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CNN Larry King Live

Interview with Paula White

Aired November 26, 2007 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight...

PAULA WHITE, TELEVANGELIST: Oh, my goodness, I feel like preaching right now.


KING: Exclusive -- the sensational, inspiring preacher, pastor Paula White.


P. WHITE: I'm going to break it down and get real.


KING: She overcame her father's suicide and years of sexual abuse to become one of the biggest televangelists and create one of America's greatest growing churches.


P. WHITE: You're going to be healed and delivered and set free.


KING: She's now the target of a Senate inquiry and facing accusations about a lavish lifestyle and private jets and multiple homes -- even plastic surgery. All this and she's overcoming a very public divorce from her pastor husband after 18 years of marriage.


P. WHITE: This is a chapter that is closed in our life.


KING: And then, is Natalee Holloway's disappearance about to be solved?

Is little "Baby Grace's" killer her mother?

And did a police detective under suspicion murder and dispose of his wife?

A panel of famous TV judges will weigh in, all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

She's Paula White -- the hugely successful pastor and TV preacher -- now make headlines over her recent divorce from her pastor partner. Also, an author of the new book. It's called "You're All That". There you see its cover. She calls it her -- one of her proudest achievements.

She's also host of "Paula Today," a syndicated show seen worldwide.

Thank you very much for coming.

P. WHITE: Larry, it's my pleasure.

Thank you.

KING: Let's get into some -- cover your life, get into the book and touch a lot of bases.

You're a self-proclaimed messed up Mississippi girl.

What do you mean?

P. WHITE: Just the girl next door. Larry, really, when you go back and I think about what you would say -- the resume that was just read and who they qualify me to be, etc. -- when you go back and look at all of the glory you have to go back to the story...

KING: True.

P. WHITE: ...which, my father committed suicide when I'm 5-years- old, sexually and physically abused from six to 13...

KING: By the same person?

P. WHITE: Oh, no, different people, different occasions. But I never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. I had never attended church, was never raised in a religious home, never had any insight of God or who he was until I was 18 years old. And when I'm 18 years old, I'm at a friend's house. And his uncle looks me in me eye -- you know, by this time I'm an over achiever, a pretty good student, etc. And he said I have the answer to your problems. I have the solution to your pain. And he held up this book. It's a bible. I didn't know what it was.

And he opens it up and he begins to take me on this journey. And for the first time -- I know this sounds so corny -- but I knew love. I had such an empty love tank. I had all the questions to life that didn't make sense. Two and two didn't add up to four. From my father's death -- if you loved me, why did you leave me?

Why did you kill yourself?

And so when this happened, it took my life in a completely different direction.

KING: Back a little -- did you ever find out why your father killed himself?

P. WHITE: You know, there are different reasons and different things. He left a note. There was a very traumatic night that occurred that time. But the bottom line was that he was dealing with so much of his own -- I say his own demons -- that he didn't have the life skills, the knowledge, the things to get out of what was a trap to him. And when a person feels so trapped and no options, they become desperate and in the middle of desperation. I don't think it was a premeditated as much as a bad judgment in a moment.

KING: Some girls who are sexually abused when young tend to blame themselves -- did I do something to cause this.

Do you ever think about that?

P. WHITE: Oh, yes. When you go through abuse -- the behavior -- what happens is all behavior stems from faulty belief. I write about it in the book. And so when those types of situations begin to occur in your life -- I had bought in from a very early age that fundamentally something must be wrong with me. There must be a reason that these bad things happen to me. I must be dysfunctional.

So why would my dad leave?

Why would he kill himself?

Why would I be violated?

And when you're 6-years-old, you can't comprehend that.

But as you get much older in life, you begin to think what's wrong with me?

KING: With no training, how did you become a pastor?

P. WHITE: Well, that defining moment at my friend's house, when his uncle looks in my eye and reads me the word of God, I have an awakening. It was a moment that so transformed my life. And I say this is so corny, but it was like the grass was green, the sky was blue. And I can't begin to articulate -- as much as they say I'm a wordsmith -- what really happened. But I knew, Larry, I knew the power of love.

And I took that bible and I went home and I held it up and I said God, I really don't know you and I don't know myself and I don't know life, but I believe the answers are in this book. And for the next two years -- and my mother, at the time, and later in life, had remarried a very successful man, an education, two masters, and had worked and everything was career education.

KING: So you went to school?

P. WHITE: Well, I was in school at the time, but at this time I'm in college. I'm holding up this bible and I say, God, who are you?

