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CNN Larry King Live

Divided House Grills Petraeus On Iraq; Missing Maddy's Parents Now Suspects

Aired September 10, 2007 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the top U.S. commander in Iraq comes to Washington with historic testimony that America has been waiting to hear.

GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDER, MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE-IRAQ: I believe that we will be able to reduce our forces to the pre-surge level of brigade combat teams by next summer.


KING: Meanwhile, at least seven U.S. troops die today, bringing the American total close to 3,800.

And then, news breaks again in the missing Madeleine story. Her parents are back home in England as suspects, given five days to turn themselves into police in Portugal. Mom quoted saying she's being framed. Reports Madeleine's blood was found in a car that parents rented weeks after reporting her disappearance.

Do police have enough evidence to make an arrest?

The latest from England and Portugal, all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Let's get into the big story of the day, Iraq.

In our first segment, the guests are in, in Baghdad Michael Ware, CNN correspondent based there.

In Camp Victory, Iraq, Anderson Cooper, the anchor of "A.C. 360". He will be in -- at Camp Victory all week.

In Portland, Oregon is Lars Larson, the nationally syndicated radio host.

And the nationally syndicated radio host Ed Schultz is in Fargo, North Dakota.

Michael, what's the reaction in Baghdad to the Petraeus/Crocker appearance today?

MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in Baghdad so far -- the reaction so far, Larry, of course, has been muted. It's late in the evening here. It's -- in fact, it's 5:00 in the morning. So the testimony went through late into the night. And there's been very little response from anyone at this stage. Although, I have to say, Larry, it pretty much went to script. There was no surprises whatsoever in the testimony. So I think that everyone here in Baghdad was braced for what was eventually delivered.

KING: Are you saying, Michael, that nothing today surprised you at all?

WARE: No, not in the slightest, Larry. I mean we've heard much of this before from generals Petraeus and his other commanders. We certainly saw them softening this ground, both he and Ambassador Crocker, leading into this testimony.

I mean, I guess that the most striking thing that was the takeout from their combined testimony was that it seemed that the foundation stone now of America's success, wrapped around the surge, is the work with the Sunni tribes -- essentially the deals cut with the Sunni insurgency. This is obviously helping the U.S. forces not only with the fight with Al Qaeda, but to nudge a reluctant Iraqi government into action and to help curb Iranian influence.

KING: Anderson, I know you just got there. You're at Camp Victory.

What's -- what's your feel on this?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I thought it was interesting that, you know, the Bush White House has portrayed Al Qaeda in Iraq as the number one enemy here and, at times, seems to portray the battle here as a fight simply between Al Qaeda in Iraq and U.S. forces.

That is certainly not the message -- and perhaps what, to me, was most surprising in the testimony today is that's not the message we heard from general Petraeus. He certainly seemed to contradict that, although he didn't publicly contradict it. They really focused on the influence of Iran and their effect on sectarian militias here in the country.

It also seems that the mission, you know, continues to change. Before, the definition of the surge was a military concentration on Baghdad in order to provide political security, in order to provide some form of time for national politicians to reconcile. That certainly has been a failure.

Really, the emphasis today was on the success of these Sunni tribes, which Michael Ware has talked about. And it's not clear, really, how much the surge had an impact on that at all, frankly.

KING: Lars Larson, Ambassador Crocker -- did he have anything to offer of a positive nature concerning the political situation in Iraq?

LARS LARSON, TALK RADIO HOST, "THE LARS LARSON SHOW": Well, of course, Larry, because if you can lock down the military situation, then the politicians can get down to their work.

And as for Anderson's assessment that it's a failure, how is it a failure when you get some of the most disparate groups, like the Sunnis, working with the government in Baghdad?

That's a real victory. Anbar was a write-off a year ago. It's not today.

KING: Ed Schultz, what's your feel?

ED SCHULTZ, TALK RADIO HOST, "THE ED SCHULTZ SHOW": Well, I think, Larry, what Americans are going to be taking from this testimony today is that we, as a country, are going to have a major footprint in Iraq for a long time. You can talk about a surge working -- I believe I said on your program back in January after the state of the union that this might not be the last surge. The fact is, you can draw down troops a little bit, but you're still going to have a major footprint.

This is going to be decided in November of '08 and the next president is going to definitely have to deal with this. I don't see any major progress being made. He said what the president wanted him to say -- throw out some hope, throw out some progress and buy us more time.

KING: Michael, do you think he was just aping the administration?

WARE: No, I don't think so. I mean I've always found both of these men who testified today to be straight shooters and relatively frank. And, by and large, their assessment of the situation on the ground does accord with what it is that we experience here.

