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CNN Larry King Live

Polygamist Warren Jeffs Convicted Today/Interview with Chef Gordon Ramsay

Aired September 25, 2007 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the celebrity chef who can make grown men cry.

GORDON RAMSAY, "HELL'S KITCHEN" AND "KITCHEN NIGHTMARES" STAR: Who the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) are you to turn around and tell me when you work like a pig?


KING: Gordon Ramsay.


RAMSAY: Get yourself out of here. (INAUDIBLE).


KING: In the kitchen, he really turns up the heat.




KING: But now, Ramsay as you haven't seen him, on his alcoholic, abusive father, his drug addicted brother and more.

Chef Gordon Ramsay answers your calls and e-mails.

But first, polygamist leader, former most wanted fugitive Warren Jeffs, was found guilty today of rape as an accomplice for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her older cousin. Now he faces possible life in prison.

Plus, exclusive -- Warren Jeffs' nephew. He says Jeffs molested him as a child.

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

We begin with the Warren Jeffs story. The jury reached its verdict after about 16 hours spread over three days. Let's listen to the reading of the decision.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jeffs, would you please stand as the verdict is read?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the 3rd Judicial District in and for Washington County, State of Utah, the State of Utah, plaintiff, versus Warren Steed Jeffs, defendant; jury verdict, case number 061500526.

We, the jury, duly empowered in the above involved case, find as follows.

Count one, that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crime charged in count one, (INAUDIBLE), rape as an accomplice.

Count two, that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the crime charged in count two (INAUDIBLE).


KING: Our panel in St. George, Utah -- Mike Watkiss. He's the KTVK reporter who has covered this from the get go, done extensive coverage and is producer of the award winning documentary, "Colorado City and The Underground Railroad."

In Salt Lake City is Brent Jeffs. He's the nephew of the convicted polygamist sect leader, Warren Jeffs. Allegedly, he was sexually victimized by his uncle when he was a young boy.

And in Las Vegas, Laurie Allen, who escaped from a polygamist sect at age 16. She's a documentary filmmaker, "Banking On Heaven: Polygamy in the Heartland of the American West." She attended, by the way, much of Jeffs' trial, but wasn't there at the verdict.

OK, Mike, what was it like today?

MIKE WATKISS, KTVK REPORTER, WAS IN COURT FOR JEFFS' VERDICT TODAY: It was, in many ways, sort of a humbling experience for those of us who have been following this story for many decades, Larry. A moment that a lot of people had been waiting to see. A lot of people think that Mr. Jeffs has been the source of a great deal of evil and abuse inflicted, in essence, on his own people -- the women and children in that community. So I think it took all of our breath away. But it was a day that many of us had been waiting a long time to see.

KING What was his demeanor, Mike?

WATKISS: Throughout this trial, I think Mr. Jeffs has sat very sullenly, almost like he was above all this. Usually, I've covered a lot of criminal matters and the defendant tries to ingratiate themselves in some way or another to the jury, making eye contact, smiling.

Mr. Jeffs sat, in many ways, like a sullen child throughout this proceeding, not making eye contact or any overtures to make contact or emotional connections to the jury.

He sat -- he's a very tall, thin man. He stood up very erect in court as the verdict was read today, with virtually no emotion on his face whatsoever.

The young woman at the center of it, Jane Doe, Elissa Wall, a small smile on her face.

But nothing from Warren Jeffs.

KING: Brent, you're his nephew.

How did you react?

BRENT JEFFS, WARREN JEFFS' NEPHEW, SAYS JEFFS MOLESTED HIM AS A CHILD: You know, I reacted with -- I was very happy, you know. It couldn't have turned out any better with how everything went down, you know -- with the jury and how, you know, evidence got brought forth to them and how they deliberated and come out with this guilty -- these two guilty charges against him.

KING: How old were you...

JEFFS: I'm a very happy man.

KING: How old were you when you sexually molested you?

JEFFS: I was around five to six years old.

KING: Later in life, have you spoken to him and have you gotten any kind of explanation?

JEFFS: I have not spoken with him. That was an absolute impossible thing for me to do. So later in my life, I have not.

KING: But you sure carry it with you, don't you?

JEFFS: Every single day.

KING: Laura, you escaped from a polygamist sect at age 16.

Was Jeffs involved in that?

LAURIE ALLEN, FLED POLYGAMIST SECT AT 16; MADE DOCUMENTARY FILM ON JEFFS: No, I escaped from a different polygamist sect. But this verdict is a great victory for all of us who have gotten out of polygamy and especially, though, for the thousands of Americans that are still trapped inside these polygamous sects that are being abused. This sends a direct message to these corrupt polygamist leaders that they are not allowed to molest little girls. And I hope this is the beginning of a major cleanup.

