Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Larry King Live
Garrido Victim Speaks Out
Aired August 31, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, kidnapped nightmare exclusive -- a woman raped by the man who allegedly abducted a little girl 18 years ago is going to tell her shocking story.
Was a monster released from prison, free to walk the streets?
Wait until you hear what she has to say.
Plus, inside the house of horrors -- see where the child taken against her will grew up and raised two daughters. Those acquainted with them are here -- stunned by the strange and disturbing news.
And then, her stepfather, once a suspect, reveals how she's doing now.
Can her family really reunite?
Will she recover?
What happens next to the man all of America hates?
Right now on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening.
There are some late developments in the Philip Garrido kidnapping case tonight.
Let's go to CNN's Dan Simon in Antioch, California -- Dan, what's up?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Larry.
Authorities announcing tonight that cadaver dogs found a bone fragment on the property next to the Garrido house. Garrido, at one time, according to police, had access to that property. Again, they found this bone fragment. At this point, they're not sure if that fragment is from a human or an animal. They're going to be taking it to a lab for testing.
But we should keep in mind, authorities have said they're looking at Philip Garrido in connection with the murders of several prostitutes back in the 1990s.
The second thing we can report to you tonight is that local police confirming that they are also investigating Philip Garrido as a possible suspect in the kidnapping and abduction of two young girls here in California, those abductions taking place about 20 years ago. Their names -- the girls' names at the time, 13-year-old Ilene Misheloff. She was abducted while going to an ice skating lesson. And the other girl, 9-year-old Michaela Garecht, thrown into a car outside of a supermarket.
In the case of Micahlah Garerick (ph), police say that she bore a striking resemblance to Jaycee Dugard -- also having blonde hair and blue eyes. And what is also particularly striking about that case is the composite sketch of the suspect at the time also bore a striking resemblance to Philip Garrido.
So a lot going on, Larry. And, of course, we're keeping tabs on all of it.
Back to you.
KING: Thank you, Dan.
And we've got more going on right now.
With us right now is a brave, straight-talking survivor. Katherine Callaway Hall was kidnapped and raped by Philip Garrido in November of 1976 -- the same man now charged with the kidnapping, rape and imprisonment of Jaycee Lee Dugard.
Jim Hall, Katie's husband, is with her. And they've been married almost seven years. They live in Las Vegas.
How did you find out that the man who went to prison for this kidnapping raped you more -- how did you put the two together?
KATHERINE CALLAWAY HALL, VICTIM OF PHILIP GARRIDO: I actually heard it on CNN. I was coming downstairs to feed my dog and it was on the television. And I happened to walk in front of the television and heard the name.
KING: All you needed was a name?
CALLAWAY HALL: All I needed was a name.
KING: What went through you?
CALLAWAY HALL: I screamed. I started screaming, "Oh, my God, oh, my God, it's him. He's the one who kidnapped me." And I ran upstairs.
KING: Did you live in fear all these years?
CALLAWAY HALL: I did, absolutely.
KING: Now, he went to jail off what he did to you, didn't he?
CALLAWAY HALL: He did. He went to prison.
KING: For how long?
CALLAWAY HALL: For 11 years.
KING: When he got out, you were in fear that he'd come after you?
CALLAWAY HALL: I think he did approach me after he got out. I think he came to my game up in Lake Tahoe at Cesar's. He was -- he was just being paroled. He was in a halfway house. And I think he came up and approached me and in a threatening manner.
KING: What do you make of this whole story, before we get to your story, of keeping this girl and having children with her?
CALLAWAY HALL: Oh, I think it's horrible. I think it's horrifying, I don't -- but I don't doubt it. From this person, I don't doubt it at all.
KING: All right. Take us back.
How old were you when he grabbed you?
CALLAWAY HALL: Twenty-five.
KING: Where were you?
What happened?
CALLAWAY HALL: I was on my way to my boyfriend's house with dinner in my car. He asked me to stop at a grocery store and pick up some...
KING: Where was this?
CALLAWAY HALL: In South Lake Tahoe. And he asked me to stop at a grocery store and pick up some coffee. And so I did.
KING: Your boyfriend?
CALLAWAY HALL: Uh-huh. And I did. And as I came out of the grocery store and got in my car, Philip knocked on my window and said, you know, I can't seem to get my car to start. It's cold.
Do you think you could give me a ride?
You know, which way are you going?
And, of course, he was going to go anyway -- any way which way I was going. And so I did.
KING: Why did you let him in the car?
CALLAWAY HALL: I don't know. It was the worst decision I've ever made, I think. It truly was.
KING: What happened when he got in?
CALLAWAY HALL: When he got in, I filled his hands with a lot of food that I was -- that I had in the front seat anyway. I tried to engage him in...
KING: He was holding your food?
