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CNN Larry King Live

15-Year-Old Gang Raped; Wrong-Way Crash Tapes Released

Aired October 28, 2009 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the crime that has shocked the country. A 15-year-old girl is gang raped at a school dance as 20 people watch, take pictures, some join in. The horror continued for more than two hours and nobody stopped it. Not chaperones, not witnesses, not a single person tried to help. How is that possible?

And then, the just released 911 tapes from that wrong-way crash. What they revealed about the controversial tragedy that killed eight. Could police had been more wrong about what caused it?

Hear for yourself next on "Larry King Live."

Good evening. Incredible occurrences in Richmond, California.

With us is Lieutenant Mark Gagan. He's in Richmond of the Richmond Police Department.

Lieutenant, get us up to date. What happened here?

MARK GAGAN, LIEUTENANT, RICHMOND POLICE DEPARTMENT: Good evening, Larry. This is one of the most brutal crimes I've seen in my 15 years as cop.

On Saturday night, after a dance here on the Richmond campus, we responded and found our victim who was unconscious. The officers saw several people surrounding her and they fled as we approached. We caught one individual as the officers made contact with the victim, we found that she was unconscious and was stripped naked.

What we do know is that multiple suspects physically beat her, robbed her and sexually assaulted her. And, only a few hours ago was she released from the hospital.

In the last couple of days, we were able to piece together who was there when this -- go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Was she a student there at the school?

GAGAN: Yes, she was. She was here because there was a homecoming dance across the campus. What we know is that...

KING: OK, what have we learned?

GAGAN: She initially left the dance -- well, she left the dance and was walking along 21st Street when she came upon another classmate that she knew. She walked around the block and ended up going to a back alley here on the campus where there were several other individuals.

We know that they were hanging out. We don't know exactly what occurred, but another group of young men came. So, now we're looking at about 10 men with our victim. This is about 9:45. What occurs is, our victim is beaten, sexually assaulted and robbed.

And what's the most disturbing aspect of this is that several individuals came upon this while it was occurring. None of them helped the victim. None of them tried to stop the suspects, and in some cases, they participated in her assault. We know that the abuse went on for about two hours and only ended because people that had witnessed it were reminiscing about it a couple of blocks away. A third person heard them and notified us of what was going on.

KING: How many arrests have been made, Lieutenant?

GAGAN: We have five people in custody, and the DA just a few minutes ago filed on four of them. And we're very pleased. The juveniles that were arrested were ages 15, 16 and 17, they're being charged as adults. And the adult is looking at life in prison, and we feel like the DA is aggressively prosecuting this case.

KING: How many other suspects? Do you expect other arrests?

GAGAN: We do. Unfortunately, we think that there were more people back there, not only committing crimes and violating our victim, but also observing what was happening. So, this investigation is far from over. I know there are more people that will be arrested, and I also know that we need to interrogate and interview those who just witnessed this crime.

KING: Who was the adult?

GAGAN: His name is Manuel Ortega. He's a 19-year-old Richmond resident. He's currently in Martinez County Jail. He's being held on $1.2 million bail.

KING: He is not a student, I gather at the school, right?

GAGAN: No, he attended here years before and because he's an adult, he was just hanging out at the back of the campus.

KING: Do you know, Lieutenant, if any charges are going to be filed against those people who just watched?

GAGAN: Unfortunately, I don't know of any statute. We have not been able to arrest and prosecute any people that just watched. I think that that's one of the most disturbing aspects of this case. But in California, actually, it's a national law that the victim of the crime has to be 14 or under, and in this case, our victim is 15.

KING: How is she doing, by the way? GAGAN: She was released from hospital and her injuries are not life threatening so she will recover physically. I don't think there's any way to determine the emotional trauma that she suffered. This is a life-altering experience that she's gone through, and I believe that she's going to need a lot of help and support for a long time to try to put her life back together.

KING: Do we know, Lieutenant, if there was one or two instigators and then the rest sort of came aboard?