KING: Laurie, how do you explain the polygamist sects' leaders' hold on the followers?

ALLEN: It's mind control, Larry. These people are brought up and raised in this. They don't know anything else. They've had no education, little exposure to the outside world, to the press, the media. They don't even know what their rights are. They know nothing else. And they're told that they're going to -- if they live this -- they live this way or burn in hell.

And this needs to be stopped. We need to get education to these kids and break this cycle of just mind control for generations. It's systematic.

KING: Mike, Elissa Wall, who was the victim in this case, she testified.

Would you say that took a lot of courage?

WATKISS: I think that Elissa Wall -- the county prosecutor here, who is a gutsy young guy named Brock Belnap, he led the charge here in this prosecution, the county attorney here in Washington County, Utah. He characterized her as a pioneer. And she is nothing short of that. There have been women coming out telling stories like Elissa Wall for many years. We have told those stories. In essence, those are the stories that have finally motivated prosecutors and police officers and elected officials to take this action.

But she's an immensely courageous young woman who stood up against enormous odds. Her family is split. Much of her family still inside that culture. She will now be cut off from them. She sent a message in a very eloquent speech after the verdict, saying that she still loves them.

But the bottom line is, is she a hero?

Absolutely. But she stands on the shoulders of other women who have gotten out in Utah and Arizona and really started this -- this revolution. And that's the beauty of this. It's a handful of women. At the end of the day, the men who were involved in the story are merely doing their jobs, at long last -- myself included.

KING: Yes.

WATKISS: But women got out and said hell, no. We're not going to let happen to -- what happened to us, we're not going to let it happen to our little sisters, our nieces, nephews, younger brothers. We're not going to let that happen. They started to raise cane and this is the end result.

KING: Brent, what happens when your uncle goes to jail to the followers?

What happens to the group?

JEFFS: As far as I, you know, I pick up on it, I am sure that someone else will take over. They won't be as much in the limelight, per se, you know, as much as he was. I think it still will carry on, but in a lot more of a mellow state.

KING: Laurie, polygamy was not on trial, but what will the impact on polygamy be?

ALLEN: Well, I hope -- I'm hopeful that this will not go away, that the media -- men like Mike Watkiss will stay on top of this story and filmmakers like myself, because this may die down for a while. But I know there are more charges against Warren. But I -- my appeal is to the American people, to keep a vigilant eye on these groups, because they are abusing children all the time. And these kids have no opportunity.

It's just horrible what's going on. We have the Taliban in America. And there's so many of these groups, Larry, all over the Southwest. And we need to keep a vigilant eye on them and clean it up.

KING: Because I know Mike Watkiss. He will certainly do that.

Thank you.

Mike Watkiss, Brent Jeffs and Laurie Allen.

And you're watching LARRY KING LIVE.

By the way, six jurors from the Warren Jeffs' case speak exclusively to " A.C.

360" tonight, right after this show, at the top of the hour. Six jurors -- their first live interview since the verdict.

But coming up next, the sharp-tongued chef who's the runaway hit on reality TV. Gordon Ramsay is on the cutting edge of the restaurant business. He joins me here on the set to talk about his journey from a school of hard knocks to the star of "Hell's Kitchen".

As we go to break, some heated moments from that highly rated TV show.


RAMSAY: OK, quiet, please.

An order of (INAUDIBLE) with spaghetti with sea bass entree with monk fish on Wellington.




RAMSAY: Let's go (INAUDIBLE) the window, yes?


RAMSAY: Why is that water not boiling there?

Everything she touches she screws. There you go. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry, guys.

RAMSAY: Hey, madam, this not your first time.


No, chef.



KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

And welcome to this show Gordon Ramsay, the acclaimed chef, restaurateur, best-selling cookbook author, star of the new reality show "Kitchen Nightmares," which debuted on Fox last week. Also, star of the reality competition TV series "Hell's Kitchen," opening up a place -- opening up a new place, coming in Los Angeles.

Your first time on this show.

Foodies know you as the creator of a restaurant empire. Multiple Michelin stars to your credit on TV. You're a hard driving task master.

You -- well, let's take a look at how he works.



RAMSAY: The food is bland.


I've eaten here. I don't feel too good.

Oh, my God. Look at them.


I've eaten it.

Can you go and tell them that the kitchen is closed?

OK, here in the kitchen and get familiar with what's going on.

