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CNN Larry King Live

Interview with Mike Huckabee and Chuck Norris; Dan Fogelberg Remembered

Aired December 17, 2007 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the GOP frontrunner and his not so secret weapon.



KING: Mike Huckabee wants to be president. Chuck Norris supports him.

Is he Huckabee's Oprah?

And the Baptist minister and the martial arts master knock out the competition.

And then later, the untimely death of musician Dan Fogelberg from prostate cancer. Graham Nash and Joe Walsh remember their friend, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

It's a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE the Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, the former governor of Arkansas.

You want to comment on Fidel Castro's announcement that he is not going to hang around?

HUCKABEE: You know, it's kind of hard to believe he's not going to hang around. He's been hanging around since the late 1950s. I was a little, bitty boy -- not even aware of what was going on -- and he's been hanging on and hanging on.

The bad thing is even if he gives it up, if his brother gets it, we're not going to see any significant changes. So that's the bad news for the people of Cuba.

KING: Mike, do you think about changing the way we treat Cuba or would you keep the embargo and not (INAUDIBLE)...

HUCKABEE: I think we have to keep the embargo right now. You know, there was a time early, when I was just governor and thinking about rice imports to Cuba, that, gosh, it would be good for our rice markets. But if you look at the oppression that happened to the people of Cuba, lifting the embargo is almost a reward for that. And I don't think you can do it.

KING: Are you surprised at where you are in this campaign, frankly?

HUCKABEE: In some ways, I am, Larry. I mean there's certainly been this surge of the last six weeks, and it's been a very exciting thing. But the other side of it, I always believed that we would get here.

KING: You did?

HUCKABEE: You don't run for president because you think you're going to lose.

KING: Did you think...

HUCKABEE: You don't run for president and think that well, no one is ever going to believe me or support me.

KING: But didn't you look at the opposition and say this is pretty formidable?

HUCKABEE: Certainly I did. But I also believe that in America, anything can happen. That's why I'm here, because I believe from the beginning that ultimately the people would choose a president not based on how much of a checkbook he could wave in their face, but what kind of ideas he could put forward and whether or not the people believed that there was need for change in this country and a different kind of leadership.

KING: Let's run some things down.

You criticized the Bush administration's foreign policy for "an arrogant bunker mentality."

And yesterday Governor Romney said you should apologize to President Bush.

Will you?

HUCKABEE: Well, of course not. One of the things about being president, you have to stand on your own two legs. If you're going to run for president, you can't just say oh, by the way, everything everybody else has done is perfectly fine. That's not what people are looking for in a president. They're looking for someone who will say there are some things we've done that haven't been right.

I love the president personally. I think he's done far more things right than he's done wrong. I campaigned for him every time he ran. I've agreed with him more than I've disagreed with him. But when I disagree with him, I need to be honest about it.

And here's the point that I wanted make with that. I didn't say that the president was arrogant, but I said that the policies have been that way.

Let me give you an example of that...

KING: But he makes the policy, doesn't he?

HUCKABEE: But -- well, let me mention what I think has happened. When you go into a war, the key thing is, first of all, you have a very clear, definable objective as to what you're going to do when you get into that war and when you know you're going to win it.

Secondly, you go in with overwhelming force. You go in with a sense of what we have often called the shock and awe -- but overwhelming force -- military superiority against your enemy.

And, third, once you engage, you don't allow the politicians to second guess the military commanders who are on the battlefield and you make sure they have the resources they need. Now, that's really the Powell and Schwarzkopf kind of doctrine, and I think that's the right one.

KING: But the civilians run the show.

HUCKABEE: The civilians should make the major policy decisions of whether we should go to war. But once we commit and define the objective, you have to allow those on the battlefield -- those who have, as I say, the medals on their chest and the blood on their boots -- they have to be the ones who -- to whom you entrust the ultimate way that battle is waged.

KING: Were you surprised at Senator Lieberman's endorsement of John McCain today?

HUCKABEE: In a way. I think it was great news for John McCain and I congratulate him for it. I wish I had had that endorsement. I think anybody would. Sometimes when people get endorsements, the people who didn't get them, I think, are a bit disingenuous and they say, oh, well, I didn't need that endorsement. They don't mean anything. Of course, if I get the endorsement, it's the biggest thing that ever happened.

So the reality is it was a big thing and it was a very gracious thing for Senator Lieberman to do -- somebody I have great respect for.

Senator McCain is basking in several of those. But Senator McCain is a good and honorable man and deserves some endorsements. I just don't want him to be president, because I want to be.

KING: You mentioned that you've supported President Bush and endorsed him and ran for him, etc. -- ran with him.