However, what I think that they didn't really go into is some of the costs of the successes -- decentralization of power here in Iraq; the arming of or the support of armed Sunni groups opposed to the very government that America created; and, obviously, the ongoing rivalry that is increasingly intensifying between America and Iran. That's become the true dynamic of this war now and I think we're seeing a new moment in this conflict being ushered in, with a concentration now on Iran.

KING: Anderson, do you -- is there any light at the end of this tunnel or are we there like ad infinitum?

COOPER: Well, certainly, the -- I mean the thing that has caused the biggest light, according the Petraeus and most observers here, are -- is the working with these Sunni tribal groups. What the future holds for that, though, however, is very open to question, as Michael pointed out.

Your guest said, you know, it's a political success that these Sunni tribal groups are working with the central government in Baghdad. That's simply a misunderstanding of what's happening here. They're not working with the central government in Baghdad. In fact, they have great distrust for the Shia-dominated government here.

In Baghdad, what we're really seeing is a regionalization of these actors. And that's where the greatest success has lied.

What it means for the future, though, there's no way to tell at this point. It, you know, it could be just arming groups for a future civil war or it could be sort of proto local governments, as some observers have pointed out and that could be the real emphasis of moving forward.

KING: Lars, how would you respond?

LARSON: Well, here's how I'd respond. The greatest example or greatest evidence of success today is the fact that before Petraeus and Crocker even testified,, which is the far left of America, takes out an ad in the "New York Times" accusing Petraeus of being a betrayer, a traitor.

This man is a real patriot. This man is a hardworking military man who does his job and they accuse him who does his job and they accuse him of cooking the books. In other words, they're anticipating that there is so much good news in here, that they've got to accuse this man of being a liar before he even gets up on Capitol Hill to give his testimony. That shows the desperation of America's political left, to say that this is a failure before the evidence is even out there.

KING: Would most of America, Lars, agree with them?

LARSON: I don't think so. I think most of America would like to see some light at the end of the tunnel. And I think an awful lot of America believes that anything the American government and our military sets its mind to do can be done. It's the people who can talk us into losing and surrendering, that's where the fail -- the possibility of failure exists.


SCHULTZ: Well, I think the, Larry, is a stark reminder to all Americans that we've had a real hard time as a country getting to the truth. We've got people who are just working underneath Petraeus who have had a little problem about taking the money on the side. And there's been a lot of fraud. In fact, there's been 34 Senate hearings dealing with fraud and abuse in the billions of dollars that are gone in Iraq.

I thought that was an advertisement to tell general Petraeus it's about time Americans get the truth about what's going on in Iraq...


All right...

SCHULTZ: How long is this going to go?

KING: Lars and Ed, thank you both very much.

LARSON: You, too.

KING: And thanks, too, to Anderson Cooper, who will be hosting "A.C. 360" from Camp Victory in Iraq at the top of the hour and all this week. And when we come back, up next, Senator John Kerry and Republican Lindsey Graham join the debate, when we return.


PETRAEUS: The military objectives of the surge are, in large measure, being met.

REP. TOM LANTOS (D), CALIFORNIA: With all due respect to you, I must say I don't buy it.

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: We have spent the last week prepping the battlefield by attacking the credibility of the messenger.

LANTOS: We need to get out of Iraq. It is time to go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all want to come home. But what we want to do is to come home in the right way.



KING: We're back on top of the biggest story of the day.

Joining us in Washington, Robin Wright correspondent for "The Washington Post". Her books "Sacred Rage: The Wrath of Militant Islam."

Also in Washington, Senator John Kerry, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which will hear testimony tomorrow; the Democratic presidential candidate in 2004.

And Senator Lindsey Graham, a member of the Senate Armed Services. That panel will be taking testimony tomorrow.

We'll start, quickly, with Senator Kerry and run down the group.

What was your reaction today?

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, HEARS PETRAEUS, CROCKER TESTIFY TUESDAY: I don't think there was anything new. I think we learned what we've been hearing in the last weeks and expected to hear. I think the most important thing, Larry, was the fact that you had a general testifying as to tactical military gains, but a diplomat and the person in charge of the politics who really could not report on any progress in the one area that is going to resolve this crisis.

Everyone has agreed there is no military solution, so you have to have the political solution. And as of yet, there has been no progress in that direction.

So I think that the escalation of troops has not provided what it was supposed to, though it has had some tactical successes here and there. But they're not relevant to the larger question of resolution, of reconciliation.

KING: Senator Graham?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE, HEARD PETRAEUS, CROCKER TESTIFY TUESDAY: I think a precondition to national reconciliation is better security. There's definitely local reconciliation going on. Anbar is not about embracing democracy. It's not about central government reconciliation.