CALLAWAY HALL: He was. I tried to engage him in small conversation on the road -- on the trip. I tried to stay on the main street. And when I got ready to turn, he said, well, where I'm staying is right up the road here. And it was, again, on another main street that I turned. So I took him a little further up. And then he said well, it's just around this corner. And so, I said well, OK. And I just turned around the corner and pulled over and he slammed my head into the steering wheel and pulled out handcuffs. He took my keys out, threw them on the floor and pulled out handcuffs and handcuffed me and -- and said, "I just want a piece of ass. If you're -- if you be good, you won't get hurt."
KING: What did he do with the food?
CALLAWAY HALL: He put it on the floor, I guess. I don't know.
KING: All right.
CALLAWAY HALL: I was just...
KING: All right. Now, you're in a car and you're handcuffed.
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes.
KING: How does this happen?
How was he able to consummate this?
CALLAWAY HALL: Well, you mean, how was he able to handcuff me?
KING: Yes...
CALLAWAY HALL: He...
KING: No, rape you.
CALLAWAY HALL: Oh, well, he took me to a mini warehouse.
KING: Oh, he took you out of there.
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes. He -- he transferred me. After he handcuffed me, he transferred me into the passenger seat. He pulled a leather strap out of his hair and he tied my head to my knees.
KING: Nobody around?
CALLAWAY HALL: And my hands were handcuffed behind my back. He threw a coat over my head, so I was below visibility in the car. And he took me to a warehouse arena -- a mini warehouse in Reno (ph), in a very desolate area.
KING: Were you fearing for your life?
CALLAWAY HALL: I was. I thought I was dead.
KING: And then he, what, raped you repeatedly?
CALLAWAY HALL: Uh-huh. After he got me...
KING: How many hours were you his captive?
CALLAWAY HALL: Almost eight hours, I think.
KING: Did he have a knife or threaten you with any weapons?
CALLAWAY HALL: No, I didn't -- I never saw any weapon. I don't -- you know, most of the actual rape has just been totally blocked out of my head.
KING: Was it on the floor, on a bed?
CALLAWAY HALL: He had -- he had -- he took me to a mini warehouse. It was probably 6 by 12 -- you know, about the size of a very small one car garage. And that mini warehouse, the first three feet -- as you lifted the garage like door to it, the first three feet was stacked with boxes, like it was in storage, but that were half opened with china and stuff coming out.
And right behind them was a wall of carpet hanging from the ceiling. And with an opening at one end -- a small opening at one end. And carpeting is heavy. You know, rugs -- big rugs are heavy. And about a foot behind that was another wall of carpet with the opening at the other end and then another one behind that. It was like a maze.
And in the back part of the mini warehouse where he had me, he had -- he had it set up to keep someone for a while. He had a mattress...
KING: You're a pretty good observer, though.
You remember all this...
CALLAWAY HALL: Well, I only saw this on the way out and then I -- because I had to go back in and get dressed. So I...
KING: When...
CALLAWAY HALL: So I went in and out.
KING: You two are married seven years, right?
JIM HALL, KATIE HALL'S HUSBAND: Right.
KING: When you -- when he -- when she -- when you met her, Jim, did she tell you all about this?
HALL: Yes.
KING: So you knew this all along? HALL: I have, yes.
KING: That she had been -- how did that make you feel?
HALL: Oh...
KING: Did it affect you at all?
HALL: I don't know if -- you know, it was just something where you know what she went through and there's nothing you can do except support, be there for her.
KING: By the way, Kate has written an amazing article for us. Go to CNN.com/larryking, click on blog and read her incredible story.
More after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Katherine Callaway Hall and her husband Jim.
How long were you in his -- in his capture?
CALLAWAY HALL: Just about eight hours.
KING: Continuously raped all that time?
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes.
KING: Hurt -- did he hit you?
CALLAWAY HALL: He did not, but he -- I, you know, like I said, I've pretty much blocked out the rape part. And I tend to think he didn't hurt me, but I had bruises and scratches all over me. They took pictures at the hospital.
KING: How...
CALLAWAY HALL: I don't remember it, though.
KING: How did you get out?
CALLAWAY HALL: A policeman happened to save me.
KING: How?
CALLAWAY HALL: He came -- it was his beat. The mini warehouse area was his beat. And he happened to notice -- Philip had lost the key to the mini warehouse in my car. And he had jimmied the lock with my crow bar. And he had locked it from the inside. And so the policeman came around with a flashlight, shining his lar -- his light on each individual lock and saw that one was picked and he investigated. He banged on the door.
KING: And what did -- what -- did Philip answer the door? CALLAWAY HALL: Philip went out to answer the door and he came back in and he said it's the heat, am I going to have to tie you up or are you going to be good?
And I said no, I've been good. I've been good. Don't tie me up. And so he went back out with the receipt. And I sat there for a minute and I thought if there's a policeman out there, I have to try. I have to.
KING: What did you do?
CALLAWAY HALL: I went crashing through, over under the rugs, over the boxes, right out into the parking area where the policeman was completely naked.
KING: Whoa.
And the cop cap immediately what?
CALLAWAY HALL: He looked at me like I was crazy. And Philip looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, help me, help me, please.
And Philip said -- he said, what's going on?
And Philip said, this is just my girlfriend. We're just in there partying, you know, it's no big deal.
