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CNN Larry King Live

Dr. Phil: Is "Dog" Sorry?; Oprah's School for Girls

Aired November 08, 2007 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Dr. Phil -- he's heard "Dog" beg for forgiveness.

DUANE "DOG" CHAPMAN, THE BOUNTY HUNTER: I'm very sorry for using that word. Please don't think any less of me.


KING: Does he deserve it?

And what about Oprah's apology for the school scandal?


OPRAH WINFREY: This has been one of the most devastating -- if not the most devastating -- experience of my life.


KING: TV's top therapist weighs in.

How is sorry working for them?

The doctor is in, taking your calls, too, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

He's a good friend. He's made many appearances on this program. He's also hosted this program. He's even surprised host this program on one of my birthdays.

He's Dr. Phil McGraw, now in his sixth season of the highly rated daytime talk show that carries his name. He's the author of six number one "New York Times" best-sellers.

We're going to talk about a lot of things tonight. But in the opening segments, we're going to concentrate on our show last tonight and the show he's going to do tomorrow. Tomorrow, he has a special show about "Dog," Duane Chapman, the bounty hunter, and what happened to him over the use of the "N" word.

We'll be playing some clips from that interview and getting your comments.

But what's your overall look at this?

DR. PHIL MCGRAW: Well, first off, we do have a show airing tomorrow about the state of racism in America.

I mean is progress a media phenomenon or is it really happening on the streets, in the trenches, in the neighborhoods, in the South and in the North or is it just something that's kind of talked about a lot in the media?

We do talk about "Dog" and the situation that was involved in. We called and asked him to come on the show. We got every excuse you can possibly imagine from his people.

Oh, you didn't call us soon enough. Oh, yes, we did. We called the day it broke. Oh, we need to talk to the network and see what A&E says. We talked to the network and they said you can do whatever you want. We'll give you clips from the show. We'll help you any way that we can. And then they said, you know, we just don't know what is going to be asked of him over there because, you know, Dr. Phil asks hard questions. I had Reverend Al Sharpton on the show. I had the Bishop T.D. Jakes on the show. I had the mother of the girl that he was disparaging in the phone call on the show. We had one of the correspondents, Jeff Johnson, from BET, that's been involved with NAACP for a long time. We had Naji Ali on there. What better chance?

He says I want to talk about this, I want to get it out there, I want to deal with this.

So, fine. We've got African-American community leaders. We've got the mother. And they say oh, you know, we're just nervous about it. We don't want to come answer the questions.

I mean, come on, what's that about?

KING: He set no pre-conditions here.

Anyway, he sat down last night.

Let's look at some of what he said, and then I want to get your reaction.



D. CHAPMAN: I've been here several times sitting in front of you. Tonight, it felt like I was coming to the electric chair.

KING: Really?

D. CHAPMAN: I'm sorry -- to tell you personally, first of all, I'm very sorry. I know you had, also, a lot of faith in me. I'm very sorry for using that word. Please don't think any less of me. And I'm going to fix it. A way to fix this and where it would never happen again and, you know, how sorry I really am to say that. And try not to use any excuses why I would have said it, but to never say it again. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Dr. Phil will be devoting his show to it tomorrow.

What's your reaction to that?

It seemed sincere.

DR. PHIL: Well, look...

KING: You're a better judge than me.

DR. PHIL: Well, one of the things I always look at is whether somebody is sorry for what they've done or sorry that they got caught doing what they've done. And I think there's an element to that both ways here.

But I'll tell what bottom line, I think. I don't think that Duane Chapman is a racist, to tell you the truth. I don't think that. I would have said that to him if he had come on the show and faced the leaders that we had there that had questions for him. I think what he is, is highly insensitive. You know, he says I used this word -- and it's not -- it's not just a word, it's the attitude that goes with it. It's an insensitive attitude. I don't think he's a racist. I really don't think he means what he's saying in a derogatory way. And I know there will be a lot of people that disagree with me, because there was such a rancor in what he was saying in that tape. And I could argue both sides of that.

But I think it's really more a matter of insensitivity. Look, this is a guy that has a seventh grade education. He grew up without a lot of exposure to some of the things that might have triggered his thinking.

But I think he's very intelligent. I think he's very industrious. I think he's a very hardworking guy and I don't think he's an evil guy. And I'll tell you what else I think. I don't think they should cancel his television show. I think this is a guy that should own up to what he's done. I think he should step up to the wrong that he's done and then I think he should put that behind him, hold himself to a higher standard and move on.

So I basically support him having another chance.

KING: A very strong statement.

Now, you have always discussed family effect. Now, the incident obviously affects "Dog's" " family.