KING: Would you want him to run with you?

HUCKABEE: Sure. I would be very happy for...

KING: You'd like him to go around the country with you? HUCKABEE: I would be happy for him to. It would bring some gravitas to the campaign. Now, I don't know what...

KING: Even though his popularity rating is low?

HUCKABEE: He's still the president of the United States and I still have great respect for him. I don't have to agree with a person all the time. My wife doesn't agree with me on a lot of things, as well, Larry.


HUCKABEE: So -- we stay together. We've been together nearly 34 years now.

KING: Mitt Romney hits you -- hitting you with a new ad today pretty hard on your record of -- in crime as governor of Arkansas. We're going to watch part of it.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two pro-life governors -- both support a constitutional amendment to protect traditional marriage.

The difference?

Romney got tough on drugs like meth. He never pardoned a single criminal.

And Mike Huckabee?

He granted 1,033 pardons and commutations, including 12 convicted murderers.


HUCKABEE: Well, first of all...

KING: That's the question.

HUCKABEE: Yes. First of all, I did something that Governor Romney nor any other person running for president ever had to do -- I carried out the death penalty. You're not soft on crime when you do that. And I did it more than any governor in the history of my state. The crime rates in my state went down, not up, during the time.

And an interesting thing, when he talks about the meth penalties. Maybe he needs to go back and check Massachusetts, because the meth penalties in Arkansas are actually twice what they are in Massachusetts. So if you get caught for methamphetamine as a dealer in Massachusetts, the maximum penalty is five years. In Arkansas, it's 10.

For him to say that we've made it easy on the meth dealers is really a mistake or an outright just distortion of the truth.

KING: Are you angry at that ad?

HUCKABEE: No, I'm not angry because this is politics. You're running for president, this isn't being bad (ph). I made statement in a book I wrote and I said that if you can't stand the sight of your own blood, best that you buy a ticket and sit in the stands and watch it from a distance, because this is a full contact sport.

Now, here's what, I think. He's running a lot of negative ads. The post office these days normally would get their business from Christmas cards. Unfortunately right now, people in Iowa and New Hampshire are going to their mailbox not for their goodwill and peace on earth, but for the poison messages that they're getting against me from political opponents. I have to believe, Larry, at some point that's counter-productive I'm betting the farm on it.

I'm not running negative ads. In fact, I think that people are so sick of that -- that they don't want to elect a president because he has been able to disable his opponents. I think people want a president who can talk about what could be right with this nation with the right kind of leadership. And if they don't want that, they'll pick somebody else.

KING: You think the ad is unfair?

HUCKABEE: Well, it's just not true. And here's another...

KING: And it's not fair?

HUCKABEE: It's not fair. But if you want to play fair, do something where there's a referee in striped shirts. Politics, again, is pretty out there. I don't have to play it that way but I can't keep other people from playing it that way.

Let me mention one other thing. You talked about the commutations. I was a governor a long time -- 10 1/2 years. I took that job so seriously that when those commutations came across my desk, I looked at every single one of them. And I looked at it not with how would this be for my political future, because I'll tell you, if I had looked at it that way, I would have never have given a one of them, ever. There's never, never an up side to it.

But if you do your job, you will find that there was a 17-year old girl who wrote a hot check and now she's 35, and that hot check, put on her record so that now -- because of the background checks that are required for someone working in a nursing home -- she can't get a job emptying a bedpan.

So let me ask you, do you think we ought to keep her out of the workforce for the rest of her life?

KING: And was it recommended by the parole board?

HUCKABEE: Yes, it was.

KING: Let me get me get a break and come right back with Mike Huckabee.

Chuck Norris will be joining us.

Don't go away.


HUCKABEE: You know, when you get attacked, it's not always bad. Like my old pastor used to tell me, when they're kicking you in the rear, it's just proving you're still out front.



KING: We're back with Governor Mike Huckabee.

What part, if any, should religion play in a presidential race?

Why would it matter if someone is Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, atheist?

What does it matter?

HUCKABEE: It really doesn't matter, other than as long as you're consistent with your own faith. If I said to people, I'm a Christian, and then lived anything but that, then it would matter because people would know that I was basically disingenuous.

KING: But what you are is immaterial.

HUCKABEE: It's immaterial. I want to make clear -- a lot of people have thought that I tried to make that you needed to be a certain faith. I think what a person is is immaterial to whether they should be elected president as long as what they claim to be is consistent with the rest of their life. That's the only thing that ought to matter.

KING: Do you think this is a Christian nation?