And I said no, I'm not. I'm not. You know, keep him away from me. And finally, the policeman said, go back in and get dressed, because it was November in Reno. I was freezing. There was snow on the ground, you know?
KING: You had no clothes on?
CALLAWAY HALL: I had no clothes on. So he let me go back in and get dressed. And as I was putting on my jeans, I had one shoe, one sock on and jeans on. That was it. Philip came back through. And the policeman let him come back through, out of his sight.
KING: Why?
CALLAWAY HALL: I thought, oh, my God, he's going to take me hostage. And he -- he came back to beg me not to turn him in. He said, please, please, don't turn me in. And I stayed out of his reach. I said OK, OK, I won't, and ran back out half naked now.
KING: And turned him in.
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes and turned him in.
KING: Now he went to jail for that, right?
CALLAWAY HALL: He did.
KING: Did you testify at his trial?
CALLAWAY HALL: I did. I did.
KING: Was that hard to do?
CALLAWAY HALL: It...
KING: I mean he's sitting there and you've got to get up in this...
CALLAWAY HALL: No. You know, I didn't look at him. It wasn't hard. I just got up and told my story. That's all.
KING: And he was sentenced to how long?
CALLAWAY HALL: He was sentenced to, if I remember, it was 50 to life on the rape and life on the kidnap.
KING: So he's in jail. You felt comfortable.
You go on with your life, right?
CALLAWAY HALL: Actually, yes, I never did quite feel comfortable. But I mean it takes a long time to overcome something like this.
KING: What prison was he in?
CALLAWAY HALL: You know...
KING: San Quentin?
CALLAWAY HALL: ...I think Leavenworth, but I'm not sure. It was...
KING: Oh, it was federal.
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes, it was federal and he ended in Lompoc.
KING: Oh, he transported you, right?
That's kidnapping.
CALLAWAY HALL: Right.
KING: That's federal.
CALLAWAY HALL: He ended up in Lompoc. I don't know where he was before that.
KING: How did you know he got out?
CALLAWAY HALL: Because I thought he approached me on my roulette wheel at work.
KING: So you thought he was out?
CALLAWAY HALL: I had no idea he was out. I wasn't expecting him to be out for at least -- up for parole for at least another six years. In fact, we had been told his projected release time was 2006 and...
KING: So when you saw him out, did you call people and say is he out?
CALLAWAY HALL: I did.
KING: And?
CALLAWAY HALL: Uh-huh. I -- I called my pit boss. Oh, well...
KING: In Vegas, where you work.
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes. And I had security card him. But he didn't -- it wasn't the right I.D. But that didn't surprise me, you know?
KING: But who told you, yes, that's him, he's out?
CALLAWAY HALL: I got on the phone on my breaks and started calling. I called Lompoc Penitentiary. They said he had been released to a hal -- to San Francisco City Jail pending parole. I called them. They said he was in an Oakland halfway house. I called them. They said here's his parole officer's number. So I made an appointment.
KING: And have you lived in fear ever since?
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes.
KING: How many years ago was that that he got out?
CALLAWAY HALL: He got out in -- in '88.
KING: So you've been living in fear now...
CALLAWAY HALL: Absolutely. Yes.
KING: ...21 years.
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes. And especially the first five years. I just -- I just knew he was -- he was hunting me. I just had the -- I just knew he was. I had...
HALL: You were still working in Tahoe, though, when he approached.
CALLAWAY HALL: When he got out.
HALL: Yes.
CALLAWAY HALL: I was in the same place, doing the same thing, under the same name. So I just decided to leave Tahoe and disappear.
KING: So you couldn't do any -- you didn't -- you really -- you couldn't Twitter, you couldn't put your Facebook or nothing, right? CALLAWAY HALL: Uh-uh. No.
HALL: She never has.
KING: Did you change your name at all?
CALLAWAY HALL: When I got married. Yes.
KING: Why is Katie speaking out?
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Jim just told me something interesting. He's told many of his friends to tune in tonight to this program, but didn't tell them why, right?
HALL: I didn't, no.
KING: So they are learning for the first time that your wife was previously kept and attacked for eight hours by this alleged kidnapper of this woman who had two girls with her?
HALL: That's correct. And my family didn't know, either. My two brothers and my sister did not know. And my father had a very small part in the story. But my sister didn't know, my brothers, they all...
KING: You have a son, don't you, Katherine?
CALLAWAY HALL: I do. Yes.
KING: You had him at the time of this, right?
CALLAWAY HALL: Uh-huh.
KING: How did he react to all of this?
CALLAWAY HALL: Well, he was very young. You know, he acted out by going to school and getting into fights and -- because he didn't know why mommy was crying all the time and...
KING: Did you eventually tell him the story?
CALLAWAY HALL: Well, he -- he knew it. He knew it as much as he could understand it at the different ages. You know, he's always known it, but he acted out in his own way.
KING: So you've lived with this all these years?
CALLAWAY HALL: Um-Hamas.
KING: And when he is out now, you're living in fear?
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes. KING: Daily?