GAGAN: Well, the detectives have been able to piece who played the more significant roles in this case. That is an important point because in trying to determine who did what, you have to determine who was the ringleader, who were the followers and understand the mob mentality that took place. In doing that, it helps us to do our interviews and interrogations to break down those who committed lesser crimes. They're more likely to give the information against their co- defendants.

KING: Were the assailants all men or boys? Were there any females involved?

GAGAN: I don't have any information of any females being present or witnessing the crime.

KING: What is the $ 20,000 reward for?

GAGAN: We offer rewards in cases, mostly homicides, or other cases that really shake the community in an effort to get people to come forward. We need the people who witnessed this crime to come forward and tell us what they saw. We need people that had been hearing gossip and rumors to come in and fill in the blanks. And, the reward is one incentive to get people to cooperate with our investigation.

KING: Can you guess, Lieutenant, finally, why no one did anything?

GAGAN: No, I honestly don't. It's hard enough for me to even imagine how this crime began occurring with the active participants, but for somebody to be standing close enough to intervene and not, is one of the most disturbing things I've seen as a cop.

KING: Thank you, Lieutenant. You've been very cooperative. Thank you so much.

GAGAN: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Lt. Mark Gagan, Richmond Police. The school's superintendent joins us exclusively next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can still see the remnants of some crime scene tape. This is where the people involved would have gained access to this area. Normally, this fence right here is closed. We are told that everybody would have had to jump over this fence and this is where the alleged rape took place, back in this area where you see the picnic tables. The area has no lights. No surveillance cameras either. They've been ordered but not installed yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Joining us in Richmond is Bruce Harter, superintendent of the West Contra Costa Unified School District. In Los Angeles, with us here Dr. Michelle Golland, clinical psychologist, and in Boston, Jack McDevitt, associate dean in the College of Criminal Justice at Northeastern University, author of the book "Hate Crime: The Rising Tide of Bigotry and Bloodshed." Deepak Chopra, the spiritual teacher also on board. If he's not in this segment, he'll be with us later.

Bruce, how do you explain this? As superintendent of the school district, how do you explain this?

BRUCE HARTER, SUPERINTENDENT, WCCUSD, LOS ANGELES: There really isn't any way to explain it easily. It's the most devastating thing I've ever seen. It's the most heinous crime I've ever seen in the school, and like the police officer said, there really isn't any explanation for sort of the horrible nature of people gone wrong and no one doing anything about it.

KING: What about security? Was anybody patrolling outside, after all, it was a big event at the school?

HARTER: We had our homecoming dance. I'm right here at Richmond High, and the area that you saw earlier, it's quite a long ways from where the dance was, which was in the gym. So, while we had four uniformed police officers and a number of teachers and administrators who were both inside and outside, we didn't do a perimeter walk of the school. And, this is on the far side of the school at the perimeter.

KING: Are you hearing from a lot of parents who may be a little outraged at this?

HARTER: Parents are very upset about this. You know, this is every parent's worst nightmare. With two daughters myself, I can understand their feelings.

KING: Bruce, do you have a thought, we've been asking others, why people watched and did nothing?

HARTER: I really don't have any good understanding of that. You know, these things that are inexplicably evil that I don't understand.

KING: Yes, me either. Thanks, Bruce. Bruce Harter, superintendent of the West Contra Costa Unified School District.

Dr. Golland, what do you make of this?

DR. MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, I think there's a few things going on. The first one is what you were asking about, which is this idea of group think, and that's what really happens in a group mob situation like this, where everybody was looking to the other like, oh, is this -- I guess we're doing this. This is OK. No one's saying anything. And had one person stood up, had one person jumped in or said this isn't OK, it would have shifted the dynamic of that group very quickly.

KING: Jack McDevitt, what's your read?