HUCKABEE: It's really a secular nation that has Christian underpinnings and Judeo-Christian roots. Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments. Our founding fathers clearly had spiritual guidance. They believed this nation was founded on the notion that our rights come from God, that those are inalienable rights -- which means nobody can take them from us. They even define what they are -- life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. They said they were rights that were endowed by our creator. So they had that understanding.

But what they never wanted to do was to dictate how that had to play out.

KING: Right. They didn't put...

HUCKABEE: That was the difference.

KING: They didn't put God in the Constitution.

HUCKABEE: They didn't. It was implicit within the Constitution that they relied back on the Declaration of Independence. But the basic concept of the First Amendment is that you neither prefer one religion over another or prohibit one.

KING: Now, let's clear up, you said in the article "The New York Times:" "Didn't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

I have no idea what this has to do with being president, but do you want to clear that up?

HUCKABEE: Well, it has nothing to do and I apologize for that remark. The reason it even was in the article was it was in the course of a conversation with a reporter. Frankly, he knew more about the Mormon faith than I did. I think people thought that I was trying to land a punch and I wasn't. It was an honest conversation -- 10 words out of an 8,100-word story. The Associated Press picked it up and highlighted it and it became this national news phenomenon...

KING: Well...

HUCKABEE: And I regret it. And I went to Mitt Romney afterward, when we were in the debate in Des Moines, and I said, "Mitt, I want to tell you, I apologize. I understand that hurt you and made you feel that I was saying something about your religion. I'm not. I don't particularly care for people attacking my Baptist faith. I'm not attacking yours. And I was simply asking a question. And I apologize. And I would not hurt or offend somebody else's faith."

KING: You've said that you do not believe in evolution. That being a given, how would you deal with the teaching of it in the classroom?

HUCKABEE: The same way I did as a parent, the same way I did as a governor. I don't get into that. I'm not a science teacher. I don't write the curriculum for the science books.

My kids, Larry, went to the public schools of Arkansas. I was the first governor in 50 years whose kids had all of their first through 12th grade education in the Arkansas public schools.

So, you know, when people say oh, what is he going to do to the textbooks -- well, if I was going to do it, I would have done it when I was governor. Presidents have nothing to do with the curriculum of education.

KING: Right.

HUCKABEE: The one thing I would like to do...

KING: They have nothing do with abortion, do they?

HUCKABEE: Well, they could.


HUCKABEE: ...if we had a Human Life Amendment that -- that we were able to get to the American people that really would protect the sanctity of human life. But I want to make a point about education. The real education issue that I've been pushing has been to increase music and art instruction. I did it as a governor. That's where my passion was, because I think our education system is failing kids because we're not touching the right side of the brain -- the creative side. We are focusing on the left side.

I'm all about math and science instruction and making sure kids can read. But if kids can't also think about what they're going to do with what they've learned, then we don't have a education system, we have a data download -- which is what we have.

So I was governor long enough -- people can look at my education record and see what we did. I was chairman of the Education Commission to the States and chairman of the National Governor's Association.

KING: Would you change or would you keep don't ask/don't tell?

HUCKABEE: I probably would let the military make that decision. One thing I don't think you need is a president who's trying to tell the military how to run the military, other than set broad policy agenda. The Uniform Code of Military Conduct is the best way to handle that and I would leave it to -- to those who run the military.

KING: Could a gay be in your administration?

HUCKABEE: Absolutely.

Why not?

People are competent because -- not with anything to do with their sexual orientation. I have people who are homosexual that work for me in the governor's office. And it was not a qualification. I think you should never (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Did you get a bad rap on the AIDS thing, when you said that AIDS should be quarantined?

HUCKABEE: Well, and I said I think the word isolated.

And would I say that today?

No, of course not. We know so much more than we did. That was 1992 -- 15 years ago. And I know some would say but we knew it then. But, you know, I talked to medical doctors back then and even who have said this to me now, we said we knew, but we weren't absolutely, positively sure. And the information we were getting was from our government. And, frankly, a lot of people who weren't trusting our government than anymore than are trusting it now.

But would I say that today?

No, I wouldn't, absolutely not, because we do know better now. In fact, I'm committed, as president, to do more to help on both HIV and AIDS funding than we have done in the past, and even include HIV as part of the Medicaid coverage, because it's consistent with the idea it's better to prevent diseases than it is to treat them.

KING: Coming up, we will be joined by movie and TV star Chuck Norris. He's Mike Huckabee's number one booster. Hear what he has to say right after the break.


KING: Remaining with us is Governor Mike Huckabee.

And joining us from Navasota, Texas is Chuck Norris, the actor and major Huckabee supporter.

How come you got involved in this, Chuck?