When were these changed last?


RAMSAY: Well, at least the flies look fresh. Oh my god.

Coming, Harvel (ph).

For god's sake. Look at that. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

Jeff, I know you can hear me.

Don't run.

What is this back here?

Who the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) are you to turn around and tell me when you work like a pig? A (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pig.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good-bye, chef.

Good luck.


KING: OK, who's the real Ramsay?

RAMSAY: A good question. I think every chef, not just in America, but across the world, has a double-edged sword -- two jackets, one that's driven, a self-confessed perfectionist, thoroughbred, hate incompetence and switch off the stove, take off the jacket and become a family man.


Is that unusual to the world of the chef?

RAMSAY: Oh, Larry, my biggest problem is I'm too honest. I cannot fake it. I can't -- I can't pretend it. And there's something that hurts inside when it goes wrong. So I get incredibly frustrated. When customers expect perfection and if we can't deliver that, then, you know, we're not doing our job properly.

KING: Now, someone who's hard on people should be just as hard on themselves.

Are you?

RAMSAY: Yes, I don't think I expect any of my staff to do what I wouldn't do. When you think of what we do each and every day, and how many hours we spend in that kitchen, we spend more time together in there than we do with our families. So it's, you know, it's packed with emotions. It's an insecure environment. You come to this industry knowing nothing. You get your certificate from the Culinary Institute of America and you graft. And you can't just read the following and it's going to happen, you become a talented chef. You've got to feel it, live it, breathe it and get obsessed by it.

KING: Are you a born entrepreneur?

RAMSAY: Far from it. No, no, no, no. I just turned 40 years of age. I never expected to come -- it to become what it is in terms of, you know, a $100 million dollar outfit. You don't come into cooking to get rich. You -- I mean I lost myself in cooking. My mom and dad were going through a horrific divorce. It was pretty violent. The upset with soccer, when I had a really bad injury. I needed to do get away.

KING: Were you a good soccer player?

RAMSAY: Do you know what?

I mean 15 stone. I was as a natural left-footer. So that was quite rare in Scotland. So I'd like to think, with two first team games and 25 reserve team games, yes, I was good.

KING: Did you want to be a chef?

RAMSAY: I don't want to be -- it's a bit late if I say no at (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: No, I mean when you were a kid.

RAMSAY: Oh, when I was a kid.

Do you know what?

I wasn't actually hanging off my mother's apron. Football -- soccer was my first love. I suppose the cooking

Side was an accident. When I got released from Rangers, I went to live with my big sister in a council flat. I went to Oxford to study a H&D management course and it was totally boring, not very good.

And then I started work experience in a kitchen. I knew then what they were cooking instantly was wrong. And I thought, you know, at the age of 19, if I'm going to become a chef, then I want to do it properly. But it's simple. You know that more than anybody here today. If you want to become a great chef, you have to work with great chefs. And that's exactly what I did.

KING: Why did you like it?

RAMSAY: Why did I like it?

Two reasons, really. I wanted to put myself in a situation that I never wanted to be faced with a scenario with an ingredient, whether it's a, you know, striped sea bass or the most amazing golden caviar from an albino sturgeon and never know what to do with it. So I got excited. And I went on that mission and I was insecure. I was incredibly hurt on the back of a release from soccer with the Glasgow Rangers. But I took my frustrations out. You know, I went on a journey.

KING: And you had a tough upbringing, right -- an alcoholic father who beat your mother and...

RAMSAY: Yes, very much so. Eighteen different addresses, constantly on the road in the back of a van. Two amazing sisters, one amazing brother, and a mom that has become more than a mom -- just, you know, a backbone of my life. KING: She's still with you, right?

RAMSAY: Yes, very much so. Yes, 62 years of age.

KING: Your father passed away?

RAMSAY: Yes, my father died eight years ago on New Year's Eve.

KING: Did you love him?

RAMSAY: I think there was times in my life that I loved him.

Did I love him, you know, three weeks before he died?

I could forgive, but I couldn't forget. I think when you witness what happens when a man physically destroys a woman, it's hard to -- you know, it's hard to jump over. It's hard to get your head around it.

KING: You think that's part of your personality now?

RAMSAY: Oh, I think everything my father did -- and I'm doing the opposite. So it's not about part of my personality. In a way...

KING: But he so infected -- infested in you, what he did to you, that you react off what he did to you.

RAMSAY: Well, you know my...

KING: I'm being a psychiatrist. I don't know what I'm talking about.