And so I do nothing for the next two years of my life, virtually, but stay in the word of God and find out what is the answers to life. And so how did I (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Not formally.

Not going to some ministry school?

P. WHITE: Not formally. No. It was just kind of on the back side of that...

KING: Well, how do you get ordained?

P. WHITE: How do you get -- how does a person get ordained?

KING: God is in -- how can you get ordained without a degree?

P. WHITE: Well, there are many different ways that people get licensed or ordained through different ministries, denominations, etc. So -- but for myself, there was no formal seminary.

KING: I see.

You were ordained, though, from someone?

P. WHITE: Yes, I did it through our ministries. We had ordination and basically understanding there ought -- to be ordained that God has set apart, for the purposes of ministry. And, Larry, this is an important thing because of that defining moment, when I held that word up, I said I want to spend the rest of my life helping people.

KING: Didn't you have a brief marriage, also?

P. WHITE: I did. Now, that was before I had gotten saved...

KING: Before the word.

P. WHITE: ...or had an encounter with God. And what had happened was my son -- whose birthday is today -- you know, I had gotten pregnant and decided, you know, make this -- what people might have thought as a wrong -- of course, my greatest gifts in life. But (INAUDIBLE) so very brief at 18 years old and I don't mean to kind of laugh about it or take it light...

KING: The long marriage was with Randy White, right?

P. WHITE: Yes.

KING: Is he a minister?

P. WHITE: Yes, he is.

KING: He was.

Did you meet in ministerial circumstances?

P. WHITE: We did. We did. At this time, again, I said God, I want to spend the rest of my life helping people, and felt a real call through a divine moment, an encounter with God. I went to my pastor and said I have a call of God to preach. He put a broom in my hand, and I began to sweep the church. But, Larry, I was so excited.

I'm like, you're going to let me sweep the church?

I thought it was the greatest honor in the world. Then I started doing the nursery and then prepared 89 hours to teach 2 to 4-year- olds.

And during this time working in this church and going to a little country church, I met Randy.

KING: Did you and he have a televangical ministry?

I mean did you have a television show together?

Did you have a church together?

P. WHITE: We had a church together. We co-founded and co-pastored the ministry, but Randy was really a strong part. Eighteen years ago, when we married, he was such a huge part of my foundation and who I would become in God -- from covering me -- when you talked about being sexually abused and not having value for yourself -- God so used Randy to cover me with unconditional love. And he saw something in me that I couldn't see in myself.

KING: It was big news in August when Paula and Randy announced they were getting divorced.

Let's watch.


RANDY WHITE: We have a very, very difficult announcement to make tonight before Tim's story preaches. And that is that we are going through a divorce. It is the most difficult decision that I have had to make in my entire life. And I came to you tonight to, first, let you know that I take full responsibility for a failed marriage.

P. WHITE: While this is a chapter that has closed in our life, it is not the end of the story for Randy or for Paula -- or maybe even Randy and Paula. And we stand in full cooperation, in full support of each other, and especially for the cause of Christ.


KING: We'll have more with Paula White, right after this.



Can I break it down and get real?

The devil is a liar. I said the devil is a liar. Don't make me preach now, but you are the living epistle, the written word of Christ.

I don't go where I'm tolerated. I go where I'm celebrated.

Now I feel like preaching.




P. WHITE: Some people left you for dead. They thought it was over. They said you're hopeless, you're helpless. You can't be used. You're not ministry material. You're going to be poor. You're going to be messed up.

But guess what?

Tell the devil, go to hell. You're a liar.

Guess what?

Guess what?

Guess what?

I found, I found, I found, I found (ph) (INAUDIBLE).


KING: Before we ask you about the appeal to blacks, what did end the marriage?

P. WHITE: Oh, boy, that's a large question. But I think...

KING: Because you didn't answer it in the address, did you?

P. WHITE: No. But no one goes into a marriage -- when I went into my marriage 18 years ago, I thought I'd end my life with Randy. And the divorce is not anything that I ever wanted to happen. And so when you say, what made it, I don't know if you can say this was the one thing. Because even -- there are crucial things that cause fractures, breaks, whatever in relationships. But no one throws a life away, Larry.

KING: Are you still friends?

P. WHITE: Yes. Yes.

KING: Now, what about the appeal to black Americans?

What do you think that is?

I mean you look -- that was black preaching there.

P. WHITE: Well, I go back to your history tells a lot about your destiny. And one of the things is that I've been very comfortable in every situation starting ministry in the inner city and ministering in places -- Washington, D.C., feeding the homeless, the hurting, going to broken boys and girls. So culturally I understood all different aspects of life -- from extremely wealthy to extreme poverty, socioeconomic differences, ethnic differences.