JACK MCDEVITT, ASSOCIATE DEAN, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: Well, I fear that what this is something that urban communities have been dealing with for a while now. And that what we're seeing is that people won't call the police because of fear of retaliation, particularly young people, won't come forward and won't call the police because they're afraid of what's going to happen them.

So, they develop a culture that they're not going to report any crimes, even something as horrendous as this. And, it seems like this the worst case scenario that I've heard of, of this kind of we won't talk, we won't tell the police. They can't be trusted.

KING: Deepak, you're a renounced spiritual teacher. You believe in the goodness of man. What would have led kids to do this to another innocent kid, do it as a group?

DEEPAK CHOPRA, AUTHOR: Larry, there's an epidemic in our urban communities and amongst our young people and in schools of emotional dysfunction, emotional retardation, lack of emotional development, violence, and this is a rampant epidemic actually, and it goes back to emotional retardation as a child.

These people who are perpetrators of these crimes, they think this is normal because they have grown up in violent environments. Frequently, they have been emotionally abused themselves.

We have three brains. You know, we have the reptilian brain, which is this primitive behavior. We have a limbic brain which monitors and detects and regulates emotions, both ours and those of others, and then, we have a cortical brain, which is our rational brain. In this case, the reptilian brain took over because it was already dominating these people's psyche. And there is, as Dr. Golland said, something called group consciousness. You know, when a lot of people start doing that, it almost becomes contagious. The emotion contagiously spreads like an infection.

KING: Dr. Golland, what happened to compassion?

GOLLAND: You know, I think that was the other point that needs to be addressed here, is what are we doing in schools to teach young people conflict resolution, compassion, understanding so that somebody would have stood up to do the right thing. I mean I think our public schools and our schools can not only be about academic education, they have to be exactly what Deepak is saying. This is about emotional intelligence and educating and giving our children the tools in how to respond to situations like this.

KING: Jack, can we assume that this group, these are all a bunch of bad kids?

MCDEVITT: I don't know that we can assume that. I think that the trial and what goes on in the criminal justice system will assume that. But I do think that there's still a hope here in that what we can see is that if the students in the school, their peers, their friends, all stand up now and start to say, "This is wrong. We should have reported it and we're not going to tolerate it anymore," that's an incredibly powerful thing, if they hear that from their peers, their friends, all the folks who they respect. And they hear condemnation from that, that's going to have a longer lasting effect than some of the other solutions that have been suggested.

KING: We'll be back with more in a moment. What would you have done had you witnessed a gang rape or any crime? Go to CNN.com/larryking and tell us. Back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Jack McDevitt and Deepak will be back with us later. So one more question for Dr. Golland. Not one person in the crowd said, " Stop"?

GOLLAND: I know.

KING: Not one?

GOLLAND: Not one. Not one. And they left her there. You know, she wasn't even found until the rumors had started flying in the gymnasium and someone went out and checked.

KING: And you understand that, that no one yelled, "Stop?"

GOLLAND: You know, I don't understand it. I wouldn't have stood there. I think it's about what we teach children to do in situations like that. You know, I was taught, you respond. I've jumped in to fights when I was little.

KING: Sure.

GOLLAND: I mean, I did that because that's what I was taught to do. Was it safe? Maybe not. But did it stop a more dangerous situation? Completely.

KING: Thank you, Michelle.

Jack McDevitt and Deepak Chopra will be back with us later.

Is it against the law to witness a crime and not report it? The lieutenant said it's not against the law. Mark Geragos and Jeannine Pirro tell us what they think after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Two familiar and often desired guests, Mark Geragos, the defense attorney here in Los Angeles, Jeanine Pirro, the host of her own TV show and former district attorney who has prosecuted sex crimes, by the way.

All right, Mark, the lieutenant said you can't do anything about the bystanders. True?

MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, no, that's not necessarily true. I mean I think I -- Jeanine will jump up and down and, I think, for once agree with me. But if the bystanders are doing something to encourage this or they're doing something to stop somebody from preventing it, then there's definitely things...

KING: But just watching?

