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CNN Larry King Live

"God's Warriors": Fighters For Faith

Aired August 20, 2007 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, true believers on a mission to remake a godless world in their own religion's image.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you have witnessed now is only the beginning.


KING: Christians...


REV. JERRY FALWELL: But if we, in fact, change all the rules on which this Judeo-Christian nation was built, we cannot expect the lord to put his shield of protection around us.


KING: And Jews...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If people, they don't keep the Torah, they don't understand the meaning of being Jews, they're wasting their life.


KING: Fighting for their faiths -- sometimes at the ballot box, sometimes on the battlefield.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour takes us inside her unprecedented journey to the front lines of the clash that's already changing our world. Face to face with god's warriors -- the struggle for hearts, minds, bodies and souls is next on LARRY KING LIVE.

This is a very special week here at CNN.

Christiane Amanpour is our special guest tonight.

And we're going to talk about her CNN special, "God's Warriors".

It will air tomorrow, Wednesday and Thursday nights, a three part series, two hours each. That's six total hours. And the way I figure it out, it gives us the rest of the week off, because we spend tonight with Christiane and some of the people involved in this.

But how did -- what -- how did this come about?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's almost like a follow-on from our very successful "Footsteps of Bin Laden" last year, which aired in August, which was essentially the sort of history -- the personal history of Osama bin Laden. And this was a natural follow-on, because everybody is so interested in this rise of religion. And, you know, we find that it's not just in Islam, that religion is the rise, but it's also across-the-board in the three major monotheistic faiths -- Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

And we're talking in this about al Qaedaism and violence. We're talking about the power of religion and the spectrum of those religions which are convinced and committed to bringing religion out of the personal, into the public sphere, into the seat of power.

KING: Is each of the two hour specials, each of them devoted to one religion?

AMANPOUR: Correct. Yes. And it's really surprising because -- for me it was surprising because on a daily basis, I report a lot about these issues, mostly in reaction to some of the terrible events that happen around the world.

But then when you look deeper into it and you say, OK, violence is a symptom of a certain thing, but let's look at the other aspect of religion, not just the violence, but the very -- some would say controversial aspect of religion -- which is that there are significant powerful segments of each religion who believe absolutely that it is the right thing to do to bring religion into the seat of power. And they're committed to changing culture and society in whatever country they find themselves in.

KING: This growth, is it a worldwide phenomenon?

AMANPOUR: Yes, it's a worldwide phenomenon.

KING: Did that surprise you?

AMANPOUR: It did. It did and it didn't, because you hear about it, of course, in the atmosphere. You hear about it while you're doing your job. You hear about it around the dinner table. People are talking about religion all over the world now.

Honestly, since doing this subject, since starting to shoot it, every time I open a newspaper, every time I turn on a debate, whenever I talk to people, this is what's on people's minds now.

And not just Islam -- although Islam is, I suppose, the most prominent because of some of the world events. But also the rise of political Christianity, if you like; the existence of political Judaism in Israel, in terms of how certain aspects influence the political debate and shape the politics and culture. And it's something that is fascinating. And I think, actually, the media doesn't pay enough attention to it.

KING: It doesn't?

AMANPOUR: No, it doesn't.

KING: There are two whys here.

One, why is it growing?

AMANPOUR: Why is it growing?

I think there are several reasons. One, it's sort of a backlash against what many religious people feel to be a militant secularism. Another is a political expression. And that, I think, is something very interesting. For many people, religion has become a nationalism -- an identity, a way of expressing themselves in a political way, in a way that they have not been able to in a more conventional way.

But definitely a backlash. I think I find that to be the case -- a backlash against what they presume to be a materialistic culture, a godless culture. It's the sacred versus the secular. And it's a struggle.

We call it "God's Warriors" because it is a real struggle. It is a war to bring their religion into the seat of power -- not a war of arms, but a war of struggle.

KING: Now, the other why is why isn't the media covering it enough?

AMANPOUR: I think, in general, the media covers religion when there's something controversial, when there's something like a terrorist attack, like a firebombing of a clinic, like a situation where, perhaps, the settlers and the soldiers in Israel are fighting each other and there's a -- for instance, the withdrawal of Gaza.

But, in general, I would say it's because many -- many in the media probably feel that -- maybe they are more secular. Maybe they do take it very seriously, this separation of church and state, which is real and the law here in the United States. And they feel that, you know, religion is something personal. Many people feel that it's something personal.

