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CNN Larry King Live

Police Execute Search Warrant at Michael Jackson's Doctor's House; Gates Arrest: Who Was Right? Wrong?

Aired July 29, 2009 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the arrest seen around the world -- the professor and police.

Is the controversy uniting or dividing Americans?

The witness whose 911 call started it all breaks her silence.


LUCIA WHALEN, 911 CALLER: I would hope that people would learn not to judge others and to really base it on fact.


KING: Plus, Michael Jackson and the valley of death -- the man he asked about going there is here. Deepak Chopra reveals a haunting conversation with the king of pop.

And then, Michael's personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, had huge debts.

Did he do anything Jackson wanted in return for a big monthly paycheck?

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

We have an outstanding panel with us tonight to discuss the occurrences at the Harvard.

Here in Los Angeles, the famed media commentator Larry Elder.

In Chicago, Michael Eric Dyson, the university professor of sociology at Georgetown, "New York Times" best-selling author. His books include "April 4th, 1968: Martin Luther King, Jr.'s Death and How It Changed America."

Here in L.A. Is Ben Stein, the economist, former presidential speechwriter and a "New York Times" best-selling author, as well.

And also in L.A., Judge Joe Brown, who presides over the TV court reality show that bears his name. He served as a judge in the Shelby County criminal court in Memphis, Tennessee and, as well, as a reserve police officer in Memphis. Before we start with the panel, General Colin Powell, former secretary of State, made his first public comments on this last night on this show.

Take a look.


KING: Are you saying Gates was wrong?

COLIN POWELL, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm saying that Skip, perhaps, in this instance, might have waited a while, come outside, talked to the officer and that might have been the end of it. I think he should have reflected on whether or not this was the time to make that big a deal.

But he's just home from China, just home from New York. All he wanted to do was get to bed. His door was jammed. And so he was in -- in a mood where he said something.

KING: What about those who say he brings the history into that body of a black movement...

POWELL: That may well be the...

KING: ...and the black being stopped (ph)...

POWELL: That may well be the case. But I still think that it might well have been resolved in a different manner if we didn't have this verbal alteration between the two of them.

So my first teaching point for young people, especially, not Dr. Gates, but for young people, especially, is when the police are looking into something and if you're involved in it in one way or another, cooperate. Don't make the situation more difficult.

And I think, in this case, the situation was made more difficult.

On the part...

KING: And you can ask...

POWELL: On the part of the Cambridge Police Department, once they felt they had to bring Dr. Gates out of the house and to handcuff him, I would have thought, at that point, some adult supervision would have stepped in and said, OK, look, it is his house. Come on. Let's -- let's not take this any further. Take the handcuffs off. Good night, Dr. Gates.


KING: OK. Larry Elder, isn't that a sound way to look at it?

The judge got angry -- the professor got angry and had some reason to get angry. It was his house. He shouldn't have gotten that verbal. He goes outside and then the police shouldn't have arrested him.

LARRY ELDER, MEDIA COMMENTATOR: Well, it's a diplomatic way of looking at it. And that is the kind of thing that one might expect from a diplomat. And I certainly agree that Gates should not have been arrested. I would no have arrested him and the officers that I've spoken with all say that we're trained to take this kinds of abuse in the academy and you should walk away.

I disagree with the pass that Colin Powell gave on Skip Gates. This officer was doing his job. By Gates' own admission, he couldn't get into his house because it had been a target of a break-in. The officer had no idea whether or not Skip Gates was, in fact, the owner of the home, asked him to come out. And Gates immediately plays the race card and starts talking you're doing this to me because I'm a black man in America, you don't know who I am...

KING: But isn't it an...

ELDER: haven't heard the...

KING: ...understandable that...

ELDER: haven't heard the last of this.

KING: Have you ever been racially profiled?

ELDER: Define racially profiled.

Do I believe I've been stopped...

KING: Were you ever singled out because you are black?

ELDER: Well, racially profiled means you are being singled out...

KING: You know what it means.

ELDER: ...solely because you're black.

KING: Right.

Do you ever think -- did it ever happen to you?

ELDER: I've been stopped before.

KING: Yes. OK.

ELDER: But...

KING: All right. You're unusual then.


ELDER: Wait a second, Larry. Let me ask a question. I've been stopped before and when I've been stopped, officers have given me a reason for why I have been stopped. Do I believe I've been unfairly stopped before?

Perhaps. But one doesn't know. There are lots of factors...

KING: (INAUDIBLE) but that's...

ELDER: ...why people are being stopped.

KING: You're taking Powell out of context. He did say that you should calm it down and never argue with a cop.

ELDER: He said perhaps Gates overreacted or something to that effect.


ELDER: He had no perhaps about it. He went off on this officer unfairly.

KING: All right, but wait. You weren't there and I wasn't there.

Judge, what's your read?

JUDGE JOE BROWN, STAR, "JUDGE JOE BROWN": Let's take a slightly different tack on this. I agree with the general. I heard him last night. If you want to avoid undue drama, then, yes.

But there's something else here. The general was sworn to and did a great job of upholding the Constitution. Let's apply that.

First off, when the officer showed up, knocked on the door -- police. Come out.


What's he going to do?

The Constitution doesn't give him any authority to do a thing because no officer witnessed the event. He doesn't have reasonable suspicion that there was a felony convicted.