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes. I try not to let it rule my life, but it's always under the -- just there under the surface.
KING: So, in a sense -- this is weird, but as weird as it is, this story, there's some relief for you.
CALLAWAY HALL: There's absolutely relief.
HALL: Yes.
CALLAWAY HALL: There's absolute relief.
KING: Does he...
HALL: She's free again.
CALLAWAY HALL: I can't (INAUDIBLE)...
KING: He's never going to bother you again.
HALL: That's right.
CALLAWAY HALL: And I can't even -- I haven't even begun to feel that -- that, you know, what that's going to mean to me because of all of the media coverage.
KING: It's a weight off of you.
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes.
KING: Why are you here tonight?
CALLAWAY HALL: Because I want to -- I want -- because I just want to claim my name back. I want to claim my identity. I want to -- I just want to be able to live out loud.
HALL: And we wanted to support Jaycee and her family so badly...
CALLAWAY HALL: Yes. I want to put this guy away.
HALL: ...with what they're going through and we thought...
KING: The victim.
HALL: ...the victim and her family and Carl and Terry and come out here and tell them how much we're behind them and with them. And she's got it open and say thank you, especially, to the two ladies who were the two officers at Berkeley.
KING: And we're going to have them later.
Have you talked to Carl?
CALLAWAY HALL: No, I haven't. HALL: No.
KING: Well, you're going to now.
CALLAWAY HALL: Oh, good.
KING: The stepfather is next.
Don't go away.
HALL: OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Do you love her?
CHRIS BROWN, SINGER: Definitely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't look good for the R&B star...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- alleged assault against girlfriend...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chris Brown being formally sentenced.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: When I look at it now it's just like I can't believe that -- that actually happened.
KING: What do you think caused you to be violent?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: I think you'll want to watch that Wednesday night.
All right Katie Hall and Jim Hall are right here with us.
Joining us from New York is Carl Probyn, the stepfather of Jaycee Dugard. He witnessed Jaycee's abduction in 1991 and for a time was a suspect in the case.
All right, Carl, what are -- what are your feelings as you watch and listen to Katie?
CARL PROBYN, JAYCEE DUGARD'S STEP DAD: I really feel sorry for her. I -- you know, I'm a victim myself, you know, being -- watching the kidnapping and everything. I know how she feels.
KING: All right, first, obviously, how is your step daughter doing?
PROBYN: She's doing good. You know, I don't get a report every day. I'm doing -- I've been gone for a week doing these shows and everything, you know. And she's doing good.
KING: Have you talked to her?
PROBYN: I have not.
KING: You have not talked to her?
PROBYN: No. She's with a group and they're taking care of her and they're getting adjusted. And my wife and daughter are up there. And it's going real slow. I mean, I don't need to be involved in this and disrupt anything.
KING: What does your wife tell you?
PROBYN: She's the happiest woman in the world.
KING: What does she tell you about how your step daughter is doing?
PROBYN: I'm kind of on the loop out here right now, because they don't want to tell me too much because I'm doing TV shows. And, you know, we really don't discuss it too much.
She says she's doing great. She said she looks really young for being 29 years old. She's -- she looks almost the same as when she was kidnapped. And she's healthy and she's smart, you know.
KING: What about her children?
PROBYN: They're OK. They're also smart. I don't know if they've -- what education they have or whatever, but she says they're -- they're smart. They're smart kids.
KING: Do you have any fear of the Stockholm Syndrome, which is the captor suddenly sides with who captor -- the person captured sides with the captor?
PROBYN: I'm sure it happened. I know Jaycee very well. She's a mellow person. She was just a sweet kid. She never got mad. She doesn't -- she's not angry, you know. If this was my daughter -- my other daughter, she wouldn't be here, because she'd be climbing that fence every day. But Jaycee adjusted to this. That's why she's alive.
So the same way she adjusted, I think she can get over this because she's going to -- it's going to be behind her. I think, you know, it may take years, but I think she's going to get over this.
KING: How long were you a suspect?
PROBYN: Well, I talked today -- I thought I was a suspect basically until Tuesday, when they found her. But I find out from the police that I was a suspect for basically 90 days.
KING: That's because you were the...
PROBYN: But nobody told me that.
KING: You were the one reporting her being missing, right?
PROBYN: I'm the stepfather. I reported it. I was the last person to see her. But nobody told me after 90 days that I was no longer a suspect.
KING: Do you live...
PROBYN: So these last 18 years, you know...
KING: OK. So -- this is interesting. Katie is living in fear for all these years once she finds out he's in prison. And you're living all these years as a suspect.
PROBYN: Well, sure. You know, I was the last one to see her. I mean nobody told me I wasn't a suspect. I wasn't worried. It didn't bother me. I just wanted to get Jaycee back. What they thought of me or did to me, it didn't matter. You know, my life was basically like -- like her, it was ruined. You know, my div -- I'm separated now. My marriage broke up. You know. It's just devastating. People can't understand it. Like now they say, well, when is Jaycee going to come and meet you and you do this?