But there is this growing group of people who feel that it's not just personal, it must be public, it must be political and it must be about power.

KING: Also, Christiane, is it the opposite when we learn that many of the best-selling books this year were anti-religion -- god doesn't exist.

AMANPOUR: OK, that is true. And those soar to the top of the established best-seller lists.

KING: They do.

AMANPOUR: But one of the complaints, for instance, amongst the Christian community in the United States is that they also have many multi-million dollar selling books coming out of the Christian community about the fact that god does exist and yet people don't pay attention to that.

So we're not here lobbying for or advocating for or drawing conclusions, either political, religious or ideological. What we're saying is here is this massive and important and powerful segment of our societies -- whether your an American Christian or whether you're an American of any other religion, whether you're in Israel or in the Middle East or whether you're in the Islamic countries, there are powerful segments of each religion who believe in being powerful literally, in the seat of power, and shaping and changing the culture and the way the country is run.

KING: And knowing you...

AMANPOUR: One law at a time.

KING: Knowing you, I know you'll get into all the international squabbles.

But how much does the Israeli-Palestinian situation affect the Muslim situation, affect the Christian opinion, when they all intermingle here?

AMANPOUR: Well, they do intermingle a lot. So, you know, I'm sort of keeping the two separate at the moment as I discuss this.

But for sure, the constant open witnessed that is Israel- Palestine, the war that exists in Israel and the occupied territories is a powerful recruiting tool for those disaffected in the Islamic world. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

But, also, right now, another powerful recruiting tool is the Bush administration and the war in Iraq. It is -- it's equaled or surpassed, at the moment, the pool of recruits for those who would come into terrorism and who would do America harm.

And I think, you know, there's a new Pew poll, a recent Pew poll that has just been published which has, I think, rather troubling results.

It talks about how these phenomenal values that the United States espouses and has exported, you know, for decades, are now being viewed with suspicion and with distrust and mistrust.

So, really, the challenge for America and for American leadership is to get that back, to reclaim its values, to reclaim its position in global society and to be able to once again be considered the exporter of great and valuable morals and values.

KING: Christiane Amanpour, by the way, did the last interview the late Jerry Falwell. We'll see a little clip of that when we come back. Her special, "God's Warriors," will air tomorrow, Wednesday and Thursday night, two hours each, from 9:00 to 11:00 Eastern time.

We'll be right back with our chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour.

Don't go away.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): In the United States, the Christian right forged an agenda that would transform the political landscape.

PAT ROBERTSON: We set a 10-year program to have a born again Christian in the White House.

AMANPOUR: In Israel, a small band of religious settlers began a quest that would change the face of the holy land.

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But there's no doubt in any rational analyst's mind that the settlements are the major obstacle to peace.

AMANPOUR: And in Muslim countries, a spiritual awakening sparked the rise of political Islam and an extreme fringe who would become the world's nightmare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Willing to fight for it and die for it and kill others for it. That's the scary part. That's why we ought to take it seriously.




AMANPOUR: As we talked that last week of his life, Falwell seemed to recognize that his battle to end all abortions would have to be won by the next generation of god's warriors.

FALWELL: My children are more likely to see this -- this victory won that I am. I think we're 50 years away. We've got to stay with it, stay with it, stay with it and never give up.


KING: We're back with Christiane Amanpour.

"God's Warriors," the opening segment begins tomorrow night in this time period, at 9:00 Eastern.

It will air through Thursday.

Christiane obtained an interview with Jerry Falwell that turned out to be the last interview. He died about, I think, a week later. And the subject of fundamentalism, which we'll ask about.

Let's first see that clip.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): In Falwell's mind, it was not a large leap from liberal beliefs to Islamic terrorism. As he saw it, you could blame the attacks of September 11th on abortion.

(on camera): You know, you caused a huge amount of controversy after 9/11 when you basically said that the lord was removing his protection from America.

FALWELL: I still believe that. I believe that a country that is...

AMANPOUR: And that probably deserved it.

FALWELL: Here's what I said. No, I said that the people are responsible -- must take the blame for it.

AMANPOUR: You did but you...

FALWELL: ...that we were killing...

AMANPOUR: ...but you went on to say what I've just said.

FALWELL: We're killing a million babies in this country a year by abortion. And I was saying then and I'm saying now that if we, in fact, change all the rules on which this Judeo-Christian nation was built, we cannot expect the lord to put his shield of protection around us as he has in the past.