If he had gotten in there, let me see your I.D. The Fifth Amendment says you have an absolute right to remain silent. You have no obligation and cannot be compelled to offer evidence against yourself.

Let me see your I.D.


At that point, they are trespassing in the man's house unless they can show cause.

KING: Do you think he's -- he was completely correct, Gates? BROWN: I would say that it was something that was going to cause him undue drama. But I think as a citizen of a free, democratic society, sometimes we have to do things the hard way and keep the law enforcement -- the government and everybody acting appropriately.

KING: Ben?

BEN STEIN, ECONOMIST, "NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMNIST: Well, first of all, it's a story about jet lag, as the general said. Jet lag is a nasty, horrible thing. When you come back from a 30 hour trip, you're in a bad mood. Your judgment is thrown off. It's probably not a time to be making wild decisions or bad decisions. It's probably a time to take little baby steps and not to start screaming at the police.

But, you know, black people are tired of being pushed around. They've been pushed around in this country for a very long time. But police are tired of being pushed around, too. And the police don't like to be pushed around. When a policeman goes out everyday, he's taking his life in his hands. He...

KING: So the general was right?

STEIN: I think the general is completely right. He's incredibly right. Both of them should have been a lot more sensitive to the other. Absolutely.

KING: What's your read, Michael Dyson?

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, I think, look, the police are tired of being pushed around. It's amazing to me. I think that if we look at the history of interactions between African-American people and the police departments of this land, there's been a disproportionate concentration of power in the hands of the police. They've got the gun, they've got the badge, they have the ability to intimidate.

They make up stories. They create fictions. They generate narratives. They just throw down guns.

That's the history -- not most of them, but enough to make the life of the average African-American person who's stopped by them miserable.

I've had several -- unlike Larry Elder, I've had several instances where I definitely feel I've been profiled, singled out and then mistreated.

Once I was stopped with my brother, claiming that we stole the very car that my father owned. When I reached for my wallet to prove that I had the registration, the cop pulled out a gun and put it my head and said "N" -- the "N" word -- "I will shoot you right here."

Then when they ran the registration and discovered it was our car, no apology offered, got back in their car and left.

So my point is... KING: All right...

DYSON: ...that there is a history of this inequality here. And I think Skip Gates...

KING: All right...

DYSON: ...we're assuming -- first of all, we weren't there. We don't know what he said.

KING: Colin...

DYSON: But he has a right to say it.

KING: Colin Powell...

DYSON: He's in his own home...

KING: All right, Michael...

DYSON: And he's...

KING: ...Colin Powell was saying...

DYSON: I think he was absolutely right.

KING: Colin Powell was saying all right, we understand the history. We understand the anger.


KING: It's completely OK to be angry. But put it down a little.


KING: I mean this is a cop who teaches racial profiling and how to deal with it with the police force. Put it down a little.

Don't you feel at all, Larry, as a black man, any sympathy for Professor Gates?

ELDER: I feel a great deal of sympathy for a police officer who, as Ben Stein just now said, goes out every day and is willing to take a bullet from somebody who...

KING: No sympathy for Gates?

ELDER: ...from somebody you don't even know.

KING: No sympathy?

ELDER: Gates ought to be sympathetic to the fact that a neighbor was concerned enough to call somebody because she thought somebody was breaking into his house...

KING: So then no sympathy for Gates? ELDER: ...and empathy enough...


ELDER: know that this officer was trying to make sure that that, in fact, was the proper owner of the home.

KING: Do you think the arrest was racially motivated?

That's tonight's Quick Vote question. Go to and let us know.

And hear from the woman who made the 911 call.

That's ahead.


KING: We're back with the panel.

The woman who made the 911 call that led to Professor Gates' arrest spoke out publicly for the first time earlier today.

Here's some of what she said.


LUCIA WHALEN, 911 CALLER: I hope now that the truth of the tape will help heal the Cambridge community.

I just saw it from a distance. And this older woman was worried, thinking someone's breaking in someone's house, they've been barging in, they kind of used their shoulder to try to barge in and they got in. I don't know if they had a key or not because I couldn't see from my angle.

When I was called racist and I was a target of scorn and ridicule because of the things I never said.


WHALEN: OK. All right. I guess I'll wait. Thanks.


WHALEN: The criticism hurt me as a person, but it also hurt the community of Cambridge.


KING: Judge Brown, no one can blame...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you just heard it.

KING: She did the right thing.

BROWN: She did the right thing. No problem with her.

But did you see, I don't know whether he had -- she had a key or not.

So at what point do you say there's a burglary in process?

At that point when you approach the citizen in his home, our sacrosanct first 10 Amendments, the Bill of Rights, guarantees you security in your house.

KING: You're saying the cop was wrong?

BROWN: Dead wrong, because what would have happened is how is he going to prove it if Gates had just shut up and he had arrested him?

So you've got the man handcuffed for what?

Now, I actually had a case like that as a lawyer -- almost identical circumstances. And everybody was going through all the stuff and it went up to the Court of Criminal Appeals. And then they said this is ridiculous. This man had an absolute right as a citizen in this country...


BROWN: do what he did.


KING: Why, Ben, didn't he just say it's my house?

STEIN: He should have just said, it's my house. (INAUDIBLE)

KING: Here's my I.D.