GERAGOS: There's a jury instruction in California that says mere presence is not enough. So mere presence is not enough, however, if somebody's taking film or somebody is exhorting them to do something, then you've got some issues.

KING: Jeanine, do you agree?

JEANINE PIRRO, HOST, "JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO": Yes, I do agree, Larry. As DA, I confronted some very difficult cases where the public was demanding that kids who were present when a young person died at an underage drinking party be held accountable because nobody called.

But here is the bottom line, in this country, there is basically no duty to report, no Good Samaritan law that some European countries have. But I think the most outrageous part of this is not just the continuation of the crime, but the filming of it. And what I would do as DA here is I would get every one of those kids who filmed this thing. If I can't get them for aiding and abetting and exhorting the criminals to continue to rape the victim, then I would get them for possession of child pornography and -- because if they did it on their cameras, you got child porn.

But I just want to say one thing, Larry, with respect to the therapists talking about these kids being raised in violent environments. It was almost a half a century ago that Kitty Genovese was stabbed while people pulled down their shades and pulled up their radios. It's 38 witnesses... KING: Nothing new.

GERAGOS: No. and what was the other one?

PIRRO: Something that's gone on forever. Yes?

GERAGOS: And then the other one, what, 20 years ago in Massachusetts, which was in the hall.

PIRRO: Right. And by the way, right here in Chicago, a 16-year- old honor student was beaten to death with a two-by-four by a bunch of kids. It happens all the time. We've got to change the laws.

GERAGOS: You know, there are some states that have, as opposed to Good Samaritan laws, Bad Samaritan laws. So, you know, California is not one of them although California does have this kind of peculiar, you know, if it's under 14 and you don't do something, you have a duty to report. But, you know, Jeanine's come up with one that's, as I would expect, very creative, which is child porn. But there are other ways that you can fashion liability here.

KING: Jeanine, can you force a witness to testify in a case like this?

PIRRO: No. You know what happens, Larry, they lawyer up and then we can't force them. But what we can do is we can say, "Look, we've got you on child porn. I checked out Facebook. You posted it. You showed your friends. I'm going to charge you with this. You may be considered a sex offender unless you cooperate in this investigation." There are ways to squeeze these kids.

And I'm impressed that the DA is prosecuting a 15-year-old as an adult. The DA is taking this seriously. And make no mistake, they'll be very creative and very, very strong here.

GERAGOS: But actually, I mean the DA is -- I mean by all accounts, this is not a soft touch. But here in California, that's mandatory, as an adult. I mean, it's a direct filing as an adult.

KING: How would you defend these kids?

GERAGOS: Well, a part of what you would -- I don't know the facts surrounding it. As usual, we speculate.

KING: It's all we know is all we know.

GERAGOS: Right. But if it's a gang initiation, if it was consensual, if was -- I mean, you've got all of those issues that come to play. And if you have a situation where she has a prior relationship with one or more of these people, I'm sure all of those things are going to come to play.

Whether that is the defense or whether or not arguably somebody makes -- takes the position that at least for defending the minors that it's consensual, and that that's only a stat rape, and that that's a misdemeanor and -- somewhere along those lines. But I mean there's all kinds of issues in this case.

KING: How do you explain it to yourself, Jeanine, this whole story?

PIRRO: You know, it's kind of like for all the years that I've been in law enforcement, it's kind of like man's inhumanity to man. I mean people lose their sensitivity. They lose their sense of humanity. They see someone who's a victim and they kind of get involved in this mob mentality and shame on them.

Shame on all of us for not having a law in this country that requires people when they see someone in a situation like this to at least report. I guarantee you just about everybody there had a cell phone. All they had was call 911. All they had to do was whisper somewhere that something was going on. But it's disappointing, Larry, but it happens and this is not the first nor will it be the last time.

KING: Well, what's your read, Mark?