RAMSAY: Yes. No, no. No, no, no. I mean, you know, unfortunately, my brother became a drug addict. And both my sisters, you know, have done, you know, exceptionally well for themselves. So I'd like to think I escaped. But my father helped me in a big way because he helped me to become the opposite to what he was as a father...

KING: That's right.

RAMSAY: And so, yes. I mean it was an amazing experience. But, you know, there's no script. You can't just read the following and it's going to happen.

KING: No, no.

RAMSAY: So, 19 years of age, I didn't have anything to my name and to leave the country and go and study in France was the best thing ever.

KING: Back with more in a minute.

Taking us to a break right now, a glimpse of Gordon's new reality show called "Kitchen Nightmares."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the problem?

RAMSAY: What's the problem?


RAMSAY: That's where I'm starting.

Excuse me?


RAMSAY: You're right. I'm (EXPLETIVE DELETED) nuts. But you've got (EXPLETIVE DELETED) to worry about right now, haven't you?


RAMSAY: You sound like (EXPLETIVE DELETED) listening.


RAMSAY: You sound like you have a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) father.


RAMSAY: What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is going on here?

You're the only (EXPLETIVE DELETED) person here right now who's not pulling their weight and that's not (EXPLETIVE DELETED) good enough. I think this place would run better without you.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Relax. Relax. Relax. Relax. Relax.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where are you going?




RAMSAY: Get out of my face. Come on. (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

Come on. Come on. (INAUDIBLE). I'll hurt you someday.


KING: We're back with Gordon Ramsay. Are you embarrassed?


KING: You look embarrassed.

RAMSAY: I'm far -- I mean far from embarrassment. I went into those restaurants to, you know, be positive and fix it. And tomorrow we'll confirm that, again, with the scenario in New York with Dillard's (ph).

So I'm embarrassed on some of the behavior. And I can quite honestly admit, personally, that I found one of the most disgusting kitchens ever found in my entire cooking career tomorrow night in New York.

And what upsets me more than anything, it's literally 300 meters from my doorstep at the London NYC. So not just amazed, but frustrated that kitchens are allowed to get away with a standard like that today.

KING: Do you own that place, too?

RAMSAY: No, no, no, no. No. The place where -- oh, no, no. No, I don't own that.

KING: It was just close to where you are?

RAMSAY: Oh, yes. No, no. Trust me, even if it was going for a dollar, I still wouldn't own it.

KING: By the way, Gordon has written a very personal, a very powerful commentary about drug -- domestic abuse. And you can read it on our Web site,

It's quite a read, very honestly written.

RAMSAY: Thank you.

KING: We received a number of e-mail questions like this from Brian in Long Beach: "Isn't the way we see you treating people in your kitchens a form of abuse?"

RAMSAY: A good question. And let's be honest, to Brian -- and thank you for the question. Flipping a burger and dressing a Caesar salad, you could do that tomorrow. There's no heat in that. If you're cooking at that level where three Michelin stars and you're aiming for the top, then a pressurized environment is healthy. Don't try to mummify the industry and don't misconstrue that level of, you know, passion for anger.

All I want is I want it right. And whether you're paying $10, $20, $30 or $50 per head, that's our duty -- to deliver that level of magic.

Now, if we were in a situation where I think send the food, the customer don't really know the difference, there's no point. You can't continue like that. So, yes, he's got to identify the difference between that level of integrity cooking in the premier league of restaurants or flipping a burger and dressing a Caesar salad. There's no heat in that.

KING: How has your brother's problems as a drug addict affected you, your business, if at all?

RAMSAY: I can remember back three or four years ago going to rehab to visit him on a Sunday in the middle of Wilshire and then being told personally that I'm a self -- sort of obsessed addict in the way that I'm addicted to perfection.

I disagree with that. But what I'm trying to say is that my level of concentration was selfish to get me where I am today.

With his addiction, you know, anyone using drugs anywhere in the world has a choice. It's not a disease. You start off as a normal individual. If you have some form of hurt or detriment or, you know, an emotional problem, then you can't rely on that to play out your thoughts.

I've had the most amazing time with my little brother. We've had undenied love from the whole family in supporting him through his addiction. Right now, Larry, it's tough love. I cannot continue funding. It's not helping him.

KING: But you write that you can't buy the idea that addiction is a disease.

You also say you can't stand the ethos of rehab.


RAMSAY: Oh, oh, let's make it clear. And my little brother got dropped by my father. That was a big knock in his life. It doesn't mean to say we've got to resolve to taking drugs to deal with those issues. If that is his way of dealing with it, then he needs to have some form of expert help, enter rehab. Once you've paid for nearly six rehabs, seen your mother distraught and frustrated and watching her son waste his life with the abuse of drugs, they have to reach an all time rock bottom that's got no dependency on drugs. They've got to have that self-belief internally that they're strong enough to fight it.