STEIN: We're done.

KING: It's my house.


KING: And then he can ask you, please leave.

STEIN: Kindly leave. He started cursing at the guy. The police have a sort of written -- unwritten rule. If he -- if the guy curses at me inside his own house, we let him get away with it. If he's foolish enough to go outside and start cursing on the outside, we arrest him for interfering with an arrest or interfering with the police procedure.

But in both cases it's fatigue, it's overwork, it's lack of respect. People have just got to respect each other more. There's just got to be more respect.

ELDER: Larry, here is my -- my problem with it. When Obama had the press conference, he admitted that he didn't have all of the facts and admitted that was a friend of Skip Gates and therefore he was biased. But then he proceeds to suggest that Gates was right, that Gates was a victim of racial profiling. This is a metaphor for what's all...

KING: He took that back...

ELDER: ...what's going on...

KING: And he's now invited them to the White House tomorrow.

ELDER: ...what's going on. That's right, he did take -- he did dial it back.


ELDER: But a disproportionate amount of crime is committed in the black community and the victims are usually black people. There's a great deal of hostility between cops and citizens. And neither should stereotype the other. And that's what Obama should have said.

And I think a lot of people, Larry...

KING: You're -- wait. You're knocking Obama now.

ELDER: I am.


ELDER: And I think a lot of people, Larry...


ELDER: Larry...

KING: Where did that come from?


KING: He apologized. They're both going to see him tomorrow.


ELDER: Well, wait a second. Why...


ELDER: Why should...


ELDER: Why should both be invited?


ELDER: If I -- if I were -- if I were Crowley, I would say, Mr. President, thank you for the invitation, but you can take your beer and shove it, because...

KING: But he's going.


ELDER: ...because you need to apologize to me and you need to apologize to the Cambridge Police Department...

KING: I think...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I jump in, Larry?


ELDER: ...for suggesting that I...


ELDER: ...I engaged in racial profiling...

KING: Michael...

ELDER: ...when I didn't do it.

DYSON: Can I jump in here?

KING: Michael, go ahead. Yes. Go ahead, Michael.

DYSON: Yes, well, here's the -- here's the thing. Obama is a principled gentleman. He wants to reconcile. He said, look, I ratcheted the conversation up. He didn't apologize, but he did say, because he still felt that the police shouldn't have certainly arrested Skip Gates, because a guy who is 5'7" with a cane is no visible threat.

I agree with Judge Brown. The moment you get in the man's house and he's inside and he's telling you, I live here -- Ben Stein said he was cursing him out. There's no evidence to suggest that.

So all I'm saying to you is that Skip Gates is saying this is my house, according to both of them. Once he shows the I.D. and proves that he's in his own house, then the police are overreacting and abusing their power.

What happened to the notion that the police -- we love them for what they do, but they are an extension of our citizenship rights. They are to protect and to serve.

Why do we have to walk around being intimidated by public servants?

I think this is the disproportionate concentration of power, in their hands -- not just in terms of race. I'm sure many white citizens feel the same way.

It's exacerbated by issues of race, but certainly, the relationship between police and American citizens has to be relieved. And I think Obama is right...


DYSON: have this conversation. Let's deal with the larger issues.

STEIN: Wait. What is -- what -- what...

ELDER: Disproportionate concentration of -- of power in their hands?

I have no idea what that means. They -- they have a very, very...

DYSON: Well, let me tell you what it means. It means that historically...

ELDER: ...dangerous job.

DYSON: No. It means that historically, black people have died disproportionately at the hands of police people. I'm saying to you...


DYSON: Look at the cases that have been with...

ELDER: Michael...

DYSON: Oscar Grant.

ELDER: Michael, news flash...

DYSON: Oscar Grant in Oakland, California, who was on the ground...

ELDER: News flash...

DYSON: ...who was begging not to be shot...

KING: One at a time.


DYSON: ...and got shot. That's an example. Oscar Grant in Oakland, California was on the ground begging the police not to hurt or harm him. And without provocation, he was shot. There are many -- we think about brother Sean in New York...

KING: Now you get...

DYSON: So I'm saying to you, there are many cases...

KING: OK. All right, Michael, you made the point.

DYSON: ...that this has occurred. KING: You have -- you will admit that in the history of the United States...

ELDER: Yes. We know about...

KING: ...there has been a lot of problems.

ELDER: We know about the history. Of course there's...

KING: Well, you don't dismiss that, do you?

ELDER: Of course we know about the history. Of course you can't dismiss it.

KING: What else do you have?

ELDER: But this is 2009 and Professor Gates lives in a city that's got a black...

DYSON: That happened in 2008.

ELDER: ...that's got a black mayor, a governor that's got a black governor -- a state that's got a black governor and lives in a country that's got a black president. This is not your grandfather's police department.

KING: All right, let me -- I'll pick up with Ben in a minute.

Back in 60 seconds.



OBAMA: I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that, but I think it's fair to say...

JON STEWART, HOST: That it's a complicated issue and I don't really have any comments at this time because I wasn't there and I don't know all the facts.

OBAMA: The Cambridge police "acted stupidly".

STEWART: I couldn't save him. I couldn't save him.


KING: There are the late night comedians having fun about all of this, but it remains a serious discussion. Both Professor Gates and Sergeant Crowley have offered their version of what happened last week in Cambridge. Each of them has defended what he said and did.