This is going to take a long time. This is going to take years. Like she's still suffering, you can tell by looking at her.
KING: Yes.
Are you still suffering, Katie?
CALLAWAY HALL: No.
KING: No?
That's over?
CALLAWAY HALL: That's over. That's...
KING: So you're suffering was fear of him coming back at you?
How long did it take you to get over the rapes?
CALLAWAY HALL: It took -- it took me a good two years.
KING: Carl and Jaycee's mother went on "America's Most Wanted" back in 1991 to appeal for help.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED," 1991)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do feel she is alive. You know, I feel her in my heart. And that's what keeps me going.
PROBYN: And this was her whole goal from the very start. I mean we did interviews from day one and we've done them all the way through -- is to get her picture out there. We're -- this is our job right now is to get her picture out there and get these interviews to get her back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Carl, what do you make of the whole -- what do you make of this guy?
PROBYN: He's an animal. He just cares about himself. He doesn't care about anything else. He's ruined people's lives. And now he says his life has changed and he's happy and he's, you know, done all this for himself and he's, you know, a Christian and stuff.
But he's ruined a lot of people's lives. My whole family, my -- my sister, my mother, my brother passed away. He's affected all of our lives by being a victim here. He's destroyed a lot of lives.
KING: So how and why did Philip Garrido get out of prison?
Our next guest may have the answer.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A caller to our 911 dispatch offered that there were tents in the neighbor's backyard, that people were living in them and that there were young children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: It gets weirder and weirder.
Katie Hall and Jim Hall are with us here in L.A.
In New York is Carl Probyn, the stepfather of Jaycee Dugard.
And joining us now from Sacramento is Scott Kernan. Scott is undersecretary of operations, California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.
The obvious, Scott, why was Philip Garrido paroled?
SCOTT KERNAN, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS & REHABILITATION: Well, he had completed his sentence both with the Feds for the kidnapping charge. He was transferred to the Nevada Department of Corrections for the rape charge. He was released from that sentence and on our Interstate compact agreement, which is typical, he was transferred to California for his parole supervision.
KING: Was he, therefore, a good prisoner?
KERNAN: I don't know about his history while in the Feds or with Nevada. But I know while he was on parole, there was no history of violations. He was compliant with his terms of parole.
KING: In retrospect, obviously, he shouldn't have been paroled.
But are you saying there's no way he could not have -- that he had to be paroled?
KERNAN: I believe it was consistent with the law in Nevada and certainly our parole supervision. Nevada has lifetime parole for sex offenders. We do not. And so he would be on lifetime parole with the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.
KING: Would you change the law in any way based on this?
KERNAN: You know, this is obviously a very serious crime that was committed. I -- I'd leave that up to the lawmakers and the governor.
KING: What did the parole supervas -- supervision entail?
KERNAN: Regular visits to both his house and then the offender would have to report to the parole office, anti-narcotic testing and compliance with some parole programs.
KING: People went to his house and didn't find anything, based on all of the stuff we have seen?
KERNAN: You know, Larry, every report right now suggests that this was so well concealed that anybody just would not have been able to see it. I know that the parole agent involved in this case -- and the details are still being kept, just so that we don't in any way jeopardize the prosecution of this case. He acted with real due diligence.
I'm very proud of my parole officer in this case. The fact of the matter is the neighbors for 18 years didn't see it. Neighbors that actually had been in the backyard hadn't seen it. Of so, you know, it was significantly concealed.
KING: Kate, do you have any question, Katie, you want to ask Scott?
HALL: When Phillip was paroled, I made an appointment with --
KING: Right there.
HALL: I made an appointment with this parole officer at the time, and he told me -- he said that, what do you want me to tell you, that he's well? He's not. He's a sick puppy. We're sure he's going to do this again, but we're pretty sure it's not directed at you.
KERNAN: Well, there is no doubt that this monster had some significant mental health issues. And, you know, that's why he was on parole supervision for life.
KING: Carl, anything you want to ask Scott?
PROBYN: Yes, I heard he was back in prison in 1999 and served some more time. Is that true or not?
KERNAN: I believe that, no, not in '99. When he came to our parole supervision, he had no revocations. He was not returned to California prison at all.
KING: Based on all we have learned, Scott, what changes would you recommend in the system?
KERNAN: Well, I can tell you right now, Larry, that, we are doing everything we can to review the case and the circumstances, and see what policy changes might be necessary. The parole agent in this case did perform his duties appropriately. But we will, of course, take best lessons from this, and see if there's some policy changes that might be necessary.
But our focus right now is in the full prosecution -- with the other jurisdictions, to prosecute this parolee to the fullest extent to the law and make sure he doesn't see the light of day again.
KING: Thank you, Scott Kernan, undersecretary of operations, California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.
Two men who did business with Garrido, and the girls, tell us first-hand what they're like. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Katie, Jim and Carl remain here on LARRY KING LIVE. Joining us in Berkeley, California is Tim Allen. He did business with the alleged kidnapper for ten years, and saw the girls on a few occasions. Ben Daughdrill has done business with Philip Garrido for six years, met Jaycee, then known as Alyssa, several times.
