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CNN Larry King Live
Paris Hilton Back in Jail
Aired June 08, 2007 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Paris Hilton is back in jail. The handcuffed heiress crying in the back of a sheriff's car on the way to court, where the judge's ruling left her sobbing and screaming for mom.
(VIDEO CLIP OF PARIS HILTON)
KING: From the wild paparazzi push-fest outside her Hollywood mansion to the drama inside court to the sheriff sticking to his guns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE BACA, LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF: Obviously, she's back in my custody and she'll stay there. And we want to use her as the example, then that's the case. The judge...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We've got it all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was remanding Miss. Hilton to serve the remainder of her sentence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: And love is or hate it, you know you're going to watch. With us, the .com's Harvey Levin, the Hollywood insider who's had info on this case before the judge.
Dominick Dunne, a friend of the Hiltons and an expert on the trials and scandals of the rich and famous.
And Paris Hilton's "Simple Life" co-stars.
What was she like behind the scenes to these regular folks?
It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
The saga continues.
We have an outstanding panel.
They are, in Los Angeles Dominick Dunne, the host of "Dominick Dunne's Power, Privilege & Justice" on Court TV, "The New York Times" best- selling author. And he's been in L.A. Covering the Phil Specter trial, but has taken time to look at this.
Also in L.A. Harvey Levin, the managing editor of TMZ.com. TMZ has been in the lead on many aspects of this story.
Also there is Tony Potts of "Access Hollywood," the weekend co- anchor and correspondent. He was in the midst of the media madness outside Paris' house today, as the handcuffed heiress was hauled off to court.
Mark Geragos, the high profile defense attorney -- many, many celebrity clients.
In Phoenix, Arizona, a return visit with Sheriff Joe Arpaio, the Maricopa County sheriff, who has been dubbed "the toughest sheriff in the West."
And here in Washington with us is Dr. Robi Ludwig, the forensic psychiatrist.
All right, Harvey, what's the latest?
Where -- where is she?
HARVEY LEVIN, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ.COM, BROKE STORY OF HILTON'S RELEASE: Well, she's in the medical wing of County Jail right now and that's where she's going to be for the weekend, Larry. And it looks like on Monday there will be an appeal. And it depends on what happens with the appeal. If it fails, Paris is probably going to spend around 19 more days in jail.
KING: Tony, why the medical wing?
TONY POTTS, "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" CORRESPONDENT, WAS IN CRUSH OUTSIDE PARIS' HOME TODAY: Well, she's under 24 hour watch. I can tell you that she actually went into something called the IRC, which is the Inmate Reception Center. It's actually between -- it's actually considered the brains of the entire system.
She went into there for a specific reason -- one, to be admitted; but, two, they had to take off the bracelet around her ankle, as well.
From there, she did go to the medical building, which is actually behind the Twin Towers. It's not in the Twin Towers itself.
She will be under 24 hour guard, Larry. She will also have a sergeant who will walk with her everywhere she goes. She will also be watched by video camera 24-7, as well, because I hear from my inside sources that they're very worried about her condition over the next 36 to 48 hours, Larry.
KING: Mark, why you surprised at what the judge did today?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I'm not surprised because of the public outcry. I'm a little surprised -- but I guess it'll happen on Monday -- that a notice of appeal will be filed. And once that notice of appeal is filed, then they will get bail automatically and she should be released on Monday.
I had thought they would do it today, but my understanding is, is that Judge Sauer was not there this afternoon. And I don't know where he was. Somebody told me he was in -- he was at his church getting a standing ovation. So that tells you all you need to know about this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a Friday?
GERAGOS: Apparently.
KING: Dominick Dunne...
GERAGOS: This is a really...
KING: Dominick Dunne, what's your celebrated read on all of this?
DOMINICK DUNNE, HOST, COURT TV'S "POWER, PRIVILEGE & JUSTICE," FRIEND OF HILTON'S: Well, I think this is one of the great cultural events of America. I mean, this -- this is one of the most bizarre stories I have ever known. I mean this is going to be one great movie -- soon. I mean, Paris Hilton, she's -- has one of the most famous women in the world and the stir that she has caused. I mean I used to think of her as just this girl going to opening nights and waving at the camera.
But what's happened and her several arrests and her drinking booze out of the bottle and her making the pornographic movie that's going to be stuck with her for the rest of her life -- and she finally got into real trouble.
And -- anyway, she's the big news in town.
KING: Sheriff Arpaio, I guess you agreed with the judge's decision today?
SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA, KNOWN AS "TOUGHEST SHERIFF IN THE WEST": Yes, I agree. I don't know about the 19 days. She should be doing 40 or 45. But that's that issue.
I have all these gals behind me. They're in a hot tent. It's 128 right now. I could let them all out in house arrest, but I would never do that. Never let them out, so they can, what, drink martinis and steak and everything else?
So I have a policy, there is no house arrest.
KING: So, and, actually, as you said yesterday, you wouldn't have let her out in the first place, right?