It is about Sunnis rejecting Al Qaeda, and that's a good start.

I just bet Robin a dinner that there would be a breakthrough in two areas by the end of October in Baghdad. One, there will be a de- Baathification law passed and a local election law passed. I've been over there for two weeks as a reservist. The people are war weary. So I think we're going to have a breakthrough because the Iraqi people want a breakthrough.

KING: Miss. Wright, did you take the bet?


ROBIN WRIGHT, "WASHINGTON POST" AUTHOR, "SACRED RAGE: THE WRATH OF MILITANT ISLAM": I took the bet. The issue, obviously, is that the Iraqi government has not performed in the sense that it was elected in December of 2005. It has not delivered on all the key issues -- de- Baathification, provisional elections, disarming the militias -- that there are enormous challenges it faces. And I think the problem with today's testimony is that for all of the good things that have happened, you have the sense of a startover four years after the invasion. And that's where you -- you run up against the patience of the American people.

I think that they -- they may well find that they will get the support -- that Petraeus and Crocker will get the support of Congress and increasing numbers, potentially, of the American public for another six months. But this is a very tight window. We all said the surge was the last shot. Another six months will be really, really the last shot.

And I think that you'll find real problems after that in maintaining troops and especially if the Iraqi government doesn't deliver.

KING: Senator Kerry, what do you expect to ask tomorrow?

KERRY: Well, I'm going to review some of the testimony -- some more of it, actually, later this evening, Larry, so I can't tell you exactly. But I will focus, to some degree, on the issue of political reconciliation.

One of the big unanswered questions -- to come back to what Lindsey said a moment ago -- Anbar is not an example of what needs to happen in Iraq as a whole because Anbar represents a Sunni local reaction to Al Qaeda beheading the sons of the sheiks and raping their daughters and creating havoc in the community. And they have decided, in the short-term, that within that Sunni community, they are better off working with the Americans -- not with the central government. Anderson Cooper was correct -- working with the Americans locally in order to restore order. But they are being armed. And without the political reconciliation, you, in effect, may now be dividing Iraq in more powerful ways against itself, without a national identity emerging.

And what's happened in Baghdad is testimony to that. When Saddam Hussein was there and the war started, Baghdad was 65 percent Sunni. Today, it is 75 percent Shia. And the British have just deployed to the air base off of Basra, leaving the four southeastern provinces, where you have 30 percent of the population and 80 percent of the oil, to Shia factions under the influence of Iran to simply fight out for the leadership role.

So the question is if that can happen in the south, what is going to happen within Baghdad and the rest of the areas...

KING: Senator...

KING: the Sunni arm, the Kurds remain independent and the Shia remain under the influence of Iran?

KING: Senator Graham, what are you going to ask?

GRAHAM: I'm going to ask what victory would be. I want to know what winning would be. And to me, the central question is Baghdad -- is the war in Iraq part of a global struggle or is it an isolated event?

What's the difference between dysfunctional government and a failed state?

A dysfunctional government is what we have in Washington, but we're still trying. Dysfunctional governments can have hope. They're trying to work through their problems.

Three weeks ago, Sunday, Larry, the five major leaders of Iraq came up with a framework to move forward on de-Baathification and local elections. So I think there will be a breakthrough.

A failed state is what I worry the most about, where the parties go to their corners and they no longer talk to each other and Iran dominates the south of Iraq and you have a war with Turkey and the Kurds, and you have a Sunni-Shia civil war spill out of Iraq.

So it's in our national security interests to avoid a failed state and to work with this dysfunctional government.

KING: And, Robin do you expect more lightning in the Senate?

WRIGHT: Oh, absolutely. I think it will be -- today was rather disjointed, frankly. It wandered all over the place. I think you may see a little bit more focus tomorrow. And I think that you may see, also a little bit more focus not on just the situation in Iraq, but this bigger picture that has emerged that Ambassador Crocker referred to today, and that is this emerging proxy war between Iran and the United States.

The stakes are no longer just Iraq and Al Qaeda within it.

KING: Yes.

WRIGHT: The great problem that we face is the broader war that's playing out throughout the region, not just in Iraq -- between Tehran and Washington.

KING: And Michael Ware in Baghdad, one more question for you.

Do you see a light at the tunnel end?

WARE: Well, what I do see, Larry, is that America has presented before it right now the opportunity to take a decisive moment. I mean, I think the window of opportunity to reclaim what's left of American interests and to, in some way, try and stabilize Iraq and hopefully stabilize the region, is rapidly closing.

The question is, does America have the daring to do so?