But then they have to be completely absent. They can't drink, they can't smoke, they can't wear aftershave.

KING: How does it affect your work?

RAMSAY: Well, it doesn't affect my work at all.

KING: It doesn't at all?

RAMSAY: Well, he's 39 years of age, Larry. You know, this guy is not a 21-year-old, you know, teenager just graduated from university. So I think you're 39 years of age, you're a man. You should have responsibilities in life.

So, you know, in a way when I think of his addiction and his sentence in, you know, Bali -- in prison as we speak now -- it helps me to concentrate because I don't want to come off that tram line. I don't want to -- I don't want to start pondering or, you know, spending time wasting time.

I'm frustrated for him. But at the end of the day, we got him clean. We funded it. We gave him 110 percent support, love and affection, anything that an addict needs. But he has to find that strength inside.

KING: Gordon Ramsay.

And just ahead, how Gordon's career choice made it hard for him and his wife to have a family.

Plus, more of your e-mails.

Later, a few phone calls, too.

Don't go way.


RAMSAY: I don't want to take these out if they're not ready. I love your (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I've never met someone so (EXPLETIVE DELETED) foolish in all my life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) answering you back.

(CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a crime, Gordon.

You can answer me back (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

RAMSAY: We've got nothing to answer back about (EXPLETIVE DELETED). No one (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


RAMSAY: Every time I tell you something, it's like bite back, bite back.


RAMSAY: What I do want is 50 customers served. That's what I want. It's my kitchen, my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) rules.




(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Yes. (UNIDENTIFIED MALE): The gentleman got served this steak for the lady. How long for the [ bleep ] lamb?


(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): [ bleep ]. Hey, George?


(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): That lamb is rare.


(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): You're [ bleep ].

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Yes, I am, chef.


GORDON RAMSAY, "HELL'S KITCHEN" STAR: Gordon's fine. I don't really have any big formalities. So yeah, whatever.

KING: You know the Beckhams?

RAMSAY: Yes, David and Victoria. Yeah. They're settling down well and enjoying it and having fun. And yeah I mean, it's a big move. It's just a shame that he's injured because there's so much more left in him as a player.

KING: How good was he in his prime?

RAMSAY: In his prime, I don't think there was anyone in the world that could hit a free kick within 35, 40 yards and bend it like Beckham, the way he did. Amazingly talented, 97 caps for his country, and we haven't seen the end of him, 32 years of age. He's got a lot of time left.

KING: How about raising a family and the hectic schedule you have?

RAMSAY: Tough. Really tough. The time I have with the family is little. But it's quality. I've never been one to be home five, six nights a week. We had an agreement when we decided to, you know, try for children; it was an uphill battle, very tough. My wife, a schoolteacher, very disciplined. If you think I'm tough, trust me, and wait till you see when the children are on the naughty step. It's hilarious. So we decided that I'm going to work like a donkey and provide amazing support for the family. She's now started writing sort of family diaries in terms of her cookbooks, brilliant. So you organize it between yourselves. I've never been a hands-on dad. I'm not ashamed to admit it, but you can't run a restaurant and be home for tea at 4:30 and bath and change nappies.

KING: What's it like for a poor kid growing up living in all those different places, an alcoholic father, all those problems, suddenly having all the money you'll ever need?

RAMSAY: I don't mean to sound facetious. It's not really about the money, to be honest. I don't wake up in the morning and sort of worry about the money side. When you come into this industry to cook, you bust your back side off to do well. It was my first real chance of letting go of any hurt in soccer. In New York and Paris is the next ambition. So I sort of make the children eat in normal diners, pizzerias. They don't come to the restaurant, sit there with a fine basil puree. They don't get all the presents that customers send them, we send them to children in need, and they're very humble. You'd be surprised; the kids catch the bus to school. There are no chauffeurs or --

KING: That's good.

RAMSAY: So it's normal, and we have to work at that. Because I'm in danger of having them spoiled, and that's the last thing I want is four food snobs that don't want to sit down to pizza but a roasted mango.

KING: Can you teach cooking?

RAMSAY: Can I teach cooking? I'd like to think I'm a great teacher. I'm very, very firm but fair with it. So yeah. I mean, we're now just over 1,300 members of the staff. They're not chefs now, Larry, they're partners. Yeah, my guys stay with me anywhere from eight to ten years.