Let's look at what he says about what his wife said to him.


D. CHAPMAN: My wife is very ashamed. I mean she's, you know, as far as being the big mouth in the family, it's usually Beth. You know, I'm like usually, honey, you know, slow down. And she's like you're out of character, you know?

You -- I can't believe -- and today she said you have shamed the family. And I'm like, you know, I'm very sorry. And she's like, big daddy, then prove it. So I'm trying to prove it.


DR. PHIL: Well, he will or he won't. And I mean one of the things that bothered me most about this, you know, first off, I've got real issues about the fact that this was a private conversation made public. I didn't think that should happen here. I didn't think it should have happened with Alec Baldwin. I think there are times and situations -- and you know I've been involved in these things.

I think that there is a real problem in this country with a violation of our privacy. And I don't think that conversation should have been made public. And what bothers me is what's going on with the father/son dynamic here that a son would go -- attempt to -- he's got to know -- I think the rumor is 15,000 bucks that the kid got for this. And in so doing, may well have destroyed the entire family's livelihood over $15,000.

Now, if he had an issue with his dad, look him in the eye and say it. But I wonder what's in the family dynamic that a kid would go do that and destroy his whole family.

KING: Here's the other -- what the other son, Christopher -- he joined us on the show and Tucker didn't.

Here's what Chris had to say.



CHRISTOPHER HECK, DUANE CHAPMAN'S SON: I don't think that Tucker understands the kind of devastation this is bringing to our family and to my father and to my dad's heart. And that's why I'm here, is to help my dad and let people know that this is not "Dog". "Dog" is a good man. He has many followers out there.


KING: Christopher also took money when he got out of jail...

DR. PHIL: Yes.

KING: say things that he said he didn't mean.

DR. PHIL: Yes. That's what I'm saying. I mean there's something about that family dynamic that I think they need to pay attention to. I don't know what's going to happen here, whether he's going to be able to get back on the air and continue to lead his family and make a living for his family. But I think there's a point at which you've got to sit down and say what's going on here that I am -- that my kids are willing to sell me out for a mere pittance? I mean that tells that me there's a lot wrong in that situation, and I hope he addresses that. I would help him address that. I truly would.

You don't ever stop parenting your kids -- I don't care if they're adults or not -- you don't stop parenting your kids. And it's still going on in this family and it needs to go on.

KING: You'd work with him if he...

DR. PHIL: I would. I don't have anything against him. I don't know whether he was involved with his people giving us all of these excuses and that sort of thing. But I think when a guy stands up and says I want to be accountable, I want to look people in the eye and answer this and you bring Al Sharpton and T.D. Jakes and Aji Ali and Jeff Johnson and the mother of the daughter that he disparaged -- that has now become national -- I would think he would take an opportunity to look that mother in the eye and say, hey, I said it was about her character. I'm sorry I said that or here's what I mean or whatever. I mean, come on, you've got to step up and own it.

KING: Dr. Phil is our guest.

By the way, if you missed our "Dog" the bounty hunter interview last night, you can download it. It's available at or on iTunes -- "Dog," the bounty hunter, in his own words -- an emotional, powerful mea culpa. Download it at or iTunes.

As we go to break, here is a preview of tomorrow's "Dr. Phil."


DR. PHIL: We invited "Dog" the bounty hunter to be here. We told him, Reverend Sharpton, that you were going to be here; that you, Bishop Jakes, were going to be here; that Monique's mother was going to be here; and this was the opportunity for him to come and talk and ask questions. And he declined it.

In fact, I think he ducked the interview. His people said well, I don't know, we don't know what you're going to ask him. We don't know what you're going to say. Well, you don't know what I mean going to say, but we did know what you did say. And this was the opportunity for him to come here and answer these questions.




DR. PHIL: I've got here a list of your recordings as recently as 2006 from "Act A Fool." And I don't know -- you can't read that here, but... (LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm going to tell you what -- I'm going to tell you...

DR. PHIL: Well, it's -- well, let me just tell them what it says. It says I could give a (EXPLETIVE LANGUAGE) about an (EXPLETIVE LANGUAGE) got say about me.


DR. PHIL: And in 2005, in the record "About 'dat (ph)," (EXPLETIVE LANGUAGE) hear this -- I want (EXPLETIVE LANGUAGE) to mug (EXPLETIVE LANGUAGE).


DR. PHIL: What -- what -- what -- what's up with that?



KING: Last night, we started a quick vote on The question was, "Do you think "Dog's" " show should be off the air?"

"Dog" said he'd be happy if 90 percent voted no. Well, we've kept the vote up, and with over 117,000 votes, 87 percent have voted no -- meaning "Dog's" " show -- they want "Dog's" " show to stay on the air -- 87 percent.