ARPAIO: No, she would not be released. I'm not criticizing the sheriff. I just hope that he understands, he's the elected constitutional sheriff and runs the jail. He should not let judges tell him what to do. That's another issue that has to be looked into.
KING: Robi Ludwig, you're a psychotherapist.
You want to read this for me?
First, explain why people are so interested in this.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D. PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I mean that is the big cultural question.
Why is she so fascinating?
Because she's famous for being famous. Listen, maybe she is a very nice, intelligent girl. But she doesn't stand for anything, except for somebody who is beautiful and does the party scene.
KING: So?
LUDWIG: I think it's a reflection of what's wrong in our society, that this is what's news. This is what's interesting. That we're interested in people because they're in the limelight.
KING: Did we cause the interest, we the collective media?
LUDWIG: It's a combination. It's hard to know what comes first, the chicken or the egg. I mean, obviously, it's being covered because people want to watch it. She's a pretty girl. We're intrigued by wealth, glamour and fame. And what's interesting, now it's taken to a new level, even if you're not talented and you don't stand for anything.
KING: Harvey, do you think some other pretty girls may have gone to jail somewhere in America today?
LEVIN: Well, yes, but -- but not like this. I mean, I'm telling you, this is -- this is a case -- other pretty girls who aren't famous in a similar circumstance would spend a couple of days. This judge was a jerk, Larry. He was an absolute jerk. He wants blood out of this woman. She is being hammered for who she is, not what she did. The -- the judge continues to be completely unreasonable, ignoring what is an obvious...
KING: Why...
LEVIN: ... medical condition right now.
KING: Why then...
LEVIN: And...
KING: ... Harvey, why do so many people applaud him?
LEVIN: Well, they're applauding him because a lot of people hate her, Larry. But that doesn't -- listen, it's not a popularity contest. Judges...
POTTS: Yes, but...
LEVIN: Judges are not supposed to start gauging what the public is going to think about a sentence.
POTTS: Yes, but here's what...
LEVIN: And, boy, if 10 days is good...
POTTS: Here's what her...
LEVIN: ... 20 days will be even better.
GERAGOS: Exactly.
POTTS: But here's what's ironic, though, is that she never wanted to be treated like an average Joe.
So she wasn't.
(CROSSTALK)
POTTS: You know what I'm saying?
(CROSSTALK)
POTTS: and that's why America is applauding.
LEVIN: That's not the judge's role to say...
POTTS: I understand that. I understand that.
GERAGOS: And that's what's so disturbing about all of this. That's what's really so disturbing about all of this. You would hope that the judge would be the person who would stand in the way of that and would say I'm not going to be bullied by public opinion. I'm not going to just succumb. I'm not going to go get my standing ovation over at church or wherever it is that I'm going.
LEVIN: Absolutely.
GERAGOS: That's what's so disturbing about all of this.
You know, when you say she doesn't...
POTTS: I agree.
GERAGOS: ... stand for anything, she does. She stands for something in America. She stands for being rich and famous. That's what everybody thinks of when they say Paris Hilton. So what this is, is you -- is class warfare in reverse.
KING: Do you...
GERAGOS: It's OK, I don't care if she's not getting treated fairly, we're going to treat her more harshly.
KING: Dominick...
GERAGOS: And what people say...
KING: Dominick, do you think the judge copped out?
DUNNE: I don't know. I think he was wrong in the first place. I think the sentence was much too long and -- I don't know if he copped out. I actually don't know that.
KING: Sheriff, you disagree with all that?
You think they did the right thing. In fact, you wanted more days, right?
ARPAIO: Yes. All these gals behind me, a lot of them are DUIs. They're doing six months in the tents. That's where I put them, so
why is the big argument that she didn't -- you know what's 40 days?
GERAGOS: Well, Sheriff, I just have one question for you...
ARPAIO: I mean I don't understand that.
GERAGOS: I'll ask you one question.
ARPAIO: Yes, who is this, the lawyer?
GERAGOS: Yes, the lawyer. Right. It's the guy who's concerned with the constitution.
ARPAIO: My friend.
GERAGOS: Right. My good friend, the sheriff.
ARPAIO: Yes?
GERAGOS: I would just ask you one thing -- do you discriminate on their bank accounts as to whether or not they do 40 days?
I mean, if they're got less money, do they do less time? More money they do more time? Is that how you distinguish...
ARPAIO: No.
GERAGOS: ... or does everybody...
ARPAIO: No, I'm an...
GERAGOS: ... do the same time?
ARPAIO: No. I'm an equal opportunity...
GERAGOS: Does everybody do the same time?
ARPAIO: Will you let me finish? I'm an equal opportunity incarcerator. I don't discriminate.
GERAGOS: Well, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
ARPAIO: Everybody does the same time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the Paris Hilton case wasn't equal.
GERAGOS: Well, right. And that's not what's happening here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
GERAGOS: That's all I'm complaining about.
KING: All right, we'll be right back, guys...
GERAGOS: So maybe we don't have a disagreement.
