hormones are the option and they are a solution. But what I would like to do is extend a hand to Dr. Utian to bring in the drug companies, to help us raise money for research, because what's he's saying is really not based on research. It's based on translating information found on research on synthetics on to bioidenticals which is totally erroneous.

You're absolutely...

SCHWARTZ: I extend a hand to Suzanne Somers and ask her to raise money for research so once and for all this debate which the only harming women comes to an end.

UTIAN: Larry, where the real confusion is taking place is that this word bioidentical is estrodial, it's estrone, it's estriol, it's progesterone. These drugs are available in commercial products that are approved by the FDA.


UTIAN: I have no problem if a bioidentical product was also scrutinized by the FDA and if the compounding pharmacies would put in a patient package insert the same way as with all the drugs and warned about the risks these bioidenticals carry. They carry the risk of blood clots, of strokes, of heart attacks, of breast cancer.

KING: Hold on, doctor. Suzanne?

SOMERS: Dr. Utian is funded by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals.

UTIAN: I am not funded by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals. I'm not.

SOMERS: I have it in my purse here if you'd like me to bring out more pages. I Googled you today. Your information is all out there. You're funded by Pfizer by SmithKline.

UTIAN: Yes, and by the compounding pharmacies who also come to a meeting and we give them open opportunities.

KING: That doesn't make him wrong.


KING: One at a time.

SOMERS: It gives him an agenda. See the thing is, Erika, Diana and Susie and myself are really are all on the same side. It's just -- there's some crap about not wanting a protocol.

UTIAN: You're all selling something and I'm not selling anything.

SOMERS: I'm not selling anything.

UTIAN: Not at all.

SOMERS: Dr. Utian you know that you're heavily funded by Wyeth. It's right there in your information. And Wyeth is the biggest funder of NAMS, which was the article that "Newsweek" wrote. She had gone to the NAMS convention, this is where this doctor said the entire medical community is upset with Suzanne Somers. I must say as I was walking out to speak to several hundred doctors of ACAM in Palm Springs. So Dr. Utian has an agenda and Dr. Schwartz and -- who we don't get along very well, Dr. Schwartz...

UTIAN: ... My agenda is women's health.

KING: One at a time.

SOMERS: Dr. Schwartzbein and I, who have been very good friends and Susie, who I think is a brilliant, brilliant savant in that sense. We are all doing something great for women. Dr. Utian is a man. He cannot relate to what we go through. But women out there all over America cannot sleep, cannot...

KING: Would you agree with that, Diana?

SCHWARTZBEIN: I agree that Dr. Utian is off when he's saying that there's no difference between the synthetic Premarin Provera versus the bioidenticals. Basic science research gives us the difference between them already. What are we trying to sell? Premarin has equinyl.


KING: Hold on, we're getting too technical. Let me get a break.

SOMERS: He's talking about horse estrinol.

KING: By the way, if you hear some drug names or companies mentioned tonight, CNN is not promoting the use of any drug. We recommend you contact your doctor before any medication. We'll be right back.


KING: I'm going the try to break this down in the simplest forms in our remaining moments. First, a quick note, we invited a representative from Wyeth Pharmaceuticals to take part in today's show. They declined, but Wyeth did provide a statement. Here's part of it.

"Today, women with concerns about hormone therapies have frequently become targets of unproven bioidentical hormone replacement, products that are often promoted as safer and/or more effective alternatives to FDA-approved products. In fact, there is no scientific evidence to support these claims, and no FDA-required safety information is consistently provided to these women. As a result, many women are confused about the risks associated with treating their menopause symptoms. Wyeth believes that women and health care providers need complete and accurate information about all medications."

WILEY: Larry, may I say something? We have a package insert in the Wiley Protocol that has contra-indications and warnings. We do that as a bioidentical. We're standardizing the Wiley Protocol.

KING: You should, right?


KING: Dr. Webster, why do you have such faith in this?

UTIAN: Larry, I can just say something in relation to that Wyeth statement? You should disregard the Wyeth products. The active ingredient that's in the bioidenticals is the identical stuff that's available in many of the commercial products from the pharmaceutical companies.

SOMERS: Horse estrogen.

UTIAN: We're talking about exactly the same stuff.

KING: OK. I'm trying to...

UTIAN: ... These are the same products. It's just that they're packaged differently and they're made differently. That's the only thing. The active ingredient is the same.

KING: The question was for Dr. Webster. Dr. Webster, why do you have such faith?

WEBSTER: Why do I have such faith? Because I see woman after woman change their lives, having a productive life and again getting back into society, having a memory, focus that they never had before. They don't have hot flashes. They don't have vaginal dryness. All those different improvements I see day after day.

UTIAN: But that is a normal effect of estrogen therapy.

WEBSTER: No, sir, I see a lot of side effects from the synthetic hormones because we get a lot of people in that have not had good results.

SOMERS: The bioidenticals are also synthetic. They're made from...

WEBSTER: ... Yes, but how do you change the chemical structure?

KING: I've only got a minute and a half. Dr. Schwartzbein, break it down simply, what is your complaint with that chapter?

SCHWARTZBEIN: My complaint with that chapter is it has not been thoroughly researched, which is what everybody is saying. I would just like it to be made clear so that when women read Suzanne's remarkable book, touting the differences between bioidentical hormones and synthetics, I think that's great, they don't come away thinking that they can take bioidenticals without some risks.

That's all I'm asking. If you would just say that T.S. Wiley is not a scientist. She's a woman whose interest...

WILEY: Excuse me? I'm a published scientist. Have you published, Diana? SCHWARTZBEIN: Yes, I have, actually.

WILEY: So have I.

SCHWARTZBEIN: OK, are you going to interrupt me?

KING: Let me give Dr. Schwartz one more shot here. Is there anything you'd like about Suzanne's book?

SCHWARTZ: I think that Suzanne does a great job of raising awareness about bioidenticals but I think the issue is going back to Wolf Utian. He doesn't even understand the difference. He's using data together with Wyeth on synethics and translating it to bioidenticals in research.

KING: Dr. Schwartz, the question was, do you like Suzanne's book?

SCHWARTZ: With the exception of Wiley's protocol, yes.

KING: You are the one most attacked here.

SOMERS: Out of 400 pages, there's seven and half pages that she's so upset about. Can I just say one thing?

KING: Quickly.

SOMERS: If we are right -- Dr. Schwartz, Dr. Schwartzbein, myself, T.S. Wiley -- if we are right, that by replacing the bioidentical hormones lost in the aging process, we will no longer need antidepressants, sleeping pills, speed, tranquilizers.

KING: If you're right.

SOMERS: If we're right. And so far, those of us on it feel great.

SCHWARTZ: But in the meantime, we're taking preparation.

KING: We're out of time. Thank you guys.

UTIAN: Not a shred of evidence, what a shame.

SOMERS: You do synthetic hormones.

KING: Thank you all very much for being with us. Tomorrow night, the power of positive thinking. We could use the panel here. Anderson Cooper is next. He's in New York to host "360." Anderson?