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CNN Larry King Live
Source: Dr. Murray Gave Jackson Propofol; 911 Caller in Harvard Professor Arrest Disputes Cambridge Police
Aired July 27, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION," GUEST HOST: Tonight, breaking news bombshell in the Michael Jackson case -- his personal doctor administered the powerful anesthetic that authorities believe killed him.
Why did he give Jackson Propofol?
Did he provide it on the day Jackson died?
Is he officially a suspect in the king of pop's death?
Dr. Conrad Murray's lawyers aren't talking tonight, but inside sources are.
Plus, the Gates take -- what did the Harvard professor's neighbor report to police?
Hear her 911 call for yourself, right now on LARRY KING LIVE.
I'm Jim Moret from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in tonight for Larry King.
Joining us to talk about the breaking Jackson news, our CNN's Ted Rowlands and "Extra's" Carlos Diaz -- Ted, first to you.
What can you tell us about the investigation?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: According to a source which is very close to the Jackson family and has knowledge of the ongoing death investigation into Jackson's death, Dr. Conrad Murray, his personal physician, who was with him when he died, administered Propofol or Diprivan to Jackson in a 24 hour period prior to Jackson's death.
It's significant because it's the first time we've connected Dr. Murray to this drug, which we've been talking about a lot the last few weeks. But this is the first confirmation to a source of a connection between Murray and Jackson.
MORET: And, Carlos, this steps up the entire scope of the investigation and the nature of it with respect to Dr. Murray.
CARLOS DIAZ, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": It -- well, it focuses it, you know, on Dr. Murray. And, you know, for the last month, we've been saying that Dr. Murray, you know, is a suspect, although his lawyer has long said that he's not. In fact, his lawyer just issued the statement saying we will not be commenting on rumors, innuendo or unnamed sources.
So, you know, it's one of those situations where now, because of this unnamed source, we're looking at Dr. Conrad Murray more specifically than any other doctor that's being looked at right now. And -- but that's the thing. I mean, it's nothing new that we haven't heard before, it's just who we're hearing it from, which is someone from the Jackson household.
MORET: Ted, do we know where Dr. Murray is, if he's in contact with authorities?
ROWLANDS: We don't know where he is specifically. His lawyers aren't telling us. But, clearly, they're in contact with authorities. In fact, they were supposed to meet for a third time last Friday. But following the search warrant served in Houston, that meeting was "postponed" and they have not yet scheduled another meeting.
But, clearly, they are they are in contact and if they want to talk to Dr. Murray, his lawyers say that he is totally available. Anything they want, they can have. And we should clarify, he is by no means a suspect in this case.
MORET: Right. And as Carlos mentioned, his lawyers have steadfastly maintained his innocence.
You tried to contact his attorneys late this afternoon.
What did they tell you?
ROWLANDS: Basically, that, as Carlos said, they're not going to comment to these what they call rumor, innuendos or sourced reporting. They will not comment from here on out, until the coroner report is out, the toxicology is made public, until they find out what's -- what's in Jackson's body. They're not going to comment on anything unless it comes from an official.
MORET: But it's curious, because they really stepped this thing up last week, because the search warrants were issued and they were the first to come forward saying that they -- the authorities were looking for evidence of a homicide, of manslaughter.
ROWLANDS: Of manslaughter.
MORET: That was -- that was Dr. Murray's own attorney.
ROWLANDS: But they took it from the search warrant. And you could look at it two ways.
Why would their attorneys say, you know, throw out the word manslaughter?
Well, they clearly took the wind out of the sail from a reporter running out of the courthouse and saying, aha, manslaughter. So, you know, I don't read too much into that. It was a bombshell when it came out, but it makes sense from a strategic standpoint.
And they maintain they are cooperating.
DIAZ: And they're getting in front of the story. I mean, the lawyers, you know, are trying to maintain some -- some of normalcy here by saying OK, well, this is what we have to say. And that's why I think it's very telling that today the statement that they've put out is very terse and very -- and very to the point, saying we're not going to comment.
This is the first time the lawyer has said, OK, we're not going to comment on that. And that might be something you'd read into right there.
MORET: And we want to add that Dr. Murray has, throughout all of this, maintained his innocence -- Ted, you said he's not officially a suspect, but he was the subject of a massive search.
ROWLANDS: Yes. And it could be -- there could be more search warrants coming down in connection to this case. But keep in mind, the DEA is working with local police here. And they're looking at everything that Jackson was prescribed and every doctor that administered X, Y or Z.
So this -- that, in itself, makes sense. The glaring thing in that search warrant saying the word manslaughter in terms of when they went to the judge and they said -- they had to get probable cause, obviously. They went to the judge and said we're looking for information that could lead to the crime of manslaughter. So that was eye-opening.
But Murray -- there could be other people still out there and we've got to be real careful to say he's a suspect in a murder or in a homicide when we don't even know what the cause of death is.
MORET: But still, sources now saying that this doctor administered Diprivan or Propofol to Michael Jackson.
Carlos, there were reports of various drugs found in the doctor's room where he was staying at Michael Jackson's mansion. That's significant, as well.