And I think the emphasis on the Sunni militia program runs much deeper than Al Qaeda. These Sunnis out there, these Baathists, the men who used to run Saddam's military, first and foremost, they're anti- Iranian. And I think that that is very much a part of what the U.S. strategy is doing here. They're shifting their weight politically to throw some support between these anti-Iranian elements so that they can put pressure on the pro-Iranian government in Baghdad.

KING: Thank you all very, very much.

We, of course, will stay on top of this.

When we come back, the latest in the missing Madeleine story -- is the suspect mom claiming she's being framed?

We'll live to England and Portugal next.


KATE MCCANN: Please, please do not hurt her. Please don't scare her. Please tell us where to find her or put her in a place of safety and let somebody know where she is. We need our Madeleine. Sean and Emily need Madeleine and Madeleine needs us.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within moments of landing in Britain, Gerry McCann once again insisted that neither he nor Kate had any idea of what happened on May the 3rd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GERRY MCCANN, MADELEINE'S FATHER: Well, it's heartbreaking to return to the U.K. without Madeleine. It does not mean we're giving up our search for her. As parents, we cannot give up on our daughter until we know what has happened. We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.


KING: Welcome back.

Portuguese police are apparently handing this case over to the prosecutors, whatever that means. We'll find out as we go the Paula Hancocks, our CNN correspondent in Praia Da Luz, Portugal.

And in Rothley, England is Adrian Finighan, CNN International anchor and correspondent.

Also with us in Salt Lake City is Ed Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted from her home in June, 2002, and then safely recovered nearly a year later. He has become friends with the McCann family and he will be with us for our major panel later on.

But Paula Hancocks, what's the latest in Portugal?

What are -- what does this mean -- turning it over to the prosecutors?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically, Larry, it means that all of the information that police have gathered so far, all the DNA evidence and all the lengthy questioning that Kate and Gerry have undergone will be put into a dossier. And that will be handed over to the prosecutor. The prosecutor then has read through, probably, a tremendous amount of paperwork and decide one of three things -- is there enough evidence to charge Kate or Gerry, or both?

Is there a need to go and find more evidence and advise the police in a different direction?

Or, thirdly, should they tell the police that this evidence simply doesn't stand and they should drop the fact that Kate and Gerry are formal suspects?

KING: So -- and we don't know anything until we know what the prosecutor says, right?

HANCOCKS: Well, we heard nothing official from the police themselves. But Portuguese media and British media -- some are reporting tonight that one of those -- the DNA that was found in the rental car that the McCanns rented about 25 days after Madeleine was actually found, reported missing, they say that that DNA is a 100 percent match to Madeleine. But, of course, there are conflicting reports on this at the moment. This is all coming out in the last couple of hours. We're hoping, on Tuesday, to hear something more.

KING: Adrian Finighan in Rothley, England, isn't this all still a bit speculative? ADRIAN FINIGHAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is, indeed. And the McCann camp have expressed frustration, Larry. The fact that they are now official suspects -- they've got this, as the Portuguese call it arguida status, puts restrictions upon what they can say. They would love nothing more than to come back and answer all of this speculation that's ending up in the media. The Portuguese police investigation, they say, is leaking like a rusty tin bath. You've got all this information that's leaking out into the media.

The McCanns would love to come back and answer some of this speculation, answer some of these questions. But because of this legal status that's been placed upon them, this arguida status, this official suspect status, they can't do that right now.

KING: Are the British generally supportive of them Adrian?

FINIGHAN: They are, indeed. Let me show you the local paper here, Larry.

There you go. This is "The Leicester Mercury." It's today's edition: "Violating Backing for the McCanns."

Unstinting, I think is the way you'd describe support around here, anyway, although it's unusual. You're now finding people -- I was walking around the village today and there are little groups of people that you see chatting on the street. One subject they're talking about -- the McCann family and Madeleine's disappearance.

And with all of this rumor and speculation, although the British press is still behind the McCann camp, you've get all of this stuff coming out from Portugal -- I was looking today to a lady who is a patient of Gerry McCann's. He's a heart surgeon, of course. And she was treated by him. And she was telling me that you just don't know what to believe anymore. There's all of this rumor and speculation. You don't -- it's so hard now to separate the facts -- the very few facts that we actually know about this case from all of the rumor and speculation.

KING: Paula, do you know about the blood in the vehicle?

The question is whether it's 100 percent Maddy's or not?

HANCOCKS: Well, again, Larry, there's conflicting reports on that. We've heard some Portuguese media and some of the British tabloids from Tuesday also saying that it was a 100 percent match for DNA, showing that the evidence the body of Madeleine was in that rental car.