CHUCK NORRIS, SUPPORTS HUCKABEE CANDIDACY: Well, actually, when I was watching the debates, Larry, you know, all I could see was the Mitt Romney/Rudy Giuliani show, you know?

And Mike Huckabee got very little air time, so I really don't know anything about him. And -- but I was really disappointed with the debates. And so, anyway, I got some e-mails from these young men in Oregon who have a Web site called The Rebelution -- R-E-B-E-L-U-T-I-O- N. And they said we are backing Mike Huckabee and we would sure like for you to check into him.

So I said, well, if these young people are backing him, I've got to find out what this is all about. So I went on the Web site and started checking Mike out and reading articles about him. And the more I read about Mike Huckabee, the more impressed I became with him.

And then, finally, I decided this is the man I want to endorse. So I started writing my weekly articles on "WorldNetDaily" and Mike's group read them and asked me if I would do a promo for him, which I did. And that promo wound up doing a million-and-a-half hits in one day. And -- but that's why I've been on his campaign.

KING: Mike, what's it like having him aboard?

HUCKABEE: It's absolutely wonderful. People, first of all, need to know that Chuck Norris is one of the most gracious and humble people I think I've ever been around. He and his wife Gena are delightful people.

But he's also an icon -- a living legend in America. And so when he goes into the room, people are just -- they're just beside themselves.

And we were up in New Hampshire this weekend at a veterans home, and I don't know who was more excited, the veterans or the nurses and the different people who work there. But many people came up -- their hearts were a-fluttering as they came.

By the way, we tried to mention to them, oh, I'm running for president, too. But don't let me -- but it was wonderful. And Chuck took time with every veteran. He took time with every person. He's one of the most patient people...

KING: And he gets involved, right?

I mean he's...

HUCKABEE: He gets very involved. He'll be with us all through the first part of January.

KING: Norris -- Chuck Norris and Mike Huckabee did a funny ad together.

Let's watch part of it.


HUCKABEE: My plan to secure the border?

Two words -- Chuck Norris.



That's what you're going to do, huh?

HUCKABEE: Well, we...

KING: Send him with a gun.

HUCKABEE: We did this ad. It was funny, Larry, because a lot of people didn't get the whole point. The point was in all of these candidates trying to tell everybody how that if they are elected, they're single-handedly going to save America. Look, nobody is going to do that. So we had some fun with it. It drove a lot of traffic to, our Web site -- I mean more traffic -- we almost burned up our Web server -- more hits on YouTube. I think Chuck mentioned a million-and-a-half in a day. And people started paying attention.

And it also said that, look, the job of being president is very serious. But while we need to take that job seriously, we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously to think that we're running for God instead of running for president.

KING: Chuck, there's a lot of dirt that gets kicked around in politics. And I'm going to ask the pres -- the would-be nominee his thoughts and get your comment, as well, on this involvement of your son.

The issue was raised in "Newsweek" magazine -- allegations that your son David was somehow involved in abusing a stray dog at a Boy Scout camp in 1998. No charges were ever filed. There were suggestions that you may have used your influence to keep the state police from investigating. HUCKABEE: Well, let me categorically say that is absolutely not true. I never used my influence. In fact, if anything, I said treat it like you would anything else. I don't want special treatment for him or against him.

My son was a minor at the time. It was not a criminal issue. It was an issue that was dealt with. But I'll tell you, if it was that bad, why did he get his Eagle Scout award within months of this?

He's now a member of the Vigil, which, Scouts know, that's the highest honor you can have. You know, my son may have not handled the situation as well as he should have...

KING: Did he harm a dog?

HUCKABEE: There was a dog that came in. It was mangy. It looked like it was going to attack. He was a staffer at the camp. They put the dog down. They didn't do a good job of talking to the leaders. The way it was handled was not ideal, but there was no criminal activity. And, more importantly, Larry, my son -- all of this was thoroughly vetted 10 years ago -- 10 years ago, when he was -- again, he was under 18. But he got his Eagle Scout.

And my son is an honorable kid. And I just hated for him because...

KING: Who gave this to "New" -- how did this become a story?

HUCKABEE: You know, there's a lot of political dumpster diving that goes on in the campaign. There are people from campaigns going back to my hometown of Hope. They're all over Little Rock. They're looking for any dirt they can find. And usually they'll find it.

I always say this -- check the source. When the source is somebody that I fired from their job, when the source is someone who didn't get reappointed, you have to wonder, do they have an ax to grind more than they have a country to save?

KING: Chuck Norris, fair or unfair?