Here's a clip, Dr. Phil, of "Dog" talking about his feelings toward his son Tucker, who brought this whole thing to light, who taped him and gave the tape to "The Enquirer".



KING: How angry are you at Tucker?

By the way, did you call him or him call -- he call you on that?

D. CHAPMAN: That day, I think I called him. Yes, sir.

KING: How mad are you?

D. CHAPMAN: Well, I'm glad you said that. You know, I went to the Lord and said, you know, Lord, forgive him, because he doesn't know what he's doing.

You know, how can you -- how mad can you get at your own kid?

You can't hate him. You can't hate him. I'm disappointed and wonder where -- did that -- did that traitor stuff come from prison?


KING: Is that strange to you, Dr. Phil?

DR. PHIL: Well, it's very strange to me. I think that, you know, this is...

KING: And the son tapes you.

DR. PHIL: ...this is the second son that has done this. And I think that is a sad thing for Duane to have to deal with. And, again, I think it's terrible that a son would do that to a father. And I think it's terrible that we have media out there that will take that and exploit that.

I think private conversations -- where there is an expectation of privacy and a private conversation between a father and a son -- could and should remain private. Now, that doesn't mean that what he said in the conversation is OK. And once it's out there, you have to deal with it. But I have never heard him say that in public. I've never seen him expose that attitude on the air in anything I've ever seen.

Look, he grew up on the streets. I grew up on the streets a lot. The language out there is rough. The language out there is tough. And I think he knows it's one way one place and somewhere else the other. And I think his son got him at his worst moment.

And, you know, who among us wants our private conversations to be broadcast, whether it's with your wife or your kids or your parents or whatever?

I think that's terrible. I think it's absolutely sickening.

KING: We have an e-mail from Kerry in El Paso, Texas: "How do you think Mr. Chapman should explain the situation to his own younger children? They're probably hearing all kinds of things at school. What's the best way for him to approach it with them?"

DR. PHIL: I think this is a great opportunity for him to recognize that children learn what they live. I think it's a great opportunity for him to sit down with them and say I did something I shouldn't have done. I was insensitive in my language about other people and it causes pain and it causes hurt. And don't you do that. I want to be a good example to you. And if I've been less than a good example, I want to apologize for that. I want to set the record straight. Don't do what I have done, because it hurts innocent people.

KING: Another e-mail from Tammy in Columbia, Missouri: "Why is it OK for blacks to use any "N" word, but when a white person does it, they feel offended?"

DR. PHIL: Well, there are a lot of ways that you can answer that question. But I was asking Master P about that...


DR. PHIL: the clip that we looked at when we came back. And Master P, by the way, is a terrific guy. I think he's a bright, energetic, forward thinking guy. And when I asked him about that, he said, "I am wrong for doing that and I will not do that again."

And he just did and album with his son, Little Romeo, that doesn't have one profanity in it -- one racial comment in it whatsoever. I think he's really believed that it's time for him to provide leadership for that. He came on the show. He answered questions about that in a very honest and good-natured way. And I think he is calling for other rappers -- other artists to step up and take that out of their vocabulary, take it out of their lyrics and find out when they do, people will respect them for it. They won't lose record sales when they do that. I think they'll gain a market. I think they'll gain an audience and I think they'll gain respect.

It's not OK for them to do it.

KING: We're going to take a break.

And when we come back, we'll have a little more on "Dog" and then get to the Oprah situation. Then, lots of other topics.

We want to go back real to last night's show with "Dog". He talked about a story his son Chris Heck sold to the "National Enquirer" in June. "Dog" claimed "The Enquirer" told Chris that they didn't care if it was true or not -- they just wanted a destructive story about his dad. "The Enquirer" contacted us today, acknowledging they paid Chris for that story, but denying "The Enquirer" encouraged or sanctioned him to lie. "The Enquirer" also gave CNN a copy of what appears to be a lie detector test taken by Chris. The test questions were about the information that he gave "The Enquirer". The copy states his answers were truthful. Chris claimed on this show -- and continues to claim -- the results were inconclusive. We contacted the company that conducted the test. They had no comment.

And none of this has anything to do with the topic of late -- the tape of "Dog" using the "N" word. That was sold to "The Enquirer" by "Dog's" " other son, Tucker.

We'll be right back.



DR. PHIL: You're either that insecure...


DR. PHIL: ...or you're that arrogant, I mean, to think that this show is all geared up to go against you.

Do you think you're boring -- the real you is boring?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm probably boring, but I think I'm evil.