AMANPOUR: So you still stand by that?

FALWELL: I stand right by it.


KING: How much do you deal with it, with Christian fundamentalism?

AMANPOUR: Well, in a sense it's all about fundamentalism, but, you know, fundamentalism is such a controversial word that we didn't use that as a title for our topic.

But it's fundamentalism in that people are really committed to the fundamentals of their religion and they want, as I say, to see it shape a much broader part of society.

Jerry Falwell, in that clip, really surprised me. Because, if you remember, he made this controversial comment after 9/11 and there was such an outcry against it that he stepped back. And here he went right...

KING: He steps forward again. AMANPOUR: ...steps forward and sticks by it. And I gave him several opportunities to, you know, decide whether he really wanted to say that and he did. He said it. So he believes that. And they, as he said, I don't think I'll see all the changes that I want and I've been lobbying for in my lifetime. And, of course, as it turned out, he did die exactly a week later.

But he knows that it's a long struggle -- and all of them know that it's a long struggle. They're in it for the long haul. And it's about -- the programs are about the nuts and bolts of how they're in it and how they are struggling.

KING: Do the Muslim fundamentalists want to change regimes where they have power?

Do the Israeli fundamentalists want to change -- Jewish fundamentalists want to change Israel?

Christian fundamentalists want to change America?


KING: They do, right?

AMANPOUR: That is one of the unifying factors of all these segments of these religions. Yes, the Christian Evangelicals who we focus on want to change laws to make it a much more Christian country, which is a backlash against some of the Supreme Court rulings over the last 40 odd years, whether it be prayer in school or whether it be the other issues.

But, also, we found that there are some Christian Evangelicals, Christian conservatives, who actually are saying -- and we profile them as well -- that we are very committed to our faith. We are 100 percent fundamentalist, if you want to say that. But we don't believe that god and politics should exist. It's time now for us to step back behind our pulpit and talk about the other things that Jesus talked about, whether it's relieving poverty or the other things he talked about in the New Testament.

Another senior Christian Evangelical told us that, actually, our war is just -- is to save the planet, you know?

In other words, environmentalism Evangelicalism.

Well, people like Jerry Falwell completely dismiss that. You know, they say these people are heretics and they should, you know, be quiet.

But, in other words, it's not a monolith. But they are all committed to changing society.

In Israel, the settlers have had a huge political impact on the West Bank and, you know, the whole issue of peace and power and politics. And we have a fascinating, a really fascinating two hours on, really, the historic way that they actually went and settled and the whole view of it and the way it was done, through the eyes and the voices of the people who took part. And in...

KING: Do you...

AMANPOUR: and in Islam, they're trying to change society and they're trying to, in this -- the way we profile it -- their politics is through religion. And I've concluded that this is going to be an inevitable first step of democracy if it's going to happen in the Middle East, because there has been no opportunity for political activity in authoritarian regimes.

So where have they done it?

They've done it in the mosques. And it's not just about religion. In the mosques, they have cultivated grassroots support and they're winning in democratic elections there.

KING: Do you discuss, at all, suicide bombers?

AMANPOUR: We do. We don't focus the whole segment on it because, as I say...

KING: How do you read them?

What -- what causes someone to...

AMANPOUR: Well, it depends. I mean you've got the Al Qaeda suicide bombers. I think the way to say it is Al Qaeda -- as analysts have said -- have illegitimate grievances and they use illegitimate means.

KING: But how do they get someone to kill themselves?

AMANPOUR: By manipulating them and brainwashing them and convincing them of something that actually doesn't exist in the Koran, and that is, if you commit suicide, you will go to heaven. And that doesn't exist in the Koran. And we got senior ayatollahs in Iran to tell us that those people will go straight to hell, not to paradise.

But then you go to Israel -- Palestine -- and you have a group of people, the Palestinians, with a legitimate grievance who are trying to throw off occupation and who are trying to win a state using illegitimate means, which are the suicide bombings.

So the two are actually separate in terms of their end, but they use illegitimate means.

KING: Is religion a failure?

AMANPOUR: It depends what you mean by success or failure. I would say that it's a struggle...

KING: The world's in chaos. They've been preaching this for hundreds of years.

AMANPOUR: The world is in a very, very serious and dangerous state. The figures show that most of the civil wars right now are fought about religion and that there is...

KING: God's in every war, right?