NORRIS: It's very unfair. You know, the whole thing is, three months ago, Mike lit a spark that turned into raging fire. The press calls it a surge and the radio calls it the Huckaboom. I call it Mike getting his message out to the people in America, who are liking what they're hearing from Mike.

And I told Mike, I said Mike, be -- get ready, because the dirt's going to start flying.


NORRIS: And I said because any time you get up there and you become a threat to Romney or Giuliani, the dirt is going to fly from every direction. I've been -- you know, in the entertainment field, I've done that. That's why I would never run for politics, Larry...


NORRIS: ...because I'd be choking every opponent unconscious.

And -- but the thing is, is that, you know, Mike has to deal with it. Like he said, he has to let the blood flow. I couldn't do that. I'm not strong enough for that. But I told him be ready, because the dirt's going to fly. Every little nitty-gritty thing they can find, they're going to bring out and make a big deal out of it. And that's what they're doing with his son and all the other things that's going on.

And, but the thing is, people are liking what they're hearing from Mike Huckabee and that's why, with no money -- now, remember, Giuliani and Romney have got all the money in the world to promote. Mike has very little funds. But yet, even though he doesn't, he's getting out there and letting the people know and they're liking him. I'm getting calls all the time, Larry. People said, man, I'm inspired by this Mike Huckabee. Now that I've listened to him, I'm going to back him.

And that's what I'm hearing all the time. And believe me, once he gets the message out to the whole country of America, he's going to be our next president, Larry.

KING: We're going to take a break and be back with more with Chuck Norris and Mike Huckabee on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Don't go away.


KING: We're back with Mike Huckabee and Chuck Norris. By the way, on election night in Iowa, we will be on with the late edition of LARRY KING LIVE at 12:00 Eastern, 9:00 Pacific. Things should be all wrapped up then. A lot of people will be with us, Governor Huckabee included.

People say that you are soft on illegal immigration.

HUCKABEE: Well, not hardly. They can go to my Web site and see a nine-point plan that we put together. It was impressive enough that the founder of the Minutemen Project, Jim Gilchrist, offered his endorsement of me. I think that surprised a lot of people.

KING: He endorsed you?

HUCKABEE: He endorsed me. Yes, he did.

I think we have to look at this as a perspective of first of all, saying, get on our knees every night and thank God that we are in a country people are trying to break into, not break out of. Most Americans aren't angry at the illegals. What they are angry at is their own government for failing to fix the problem.

We ought to have a fenced border. We ought to have a secure border. We should not have amnesty. We should not have sanctuary cities.

KING: What do you do with 14 million?

HUCKABEE: What we're suggesting in our plan is that people would have a window of time, they would have to go back and get in the back of the line in their home country.

KING: Fourteen million go back?

HUCKABEE: You know, they got here, and people can go back.

Here's the point: The government has to do two things -- fix the border, and then create a modernized system, so it doesn't take eight years to stand in the line. That's one of the failures and fallacies of this whole thing.

This can be fixed. The reality is, you can get a credit card application approved in a matter of hours, at most a matter of days. And if this government is so incapable of fixing it, then we can always outsource it to one of the credit card companies. They will figure it out.

KING: The "Newsweek" article also raised -- that we discussed earlier about ethics -- it said, "As governor, Huckabee battled numerous charges that he improperly took cash, expensive clothing, and other gifts from friends and contributors, and that he was sanctioned or fined five times by the Arkansas Ethics Commission." True?

HUCKABEE: Actually, not true.

KING: None of that true?

HUCKABEE: In all of the time, I was never, ever found having received an illegal gift.

Now, the history to this is that in Arkansas, one of the great political weapons is to file an ethics complaint. Most of these were filed during an election year by the opposition party, the Democrats, or by editors of papers who were writing stories, or activists within the Democrat Party or my political opponents.

And some of them were foolish things. For example, it was like a lady had quilted a blanket for us to use at Razorback games, gave it to one of my staffers. We reported it, because that was what we were supposed to do, reported it as a $50 gift, thinking that's what it was. The editor of a paper called and said, "you gave him a gift. How much is it worth?" She said, "I don't know, maybe $200." So the complaint was that we had underreported the worth of a handmade blanket.

So when we tried to go back and say, look, we will just give it back to her, then she said, oh, I guess it really wasn't worth $50. Larry, it's that kind of stuff we dealt with.

I have got a long tenure. I kept getting reelected in Arkansas, not once but four times. People of Arkansas obviously did not believe that there was something that they needed to worry about.

KING: Two terms?

HUCKABEE: Two terms as lieutenant governor and two as governor, but I served two and a half years prior to my two terms as governor, because I, as lieutenant governor, took the job.

