Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Larry King Live

Interview with Fred Thompson; Stacy Peterson Update

Aired November 30, 2007 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, he's played a president on TV. And now actor and former Senator Fred Thompson wants the real life role of his career -- leader of the free world.
He's with us direct from the campaign trail, bringing his first lady, wife Jerri, with him.

Plus, the Stacy Peterson case takes an astonishing turn.

Did her brother-in-law unwittingly help her husband dispose of her body?

Some answers, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

He reminded me tonight that we first met 34 years ago, when he and late Sam Dash appeared on my radio show.

He's Fred Thompson, the former senator from Tennessee, presidential candidate seeking the Republican nomination.

And his lovely wife, Jeri Thompson.

They are also the parents of two very young children.

First, the big story of the day and your reaction to it.

What do you make of this hostage drama at Hillary Clinton's office in Rochester?

FRED THOMPSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are troubled people out there, unfortunately. And I understand there was a medical issue and you -- you read about that from time to time. And people in public life are certainly not immune from that, in terms of being victims or potential victims. And it's something that we're all mindful of who are out there in the public.

KING: Does it give you pause, Jeri?

JERI THOMPSON, WIFE OF FRED THOMPSON: It does. It does a little bit. But I don't know that it would be any different from the situation versus the "Law and Order" notoriety. So it's something you just have to deal with. It comes along with -- it comes with the territory.

KING: So you think notoriety is notoriety?

J. THOMPSON: Yes. KING: You could be an actor or a candidate?

J. THOMPSON: Right. I think there are probably a lot of actresses out there that could -- could make that case.

KING: You made news at the CNN/YouTube debate with the -- when they showed your ad -- I guess of all the ads that were shown, yours got the most attention. And you were rather negative toward -- toward Governors Romney and Huckabee.

Do you feel any regrets over that?

F. THOMPSON: Negative in the sense that I played their own words back for them, Larry. That's -- that's the only thing...

KING: That was a dirty trick.


F. THOMPSON: Oh. No, I don't. I don't. They've been out there, you know, making their points on the issues and so forth. And I'm making the point that I'm where I've always been on all the major issues, ever since I've been in public life. And some others are having to, shall we say, tailor their positions to the current circumstances. They're running for president now and they've had to move away from some of the positions they took for a long time.

So I'm reminding them of where they were.

KING: What's this been like for you?

F. THOMPSON: Well...

KING: What's it been like to run for the president?

F. THOMPSON: Well, of course, in the first place, running for office is running for office. And I ran for two statewide offices in Tennessee and I have been with and around and a part of other presidential campaigns. So I can't say there's really been any big surprises.

It's a wonderful opportunity to have strong feelings about your country and offering yourself up for public service -- if that's what the people want and the kind of leadership they think they want -- is a rare opportunity.

Jeri and I had a long talk about the kind of world, the kind of country our kids were going to grow up in and how many people have the opportunity to really directly do something about it. I think we have that opportunity and it's a rare privilege. There's a lot of aggravation, of course, that goes along with it. But at the end of the day, it's a privilege to be able to do it.

KING: You're very much a part of it, Jeri.

Are you enjoying it? J. THOMPSON: I think most spouses are a part of it. I think that maybe one of the misconceptions -- I was lucky enough to be invited to Maria Shriver's event in Long Beach, here in California. And one of the things I learned from most of the women that have been doing this a whole lot longer than I have, is that they're very much involved.

And, frankly, the story would be why wouldn't you be involved?


KING: But you get a lot of press as sort of playing a key role.

J. THOMPSON: I don't think it's any more of a key role for me than it is for anybody else. I think that's -- is sort of -- is sort of the role they like me to play.

KING: So you think that's a misconception.

Does it annoy you, Fred, when we read that, you know, some say Jeri runs the campaign?

F. THOMPSON: That might not be a bad idea, actually.


F. THOMPSON: It's more humorous than anything else. Jeri is the mother of a child four and a child one. And the idea that, between preschool and doctor's appointments and all the other things that go with that, that she's back there running the campaign is kind of funny.

But she -- early on, when we first got started, it started around our kitchen table. And we were all very busy at that time. I had two jobs. I had a television job and also a radio job, filling in for Paul Harvey. So I had to disassociate myself with that and start trying to build a staff.