Here are some of their comments.


PROF. HENRY LOUIS GATES, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: We got to my house in Harvard Square and the door was jammed. I asked my driver just sort of to push the door through. A Cambridge policeman showed up on my porch.



SGT. JAMES CROWLEY, CAMBRIDGE, MASS POLICE: Though I didn't know at the time who Professor Gates was.



GATES: I said this is my house. I'm a Harvard professor. I live here. He said, can you prove it?



CROWLEY: I was continuously telling him to calm down during this whole exchange, because I really didn't want this, either.



GATES: And I said, why are you not responding to me? Are you not responding to me because you're a white police officer and I'm a black man?



CROWLEY: I really didn't want to have to take such a drastic action because I knew that it was going to bring a certain amount of attention. But Professor Gates pushed it and provoked and just wouldn't stop.



GATES: This officer said, thank you for accommodating my earlier request, you are under arrest. They took me to the Cambridge police station and booked me -- fingerprints, mug shot.



CROWLEY: I know what I did was right. I have nothing to apologize for.


KING: If this is a teachable moment, as President Obama suggests, what are we supposed to learn from it?

That's next.


KING: OK. Ben, what do we learn from this?

STEIN: I think we learn that policeman are tired on being picked on by intellectuals and activists and that black people are really, really tired of being pushed around by policeman. They both have dangerous lives, especially the policemen do.

The Harvard professor does not leave his home that morning thinking he's got a good chance of being killed. The policeman does. Let's cut him some slack.

KING: Well, how do you think it -- what have we learned, Michael?

DYSON: Well, I think that, look, the history of racial profiling is real. Let's deal with that. Cops do have an extremely important and tough job. We have to be empathetic to them.

Thirdly, I think we understand that we've got to come together as black, white, Latino and other people and figure out a way that the police become an extension of our right to survive, not the forces to intimidate us.

And, finally, it took all of the pedigree of a Harvard professor and a president to go up against the authority of a police department. That tells you something about the concentrated of -- concentration of power.

Let's figure out a way to make them friendly presences in our neighborhoods and not intimidating ones.

KING: Larry, what have we learned?

ELDER: We learned that Barack Obama, during his press conference, sided with -- with Gates, when Gates implied that there was racial motivation in -- in Crowley going to his home. It did a disservice, because many people, I believe, voted for Barack Obama, in part, because he thought -- they thought that he would bring the races together and it would...

KING: What's he doing tomorrow night?

ELDER: ...and he would make a statement about how far we've come.

What he's doing tomorrow night is making a moral equivalency between what Gates did and what Crowley did. And there is no moral equivalency. Crowley was doing his job and Gates just went off on him...

KING: So Crowley...

ELDER: ...talked about his mama and all that stuff.

KING: You don't agree that...

ELDER: And so...

KING: You don't agree with people who say Crowley should not have arrested him once he knew it wasn't his house?

ELDER: I -- I said that when I first started.

KING: All right.

ELDER: They're...

KING: So that's a mistake.

ELDER: They're trained. They're trained to...

KING: You said he didn't do anything wrong.

ELDER: Well, but it's still within his own discretion. I would not have done that and most cops I've talked to -- in fact, all the cops I've talked to said that they would have walked away.

But was it unlawful for him to have arrested this guy?

Was it within his discretion?

Probably so. But I would have walked away.

KING: Judge, would...

ELDER: But they are not moral equivalents.

BROWN: See, there is one thing you're getting here away from. Had Gates been another type of individual, he would have had a right to have resisted this unlawful intrusion.

KING: Yes, you said that.

BROWN: And that would have been very interesting had he chosen to do it. Now, discretion, politeness, diplomacy -- they all have their ways. But I don't think this is so much a racial issue as it is reflective of something in law enforcement, the society, the world at large, to do things the easy way and cut corners.

What I'm offended with is this whole process -- being a learning experience has been somewhat engendered by our impetuosity. We have to know, inquiring minds, and can't wait to find out what happened.

KING: When Colin Powell says suck it up, both sides...


KING: ...suck it up.

STEIN: It's a class issue, too. I don't think the Cambridge police like the fancy pants Harvard professors, whether they're black, white, green, blue or yellow. The police don't like Harvard professors.

So I think when Professor Gates said, I'm a Harvard professor, that didn't make the policeman like him...

KING: It didn't help him?

STEIN: It didn't make him like him at all.

KING: Why should a cop have a (INAUDIBLE)...

DYSON: Well, you know what, had he been Henry Kissinger...


DYSON: But had he been Henry Kissinger and the president had been George Bush and a black cop had arrested Henry Kissinger, that -- that black cop very well may have been doing traffic duty that day. I think there would have been a much different kind of response.


STEIN: I know, with all due respect...

DYSON: The class issue is not...


ELDER: Michael doesn't know that. It's a -- it's a statement that you're projecting and you don't really know.

I live in L.A. We've had back to back black police officers. Fifty percent of the street cops are female or minority. It is not the same world.

But you, Michael Eric Dyson, act as if nothing has changed and if I don't show 100 percent...

DYSON: That's not what I said.

ELDER: ...100 percent sympathy for...

DYSON: That snot what I said.

ELDER: ...for Professor Gates, I, Larry Elder, have never experienced any bad experience...