DIAZ: It is significant. It's significant that Dr. Murray was the one who led the authorities there when he was questioned on Saturday night, after the death of Michael Jackson. He basically said there are drugs in this closet, in this room -- drugs that authorities had overlooked. So he's -- he's been very forthcoming and very, you know, outright with saying these are where the drugs were. And they found Diprivan at that time. And that's where the whole Diprivan story started, when they found Diprivan in -- in his home.
MORET: And I want to remind viewers, these are items recovered by investigators from Dr. Murray's house and his storage -- storage unit -- a computer; two hard drives; 27 tablets of a prescription strength appetite suppressant; a tablet of Klonopin, an anti-anxiety medication; some Rolodex cards; a contact list.
Ted, what is the significance of some of these items? We -- we have notices from the IRS, a laundry list of medical and hospital documents.
ROWLANDS: And a couple e-mails to a specific person. We did find out through a source that that individual -- that mystery woman in the e-mails that were confiscated as part of the search warrant is the individual that had a storage locker in her name, not Dr. Murray's name, in Houston, but was using it for Dr. Murray. That's according to a source familiar with the investigation.
Basically, in a case like this, the DEA is involved. And they do this all the time. They know what they're looking for. You've got to think about going into a medical office. It's not like going into a drug dealer's house, where you're looking for anything.
They're looking for very specific things. And that's why it didn't take them long. They went in, got what they needed and left.
MORET: What do the lawyers have to say about all of this?
Find out, because our legal eagles are here to tell us how they would prosecute this case or defend the accused, should it come to that.
MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.
I'm Jim Moret from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in for Larry tonight.
Joining us now, our defense attorneys. Mark Geragos, former Jackson attorney; and Trent Copeland; and Robin Sax, who's former Los Angeles County deputy district attorney and the author of "Predators and Child Molesters." Trent, you're also a CBS legal analyst. I don't want to slight you any.
Robin, first to you, a former deputy DA. You have this evidence now for linking this doctor to using the substance that investigators believe killed Michael Jackson.
As a prosecutor, what do you do with it?
ROBIN SAX, FORMER DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, L.A. COUNTY: I'm thinking I'm filing charges first thing in the morning if I -- if that's the report that I'm actually getting. The only question in my mind is whether it's going to be second degree murder or involuntary manslaughter.
MORET: Many people would say wait a minute. You're jumping the gun. You first have to know where he got the drug.
Did he get it from Michael Jackson?
What do you look at, did he give it to him and that's it, and did it kill him?
SAX: Well, if he was the person that administered this drug and he was the last doctor whop was tending to him and he knows that this drug can only be administered in the hospital, regardless if it was prescribed by someone else, received by someone else -- I'd get those people, too. Don't get me wrong. But first, I would start with Dr. Murray.
MORET: And, Mark, you hear that charges may be filed. You're -- you're the attorney for Dr. Murray.
What do you look for?
We know, for example, that there -- there was problem with some of the evidence. The house wasn't secured.
Do you look at any of that or do you just go...
MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S ONETIME ATTORNEY: You look at everything. You've -- I'm sure that the lawyers have done a parallel investigation at the same time. So while the cops are investigating this, DEA is investigating this. My investigator is out there. I've got a team of investigators that would be out there, if they're -- if they're doing it.
The -- the thing that is going to be probably one of the -- the biggest problems for him is, I think, one of the things we can say definitively that isn't speculation is he did talk to the cops. And he talked to LAPD for hours.
If he talked to them for hours and if he admitted that he was the one who gave Diprivan -- Propofol -- as -- to Michael Jackson and if it's found in the body, the next thing I'm going to do is I'm going to want to, as a defense lawyer, get an expert in there to tell me what's going on, how did that -- how did that interact with Michael Jackson's body?
Because that is going to be exactly where somebody like Robin is going to zone in on.
And she's absolutely correct, any D.A. -- especially the DAs that I suspect are handling this case right now -- are going to take a real hard look at whether this is an implied malice murder case -- a second degree murder case. Because you're going to find doctors everywhere who've been all over saying look, you don't administer Diprivan anywhere outside of a hospital. And unless you've got a hospital setting in that -- in that house itself, that's a real problem.
And that's what's going to give me pause as the defense lawyer.
MORET: So, Trent, this -- this could be a step up, then, from manslaughter and go right to a murder case.
Do -- do you look, if you represent this doctor, and say, wait a minute, this wasn't the only thing in his system. There were other doctors involved. I was simply the guy -- the last guy there. TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes. I mean, you know, the reality is, he's going to have to -- part of his defense is going to have to be, look, I'm the last man standing. I...
MORET: He even said that.
COPELAND: Yes. I am not the guy who either administered this drug, provided this drug or gave him this drug in any shape, form or fashion. And I think that's what's going to be one of the things.
You know, I think, as Mark indicated a second ago, you know, he would have his parallel investigation going on at this point. He'd have a team of -- of investigators looking to some of the very same things that are happening from the DA's perspective.