AMANPOUR: Yes. And increasingly so. But -- and I have covered religious civil war all my career.

KING: I know.

AMANPOUR: There is a way out of it. I covered Bosnia. This was ostensibly a war between the Bosnian Muslims and the Serbian Orthodox Christians. But with enlightened leadership, finally, there was a peace agreement and there was peace enforcement and it ended it.

KING: In Ireland.

AMANPOUR: And the same in Northern Ireland, with enlightened, committed leadership. And I truly believe that that's what's required in many of these hot spots right now.

KING: Christiane Amanpour's special -- the opening episode begins tomorrow night, "God's Warriors". It's a six hour special, two hours each night 9:00 to 11:00, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of this week.

When we come back, four distinguished religious leaders will join us for their input.

Don't go away.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): Two car bombs set to explode on London's streets that failed to detonate. The next day, another vehicle rammed into a Scottish airport -- Glasgow. The alleged terrorists were Muslim doctors -- men who have taken an oath to save lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people, we will not stop this fight. Now you, too, will taste the reality of this situation.


AMANPOUR: As shocking as the violence was the fact that the subway suicide bombers were homegrown terrorists, raised in Britain.

What would make these Muslim turn against their own country?



KING: We're back discussing the subject of religion, something, as Christiane aptly pointed out, the media should do a lot more of.

She's CNN's chief international correspondent and her CNN special, "God's Warriors," airs August 21st through the 23rd. That's Tuesday through Thursday, 9:00 to 11:00 Eastern.

Joining us now to discuss this program, Rabbi Marvin Hier, the dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. He's here in Los Angeles.

As is Dr. Maher Hathout. He's a Muslim scholar and senior adviser to the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

John MacArthur, a frequent guest, with us, as well -- Evangelical Christian, pastor, teacher at Grace Community Church, author and host of "Grace To You" and president of The Master's College -- founder of The Masters Seminary.

And in New York -- and in Washington, rather, is Reverend Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

You are a reverend, right, Barry Lynn?

I thought you were also an agnostic.

REV. BARRY LYNN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE: No. I am a reverend and in the United Church of Christ. And I take that very seriously. But I also take very seriously my obligation, in that role, to promote my faith through voluntary efforts, to try to persuade people to believe as I do and not to try to use the government to compel people to believe as I do.

KING: From what you've heard so far, Rabbi Hier, what do you make of Christiane's special?

RABBI MARVIN HIER, DEAN & FOUNDER, SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER: I think it's fascinating. I think it's right on target.

And I would say one thing, that 65 years ago, the world was in danger of collapse because of a nuclear holocaust, which really would have been brought about, in part, by atheists.

Here we are 65 years later and I think everybody recognizes that religion has become a problem. That is, people who speak in the name of religion can endanger the world if we allow them to do that. And as a religious person,

I'm very concerned about that.

KING: Christiane, a comment?

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, I'm going to shy away from words like problem. But, for sure, religion -- and I've covered this -- has been the excuse or the reason for so many of the wars and so many of the ethnic conflicts and so much intolerance in the world. And that's a shame, because anybody who reads the bible, the Koran or the Torah knows that actually it should be about inclusiveness and tolerance.

So in some instances it is misused.

But for me, the crucial thing is that I don't think we pay enough attention to it, except for in the scare them sort of terrorist wing of religion. And I think that it is such a huge segment of the world's population that I think this -- this program is really important for that reason.

KING: Doctor Hathout, what are your thoughts?

DR. MAHER HATHOUT, SENIOR ADVISER, MUSLIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS COUNCIL: Yes, I think we have to admit that there is a big problem threatening human civilization in the form of religious extremism. And we -- the way we deal with that, unless we deal with it very intelligently, we are going to lose the day.

We don't deal with it by being anti-religion. I think by the word that's said very (INAUDIBLE) by reclaiming the religion. And this is not easy, but it has to be done. And this is the only way out of the (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Is it hard for you when a lot of people blame the Muslims for the problem?

HATHOUT: No. We -- within any group of people who have a theology of death and a theology of life, and what we have to make these choices.

Islam -- that's what I am going to speak about -- I don't see in the Koran anything that glorifies death. Death is a calamity.

KING: Christiane was right, there's no salute to suicide?

HATHOUT: No. Not of -- needless to say, suicide. But I'm talking about death in general. Death is not to be celebrated. It has to be accepted once (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Did Muslim get a bad name?