KING: You could take someone with no ability and make them a chef?

RAMSAY: Absolutely, definitely. If you've got it in your heart, and you are less personal, and you really understand that it's not about getting sensitive when things go wrong. But I don't want to get in a situation where I start turning around and saying, please be so kind as to pass me the spinach and run along now. It's no different (INAUDIBLE) in the half time playing the Rangers against Celtics it is high-octane, full-on passion. And when it hits the fan, it's going to hit the fan. Don' don't mummify it.

KING: But it can be taught?

RAMSAY: Yes, it definitely can be taught. And I think there's got to be a natural instinct internally and there's got to be that will to want to learn. I remember the first three, four months in Paris, one of the most arrogant, obnoxious cities in the world survived at 22 years age. I had the lowest form of salary standardized by the government. I worked in a cafe on Sunday and then worked like a donkey Monday through Friday for a phenomenal chef. So you formulate a character. You find out a lot about yourself. And that was amazing. But I didn't go around looking for salary. I wanted knowledge.

KING: We have an e-mail from David in Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina. What advice would you give my 17-year-old daughter about preparing herself to attend culinary school? Do you think she should try to study outside the United States? RAMSAY: I mean, inside the states, the CIA, is an amazing setup, clearly. My suggestion to her is to spend a year with a foundation throughout a culinary school and then travel. Learning a culture, understanding a different language broadens your horizons. .

KING: So you were in the United States?

RAMSAY: Foundation and then travel. Kick her out of the house and let her feel what it's like with no money to pay rent, get up in the morning, do you washing, wash your knickers and then go back to work the next day tired.

KING: A little later Gordon will give me some guidance on how to create the perfect version of a favorite snack of mine.

Also ahead I'll talk to Gordon about the special honor the queen hooked up to honor him. Don't go away.


(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I don't know this.

RAMSAY: You don't know? Moldy. That is quite frankly the worst hamburger I've seen in my entire life. Oh, my god. These are my [ bleep ] for lunch. Would you do me a favor?


RAMSAY: Eat that. Thank god I didn't [ bleep ] sat down to eat them. That's not potatoes.



(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Hey Harry, your pan's on fire. Stop what you're doing, put the pan down, and turn the gas off first. [ bleep ] holy [ bleep ]. They're burnt. I won't come into your world and tell you [ bleep ]. They're burnt to me. I asked for four venison's, you've got four in there.


KING: Gordon that was a show in Great Britain called "The F- Word," I believe.

RAMSAY: That's right.

KING: What is the concept?

RAMSAY: The concept is life, busy restaurants where talented cooks come in and run that restaurant for the night under my guidance. We have -- I'm fed up with the fascination of supermarkets where everyone sees things wrapped in plastic wraps, steaks, pork, salads. So we raise turkeys and the most amazing pigs in the back garden and lamb, cross-breed from the French lamb combined with welsh lambs, some of the best lamb in the world. And the children look after them, nurse them, and I turn them to slaughter and then serve them up so you really get to understand exactly where their food comes from to give them that level of traceability.

KING: Isn't it hard to eat the stuff they knew?

RAMSAY: Oh, Matilda, she's 5, and the twins are 7 and Megan's 9. I cooked for them literally three weeks ago and served them something on toast. It was sort of white firm; it was finished with fresh parsley, lemon juice. Matilda said what is that? That's delicious. I said that is the most amazing plate of lamb's roast on toast. She loved it. Had I told her it was lamb's brains before she ate it --

KING: You had three children in vitro, right?

RAMSAY: Yes. Tough. You're excited to be together. You plan a family, and it doesn't happen naturally. You depend on the IVF. We had a miscarriage, which was quite a severe blow for her confidence and for our confidence. I had a very low sperm count on the back of standing in the kitchen for that length of time close to the stove. So we went through the motions. It was something we didn't want to hide. I'm far from being embarrassed about it. And Tilly, Matilda, was natural. It needs the support mechanism of IVF to sort of make it a lot easier for something natural after.

KING: You received an order of the British Empire, officer of the order of the British Empire, from the queen. What was that like?

RAMSAY: I mean, that was nice, and it was for services to cooking. And it's really something I don't want to see really to be honest between you and I, it's nice.

KING: Why?

RAMSAY: I took it gracefully, I thanked mom for it. I wish I had taken my own because the food was something left to desire. And I gave it to my mother. It's in her drawers where she keeps her socks and pants. And you get these kinds of things, and then you pass it on like a hot potato. You don't sit there at night and start staring at it.