But the problem with that is, that I don't think that's happening. I mean, he's got a lawyer who's in Texas. He's got a lawyer who now, apparently, has also gotten a lawyer. And so I think when you've got a lawyer who's also getting a lawyer, I think then you've got some problems.
MORET: I've never heard of a lawyer getting a lawyer.
GERAGOS: No, I have. I have.
GERAGOS: And, you know, one of the problems is, somebody comes to me and says, Mark, will you take my antitrust case?
I'm not doing their antitrust case. You go to somebody else and say I want you to take on a high profile situation like this, a criminal case, in a state case -- I mean, I -- I can't tell you the number of inquiries I get on a daily or monthly basis to take cases out of state. If it's a federal case, I'll do it because generally you've got the federal rules of procedure.
But when you're talking about going in, stepping into the middle of an investigation you know very little about, you don't know the intimate culture in Los Angeles and you're going to...
COPELAND: You don't know the players.
GERAGOS: You don't know the players at all. You don't know -- you don't know LAPD, which is -- is saying something. And then you offer up your guy for three-and-a-half hours, I feel for this lawyer in Texas. I mean, he probably took that -- LAPD told him, look, you're not a target, this guy's not a target, we just want to talk to him, it's just an investigation.
Well, you know, as I tell my clients, when you talk to the -- when the cops lie to you, that's -- the Supreme Court says that's OK. You lie to the cops, that's a separate offense.
COPELAND: Not OK.
GERAGOS: That's a criminal offense.
COPELAND: It's not OK.
COPELAND: And, look, and before we even jump the gun on any of these other discussions, part of the analysis has got to be, look, Diprivan found in the house. Diprivan might have been given to Michael Jackson by some other doctor.
Was Diprivan found in his system?
Because, remember, Diprivan is one of those drugs that comes out of your system very quickly. So unless the test was done almost immediately after Michael Jackson's demise, unless that happened very quickly, there may not even be any evidence that Diprivan was in (INAUDIBLE)...
MORET: We're going to hit that in just a minute.
MORET: Also, why hasn't Michael Jackson been buried -- or has he?
We're back in 60 seconds with some answers.
MORET: We're back talking about the latest developments in the Michael Jackson case -- Ted Rowlands, we're still trying to assemble a time line. One thing we do know from Dr. Murray's own statement, he didn't call 911 immediately, like you would suspect someone would. He waited perhaps as much as 30 minutes.
ROWLANDS: Right. And he initially blamed it on the phones in the house that didn't have a direct line out. And his cell phone worked, but he said he knew how to get to the house, but he didn't know the address of the house. So that, he claims, slowed him up.
And then he had to leave Michael Jackson, apparently, and go find the chef to get help. That -- that is concerning in itself.
But again, from their standpoint, through his lawyer, they say this is a medical professional, an M.D. He knows what he's doing. He's performing CPR. He was keeping Michael Jackson alive, according -- according to his...
MORET: And, Carlos, the autopsy report, we're still waiting for that.
MORET: And these reports are still premature, to say that we know what killed Michael Jackson, because we don't.
DIAZ: Right. And you guys are all talking about, you know, when charges are going to be filed. I think the thing we have to look at first is the toxicology report and when it comes back. I mean that's, you know, even though Diprivan could be out of his system, that's going to offer up a much clearer analysis of what killed Michael Jackson.
But talking about a time line, new reports today, of course, that the EMTs showed up and they didn't even know they were working on Michael Jackson. They thought they were working on a sickly old man. It took them 10 minutes to realize they were talk -- they were even working on Michael Jackson after they got there.
And then, of course, other reports today saying today that Dr. Conrad Murray did not at all, you know, reconfirming your earlier reports, did not at all want to pronounce Michael Jackson at the house. He wanted...
MORET: He wanted to make sure he was brought to the hospital.
DIAZ: He wanted him to the hospital and kept performing CPR, which the EMTs thought were strange and they -- they said that, you know, there were reports that he was in the way a lot of times, as well.
ROWLANDS: -- you can look at that and say, oh, because he didn't want to get hit with it. But, on the other hand, he wanted to try to revive this guy, then he's -- that he claimed had a slight pulse just minutes before.
GERAGOS: Right. And I don't think -- I don't think for a second that that's the most -- or damning, necessarily.
Ted's point is absolutely correct. And what he's going to argue, look, you -- when you have EMTs come out, they are there basically to try and stabilize somebody long enough to get them to a doctor.
So if you've got a doctor there, calling 911 so that you can get somebody there to take him to a doctor -- the doctor is there.
If this doctor knows what he's doing and he's charged with taking care of Michael Jackson, that he's the -- he should be there working on Michael Jackson, not calling the chef or anything else.
MORET: Robin, I spoke with one doctor who told me he's seen the second autopsy report.
MORET: He says that there are 19 doctors being investigated. Nineteen.
Let's assume that even half that many are being investigated, wouldn't this doctor say, wait a minute, I'm not alone here. I'm not the bad guy, I'm just the last guy.
SAX: Well, this is the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum defense. It's a lot easier to -- to point both directions. But I still think we need to go back and look at Dr. Conrad Murray's behavior, as you bring up, with the -- the phone calls.