KING: We'll be right back with everybody.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARA FINNSTROM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A judge has ordered Paris Hilton now back to jail. And it was an emotional Paris Hilton that left this courthouse. She was sobbing, visibly shaking. There was an outburst. She cried for her mother and deputies actually surrounded her as she was led out of the courtroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BACA: As of this moment, Miss. Hilton is being housed at the correctional treatment center at the Twin Towers facility located in Los Angeles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COMMERCIAL
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BACA: And I think that I have to take care of this woman because that is my responsibility. She's not getting much help from anybody else, let me say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back.
I understand Tony Potts has some information.
Tony?
POTTS: Yes, Larry. I think Sheriff Arpaio in Arizona is going to go crazy when he hears that.
But Thursday night, apparently, I'm being told by sources that Portofino Sun Spas, the traveling tan van, came by to see Paris and gave her a tan on Thursday night while she was on house arrest. So it continues to -- the bizarreness of this case continues with the Portofino Sun Spa's traveling tan van giving Paris Hilton a tan while she's on house arrest.
KING: By the way, that's allowed, as long as it was at the house, right, Tony?
POTTS: Apparently, yes. They have a long hose.
KING: Like she could order pizza?
POTTS: Yes. Exactly.
KING: OK.
Sheriff, does that bother you?
ARPAIO: Well, my inmates get to tan under the hot sun in the tents.
(LAUGHTER)
ARPAIO: So I don't know about...
(LAUGHTER)
KING: Another interesting...
ARPAIO: And they don't have to...
KING: We'll get right back to you, Sheriff. There's been a lot of dramatic moments in this whole thing, but also came not so dramatic, as when David Letterman was interviewing Paris Hilton's co- star, Nicole Richie, earlier this week, and brought up pending court case.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN," COURTESY WORLDWIDE PANTS INC./CBS)
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST: Tell us a little bit about -- you know your friend Paris is in prison now.
and...
(LAUGHTER).
LETTERMAN: ... have you -- have you talked to her since she went away?
NICOLE RICHIE, ACTRESS: No, I haven't spoken to her. No. LETTERMAN: Did you talk to her before she went in?
RICHIE: Yes.
LETTERMAN: Yes.
RICHIE: Yes, I did.
LETTERMAN: And now how was she feeling before she went away?
RICHIE: Just like anyone would feel before they were going to go to jail.
LETTERMAN: A little...
(LAUGHTER)
LETTERMAN: You had some legal troubles of your own, didn't you?
RICHIE: Yes...
LETTERMAN: Now, have...
RICHIE: I've had a few.
LETTERMAN: ... those have not been entirely resolved, have they?
RICHIE: No. No, they haven't.
LETTERMAN: Yes. I don't know the details of your problems, but is prison a likelihood or is it -- am I...
(LAUGHTER).
RICHIE: Um, yes.
LETTERMAN: Really?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Curiouser and curiouser.
We have an e-mail from Jamie in Vero Beach, Florida: "Are they trying to make a statement or is there a real reason for putting Paris behind bars for her full term?"
Mark?
GERAGOS: Well, clearly, they're trying -- yes, they're trying to make a statement. It's not -- there is no real reason, other than they're going to make an example out of her. I guess if there's a silver lining here, it's that it gets some people to discuss what the underlying problem is, which is that Sheriff Baca does not have enough money and we put too many people in jail who do not belong in jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes. GERAGOS: So, if we can -- if we get that out of this, I -- I guess that we ride it on Paris' back, so be it. It's an awful, I think, personally, it's an awful situation. I know there are a lot of people who are cheering and think it's great. And when we've devolved to the point in America where we cheer people getting disproportionate treatment, I think that's a statement about the culture, as well.
KING: Psychiatrically, Dr. Ludwig, what is the long range effect on her of all of this?
LUDWIG: Well, it depends on how she processes it.
KING: What's she going to be like at 30?
LUDWIG: Well, it depends if she hits rock bottom, you know?
I don't know if she's hit rock bottom yet. I don't know if she's hit a crisis yet. If she's ordering in somebody to come in and give her a tan, that tells me that maybe reality hasn't set in, that when you drive drunk you can kill somebody.
It's not funny. Prison is not hilarious. And the dark side of fame is you get the rewards, you get treated very well and then the dark side is you get treated roughly.
KING: Dominick, is there a side of you that feels sorry for her?
DUNNE: Yes. Yes, indeed. You know, I've been looking at all these films about her over the -- all these videos and so forth -- over the last couple of days. They've been endless. And, you know, there's something very nice about her -- the way she speaks to people, the way she interacts with people.
There's a -- there's -- she's not like a bitchy rich girl snob...
POTTS: Dominick, that's completely false. If you go on the Internet, there's a video that's on the Internet that has her -- racial slurs, homophobic statements and what have you. So you obviously haven't seen all of the videos.
DUNNE: Well, no (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
POTTS: The video is out there on the Internet. Look it up. It's -- it's actually quite shocking, if you take a look at it.
KING: Dominick, there are probably many sides, right?
DUNNE: Yes.