AMANPOUR: Well, except for there is a deep belief in martyrdom, for what they call the correct causes -- to throw off oppression and injustice. Martyrdom, not suicide.

But I think what you say and what you've both said is really the crux of it and the nub of it, in terms of this clash of civilizations that we seem to be living in now -- to reclaim faith and to make faith a healer, not a divider.

Because faith is there. Religion is there. We are not, no matter what we believe, going to deny that reality and to quote many who have written recently, god is on a winning streak. Religion is resurgent.

The thing, I think, in the Muslim religion, in Islam, I still wait for the day when A, moderate Islamic scholars and imams and people of influence stand up and are able to face down those who are ruining your religion -- the Al Qaeda types, the people who believe that if you don't believe like I do, you should be killed, you're an infidel...


AMANPOUR: And, that, I realize it's difficult but, boy, the time is now.

HATHOUT: But it is being done. And about martyrdom, even martyrdom, it is not to be sought. I don't go out to be a martyr.

AMANPOUR: Exactly.

HATHOUT: If it -- when it happens, I accept it.

KING: John MacArthur, you are an Evangelical Christian.


KING: Right.

You spread the word, right?

MACARTHUR: Absolutely.

KING: You're definitely a fundamentalist Christian.

MACARTHUR: Yes, in the positive sense of proclaiming the fundamental truths of the scripture.

KING: Is there a danger in some aspects of fundamental Christianity?

MACARTHUR: No, I don't think there's any danger in it. I think there's a danger in the prostitution of Christianity. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Jesus said to Peter, "Put away your sword."

There's nothing in Christianity that calls for any kind of dominant power, national power, government power, takeover, war, none at all. This is about a personal relationship with god through faith in the lord Jesus Christ.

KING: But so many of the fundamentalist Christians are what might be called political hawks, aren't they?

MACARTHUR: They are. And that is not, in my judgment, a true representation of biblical Christianity.

KING: We'll be right back with more of Christiane Amanpour's special. The opening session begins tomorrow night.

Reverend Barry Lynn -- we'll have a question for him when we come back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "GOD'S WARRIORS") AMANPOUR (voice-over): Critics say Luth (ph), under the guise of saving teenagers, is imposing his conservative values on the rest of society.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We represent a far bigger agenda, a Christian right theocratic agenda that goes from (INAUDIBLE) believer (INAUDIBLE) Christ to Pat Robertson all the way up to George Bush.

AMANPOUR (on camera): How do you answer that?

They say this sounds like a message of, you know, bringing back your values, but it's actually a message of intolerance and of hate?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you could say it's divisive. Well, maybe it needs to be divisive.




CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good evening, everyone, I'm meteorologist Chad Myers with your weather here, your latest update here on Hurricane Dean, now a Category 5 storm, 160 miles per hour. It will go to the south of Cozumel, south of Cancun, and right over Chetumal, a city there with 100,000 people in it. The 160-mile-an- hour winds right now still spinning around the center, but the flight level. We did just have a plane fly through this eye. They found a flight level wind -- I'm not even sure how they do this -- 189 miles per hour where that plane was flying through.

Right now 160 on the ground. It is forecast to stay a Category 5 storm as it moves over the Yucatan Peninsula and then back into the Bay of Campeche. Here are some of the numbers if you're paying attention. Category 5 still moving west at 20 miles per hour. Looks like landfall at Chetumal will somewhere be close to about 5:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. We'll keep watching it for you. LARRY KING LIVE continues right now.


AMANPOUR: As Israeli soldiers and riot police moved forward -- violence erupted. Demonstrators were beaten. Soldiers and police were pelted with rocks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We wanted to protest the demolition, but nobody intended to harm anyone.

AMANPOUR: No one was killed, but there were more than 200 casualties, soldiers and settlers. All this over nine houses on a tiny plot of land.


KING: We're back. All of this deals with Christiane Amanpour's special, "God's Warriors," airs over three nights starting tomorrow night. Reverend Barry Lynn is in DC, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Of what you've heard so far, what are your thoughts?

LYNN: I think the situation issue is that as long as there are many people, for example, reading that Christian Bible, they are going to emphasize different things. And around the world, the emphasis so often, when covering Christianity, is what did Jerry Falwell say? What has Pat Robertson said about assassinating the president of Venezuela? And for many people all around the world, there seems to be such a heavy dose of fundamentalist Christianity with a very sharp political agenda that there really is a worldwide misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what Christians in America believe because the truth is, we believe many, many different things. That's why we sit around in church meetings or at conferences and debate and dialogue about all of these issues.