I think there is a ton of consciousness of guilt evidence -- the failure to call 911 right away; the fact Dr. Murray was nowhere to be found at the time that the EMT actually did finally arrive -- or, I'm sorry -- actually transport him to the hospital.
There's behaviors that make you want to question. And when you have a clear ringleader or a clear evidence toward one person, it's a lot easier to start there and then start working down on everybody else.
MORET: Ted, any idea when the burial will take place?
ROWLANDS: No. The family has been very clear that they're not going to tell anybody and that they want this to be a private part of this whole equation. And, clearly, there's probably some discussion and some disagreements as to what to do.
MORET: And they're still waiting for the brain tissue to come back?
We have a lot more to come.
We'll be right back with more on LARRY KING LIVE.
Stay with us.
MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.
I'm Jim Moret with -- from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in for Larry tonight.
There have been so many strange reports coming out of this story, but none, perhaps, more unusual than conflicting reports about whether Michael Jackson died with or without his nose.
This is what Dr. Arnold Klein, Jackson's doctor, said to Larry, King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM JULY 8, 2009)
DR. ARNOLD KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON'S PLASTIC SURGEON: He came to me because, basically, I was sort of rebuilding his face, because he had severe acne scarring. He had scarring from having a lot of cosmetic surgery. And my expertise is, like it is with every one of my patients, my patients are my treasures. And I was rebuilding his face so he looked much more normal.
And in contrary to what people said, he could not take off his nose. His nose was attached. But it looked too small. And I was trying to get him ready to do the concert, because -- and the way he looked, in his face, he wanted to be absolutely as perfect it could be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: Now, one person on our panel has actually represented Michael Jackson, Mark Geragos.
MORET: Mark, I talked to one of Jackson's...
GERAGOS: We're not going to...
MORET: No, no, no.
GERAGOS: We're not going to go there, are we?
MORET: No, no, no, no. I talked to one of Jackson's doctors. He said this is ridiculous.
MORET: Why -- what I'm going to ask you is, why do people care about this?
GERAGOS: Well, because have you seen some of the Internet stuff on this case so far?
I mean it is just the craziest thing I've ever seen.
GERAGOS: And I...
MORET: But with so many important issues...
GERAGOS: They're -- they're -- well, because it's really almost gotten to the -- the point of the absurdity in -- in this. I mean this show, for instance, has been doing -- we speculate every night for the last almost month.
MORET: But and...
GERAGOS: And so, at a certain point, because there is such a -- a kind of a news blackout, anything starts to get speculated on...
MORET: But today's development...
GERAGOS: ...including whether there's a nose or no nose.
MORET: ...you'd agree, Robin, though, today's development is significant?
SAX: Yes, I -- I would agree. I mean, at least from the point of -- from the drug point of view. I don't think the nose point of view is probably the most significant story.
GERAGOS: I would agree with that.
MORET: Trent, Debbie Rowe was seen at Dr. Arnie Klein's office earlier today. We don't know the nature of her visit, whether she was actually seeing Dr. Klein.
You represent Debbie Rowe. She's seeking custody, perhaps, of two of the three children.
Wouldn't you tell her to stay out of the limelight?
COPELAND: Well, I don't know that the fact that she -- she goes to her former employer's office to pay him a visit is -- is putting her in the limelight. I don't that this woman can walk out of her -- out of her house without there being a throng of media following her. So I don't fault her for that.
But what -- what I do fault her for is making these rash statements and comments that she's made to the media, you know, when she's been angry and she's -- she's upset. I mean these aren't the kind of things you want if you want your client to appear to be normal, rational, stable, in a position to care for these -- these young children.
So, you know, look, I don't fault her for that, but I do fault her for some of those outbursts that have come and that have been...
COPELAND: ...principally directed toward the media.
MORET: ...in Debbie's -- Debbie Rowe's defense -- and I don't know her. However, I do know the paparazzi. She was being stalked, for want of a better term.
DIAZ: I mean, you don't know what it's like to be in a paparazzi crush until you're in one. And it is -- I mean it's -- it's dangerous at times, you know?
But I agree with these guys that I mean, when -- when you're basically -- when your character is on trial in the public eye as to whether or not you deserve Prince, Michael and Paris Jackson, you know, and when the only other video we see that week is of Paris on stage saying how much she misses her daddy and then falling into Janet Jackson's arms, you've got to be cognizant of the fact that people are going to put you under the microscope and if you -- if you physically threaten one of the paparazzi, you're still physically...
MORET: Mark is...
DIAZ: ...threatening a person.
MORET: Mark is (INAUDIBLE).
GERAGOS: (INAUDIBLE) come out of my skin. I have been in countless of these paparazzi scrum. And I tell you, it takes the patience of Job to not respond when you get some 14 carat jerkoff who's sitting in there screaming at you, something like they were at Deborah Rowe -- how much to sell your kids, how much are you going to sell them for this time, hey you fat little B, you know.
And they do that. That's what they do. They purposefully try to provoke you. And it takes all...
GERAGOS: ...it takes all the patience of...
GERAGOS: Here's somebody...