DR. PHIL: And I didn't hear one shred of remorse.

If you are intellectually superior then, therefore, I am intellectually inferior.


KING: That's "Dr. Phil" at his best.

That show is in its sixth year.


DR. PHIL: Thanks.

We've been at it a long time, haven't we?

KING: And six number one best-sellers, as well. And he's got another book...

DR. PHIL: It's like the blink of an eye with what you've been doing, though.

KING: Yes.

DR. PHIL: What have you been at this 150 years?

Is that...

KING: CNN, 22.

DR. PHIL: Yes, there you go.

KING: Do you think the word "N" word is racist in and of itself?

DR. PHIL: Well, I do. And it's not just that it's those letters in that combination. It represents an attitude. It represents a condescension. It's -- it comes with a lot of emotional baggage. And when you say that, I think in most contexts -- and I may -- there may be some context in which it can be actually a term of endearment among colleagues, friends, teammates or whatever -- but I think in 99.9 percent of the situations, I think it's emotionally loaded. I think it's hurtful. I think it's painful. And I think it's a negative thing.

KING: "Dog" has truly made something out of nothing, out of what his life was like as to what he had become. He talks about that.



D. CHAPMAN: They know that I've worked my whole life to be someone. I really was a nothing. I really was a convict scum. I went to prison in my 20s for a murder I didn't do, but I sat in a Texas penitentiary. Anthony Robbins helped like remold me. I had a dream to become a performer and to make people smile and laugh. I really had a goal to do something. These guys are tearing me down, trying to destroy me.

For what reason?

To sell papers?

I would never want to threaten anybody, but get off of me. I'm not racial. Go on to someone else that might be.


KING: Can he overcome this?

DR. PHIL: He can overcome it, but he's going to have to be honest and he's going to have to be willing to answer questions from people that are affected by this. I mean he's going to have to be able to talk to people in the African-American community. And he's going to have to start with -- you know, he's saying they're trying to destroy me. They didn't start this. He started this.

I don't like the tabloids. There's nothing about them I like. I think they're...

KING: They've been rough on you, haven't they?

DR. PHIL: Oh, they're on me all the time. I'm on one of the covers this week, supposedly having racial strife with my wife because I'm jealous of her.

KING: Racial strife?


DR. PHIL: No. No. I'm having -- that we're having marital strife, not racial strife...


DR. PHIL: ...because I'm jealous of her.

And I mean how ridiculous is that?

You know Robin. You know me.

KING: She's sitting right over there.

DR. PHIL: She's sitting right over there. We've been married 31 years. But...

KING: Wait a minute. I think that (INAUDIBLE). "Dr. Phil Divorce Blow Up."

DR. PHIL: Well, that's it. Yes. I mean I...

KING: "The Globe."

DR. PHIL: I hate to even show the name of the paper.


DR. PHIL: No, you can show the -- you can show the headline. That's a pretty good picture of me, actually. But, you know, I hate to advertise that newspaper because they just make -- that's just totally made up. I mean there's no truth in this. Absolutely untrue. I never respond to tabloids if they call and ask for a question. I don't ask about it and I...


DR. PHIL: And I understand that...

KING: But what does he do?

How does he recoup?

DR. PHIL: At this point, he has to answer the questions and he has to continue to say I've simply got to make a change. That's wrong.

Should he be destroyed over this?

Should his show be taken away from him?

Should he be sent packing?

Actually, I don't think so. I think what he needs to do is show that he can admit that he's wrong, step up and actually do some good with that. And show, look, I've learned a hard lesson here and let me teach it to those who look up to me, those who admire me that maybe do the same thing I do. Let me say, that that's wrong.

I think he could actually turn this into a positive for a lot of people that might look up to him.

KING: One more e-mail and we'll close out this topic and move to others. Mike in San Jose: "How much do you think "Dog's" time in prison had to do with his vocabulary? He may have picked up some bad habits in prison, where they use hurtful words like the "N" word."

DR. PHIL: He knows the difference between right and wrong. You know, look, we learn what we live. We learn what we're exposed to. And I have no doubt that this kind of language is more common in the world that he's grown up in than if he had grown up in some other culture or some other segment of our society.

He's a grown man. He knows the difference between right and wrong. He just needs to say that was wrong, I'm going to require more of myself and I am going to be an open book. I'm going to be transparent about this and if you want to chase me down and try to shove a mike in my face or try to sneak up there with a mike, you're going find it boring, because I'm not going to do that.

He can make that resolve. He can move on and he can go forward with it. KING: (INAUDIBLE).

DR. PHIL: But he's got to admit that it is wrong, that there's not an excuse, that he's not a victim, own it and then move on.