KING: OK, Richmond, Virginia, for Gordon Ramsay, hello.

CALLER: Hi, Chef Ramsay. I just, first of all, want to tell you that my family and I are huge fans of your show, "Hell's Kitchen."

RAMSAY: Thanks.

CALLER: And also that your tactics and antics in the kitchen either brings out the best in the people or it breaks them. And I have a son who is currently a cook in an upscale restaurant, and he has a passion for being on "Hell's Kitchen" to stand up to you. And I'm wondering how he would be able to do that through call casting on the Internet. What are your suggestions?

KING: How does he get on?

RAMSAY: OK. If you go to Fox Website, dotcom and willing on to "Hell's Kitchen." tell him to get some experience. What, he's 17, 18?

CALLER: He's actually 20.

RAMSAY: 20. Fantastic. That age, between now and the next sort of five, six years, the most crucial time of his cooking career. Yeah, I'd love to have him on. I don't have any preconceived ideas. And if he's tenacious.

KING: Just say I called in and talked to you on LARRY KING LIVE.

RAMSAY: Absolutely.

KING: And my boy's coming over when.

RAMSAY: Perfect.

KING: Later on, Gordon gives me a lesson on how to build a better bagel. As we go to break, Gordon enjoys a delicacy known as sweet breads.

RAMSAY: The most amazing, and the breads. Extraordinary.

It's been a while since I've cooked sheep's brains.

Like poaching an egg.

How lucky are the kids? I prefer the brains, yeah.


KING: Anderson Cooper hosts "AC 360" at the top of the hour. What's up, Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, "AC 360:" Well Larry, tonight the program meets some of the jurors who convicted polygamist leader Warren Jeffs today; it's a "360" exclusive. We'll get the inside story on the case, the deliberations and today's verdict.

Plus, your unusual fallout. How a speech at Columbia's University president aimed at Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may have backfired. We'll look at that and give you a preview of Christiane Amanpour's one-on one interview with the Iranian leader. All that and while politics are more on "360" at the top of the hour, Larry.

KING: It is Anderson Cooper, 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific.

We're with Gordon Ramsay, the acclaimed chef. We'll take a call from Ft. Smith, Arkansas. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, hello. My question is the aggression that you show in your kitchen towards others, do you think that stems from the aggression that your father showed your mother?

RAMSAY: Good question. I have to say personally, it doesn't have anything to do with the situation with my mom and dad. And I've trained with the best chefs in the world. And whether you're training with some of the best chefs here in America, when things go wrong, you have to be told instantly. So I tried to mention earlier the difference between, you know, cooking, flipping burgers and dressing Caesar salad, anyone can do that. That level of perfection is passion. And it's no different to playing football or playing sports. Things kick off, and it's no different in cooking.

KING: Email question from Lynn in Vancouver, British Columbia. If you were going to prepare the ultimate special occasional meal for your wife, Tana, what would be on the menu?

RAMSAY: What would be on the menu? Oh, she likes fish. And I suppose when you're eating sort of three or four courses, you don't want to feel that you've got to go to bed for three, four days after it. I start off with something like a really nice lobster with a fine sort of basil puree and then maybe for main course something like a pan roasted and striped sea bass on crusted potatoes with sort of tomatoes and basil and a light, light lemongrass vinaigrette. And chocolate with ice cream and that's the kind of dessert you want to take to bed.

KING: She's a beautiful woman. E-mail from Polly, Madrid, Spain. What kind of meal do you look forward to at the end of a really tough day?

RAMSAY: Good question. When you're a chef, you graze. You never get a chance to sit down and eat. They don't actually sit down and eat before you cook. So when I finish work, the first thing I'll do, and especially when I'm in New York, I'll go for a run. And I'll run 10 or 15k on my -- and I run to gain my appetite. So when I get home, I have a really nice simple bowl of pasta and I'll have steamed fish and spinach and I'll wilt the spinach in the pasta so it cooks instantly. So everything's self-contained and vibrant.

KING: Do you please yourself?

RAMSAY: I'm a hard task master. I'm never happy.

KING: Our special guest is Gordon Ramsay. We've had a wonderful hour. But when we come back, my cooking lesson from the master. Don't go away.


(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Is that for rats or mice? We have got rats here.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): All over the place.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): its rat droppings. Look at them all, everywhere.


(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Oh, my good god. Look at the cockroaches. Oh, my god. Look. One in the [ bleep ]. Cockroaches.



KING: Before the program tonight Chef Ramsay and I gathered in the break room off to our right. Well, you watch. One of my favorite foods is bagels and lox and cream cheese. They put out a whole assortment. I have no idea what this is, peas.