COPELAND: But, Mark, she's got to know better.
GERAGOS: Here's somebody who's in...
COPELAND: She's got to know better.
GERAGOS: I understand that.
GERAGOS: She was going out to get something to eat.
MORET: Yes. But she shouldn't be a prisoner in her -- in her own home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, right.
GERAGOS: And what are you supposed to do when you've got people taking you apart, demonizing you?
She's got very good counsel. Eric is a -- is an excellent lawyer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
GERAGOS: And I'm sure he has counseled her. And, frankly, I think for anybody to condemn her for her outburst, I think that's only unreasonable.
For whatever you want to say about her, having to put up with that paparazzi scrum on a constant basis is enough to drive anybody over the top.
MORET: Ted, the custody hearing is set for next Monday.
Is her attorney saying anything whatsoever?
ROWLANDS: No, but -- not publicly, but statements today from Katherine Jackson's attorney very key...
ROWLANDS: ...saying that they are moving ahead. And it looks like this is going to be resolved outside of the courtroom. And Debbie Rowe has never said publicly -- we don't know that she's looking for custody of these children by any stretch of the imagination. I think what she is doing is trying to ensure certain things happen for these kids and that's what they're working out.
MORET: Let's listen to Katherine Jackson's attorney today on "The Today, Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE TODAY SHOW," COURTESY NBC)
L. LONDELL MCMILLAN, ATTORNEY: We do believe that we are -- we are close to reaching an agreement. And this swirling speculation is just swirling speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it a financial agreement, Londell?
MCMILLAN: The agreement is a custody agreement. This -- this -- whatever the agreement will be will not be based on money. That was not the...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But will it involve money?
MCMILLAN: The agreement about custody is not a money issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: We'll get reaction to that and talk more about the custody issue right after this.
Stay with us.
MORET: Back with our panel now.
Let's go to Trent Copeland. Trent, we -- we just heard from Katherine Jackson's attorney, saying they're trying to work something out outside of the courtroom. That's what the judge asked for.
That's really in the best interests of the kids, isn't it?
COPELAND: I think it is in the best interests of -- look, and I know this lawyer and he's a -- he's an outstanding lawyer. And -- and I think that he will probably try to put together some kind of an agreement where both sides can feel like they've gotten something.
And I think Debbie Rowe, from her perspective, may not be looking for custody necessarily, but she may be looking for some kind of custodial right. She may be looking so that she can have an opportunity to see these kids from time to time.
And I -- I take him at his word when he says this is an agreement that won't be based on money.
MORET: And, Mark Geragos, you've been defending Debbie Rowe tonight -- and rightfully so. She -- her lawyer has said she doesn't want money. She -- she doesn't want money. And it's really been cast unfairly toward her, don't you think?
GERAGOS: I mean, there's been -- for years people have kind of vilified her without knowing any of the facts. I don't even know the ins and the outs. I never represented him on custody. I did represent him in what was yet another of the unfounded things against him, the child protective services investigation. That was completely unfounded. Those kids were immensely -- at least the older two I saw interact with him were immensely tied to him, in love with him. He took great care of them.
The kids belong with Katherine. As I said before, if Grace is in the picture, that just gives me more confidence. That's where they belong.
MORET: We're going to take phone calls now. Right now, Houston, Texas. You're on the air.
CALLER: Hi, thank you. Does anyone know what clothes Michael Jackson might have been wearing when the paramedics arrived at his home to take care of him? Because that would be a tell-tale sign that he may not have even left the bed in the morning, and it could have been earlier that he was having trouble.
MORET: We haven't had enough speculation. Mark Geragos is almost laughing. Caller, that's actually a legitimate question. I don't know that anyone knows the answers. Ted, you were at the hospital.
ROWLANDS: We don't know what he was wearing, by any stretch. But one thing we do know is that, according to Murray, through his lawyer, Jackson was in his bed, in his bedroom, and Murray went to check on him. So one could -- he was either taking a nap or hadn't waken up yet for the day.
MORET: Robin Sax, when Mark talks about the crazy insanity surrounding -- investigators are now looking into whether employees at the L.A. County Coroner's Office illegally leaked information about the death certificate, about Jackson investigation personal files. How serious should people take this?
SAX: I think whenever someone leaks information that comes from -- that's privileged, private information that is from within an investigation -- it always jeopardized the integrity of a potential case, the future of the case. And it is something that definitely needs to be looked at thoroughly, if, in fact, that happened.
MORET: We're popular with Houston.
GERAGOS: It's a crime. It's a government code section. Whether it's a cop who does it, or somebody in the coroner's office, or anybody else, I wish they would -- what they need to do is prosecute one or two of these, and it would stop happening. As long as there's outlets that are willing to write a check for 62,000 dollars and 500 for this, that or the other thing, it's going to happen.
MORET: Another call from Houston. Caller, you're on the air.
CALLER: Hi, I have a two-fold question. First, what is the difference between second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter? And if Dr. Murray is found guilty, what are the consequences for both?