KING: So you're saying, in a sense, he could turn it around and make life better?

DR. PHIL: Well, I think he can use this -- this circumstance, this event in his life. There are a lot of people that admire him. There are a lot of people that are fans of him. He came from nothing. He did create something. A lot of people look up to him for that. Use that platform to give a good message. Give a solid message and move on.

KING: Our guest is Dr. Phil.

His old friend, Oprah, had some problems down in South Africa. That's our next topic.

Don't go away.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An emotional Oprah Winfrey is speaking out for the very first time about the abuse scandal at her school for underprivileged girls in South Africa.

WINFREY: It has shaken me to my core.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Oprah is tackling the fallout from claims that a dorm matron at the Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy for Girls allegedly did the unthinkable -- abused some of the girls in her care.

WINFREY: I am a momma bear when it comes to protecting my children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, the humiliated suspect faces charges and an angry Oprah is promising the world that she's going to clean house at her school.



KING: Our guest is Dr. Phil, sometimes host of this show, a frequent guest on this program, always good to have him. And now, we move to the topic of Oprah.

Who, you told me off the air and we will discuss on the air, you have counseled in this current crisis in her life.

DR PHIL MCGRAW, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, we've talked about this. And you know, I don't think Oprah needed any counsel because she is a woman of such deep resolve about what she is doing with this school, I think she was absolutely devastated by what took place there. And let me tell you, she has been an absolute model, which is why I say she doesn't need counsel. She is the counselor, she is the example here.

When she set the school up, they really did their homework, they really invest vetted this thing and put together such a great staff there. And their focus was protecting these girls from predators outside the school. But, what we don't realize sometimes is that those most dangerous comes from the inside-out and that's what happened here.

KING: What was she getting from you? What does she want? A shoulder?

MCGRAW: Well, you know, she was taking a lot of flak in the media. People had asked me to -- if I would weigh in and talk about this, just as you're asking me now. And the "Today" show asked me to come on and talk about this, and I talked to Oprah before I did that. You know, we talk frequently and then so I said, you know, they want to talk about this. And she said: I wish you would do that. I want you to do it. I'd like for you to go speak for me at this point because I cannot talk. Because at that time, charges had not been filed, arrests had not been made and people were saying: why won't she talk about this? She was chomping at the bit to talk about it and they said: Oprah, please don't, you will jeopardize the investigation, you will cause us to not be able to go forward the way we want to go forward. So, she couldn't do it, but I could do it.

KING: She held a news conference. Let's watch a little excerpt.


OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: Knowing what I know now, the screening process was inadequate. Although, I do know for every person that is hired at the school, there is both a criminal and civil background check, but I was not directly responsible or in charge, although the buck always stops with me, of hiring the dorm parents, but we are going to redefine what that position should mean and what the qualifications for that position should be.


KING: How is she dealing with it emotionally?

MCGRAW: Well, first off, she's being too hard on herself there, because I have told her and I've told others that even someone with my training, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a social worker cannot always see around corners for these people. They are slick, they are good, they are manipulators, it's what they're all about. And you know, she's saying it was inadequate. Based on results, it was inadequate, but it was absolutely gold standard in terms of the screening.

And at this point, people are saying, you know, has this deterred your commitment to this school? She has redoubled her commitment to this school, if that's possible, because she is so passionate about giving these girls an opportunity, a leg up in this world to overcome such terrible circumstance. It absolutely destroyed her. I mean, it was devastating to her. She told me that, she said her mood was sorrowful. And she said: it was the most devastating thing that ever happened to her in her life. And you know, that's a lot to say because there have been some tough times in her life.

KING: And she did score a point on the upside that 15 students came forward.

MCGRAW: Because she went in and made -- you know, so often, children that are subjected to this kind of abuse, have a feeling of guilt and shame. She went in, took the principal off the grounds, took everybody that could possibly have any leverage over these girls off the grounds, brought in an international investigation team, and made it absolute just bright light open, no guilt, no shame, no recriminations, come forward and talk about this, you will be received with open arms, comfort and understanding.

And so, in that environment that she created, they were able to come forward and talk about it so the healing could begin. And now, the psychologist, the counselors, the supporters are in there helping not only those students directly affected, but those that watched this take place so they can see, we can talk about this, there is an accepting system.

KING: Do you think because she is an icon, that people and some of the things we discussed, others, some of the tabloids, want to knock her down? They're looking for things?

MCGRAW: Well, you know, it -- what sells papers, you know? A name, a face that sells papers is going to be in the papers. That's why you see Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes there in. That's why you see Oprah in there. You get someone that has high reconcilability, that's who they're going to write about. They're not going to write about the guy at the 7-Eleven. You're not going to see him on the cover of the paper if he's involved with something like that.