But then, on the other hand, you have many -- much of the media throwing doubt on that, saying that it can't be 100 percent, maybe about 80 percent. And this is something we're really not going to know for sure until this evidence is publicized. And that's not going to be for some time. The prosecutor hasn't even seen this evidence yet, so we're not going to see it for some time.

KING: Ed Smart will be joining us in the next segment. Thanks, Paula.

Thanks, Adrian.

And Ed will lead off the next segment and we'll meet our other guests, as well, when we return.

The McCanns have lawyered up.

Could they fight extradition to Portugal or is that too much in advance?

We really are working on a lot of speculation here.

Geragos, as well, will join us, and former FBI profiler Candice DeLong.

We'll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madeleine McCann has become the face of a global campaign designed to keep her plight in the international spotlight. This "Find Madeleine" music video was broadcast at a rugby World Cup game.



KING: Joining our discussion about Gerry and Kate McCann and their missing daughter, Ed Smart remains with us. We'll bring him into the discussion momentarily.

By the way, as we look at Ed Smart, we are reminded that this young girl may still be alive.

In Miami, Stacey Honowitz, Florida assistant state attorney. In Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, defense attorney. In San Francisco, Candice DeLong, former FBI profiler. And here in New York with us, Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, the forensic expert and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Ed Smart, do you think they're being railroaded?

ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART: I think they are being railroaded. I just have complete confidence that everything that they are being trumped up with, all of the rumors are rumors, and that, you know, they had nothing to do with it.

KING: Stacey Honowitz, they have apparently lawyered up. Does this mean anything to you?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: No, I mean I am not surprised that's when they got the status of being a suspect, that's what happens in Portugal. The lawyer now has the opportunity to really represent them, to go in when they were interviewed and go in to protect their rights. So I am not surprised by any of this.

KING: Mark, are they being assumed guilty?

MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. They are presumed guilty in Portugal at least. It is nice or it's comforting to some degree that apparently in England, that is not totally the case.

But boy, it sure gives you pause when you hear the one person say that even one of his patients doesn't know what to believe. This is a guy who has dedicated his life to saving people and helping people and one of his patients now because of this whirlwind of publicity has her own doubts about his guilt or innocence. That's, I think, one of the most troubling things about this trial by media.

KING: Candice, why are they suspects?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, we have talked about --

KING: With a 4-year-old girl who they don't even know is dead.

DELONG: Right. They don't know that she is dead. Statistically we talked about this before, the vast majority of the time a young child goes missing and/or is found to be murdered, the vast majority of the time the person who did it is an adult primary care giver, and that usually is the parent.

So it is a good place to start looking, and as Ed Smart will tell you, in all of these cases, the parents have to be eliminated in the beginning of the investigation as having anything to do.

KING: But are they looking elsewhere?

DELONG: I would certainly hope. There have been many stories in the media about this case of I think an expatriate Brit possibly living in Portugal with his mother who has a history of violating children, and some other people, but in particular, that other person. So, yes, they are looking elsewhere, but for some reason they now have focused on the mother.

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky, what is your read?

DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSICS EXPERT: Well, this is very sad case. There is a missing young lady. We don't know if she is deceased or not, and clearly, we are looking for evidence. They have to look in the hotel room and see what they can find from that. Now we have this linkage to this vehicle, and we find what we are hearing is blood. And that that blood matches the young lady. So the question is, how do you explain that? Is there any innocent way to explain how we get this young lady's DNA in this vehicle.

KING: So they are a suspect?

KOBILINSKY: Absolutely. I think as Candice said, they look at family members, and anybody who had a close relationship with the child. KING: Ed, what did you say?

SMART: I said, you know, who rented the car before? I mean, who had access to, you know, plant something? I just really, really disbelieve that there is this 100 percent evidence in there.

My understanding from Gerry as I talked with him was they were having a very difficult time trying to take the DNA and analyze it, and that they were having to do further analysis, and that is one of his greatest frustrations is that it was taking so long to try to determine it, and you know, what are they trumping up?

KING: Stacey, if this were Miami and the police had investigated this crime and put together a whole dossier, would they present it to you? Is that the way it would be done?

HONOWITZ: Yeah, sometimes it could come to me directly or sometimes it would go to the grand jury. But what's going to happen is they are going to present the dossier to the Portuguese prosecutor and that individual or that group of individuals has really a workload ahead of them, because of all of the investigation that has gone on so far, and now maybe this forensic evidence. They have a tough decision to decide if there is enough evidence to charge the mother.

GERAGOS: Well, Larry, can I just weigh in for a second? One of the reasons that you have to suspend your belief in some of the reports is that when they start to talk about 100 percent, there is no such thing.