DYSON: That's not what I said. ELDER: ...with respect to a police officer.

DYSON: You're making -- that's a straw argument.

ELDER: And that is not...

DYSON: That's a straw argument.

ELDER: And that is not true.

DYSON: That's a straw argument.

ELDER: And that is not true.

DYSON: That's a straw argument. You -- you said because Barack Obama is a black man, because the governor of the state is black and the mayor of the city is black, of course that's significant change. But that doesn't change the on the street level, where interactions between black and white people are most lethal and potentially most explosive.

ELDER: Nothing's changed.

DYSON: That's where we've got to concentrate our...

ELDER: Nothing's changed.

DYSON: I didn't say that. That's -- that's your argument.

ELDER: I'm asking.

DYSON: Significant amounts have changed...

ELDER: I'm asking. Nothing's changed?

DYSON: I'm telling you, significant levels -- significant things have changed, but things remain the same enough for us to go in there and try to fix them. That's what I'm suggesting.

KING: OK. And we shall do a lot more on this, because it isn't going away. And the two parties meet tomorrow.

And we thank Larry Elder, Michael Eric Dyson, Ben Stein and Judge Joe Brown.

Next time, try -- I want all of you to try to come forth with opinions and not be so laid back.

ELDER: Yes, a little more passionate.

KING: Gee.


ELDER: Not be so laid back.

KING: This whole half hour was just...

ELDER: Not be so laid back.

KING: ...a yawn.

Katherine Jackson's attorney made a move today that could affect the handling of her son's estate.

Find out what she wants, next.


KING: We're joined now by Jim Moret, chief correspondent of "INSIDE EDITION," also an attorney; and Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent -- Ted, we understand Jackson, Sr. had a statement today?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION" CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Yes, very bizarre. On News 1 they did an interview with Joe Jackson. Let's take a listen to it. He basically talks about Omer Bhatti, the young man that people have speculated that could be Michael Jackson's son.

The interviewer asked Joe Jackson about it.

Let's watch and see.

KING: All right, let's watch what he said.


QUESTION: So many things. But the other day was that Michael may have had another child. That's -- Omar is his name. And then everyone said, ooh, he was sitting right there next to -- next to Reba and everyone was trying to connect some dots.

Do you know that as -- as Michael's other son?

JOE JACKSON, FATHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes, I knew he had another son. Yes, I did.

QUESTION: And he -- he looks like a Jackson?

JACKSON: Oh, yes. He looks like a Jackson. He acts like a Jackson. He can dance like a Jackson. He's a (INAUDIBLE). This boy is a fantastic dancer. As a matter of fact, he teaches dancing. Yes.

QUESTION: So maybe he's the future of -- of the family.

JACKSON: I don't know. I can't say that yet, until I see it happen.


KING: OK. Stranger and stranger.

Jim, what do you make of this? (LAUGHTER)

MORET: He didn't really come out and say Omer is his son, but he sort of...

KING: He did not. He said looks it like a duck and it acts like a duck.

MORET: Yes. And -- and based upon what Joe Jackson has been saying lately, this is kind of in character, right?


KING: But what do we do -- so what does it mean to the story -- Ted?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It doesn't mean nothing...

KING: Nothing?

ROWLANDS: It means nothing to Michael Jackson's death.

KING: Nothing.

ROWLANDS: But it definitely fuels the fire on that whole speculation of Michael's life. And that, of course, is a huge part of this story and that's why we're still talking about it.


ROWLANDS: Absolutely.

KING: What's the latest on the investigation?

ROWLANDS: Well, they served search warrants yesterday in Las Vegas, one at Dr. Conrad Murray's home, the other at the clinic. They're looking at what they found there, which is basically computer files. They took out hard drives and they took his cell phones. They're looking at all of that. Keep in mind, this could work to his advantage. They're looking for evidence. They don't care if Dr. Murray is innocent or guilty. But they're doing a thorough investigation. What they find could help him or hurt him.

KING: All this, Jim, is speculative. What do we know now? What do we know? What do we really know?

MORET: We know when the doctor called 911. We know that, by his own admission, he waited 20 to 30 minutes. The police investigators want to know, first of all, when did he find Michael Jackson in a state of cardiac arrest? Why did -- did he deliver Diprivan? Where did he get the Diprivan? How long did he administer this?

If the doctor delivered Diprivan to Michael Jackson, he's got some serious problems. He can't deliver it outside of a hospital setting. We know that. You can't get it without a prescription. We know that. KING: Those are all ifs.

MORET: They're not ifs. Well, yes, because we don't have the cause of death.

KING: Right, we won't know that until next week.

MORET: We do have the doctor's statement to police that he gave Michael Jackson Diprivan. We know that they're looking for evidence of a homicide. This doctor has serious problems. We know that.

ROWLANDS: He may have not -- Michael Jackson may have had the Diprivan. Other doctors could have got it for him. That's one thing they're going to look at, because they do have the Diprivan, according to a source.


KING: The doctor gave him Diprivan. Is that a crime?

ROWLANDS: Technically, it's not an illegal substance. Was it gross negligence? Probably. Will charges be filed? Absolutely. But he could have a good excuse, if he's trained in it. If he used it a million times in his clinic, he can say, listen, I was well trained in it. I was giving it to him for X, Y or Z reason.