So on more than one occasion, I asked her to do certain things for me. She's -- she's very knowledgeable and very savvy and she did some things that I asked her to do. And some people don't like spouses or, I guess, women, you know, suggesting that their husband wants this and would you follow up on that and why didn't this happen that way -- things that I asked her to do. And so, you know, people talk to the press and things like that.

But it's -- it doesn't amount to anything.

KING: Why is immigration such a big issue?

F. THOMPSON: It has to do with some basic things this country is about, the security of this country. A person can come across a border now with a small amount of a certain kind of material, put it in the hands of an expert and destroy an American city. We have people here that we apprehend by the thousands, really, over a period of years, who are from countries that are state sponsors of terrorism. It's a matter of the rule of law. We're based on the rule of law. We have people in this country who have come here and played by the rules, stood in long lines many times, many -- on many occasions -- around the country, at embassies, to become American citizens. Now, they're part of our fabric -- some of our better people.

To put other people, who have not obeyed the law or abided by the rules, ahead of them in terms of amnesty or something like that, goes against everything we believe in.

So there are a lot of reasons why it's an important issue.

KING: You can't send everyone back.


KING: So what do you do?

F. THOMPSON: You -- well, first of all, if you find someone here illegally, you do send them back. There's no reason not to do that. It's what we're supposed to do. But that's not going to happen with everybody. We know that. Over a period of time, though, if we do the right thing, if we -- if we secure the border, enforce the law, make sure that employers are encouraged and penalized if they don't hire people they're supposed to hire, help them know when they're hiring someone illegally so that they can avoid that and then avoid things like sanctuary cities. We still have cities in this country that basically tell their own employees that they cannot cooperate with the federal authorities when they find someone here illegally. That's -- that's not right.

If we stop all those policies, over a period of time, the situation would begin to right itself.

KING: What do you do to break through?

Now, obviously that hasn't happened yet. Huckabee is coming on strong in the polls indicate you're sort of at a standstill.

What do you do strategically?

Iowa is only, what, five weeks away.

F. THOMPSON: Yes. Yes.

KING: What do you do?

F. THOMPSON: Well, that depends on your -- on your vantage point. You know, we're still usually running second in the national polls and running first in South Carolina. So it depends on what you want to focus in on.

Iowa, I guess, we're third now. Huckabee is coming on strong. You just continue to work. I mean there's no magic formula or buttons to push. I'll tell you one thing that's not going to happen. I'm not going to change me. I'm not going to change my views. I'm not going to think any differently than I've done since 1994, when I first came into public life. And it's worked pretty well for me so far.

And although we didn't get in nearly as early as the other guys did, we're doing well.

In terms of where we are right now in the campaign, people don't pay attention to these things very much until more toward the end.

KING: So you're going to...

F. THOMPSON: And so you've got to have -- you've got to have faith and you've got to be persistent and you've got to work hard in the last month or so before the first election.

KING: More moments with Fred and Jeri.

It sounds like a sitcom.

Fred Thompson and Jeri.

Don't go away.


F. THOMPSON: After eight years in Washington, I longed for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood.





F. THOMPSON: I have the benefit now of being, apparently, the main target of the Democratic National Committee.




F. THOMPSON: I'm running for president of the United States.

LENO: All right. (INAUDIBLE).


(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: We're back with Fred Thompson and his lovely wife, Jeri Thompson.

We have an e-mail from Tom in Cincinnati: "Mr. Thompson, what do you see as the top three priorities if elected president of the United States?"

F. THOMPSON: National security always has to be number one. I think that we have not yet really been forced to come to terms with the nature of the world we live in. We're going to have to do more things better. We're going to have to have a stronger military. We're going to have to be smarter in what we do with it.

That's -- that's not to say I don't believe in what we're doing in Iraq. Just the contrary. But I think in (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: You don't agree with how Iraq has been handled, though, do you?

Or do you?

F. THOMPSON: In terms of the strategy that we had there for a long time, I do not. In terms of what we're doing now, I do.

Secondly, our economy. We're bankrupting the next generation. There's no question about that. We're going to have to do something. We're locked into a spending pattern in terms of our entitlement programs that we're going to have to do a few things better now without hurting a lot of people or it will have disastrous consequences for our economy later.