So, you know, there is that mentality in America, build them up and tear them down, build them up and tear them down. Oprah is not perfect and she -- you know, that school is not perfect, but I tell you what, it comes close. And it's absolute gold standard for not only how these things should be set up to begin with, but how they're handled when there's a problem.

You always get lawyer speak, corporate speak. You didn't get that from Oprah. She went in and said, I don't care about liability, I want to know what happened here, I want to bring in independent investigators and help these girls.

KING: Will the school recover recover? Will future parents send their children?

MCGRAW: I don't think there is one question in the world that this school will thrive, that this school will continue to build and grow. And I think so many of the parents there have such terrific respect for what Oprah has done and how she's responded to this.

I don't think they expect her to see around corners, to be perfect. And I think so many parents have stepped forward and thanked her for her candor in this, thanked her for her pro-active actions in terms of setting up safeguards in the future. I think the school is terrific.

And look, everybody knows Oprah and I are good friends. I don't pretend to be objective about this, but I know her well, as you know, I've known her for, gosh, I guess, like 12 years, now. And I tell you what, she's good people, there's just no two ways about it.

KING: We'll be back with more with Dr. Phil. What's Dr. Phil think about Britney and Lindsay and O.J. and more? All ahead, don't go away.


KING: We're back with Dr. Phil. By the way, a quick aside, Dr. Phil and his lovely wife are the co-chairmen of Toys for Tots.

This is your second year in a row, right.

MCGRAW: You're right, our second year in a row. This is all about the United States Marines. They're the backbone of this thing and this is their 60th anniversary, I believe it is. And last year, they asked us to get involved, to raise the profile and use our platform to draw attention to it. All together we were able to collected 19 million, 200,000 toys distributed to almost 18 million kids. So, 19 million toys, 18 million kids, but there were still kids left without toys. So really, if there's a Toys for Tots campaign in your community, do it. Us it, give money, give toys...


Ho, the Marines, they're fabulous.

KING: OK, Britney Spears, seems to dig herself out of trouble. You said, do you think she's in serious trouble, maybe needed to be committed. In fact, back in October, you said a few things on this program. Watch.


MCGRAW: What she needs to do to get these kids back is make eye contact with this judge, say: I get it, I totally get it. You given an order, you write a motion, it will become my to-do list. I won't do this because you're making me do it, I will do it because I want to be the best possible mother I can.

She's to look at it as a to do-list, show this judge she respects the authority that's there and do the things that she needs to do to get herself back on track, and that means sobriety, focus on the kids and step out of the limelight.


KING: Now, she is a talent. What's her problem?

MCGRAW: Well, you know, I think she got so much so fast. You know, she got famous when she was like 15, 16 years old and at that point, your whole world changes, your value development changes. She has some assets here that a lot of these young stars that are in trouble don't have because she's got family that is solid. I mean, her mother, Lynn, who I know, is a solid down-to-earth woman with good values. But, you've got to have access to them.

At this point, I think you've go somebody out there with a 15- year-old mentality with way too much money, way too much influence, and now, I mean, running around in front of the paparazzi, doing the idiotic things that she's doing, I mean, that's like the popular girl in high school. It's just we're in Hollywood high out here and you get addicted to that sort of thing. And I worry about her safety and I worry about those children.

KING: What does it do to the kids?

MCGRAW: Well, I think that there's no question that the children suffer. What children do learn what they live. You want a mother that is there, is plugged in, is attentive, has those kids' interests above her own, focuses on them, and I'm not convinced that that's happening and I'm not convinced that the monitors that the court sent over there believe that that's happening, I'm not convinced that the judge believes that that's happening and I don't think that we've seen the bottom on this thing yet.

KING: Lindsay Lohan's dad, Michael, was on this show in July, talking about his relationship with his daughter. Watch.


MICHAEL LOHAN, LINDSAY'S FATHER: Everyone around Lindsey, especially her parents have a direct bearing on her life. And I made some really stupid choices in my life. I made some mistakes. And I can definitely identify with what she's going through, because when I was torn from my family, I reacted the wrong way. My family are the most important thing in life. I love my children, always did and always will. And I was -- contrary to what people say, I was always there for my kids. The problem was, when I was taken out of their life the way I was, I reacted the wrong way. And whether it was to numb the pain or drown the sorrow, I was wrong.


KING: There's another (INAUDIBLE) Lindsay Lohan, some major talent. Where is she going? What's the effect of the parents?