And the appeal, I always say, you're going to have to ask someone else, but I believe the purpose is to stand as a reconciler, a bridge builder. And so I've stood in a place to always be a bridge between different people and bring together people for the common cause of Christ.

KING: So you're as comfortable among blacks as you are among whites?

P. WHITE: Absolutely. Absolutely.

I'm comfortable around just about everyone.

KING: We have an e-mail question from Phillip in San Antonio, Texas: "How can you preach from the pulpit regarding marriage when yours failed?"

P. WHITE: You know, that's a great question. Ezekiel says this, though, he's -- God said to the prophet, he said I'm going to cause you to sit where they've sat. And meaning this, Larry, I now have a greater compassion than I have ever had before to know what it is to have the pain of a broken marriage. And I'm not saying I have an answer or solution for everyone. But I am saying there is someone that I have a message and purpose for, that God will bring in my pathway, because one thing I'm committed, Larry, is never to waste my trials in life, to find purpose in all things and especially the places of pain.

KING: Many Evangelicals, right-wingers they're called -- Christians critical in the current political campaign of anybody who has been divorced.

P. WHITE: Um-hmm.

KING: Do you feel that or hear that from your fellow Evangelists?

P. WHITE: Of people who have been critical?

KING: Just for being divorced.

P. WHITE: Oh, I'm sure...

KING: Giuliani has been facing it.

P. WHITE: Oh, yes. Absolutely. I mean everyone is going to have an opinion. But the fact is, is many people have been critical or judgmental, which is almost a double whammy, as if the pain of going through a divorce is not enough, then to have what you want -- embrace and support. Randy needs that. I need that.

But at the same time, I've also found thousands that have reached out to me in a way that maybe they never did. And it's broadened the ministry in other ways that people now relate. And maybe not -- and say hey, she's really -- she's touchable.

KING: Do you take a political stand?

P. WHITE: When you say -- get involved in politics?

KING: So you support -- support any candidate?

P. WHITE: You know, I have my own personal opinions, but they're just that. I stay in my lane of assignment and do what I'm supposed to do in life.

KING: Do you have any problem with a Mormon candidate?

P. WHITE: I don't have any problem with the right candidate. And so whoever I believe is going to be the best for that office -- and the most qualified -- is the reason that we put them in that position.

KING: But you wouldn't rule out someone if they were a Mormon?

P. WHITE: No, I wouldn't rule out someone that was qualified to be in that position.


Senator Grassley, as you know, is investigating many televangelists, especially those who made a great deal of money, and the question of whether they should get a tax break. A former staffer of Without Walls International Church criticized it -- the part of -- you're a part of it -- saying: "It has become all about mansions, planes, money and fame."

Another detractor says: "Everything she does is a total act and it's all about money."

How do you respond?

Do you have a plane?

P. WHITE: Yes -- well not personally, but absolutely, the ministry does. But when you say how do I respond to Senator Grassley or how do I respond to the criticism?

KING: Well, Senator Grassley -- his question is why do you get a tax break?

P. WHITE: Well, that's an inquiry that is being done. And I have great concern, but my concern is probably not what most people would think it would be.

My concern is why is our faith being targeted as part of this inquiry when there are laws on the books and there is legal jurisdiction any time there is abuse in financial handling?

KING: But Senator Grassley is trying to change the law with regard to the tax break because he feels if someone is in the church and they can afford a plane, why do they get a tax break? P. WHITE: But there are always...

KING: That's a fair question.

P. WHITE: But there are already current laws on the books and there are -- and jurisdictions. The IRS can come in and do any kind of investigation of a person.

KING: Do you have any qualms about having a great deal of money?

P. WHITE: Do I -- for me personally?

KING: Yes.

P. WHITE: Or for other people?

KING: For you.

P. WHITE: You know, to me, it's never been about money. I mean and it's not -- so when you say I don't look at it and say -- I don't sit down and say, boy, I'm thinking about getting a great deal of money or I'm not going to have any money.

I believe that prosperity has a purpose. And my definition of prosperity would be quite different than what most people probably imagine or think, because I think that a wholeness word that means nothing missing, nothing broken. It's not finances or materialism.

So let's say financially. Financially, I personally believe that you should have enough to do the assignment that you feel is part of your life. And whatever that is to do, you're going to need. Like, this is quite expensive to do -- what it is you're doing, but you're doing it effectively and bringing information to the world.

KING: We will take a break and come back and talk about her book.