KING: Only anesthesiologists use it, right?

MORET: Yes, and you need certain equipment to monitor breathing. You need to monitor the oxygen level in the blood. If none of that equipment was at Michael Jackson's house, then yes it was medically malpractice. It could be criminal. It's not just a little problem. It's a big problem.

KING: Curiouser, and curiouser. Thanks, Ted. We'll be back later. Jim will be back later.

Michael's personal chef, Kai Chase, is scheduled to be on this show tomorrow night. She's also written a blog exclusive about what happened in the house on the day Michael died. And you can read it only on

Michael Jackson inquired about something that could take him to the valley of death and back. Deepak Chopra will tell us about that chilling conversation right after the break.


KING: Joining us now in New York, Deepak Chopra, medical doctor, spiritual teacher, best-selling author and longtime friend of Michael Jackson. In Atlanta, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, and a practicing neurosurgeon.

Deepak, you had an eerie conversation with Michael. In hindsight, you now believe he was talking about Diprivan. What happened? DR. DEEPAK CHOPRA, MEDICAL DOCTOR, SPIRITUAL TEACHER: Very casually over the phone, he just dropped a line like: Deepak, have you heard of this thing that takes you immediately to the valley of death, and then brings you right back. I said, I've never heard of such -- something like that. Perhaps you know something that I don't know, because I was unfamiliar with this.

And now, of course, in hindsight, I realize he might have been talking about Diprivan, which acts within 40 seconds of being administered intravenously. Actually, if you don't keep the patient on the drip, it also brings you back right away. So it sounds very much like --

KING: I guess it is like a kind of death. You are not conscious of anything.

CHOPRA: Yes, and according to some people, it also produces a sense of euphoria, as it takes you into the state of deep hypnosis. The problem is, and you should ask Sanjay this, even the toxicology report could be inconclusive, because the drug has such a short half life. Disappears from the blood, gets into the tissues in the brain. And unless they took that, they were actually looking for it in the beginning, the toxicology report may not help at all.

KING: I mentioned before, I had cataract surgery recently, and I had Diprivan. And I don't remember getting it. And I just remember waking up and I thought they hadn't done it yet. They had done it already. I was gone and up. Sanjay -- let Sanjay respond. Do you think it might not show up in a toxicology report?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think Dr. Chopra is absolutely right. First of all, it's not a routine toxicology test. I have talked to lots of people over the past several weeks regarding this very issue. Unless they knew to check for it, because it disappears from the body so quickly, you may not be able to test for it directly.

What happens, Larry, is a few things. One is it does get stored in fat. You may be able to go back and look at the fat and test for it. Also, people who chronically use it, you can test the hair for it as well. Finally, Larry, sometimes it breaks down into various by- products, and sometimes you can test for those by-products, not specific for Diprivan. But it may give you a pretty good idea.

KING: Deepak, why would someone take it other than just to go to sleep? It's not long-acting. You'd wake up soon.

CHOPRA: It's never, ever been given to anyone to sleep. The only time it's been abused, by the way, is by an anesthesiologist. I believe there are three or four reported deaths. They are all amongst medical people, from the medical profession, who know how to administer it intravenously.

And furthermore, you have to give it as a drip. If you give it as a bullet, you come back right away as you did in your surgery. It should never be given unless you have recourse to a respirator and can intubate a person. This is most unusual.

You have to remember, though, Michael was rehearsing until midnight. Whatever killed him, he must have gotten that after midnight. Until midnight, he was up and about.

KING: Sanjay, you took your CNN viewers into an operating room to give them a first-hand look at the proper administration of this drug. Let's watch that.


GUPTA: We're here inside the operating room with Dr. Gershan (ph). He's the chief of anesthesiology here. Propofol is a medication he uses all the time. Is this it right over here?


GUPTA: Looks -- milk of amnesia, they call it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Milk of amnesia. Going to get a little sleepy. Give me some good deep breaths.

GUPTA: Why don't you just go and take a look at his eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deep breaths, doing great. You may feel a little burning, OK?


GUPTA: Nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a reason for his heart rate increasing. See his eyes are closed.

GUPTA: His eyes closed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stopped breathing. Watch (INAUDIBLE) my wonderful anesthetist is going to help him breathe.

GUPTA: Take a look. All the breathing right now is taking place with this bag and this mask. With that medication, he wouldn't be able to breathe on his own without those things.


KING: More with the doctors in 60 seconds.


KING: We're back with Deepak Chopra and Sanjay Gupta. Michael Jackson, by the way, wrote a song more than 10 years ago, called it "Morphine," a little disturbing. Listen.


KING: What do make of that, Deepak? CHOPRA: Michael was a tortured soul. If you understand the context of his life, you understand why he could have been a tortured soul. He was a loving, compassionate human being. But he also had a lot of self-loathing, a lot of shame, and also an obsession with self- mutilation, as evidenced by the surgery.

KING: Sanjay -- Sanjay, what does Demerol do?

GUPTA: Demerol is a narcotic. It's a pain medication. Some people get high by taking it, get a sense of euphoria. You can also develop a tolerance to it. I never heard that song before. Larry, it sounds like someone talking about addiction, talking about tolerance, talking about someone who wants to beat addiction. It's really, really wild to hear that.

KING: Sanjay, as a doctor, are we ever going to get the answer to this?