GERAGOS: I don't know. Maybe I take a more optimistic view. I mean I like to look at this as kind of a, if it's true, and if we're getting the -- you know, if the story as told is true, then it's an exception. I mean, there's so many great stories about -- you know, CNN does their hero story and things like that. There are so many people that do such great things and that are Good Samaritans.

And, you know, we're living in the city here where the Night Stalker was run down in East L.A. and captured by citizens. And also, the Duggard story where you had some people who found them and took it upon themselves and did the right thing. So for every one of these stories, there's probably stories that are good.

KING: Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Jeanine. Of course, we'll be calling on you again probably in a couple days.

Mob mentality, where's it come from and are we all capable of some kind of frightening behavior? We'll talk about it after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: By the way, tomorrow night, the brilliant actor, Ed Norton, will be with us. And in a debate, Michael Moore will debate United States Senator John Russell of Wyoming, the subject, capitalism.

Back on this topic, here in Los Angeles, Dr. Daniel Amen, the psychiatrist, brain imaging specialist and medical director of the Amen Clinics. And returning in Boston, Jack McDevitt, associate dean of College of Criminal Justice at Northeastern; San Diego, Deepak Chopra, author of the new book, "Reinventing The Body, Resurrecting The Soul: How To Create a New You."

Dr. Amen, you do brain scans on criminals. What does brain scan tell you about something like this usually?

DR. DANIEL AMEN, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, we've didn't a couple hundred people who have committed violence crimes. And what we find as a group, they have lower overall activity in the front part of the brain, in the most human thoughtful part of the brain called the human cortex. In this crime, I read that even when they were interrogating, they showed no remorse, no empathy. That's part of the most human thoughtful part of brain. If it's broken, if it's damaged, for whatever reason, these people can do these things and actually not feel bad about it.

KING: No conscience? They don't have the conscience.

AMEN: Right, there's actually studies on people who have what we call anti-social personality distort, people who just don't seem to care about other people or rules. In one study from USC, they found they had 10 percent less volume in the front part of their brain. When your brain works right, you work right. When your brain is troubled, you have trouble in your life.

KING: Jack McDevitt, what do you make of that?

MCDEVITT: Well, I think that I'm not a psychiatrist, so I'm not exactly sure how the brain functions. I do know one of the areas I study is hate crime. And that's another group phenomenon, where individuals act as a group to attack somebody because of their difference. One of the things we find in that is people play different roles in events. There's a leader. There's a willing participant. There's an unwilling participant.

And then there's a hero. That's what we're talking about needing here. A hero is someone who steps up and says, I won't participate; I want you to stop. We didn't have one in this incident. I think what we need is programming to develop for young people that the hero role is the most important role, and empower them to step up and be the hero in these events, so they can step up and stop them.

I think that's the part that's missing in a whole lot of this.

KING: Deepak, do you believe the Dr. Amen, that he works with people, that the brain can pretell us about violence?

CHOPRA: I know Dr. Amen's work and I totally agree with him. Just like people with criminal behavior have low volume in their frontal cortex, people who actually experience love, compassion, kindness, joy at the success of other, profound peace, equanimity, actually grow their brains.

In fact, there are many research studies that have been done recently, Larry, that show amongst Buddhist monks, who meditate on these qualities, which are called divine qualities, their brains grow; they secrete peptides like oxytocin and Dopamine and serotonin and opiates, which happen to be anti-depressants, which enhance self- esteem.

But even more important, their immuno-modulators -- they modulate the activity of the immune system. So it's very important that we have this information that we teach our children skills in emotional and spiritual intelligence. We don't talk about this. This is very important. All the crimes occur because people are lacking in emotional intelligence, which means the ability to get in touch with your emotions, the ability to get in touch with other people's emotion, and the ability to manage relationships nonviolently.

KING: Do you agree, Dr. Amen?

AMEN: Oh, absolutely.

KING: The brain grows?