GERAGOS: Well, everybody is complex. I still don't -- I still don't understand -- and it's amazing. I don't see people in an uproar discussing whether or not the president is going to pardon Libby. The -- you know, you've got the sheriff here in Arizona, he's got his senator there who's ready to pardon him, somebody who actually obstructed justice and was convicted of it in a federal grand jury. I don't see Americans getting outraged about the idea that somebody could get pardoned. Fred Thompson, who is maybe the punitive or the next president, is talking about that yes, if he's elected president, he would pardon this guy Libby, who's Cheney's chief of staff -- or was Cheney's chief of staff.
I -- why is it that that's OK, that the discussion to pardon somebody...
KING: Well...
GERAGOS: ... absolutely wipe the slate clean is OK but people are outraged and it becomes an obsession when you're talking about Paris Hilton...
LUDWIG: Because she's entitled.
GERAGOS: ... having to do more time?
LUDWIG: Because she's somebody who prances around, I'm entitled. Now she may not feel that way, but that's how she looks. That's the perception.
LEVIN: But I don't get -- I don't get what this has to do with anything. The fact is, she may be a bad person even. Let's assume she is -- and she's not, but let's assume she is.
What's the deal?
Do you punish somebody because they're bad or do you punish somebody for what they did?
You know, why are we psychoanalyzing this woman?
The fact is, it's mechanical. You look at the crime, you look at the time. And the time is out of whack with the crime, period.
GERAGOS: Right. And that's what I was going to say, Robi.
What difference does it make if she's entitled or not entitled?
Would you say that if she's humbled and therefore she doesn't deserve any time, if it's a -- if it's somebody who has no money and they drive under the influence...
LUDWIG: For me, it's not about...
GERAGOS: ... then they should get no time?
LUDWIG: ... money. I'm concerned that somebody who operates like the rules don't apply to me is driving around drunk and doesn't feel like she needs to answer to anybody.
GERAGOS: Yes, but this is...
LUDWIG: Now, how that gets processed... GERAGOS: But she did answer...
LUDWIG: ... legally is -- is perhaps something different...
GERAGOS: Right. And that's...
LUDWIG: But it is disturbing to me, and I think it should be disturbing to everybody.
GERAGOS: It's -- she's...
KING: Let me get a break.
I'll be right back with you, Mark.
We'll be back with our panel.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think she should be in jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(AUDIO CLIP FROM "BACK ON THE CHAIN GANG")
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really think she's getting a bum rap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We support her no matter what happens.
(AUDIO CLIP FROM "BACK ON THE CHAIN GANG")
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just hope that Paris gets treated like everybody else in America would be treated in the same situation.
(AUDIO CLIP FROM "BACK ON THE CHAIN GANG")
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I wish you well. I hope everything goes well. But don't let the man get you down. Just do your time and don't look back. All right, peace out.
(AUDIO CLIP FROM "BACK ON THE CHAIN GANG")
COMMERCIAL
KING: We're back.
And there you see the Twin Towers in downtown Los Angeles. An e-mail question from Stephen in Evansville, Indiana: "Why would someone with her money not have a driver, especially when she wanted to go out drinking?"
Harvey?
LEVIN: You know what?
Every time we -- every time we do a story on a celebrity who's popped for DUI, I get this question. And I mean from Mel Gibson on down. I mean, you've got to wonder. A lot of them kind of like the freedom of being able to get in a car and go where they want to go. I mean it gives them a little bit of a sense of normalcy. But, obviously, there is that alcohol equation to all of this, that they're not considering so much.
KING: Tony, don't they think at all or are they so whacked out on liquor that they don't?
POTTS: Well, I think they think beforehand but, as you know, once you get whacked out on liquor everything changes. The base of your ability to make determinations and decisions rapidly changes.
But I think Harry is right in a sense that, you know, they're driven around everywhere anywhere and the drivers can all hear their conversations. And they can finally get in the car by themselves and talk on the phone and do what they kind of want. And I think they like that freedom, although today I can see by the video we're seeing that Paris didn't like sort of ride she had today. And I'll tell you...
KING: Mark, where...
POTTS: Hold on, Larry.
I'll tell you real quick, right before she got in the car, I was there to the right and I saw -- her mother was to the left, where you see that blue Bentley there, the convertible. That's about 400 grand. Her mother Kathy said over to her...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More like 260.
POTTS: Oh, OK.
She said -- she said to her, she goes -- because Paris yelled out, "Mom!." And she said don't worry, we're going to be right behind you. We're going to follow behind you. I love you, honey."
And they backed out and then that's when her mom went and got in the SUV.
KING: Mark Geragos, when you defend someone charged driving under the influence, what do you say? What do you -- how do you defend that in court, assuming that you're representing someone who did it?
GERAGOS: Well, if -- the first question is, is was there a test? Is it a breath test or blood test here in California? If it's a breath test, you go and you take a look and see if the machine has been calibrated properly. If it's a blood test, you go and you take a look, see if whether or not the way they tested the blood, it was done properly, whether there's a sufficient amount of preservative.
And then you have to do one of these -- without getting into the technicalities -- see whether or not the time of the test correlates to the time of the driving.