Paula White is the guest.

The book is "You're All That".

We're going to find out what that means, right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) P. WHITE: You've been complaining, you've been depressed, you've been despondent. But take off those garments of heaviness and put back on your garments of praise. I didn't come when you thought I was going to come, but I'm going to be right on time, Mary. I (INAUDIBLE) God (INAUDIBLE) I said, Mary!



KING: The book is "All That: Understanding God's Design for Your Life."

The author is our guest, Paula White. About it our friend Bishop T.D. Jakes said: "Paula has proven to be a woman who can steer you through the storm and on to a life of massive accomplishments."

And Donald Trump jumps in with: "Paula White is not only a beautiful person, both inside and out, she has a significant message to offer anyone who will tune in and pay attention. She has amazing insight, the ability to deliver that message clearly, as well as powerfully. Read this and you'll be ready for great success. She's an amazing woman."

All right, what do we mean by "You're All That?"

P. WHITE: Well, it goes back to the core of who you are. I believe so many people live what I call that false identity, Larry -- that they are living according to other people's expectations, associations, their experiences, the labels in life. And they buy into that.

And I think, for myself, life lied to me. I was not a product of what happened to me, what I had been through, where I had come from. And when I began to realize who I really was, that God had created me, put my DNA, everything together was perfectly precisionly put together by God and that I was valuable, that's what "You're All That". And when you find your authentic self, your identity -- your true identity -- how many people work a job they hate or live a life, they're going oh my gosh.

And you'll never be fulfilled or satisfied. Satisfaction comes from the inside out, so people keep gravitating from things externally to try to fill something -- get a man to complete them, get money to complete them, get a job to complete them and still find themselves frustrated.

So "You're All That" goes back to really building a life from the core of who you're. And all of those things are layers. That's just your authentic life.

And how do you discover it?

KING: This is a self-help book?

P. WHITE: Well, I believe the bible helps yourself. So I think, you know, it's based around the biblical principles and truths that transformed me.

KING: Must I be a believer to appreciate the book?

P. WHITE: Oh, absolutely not.

KING: Not?

P. WHITE: Not. It's the book -- again, I go back to that your history tells a lot about your destiny. Remember, Larry, I didn't grow up in church. I had no concept of God -- existence, I -- the name Jesus was synonymous with tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

So when I had this concept that I'm not just a body with a mind, that I'm a spirit being, I'm a synergistically trying (ph) being, when I understood that, life began to come into focus.

So when I say you don't have to be a believer, you just have to say -- you have to ask the question to say am I concerned about the tough questions in life, being introspective enough to say, who am I, why am I, what am I?

KING: What, to you, is God?

P. WHITE: What?

KING: Is he a thing, a being, a spirit or what?

P. WHITE: A spirit is a great definition for me. He's a spirit. And so I think we try to box and put God in some limited definition, which is impossible.

How can you begin to describe -- what do I say?

I can begin to give his attributes. He's a counselor. He's a healer. He's a friend that sits closer than a brother. To me, he just -- I sum it up that he's my anchor, my rock, my foundation in life, that my life was -- had an emptiness -- a deep, dark void with something -- it had a lot of fulfillment externally, but something inside said there's more.

KING: On those occasions when he does not listen to your prayers, how do you explain this?

P. WHITE: I believe he always listens to our prayers. I just don't...

KING: Or he doesn't respond.

P. WHITE: There you go. I say you have to remember in darkness what he told you in light. And the principle is this, Larry, that there are times that it does feel like God is playing hide and go seek. But I trust him. My faith graduated to a place called trust, that I know ultimately -- ultimately, that God has good things for me.

Now, what I might have considered good, good doesn't mean every day is going to be perfect, you're not going to have bad breath, your hair is going to be in the perfect place.

Good means ultimately he's producing character in me to conform me into the image of Christ.

KING: We'll have some more moments with Paula White.

The book is "You're All That".

And we'll be right back.


P. WHITE: God has hooked me up.

He has the life by design (ph).


And I'd better receive it (ph).

And I came to let you know, God is not going to his authenticity be destroyed.

He carries out. That's what he calls forth.



KING: We're back with Paula White. Her book is "You're All That!" about plastic surgery, we mentioned at the beginning there were stories you and your husband both had plastic surgery, which was your right, of course, but that the church paid for it.

WHITE: Well, we are going back to this question, but I can tell you absolutely not.

KING: They did not pay for it?

WHITE: Absolutely not.

KING: OK. We have an e-mail from Kathy in Tampa, Florida, your home.