Tim, what kind of business are you in? What did you have to do with them?
TIM ALLEN, MET PRESIDENT, EAST COUNTY GLASS & WINDOW: We're a glass and window contractor. We have a show room and warehouse located in Pittsburgh, California.
KING: And what did Garrido do for you?
ALLEN: We would do all of our printing supplies, envelopes, letterhead, business cards, anything we needed printed, coupons.
KING: And where did he do this? At his house?
ALLEN: Yes, he came in -- actually, it's probably been over ten years. He came in the mid '90s and solicited us with a flier. And the name of his company is Printing For Less. And he dropped off a flier and said that he could do some printing for us. So the next time we needed -- I think we started off with just business cards, where he came into the shop. We told him what we needed and he printed them up. Did a good job. His prices were good. We went ahead and paid him and picked up the materials.
He would always come to the shop to do that.
KING: And Ben, what kind of business did you do with him?
BEN DAUGHDRILL, OWNER, ENVIRO-HAUL: At one time, we had a hauling and demolition company. And the same sort of thing, coupons or fliers or brochures we would work up, or our new advertising idea we wanted to pursue. They would be the ones that would work up the artwork and get us proofs. And so we would go from there. And they would either deliver cards or we would pick them up, just depending on schedules.
KING: Ben, did you meet with then known as Alyssa, who we know now is Jaycee?
DAUGHDRILL: Yes, I did.
KING: What was she like?
DAUGHDRILL: Very polite and professional. Just a nice young lady.
KING: Did she do the printing?
DAUGHDRILL: You know, I got the impression that she was the -- she was the brains in the business. And I mean that in -- when you would call up to order something, it would be Phillip on the phone. And you would hear him talking to whom he called Alyssa. And he would -- he would basically confer what I would say to her, and she would send over a proof or correspondence with e-mail from her.
On several occasions, I talked with her, as well. And she -- I always got the impression that she was the one doing the design and the artwork.
KING: Tim, do you have any relationship with her?
ALLEN: No, I never met Alyssa. I just met his other two younger daughters, I guess her children.
KING: How old were they when you met them?
ALLEN: I'm thinking approximately -- my memory is vague -- but I think it was about 18 months ago to two years ago. He brought them in on two or three occasions. But the last time he brought them in it really sticks in my mind. He brought them in and just walked into my shop like, you know, he was picking up materials or delivering stuff. And he said, I want you to meet my daughters. And so I walked out from behind the counter and walked around to the front door there, where they are they were, and I shook hands with both of them, and he introduced them to me.
KING: How old did they seem to be?
ALLEN: One was about maybe eight or ten inches taller than the other one. I would guess to be about 11 and 14, something like that.
KING: Were they well-mannered, were they nice?
ALLEN: Yes, they were very, very shy. But we get children in the shop all of the time. Some are real wild and run around, and others are quiet and calm. And these two girls were very calm. They were very well-mannered. And they kind of just stayed right there by Phil's side. But they did stick out their hands. I shook their hand. And he introduced me. And it seemed like a normal situation.
KING: Carl, does it seem to you that your step daughter seemed to have completely adopted a new life?
PROBYN: She did. She did. Like I say, she was -- you have to know her personality. She was a very mellow kid. And this doesn't surprise me at all.
KING: How do you react, Katie?
HALL: To?
KING: What you're learning here?
HALL: I think it's horrible. And I think it's really sad, the poor little girl had to adapt to her environment. That was the only way she could survive.
KING: All those years, to totally adapt.
HALL: To totally adapt, yes. I'm sure they told her that her parents were dead and didn't want her.
KING: Ben, you must be totally shocked.
DAUGHDRILL: You know, I have to say I'm sorry this happened to her. And I really want her, Jaycee, to know that she should feel no shame in the way she acted or in the way things -- I've been asked a lot of things about, you know, why didn't she reach out to me, or why didn't she slip me a note, or why didn't she say something? But to her, that was normal. And as bad as it was, from our points looking in -- you know, I'm glad that she is back with her family.
KING: Tim, how do you feel?
ALLEN: I feel the same. Our hearts go out to the family. I mean, it's -- I mean, three young lives just ruined and thrown into chaos like this. It's terrible, terrible. And I'm hoping by people watching this show, and people that are interested in this case, that people can kind of understand that weird, strange things can happen like this. People can act one way in front of you, and a different way when they're not in front of you. And it's certainly opened my eyes up to the fact that there are some bad people out there. And I think maybe we're all a little naive, and we don't realize what can really be out there. And you have to maybe look for the signs a little more than we do.
DAUGHDRILL: Larry, can I say something?
KING: Yes, quickly, Ben.
DAUGHDRILL: I wanted to say real quick, I think there should be something in place to -- where someone like this couldn't be doing business. We had no idea who we were dealing with. There is no -- nothing in -- nothing in the laws or nothing that watches these people to where they shouldn't have a source of income that's not reported.
KING: Well-said.
DAUGHDRILL: We had no idea who we were dealing with.