KING: All right. But when it's determined that your client did it, how do you explain to the judge the action of driving drunk?
GERAGOS: Well, there's a -- it's not really so much to the judge. The judge has very little to do with driving under the influence cases. That is pretty much -- other than trial, it's a negotiation between you and the prosecutor. And the prosecutor has a pretty set standard.
If it's over a .08 and between a .08 and .09, or maybe a .10, they may give you a wet reckless. In some cases, they will give you what's called a dry reckless. If it's over a .10 and it's above a .15, they may ask for an extended program, meaning instead of doing a 90 day program, you do a six month program.
So it's all negotiated and the laws have gotten tougher and tougher. It's actually easier now to walk somebody out of jail in California on a first time commercial burglary with no jail time than it is on a second offense DUI.
POTTS: And, Larry, let's not forget, Larry, that originally her sentence was 36 months probation, alcohol education and a $1,500 fine. If she would have followed that, she would have loved to follow that, I think, on this day.
GERAGOS: Well, and the DUI was dismissed.
POTTS: Yes.
GERAGOS: She was not...
POTTS: So she...
GERAGOS: She did not plead to a DUI.
POTTS: ... screwed up by driving twice without the...
LEVIN: And you know what's really interesting about the driving -- driving on a suspended license, the day that happened, I remember like, gosh, it must have been five minutes after it happened we got wind of it. I know that shocks you, Larry. But we got wind of it. And I got on the phone with her publicist. And her publicist said to me -- and I know him, and he was -- he really believed it. He said I am telling you, Paris' license is not suspended.
And I really believe she didn't think her license wasn't suspended because it wasn't done by the court, it was done by the Department of Motor Vehicles.
So, she should have known, but I really believe she didn't know.
KING: Sheriff...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Sheriff...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Hold it.
POTTS: ... instead of your lawyer.
KING: Sheriff Arpaio, do you have many DUIs in your jail?
ARPAIO: Yes, I've got a lot of DUIs. Half the people in the tents are DUIs, but they're serving their time. They have to go to jail at least one day. And, you know, everybody's...
KING: Are they remorseful?
ARPAIO: Yes, a lot of them go through our education programs. Yes, they are. But unfortunately, they don't have a lot of money to keep fighting these cases, like this gal does with all her money.
GERAGOS: She didn't...
ARPAIO: I don't know why she's getting all this publicity.
GERAGOS: Well, she didn't exactly...
ARPAIO: I mean who is she?
GERAGOS: She didn't exactly fight her case. She entered a plea. She entered a plea...
ARPAIO: Well, she...
GERAGOS: ... in both stages.
ARPAIO: Yes?
GERAGOS: And so she didn't exactly...
ARPAIO: And she violated
GERAGOS: ... fight her case.
ARPAIO: And she violated...
GERAGOS: And then she violated...
ARPAIO: ... her probation.
GERAGOS: She violated her probation.
ARPAIO: And she was given a chance.
GERAGOS: Then she went to a hearing and then she got sentenced. That's absolutely correct.
ARPAIO: And she was given a chance...
KING: Dominick Dunne...
ARPAIO: So let her go do her time.
KING: Dominick, do you think she's being treated differently?
DUNNE: Well, yes, of course, she's being treated differently. But I think -- I mean the fact that she got out so quickly, so you know -- I have learned so much being on here tonight. These guys know so much more about this story than me.
But, you know, I'm curious about when this is all over. I mean, the old life for her ain't going to work anymore -- going out to night clubs every night and being photographed. This is going to be a very different person.
(CROSSTALK)
POTTS: It could actually help her because actually...
LUDWIG: And you see, that would be ideal
POTTS: Yes, it could actually help her profile.
LUDWIG: That would be ideal if she actually changes, because I think she gets a lot of negative/positive attention for her bad behavior. I mean, this is a person who's followed when she behaves badly, and it's not serving her well. She's not becoming a healthy, happy person as a result. And I don't care how much money you throw at her, the bottom line is she's behaving in a very self-defeating way and getting attention for it.
KING: We're going to take a break.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think...
KING: And when we come back, we're going to meet some of the people who were helped by -- by Paris. They were campers at Camp Shawnee, part of that TV show. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up. Sir, back up. Back up. Back up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Backup.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up. Watch your back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS HILTON, ACTRESS: So this week at camp we're going to learn how to be healthy and live a good life.
NICOLE RICHIE, ACTRESS: We're starting a revolution.
HILTON: Yes, a revolution of being healthy.
RICHIE: Picking your own herbs. Not those kind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: We're joined now by four cast members from "Simple Life" who worked with Paris Hilton. They are Gloria Johnson, Arlene Hampton, Joey Carmona and Eric Lockke. Gloria, what was she like?
GLORIA JOHNSON, PARIS HILTON'S "SIMPLE LIFE" CO-STAR: She was very down-to-earth, just a regular person, you know. She was fun, smart.
KING: You liked her?
JOHNSON: Yes, I really did like her. She was nothing like what we thought she could be.
KING: Arlene, what do you make of what she's going through with the press?