KING: "Why does Paula avoid answering questions about how she takes up offering. When asked if she tells people if God would bless them if they give, she avoided the question when that is indeed what she does. Why is she not honest? We who give, want to know, what she is hiding?"

WHITE: I don't understand what she's asking here because she's saying to me, there's --

KING: She says you tell people god will bless them if they give, and then you avoid answering what it is that God will do for them if they give and what you do with what they give.

WHITE: OK. Well, first, I can't tell what god will do because I'm not God. I can only take you back to biblical principle. Secondly, we have full disclosure in transparency of our audited, our financial audits. It's on our Web site. It is, I think 16 or 20- something pages, which most public companies or private companies and most ministries don't disclose. So we have always operated with financial integrity and full transparency.

KING: Does it ever bother you at all to know that your organization makes a lot of money? Does that bother you, as opposed to an oil company or a bus company? WHITE: Larry, to fulfill what we are called to do, if you go on the Web site, you will see that over 80 cents of every dollar -- I think it was maybe 83 cents to 87 cents went straight back to missions, outreach and evangelism. So if I really believe that we are blessed to be a blessing and that we are building educational centers, orphanages, I support Safe Horizon, the largest child advocacy, North Side Community Center. We send tens of thousands of children back to school, inner city children with backpacks.

KING: That takes money.

WHITE: Medical centers. I can go on and on. In the Appalachians. I fed the poorest part of this nation for years coming up at Christmas, Larry Jones with Feed the Children and I are partnering in New York and going into Rikers Island. That clip was of Coleman Prison, taking toys into every child whose mom or dad is locked up in prison.

To say you're going to wiggle your nose and that is going to happen, it won't happen. If you look at major companies who are doing wonderful things, wonderful things and they give their portfolio billions of dollars that they make and they give away $10 million or so, when you start putting the percentages there, what we are doing is significant.

KING: You have nothing to be sorry about?

WHITE: I have nothing to be sorry about. In fact the very opposite. I'm extremely proud of the ability to really go forth and minister.

KING: How should I use the book?

WHITE: How should you use it?

KING: How -- phrase it this way. How should a person buying this book this book use it? How?

WHITE: This is the best message that I have been responsibly for it. This will help you, A, find your identity. Because you can never overcome life issues. You'll never overcome your condition without knowing your position. So identity. Significance comes out of identity, meaning life's purpose, your why in life. But the great thing is this book is so practical, Larry. I started with self gone missing. Did you get so caught up in the preoccupancy of a relationship that you lost who you were or were busy in life or career that you, like Adam and Eve, got lost in the garden putting fig leaf after fig leaf title, relationship, this accolade, this saying over you that you forgot who you were and what's life's about?

So getting back to the core of that and building life by design, that is authentic. So I talk about things like how to lose without losing identity. All loss and grief feels like when you transition. When seasons change in our life, it's difficult. Because it feels like loss and no one likes loss. And I go through, how do you do that? How do you take that transition without losing it in the curve? KING: Great pleasure meeting you. Thank you.

WHITE: You too, Larry. My great pleasure.

KING: Paula White. The book is "You're All That!"

And when we come back, we will get the latest on the Natalee Holloway case from Aruba. Three suspects have been rearrested and we will cover other hot legal topics with an all-star panel of TV judges when we return.


KING: And welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

We are going to discuss three cases in three segments as we move along here. Joining us in New York is Judge Glenda Hatchett. The host of her own television show. And in Miami is Judge Alex Ferrer, the host of his own show, "Judge Alex." in Los Angeles, Judge Joe Brown, who hosts his own show. And two people who don't host their own show. Mark Geragos, the noted defense attorney. And Robin Sax Katzenstein, the prosecutor for the L.A. County deputy district attorney.

First, we'll discuss Aruba, Judge Hatchett, what is your read on what's going on there? They arrest, they rearrest? Today Joran Van der Sloot will be held, now they decided, for eight more days. What is this?

GLENDA HATCHETT, TV JUDGE: It's very interesting. Larry, they have to have something new. They cannot rehash the existing evidence. Because obviously we have gone through this before and they were released after having been held. The prosecutor now says that they have new evidence and that they have a new take on some existing evidence. So it's going to be very interesting to see what happens after this next cycle because either they are going to have to show something or these guys are going to be released again.

KING: Judge Ferrer, is this anything like the system in the United States?