And I think, third -- thirdly is the unity of the American people. I think nobody in Washington these days has any credibility. And when leadership of any kind, of either party, comes forth and says these are our problems, here's what we need to do about it, I don't think anybody believes anybody anymore.

KING: Do you think the country has never been more divided?

F. THOMPSON: I'm sure there have been periods of time. But I think -- where they have been more divided on a particular issue. But I think generally speaking, when you look at the ratings and so forth of -- I think Congress, especially, at an all time low. And it seems to be more persistent. These are -- these are good times economically, comparatively. And to have those kinds of attitudes toward leadership in Washington in these times is -- it's a troubling thing. It's got to make it more difficult to do the things that we need to do in the future to make ourselves strong and prosperous.

KING: How do you react to those who say Fred Thompson doesn't want to work hard?

F. THOMPSON: I don't usually have much of a reaction to them at all.

KING: Do you think that's folly or... F. THOMPSON: Yes. It's -- somebody asked me about that on one of the debates and I went -- got to thinking about it a little bit. And my response to them was that I started out in a factory when I was a kid, in a small town in Tennessee. I worked and bartered my way through school. I had a family at that time. I was a prosecutor, a federal prosecutor, when I was in my 20s. I was the Watergate counsel when I was 30. I got elected to the United States Senate twice, by 20 point margins, in a state that Bill Clinton carried twice.

When I decided to do this job that Jeri was talking about, the television job, I had two jobs at that time. I've been called upon by the president to help judge John Roberts to be chief justice, John Roberts. I was called on by Condoleezza Rice to head up an advisory board on international security matters because that was my -- one of my areas of expertise when I was in the Senate.

And I'm the father of two children under the age of five. And I said then, I said if a man can be lazy and do that, then I highly recommend it to everybody.

KING: How do you react to that critique, Jeri?

J. THOMPSON: It's frustrating for me. I think it would be frustrating for anyone, you know, to have your -- to have your spouse denigrated that way. But it's -- it's -- we did. We laughed. We really -- I mean we were almost a chortle (ph) to know that he was working two full-time jobs and doing these civil service, you know, jobs on the side. And when he had -- we had to keep up the highest classification for his -- for him to, you know, be able to have these briefings.

F. THOMPSON: Security classification briefings.

J. THOMPSON: The security -- yes, thank you -- the security clearances. I mean that -- that in and of itself ought to denote something, you know, about where his heart was and what he was doing. I think when there's not much to attack, you go after these stories. And they do -- they do what they can to -- to look for something to try to attack him on.

He's a slower talker. He moves a little slower. And I think that people go -- and they go at that and try to think that that's -- that's what it is. It's just -- it's just (INAUDIBLE)...

F. THOMPSON: Slow talking, slow walking Tennessee boys (INAUDIBLE)...

J. THOMPSON: It's just flat out ridiculous.

KING: An op-ed piece in the "Wall Street Journal" -- I'm sure you saw it the other day -- says that you came up with the best plan on changing the tax structure in this country...


KING: ...but have not -- you don't have a strong team out following it up.

How do you react to that?

F. THOMPSON: Well, the fact that it's in the "Wall Street Journal" is a pretty good indication that somebody is paying attention to it. And what we've done, of course, is -- is come forth with the proposition that lower taxes and lower tax rates means more growth for our economy. And it's vital for that. And that people ought to have the option, if they want to, to go to a flatter tax rate so you can pay either 10 percent or 25 percent and no deductions and, you know...


F. THOMPSON: ...once you pay for it.

KING: When they say your not following -- you should have a team out there pushing it, you should be on all the radio stations and...

F. THOMPSON: Larry, that...



F. THOMPSON: Again, you know, every -- everybody has got an opinion about things. I have had, in the last week -- a couple of weeks, I guess -- the "National Review," the "Wall Street Journal," "Investors Business Daily" twice, "Time" magazine...

J. THOMPSON: The "Washington Post".

F. THOMPSON: The "Washington Post". The...

J. THOMPSON: Even "The New York Times".

F. THOMPSON: "The New York Times"...

J. THOMPSON: Bless their hearts.

F. THOMPSON: ...all comment on the proposals that I've been making -- my military proposal, my Social Security proposal, the tax proposal, saying that it was setting -- in some cases -- it was setting the standard for the other Republican candidates and I wish they'd come forth with the same sort of specificity and so forth.