GUPTA: I think when we hear the final result, we're going to hear something that says, the most likely cause of death was X. Because most of the autopsy was done, toxicology has probably already been performed. It's probably going to be something that has to do with drugs, maybe a combination of drugs.

Going back to Dr. Chopra's point; if Diprivan or Propofol, which has had so much attention focused on it -- because it's just so unusual a drug, Larry. Any doctor I talked to said, hearing it abused in the home, so unusual. It may be hard to draw that exact cause and effect.

KING: Deepak, do you think we'll ever get all of the answers?

CHOPRA: I don't know. I have nothing to add to what Sanjay said. All I can say is he was so vital the night before. So he wasn't expecting to die. I can tell you that.

KING: I agree with that. That seems obvious from the way he was rehearsing. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we'll be calling on you, it appears, frequently.

By the way, tomorrow night, Al Sharpton and Ann Coulter go at each other over the Gates matter. It won't be dull.

Is someone about to be charged in the Jackson case? We'll talk about the likelihood of that next.



KING: Marcia Clark joins us, the former prosecutor, contributor to the "Daily Beast" and a legal correspondent for "Entertainment Tonight," Trent Copeland, the famed criminal defense attorney, and our own Jim Moret, chief correspondent for the "Inside Edition." He is also an attorney.

Marcia, does it look to you like a duck 00 looks like a duck, acts like a duck, criminal charges coming?

MARCIA CLARK, "THE DAILY BEAST": It sounds like this duck is about to get arrested for everything that we've seen, for probably, my guess would be, at this point, second degree murder. And the interesting thing about this case is that there's no in between. It's either going to be involuntary manslaughter, which was called a misdemeanor manslaughter, very low, or second degree murder, which is 15 to life. Big, big, long fall there, but that's the way it looks.

KING: Murder for what, Trent, for doing what?

TRENT COPELAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I'm not exactly sure, Larry. Look, we've had a feeding frenzy here for the last several weeks associated with Dr. Conrad Murray. A lot of people have been speculating. Look, if you give someone Diprivan, this is a lethal cocktail. This is something that will almost certainly result in death.

I'm not so sure that that's a fair assessment of what the facts in the case were. Look, most people have had Diprivan. If you've undergone a routine colonoscopy, you've had Diprivan.

Remember this, look, there isn't always a battery of medical personnel. Look, there may just be a single doctor. There may be an anesthesiologist. It could sometimes be just the doctor.

Look, when we talk about whether or not the cardiologist should have been with Michael Jackson, monitoring his heart, monitoring his respiration, monitoring his breathing. The reality is, Dr. Conrad Murray was that cardiologist. He also had oxygen tanks in the house, Larry. He also had some other breathing apparatus. We may not have seen the last of --

KING: Jim, could he have been a doctor doing doctor things?

MORET: I'm sitting in the middle, because I disagree with Trent to one extent. You can't use Diprivan in the house. I have not heard one doctor who has ever heard of it being used outside of a clinic or a hospital.

KING: When you say can't, is it a crime if you do?

COPELAND: Absolutely not.

MORET: It may not be a crime.

KING: Do you think criminal prosecution --

MORET: Yes, I do.

KING: You do?

MORET: I absolutely do. Based upon what we believe to be true.


MORET: I don't want to convict this guy before he's been charged.

KING: What if the toxicology report, Marcia, doesn't show Diprivan.

CLARK: Then you're in a whole different world. For example, here's how Dr. Murray doesn't get arrested. If what you have is a cocktail of drugs, Oxycontin, mixed with Demerol, mixed with Valium, whatever, and they come from a variety of different doctors, or even unknown doctors -- those pill bottles that don't have any labels on them, for example, and you don't know where they came from -- then you're not going to be able to charge anyone, because it's Michael Jackson taking a variety of things. Good luck finding somebody to be culpable for that.

KING: Where, Trent, in all this is the patient responsible? If he scores it from different doctors, if he's wily enough, he's got friends doing it, what did the doctor do wrong?

COPELAND: Look, I'm certain that the prosecutors will invariably say, look, the reality is a doctor; his principle is guided by the principle of, first, do no wrong. The truth is that the doctor has a fiduciary duty -- he's got a responsibility to that patient.

But I think, if I'm the defense lawyer and I'm representing Michael Jackson, the first thing I'm looking for are people who supplied Michael Jackson with this, the people who enabled Michael Jackson with this. I'm looking also for all the combinations of drug interactions and how those things may have worked, or adversely so, with Diprivan.

So I'm not so certain that -- unfortunately, Michael Jackson may be dragged into this. His good name may be dragged into this as well, in terms of what kind of responsibility he had for his own health.

KING: Is all of this speculation, which is what a lot of it is, going to affect the case, Jim, if there is a case?

MORET: Yes and no. I think the fact is we will know what killed Michael Jackson when the report comes out.

KING: We will?

MORET: Yes. And you may have is a case similar to Anna Nicole's case. You didn't have murder charges filed there. She didn't die in the state. But what you did have is conspiracy and drug charges, because you know -- I've been told by one doctor there are 19 doctors being investigated in some fashion or another, and 11 different aliases, at least.

It is a crime to prescribe drugs under an alias. So those doctors, if they're involved, could face charges.

KING: Marcia, are some autopsy final reports inconclusive?