AMEN: In fact, we just published a study, in a medical journal, about what happens with very simple meditation exercise. It actually increases activity, just like Dr. Chopra was saying, in the front part of the brain. But one other thing we have to talk about in this crime is there was alcohol involved. And what alcohol does is it lowers overall brain function and really impairs judgment. We've scanned murderers, sober, but they committed their crimes when they were drunk. So we scanned them drunk, and what we see, when you're intoxicated, it just drops, the front part of your brain.

KING: Jack, I'll bet you'd agree with that, right?

MCDEVITT: Absolutely. And we see that, unfortunately, alcohol gets involved in lots of these different crimes. It makes it easier for these offenders to commit these crimes. And also when we interview the offenders, they don't see the victim as people. They don't see them as people with qualities. They depersonalize them. And that allows them to do some of the violence that they get involved with.

KING: We'll be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Deepak Chopra, where's the spirituality? Where is the compassion of those who just watched and did nothing?

CHOPRA: There were victims of emotional retardation. As I told you, Larry, we need to educate our children in skills of emotional intelligence. How do you get in touch with your own feelings? How do you experience empathy, compassion? There is now so much evidence that when we feel the suffering of others and when we want to alleviate it, it helps our well-being. It regulates our biological systems, what is called homiostatis.

So we remain healthy. As part of our health education, we have to now include education in emotional skills and spiritual skills. We have to start a program, because this is such an epidemic right now. And every so often, we have a program on your show because some crime has been committed by basically emotionally retarded children, growing up in emotionally retarded homes, and in emotionally retarded environments.

KING: What, Dr. Amen, do you think the brains of the onlooker would show us? The on looker who observes and who does nothing?

AMEN: Well, many people get frozen with anxiety. We call it frozen with fear. There's an area in the brain called the basal ganglia, and when there's too much adrenaline, some people, not everybody, but some people just get frozen, and they don't do anything.

I wrote an article for "Men's Health" called "The Biology of Bravery." Who runs toward a fire while most of us run away from the fire. So it really has to do with brain function. Some people in exciting, traumatic, adrenaline-filled situation will run toward it, and help a person like that. Most people, however, they get frozen with fear, and they don't do anything.

KING: And they're afraid?

AMEN: Absolutely. CHOPRA: Dr. Amen, isn't there a phenomenon called mirror neurons that, when you have a lot of people in the group and mob mentality, that people's neurons start to phase in frequency, lock in with each other? It's called mirror neurons?

AMEN: Yes. No, that is actually -- that's a brilliant idea. We have this very interesting system in our brain called mirror neurons. So if you yawned, all of a sudden, I'll yawn. When we're at a basketball game, and we see all the excitement, it's like we're actually living in that moment.

So those people who were laughing or who then participated, their brains actually played the movie when they were watching it as if they were there.

KING: Jack, what have you learned about -- and they just passed the law today, so it's very relevant, as is your book "Hate Crime." What have you learned about that kind of person who would kill someone just because they're gay?

MCDEVITT: I think what we've learned is that, as we've been hearing, they don't see these individuals as people. They don't see them as, in any way equivalent, to them. And that allows them to go ahead justify to themselves the violence.

They also have an ideology that says this country would be better off if some group wasn't here. So they feel very empowered to be able to try to act on that. And the final point about it that's really important, that ties back to this, is they believe that everybody shares their biases. They see themselves as heroic, and that they're acting on the biases. But think that everyone else shares them, and everyone is going to go ahead -- you know, in the book "The Turner Diaries," and when the Oklahoma City -- the Federal Building was bombed, they thought that was going to start a race war.

So they believe everybody shares their value. I think in this group, they were believing everybody in the group wasn't going to tell on them, and they were going to think this was an appropriate behavior. I think what we need to look for is to try to figure out how to send different messages. Go ahead.

KING: What do we know, Jack, about the rapists?

MCDEVITT: Well, I think what we know -- and we'll know more as this goes to trial. But what we know is that these are people who devalue women, who have no role -- don't understand role -- women as roles in this society. And that's a whole part of what we're seeing here. As well as the people who jumped in, and the people -- there was no empathy there for what the victim was going through. And that's -- it was a horrendous crime.