KING: Huh.

F. THOMPSON: But there's always something that you're doing wrong. And most of the attention these days is on process. We got into it because of these issues. We got into it because of the future of the country. And we fight real hard to get the attention of those who want to listen to serious issues. Most people don't. Most people want to talk about the process of how you get there and who's ahead in the dog race at the particular moment.

KING: We're going to be seeing lots more of you, Fred. F. THOMPSON: I hope so.

KING: Good seeing you, again.

F. THOMPSON: Thank you.

KING: Jeri, it was great meeting you.

J. THOMPSON: Thank you.

KING: Senator Fred Thompson and Jeri Thompson.

Coming up, the heat just got hotter on a suspect in Stacy Peterson's disappearance and her presumed death. It's her husband, Drew.

We'll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he believes that he helped you dispose of your wife's body.

Can you at least respond to that?



PETERSON: No response. Talk to my lawyer. I've got nothing to say about it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No truth to it whatsoever?

PETERSON: None. Nobody helped me with anything.



KING: Welcome back.

Stacy Peterson, a 23-year-old mother of two, was reported missing on October 29 -- the morning after she failed to show up at her relatives' home. Illinois state police have named her husband Drew a suspect in his previous wife's disappearance. Drew, who is 53, was a local police sergeant. He has since resigned.

We have major discussions on all of this for the remainder of the program. We start in Chicago with Kyle Toutges, who is Stacy Peterson's uncle.

In Rockford, Illinois, Sue Doman. Her sister, Kathleen Savio, was married to Drew Peterson. Kathleen's death is now being investigated.

And in Modesto, California, an old friend, Ron Grantski, the stepfather of Laci Peterson, whose association is obvious. Laci, his daughter -- stepdaughter -- went missing five years ago Christmas Eve. And just the oddity of having the same name.

Any progress, Kyle, into whether they're going to bring charges at all?

KYLE TOUTGES, STACY PETERSON'S UNCLE: It's moving a little slow, but they just want to make sure they have everything before they arrest him.

KING: Why do you think -- why do you think he did it?

TOUTGEN: Because he had threatened to do it. I mean he had threatened other people that he could do it.

KING: Had you spoken to your niece much?

TOUTGEN: Yes, I have a picture here from Columbus Day. We had a birthday party for my son there.

KING: Did she fear -- did she express fear to you?

TOUTGEN: No, not really fear to me, no. But there was an incident where he didn't believe that she was at where she said she was at.

KING: He was jealous, right?


KING: Did you -- do you know Drew very well.

TOUTGEN: Not that well, just Thanksgiving, Christmas and here and there.

KING: All right, Sue, your sister was married to Drew. She -- her death is now being investigated.

Did they exhume the body?

SUE DOMAN, SISTER KATHLEEN SAVIO DIED SUDDENLY AFTER DIVORCE FROM PETERSON: Yes, they did, Larry. We hired Dr. Baden to go ahead and do the autopsy. He did an excellent job. He talked to us for about an hour-and-a-half and discussed what he would be looking for. And he actually wanted to know time lines and everything, that -- if we had any other information to help him with that.

It was about three hours later he came back and he did tell us that it was a homicide and that she did struggle. And she was placed in the bathtub.

KING: So you suspect the worst in the disappearance of Stacy?

DOMAN: Yes, I do. Yes.

KING: What can you tell us about Drew? DOMAN: We've always had suspicions on Drew. You know, like I had said to everyone else, we always believed that it was not an accident. I just hope to God that they find Stacy alive, but my doubts are not very good, especially with a man like him.

KING: Did your sister express fears about him?

DOMAN: Yes, Larry, she did. She told everyone -- everyone that he was going to kill her and it was going to look like an accident. The Thursday before she passed away, she called me. And she was crying and she was upset. And she said, "I don't think I'm going to make it."

And I said, "Well, what's the matter?"

And she said, "I think he's going to kill me and it's going to look like an accident."

You know, as -- the settlement would have been two weeks at that time.

KING: And now we understand that the stepbrother of Drew is claiming that he may have inadvertently assisted in getting rid of the body, right?


DOMAN: Yes, that's what I hear. Yes. Yes.

KING: And helping him carry a pack of -- some sort of bundle out the night she went missing.