MCGRAW: Lindsey's been on my show. I know her. She was an absolute delight. She was a professional. She showed up on time, was gracious, worked hard, did everything she could possibly do. And I think it kind of started unraveling, you know, shortly after that.

And you know, I worry about these parents that get up and say these things: I love my children, I would die for my children. You know, it's not about dying for your children, the question is, will you live for them? Will you be a good example? Will you provide some input and some values at that say, it's a not all about me all the time.

You know, parenting is not just a noun, it's a verb. Parent is not something you are, it's something you do. And it comes with sacrifice and it comes with putting yourself second and saying: I'm going to stop what I'm doing if it's hurting my children and kind of plug in, in some way. And you know, you have little kids, I see you out spending time with them and walking with them and doing things. I'm sure you'd like to be home with your feet up, but you have to do what you have to do.

KING: You got to do -- you're so right.

MCGRAW: We'll take a break and we'll come back and talk about O.J. Simpson.

But, before we go to our break, let's go to Anderson Cooper with a preview of AC-360 at the top of the hour.

Anderson, what's up?

ANDERSON COOPER, AC-360: Hey Larry, thanks very much.

Yeah, coming up on 360, O.J. in court. Today, he listened to a friend on the stand, a friend who said Simpson robbed him at gunpoint in a Las Vegas hotel room. Hey, well, who needs enemies when you can have friends like that? Is there enough evidence to send the case against Simpson to trial? That's what the judge is trying to determine, that's what we'll talk about tonight with CNN senior legal analyst and O.J. expert, Jeffrey Toobin.

We're also taking a different look at our "Planet in Peril" investigation. More than 15 million of you watched this documentary, generated a lot of questions and controversy, we're going to tackle both tonight, our panel of global warming experts and skeptics answering your questions. All that at the top of the hour -- Larry.

KING: That's Anderson Cooper, 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific. We'll be back with Dr. Phil right after this.


KING: We're back with Dr. Phil.

OK, what do you make of O.J.? Does a cloud follow him around or does he produce his own cloud?

MCGRAW: This guy is produceding his own weather systems. I mean, come on, this guy -- I mean, how arrogant is it to be involved in what -- you know, we don't know what -- whether he asked for guns to be brought in or he didn't, that's going to be a big controversy, but the very fact he was in that situation, and I don't believe that's even contested, he was definitely there -- come on, if you have a problem with somebody, you follow the law, you go call somebody, you get some help, you deal with it.

KING: And a friend testifies against him today. MCGRAW: Yeah, you don't have friends when you behave that way. Those aren't people that have principles and values that are going to be involved in that kind of activity with you. I don't know those people but, who would go do that with him. Come on, I mean, what kind of friends do you expect?

KING: Ellen DeGeneres, she's always upbeat and funny, seemed to have a public breakdown on television because of an adopted dog. Let's take a look.


ELLEN DEGENERES, TALK SHOW HOST: I thought I did a good thing. I tried to find a loving home for the dog, because I couldn't keep it. I was trying to do a good thing. And because I did it wrong, those people went and took that dog out of that home and took it away from those kids and I feel totally responsible for it and I'm so sorry. And I'm begging them to forgive that dog back to that family. I just want the family to have the dog. It's not their fault, it's my fault. I shouldn't have given the dog away. Just please give the dog back...


KING: Public breakdowns.

MCGRAW: Now look, I guess we are in a transparent society, right? I mean, I guess there's -- we're in the biggest information explosion in the history of the world with Internet and YouTube and, you know, all of the different things, where everybody's got a camera, everybody walking around -- everybody's cell phone is a camera and everybody's cell phone is a video camera. And then you got those that have a platform and they go on and do it there. I mean, I think that's a -- we're just living in very interesting times, Larry.

KING: Yeah, we sure are. We had an e-mail about you and your wife divorcing, we've already discussed that, you're not divorcing?


KING: Do you get ticked, by the way, when you read something that's wrong?

MCGRAW: I don't read them.

KING: Or someone tells you?

MCGRAW: Yeah, I hear about it and I just shake my heaead. I mean, it's just -- and you notice always when you this like that, a "source" close to the people or a "friend."

KING: It's always a friend.

MCGRAW: Yeah, a "friend." And I think one of my favorite ones was that I sat on the edge of the bathtub every night and sang love songs to Robin while she was in the bath. How could anybody know that? How could anybody -- I mean, that's a really good friend, you know, I guess they're like, you spread the bubbles out, Robin, we seem to have somebody else in here. I mean, how do they make this stuff up?

KING: And an e-mail from Brian in Curtis (ph), Ontario: "When dealing with disobedient kids, what's the best way to avoid yelling and losing temper?"