But there's no doubt that the people with the most militant ideas about combining their faith with forced acceptance of their faith by others through government power are the people we generally hear about and that I generally debate on CNN for the last 15 years.

KING: Before Christiane comments, is that pretty -- well, does that bother you a lot when you hear that, reverend -- rabbi?

HIER: First let me say this, that I'm not bothered. This is America. And I'm not bothered when anyone has an opportunity to express their view, whether they're fundamentalists, whether they're on the extreme left or the extreme right. That's the business. For example, if people do not get a chance to voice their opinion, that would be the fault of the cable networks and the radio stations that don't put them on. But we can't say to a fundamentalist or somebody, look, you shouldn't speak. That's un-American.

KING: Are you worried by what you hear? It can be freedom, but it can bug you.

HIER: Yes. Look, of course, I do not believe in extremism. I think that the golden rule of Maimonides, moderation, is the only way we'll solve any of the world's problems. And I would like to add, Larry, if I may, that the discussion before -- I want to make sure that it's understood. I'm not -- look, we have 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. Most of them have nothing to do with terrorism and the issues that are involved here.

However, we're not just dealing with al Qaeda. Martyrdom, jihad, Paradise is also in the lexicon of Hamas, Hezbollah and others. And they shouldn't get off free.

KING: Is all that covered on "God's Warriors?

AMANPOUR: Mm-hmm. It's coming, absolutely. Absolutely. I think as the rabbi says, this is America, and the beauty of this country is that you should be allowed to speak, and you shouldn't be shut down for any reason. But it's not about free speech, what we're talking about in this program. It's about the desire to change the laws. And we felt that it was important not to ignore this massive and powerful segment of the society. We felt that it was just important to report on sort of the grassroots activism and the sort of very logical way, whether it be at religious universities, whether it be at religious law schools at those universities where the state admission is one law at a time. We will change, the Supreme Court. And you see it already happening. They have new appointees on the Supreme Court who espouse their views and their similar views. They're not the same religion, but they espouse the views, and the Supreme Court is already moving in that direction.

KING: Does that concern you Dr. Hathout?

HATHOUT: What concerns me is there is not equal opportunity to that freedom of expression. For example, you mentioned correctly that we need the voice of moderate Muslims to be heard. I am here. I am on LARRY KING, one of the most respectable outlets in the world. And I am against extremism, against terrorism, for moderation. But how many times am I given the equal time that's given to the extremists of any religion?

KING: We'll come right back with more on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE, Christiane Amanpour's special, "God's Warriors" premiers tomorrow night. Don't go away.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): Radical opponents had long waged their holy war against abortion clinics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the hell was that?

AMANPOUR: Bombings, arson, assassinations that terrified many women.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have one confirmed fatality.

AMANPOUR: This bombing at a Birmingham clinic killed a police guard. In the mid-'90s from Boston to Florida, angry zealots murdered seven people, three of them doctors. The violence not only frightened a number of abortion clinics into closing, it also caused a public backlash.



KING: We're back. This question is for John MacArthur, our good friend. In his book "God is Not Great," a major best-seller, Chris Hitchens writes, "Within hours the Reverends Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell had announced that the immolation of their fellow creatures was a divine judgment on a secular society that tolerated homosexuality and abortion." And I don't think they know that. I don't think there's any way they know the divine mind. I think judgment on this world is going to come. It comes now. It comes in a eschatological way in the future as the result of sin and the rejection of God and his truth.

KING: But don't statements like that ...

MACARTHUR: But those kinds of statements are inflammatory.

KING: Don't the Robertsons hurt you?

MACARTHUR: Sure. Sure. They misrepresent -- you know, that's what Jesus basically condemned the Pharisees for, this kind of carping judgment that sits over all of people's lives and society's lives and renders verdicts on them that have finality and that called divine judgment into place. We don't do that. What God does, God does and not all of it is known to us.

KING: Reverend Barry Lynn?

LYNN: I've been on this program with Jesse Jackson disagreeing with him, with Jerry Falwell disagreeing with him, I have no problem with disagreement. But I do think it's important that those of us religious or otherwise, we've got 20 million non-believers in this country that we need to stop the pursuit of political power by people with these very narrow agendas and let us all talk about what the values are that we can live with together.