GERAGOS: The second-degree murder is what's called an implied malice murder, which means you don't -- you didn't necessarily intend it, you did something so recklessly that it caused the death. The main difference between that and the manslaughter is the penalty. The penalty for manslaughter is two, three or four years in state prison. The penalty for a second-degree implied malice murder is 15 to life.
MORET: Our thanks to Ted Rowlands, Carlos Diaz, Mark Geragos, Trent Copeland, Robin Sax. We'll have reactions from medical professionals, including Michael Jackson's nutritionist. What does she have to say about her files and the subpoena served on her earlier this month? She'll tell us right after the break.
MORET: Welcome back. I'm Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," filling in for Larry King. Tomorrow night, Larry has an exclusive interview with Colin Powell. You will want to stay tuned for that.
Joining us now are Cherilyn Lee, Michael Jackson's nutritionist. She's a registered nurse and family nurse practitioner. Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of VH-1's "Celebrity Rehab," and author of "The Mirror Effect: How Celebrity Narcissism Is Seducing America." He also sat in this chair Friday night. Did an excellent job. Howard C. Samuels is also here. He is executive director of the Wonderland Center, a drug and alcohol rehab facility. He is a recovering cocaine and heroin addict, with 24 years of sobriety. He is also a licensed therapist with a doctorate in clinical psychology.
Thanks to all of you for joining us.
Cherilyn, first to you. I know that early on -- I remember seeing you do an interview with Anderson Cooper early in this investigation. You made a bombshell statement that four days before Michael Jackson died, he called you and was desperate for Diprivan. I remember watching that, thinking she sounds crazy. Yet, within 24 hours, not only did the entire investigation turn around, but you're really, in many ways, the unsung hero of this investigation, because you directed the focus on a drug that would have probably been overlooked. How did all this happen? How did you come to treat Michael Jackson?
CHERILYN LEE, MICHAEL JACKSON'S NUTRITIONIST: I started with him in late January, actually working with his children. I had a call. Someone called and said his children had a little cold. He wanted something nutritionally for the cold. So I went in and did a complete assessment of the children.
When I finished, Michael asked me, well, what else do you do? I said, well, what's going on with you? He said, I'm a little tired. I'm getting ready for a concert, and would like to pick up my energy. I said, well, let's do some lab work. I did a full routine lab panel.
MORET: Was he healthy?
LEE: He was very healthy.
MORET: So there was nothing -- When you saw him, this is January --
LEE: This is the first of February now.
MORET: There was nothing looking at him that would make you think this guy's in trouble?
LEE: No, no organ problems whatsoever.
MORET: Dr. Drew?
DR. DREW PINSKY, VH-1'S "CELEBRITY REHAB": That doesn't surprise me.
MORET: That doesn't surprise you?
PINSKY: No, not at all. If I had seen Howard Samuels at age 20, I wouldn't have been able to tell what was going on. It's very difficult to detect those kinds of things, particularly if you're using pharmaceutical substances. They're safe. That's why we prescribe them. They don't have end organ problems associated with them.
MORET: Michael Jackson specifically asked for a drug by name.
PINSKY: He asked Cherilyn about that too, which is extraordinary. She must have been shocked, if she even heard the name of the drug.
LEE: I didn't know what it was. So I called a very dear friend of mine who is based in Los Angeles, who's a friend. He happens to be a physician. This was a Sunday. I called him, since I knew he was working that day. I said, look, what is this? He explained to me what it was. I said, my goodness. He didn't know where I was. He didn't know I was with Mr. Jackson.
MORET: Given that reaction, what do you think of the report that Dr. Murray may have, in fact, been the one to give this to him?
LEE: Well, you know, if I said anything, it will be kind of speculating, because I don't know if he did.
MORET: What would you think about a doctor who gave this medication out of a hospital setting?
LEE: What I said earlier, don't do it, because it's very unsafe and no one would do that, and should not do that for money.
PINSKY: I've heard Cherilyn's descriptions of what Michael was going through at the time when he was demanding these medications. In my world, my patients complain of that all the time, exactly what she described, drug withdrawal. Diprivan would have taken that away in an instant.
MORET: Howard, imagine you're a doctor and your patient comes to you and says, I want Diprivan; I need Diprivan. Give it to me. We are hearing today, it may have in fact happened just that way.
HOWARD C. SAMUELS, WONDERLAND TREATMENT CENTER: That's the real tragedy here. Cherilyn, first of all, I have to applaud you for saying no, for taking a stand with somebody. If the other doctors in this man's life, Michael Jackson, had done that, he might be alive today.
MORET: Great point.
SAMUELS: That, to me, is the issue, is that these doctors are seduced by the rich and famous. OK? By the prestige of it, by the money of it. I've worked with clients who pay doctors 50,000 dollars a month.
MORET: On retainer?
SAMUELS: On retainer. They'll show up at the house at 3:00 in the morning. What is sad here, and what we have to do is we have to educate America. There is a crisis going on here, not only with prescription drugs, which we get at Wonderland all the time, abuse, addiction from doctors. You see the same thing, Drew. It's the same as getting heroin on the street. There is no difference. And if we don't start educating the families to be able to intervene, and to get in there when they see the signs, and do everything they can to save their loved one's life, that, to me, is what we have to try to do with this.