KING: Tim Allen and Ben Daughdrill, thanks for joining us. Two women in Berkeley are responsible for cracking this case wide open. They are the heroines, and they knew something was wrong with Garrido. And they took action. And they're here in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. We'll be joined in a moment by officers Ally Jacobs and Lisa Campbell from the Berkeley Police force, up there in Berkeley, California. Katie, from what you've heard about this, the businessmen and the like, was Garrido two people? Was -- I mean --
HALL: Well, I only knew one person.
KING: To them, he's a normal businessman.
HALL: Yes, I only knew one person.
KING: Think back. When he asked for help with the car?
HALL: He seemed totally normal. He was dressed in a nice denim suit, with a brown turtle neck, which was the style in the '70s. He had his long hair pulled back in a pony tail. It was about my color. He didn't look like what you would think a rapist would look like. He looked normal.
KING: Carl, what do you make of this, as you look back and you hear from these people? You hear from the parole guy, from the two businessmen. What read do you get on this?
PROBYN: It just doesn't surprise me. What's funny, I was just thinking is, when I first met my wife, she was doing the same thing Jaycee was doing. She was in art design. She worked for a printing company. How crazy is this?
KING: The whole thing is almost -- isn't it, Katie, beyond belief?
HALL: It is. It truly is. I'm just so glad that he is going to be locked up now, forever.
KING: All those months you lived -- years you lived in fear. Every day, were you suspicious?
HALL: Every day -- I had to be. Every -- every day. Every phone call. Everybody I met. I just had to always be on guard. You know, I tried not to let it consume me, but it's always there.
KING: Did you have any hesitancy about marrying her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never, no. We were married after eight months.
KING: We'll take a break and come back with officers Jacobs and Campbell right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Joining us now in Berkeley, officers Ally Jacobs and Lisa Campbell. Officer Jacobs is police officer with the UC Berkeley Police. And Lisa Campbell is special events manager for the University of California at Berkeley.
OK, what happened, Ally? What happened when Garrido came up to you? What caused all this? What caused your suspicion?
ALLY JACOBS, UC BERKELEY POLICE: Actually, Garrido first encountered Lisa. So I'll let her tell you how it started.
KING: All right, Lisa, you go first.
LISA CAMPBELL, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY: Garrido came into our office looking to basically schedule an event with the UCPD, which is customary. Anybody on campus who wants to schedule an event has to come through UCPD to determine whether or not it's something the university wants to host or be responsible for. So that's how he first came to us.
KING: And?
CAMPBELL: When -- he came to us on Monday. And so Monday, I didn't have enough time to really talk to him. I had another appointment. But he entered my office and he had the girls with him. He was extremely passionate and animated about his message. And he really wanted to -- he was excited that he had a voice and that somebody was listening to him, actually.
The girls observed in the background. And so they drew attention because they were just -- they didn't fit in. The puzzle just didn't match. He was extremely animated. And they were not at all assuming. Extremely submissive, just pretty much in the backdrop, not acting like children that age.
So I wanted to address him, but I needed to get more time. So I asked him if he would be willing to come in the next day for an appointment to discuss the event.
KING: And he came back, right?
CAMPBELL: Yes.
KING: And he came back with his -- with three women now, right? Or four? Who came back with him?
CAMPBELL: No, when he came back on Tuesday, he came back with the same two girls.
KING: OK. Now what made you turn it over to the police?
CAMPBELL: Actually, we did a name check. And then Ally was able to determine that he had a criminal background with rape and kidnapping. And so after we talked to him for a while, we notified his -- Ally actually notified his parole officer.
KING: Ally, did you come over and make the arrest?
JACOBS: No. I didn't get to arrest him.
KING: Who did?
JACOBS: I'm not sure. Maybe the FBI. I don't know.
KING: Did you hold him? Did you ask him to remain there or did he go back home?
JACOBS: No, after we were talking with him, we just basically came to the conclusion that he was, you know, a little disturbed and had some maybe mental health issues at that point. There wasn't enough to hold him.
My main concern was for the two little girls that were with him. I could see no sign of abuse. But there was just something not right about them, that just kind of sparked our interest. Kind of a gut feeling, if you will.
And that's why I wanted to follow up with the parole officer, was to make sure that girls were OK. Maybe do a home visit.
KING: And now that you know what you know, Ally, what do you make of all this?
JACOBS: It's incredible, Larry. It's overwhelming. I'm so happy that these girls are back home safe, where they belong, and that this horrible event is over for them.
KING: Well, Lisa, you know, without both of you, it may never have come forth.
CAMPBELL: Well, we're just grateful that we were able to be in the place at the time and do the service that we did.
KING: We salute you both. And I know so does Katie, especially Katie, and Jim and Carl as well. Thank you both.
What's it like to get your child back after he's been kidnapped and held for years? Our next guests know and they will tell us about it. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Here in the studio with us now is Dr. Michelle Golland, clinical psychologist. We'll get her read on all this. But first, let's check in in St. Louis, Missouri with Pam and Craig Akers. You remember their son, Sean Hornbeck, was abducted when he was 11, held for four years. Pam, how's he doing?