MCGRAW: Well, when you do that, you've got the tail wagging the dog, you get down to the child's level. Every kid has a currency, you know, wither it's a toy or a freedom or television shows, if those currency are made contingent upon proper behavior, then they'll do proper behavior to get access to that which they value.

So, you have to be consistent, very calm and very thoughtful about saying when you choose the behavior, you choose the consequences. You yell and scream, you choose to skip television, choose to skip this toy, you just have to know that you have the leverage. You just choose to use it.

KING: We'll be back more with our remaining moments with Dr. Phil. Don't go away.


KING: Let's get a call in, Salt Lake City, hello.

CALLER FROM SALT LAKE CITY: Hello, I just have a question for Dr. Phil about what he said about "Dog" having his show back. If he gets his show back, what message is that sending? He's not sorry for what he's done. He hasn't showed it, anyhow. He didn't come on your show today, which he said he wanted to get with these big leaders and he didn't come to your show today. What about others who have reality shows who might use that word, and they think, well, he did it and he still has his show?

MCGRAW: All right, fair question. I think the answer to that is he's got some work to do before he does it. I don't think he should just be given a platform again. I think he's to make commitments and then I think he's got to live up to them. But, I don't think you bury a guy because he made a mistake. I don't think you bury a guy and say, you know, that's it, you're done. I think you got to give a person a chance to make amends, show that they're sincere about it. And if they don't live up to it, that's a different story.

KING: We have one more e-mail; it's from Lori in Saint John's, Michigan. "Do you ever need advice? If so, where and who do you go to -- where do you get advice from?"

MCGRAW: I sit on them of the bathtub...


KING: You don't go to anyone? MCGRAW: Well, you know, I have a -- I am surrounded by confidantes and people that I have a great degree of trust in. You know, you talk about hold being filled with a bunch of yes-men running around telling them what they want to hear. I can't get anybody to tell me what I want to hear.

KING: You got no-men.

MCGRAW: I've all these women that are my feminine side on the show. But, you know, my wife is my best friend, as she is a trusted confidante and she tells me the truth whether I want to hear it or whether I don't.

KING: We have heard you taped an interesting show today, someone claims to have raped and killed and buried women?

MCGRAW: We actually had a -- it's the darnedest thing I've seen in all the years that I've been in television. We have a story with a man that came on to talk about infidelity and as we started pulling threads and finding out where the bottom was, the story goes much, much deeper. And it's the subject of tremendous investigation now by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the state police, from where they're from...

KING: He admitted to crime?

MCGRAW: And, they have -- he is beginning to disclose some very disturbing things. And the question is, is he telling the truth? Is he lying? Where does it all go? And that's all going to air very soon. Never seen anything like it.

KING: The "Dog" show airs tomorrow?

MCGRAW: The "Dog" show airs tomorrow. And it's interesting, it wasn't planned this way, but the timing Monday, we started a series called "The House of Judgment," and it has to do with people we put into the Dr. Phil House that are exceedingly judgmental. We have a woman in there, African-American woman...

KING: They come to the house, right?

MCGRAW: They go into the Dr. Phil House, they move in, an African-American woman that that won't even allow her children play with African-American children because she is so judgmental of her own race.

We have a huge chauvinist, the guy may be the worst male chauvinist I've ever seen. We have a man hater in there. We have all of these positions that are opposing one another and the idea is to try to make people overcome their stereotypes and generalities, take a close look what this really means and what message it really sends. It is a very interesting and compelling social experiment. That starts Monday.

KING: How long does it run?

MCGRAW: I think about three or four -- I think it'll be on Monday's for three or four weeks. It's a very compelling series.

KING: Oh, I see, every time on a Monday.

MCGRAW: Yeah, it'll be like every Monday.

KING: And another book coming -- when?

MCGRAW: Probably in the Spring. I'm working real heard right now. Everytime I eay I'm not going to do another one and then I start thinking and my mind starts turning and I feel like I've got to write some things down.

And we're almost out of time. You still enjoying it as much as ever?

I've having the most fun I've ever had this year, and it's -- we're doing so many different things, we're dealing with social issues on our Dr. Phil Now platform, having a ball.

Always great having you.

Good to see you.

Whether a host -- whether sitting here or there.

I know, I feel funny sitting over here, I've been over there a lot.

Dr. Phil. As always, check with our Web site at, you can download our new podcast, "Dog the Bounty Hunter," there are even some great guest commentaries, too. It's all at one place, CNN's No. 1 showplace,

Tomorrow night we'll get the latest on the O.J. Simpson in court encounter, and then close encounters of another kind, UFOs. And Shirley McClain will be aboard, too.