KING: Christiane, does Jesus come up on your show?

AMANPOUR: Well, of course, through the eyes of the people that we're talking to. But the question I have for the pastor and also for Barry is then how do you explain -- you talk about what should be, but how do you explain, then, the political power of the people who you say are misusing the religion? I think that you said that, that ...


AMANPOUR: ... they're misinterpreting and misusing the religion, and yet they're the ones with the power and not you.

KING: Good question.

MACARTHUR: Sure it's a good question. And the power will never belong to me and it will those who represent true biblical Christianity because the Kingdom advances one soul at a time through the belief in the Gospel in Jesus Christ. Anything is a prostitution. Look, the New Testament says the powers that be are ordained of God. That was the word of God to people living under Roman government, under a Caesar. Don't overthrow that power. That's what God has put in place. We work within that to advance the Kingdom one person at a time.

KING: Barry?

LYNN: See, I would disagree with that. That is a literal belief. Many of us do not have a literal belief in the words of the -- not God written and produced but man written and produced Holy Bible for Christians.

MACARTHUR: Well, there's the huge divergence right there.

LYNN: That's a huge difference. It is a huge divergence, but it's one of the things that makes the Christian community and many of the other communities we're talking about here very diverse and very different.

MACARTHUR: Barry, if you don't believe the words of the Bible, then you can't be legitimately called a Christian because that's all the Christianity there is is what is revealed in the word of God, not the Christianity you can invent outside of the meaning of Scripture.

LYNN: See, but here we go again because some of us would look at -- we're not having a Bible study tonight, but some of us could look ...

MACARTHUR: I wish we were.

LYNN: Well, maybe we should. The ongoing revelation of God to man. Why do people pray? Why do we pray if we assume that everything's known and known if we just read the Scriptures one more time? Many of us, particularly in more liberal Protestant denominations believe that God is still speaking and that that's an important theological point. Some people believe there is no God to speak and never did speak.

KING: Christiane Amanpour, her special, "God's Warriors," debuts tomorrow night, and we'll be back with more. Don't go away.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): Right wing politicians like Geert Wilders, a member of the Dutch Parliament.

GEERT WILDERS, DUTCH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Yes, here we have nine seats.

AMANPOUR: Who fears the Dutch are losing their country to an alien culture. The party he's founded has staked its political future in large part on an anti-Islam platform. He's proposed shutting down immigration from non-Western countries and banning burqas and niqabs, the head-to-toe coverings worn by some Muslim women even though very few here wear them.

(on camera): Why have you chosen Islam as your battleground, so to speak?

WILDERS: Today, more especially in radical Islam is a major threat to all of society. Those are people that hate everything that we stand for, and are proud to use every means possible to kill us.



ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I'm Anderson Cooper. Ahead on 360, tonight, a lot of breaking news. Hurricane Dean is now a Category 5 storm, the most powerful type with winds of 160 miles an hour. We have reporters stationed in the path of the storm. We'll take you there live and we will have all the latest updates on the most dangerous storm of the season so far.

Plus the families of the lost Utah miners speak out, showing frustration over the rescue attempt failures and outrage over the suggestion that their loved ones may never be found. We have all of that, "Raw Politics" and more on 360 at the top of the hour. Now let's go back to Larry.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): A recent poll found that 59 percent of American evangelicals believe Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you give, it may be that you give in an envelope and put it in a bucket, but in actuality, an angel is going to scoop it up.


AMANPOUR: And when Christian Zionists turn out in the thousands to demand that Washington politicians support Israel, the politicians respond.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Greetings from the president of the United States. This letter from George Bush.


KING: What's the role, Dr. Hathout, for the moderate? Where does the moderate play in this?

HATHOUT: Number one, who defines the moderate?

KING: You said you ...

HATHOUT: Exactly. Exactly.

KING: I asked you.

HATHOUT: But this is not what's happening. The market definition of the moderate is not the market definition that we coined. To me, a moderate is one who does not believe in violence, who believes in inclusion, not in exclusion, who is progressive to cope with the dynamics of the world and who is still adores God and the religion.

KING: Isn't the majority, then, moderate?

HATHOUT: Exactly. KING: So why don't the moderates have a bigger voice?

HATHOUT: Because they are screaming in the bathroom that's locked. How many reporters like you will call on me to say what I say? How many times did I appear -- no, I can tell you, you are with the stretch of imagination, the second one.