All they do is that they can't exclude you, and then they have numbers, depending upon what the markers are and the multiplication tables for DNA, so this idea that there's 100 percent match just leads me to believe it is one more rumor out there that is probably unfounded and probably does not have, does not comport with what the facts are.

If they start talking about 80 percent, well, you know what? A mother and daughter can share 80 percent of the markers in any kind of a DNA match. So all of this stuff seems to me at least to be a little bit premature.

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky is shaking his head.

KOBILINSKY: Yeah, the parents and the mother would share 50 percent of the child's genetics. And in fact, when you do analyze a stain and do 13 loci, which is typically what is done in the country. I don't know what is done in Portugal, but typically, that can give you a 100 percent match. If it is not the pristine --

GERAGOS: It is not the case.

KING: One at a time.

GERAGOS: It is just not the case. They go to 16 loci and they will never -- there is not an expert around that will tell you that it is 100 percent. That is not the case. KOBILINSKY: I am sorry, I have to disagree with you.

GERAGOS: OK, well, we disagree.

KOBILINSKY: If they are talking about a pristine sample, if they're doing 16 loci, if they get a match across the board and no degradation or partial profiles, there is 100 percent match.

KING: Let me get a break and we'll come back with more on this extraordinary case that has captured worldwide attention. Don't go away.


NICKY GILL, MCCANN FAMILY FRIEND: I think she is out there somewhere and I think that I'd like to think it is a phone call away.

SUSAN HEALY, KATE MCCANN'S MOTHER: It is ludicrous. It is bizarre. We can't understand where this has come from.

PHILOMENA MCCANN, MADELEINE'S AUNT: Madeleine is missing, and we have to strive to look for her. We have to get this investigation back on track.



KING: We are back. We have a phone call for the group. St. Louis, Missouri, hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Hi. Go ahead.

CALLER: My question would be, if I am watching the Madeleine story, and I have been crying and pretty upset. I'm an African- American and I have been pretty much disturbed by what is going on, and my question would be, I haven't seen a lot of emotion out of the mother or the father, and I was just wondering, am I the only one who doesn't see that?


SMART: When I have talked with Gerry on the phone, I have heard a lot of emotion. I have not -- you know, seen him in person, but I have heard a lot of emotion, and a lot of frustration, a lot of, you know, just wanting to find Madeleine in the worst possible way. So I, you know, I haven't seen Gerry and Kate on all of the pieces. They are amazingly composed. But I have heard him in a bad way.

KING: Candice, what would be the theory if parents, forget the McCanns, were to take the life of a 4-year-old -- would the theory be that it is an accident?

DELONG: Usually it is in that not an accident that their back was turned and the child fell down the stairs, but an accident in that they might have been spanking the child or hitting the child or doing sometimes shaking the child if it is a young child in anger, and something happens that they go too far and it results in a skull fracture or something that causes their death.

KING: Stacey, would the fact that they are both physician bode in their favor?

HONOWITZ: Well, I think that is what everybody is having a tough time with, because when you see a case like this and you hear that the parents are both professionals, it is hard to put your arms around the fact that maybe they could have done this to that child.

And I'm not saying of course, because we don't know the evidence is, but there have been cases, Larry, in the past, where you have people that who you would never suspect would do anything like this. And you can say, you really can never judge a book by its cover, so it is hard for the public to imagine that two physicians could ever engage in conduct such as this if in fact it is true that they are involved.

KING: Mark, do you believe that the police are also looking elsewhere?

GERAGOS: Do I believe that they are? I don't know whether I believe that they are. I think that, well, I have been disturbed and most recently about what I consider to be kind of this drum beat by the police to incriminate these two, and that bothers me.

As Stacey says, there have been cases obviously where people either were great actors or that nobody ever suspected them, but there is also just as easily been a lot of cases where they suspected the wrong people, and I remember during the Smart case, there were a lot of people who were pointing fingers in the direction of people in the Smart family at the time.

So, you know, one of the things that I think that is irresponsible of the police and the Portuguese police here is that they should not be letting all of this stuff out. There should not be this steady drum beat or drip, drip, drip of pointing the fingers at the parents.

Because god forbid if they are innocent, can you imagine how they must feel on top of everything else not having your daughter, not knowing what happened to her, hoping she is still alive while somebody is still accusing you of this? It has got to be the worst thing of the world

KING: And Dr. Kobilinsky, is forensics going the play a key factor in this?

KOBILINSKY: Forensics doesn't solve all of the issues. It is going to be very important because you have to explain how her blood got into the vehicle. It could after all have been innocent. It could have been a case of secondary transfer where either Kate or Gerry transferred her blood into that vehicle and it wasn't a direct transfer. Anything is possible.

KING: Vancouver, British Columbia, hello?