KING: Chuck, you think all this fuss came up after he got to be seriously taken?

NORRIS: No doubt in my mind. You know, three months ago, all the contributors to Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney, I believe now are having buyer's remorse. Because they now see the authenticity of Mike Huckabee. And I really believe that a lot of them are swinging over to Mike Huckabee, because they see that he is an authentic guy, and that he is the real deal. And that's why I'm -- believe me, Larry, I'm not backing Mike Huckabee because he's a Christian. I'm backing him up because of the messages he has presented that I believe in, and I thank God he will get that message out to our whole country.

KING: An e-mail from Mary in Maryville, Illinois. This could be for both of you. Mike, who is your hero?

HUCKABEE: I have a lot of them. You know, my parents are my heroes in a lot of ways. The longer I live, the more I know just how much they sacrificed to get me where I am.

You know, I came not from the greatest beginnings. My father was a fireman for the city of Hope, Arkansas. Never had a high school education, nobody upstream, as a male, had ever graduated high school in my family.

On my mother's side of the family, Larry, I'm a generation away from dirt floors, outdoor toilets. I mean, those are my roots.

I love this country, because a kid like me could not only become governor, but actually run for president. And so I think they are my heroes.

KING: You got a hero, Chuck?

NORRIS: Yes. You know, I have a KICKSTART foundation you probably know about, Larry, where...

KING: Yeah, I know.

NORRIS: ... I teach martial arts to at-risk children, and the instructors that are teaching these young people are my heroes.

KING: You play guitar?

HUCKABEE: I play guitar, bass guitar. Have my own band called Capitol Offense. Been playing since I was 11. I love music. Played today, in fact, here in California. Pat Boone was singing, a group of musicians. We were at a home, and he happened to be there. And so we started playing. I picked up the bass guitar, and next thing you know, Pat comes over and grabs the microphone. It was a lot of fun.

KING: Anything you're not enjoying about all this?

HUCKABEE: I would like a little more sleep at night, maybe. Sleep deprivation is not pleasant. And I don't like the attacks at my family. I mean, I understand they are going to come at me, because I'm the candidate, my name is on the ballot. But when they start going after my kids, especially my kids are all grown now -- but when they go after my kids when they were minors, that, to me, is pathetic. I just think that we are not that kind of country that has to tear down somebody's kids in order to get elected to an office.

KING: Chuck, do you think he can win, honest?

NORRIS: Yes, I do. I really do. Because I think once he gets the message across, I really believe he will. And I'll do everything within my power to help make that happen.

KING: Are you prepared for the long haul, Mike?

HUCKABEE: Absolutely. It's been the long haul. You know, when I talked to you before one time on the program about my physical and health transformation and went from a couch potato and then became a runner and a marathoner. Marathoning has thought me a lot. I ran four of them, training for a fifth one. And you learn that it's not about how you start; it's about how you finish. And it takes determination.

I remind myself often of the old saying, it's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog that determines the outcome.

A lot of people across America, Larry, that have grown up like I did, every day of their life is a fight. It's a struggle. And you know something, when you come up like I did, one thing you know, when you look back, there's nothing you want to go back to. You keep your eyes focused on what's ahead.

And that's what a lot of people, I think, underestimate about me. The reason I'm here today and focused and believe I will be there at the finish line is because I look behind me and I say, I don't want to go back there. I know where I want to go, and it's not backwards. It's forwards.

KING: Another man from Hope.

Thank you, Mike.

NORRIS: And Larry, I'd like to say...

KING: Yes, Chuck?

NORRIS: Larry, I would just like to say one thing, is that I don't expect your viewers to vote for Mike Huckabee because I'm saying so. All I would like for them to do is do just like I did, go on the Web site and check out what his messages are, and then decide for yourself, and then you can make that decision in the polling booth. But you need to check him out on this Web site.

KING: Thank you, Chuck. Thank you, Mike.

HUCKABEE: Thank you, Larry.

KING: We will be seeing a lot of you.

HUCKABEE: I appreciate it.

KING: We will talk to you on the 3rd.

HUCKABEE: Thank you.

KING: Who is your choice to be the Republican presidential nominee? That's our quick vote right now on Still time to vote.

Next, musician Dan Fogelberg died yesterday. He knew a lot of big rock stars. Two were Joe Walsh and Graham Nash. They will join us to talk about the untimely death of their friend. We will be right back.


KING: Welcome back. Singer/song writer Dan Fogelberg died Sunday in his home Sunday in Maine after battling prostate cancer. You most likely remember his hits "Leader of the Band" and "Same Auld Lang Syne." he Helped define the soft rock era and he was only 56 years old.