PAM AKERS, MOTHER OF SEAN HORNBECK: Oh, he's doing just absolutely wonderful. He's turned 18. If you ever met him on the street and didn't know who he was, you would have never known what happened to him.
KING: What's he doing, Craig? Is he a senior in high school?
CRAIG AKERS, FATHER OF SEAN HORNBECK: He's a senior. He's going to graduate early. He needs two half credits to finish out his high school. He's working part time as a cashier, playing sports, dating girls, hanging out, having a great time.
KING: All right. You have noticed any major impact from what happened to him, Pam?
P. AKERS: No, actually, we haven't. I think it was just because of the good therapy that we got at the very beginning, and us able to work things out as a family, that I don't think he's going to have any problems.
KING: Doctor, first, what's your read on all this?
DR. MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I want to say two things. This story is so important. First, it's about those women officers who followed their intuition. We've got to meddle. We've got to be interested. If we're concerned, follow your gut and report it. Report again.
KING: Well said.
GOLLAND: That's one. And the second thing, and to you as well as Jaycee and her daughters, it's about courage and survival and resiliency. Because I think it's something that Carl said about Jaycee that's really true. She's alive because she was resilient. She, I'm sure, is coping with the Stockholm Syndrome.
KING: She may also totally like this guy?
GOLLAND: You have to. Stockholm Syndrome is a syndrome that concentration camp survivors have had, rape and torture victims have had. Your mind does it. It's not a choice. You don't choose to have Stockholm Syndrome. You go into a situation like that and you're -- our minds help us survive.
KING: Did your boy have that, Craig?
C. AKERS: You know, that's something that we talked about quite a bit. I really don't think it's necessarily Stockholm Syndrome. I think it's more of a child just getting to a place where they figure out what they have to do to survive. I believe survival mode kicks in. And they know if I do this, I won't die. And that's really what I believe it is.
GOLLAND: Yes, I mean it's only named that. You know, this group of behaviors that happened was only named Stockholm Syndrome because of a famous incident. But it's actually -- that's very true. We do that because we are given good things by our abuser, and that makes us hopeful.
KING: What tip would you have for a person being raped, Katie? Is there any tip other than submission?
HALL: Absolutely. I think every young girl is taught that as soon as they're able to even listen. You submit. Be submissive and you survive.
GOLLAND: Right. And then there are different moments, like for you where you took -- you ran when you could.
HALL: I did.
GOLLAND: She was also only in captivity for eight hours.
KING: She is totally nude, still runs out in the cold.
GOLLAND: Those are the critical moments. Once you've been in captivity for a length of time, even days, it's very hard.
KING: Carl, what it is like to live in existence as an accused?
PROBYN: It didn't really bother me. I knew it was coming. I'm the last person to see her and I'm a major player. I'm the step dad. It didn't really surprise me. I was prepared for it.
KING: It cost you your marriage. It cost a lot of your life, didn't it?
PROBYN: It did. What can you do? I mean, my wife is still upset, not so much about me being accused, just what happened to Jaycee. I mean, the first ten years, like I say, she didn't celebrate Christmas. When Jaycee was taken, she would take a week vacation and stay home. She was a basket case. On Jaycee's birthday, she would stay home a week.
It took about ten years to have -- they finally had a psychiatrist talk to her -- to have a closure, to go beyond and go on with her life.
KING: We'll be doing lots more on this. I'm sure Dr. Golland and others will be back. Dr. Golland, someone like this, do you have any idea how they got to be like this or what causes this?
GOLLAND: You know, he's a sociopath. And I am sure in his history there is probably intense abuse. Most people who get to this point, they're abusers. I want to make sure we realize there was also a woman involved in this kidnapping, the wife, Nancy. OK?
KING: What part did she play?
GOLLAND: That is extremely important. I've done a lot of stories on female sexual predators. It's very important that we don't make light of her role.
KING: Do you think she participated?
GOLLAND: Oh, I'm sure she participated in this. I'm sure of it.
KING: Thank you all. Katie, thank you for coming.
HALL: Thank you.
KING: Thanks, Jim, for being -- a great husband.
Now, Jim, all your friends know. You people out there that he told you to watch, now you watch. I'm sure we're going to do a lot more on this.
Chris Brown is here Wednesday night. And Anderson Cooper is here right now with "AC 360." Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks so much, Larry. Two breaking stories to tell you about tonight. The massive fire outside Los Angeles; the flames now threatening thousands of homes, and the mountain top where most of LA's TV and radio station broadcast.
Look at those images. We're live on the front lines throughout the hour.
We begin with breaking news in the case of Jaycee Dugard, who we ought to point out has yet to be seen since her 18-year captivity ended. Tonight, we are learning more about how she spent those years, outwardly normal, at some point to some people.
More chilling than that, the possibility there were others, girls who vanished and have never been found. Police now trying to connect at least two other cases to alleged captor Philip Garrido. Dan Simon has all the breaking news. Dan?