MORET: We have to take a quick break. Michael Jackson's controversial song about drugs is very shocking and you will hear it in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MORET: We're going to hear Michael Jackson's song in just a moment. Cherilyn, you were served with a subpoena by the county coroner. I want to make it very clear; you're fully cooperating. You're not a suspect. You're not a person of interest. You were subpoenaed, as I understand it, because you can't simply hand over medical records. Is that correct?
LEE: Correct. I was subpoenaed by e-mail, yes.
MORET: What records was the coroner interested in?
LEE: I would like to say, too, I was not only subpoenaed by e- mail, I was asked that I could also fax over the record.
MORET: Did you ask the coroner to come over in person?
LEE: Yes, and --
PINSKY: Not allowed to.
LEE: I have a copy of the subpoena stating, here's the phone number, just fax them over. I said -- you know, I called back and said, I really don't want to fax over the records. I prefer to hand- give them to you. They're very in-depth, and I don't want to fax you. The female that I spoke to, she said, I will pick them up from you. I said, I can bring them to you. She said, no, I will pick them up for you. Another gentleman showed up.
MORET: What kind of records were they looking for?
LEE: They just wanted a hard copy of what I had already stated about the Diprivan.
MORET: Drew, we were talking in the break, if Cherilyn had not come forward, when do an Autopsy, you're not going to look for Diprivan.
PINSKY: That's not on the routing toxicology screen. That's for sure. It's very rapid acting, so it could be out of the body. I wonder how they're going to even screen for it, such as it is, with them looking for it.
MORET: Howard, when you hear a doctor being linked to this substance that you can't get outside of a hospital setting -- you've got a lot of experience. You know -- you talk about doctors being on retainer. Have you ever heard of anything to this level?
SAMUELS: Absolutely not. It just goes to show the access that Michael Jackson had, OK? To be able to so seduce a doctor to be able to get this drug that isn't even on the street, nor, in my own experience in treating thousands of addicts, do people come into treatment with an addiction to it.
MORET: We'll have a quick break. We'll be back with more after this. Stay tuned. More LARRY KING LIVE coming up.
MORET: Cherilyn Lee, as Michael Jackson's nutritionist, when he comes to you and says I need Diprivan, you showed him the PDR, it's called. It shows you -- it's a dictionary, I guess. It explains --
LEE: It's like the Bible of medicine.
PINSKY: Physicians Desk Reference.
MORET: And you show him the listing for this drug and said this is what it can do?
LEE: Yes, I left his house, drove back to my office and came back with the book, because I said he is not getting it from me.
MORET: You were stunned when you saw it?
LEE: I was definitely stunned.
MORET: What was his reaction?
LEE: His reaction was you don't understand. I'm going to be monitored, so I will be safe. I see what the book is saying, but I'll be monitored. You know, someone will monitor me and I'll be safe.
MORET: Drew, I hear from Cherilyn something that's frightening. It's a patient saying, you know what, I'm OK because a doctor will be there.
PINSKY: Not OK. But when a patient asks for medication by name, dose and route of administration, there is a problem. It's not the first time. Think about it, Jim. What if someone had said, give me this medicine. You'll need cardiac monitoring throughout the night, but you'll be OK. You're going to say, I'll have none of that please.
It's happened before. Whatever patients are in a position to do that, it's an adulteration of the physician/patient relationship.
MORET: Howard, if you are hooked or you believe you are hooked on something, you look past that.
SAMUELS: As a recovering addict, I manipulated doctors. I manipulated everyone to get the drug that I wanted. That's common.
MORET: I asked one doctor, was Michael Jackson doctor shopping. And this doctor said no, doctors were shopping him.
SAMUELS: You know what, I believe that. I believe that happens with many, many celebrities in this town.
MORET: It doesn't surprise you?
SAMUELS: Absolutely not.
MORET: Do you think things will change, Drew?
PINSKY: I think this will change things. I must tell you, I've noticed some of my patients that have been receiving medications from physicians, the kinds we referred to a couple times in this program, have suddenly begin migrating, leaving Los Angeles. I thought, probably a sign the big doctors are pulling back, but they found elsewhere to go for this.
MORET: What possible reasons, Drew, could a doctor have? If Dr. Murray used Diprivan, what could he say to the authorities?
PINSKY: As a justification?
PINSKY: The only thing I can imagine him saying -- and I don't think it's a justification -- is that this a protocol established by somebody else. But the fact is, insomnia -- there is not a medical textbook on Earth that will put Diprivan on the protocol for the treatment of insomnia. To say it is outside of common practice or off label would be an understatement. I'm sure there were other people involved in making the recommendation. He will just say, I was there to do the monitoring.
The fact is, insomnia, there is not a textbook that will put Diprivan for the treatment of insomnia. To say it is outside of common practice or off label would be an understatement. He will say I was there to do the monitoring.
MORET: Cherilyn Lee, Dr. Drew Pinsky, Howard Samuels, thank you all for your expertise.