DOMAN: Right. Right. Exactly. Yes.

KING: Ron Grantski, how do you react to all of this?

I mean you lived through a similar circumstance.

RON GRANTSKI, LACI PETERSON'S STEPFATHER: It's -- it's just, what a shame.

First, I want to give my condolences to the families.

TOUTGEN: Thank you.

GRANTSKI: It's just a shame we go through this. But I cannot believe that somebody should have called his Morphey or confronted him or something, which might have helped in this situation. And it's just kind of amazing. I've seen him on TV a couple of times and it's amazing how his personality resembles another Peterson I know.

KING: Oh, you see a similarity between him and Scott, who's in prison now awaiting the death sentence?

GRANTSKI: His personality, just listening to the way he talked and nonchalantly and with humor and like it was no big deal, like he was above this or beyond it. And, Larry... DOMAN: And, Larry, if I can say something?

KING: Sure.

DOMAN: My sister -- my sister did go to the chief of police. It was pretty much put to the side. She did go to everyone that would listen. She wrote to the state's attorney. She tried everything and no one would listen to her. Drew had everyone convinced that she was crazy and it was just another joke with her.

TOUTGEN: That's what he told us -- she was crazy.

KING: Wow!

GRANTSKI: That's a real shame.

KING: We're going to take a break.

GRANTSKI: I'm sorry to hear that.

KING: Kyle and Sue and Ron will be coming back with us.

DOMAN: Take care.

KING: When we come back, they'll be rejoining us out there. Don't go away.

But when we come back, we're going to meet Kyle Piry, the former fiance of Drew Peterson. And we're also going to hear from Drew Peterson's attorney. That's all next.

Don't go away.


RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If Drew Peterson killed his wife, did he have help getting rid of the body?

Bizarre new allegations indicate his stepbrother, Thomas Morphey, may have unwittingly helped him. Investigators have been quoted saying Morphey believes Stacy Peterson may have been inside the large blue plastic container he helped Drew remove from the home the day she vanished.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A close friend of Stacy Peterson's family said searchers had been told weeks ago to look for a blue container. State police won't talk about the investigation.

PAMELA BOSCO, STACY PETERSON FAMILY SPOKESWOMAN: We did suspect that probably somebody did help with this container. We heard that three weeks ago, we always suspected that might have been the case. We always have questions about what happened with that container, who helped him with it after that.


KING: Joining us now in Chicago is Kyle Piry, the former fiancee of Drew Peterson. Also in Chicago is Joe Brodsky, the attorney for Joe Peterson.

Before we talk with Joe, Kyle, what do you make of this whole story?

KYLE PIRY, DREW PETERSON'S FORMER FIANCEE: I see some of the similarities and stories from Stacy and Kathleen, some of the things that Drew did or has said, similar to things that I had experienced when we were engaged.

KING: Was that the reason you broke the engagement?

PIRY: Yes, I broke it off basically because he was extremely controlling and would say mean-spirited things, would follow me, that sort of thing. So that's basically at that point I was only 20 years old and he was 27. So I just felt like it wasn't a relationship that I wanted to get into.

KING: Did he ever threaten you?

PIRY: He never threatened to -- no, actually he never threatened me. He did -- after I had broken up with him, he did in one instance I did go back to get some of my things and it did grow into a confrontation where he pushed me over a coffee table and had the same sort of experience where I called the police department and having them kind of, you know, the policemen they had sent over was one of his friends so he at that time told me that he was upset and let's just let it go and unfortunately I did.

KING: Joe Brodsky, as the attorney for Drew Peterson, one of the problems in a case like this where so much attention is given, is there's almost a presumption of guilt, right?

JOE BRODSKY, DREW PETERSON ATTORNEY: Yes. And it goes counter to the American justice system. I find that this trial by rumor and speculation and innuendo, it is disturbing, it really is.

KING: And what do you do about it as a lawyer?

BRODSKY: Well, as a lawyer in analyzing what I have been hearing all over as a lawyer, the one conclusion I come to and my colleagues come to is that there isn't one shred of evidence that is admissible in a court of law that's been brought forth, not one. And that reads the conclusion of what we're left with is to try this man by innuendo and rumor and matters that took place over a quarter century ago, and that's really unfair.