RAMSAY: They're called capers.

KING: Capers, green stuff here.

RAMSAY: Chives.

KING: Weird mustard.

RAMSAY: Really nice, wasabi mustard.

KING: Wasabi mustard. Here's how I make it. You take the bagel.

RAMSAY: Yes. We toasted it. See, already you screwed up. It stops it from going soggy.

KING: Correct. They should have tasted it. Is it big in Europe?

RAMSAY: Huge. Absolutely huge.

KING: It's very big here.


KING: I'm using a spoon because we don't have forks, CNN budget. And then I put that down, and I take a piece of lox or whatever they call it.

RAMSAY: OK. Smoked salmon from Scotland.

KING: Smoked salmon from Scotland, lox from down lower east side.

RAMSAY: OK. First of all, I'll never go to your house, just the way you spread that cream cheese, it's so thin, that means you're mean. You're really tight. You come around, you start crying when the string breaks, you take the money out of the pot.

KING: I do not.

RAMSAY: Let me show you really quickly. Spread it on with a little affection. It's a lot easier to go on, but show a little bit of courtesy and have some fun with it and not be so tight.

KING: I'm not tight. I'm having an unusual moment.

RAMSAY: Trust me; you're as tight as a camel's bottom in a desert storm.

KING: What are you going to put on?

RAMSAY: Just kidding. First of all, some really nice chives.

KING: Chives.

RAMSAY: I'm not going to do anything with raw onion, not good for the breath, not good for the indigestion.

KING: Pass.

RAMSAY: Exactly. Small amount of tomato, lightly. And then from there, some capers. But I'm going to drain the capers from that real horrible solution. And look. And then with the salmon, let me get it around my finger, twist, and just put it on. Because I like to think, if you come to my house for dinner, you'd stay at least two or three hours. If I was at yours, I'd be around for ten minutes. Hold on. We haven't finished.

KING: You're ticking me off. In other words, you're saying it has to look good.

RAMSAY: And taste good.

KING: I'm like you, I spread cheese thin. You're going to gain weight.

RAMSAY: I'll burn it off later. You've got a little bit of cream cheese there.

KING: It would have been better toasted. That was fun. We made bagels, bagels are everywhere.

RAMSAY: Toast them, they won't get so soggy.

KING: What do you have coming, Los Angeles, what's coming?

RAMSAY: The London L.A., an amazing. Hotel in L.A., beautiful. Yeah, I mean, authentic, slightly Japanese in terms of the menu. And, again, a bit of a grazing menu, four or five courses without having to feel you can go to bed for three, four hours after it. Light, enthusiastic and really good food.

KING: How far away is it?

RAMSAY: We're kicking off in March '08. I'm really excited because I can flip between New York and L.A.

KING: How many people will you seat?

RAMSAY: We've got 120 seats. I'd love you to come spend maybe an hour in the kitchen. We can progress with that bagel.

KING: Let me cook for the clientele, we'll blow the restaurant. And the restaurant in New York is called what?

RAMSAY: The London NYC. Going exceptionally well, we had a tough opening the first six months. It was, I suppose, more judged from my persona as opposed to the perception. It's going well now. Right off Broadway, the old royal, lovely design. Yeah, I'm happy in New York, but I can't wait to get to L.A.

KING: You'll be hopping everywhere now.

RAMSAY: I'm fit as a fiddle.

KING: Thank you, Gordon.

RAMSAY: My pleasure. Thank you.

KING: Pleasure having him. Gordon Ramsay, acclaimed chef, restaurateur, star of the new reality show "Kitchen Nightmares," also star of the reality competition TV series "Hell's Kitchen."

Before we go, I want to call your attention to a terrific new book, "The Coldest Winter: America and the Korean War." There you see its cover. The writer is an old dear friend of mine who passed away, the Pulitzer prize-winning journalist and "New York Times" best- seller, David Halberstam. David was killed in a car crash this past April, 2007 five days after putting the finishing touches on "The Coldest Winter." The book is brilliantly researched, it's powerfully written. One of Halberstam's finest achievements. It would have been great to have him on the show to talk about it.

The second best thing is to read it. "The Coldest Winter," a worthy legacy for a great reporter and one of the must-read books of the year.

Finally, head to our Website, Download our latest pod cast with Kathy Griffin and be sure to participate in our Gordon Ramsay quick vote or read Gordon Ramsay's special commentary on physical abuse. It's all at the

Tomorrow night, Jenny McCarthy discusses her son's autism.