CALLER: Yes, I want to ask, has anybody asked themselves with the world paparazzis and tourists, do you think that they could have moved anywhere, any kind of body? And especially 25 days later when they rented this car? They didn't even not only have the European, but they had the American and every country's paparazzi. They couldn't move two feet.

KING: Is that a good point?


GERAGOS: Great point.

KOBILINSKY: I think it is a very good point. And they are really innocent until proven guilty, and they haven't been proven guilty.

KING: Let me get a break and be back with a few more moments and then by buddy, Jack Cafferty will be joining us. Don't go away.


KING: OK. Stacey Honowitz, where do we go from here?

HONOWITZ: Well, we're going to all wait and see what happens. The prosecutor tomorrow or the band of prosecutors is going to go over the 11 hours worth of statements to see if there is any inconsistencies between her statement and his statement.

Remember everyone that they were with that might, their statements were taken, the forensic evidence. I mean, there is a boatload of stuff for this prosecutor to go through to make a decision.

And the last question that came in is a great question, because the prosecutor also has to say, what behavior could be reasonable? Is it reasonable that everybody the world was watching and they were able to hide this body and then transfer it? So these are all questions that the prosecutor is going to have to ask themselves to make a determination as to whether to charge her.

KING: Let me get one more call in. Darien, Georgia, hello.

CALLER: Hi. My question is, who are testing the bodily fluid or DNA against and could it be a sibling's DNA that they found in the trunk of the car?

KING: Doctor?

KOBILINSKY: That is a good question. Siblings clearly have a close relationship with their siblings, but you can easily differentiate one person from another, even if they have this close family relationship. KING: Mark Geragos, where do you think it is going to go?

GERAGOS: Well, I can't imagine -- I guess we could always be shocked, but I just can't imagine that they are going to bring charges in this case.

You know, besides the fact that as the caller said 25 days later, the whole world is there. Remember, on that evening there were people that were there that saw them, that were present during virtually all of the time period. They have got a timeline here that is virtually indestructible.

So it just seems to me like desperation move by the police, and my hope is that that the prosecution gives it right back to them and tells them, you know, enough is enough, and go actually solve this case.

KING: Ed, do you think it is going to turn out all right for your friends?

SMART: I think it is. You know, I think that the police -- one of the things that Gerry really felt is that this whole thing has come to a standstill about six weeks ago and nothing has really moved forward other than trying to focus on them, trying to focus on the DNA, and I really think that, you know, they need to get focused on finding Madeleine, and just, you know, cut this out, and get moving.

KING: Let's hope. Thank you all very, very much. Ed Smart, Stacey Honowitz, Mark Geragos, Candice DeLong and Dr. Larry Kobilinsky.

Jack Cafferty is next with us, he's got a new book out there, "It's Getting Ugly Out There." He's always outspoken. He gets in the ring, makes a punching bag out of the Washington status quo. He is with us when we return.


JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: I have never, ever seen anything as badly bungled and poorly handled as this.

Our leaders lie from us, and steal from us, and do it all with a straight face. They don't think we get it. What a joke. A very cruel, very sad joke.



KING: He is one of the better observers of the passing scene. He is caustic, he is opinionated and he is the author of "It's Getting Ugly Out There: The Frauds, Burglars, Liars and Losers Who Are Hurting America."

He is Jack Cafferty of "THE SITUATION ROOM" and here is the cover of the book. Why did you write this? CAFFERTY: Somebody came to me and said, you ought to write a book and I said, fine, let's put something together. It really wasn't my idea, it was someone else's.

KING: "Publisher's Weekly" said in your book, "his fatherly voice may evoke the comfort of an old fashioned Cronkite era newscast, but newsman Cafferty has made a career of saying whatever he damn well pleases" -- Fair?

CAFFERTY: Well, up to a point. And more so in the last five or six years thanks to the leniency of the people here at CNN, they kind of let me run my mouth and don't seem to get too concerned about it.

KING: Are you happier doing that then when you were a news guy?

CAFFERTY: Yes, because local news has deteriorated to the point where it's neither local nor is it news much anymore, you know? It's mostly satellite feeds and Britney Spears clips and the weather and the ball scores, and we're out of here. So this is a little more challenging.

KING: Did you enjoy kind of coming out, so to speak?

CAFFERTY: Say way? Larry Craig is on tomorrow night.

KING: Did you enjoy taking them on?

CAFFERTY: Absolutely. I do, and in a way it is fun, because it is kind of a chance to get even. We are all taxpayers and we all got slapped around by the establishment, so I can strike a blow for the guy in Omaha who is hoping that his meat packing plant job doesn't get sent to Mumbai. So that part of it is fun.