KING: What does he tell you? Does he say he's innocent? BRODSKY: Absolutely. I mean so many things differ from what you hear in the media. For example, with Kyle, he tells me that he's the one that broke up with Kyle. Now with all due respect to Kyle and to Drew, to remember wrapped what happened a quarter century ago is extremely hard. I, after hearing Kyle the first time, I thought back to what occurred in my life 25 years ago and there's probably very significant incidences in my life from 25 years of ago that I have no recollection of. So for her to have these specific recollections is a little bit amazing. Perhaps it is. But Drew has a different set of recollections about what happened a quarter century ago.

KING: Kyle, you have no doubt, right?

PIRY: I have no doubt that he pushed me over a coffee table and I called the police. Absolutely not. Those are not things I would forget.

KING: And that you broke it off?

PIRY: I broke it off, absolutely.

KING: Just this, if you would, Joe, it's been reported that when Drew took his stepbrother Tom home, Tom went and talked to his neighbor about what happened. Here's what the neighbor had to say on the "Today" show.


WALTER MARTINECK JR., DREW PETERSON'S NEIGHBOR: His eyes were sunken in the back of his head. He took me by my shoulders and told my I can't say anything, and he just told me that he thinks he helped dispose of Stacy's body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did he think that he had done that?

MARTINECK: Because when he helped Drew, that's what he told me, when he had helped Drew take something out of the house, it was warm to the touch.


KING: All right, Joe, I would imagine as a good lawyer, you would have asked Drew about that?

BRODSKY: Well, absolutely. And it did not occur. Tomas Morphy (ph) is a very troubled individual. In looking at his past, he has multiple psychiatric admissions, he has multiple DUI convictions. His wife, by the way, Tom Morphy's wife vanished 10, 12 years ago without a trace.

So when you look at this individual, you really have to wonder how credible of a witness he is. And the fact that he may are repeated something to a neighbor doesn't make him any more credible. He's just a troubled individual. And his story doesn't seem to make sense because we're talking -- people talk about moving a barrel, and then the barrel becomes a tub and then the tub becomes a tote bag. In fact, the state's attorney in Will County has so much trouble in his testimony that they haven't taken him before the grand jury because of what has been reported about his memory lapses that have occurred.

KING: I got you. Will Drew take a lie detector test?

BRODSKY: No. I belong to an organization called the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and they commissioned a study that appeared in their magazine about a year ago and it talked about the statistical reliability of lie detector tests. And the conclusion they came to was that a lie detector test is about as statistically reliable as flipping a coin. So if you ask him to take a lie detector test, you might as well ask him to flip a coin, it's just as reliable. So no, he won't take a lie detector test.

KING: Thank you both very much. Kyle Piry and Joe Brodsky, we'll be calling on you again and we hope that this whole story unravels and we do hope that no one is convicted by television. We'll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for Stacy continues. The FBI has searchers focused specifically on waterways. Officials say her body may have been dumped in the water based on cell phone calls placed from that area. Meanwhile Drew Peterson remains free. Police say he's a suspect but he's denied doing anything wrong and hasn't been charged. He's resigned from his job with the Bolingbrook P.D. and in his free time continues his strange behavior.



KING: Our panel remains. Kyle Toutges, Sue Doman, Ron Grantski and Kyle Piry from the last segment remains as well. Is a search still going on, Kyle, do you know?

TOUTGES: Yeah, we're still looking, we're going to be out there tomorrow. We're not giving up until we find Stacy.

KING: So that hasn't ended?


KING: So why, Sue, do you think she didn't leave?

DOMAN: I believe that she didn't leave because I think that Drew probably threatened her. I'm sure that that's what happened. And he probably did something to her.

KING: And one of the puzzling aspects of your case, Ron, was that Laci was not a tortured wife, was she?

GRANTSKI: No, not to anyone in our family. Our family and friends, nobody knew. No one said a word about her having any problems. Because naturally it wouldn't have -- she wouldn't have had that problem.

KING: Yeah. Which made it a bigger puzzlement. Kyle Piry, why do you think Stacy didn't leave. You left.

PIRY: Well, I don't know Stacy well enough to try to figure that out. I don't know. I can't say for her.

KING: Kyle, have you talked to Drew since your niece went missing?

TOUTGES: Me personally? No.

KING: Have you thought about calling him, talking to him?