ALEX FERRER, TV JUDGE: No, it is like the system in the United States but they are not completely comparable. I mean, we are dealing with Aruban law, which allows you to hold an individual for investigative purposes. We have to show probably cause before we lock someone up for a sustained period of time. The police can detain your briefly at an arrest site but beyond that, they have to come up with probable cause. He, as you know, was held for three months the first time around and now the judges agreed to hold him for an additional eight days without any charges being filed at this point.

So it's a little different. But I agree with Judge Hatchett. There's got to be something there for them to re-unearth all of this drama all over again and have judges pass on it.

KING: Judge Brown, is the difficulty here the fact that we have no corpus delecti?

JOE BROWN, TV JUDGE: It may be a problem but we have a different system here. But we need to watch that with homeland security we may have to get familiar with the new way.

KING: Jossy Mansur is director of the Aruban newspaper "Diario."

What's going on, Jossy? Tell us.

JOSSY MANSUR, ARUBAN NEWSPAPER, "DIARIO": What's going on is all three suspects have been rearrested. They went before the judge, the Kalpoe brothers first and today Joran. All try of them were expanded in their detention and now they have eight more days in jail, in which they are going to be interrogated by the prosecution.

KING: Do you believe that, therefore, the prosecution has a lot more evidence?

MANSUR: I am sure they have a lot more evidence. Because I don't think they would put themselves in a ridiculous position of doing all of this, going through all of the trouble of rearresting them, bringing Joran from Holland and besides that there are two different judges who saw the evidence and had convinced of its merit and went along with the detentions.

KING: Robin, would you like these rules of prosecution? Bring them in, let them go, bring them out, and bring them back.

ROBIN SAX KATZENSTEIN, PROSECUTOR, L.A. COUNTY: Actually, we do here in the Los Angeles and the United States have the ability to release someone and bring them back.

KING: You can rearrest every other day, right?

KATZENSTEIN: We wouldn't like to make that our general practice. However, we can go back and rearrest someone once we develop a case and feel that there's a strong enough case, we like to have it up front there.

KING: What's your read here?

KATZENSTEIN: I think in this case it is clear there is a lot more evidence. I think in a situation like in Aruba where you have a judge's son under scrutiny and overseeing kind of what's going on in the whole country, it would be surprising that there wasn't something within these text messages or e-mails that they have been talking about.

KING: Mark, you always have a different view.

MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do have a different view. I hate to be contrarian. But it's almost ...

KING: Oh, go ahead.

GERAGOS: Everybody has this child-like naivete, wow, the only reason we would have brought him in is because there must be new evidence. Listen to what they said, well, we have a different take on the evidence. Read that. It's nothing more than a new prosecutor who wants to make a stand with the usual prosecutorial B.S. They don't have anything new. They are bringing them in and see if they can make them sweat it out. Doing the same thing they did before.

It is an abomination of a system they have there. The idea they can keep people in there and sweat them out. They don't have anything new. It's nonsense. The guy was over in Holland going to college. I would venture to say, I will make a bold statement, not only do they not have anything new, the best thing they got, they probably wiretapped. They have some statements they interpreted as being different now they will bring them back and say, ah-hah, you made a different statement because of the way you interpreted it and now we will keep you on ice.

KING: Possible, Robin?

KATZENSTEIN: It's possible that there is going to be a reincarnation of how we look at the evidence but there's also additional evidence. I think from the very beginning we are in a situation where the suspects immediately lied and now they're probably caught in their lies in the audiotapes.

KING: Judge Brown?

BROWN: I think it's, again, the way the system works over there. You notice that the judges are involved in the whole process. It's not the police interrogating the would-be defendants but the prosecution, like I said earlier, this sounds like what we proposed for ourselves under homeland security.

KING: Would you like that?

BROWN: No, I would not. Doesn't sound very American to me.

GERAGOS: Exactly.

KING: Jossy, thank you for joining you. We are going to take a break and come back and look at another case in the news. Two more fascinating cases to get at. First, let's check in with Anderson Cooper. The host of AC 360. Once again, graces our shores here in Los Angeles. Where he will host his program tonight. What's up tonight, Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I'm happy to be here, Larry. Coming up at the top of the hour on 360 - the presidential candidates really baring their teeth and snarling and swiping at each other now at every turn. That is part of the game, of course. Is what they are saying actually true? Well, tonight we are "Keeping Them Honest."

And we will also take look at a story if you have a kid or grandchild you really need to see. A young girl, this young girls goes online and starts a MySpace page and the truly unthinkable happens. Her story and how hopefully it can be avoided.

Plus news on the latest tape from Osama bin Laden. We'll have all of that and more, Larry, at the top of the hour.

KING: That's Anderson Cooper, AC 360, at 1 0:00 Pacific, 7:00 -- sorry, 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific.