We had planned to play Michael Jackson's song "Morphine." We apologize. We had a problem with the clip. Again, we are sorry for that. The 911 tape that raises as many questions as it answers in the Professor Gates controversy. Hear it for yourself right after this.
MORET: Welcome back. I'm Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," sitting in for Larry King. We're joined by Wendy Murphy, attorney for Lucia Whalen. She is the woman whose 911 call led to the arrest of Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates. Wendy is well known as a victims' rights advocate. Earlier today, Cambridge Police released the July 16th 911 call about a possible break in at the home of Professor Gates. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUCIA WHALEN, NEIGHBOR OF HENRY LOUIS GATES: I don't know if they lived there, and they just had a hard time with their key. But I did notice that they kind of used their shoulder to try to barge in, and they got in. I don't know if they had a key or not, because I couldn't see from my angle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Hispanic? Are they still in the house? WHALEN: They are still in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were they white, black or Hispanic?
WHALEN: There were two larger men. One looked kind of Hispanic, but I'm not really sure. And the other one entered and I didn't see what he looked like at all. I just saw from a distance. This older woman was worried, thinking someone is breaking in someone's house. They had been barging in. She interrupted me. That's when I had noticed. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have noticed it at all, to be honest. So I was just calling because she was a concerned neighbor, I guess.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Are you standing outside?
WHALEN: I am standing outside, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Police are on the way. You can meet them when they get there. What is your name?
WHALEN: My name is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On their way.
WHALEN: OK. I guess I'll wait. Thanks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: Wendy Murphy, I guess the first thing that jumps out is why does Lucia Whalen, who placed this 911 call, need an attorney?
WENDY MURPHY, VICTIM'S RIGHT ADVOCATE: She doesn't need an attorney, Jim. She called me because she wanted to know if she had any rights. People were calling her racist. One columnist said she should wear the ignominious badge of the KKK. She was feeling threatened. People were saying, we know where you live. She felt afraid, but she also said, isn't this libel? Isn't this slander? Maybe I should call a lawyer.
So she really didn't need a lawyer, per se. She wanted to know her rights.
MORET: Is she afraid for her safety?
MURPHY: She was. I think she is not afraid tonight. Let me tell you, if anything, I think she feels very proud of herself. Now that we've heard the tape, I think we should all feel proud of her. She was exemplary. The way she responded, how she was restrained. You couldn't ask for a more clear headed 911 caller. She even said at one point, I don't know if they live there; they've got suitcases.
She was excellent, if you ask me. So I think she is not afraid tonight. She is rather proud of herself, as well she should be.
MORET: She didn't even know if the person had a key. She said she couldn't even tell. She was very level headed, very calm. She couldn't see both people. And this is a key point, nowhere in this call does your client mention race, until she is pressed by the dispatcher. And even then, she is not clear about both of the individuals.
MURPHY: That's right. We issued that statement yesterday, Jim. Thankfully, the tape was released and confirmed everything we said. She never, ever said I see two black men. She never used the word black at all. She never mentioned race until asked by the 911 operator, are they white, black or Hispanic. Then she said, well, I think one is Hispanic. I didn't even see the other one.
What is important here is that she has been vilified, characterized as the racist spark that ignited the fire of hatred and so forth. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you compare her behavior to Sergeant Crowley's and Professor Gates, I think she wins the prize for the most level headed of all.
Yet, she was really the silent victim behind the scenes, the one people said, oh, she's the problem. Had they been white, she never would have called 911. Now we know that is absolutely not true. I'm glad for her that the truth is finally out.
MORET: How did Lucia happen to be there?
MURPHY: She works not too far, about 100 yards from where Professor Gates lives. She has worked there for 15 years. She is not a resident. She is not a neighbor.
MORET: She didn't recognize the professor?
MURPHY: She didn't see him. Remember, she described the other man, and his back was to her. No, she doesn't know him. She knows him perhaps the way you do, as a famous person, but didn't know he lived there, didn't know him as a person that lived on that street even.
MORET: Cambridge Police have released tapes of the police radio transmissions relating to the law enforcement responses to the case. Let's listen briefly to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you have the caller come to the front door?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's at her house. She doesn't live there. She's a witness in this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentleman says he resides here, but is uncooperative, but keep the cars coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: So Wendy, your client makes the 911 call. Set the record straight, the sergeant, Sergeant James Crowley, says he spoke to Miss Whalen on the scene. Does she dispute that? MURPHY: Well, she does, sort of. Let me correct the record. I'll even explain to you what the police response has been. When Sergeant Crowley arrived, my client was there and she lifted her finger and indicated I'm the one who called 911. He Sergeant Crowley said, OK, stay right there, and he went into the house. That was the full extent of their conversation.
She never spoke to him, in terms of describing anybody or talking about backpacks. All she said was, OK, I'll wait right here. That was it.
So let me be very clear, she never ever said she saw two black men or any black man and she never said she backpacks. The Cambridge Police do have an explanation, Jim, but I'm not here --
MORET: I know. We are out of time. I really appreciate your coming on, Wendy Murphy. Larry is back tomorrow with Colin Powell as his exclusive guest. Time now for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."