KING: There are more moderates than anything else, aren't there?

AMANPOUR: Of course there are. Even in the Middle East, in many of the countries we've been to say that is the case, that people are actually moving away from this extremism and that, you know, it is a more moderate reality than an extremist reality.

But the key point is that the extremists, those who are fundamentally committed, are much more energized and therefore much more active and much more politically successful. That's the reality, and that's the question I was trying to ask. In fact, all of you, how do those majorities who would prefer to see peaceful co-existence, whether it be in Judaism, whether it be in Islam or in Christianity, how do they get their voices heard, and how do they act within the framework of the political dynamic that they find themselves in?

KING: Rabbi Hier?

HIER: First let me say one thing. We can't have gatekeepers. One of the greatest tragedies, I think, that prevents moderation is when you'll excuse me for the comment is that when you have a gatekeeper -- nobody knows what's in God's mind. He doesn't have a cell number. Or if he does, it's not connected, and nobody has spoken to him personally. Nobody can say, who's going to be admitted in heaven and who's not going to be admitted. Judaism believes that it ought to be based on deeds, not dogmas.

KING: John?

MACARTHUR: Well, a comment. I think it's happening in the Christian world and it's happening on two fronts. I think there's a real weariness with political Christianity. The Christian Coalition didn't survive, OK, and now there are vestiges of that out there. Pat Robertson, by the statements he made, Jerry Falwell is in heaven, that's an era that's come to an end.

I think there is a weariness with that in the name of Christianity. I think the second thing -- that's among true Christians who have seen it take them basically nowhere and misrepresent the faith.

The other thing is, you have all kinds of people who are not fundamental, biblical Christians now talking like Christians because they see some political ground to be gained by that. I mean, the latest reports on all the candidates now, everybody sounds like a Christian. Everybody sounds very religious.

This is unacceptable because now we've allowed any kind of definition to religion, to God, to Christianity. So I think that part of the Christian emphasis is fading fast.

KING: Hold on, Barry, we'll get your thoughts. We've got one segment left, and we'll be right back.



AMANPOUR (voice-over): The impact of God's Jewish warriors goes far beyond these rocky hills. The Jewish settlements have inflamed much of the Muslim world.

GERSHOM GORENBERG, AUTHOR, "THE ACCIDENTAL EMPIRE": You can't understand the anger of radical Islam unless you understand the conflict between Jews and Palestinians. This tiny piece of land matters much more to people than huge countries elsewhere in the world.


KING: Well, we're almost out of time. Barry Lynn, you wanted to say?

LYNN: Yeah, one of the problems is, if we start to define outside of our own religion anybody who's more conservative than we are, as we just heard, or anybody's more liberal, I'm not really a Christian because I'm not a biblical literalist. Maybe Hillary Clinton isn't and John Edwards aren't because they didn't talk about religion before and now they are as candidates. I think this is the kind of division that does not help us as Christians. It doesn't help Muslims among themselves. It's one of the many things that divides and makes it very difficult to have the kind of dialogue that we might use to find common ground, common values and move forward.

KING: And Christiane, we're almost out of time. We'll have you all back. We'll do many discussions on this.

In fact, I know we're going to do a major program after the show airs so that we can comment on it. Christiane, we have a minute left. What do you hope to accomplish?

AMANPOUR: I hope to open people's eyes. I hope to try to answer some questions. Whenever I went around and people were asking me, you know, what are you working on these days? And I told them about this documentary, whether it was here in the United States or abroad, everybody was fascinated because this is really the topic of our time. I think we have several civilizational issues that we have to grapple with on our watch right now.

One is the clash of cultures over some of these very issues and obviously the environment, obviously the huge poverty gap in the world between rich and poor and I think we are trying to tackle a huge issue and it's one that people everywhere are fascinated by, whether you're religious or not because it has implications whether you're religious or not. KING: Christiane Amanpour, Rabbi Marvin Hier, Dr. Maher Hathout, John MacArthur, Reverend Barry Lynn. We thank you all very much and a reminder, Christiane Amanpour, CNN special, "God's Warriors" will air the 21st through the 23rd, that's Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of this week from 9:00 to 11:00 Eastern and it will preempt us for the next three nights so it will be back on Friday night. We urge you to watch this. We'll be interesting in your comments and we're going to do a follow-up show as well.

We thank all of our guests. We invite you to stay tuned now for AC 360 and good night.