And the part that makes it so bad is that it lasted so long, you know. It's one thing to be in a crime that lasts for five minutes, people jump in, they hit someone and run away. But this went for hours.

KING: Thank you, all. Dr. Daniel Amen, we'll be having you back. Jack McDevitt, and, as always, Deepak Chopra.

The just released 911 tapes from that tragic wrong way crash. Hear them for yourself in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

KING: All in New York, our guests are Roseann Guzzo -- Roseann is the brother of Guy Bastardi and father of Michael Bastardi Sr. -- rather, her brother Guy and her father Michael were killed in that wrong way crash on the Taconic Parkway involving Diane Schuler. Also with us is Irving Anolik. He is the family attorney. Also in New York is Elizabeth Spratt, director of Westchester Department of Laboratories and Resource.

Roseann, it's been three months. This must be very difficult for you. Totally innocent people. How do you live with this?

ROSEANN GUZZO, BROTHER AND FATHER DIED IN CAR ACCIDENT: I take one day at a time. My family takes one day at a time. And we do what we have to do. But then, you know, we have those obstacles. Like the other day, if we see Dan Schuler camp coming out with nonsense. It's like putting us back three more steps. Take a step forward and then we go backwards.

KING: What nonsense?

GUZZO: The nonsense that Diane Schuler was not drunk and high that day. It's infuriating.

KING: Irving, who are you suing? Everybody's dead, Irving. What can you do?

IRVING ANOLIK, BASTARDI FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, you sue the estate of a dead person. So the estate of Diane Schuler would be sued. The owner of the car, which was owned by Mr. Hans (ph) -- that's Warren Hans would be sued. And also I was a little bit nonplused by the -- if I can mention it, on Oprah's program, where they overlooked an important aspect of the commission of this crime by the deceased. They said that alcohol was found in the car, but Mr. Dan Schuler then explained that they always have liquor in the car. They've had it for years.

What they overlooked, Larry, was that it was not their car. She was driving a car belonging to her brother. So why would their liquor be there, unless she put it there.

KING: Elizabeth, how do you explain what happened here? How does someone not realize they're driving the wrong way for two miles on a road? How do you not realize that unless you were drunk?

ELIZABETH SPRATT, DIRECTOR, WESTCHESTER DEPT. LABORATORIES AND RESEARCH: I think it was the combination of the liquor, as well as the marijuana, that they get into a level of not understanding what they're doing, and thinking they're doing the right thing. KING: Diane Schuler's husband, Daniel, was a guest on this program just last month. He responded to claims by the families of the victims of this crash, one of which we have with us now, in defense of his wife, saying she was not intoxicated. It was appalling and offensively hurtful to them. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL SCHULER, WIFE DIED IN CAR ACCIDENT: We all lost loved ones, and she wasn't drunk. It's a tragic accident.

KING: But they're saying that you're hurting them -- they're saying in a sense, Daniel, that by doing this for the press conference, then appearing here tonight, you're prolonging their agony.

SCHULER: Larry, if you lost a loved one, wouldn't you want to find out the truth what happened?

KING: Sure.

SCHULER: I know the truth what happened with my wife. She's not an alcoholic. She doesn't drink. She's an outstanding mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: It now appears there will be no criminal charges filed. Roseann, do you want a Grand Jury to investigate all of this? Who do you want to charge?

GUZZO: Who do I want to charge? I want a grand jury to find out the truth. Especially when Mr. Ruskin (ph) is telling the American public that there is so many witnesses out there that are clearing Diane Schuler. How do you oppose something like that, Larry? You have a grand jury convened. You get these witnesses in, and then they're under oath.

And I want to see how many of those 50 something odd people that will come on and tell us, you know, what they've told Mr. Ruskin.

ANOLIK: Larry, if I could interject.

KING: Go ahead, quickly.