Authorities believe they have identified a two-year-old girl who had been known as Baby Grace. Her mother and male companion have been arrested. We will get all of the details right after this.


SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If the prospect of facing another judge and another jail bothered him, Joran Van der Sloot wasn't letting it show under police escort back to Aruba. CNN has learned investigators found discrepancies after reanalyzing the time and location of e-mails, text messages and phone calls among the three suspects the night Natalee Holloway disappeared.



KEVIN REECE, KHOU CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Neighbors got the news this afternoon, that the little girl they used to see in their cul-de-sac in the Spring has been identified tentatively as Baby Grace. Pending positive DNA analysis, investigators believe Baby Grace is Riley Ann Sawyers. She was just two years old. Now Riley's mom and a man identified as Riley's stepfather, are in the Galveston County jail.


KING: A certainly strange case. Judge Hatchett, what do you make of this?

HATCHETT: Absolutely, I'm glad that we have found this child's body. We have to wait for the DNA test. What a tragic ending. Larry, I will tell you that I'm so grateful for a relative, a grandmother, specifically, that was so tenacious in not giving up on this and really raising questions about the mother's explanation and this really not fading away and then really being able to bring some closure to this matter.

KING: By the way, the father, Robert Sawyers, and that paternal grandmother, will be guests on this program on Thursday night. It will be their first primetime appearance. The father and paternal grandmother will be here on Thursday night. Judge Ferrer, what is your read?

FERRER: Well, I mean obviously, it's a huge tragedy and everybody is happy that they were finally able to identify the child. It looks almost certain at this point. This afternoon, I believe, they released statements that the mother and boyfriend gave about how their daughter died and it is -- you know how they say don't mess with Texas. These are the types of cases that make people all over America say this is why we have a death penalty. Because when you injury a child or kill a child under such tragic circumstances as this, people's emotions just get on fire. This is a case that is going to be really tough to watch.

KING: On the other hand, is one of the problems, Mark, in cases like this and cable television, a presumption of guilt?

GERAGOS: That's exactly right. It's obviously a tragic case. There isn't anybody who watches this or hears about it that their heart doesn't go out and I don't even know how somebody can come on and talk about it if they are related. I mean, it's just awful to even think about.

But at the same time why are they releasing these statements? Why are these things out in the public realm? It doesn't need to be out there. There's no point in doing it other than to just completely take away any chance for a fair trial.

KING: Does it -- I know as a district attorney, Robin, doesn't it bother you a little, and maybe the British system might make more sense in that you cannot do what we just did here in Britain?

KATZENSTEIN: Well, I think this is a huge human interest story that happens around the country all the time. There are children, missing and murdered and awful circumstances that happen in families. And I think to bring this to media attention actually allows the cases to be solved.

KING: Does it hamper the defense?


KING: It doesn't?

GERAGOS: Wouldn't it be better -- I would agree with you. It's a great thing. You have a story. Besides the tragedy, you can learn from it. You can put it out there. But why does the woman's statement, why does the mother's statement have to be put out there? Basically that's a confession. Why put that out there?

Why not just clamp down after you have told the story of what the tragedy is. We have got two suspects in. We are going to now shut down coverage on it.

KING: Who does it help?

KATZENSTEIN: I think that the people want to hear what the mother has to say. This is her own daughter. This is her own flesh and blood that was found in a carton, in a plastic container. I mean, there's a ...

KING: Judge Brown, do you have any thoughts?

BROWN: I think this is part of the problem we are getting in this whole justice system now. Everybody cannot understand the delay of gratification. They want to know right now. The inquiring mind is right out there. So you release all the statements. You taint jury pools. You have big problems and you get misled to what is supposed to be expected from the process. KING: It is we the media, that say you want to know?

BROWN: The media has to have a consumer. It's not just the media.

KING: Right.

BROWN: It's the whole country. We want to know right now but sometimes that defeats our purposes.

KING: A 23-year-old mother of two -- hold it, judge, I'm sorry. A 23-year-old mother of two is still missing. And her police sergeant husband is a suspect. We will have the latest on Stacy Peterson. Stay with us.


KING: Now we turn to the mysterious disappearance of Stacy Peterson, the 23-year-old mother of two reported missing back on October 29. Her husband, of course, the prime suspect as a previous wife or two previous wife, I think.


KING: Three altogether who died. Does this make this easy prosecution, should it come to that, Robin? Based on just what -- the prior connections around him?