TOUTGES: No. You tend not to hang around people that threaten you.

KING: So you don't think you would have learned anything?

TOUTGES: No, I don't think so.

KING: Sue, would you -- do you think you would have talked to him?

DOMAN: Not at all. I wouldn't believe anything that he said anyway, I have a lot of anger towards him. Absolutely not.

KING: Ron, is all this to you, for want of a better word, normal?

GRANTSKI: No, not at all. No, I don't think so. Not in my house. Our people, our family would probably be getting very irate with this Mr. Peterson. Has he ever been out on a search looking for his wife?

TOUTGES: I have. He hasn't.

GRANTSKI: Has Drew Peterson been out looking?


GRANTSKI: I wonder why that is.

TOUTGES: Because the cameras would follow him around, is what he said.

DOMAN: But yet he can pose around in front of the cameras.


GRANTSKI: Yeah, that's my point. I would think that if he's looking for his wife, that would be a good thing not a bad thing.

TOUTGES: Exactly.

KING: That's weird. Let me get a break and we'll come back with more on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Stay right there.

Coming next week, it doesn't get any bigger than this. Brad Pitt will be here Wednesday. You'll want to see and hear what the superstar is up to these days. That's LARRY KING LIVE, Wednesday.


KING: We're back, Anderson Cooper was supposed to be off today. We were supposed to have a taped show on earlier tonight. And he was going to do AC 360 I gather in New York in advance of a big special next week. But no, he's in Rochester, New Hampshire freezing. And today was not a slow news day, right?

ANDERSOJN COOPER, CNN HOST: Yeah, it was quite a day in Rochester. We're going to be live tonight at the top of the hour from Rochester. It is a small town that for about five hours today was being watched by the entire country if not many around the world. That's because this man, Lee Eisenberg walked into Hillary Clinton's campaign office, said he had a bomb strapped to his body. And took four people hostage. This situation ended peacefully a few hours ago, we're happy to report.

But it's raising a lot of questions we're going to try and answer. And we're now getting new information on Eisenberg and it is a portrait of a very troubled man. Plus police tonight think they have broken open the Sean Taylor murder mystery. Four men now in custody. Very surprising information about them just coming out. We'll have that. It's a very busy tonight, we'll see you at the top of the hour on 360.

We'll also remember the life and legend of Evel Knievel.

KING: Thank you, Anderson. Quite a guy, I knew Evel very well. Kyle, Sue and Ron Romaine with us. We're now joined in New York by Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, author of "Till Death Do Us Part."

And in Miami Dr. Michael Hunter, forensic pathologist. Overall Dr. Ludwig, without assuming anybody's guilty, what is your read on something like this?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, Drew Peterson seems to be like an abusive husband. I would put him under the controlling category. He's quite problematic, I mean what we know about abusive husbands is they only get worse. And they have a real need to feel good about themselves and they do this by abusing their wives and so it's just really a dangerous situation, a time bomb waiting to happen and the fact that he's a police officer can just exacerbate the problem because they're able to hide what they're doing a little bit easier than other people might be able to.

KING: But all abusers aren't murders. LUDWIG: No. And that's the difficult here, it sometimes is very hard to predict who actually will end up becoming a murder because not all abusers are murders, but if you look at the history of people who kill their wives, they are abusive or neglectful if you look at their history in hindsight, but it's very hard to predict these things, virtually impossible.

KING: Dr. Hunter, Kathleen Savio, his previous ex-wife was exhumed and Dr. Michael Baden says it was not an accident. What do you use to determine that? Since the original autopsy pronounced it an accidental death.

MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, I think the initial manner of death here is inaccurate. This should never have been classified as an accidental death. A young woman who has no known natural disease simply doesn't drown in a bathtub.

Now with a history of a domestic violence, the first deputy who came on to that scene should have handled this as a homicide straight away. There should have been someone from the attorney's office there, the state attorney's office to look at this. The coroner should been there, there should have been a lot of bells to look at this case closely.

Now as far as an exhumation, it's hard to say what you're going to find differently than in the first exam, but even if you don't find the blunt injuries and so forth that you might typically associate with an assault, the drowning of a person like this has to be looked at as a homicidal case.

KING: Is it true, Kyle, or do you know if Stacy had asked for a divorce?

TOUTGES: I know she was planning on it.