CLARK: Yes, they can. It can happen. I don't think it's going to happen here. But it can happen that the coroner can say, look, I don't see a homicide; I just see an inconclusive. I see cardiac arrest caused by a variety of causes. For example what we talked about. If you have a cocktail of drugs and he can't say any one particular one was the cause of death, then you'll have an inconclusive.

KING: Trent, should all these doctors have lawyers ready?

COPELAND: I think all of these are already lawyered up, Larry. Whether we know of it publicly or not, I think every possible outcome has been speculated by these lawyers. I think every one of these doctors who has provided some care or treatment to Michael Jackson have all got lawyers.

KING: Back with more. Marcia Clark, Trent Copeland and Jim Moret. Don't go away.


KING: Jim, could a pharmacy be in trouble?

MORET: That's a good question. I think a pharmacy is the ultimate gatekeeper. You have one pharmacy that has 100,000 dollars in outstanding bills, which they have admitted, with Michael Jackson. The question, should the pharmacy have noticed that too much medication was going to one person? They're out could be it was under a number of different aliases. They didn't know it was all going to Michael Jackson. So I think they have a defensible position.

KING: Marcia, what about involuntary manslaughter? I didn't mean to harm him.

CLARK: That would be if he was committing a misdemeanor or if he was acting in a lawful manner, but without due caution or circumspection. That's a two, three or four-year state prison sentence. It's what we call misdemeanor manslaughter. It could happen, if that is what they charge him with.

If, for example, as Trent was saying, he had certainly measures that he could be taking, that he was prepared to take, to counteract the Diprivan, and he wasn't as willfully negligent as second degree would indicate, then involuntary manslaughter would be the way to go.

KING: As a lawyer, if you were representing Dr. Murray, and you believed he had a good story, would you ask him to do media?


KING: Because?

COPELAND: First of all, Larry, he has, in essence, done some media, because you can believe that those three hours of taped interviews that he gave immediately following Michael Jackson's death will, somehow or another, be released. At some point in time, we're going to hear exactly, if they were tape recording conversations -- my suspicion is they were. We're going to hear portions of that. We're also going to see some of the transcripts associated with that interview.

It can't do anything other than hurt him. He will have made certain admissions. He will have made certain statements that will almost always come back to bite him. So, no, I wouldn't advise him to do media.

KING: Jim, is he already a villain?

MORET: I think he's certainly being cast as a villain. We know that his offices and house were searched, and the warrant said they're looking for evidence of homicide, of manslaughter. We know that. The word manslaughter and Dr. Murray have been tied together.

KING: What kind of doctor is he, Marcia?

CLARK: From what we're hearing, not a very good one.

KING: An internist?

CLARK: A cardiologist. But he's been in trouble before. He's had an arrest before. This is not a doctor with a great history. The fact that they're serving search warrants on his homes indicates that they're looking for all kinds of personal conduct that may indicate he's a criminal.

COPELAND: I'm not certain he's any disciplinary reports in the medical board.

CLARK: I thought he was suspended.

COPELAND: I don't know.

KING: Why would his personal doctor be a cardiologist, not an internist. A cardiologist is a specialist. If a cardiologist is your personal doctor, you have a heart problem.

MORET: In this case, this man was a friend first, and then became his doctors. This doctor treated Michael Jackson's son a number of years ago. Michael Jackson specifically asked for this doctor. AEG didn't want this doctor. Michael did.

KING: What's the delay in the report?

CLARK: Well, there's been speculation about one reason for the delay is that it's actually done, ready to go, but that Chief Bratton is not in town, and it's not going to be released --

KING: He releases it?

CLARK: No, he does not release it, the coroner does. But that they're sitting on it until he gets back in town, back from his vacation next week.

The other possibility -- and I would do this if I was the prosecutor -- I would hold this report until I was ready to file charges or not file charges, so that it all comes out together, and avoid the speculation if possible.

KING: Do you agree, Trent?

COPELAND: I do. I think Marcia makes a good point. I would probably hold all the documents. And I would make sure that the department, the coroner's office, sheriff, police, DEA, everyone who was involved in this investigation, all spoke with one voice at one time.

KING: When does this go away?

MORET: There's too many questions to be answered before this can go away any time soon. We have to know what is going to happen with this doctor, what the cause of death is, what other doctors were involved. This is going to last for a while.

KING: Why are we fascinated with him, Marcia?

CLARK: How can we help it? It's the King of Pop.

KING: Can't bring him back.

CLARK: Can't bring him back, but it is the King of Pop. He's an icon. I also think, Larry, that there's a sociological issue here. Prescription drug abuse is the cocaine of this millennium. Remember, cocaine was all of that in the '80s. Now we have prescription drug abuse. Every adult that has health care coverage and can afford the insurance can get a prescription drug high if they want.

This is an issue that's so prevalent now. It's a big deal by itself.

KING: Pushed steroids off the front page.

COPELAND: It sure did.

KING: Athletes are thanking us.

Earlier we showed you a clip of Joe Jackson. CNN has been unable to confirm the remarks Joe Jackson made about Omar and his alleged link to Michael Jackson. And so we just wanted to go on the record to tell you that we didn't confirm what he said. You have to assume that, anyway. I don't know what he's going to say.

Thanks, guys. I'm sure you'll be back.

It's time for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."