ARLENE HAMPTON, PARIS HILTON'S "SIMPLE LIFE" CO-STAR: You know, Larry, it's horrible. You know I'm definitely feeling for her. You know she's a great girl, very supportive to us while we were in the camp. And my heart just goes out to her. My prayers are with her. And I know this is just -- it's a heartbreaking time for her and her family. So I'm definitely just sending out my love and support to her, Larry.
KING: Joey, the sheriff is saying she has a serious medical problem. Do you know anything about that?
JOEY CARMONA, PARIS HILTON'S "SIMPLE LIFE" CO-STAR: No, I have idea. Just whatever they're saying on the news and stuff, and I really don't hear much of anything.
KING: Drinking Joey?
CARMONA: Me, no
KING: No.
Eric, what was she like to be around and work with?
ERIC LONKKE, PARIS HILTON'S "SIMPLE LIFE" CO-STAR: She had a great sense of humor, and she was really smart. She's nothing like you would see on TV in the media or anything like that. She's a very nice person, kind-hearted. She was there to help us and to motivate us, as much as she could. And we really had a good time with her. She was just like every other person that you'd ever meet on the street.
KING: The show is wrapped. Gloria, have you had any contact with her?
ANDERSON: No, not since the show. But you know we know that she's going through some...
(AUDIO GAP)
KING: Did you ever see her drink, Arlene?
HAMPTON: Oh, no.
KING: Not at all?
HAMPTON: Not at all.
(AUDIO GAP)
CARMONA: Yes, absolutely, very good conversation.
(AUDIO GAP)
LOKKE: We kind of talked about that a little bit.
(AUDIO GAP)
LOKKE: But unfortunately...
(AUDIO GAP)
SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MANICOPA COUNTY, AZ: ...maybe this should be a learning...
(AUDIO GAP)
ARPAIO: Go ahead.
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: All I was going to say, Sheriff, I think today was a horrible precedent for the sheriff and for -- if you're in law enforcement, the last thing you want is to cede your authority and to basically go against the penal code here and allow the judge to override what the legislature has said is your problem.
HARVEY LEVIN, TMZ.COM: And that's exactly what happened today. And indeed, before the hearing, it was delayed two hours because the sheriff refused to pick her up at her house and take her to the courtroom because the sheriff was saying this is my domain not your domain and the judge wouldn't budge. And there was a standoff and finally the sheriff caved.
KING: Dominick, you know your parents very well, do you not?
DOMINICK DUNNE, HOST, COURT TV: I do. I don't know about very well but, yes, I know her parents.
KING: Have you spoken to them? And if you haven't, how would you imagine they're handling this?
DUNNE: Well, I happen to like them, and they're very, very nice people and, you know. But I do think that they bear a responsibility for the way their daughter has turned out. And this has to be an absolutely terrible, terrible -- I kept seeing that picture of Rick Hilton on the news today over and over again. And I mean, these are suffering people.
KING: We'll take a break and we'll be right back with more. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's great, man, you know. She has to get hit with reality sometime, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was to be drinking and driving, I would be in jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't understand why we care whether Paris Hilton is in jail or not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's really ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense that she gets this much attention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Robi Ludwig, what happens there? We show you the twin towers again. What happens when the cheering stops and the attention goes away?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, I think that's when her prison sentence really starts.
KING: Because we will get tired of that, right?
LUDWIG: That's eventually when she's going to have to face who she really is. And so she's getting a high off of all of the attention. And when she no longer gets that, then she will have to face who she is and what she stands for. And I think that's when the depression is really going to kick in for her.
KING: Tony, what would you bet concerning her future? TONY POTTS, CORRESPONDENT, "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD": You know we were just talking about that, where does she go from her. I do know that on the MTV awards on Sunday, some of the other celebrities were keeping their, you know, distance from her as well. Will she come out of this?
You know, the guests before were talking about how smart she is. She is a very smart businesswoman. I think all of us will agree. You know she's go out and she'll do three and four appearances in a night into, change her wardrobe three or four times, get paid between 75,000 to 150,00 grand for each one as well. The question is, you know, will she still want to do this.
And, maybe Dominick will answer this question, is there a book in all of this? Is there kind of a silver lining in the extra day that she's going to spend now makes a book that can be 120 pages, 200, 210 pages? So I don't know.
Dominick, maybe, what do you think?
DUNNE: Well, I mean I think there is definitely a book in this. And I think thing of class structure of America would be in this, and the anger of the poor against the rich. And I think it would be -- and, you know, a fascinating leading lady in Paris Hilton.
KING: We have an interesting twist here. I don't know if it arrives, but let's delve into it. Mary Winkler was sentenced for the shotgun killing of her minister husband today. Mrs. Winkler got three years in prison. With time served in probation, she could serve maybe 67 more days in custody. She confessed to shooting her husband in the back, said he was physically and emotionally abused.
Now it's coming to a point here, Mark, where those two sentences may be close to each other.