KING: Planning on it.

TOUTGES: Planning on it, yes. She was going to go Monday, that was her plans.

KING: Do you have advice, Ron, to the relatives when you're waiting out something like a missing person?

GRANTSKI: Well, first of all, it's never going to be easy, especially when you're waiting for word on a loved one and you're waiting for the worst but hoping for the best, you just have to be close to each other, if there's anything you can think of that would help, either to find her or that would make it easier for the police in their search or their case, write it down. And always try to remember dates. But just stick together.

KING: Yeah. Sue, when Kathleen died, did you suspect foul play?

DOMAN: Yes, definitely, yes. Yes.

KING: Did you bring that protest to anyone? Did you say to the examiner, let's look at this again?

DOMAN: I actually did talk to the coroner over the phones many times and he said that they were looking at everything and he said that -- I asked him, I said, well were things moved around in the bathtub to look like maybe there was a fight or something? He said, you know, that's funny, everything was in place. What does that have to do with anything? When someone would do that, they could have put that stuff in place. It has nothing to do with the body. I just felt like he was very informant (ph).

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments on this puzzlement. Don't go away.


MARTINECK: Drew's a very powerful person and he could do -- he could do anything from what I was told.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The allegations keep flying against Drew Peterson. Appearing on the "Today" show, 40 year old Walter Martineck, a long time friend to one of Drew Peterson's relatives claims a relative told him that on October 28, the day Stacy Peterson disappeared, that Drew paid him to help move a large rectangular container that was warm to the touch from a bedroom in the couple's home to Drew's SUV.



KING: We're back with our remaining moments, we understand Ron Grantski had something to say. Ron?

GRANTSKI: It's just happens to be five years for us. And we're going into the holidays and as most people know, it's a tough time and we also have our memorial ride tomorrow, our Laci and Connor memorial ride. And after all that being said, I hope you folks there can struggle through this because it will be a struggle and try to help out each other and understand that each one of you are different, you're all going to react to this differently. Just be there for one another.

KING: Dr. Ludwig, isn't that the hardest part, when someone's missing and you don't know?

LUDWIG: Yeah, it is really hard because part of what helps us come to terms with grief is actually to see the body and for people who agree without ever seeing a body, they have this undying fantasy that somehow their family member will walk through the door. So grieving is tough, no matter what. But it's particularly difficult if you don't have that visual symbol that the person is not with us anymore.

KING: Is it possible, Dr. Hunter that a seasoned police officer knows how to get away with something? HUNTER: You know, I think you're right. I think in law enforcement, you certainly learn things that can benefit you if you want to get away with it, and maybe that's what's happened here.

KING: Do you have any hope for Stacy, Kyle.

TOUTGES: We still hope, but we doubt. I mean we really have our doubts.

KING: Sue, would you have your doubts too?

DOMAN: I do have my doubts too. Yeah, I do. I'm so sorry about that, too.

TOUTGES: It's not your fault.

KING: Yeah, you didn't do anything wrong. Now let's hope that we resolve this and come to an answer.

TOUTGES: That's why we're here tonight.

DOMAN: Larry? You know - Larry?

KING: Yeah, go ahead, Sue.

DOMAN: You know, I think that, you know, if the police would have did something with my sister, if there was some kind of punishment for him or taking his gun away or something, maybe this wouldn't have happened to my sister or Stacy. You know?

KING: Thank you all very much.

DOMAN: It's horrible.

TOUTGES: I agree about that.

KING: We wish you nothing but the best.

DOMAN: Thank you.

KING: A friend of mine, Evel Knievel who appeared on many of my programs in the past passed away today. If you looked up daredevil in the dictionary area you would get a picture of, Evel Knievel. He lived as he was and was as he lived. He was a super person who defied death and loved doing it. Our condolences go out to his wonderful sister Loretta and the rest of the Knievel family.

We understand burial will be in Butte, Montana, his birthplace. As always, by the way, check out our Web site, You can download our current podcast. Joel Osteen. Participate in a quick vote or e-mail upcoming guest. And don't forget, you can send guests a video question from your Web cam. That's all at and Sunday night we'll look at some CNN Heroes. That's in advance of next week's big Hero show on CNN and next week a prime time exclusive with Brad Pitt.

And there's still time to send Brad an e-mail.