Joining us to talk about Dan Fogelberg and the disease that killed him, in California is Joe Walsh, the famed singer, song writer and guitarist with the Eagles. On the phone is Graham Nash, the legendary singer with the group Crosby, Stills and Nash. In New York is Dr. Dean Ornish, the founder and president of the Nonprofit Preventative Medicine Research Institute. And in Atlanta., our good friend Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent.

Joe, did you know how ill Dan was?

JOE WALSH, THE EAGLES: Yes, I did. I had followed him for some time and -- and it was kind of expected. But it was a sad story.

KING: Did you speak to him fairly recently?

WALSH: No, I sent him an e-mail. He kind of wanted to be private. He went to Maine to be near his doctors, and he just kind of wanted a private life here towards the end.

KING: Graham Nash, how well did you know him?

GRAHAM NASH, CROSBY, STILLS AND NASH: Well, you know, how well do you know anybody, Larry, really? I sang with Danny on a song called "Power of the Plan," which Joe Walsh got me involved with happily, and we sang together at maybe about ten years ago on the tribute to Nickolette Larson (ph), our friend who died and Danny was part of that benefit. I talked to him about a year ago about his disease and he was optimistic. But then afterwards, as Joe said, his e-mails kept coming back with a standard reply that Danny is feeling well and he loves your prayers and good wishes.

KING: Did he kind of disappear from things by going to Maine?

NASH: I think that he realized that his final days were coming and I think he very smartly realized he wanted to fill them with love and family and friends. And I believe that's what he did. I spoke to Irving Azar (ph) this afternoon, who was Danny's good friend and his manager, of course. And Irving told me that his last three years were wonderful for Danny. He built a new house in Maine and he built a new boat for himself.

He married Jeanne, of course. And he filled his days with what he wanted to do, sailing and skiing and good things.

KING: Before we bring in Dr. Ornish and Dr. Gupta, Joe Walsh, how -- how important a musical figure was Dan Fogelberg?

WALSH: Well, he was an amazing song writer. I met him about 1974, as far as I can remember, and here was this really humble kid, undiscovered, with these wonderful songs, and finely crafted songs. And I brought him out to Los Angeles to try to help him do an album, and our whole community kind of took him under our wing. He was really a big influence as a song writer and a musician to us all.

KING: Graham, how would you rate him?

NASH: Well, anyone that can pour out their heart in a song and touch your heart is OK in my book. And Danny was right up there. What person who -- who didn't like "Profound Way?" "Leader of the Band" was a fabulous song. Danny was a great song writer, as Joe says.

KING: We will come back with Joe and Graham and we'll bring in Dr. Ornish and Dr. Gupta to talk about prostate cancer. First, let's check in with Anderson Cooper, the host of "AC 360." Anderson, what's up tonight.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, the top of the hour on 260, endorsement fever. Just about all of the major candidates picked up an endorsement over the weekend, some expected, some not and some just kind of weird. The question is, do any of them really make a difference with the voters and the issues that voters care most about? We will dig deeper on that.

And a far different story tonight, a chilling tale about how one serial killer took what amounted to cop classes so he could out-smart the people who would chase him for years. All that and more, Larry, at the top of the hour on 260.

KING: That's Anderson Cooper, 10:00 eastern, 7:00 pacific. We will be right back. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Dr. Gupta, with all we know about prostate cancer, should no one die of it?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's about between 200,000 and 250,000 cases of prostate cancer every year and about 27,000 people die of it. It's a tough cancer, Larry, because the screening that people talk about, which is PSA test, Prostate Specific Antogen test, just tells you whether there's some sort of abnormality or not. It doesn't tell you how bad the cancer is, how aggressive it is, if it is something that will grow quickly or not.

We are not -- we are not where we should be, in terms of being able to detect it and tell people specifically how this cancer will affect them. So we have learned a lot, but we have a lot more to learn, I guess, in answer to your question.

KING: Dr. Ornish, when we hear that Mr. Fogelberg's was inoperable, that means what, it had spread?

DR. DEAN ORNISH, PREVENTATIVE MEDICINE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: In his case -- I'm not one of his doctors -- but when his diagnosis was occurring, he had an advanced case already, which meant it had already spread. But, you know, prostate cancer is the most common form of cancer. Most men, if they live long enough, will get it. But some kinds don't spread and others do. And we don't really have the tools to determine which are the most dangerous, but if you have what is called a High Gleason score, if your PSA is rising rapidly and if the tumor is large when they first diagnose it, you're more likely to benefit from conventional therapy than others, once it has already spread where it can be more difficult to treat.