GERAGOS: Well, only in the time that's left. There isn't a day that goes by that some client doesn't say I know somebody who got this kind of a sentence, and you have to know what the factors are. The reality is you have to compare apples with apples. And in this case that's why I sit here and keep saying that this sentence is out of proportion to what other people get for the same sentence. That's why it's unfair.
KING: How do you think it's going to wind up? How many days will she serve?
GERAGOS: Well, I think what's going to happen -- and if I can predict it again, I believe what will happen is on Monday the lawyers will file a notice of appeal. Once they file that notice of appeal, she's automatically entitled to bail, and that she should get bail because it's a misdemeanor on Monday and that she should be out. Then if the lawyers argue at that point that this is double punishment and that the judge exceeded his authority and ceded -- part of this was usurping the sheriff's authority, the appellate department here should reverse it. Whether they do that or not, I don't know because this appellate department is notoriously tough on reversals, but she is entitled to bail. And as soon as they file the notice of appeal she'll get it.
KING: Let's take a call from Massillon, Ohio -- hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Larry.
KING: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, my question is to you is when they released Paris from jail the first time, if she's got a severe medical problem, why didn't they take her to the hospital instead of releasing her from jail? What if something would have happened to her?
KING: Harvey?
LEVIN: Well, they weren't saying that she required hospitalization. What they were saying was the jail was screwing her up, and that just means that she could still see her shrink at home. I mean, I don't think that means you automatically have to go into the E.R. because you have a medical issue. They were saying being in that jail was creating a situation where she could have had a nervous breakdown.
KING: Back with more after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paris Hilton's quick release from jail outraged people from coast to coast.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could be back behind bars sooner than you think.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Paris prison fallout, her release from jail after only three days sparked outrage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paris Hilton has been ordered back to court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For reportedly a medical condition officials won't reveal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, Hilton will see if the judge agrees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The report now is that Paris Hilton has been ordered to go back to jail. She has served three days of a 23-day sentence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Any downside to being a Hilton? RICKY HILTON, PARIS HILTON'S FATHER: Yes, we live in a fishbowl. And a lot of times people will say things that are not correct and that's quite bothersome, but you get used to it.
KING: When you read of things in tabloids that are untrue, how do you react?
KATHY HILTON, PARIS HILTON'S MOTHER: Well, you know, as we all know, the media does not portray people exactly how they are. And sometimes the good things aren't true and sometimes -- a lot of the times the unkind things are not true.
KING: And how do you react?
R. HILTON: Don't read it.
K. HILTON: Don't read it. Don't read it.
KING: And friends don't tell you did you see?
K. HILTON: Some people do, some people do, and then sometimes I get brave because in a sense it becomes addicting too. It's like I've got to see it. I've got to see it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That were the Hiltons on this program two years ago.
Sheriff Arpaio, have had you had a high-profile prisoner in your jail?
ARPAIO: Yes, I got a lot of high-profile prisoners.
KING: I mean well-known people?
ARPAIO: Yes. But I treat them like everybody else. They eat the 15-cent meals; wear the pink underwear, striped uniforms. There's no discrimination.
If this gal wants to do something, why doesn't she want to do some public service announcements, make a positive out of this and go to all the people that adore her and say don't drink and drive. Why doesn't she do that?
LUDWIG: I absolutely agree with you, and that would be a positive her if she could learn how to do that. The problem is she would have to learn her lesson first.
KING: What's the point of the pink underwear, sheriff?
ARPAIO: Well, they were stealing the white underwear so I put them in pink because they hate pink, at least in this county.
KING: Mark, last night you said the judge in this case would be helpless to do anything. What happened?
GERAGOS: Well, he is helpless to do anything. All he can do is sit there...
KING: Send her back to jail.
GERAGOS: ...send her back to jail and don't follow the law. He is helpless. I mean, he did not, in my opinion, did not follow the law. I think he's going to get reversed. He should get reversed. What he did was in violation of the law. So he basically -- the sheriff was forced to roll over in this case.
KING: Let's take a call. Mission Viejo, California, hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.
KING: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was wondering why the judge gave Paris prison time rather than community service, such as cleaning toilets or something teaching her...
KING: Mark?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...and getting her some therapy.
GERAGOS: Well, I tell you, that's very standard. On a probation violation, in L.A. County, the standard operation procedure is you get what's called Cal Trans, which is you wear the orange uniform not pink, but orange on the side of the freeway and you pick up trash and you dodge cars. You do that or you do graffiti removal or you go and pick up trash on the beach. That's what usually happens when you get a probation violation. And frankly, I would much prefer seeing people on probation violations, dodging cars and picking up trash off the side of the freeway.
KING: Harvey, do you think that kind of punishment works?
LEVIN: Oh, I think it absolutely works. I mean, listen, think about it if you're Paris Hilton, going from, you know, from high night clubs in Hollywood and you know fancy dinners to wearing the jumpsuit that Mark was talking about, you know. And I don't think punishment should humiliate but it should humble. And I think that that kind of community service has really humbled someone. And it's appropriate.
KING: I'm going to take a break. And when we come back, I'll ask each of our guests to give me a prediction on where all of this is going. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": She'll now spend 40 days under house arrest. Oh, shut up. Have you seen her house? Couldn't they have punished her a little bit more than that? At least give her guest house arrest. Stay in the little guest house near the pool.