KATZENSTEIN: Well, it certainly helps. He does have a history that will be admissible, likely, that would be prior bad acts that could help prove that he is in fact the murderer in this case.

KING: Will he have a tough time, Judge Ferrer, getting a fair trial?

FERRER: If he keeps talking in front of cameras, he is going to have a hard time getting a fair trial on anywhere but Pluto. I don't know who keeps putting him in front of cameras, but every time he opens his mouth, he justifies his rating as suspect number one.

They need to tell him to be quiet. I don't know why his lawyers paraded him in front of the cameras to begin with, to be honest with you, Larry.

KING: Judge Hatchett, what do you make of this case?

HATCHETT: First of all, he may not be listening to his lawyers. He may just decide on his own to do it.

But I do agree he's not serving his interests by doing that. But the thing though I'm really pleased about is the decisions of the FBI to be involved in this. Because I think that having the FBI also removes the possibility that local police officers may have some sympathy towards a person who has worked with them. Of course, the local police authority immediately took themselves off the investigation, which is the wise thing to do. But I tell you, there are just a number of issues. And I agree and I know Mark is going to say, we can't try him ahead of time. And absolutely, I agree with that. But this raises a lot of questions and I'm glad they opened the third wife's case back up. Because this seems very, very, very suspicious to me.

KING: Mark, is he up against it?

GERAGOS: Yeah, he's up against it. And I don't quite understand, I will echo some of the previous sentiments.

I cannot tell you how many cases I've had where people have given interviews, made statements and then the next time they watched those interviews is when they are sitting in a defendant's chair and they watch the prosecutor play them.

Sometimes that helps. Robert Blake, there was a lot of people who would argue that it helped for his acquittal, by the prosecution putting it on. I know when Susan MacDougal gave her interview to Diane Sawyer, when the prosecution put that on, that actually helped.

But in the -- I think those are the exceptions. Generally, what happens is, it is the same as anything else. You find three different interviews. You may answer a question three different ways. They will splice them. The prosecutor will show those. Ah-hah, they are inconsistent. They may not have any other evidence. But if somebody is inconsistent, jurors think well that means there or must mean there's something there.

KING: Will these prior acts automatically get in, Judge Brown?

BROWN: No, they will not automatically come in. There will have to be certain exceptions they have to show. In other words, prove motive, method, identification, certain of the exceptions. This is a dangerous thing, as defense counsel so aptly pointed out. Sometimes it's effective. Sometimes you are your worst enemy.

KING: Robin?

KATZENSTEIN: Well, in California under evidence code section 1108 you do not need to show intent or motive or any other reasons of actually one of the opportunities to be able to show propensity. And propensity ...

KING: And you can show it even if he doesn't take the stand?

KATZENSTEIN: Yes, through the testimony of other people and other evidence.

GERAGOS: We affectionately on the defense side call it character assassination code section. It lets anything come in so you can assassinate character. Because when you don't have the evidence, just make the person out to be a demon.

KING: Does that bother you as a judge, Glenda?

HATCHETT: No. I think that really is what the prosecutors have to rely on in this situation. Of course, the question becomes how the third wife die? And now we have a fourth wife missing. And then some speculation that he was involved with the fourth wife at the time, that he was married to his third wife and maybe there was knowledge on her part. It just goes on and on and on. But, no, we have to look at all of the pieces. If there are problems, the jury needs to know that.

KING: Judge Ferrer, would you have a problem with this case?

FERRER: Would I have a problem? I have a problem with the way it's being handled on the defense side because his lawyer did parade him in front of the cameras on one occasion.

The other interviews might have been voluntarily made on his part but his lawyer was involved in one of them. And when I saw that interview, I thought it was horrendous. He took the Fifth to most of the questions and in America you have a constitutional right to remain silent. But I hate to tell everybody, when you exercise it in front of the cameras, that tells all of America you have got something to hide. That's the way they look at it.

So trying the case, I'd have no problem at all. I've tried hundreds of murders and some much, much worse than what this is starting to look like. Even though we don't know if this is a murder yet.

HATCHETT: And, judge, the question becomes, why do it if you're going to sit there and have your client invoke the Fifth over and over?

FERRER: Absolutely. It's horrible.

KING: Thank you all very much. We'll do a lot more on all of this.

If you missed our brief but historic interview with Dr. Jan Adams you can download it at He is the doctor who performed surgery on Kanye West's mom and he made a brief appearance last week. It's an interesting show to say the least. It's available at

Tomorrow night, Sharon Stone. Friday night, Senator Fred Thompson.

And now right here in Los Angeles, our man Anderson Cooper. AC?