KING: Joe Walsh, do you fear it as a male?

WALSH: Yes, I think everybody my age has, you know -- we know that we are not eternal now and I fear -- I fear cancer and all of that. And Danny -- Danny's wish was really to get the word out about early detection. He didn't want anybody to go through what he went through. And that's why I'm here tonight.

ORNISH: Let me build on that for a second, if I may, Larry, because what Joe has said is so important. If you're over 40, you should get a PSA test. As imperfect as it is, it can be helpful. And to give you a hopeful message, in collaboration where Dr. William Ferrer, who was the chair of Urology at Sloan-Kettering here in New York, and Dr. Peter Carroll, the chair at UCSF, we did a randomized trial of men who had early prostate cancer, and we found that those who made intensive changes in their diet and life style were actually able to reduce their PSA. And when we looked at their tumor grown in vitro, we found that it was inhibited by 70 percent, versus only nine percent in the control group.

KING: Michael Milkin a classic example of that. Graham, is it true that one of your band mates has been diagnosed with prostate cancer?

NASH: Yes, it is. It is my friend Stephen --

KING: Is that Stills?

NASH: Unlike Danny, who left it too long to be seriously checked, Stephens found his at an early stage. And he, I believe, is going to be operated on, on his birthday on January 3rd.

KING: And that's Stephen Stills, right?

NASH: Indeed.

KING: He will be operated on January 3rd.

NASH: Yes. And don't forget, it was the very first Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young concert in Chicago in 1969 when Danny, as a 14- year-old kid was sitting in the audience, and made the decision right there and then that he would become a singer/song writer. And the world is a brighter place for his music.

KING: So Dr. Gupta, in a sense, it may not be preventable but it is certainly treatable, right?

GUPTA: Yes, it depends on what stage you catch it. I think that's the message you're trying to send tonight. If you catch it early, it's very treatable. Many men may die with the cancer. And it won't be the cause of their death. But if it is advanced, as was the case here, stage four is what I heard -- so maybe it spread -- it is very difficult to treat at that point. Luckily, because of some of the screening that Dr. Ornish was talking about, we are getting fewer and fewer of those sorts of cases.

The problem, Larry, is though sometimes doctors don't know what to do with a test. They get a PSA test that's high and they say, well, we are not sure this means anything. It may mean a biopsy. It might mean surgery. And all of that could be normal and you sometimes just get a lot of anxiety and no real change in outcome.

KING: As they say, many die with it, not of it. As we go to break, here are some images of people you know, men who tragically lost their battle with prostate cancer.


KING: Those are famous people who had prostate cancer and defeated it, along with Stan Musial and Joe Torre, Rudy Giuliani. Another who died from it was Jerry Orbach. We are in our remaining moments with Joe Walsh, Graham Nash, Dr. Dean Ornish, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Do you think the message will get out, Joe?

WALSH: I certainly hope so. Maybe -- maybe Danny's wishes will start some momentum to get the word out. Because this -- this situation -- it doesn't have to be. If you can catch it in early detection, you stand a really good chance. Dan got lazy with it, and it got the best of him.

KING: Yes. So I'm going to do everything I can in the future.

ORNISH: And not just early detection but also prevention. If you eat really well, if you exercise, if you manage stress, if you have a lot of love in your life, that can really significantly reduce your risk.

KING: Really?

ORNISH: Absolutely.

KING: For more information, the Prostate Cancer Foundation website is That's all one word,, if you want more information. Do you get your checkups, Graham?

NASH: I do indeed. I have them done every year. And let me just leave you with the words to the chorus of the song that I sang on with Danny. It's called "Part of the Plan," and the words are, love when you can, cry when you have to, be who you must; that's a part of the plan. And Danny's life embodied that sentiment completely.

KING: Dr. Gupta, you think we will ever cure it?

GUPTA: I'm very hopeful, Larry, about that, about all kinds of cancer. As you know, this is something I think about all of the time and personally and professionally I have dealt with this. I really hope so. Prostate cancer, luckily, I think we have made a lot of progress. We made a lot of progress with breast cancer. But there's a lot of work to do, Larry.

I was just a conference talking about the X-Prize for cancer over the weekend, talking about all sorts of just mind-boggling things to try to cure this. I think it will happen.

KING: Thanks so much Sanjay. Thanks to all of you, Joe Walsh, Graham Nash, Dr. Dean Ornish, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Don't forget, is the website for more information. If you haven't been to our website lately, check out You can download our current podcast, email up coming guests, participate in our quick votes. If you have a web cam or cell phone, you can even send us a video email. It's all

Now, without further ado, slash to New York, Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?