DAVI LETTERMAN, HOST, "LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": Seriously, she was released for medical reasons and she gave the warden several notes from doctors, Dr. Jackson, Dr. Grant, Dr. Franklin.
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": She was in jail for just over 74 hours. I've been in monopoly jail longer.
CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "LATE SHOW WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": Today, they let Paris Hilton out of jail. Paris' time in prison is already being made into a move called "The Rawskank Redemption."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: So the gate is open. Paris is inside the sheriff's car. It will back out this way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give us some space.
POTTS: And then it will come back out. It's about 10:20 in the morning. Paris will be on the right side of the car. And when she pulls out she'll be on the opposite side of the paparazzi, the opposite side of the cameras. You can see her in the back. She is by yourself. She just said good-bye to her mom and her father, Rick and Kathy Hilton. So you can see she's in the back of the car once again.
You can see the madness down on the street here. It's absolutely incredible. People are trying to back up. People are jockeying to get the shots. People are screaming and yelling. They're backing up. In the back seat, there she is right there. And there she goes and there's the madness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: And we'll get the predictions of our guests in just a moment. Our text vote question of the night last night was did Paris get preferential treatment? Eighty-nine percent of you said yes. The other 11 percent said no.
An e-mailer asked tonight's question earlier and now it's your turn to sound off. Tonight's text vote question, do you think the courts are making a statement by putting Paris Hilton back in jail? Text vote from your cell phone to CNNTV, which is 26688, text KingA for yes and KingB for no.
OK, let's run it down. Dominick Dunne, where's all of this going to go?
DUNNE: Well, it's going to be fascinating to watch. It's going to be -- you know, the interesting thing is that today when she was crying and screaming outside, which I did not see but heard about, she called for her mother. I mean, she is close to her mother and father. This is probably the best time to become a family again.
KING: Yes. Harvey Levin, where is this going?
LEVIN: Well, I think right now there's a window of opportunity for her. I mean, in my world what celebrities want most is to be relevant. And Paris Hilton has never been so relevant. Every single media outlet in America is talking about this today, and there's a way of elevating her presence. And if she makes something of this, Paris Hilton could end up enduring because she's a great businesswoman. The issue is what she does with it.
KING: Tony Potts, what do you think?
POTTS: Well, she's relevant, but she's also on the cusp of being irrelevant. It depends on what she does. If she does write a book, maybe she takes the proceeds from that and gives it to MADD or SADD, you know, maybe for folks who lost their loved ones because of DUI. That's about the only way she come out and rehab herself.
KING: Mark Geragos?
GERAGOS: Well, my hope that somebody -- that at least there's going to be a discussion of what goes on in the criminal justice system and that maybe people can start to understand that their initial perceptions are not the actually the correct perceptions.
KING: And sheriff, what do you think is going to happen?
ARPAIO: Well, I think this is a bigger battle regarding the courts and the sheriff. It's a constitutional issue, and I don't think this will be dead.
KING: And Robi?
LUDWIG: My concern is if she demonizes everybody else and makes herself a victim, then she doesn't really learn anything. So she would have to experience a crisis. When her manipulations no longer work, then she's going to have to face herself, and hopefully then there's an opportunity to really change.
KING: Does she need help?
LUDWIG: I think so. And to ignore the signs as a mistake, to be kind of blinded by the glamours and the -- there's a drinking problem. She's behaving in a self-defeating and self-destructive way. I think we need to address it.
KING: Well, her parents are caring people.
LUDWIG: Yes.
KING: Do you think they would strongly urge that she...
LUDWIG: I hope so. And they also would have to kind of eliminate this idea that she's not being treated fairly and see the forest through the trees. Listen, there's a reason why this is happening to Paris and I think you need to be proactive about it and say, what can we do to help our daughter. KING: It could be a curse to being famous.
LUDIWG: Well, there's a downside of fame. You know the -- you're in the limelight. Both your positive and negative qualities certainly are there. And people are out to get you, so you have to be kind of strong and prepared for that. And if you're a young kid basically and you haven't developed yourself it makes it tougher.
KING: She might be too young for all of this.
LUDWIG: She might be even know though she doesn't think she is. You know she really hasn't developed -- educationally I don't know what her interests are. You know she's into the party scene and after a while that gets pretty empty.
KING: That sex thing was a big mistake.
LUDWIG: Yes, you know...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes and no.
LUDWIG: ...it's what young kids do and she gets some positive attention for it, so it's probably confusing for her.
KING: Thank you all very much, Dominick Dunne, Harvey Levin, Tony Potts, Mark Geragos, Sheriff Joe Arpaio; and Dr. Robi Ludwig; and our earlier guests as well from "The Simple Life" show.
Monday night we have a major program dealing with depression and among the featured guests is Congressman Patrick Kennedy coming forward. Congressman Patrick Kennedy and then major panel discussions on the subject of depression, which is a major American problem.
We thank you very much for joining us.
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