ANOLIK: A grand jury has broader powers than just the police or the district attorney. A grand jury can subpoena people. They can even, under appropriate circumstances, confer immunity. We have to understand that there was a --

KING: To what result? what result are you looking for here? They're all dead.

ANOLIK: Well, no, Larry, there's a strong fragrance of criminality that pervades this whole case.

KING: Against who? She's dead. OK, she's a criminal. What are we going to do? She's dead.

ANOLIK: She's dead, but you have the Schuler -- Dan Schuler. You have Warren --

KING: What did he do?

ANOLIK: Dan Schuler may have been an accessory before the fact, by supplying her with the ingredients that caused this disaster. Remember this, the ingredients --

KING: I got it. All right. Let me get a break. We'll be right back with more. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ WILLIAM CAREY, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: The toxicology from that autopsy shows that Diane Schuler had a blood alcohol content of .19 percent. The legal limit for intoxication in New York State is .08 percent. Toxicology also reveals that Diane Schuler had a high level of THC. THC is the active ingredient contained in marijuana.

In conjunction with the collision reconstruction unit's detailed examination of the Schuler's van, investigators recovered a broken 1.75 liter bottle of vodka.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The Barbara law firm issued this statement today -- it's on behalf of the Schuler family. They wish to express "how deeply saddened they are for all the families that have suffered such great losses as a result of this tragedy, and that their prayers are with them."

Let's listen to another part of that 911 tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm trying to help a friend of mine. His sister took his girls camping. They're very young girls. The oldest is nine. The girl just called in distress. They said that the aunt is driving very erratically, we think she's sick. And we're trying to locate the kids. The best they could come up with is that they were on -- they were at the Terry Town Rest Center.

And my friend is like on his way up now, and he's looking for the GPS coordinate or something he can put in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are they coming from to?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're from -- coming from upstate New York and driving back to Queens, New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: Elizabeth, is the state trying to just put this away somewhere?

SPRATT: As far as the laboratory is concerned, we have completed all of our work and we're finished with this case, as we speak, because all of the analytical work is finished.

KING: And the results are, in a nutshell, what?

SPRATT: The results show that she had a 0.19 percent blood alcohol. The vitreous (INAUDIBLE) the fluid from the eye was even higher, which means she was at least that level at some point during her drinking. She also had a high level of THC, which is the active ingredient of marijuana. We know that she smoked recently because of the metabolite, or breakdown product, that we see in the blood showing us that it's very recent, meaning 15 minutes to an hour, depending on how strong the marijuana was, and when she smoked.

KING: Thank you for that. Roseann, what do you want? You can't get the assailant back. You're going to sue. You're suing civilly. What do you want now?

GUZZO: What do I want, Larry? All the money in the world won't bring back my father, my brother and my dear friend. OK? But I want justice. And you know what else, when I saw that little girl on Oprah crying the other day, I don't want to see anymore children being victims to drunk drivers. I think it's a horrible thing to see. So if my voice can be heard to stop this, if there's more laws that can be in place, I would like to see that.

KING: Well said. Irving, do you think you're going to get a grand jury investigation?

ANOLIK: Let me say this. We are at the very outset of this, before we knew anything about the case, three days after the crash, I made a statement and a demand to the district attorney of Westchester County that there was a strong fragrance of criminality, and I thought it's appropriate to convene and empanel a grand jury.

KING: I'm running out of time. The question is, do you think you're going to get a grand jury?

ANOLIK: I -- If necessary, I can go beyond the powers of the district attorney and appeal to the governor and the --

KING: I got you.

ANOLIK: There are avenues that can be taken.

KING: I'm out of time. We're going to stay on top of this. Thanks, Roseann, Irving and Elizabeth. We are not going to let this go away. WE thank you all very much for joining us.

Tomorrow -- don't forget, Ed Norton tomorrow night. And Michael Moore debates US Senator John Barrasso on capitalism. Right now, John King and "AC 360."