The depressing part of it is that this country is not what it used to be and I have four daughters and four grandchildren, and I worry about what is going to be there when they get to be our age, my age.

KING: would you say you take no prisoners?

CAFFERTY: Not really. I try to look at the stuff and kind of the like the guy behind home plate, the balls and the strikes. If it's down the middle and it's fair, then it's fair and you let go with that. You don't take issue just to be doing it.

KING: All right. Let's take on some things. You have been highly critical of the Bush administration policy in Iraq. Do you think that anything is going to change?

CAFFERTY: I think the president has done some damage to the country by his decision to go into Iraq. The other day at the APEC summit, the APEC meeting in Australia when the bin Laden tape surfaced, the president said, well, it just goes to show that it's a very dangerous world out there and of course, Iraq is a part of that.

Iraq was never a part of 9/11, al Qaeda was never in Iraq and Saddam Hussein couldn't blow his nose without us knowing about it. They had the country under no-fly zones, and locked down tighter than a drum. I think they used 9/11 as an excuse to go into Iraq, invade a sovereign nation that never did anything to us.

KING: We have a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll. It shows only 34 percent favor the war in Iraq. Look at that, 63 percent oppose it. Does that surprise you?

CAFFERTY: No, it doesn't, because I think that we were lied to about weapons of mass destruction and the whole premise for going in there was baloney. We weren't told the truth.

The American people are pretty much willing to get on board, and President Bush had all of the goodwill in the world after 9/11 if he had been straight up. But he wasn't and when the public found out about that, plus it is not going anywhere over there. Our kids are getting caught up in a civil war, that the country is not going to be that forgiving.

KING: How about withdrawal? That same poll shows 10 percent say more U.S troops to Iraq, 23 percent say keep the same level, 36 percent want some troops withdrawn and 29 percent want all of them out. That is about an even split of 48-50 percent as to whether Congress should set troop withdrawal dates.

CAFFERTY: And Congress is playing politics with those numbers right there. The Democrats don't want too aggressive because what if they get on the wrong side of those 10 percent?

It's all done by opinion polls anymore and nobody is just governing from the gut saying this is right and this is wrong and here is where we are going to go.

KING: In the book, tell me how you broke the book down? How did you decide it? How did you do it chronologically? How did you take them on?

CAFFERTY: Well, there's a little of this and a little of that. A lot of it is the stuff we're talking about here, Iraq, the presidency, Congress, which is a dismal collection of ne'er-do-wells, as far as I'm concerned. And there's some person stuff in there that kind of explains why I have a bit of cynical and jaundiced view of the world. I came from a kind of trashy background, so there's a little of that in there, too.

KING: Really, you had some problems?

CAFFERTY: Both parents were alcoholics, 11 marriages between them. It would have been 12, but my dad killed one of them. I developed a drinking problem myself as a result of it. I was quit 20 year ago, but I was headed down the same road and fought my share of demons.

And I don't put that in the book because I'm looking for a sympathy card, but some of the stuff that I do on the air, my attitude toward politics and authority gets explained maybe a little better by some of that personal background.

KING: Would you go so far as to support a candidate?

CAFFERTY: No, not any that I have seen.

KING: CNN doesn't want you to?

CAFFERTY: No, the only time CNN ever said anything to me is I made a crack about Don Rumsfeld. I called him a war criminal one night. And in six years of doing three or four of these things every day, they have been beautiful. But the Rumsfeld thing they said, you can't do that. So I had to do a little apology for that. But they no, they've never said boo to me.

KING: Do you advance script them?


KING: They don't know what you're going to say?

CAFFERTY: No, a lot of the stuff is kind of like you, as it comes off of the top of the head. I kind of come in, look at the news, and decide what I like.

KING: They don't say to you, what are you going to do today?

CAFFERTY: They want to know in terms of what the subjects are, but they never say this is our position on this or that. I have total freedom that way, never get second guessed by the bosses.

KING: Do you like to work with Wolf?

CAFFERTY: I do. He's great, the Wolfman. I am Wolfman Jack.

KING: Well, as a commentator -- by the way do you miss Karl Rove, Gonzales, Rumsfeld -- do you miss them?

CAFFERTY: It is like throwing out the garbage and best to be done with it.

KING: Thank you Jack.

CAFFERTY: Good to see you. All right, a pleasure.

KING: A book, I'm just about to read it. You can almost automatically recommend it because it is by him. "It Is Getting Ugly Out There," Jack Cafferty. Don't expect a check.

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Later this week, Suze Orman, Rachael Ray and Dr. Phil, Ryan Seacrest and more.

And speaking of big names, Anderson Cooper starts right now and he's live from Camp Victory in Baghdad.